Chris M. Anderson tackles the rather large question of how we as a society go about talking about masculinity without shame.
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A question about “shaming” men. Ok – so this has been coming up a LOT lately, and I want to understand it. A fair number of people are calling us out lately for “shaming” men. I am putting the word in quotes because the word confuses me. And I’d like your help figuring it out.
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Lisa Hickey – aka the big cheese round these parts — posted an open question on the GMP writers Facebook page recently about whether people think GMP is a site that “shames” men and/or masculinity. (By the way, if you are a GMP contributor and you are not a part of that group – feel free to visit: Facebook Groups: GoodMenProjectWriters). Ultimately the major question that we seem to struggle with here is, “Is there actually something inherently wrong with men, and/or masculinity itself?”
There are two core attitudes at war in this debate. One side feels that masculinity has been given a bad rap and is out to “reclaim” it as it were. The other identifies masculinity with beer chugging, boob staring, and sexual obsessions that are inherently unhealthy and counter to what is required to building a just, civil, and respectful society.
Neither side is completely right, or completely wrong, in my opinion. Should a man feel guilty about lasciviously ogling pictures of bikini clad women (or rugged and half-clothed men if that’s your cup of tea)? No, but at the same time he shouldn’t allow that activity to dominate how he interacts with real people in the real world. I should not permit my lust to justify treating anyone (male or female) as nothing more than a sack of flesh that exists to satisfy my needs. The question ultimately comes down to whether there is such a thing as a socially responsible, sexually sensitive, and essentially masculine man? Or does a modern man have to trade in some part of their sexual appetite in order to be considered a “good” man?
Attempts to answer that question inevitably lead to a vicious paradox. Modern, liberal, and socially conscious people want a lifestyle that embraces a certain degree of sexual freedom and that shuns the Puritanical constraints of former times. Sexual liberation was supposed to free us from the degrading social norms that kept women in the kitchen and rewarded philandering and powerful men for being pigs. (We hate Don Draper.) But what has happened in the past 30 years? Some would say that we have regressed morally. And when you look at the shockingly high numbers of women and men that are victims of sexual violence, it can be hard to argue against that perspective. But is that really true? Are men behaving more badly than before? (We love Don Draper.)
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Men have evolved to be what we are—an often infuriating blend of lustful impulse and emotional sensitivity. Fostering a “healthier” masculinity starts with understanding that masculinity itself isn’t a bad thing, it is what we are.
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It’s a fairly common presumption that males are, by and large, easily distracted by anything that has to do with sex. Given the popularity of columns here at GMP that include “sex” in the title, and the profundity of boobs, butts, and cleavage surrounding us in all other forms of media, there seems little reason to debate the point. But does modern, stereotypical “male” media really reinforce and encourage dangerous and harmful kinds of sexist behavior in men (and accordingly permissive attitudes in women)? I’m somewhat dubious of that claim, especially when much of stereotypically “female” media is just as “sex” obsessed as their “male” media counterparts. Like it or not, we may simply be stuck with this paradox between sex and reason. Our sexuality is a primal, animalistic part of our selves, one that does not always play by the nice, rational rules that we want to establish for our society.
But this is not a satisfactory answer for those who earnestly believe that there are social ills that require fixing, and for whom outdated masculine norms and patriarchal social structure lie at the root of all wrong. There’s plenty of things that obviously cry out for change. I’m not at all saying that we have to tolerate sexual violence simply because we are not pure rational creatures. But neither can we expect that demonizing masculinity or male sexuality will improve the social condition and the behavior of men and boys en masse.
But that’s precisely the tact that many in the modern men’s movement have taken. In response to which, an increasingly loud and emphatic “Men’s Right’s Movement” (MRM) has come to the fore in an attempt to discredit what they see as an unwarranted attack on maleness. There are certainly justifiable objections to much of the “man-bashing” that many people see in the social changes made possible by the rise of modern feminist theory. To name one example, it’s virtually impossible in many communities for male survivors of sexual and domestic violence to get any assistance and protection at all. But GMP is not, and will never become, a bastion of Men’s Right’s theory in response. (For more info on the MRM and it’s more outrageous attitudes, see R. Tod Kelley’s piece recently published in the Daily Beast).
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Sadly, the one thing that unites both sides of the debate of whether men are inherently good or bad is that they usually turn to the rhetoric of shame and blame in an attempt to discredit their opponents. Anyone who uses shame as a tool for promoting social change profoundly misunderstands the destructive power of shame. Shame is a tool that bullies and predators use to shred the souls of their victims. How can any movement that seeks to lift people up justify methods that do nothing more than tear people down? Ultimately, I believe what we want to promote is healing, not harm. Is a drunken frat boy really going to change his ways because an “enlightened” soul has come to his campus to speak on the ills of modern masculinity? So long as the kegs are flowing at the tailgate parties, I doubt it very much. But more than that – why is it so hard to get some crusaders for sexual and social justice to see that that frat boy might himself be a victim who might be drinking to excess precisely because it is so hard for him to get the help that, were he a woman, might (and I stress might) be more readily supplied?
Men have evolved to be what we are—an often infuriating blend of lustful impulse and emotional sensitivity. Fostering a “healthier” masculinity starts with understanding that masculinity itself isn’t a bad thing, it is what we are. We should be finding better ways to hold men (and women) accountable for the harm they cause and reward them for the good they do, that’s ultimately what GMP and the discussions fostered here are working towards.
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Photo: bmente / flickr
On shaming men: Maybe it’s because I’m an old silverback who’s a couple decades past my “sensitive” male stage, but I just do not get the concept of being man-shamed by words on a website. When I was a child, shame was something given to me. Being Jewish, I knew it as guilt …. my Catholic friends knew it as sin. If we did something sufficiently wrong, shame on us… We felt bad. My shame was powerful and deeply personal — the seed of self-punishment that simulated morality until I learned about the golden rule and responsibility. Unfortunately those who… Read more »
Yes indeed, Jeff, I think you are right. At least in theory. “Actually, I don’t believe anyone is able to shame a man. (Only children can be forced to swallow that shit). But old shame can certainly be activated if you haven’t dealt with it.” True enough, but many of us unfortunately do not feel nearly mature (read: stable) enough to be completely impervious to tactics that worked on us when we were children. If you are, congratulations to you, but some of us are still struggling. You have it as a possible definition of manhood, and that is good,… Read more »
“I know how people and businesses may try to use shame as a way to manipulate you to their agenda. It usually doesn’t work. Why? Because, in reality, for most adults it activates anger instead.” Jeff Billig, I think you’re on to something very crucial here about the activation of anger- There’s a difference between pursuing a goal and pursuing a method – for some people, the supposed good or ‘goal’ is simply used to justify their particular choice of method after the fact. In essence, their method IS their goal; and the justification for their method of choice is just… Read more »
Well put. Seems everyone needs to be right. And no one needs it more than someone who feels they’ve been wronged — not only are they right but you’re wrong (shame on you). Vindictiveness and revenge are powerful stuff. Once they/you stop generalizing it, it’s functional. But when they/you can move beyond the righteous anger/fear entirely, life is good and all is possible… I tell myself.
Something else I’ve been meaning to say – and this one is positive this time, I promise. It’s a compliment sandwich in the truest sense, seeing as we name sandwiches by their filling 😉 You do have a good number of writers who approach troublesome issues like the Friend Zone / Nice Guys / PUA from a much better perspective. Instead of focusing on the manifestations of these behaviours that result in assholeish behaviour, they try and analyse what causes these behaviours. Funnily enough, the answer is a lot more complex than “oh well, they must just be privileged sexist… Read more »
Bringing sympathy, empathy and insight into the mix improves the quality of discussion on these topics no end, instead of immediately playing the misogynist/entitled/privileged/sexist flashcards straight off the bat. Speaking for myself, I think Noah Brand is singularly good at this sympathetic approach. Agreed. I think one thing that definintely contributes to the shaming of men (and other groups) is the mad rush to pull out the flash cards you mention. There are problems with the usage of those words: 1. They have SOME legitimate uses: Yes there is a such thing has hatred of women and there are way… Read more »
Precisely,. Danny. Those words I mentioned have now become a shaming language in their own right.
I think there’s a reason why two articles GMP posted recently struck me as not only unique, but positive. It’s because they took the same generalising “hey, you should probably do this” tone with women that is so often directed at men – and didn’t care too much about factoring all the relative experience of women. I think the reason why I am for this is because of how I relate to the current dialogue on gender issues. I get so tired of the constant accusations of misogyny over disagreements on how to approach equality, or after defending my own… Read more »
As far as I am aware on GMP shaming mostly does not take place by ideas but by the words they are put into. I get the vibe that those advice articles are usually written in earnest and with an idea of compassion and honest advice behind them, but they often SOUND differently. The FACTS are alright (or at least lend themselves to sensible, rational discussion), but the WORDS are frequently condescending, snidely, shaming, sarcastic, snarky, cynical or arrogant. It is not even entirely the GMP’s fault, because all throughout western culture it seems to be the custom to talk… Read more »
There’s a second possible reason too, which I put in a seperate post for fear of not having it “cleared” for publication. As far as I am aware, the GMP grew out of feminist circles and thinking and indeed has a feminist publisher. This puts in my mind a comparison with the vircorious party’s peace negotiation delegation after a major war. Say, for example, the French delegation at Versailles 1919: Those politicians kind of wanted to give the vanquished nations a break, help them rebuild in a new, peaceful way, take the militarism out of the system, pave the way… Read more »
That being said, there are extremely good articles here too. In fact I am often determined to hate an essay after seeing the title, but then find myself admitting that actually like it a lot.
For example, the recent piece https://goodmenproject.com/the-good-life/why-we-as-women-need-to-ease-up-on-men/ (Tamara Star) is a great example. And Noah Brand has lots of text which are truly excellent, e.g. https://goodmenproject.com/ethics-values/brand-men-must-be-needed-because-we-cant-be-wanted/
In other words, things are not so bad as they seem. There is hope. Strengthen the positive!
We like the same things here it would seem ^_^
I’m not on Facebook, but I’m glad that Lisa Hickey (aka “big cheese” at GMP) was open enough to post the question. Here’s my answer: Yes, there is definitely a culture of needlessly shaming men, and yes GMP has definitely drunk the kool-aid. And it’s not just the dear departed Hugo. It’s the unwarranted departure of Tom Matlack after criticism from some fairly rabid feminists (like Roseanne Barr) – something that reminds me more of a scene out of Animal House than anything else – and I read his recent interview in Buzzfeed. It’s articles that attempt to define standards… Read more »
I started posting here because by and large the articles here are of value to men having problems and this is one of very few places I saw this happening. Truthfully I don’t read the men shaming articles. I have enough of my own issues without taking on the entire male stereotype. I don’t rape women, hit them, abuse them, have a problem with them as my boss, with them earning more then I do or being more intelligent than I am and I don’t do these things to men either. I’m trying to make my own way in this… Read more »
One of the reasons I started posting here (and wrote a couple of articles here) is that I experienced a few of the “Why are your still beating your wife?” (exaggeration) articles, and wanted to respond. These were particularly strong in the days of Hugo, and usually had a chorus of female voices appended that said, “Yeah, why?” Such things as age differential dating, scoping women for their sexual attractiveness, and so on became fair game, somewhat unfairly, I believed. I thought, though, that the typical MRM approach (men suffer too, or even more) was wrong, and that we should… Read more »
I’m a little confused by the idea that men having sexual desire is inherently bad or something about which they should feel shame. We need to divorce the idea of masculinity/men from sex and recognize that both sexes experience desire–and that’s okay! Are we under the impression that women don’t shamelessly ogle men? Because… we do! I’m not convinced that silent ogling that doesn’t result in violence or hostile accosting of the ogled is a problem. Why should anyone–man or woman–feel badly about appreciating the physicality of another human being? No, we don’t want to value anyone solely on that… Read more »
Well, that definitely gets criticised here. A recent comment thread had some readers and contributors pushing a standard of “just don’t make her uncomfortable”.
The problem here being that “uncomfortable” is pretty subjective.
I doubt it very much. But more than that – why is it so hard to get some crusaders for sexual and social justice to see that that frat boy might himself be a victim who might be drinking to excess precisely because it is so hard for him to get the help that, were he a woman, might (and I stress might) be more readily supplied? I think this is a core question. A lot of the “changes” and “challenges” put towards those frat boy are usually based on the presumption that he just embraced a masculinity that thinks… Read more »
“Why is it so hard to see that the frat boy might himself be a victim who might be drinking excess precisely because it is hard for him to get help…” That sentence right there is what I love about about the controversial back and forth that goes on at this site…Love Lisa Hickey! (Enjoy the ING Marathon!)….Over the decades, I (and my husband) have befriended such “frat boys”…but ultimately, it is true…you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink….certain people hold certain attitudes and you cannot change that…all you can do is walk away… Read more »
“Why is it so hard to see that the frat boy might himself be a victim who might be drinking excess precisely because it is hard for him to get help…”
Because he’s a white man, and everyone knows that white men can NEVER be labeled a victim. Obviously! (read the above heavily drenched in sarcasm).
BTW , the friend in question is actually Asian…
@Iben, Hi Iben! I really do not know much about the MRM movement. People have indicated to me that it tends towards being rather misogynist in nature. This really hurts some of there valid points, especially how men are treated in the family court system. I never really embraced any of the ‘new’ man babble….etc. I always believed in treated people (men and women) with love, kindness, and compassion. Just being a very warm and friendly human being towards others. We Americans are rather shallow, both from a social consciousness level as well as intellectually. Hence, the fad culture here… Read more »
Hi Jules I hope you are well. And you are right. There must be a third way. But I do not understand what this article author means when he say: ✺”The question ultimately comes down to whether there is such a thing as a socially responsible, sexually sensitive, and essentially masculine man? Or does a modern man have to trade in some part of their sexual appetite in order to be considered a “good” man?”✺ If Steven that wrote the article called “Why Are Men so Obsessed With Sex?” Is right , then we can discuss how men express their… Read more »
Hi Christopher Thank’s for the link to this article http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/10/20/the-masculine-mystique-inside-the-men-s-rights-movement-mrm.html ✺”comes from the MRM belief that men are already largely slaves, even if they don’t know it yet About Hembling: When he’s accused of being overly paranoid for recommending that men secretly record phone conversations with anyone they are likely to have sex with…… Hembling says he would no longer bother to do so. “I don’t give a flying f**k about [it]” he writes “If I encounter a rape in progress, what am I going to do, stop it? No, I’m going to walk around it.” Other sites, such as… Read more »
Hello Iben, you said “Zed the Zen Priest, the MRM pioneer described by AV4M as “a warrior in the battle for sanity” …help me out here, can you direct me to this? Much appreciated, thanks
Iben, never mind, I found it and read Elams interview from 2010. Appears that Zen and Elam don’t exactly have a warm and fuzzy relationship. But one thing that I couldn’t find is where exactly Zen said what he did. Maybe you could help me out with that?
Hi Tom
Sorry , I can not tell you that. All I did was to copy and past quotes from the article in The Daily Beast . The author of the article will help you, I am sure.
I know many of the issues of MRA fight for needs to be discussed and taken seriously in society , but hate speak is not the way to create social change, unless you see terrorism as an ideal for change. And we have lots of terrorists in this world, some shoot girls in the head to make them shut up.
ok, but as a future advice, be careful in believing any info whos not possible to verify pronto. I am astonishing skeptical about this. I have never met a MRA who claims to kill all women, or let them die. Yes maybe in a ironical manner a la kill all men, from some feminist but no more. Its to easy to take few quotes out of context and use them as evidence that group X is evil. And this is hardly any news we see this malevolent behavior constantly in political debates, religious, social issues etc. So be careful, and… Read more »
This seems to be the main premise of a lot of the MRM. I am not convinced they hate women en masse. But I think they talk in no worse a way than feminists have over the years – and yet feminism is tolerated, while when the MRM engages in the same kinds of behaviours, it’s evidence that it is entirely corrupt and is an evil to be quashed. Sometimes this is intentional, to highlight double standards. I can recall Paul Elam on a few occasions posting “watch them take this bit out of context” before saying something particularly outrageous… Read more »
How about just kill off the cultural remnants of the victorian era’s cultural reformation of morality? That idea that women are inherently nicer,sweeter and more moral than men are in their basic natures…….It boxes in both men and women, women get the polar opposites of the “good” girl or the fallen woman, men get the manly uncaring role or the polar opposite of questioning if they are really a man or some variant of pansy/wimp/mama’s boy/woman. Neither of those prejudices have a place in the modern world.
This may well be controversial, but I think it should be said: the Good Men Project is already a Men’s Rights Advocate platform (an MRA) in the term’s most basic definition. I’ve read numerous articles now that more or less line up with some of the same ideologies as MRMs by advocating rights for fathers or men in general, or criticizing how many feminist organizations have taken up the matter (like shared parenting, for one.) The problem is that MRM / MRA is a tainted label, similar to how many view the name ‘Feminism’ itself. Both can mean very different… Read more »