.
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When Robyn heard homophobic comments as a child, she had no idea how her grandmother would react when she eventually came out as trans as an adult. Similarly, Courtney wasn’t sure if he would be accepted for being gay after his father made a disparaging offhand remark about two men kissing in a music video. Would they be accepted? Or would their fears be proven true?
In this episode, Phil and Alex discuss Robyn and Courtney’s coming out stories, share their own coming out stories, and the importance of allies speaking up when they hear homophobic or transphobic remarks.
Transcript provided by YouTube:
00:02
[Music]
00:09
hey this is phil aka corrine
00:11
and i’m alex berg and you’re listening
00:13
to the i’m from driftwood podcast
00:18
our first story is from robin a trans
00:21
woman whose coming out story had a
00:22
surprise ending
00:24
in 1996 my mother died of a car accident
00:28
i had no parental figure really around
00:31
because my father
00:32
went into like a depression and he was
00:34
never home
00:35
and he was always out drinking we had
00:38
invited guys over and like have dress-up
00:41
parties
00:42
and that’s where i discovered my
00:44
sexuality people in my family would
00:46
obviously talk a lot of things about us
00:49
like oh
00:50
we’re and this and that so my
00:53
grandmother was
00:54
definitely not one to have it being that
00:57
her daughter died
00:58
and she wanted to be that close parental
01:01
figure
01:02
so she definitely didn’t take that lying
01:04
down she would have arguments with my
01:06
auntie
01:07
and their whole family about
01:10
how you know she should leave us alone
01:12
and we’re just kids and blah blah blah
01:14
because of all those things she was
01:16
telling my uncles that how
01:18
make sure that we like girls and we have
01:21
girlfriends it made me
01:23
feel like bad inside like
01:27
you know if i were to come out to her or
01:30
say anything about these feelings
01:32
it wouldn’t have been accepted after i
01:36
graduated high school
01:38
and i went through like figuring out who
01:41
i am you know
01:42
at the time as when i graduated i was
01:46
thinking i was a gay male you know so
01:49
that’s how i identified and that’s how i
01:50
lived my life
01:52
about two years later i went back to
01:55
florida to visit
01:56
my family with my grandmother and my
01:59
auntie and stuff they all live over
02:00
there
02:01
so i went to visit them and it was more
02:05
like me being myself
02:06
now you know i had like a side shave and
02:08
i was dressing in tighter clothing
02:10
at that time it was like rihanna had the
02:12
side shave and all these
02:14
people were like wearing it so it was
02:16
like oh that’s
02:17
she’s like oh you’re in trend you know
02:19
wearing the tight clothes so i didn’t
02:21
really come out
02:22
to her i just kind of just lived my life
02:25
and was like this is who i am
02:27
but they could clearly see something
02:29
going on
02:30
so when i came back from the trip it was
02:33
a couple months later you know
02:35
i was dealing with these things
02:37
emotionally inside me
02:38
that i didn’t understand since i was
02:41
younger
02:42
i always had a feeling of like i’m not a
02:45
guy
02:45
i felt like a girl and
02:49
one other thing that cemented that in my
02:51
brain
02:52
was i saw a documentary on a trans woman
02:54
getting her bottom surgery
02:56
because i didn’t know something like
02:58
that was possible and when i saw that i
03:00
was like
03:01
that’s what i want that’s me i did
03:04
personal research on it
03:05
to figure out you know why am i feeling
03:08
this way why am i having anxiety why am
03:10
i having depression when i went to
03:13
the doctor or the therapist they just
03:15
kind of confirmed it to me
03:17
she just made sure i was not crazy
03:21
and make sure this is what i really
03:23
wanted to do and then
03:24
within the week you know i started
03:26
seeing my doctor
03:28
and starting my hormones and that was
03:31
the
03:31
best decision in my life this year 2019
03:36
my auntie was having a big 40th birthday
03:40
and she invited my brother and i and i
03:42
was very hesitant
03:44
about going because i knew if i went i
03:46
couldn’t
03:48
be something i’m not i had to go in
03:50
there and be who i truly
03:52
am the day before i was gonna leave
03:55
for my trip my friend she contacted me
03:58
and we were like hanging out you know
03:59
having a slice of pizza
04:01
and she was like what are you gonna do
04:04
what are you gonna wear
04:05
she was looking at me she’s like you’re
04:06
not gonna get your nails done
04:08
and stuff i’m like no that’s like too
04:10
much for me
04:11
she was like no you’re not going that
04:13
way you’re going to go and be who you
04:15
are and not be this little basic bitch
04:18
so i was like you know what you’re
04:20
paying for my nails
04:21
sure so we went and she got my nails
04:24
done this really
04:25
bright pink and sparkles and everything
04:28
i arrived to florida
04:31
and i tried my best to like hide my
04:34
nails like putting them in my pocket
04:36
whatever i had to do to
04:37
still be a little low-key the real
04:40
test came when it was the day of the
04:43
party
04:44
which was the next day after we arrived
04:47
and
04:48
yeah i started putting on my makeup and
04:51
i got dressed in this cute little pink
04:54
romper
04:55
i started getting the feelings of like
04:57
oh my god
04:58
i’m really doing this and i couldn’t
05:01
believe this was happening so i changed
05:03
into some basic
05:05
jeans and a t-shirt and i was like yeah
05:07
i’m ready for this party but then one of
05:09
my cousin
05:10
she was like what are you doing why are
05:13
you wearing that for
05:15
that’s it doesn’t look cute it’s not who
05:17
you are
05:18
so i changed my outfit and i
05:21
went into the party very not so
05:24
confident
05:25
but i kind of stood to myself and was
05:28
like helping out like making drinks and
05:29
stuff because the party was happening
05:31
outside and i was inside
05:33
so then my grandmother walks in the door
05:35
and she’s like what are you doing in
05:37
here and she just looks at me up and
05:38
down i’m like i’m just helping making
05:40
drinks she’s like come outside meet some
05:42
of her friends that i’ve known
05:44
since i was younger and they haven’t
05:46
seen me so i’m like
05:47
uh i’ll be there you know i’m helping to
05:50
make these drinks or whatever trying to
05:52
prolong it as much as i can at one point
05:54
i had my
05:55
cousin give me her jacket so i could
05:57
like cover myself up but then it was
05:59
florida so it’s mad hot so like
06:02
this jacket
06:02
my grandmother walks back in to the
06:06
kitchen area with her friend that she
06:09
wanted me to like
06:10
see and meet again so i saw the friend
06:13
and
06:14
she’s like you know giving me a hug and
06:16
everything i’m like yeah hello you know
06:18
i’ve i’ve changed a lot since the last
06:21
time we met
06:21
her friend was like you look very
06:24
beautiful you look just like your mother
06:26
and it doesn’t matter how you are now
06:30
after my grandmother’s friend just
06:33
accepted me that in that way and just
06:35
told me
06:36
some positive things my grandmother and
06:39
i didn’t really speak about
06:41
my transition or anything like that it
06:44
was just an unspoken thing like
06:46
this is who you are and we’re just gonna
06:49
accept you and there’s
06:51
nothing we could do but love you even at
06:53
the party one of the guys were like
06:56
oh is this your granddaughter and she
06:58
even said yes
07:00
so that was a very proud moment just
07:03
like smiling like
07:04
yes i’m your granddaughter now so one of
07:07
the things i like about this story
07:09
is that we really get to hear what
07:10
happens over like what must be
07:12
a decade plus time period for robin just
07:15
because i think so often it does take us
07:17
that long to figure out who we are and
07:19
it’s not just like you wake up one
07:20
morning and this light bulb has gone off
07:22
you really have to sometimes put all of
07:24
these different pieces together so that
07:25
was something
07:26
that really resonated with me about
07:27
robin’s story
07:29
i also feel like sometimes you just
07:31
really need that one friend or person in
07:33
your life who is
07:34
your champion in a way and for robin
07:37
that was having this friend who was like
07:40
no you’re gonna go to this party as who
07:43
you are
07:44
you’re gonna go and be as loud and
07:47
authentic those are big things that
07:48
resonated for me like robin
07:50
i feel like when i came up to my mom she
07:54
wasn’t very happy she cried she was not
07:57
you know on board with it and over time
08:00
after meeting my partner you know i got
08:02
married
08:02
she started to have a bit of acceptance
08:05
for it
08:05
but it wasn’t a verbal acceptance it was
08:08
acceptance through the way she treated
08:09
my partner
08:10
and i think that’s this is something i’m
08:12
seeing in robin’s story with her
08:13
grandmother the grandmother’s reaction
08:15
of not reacting was more of the it was
08:18
the acceptance that
08:19
robin really needed and wanted this
08:21
brings us to another point that
08:23
resonated with me which is people don’t
08:24
have
08:25
the really specific kind of language
08:27
that we
08:28
who work on these things every single
08:30
day might understand
08:32
but they can show you that they are in
08:33
your corner with these other actions
08:36
robin said that it just became unspoken
08:38
as this is who she was
08:40
and it’s true it’s sometimes people may
08:42
not have the right words to say but
08:43
their actions really do show that
08:45
they’re there for you
08:46
and i just thought that this was like
08:47
such a good teachable moment for people
08:49
who might be listening
08:50
who are allies or who have a family
08:53
member or friend who has come
08:54
come out to them as lgbtq and they don’t
08:57
know what to say
08:58
but there are things that you can do
09:00
that really show you concretely accept
09:02
someone through your actions
09:03
and your ongoing commitment to the
09:05
relationship and to making them feel
09:07
accepted this makes me think of the next
09:08
story we’re going to hear about courtney
09:10
because sometimes the things your
09:12
relatives say can have a profound
09:14
impact on you i was a sophomore in high
09:17
school this is 2002
09:19
and my family and i were driving back
09:21
from my cousin’s
09:23
basketball game it was my father my mom
09:27
my aunt my brother and i and we were you
09:30
know
09:30
long car right so we’re listening to
09:32
music i’ve always been a fan of music so
09:35
i was the one in charge of you know
09:36
putting on what we were listening to
09:38
being 2002 we had christine aguilera’s
09:41
script album that just recently come out
09:43
and we’re listening to that
09:44
we got to one of the songs beautiful and
09:48
i just remember like this moment where
09:50
my dad
09:52
you know brought up how you know how
09:53
good of a singer she was and he really
09:55
liked the song
09:57
but he also referenced the video that
09:59
had come out a few weeks prior and i
10:01
guess he saw it
10:02
and in the video there happened to be
10:04
two guys kissing
10:05
in the video he was like yeah it was
10:07
really good song but
10:09
then she had two guys kissing in it yuck
10:12
and
10:13
there i am in the backseat just being
10:14
like oh
10:16
wait a minute what back then you know
10:20
being 15 years old and still not really
10:23
coming to terms with
10:24
you know my sexuality you know i really
10:27
didn’t speak up for myself then
10:28
so it kind of just made me be like oh
10:31
wait
10:32
is this will they be okay for me being
10:34
gay i don’t know
10:35
and then i remember being 26 and
10:39
i really just wanted to finally get it
10:42
out there and come out to my family
10:44
at this point i was out to all my
10:46
friends co-workers but
10:49
my immediate family were going to be the
10:50
last ones to know
10:52
so i um gathered them all together in a
10:55
room
10:56
i remember just being super nervous and
10:58
but just ready to
10:59
get it off my chest and i finally told
11:02
them like
11:03
hey i’m gay just want you guys to know
11:05
you know since you know
11:06
it’s you know i’m 26 years old and i
11:08
want to feel closer to you guys and this
11:11
is a huge part of my life they were like
11:13
yeah we already knew you haven’t brought
11:14
a girl home in 25 years my family were
11:17
like well why did you
11:18
wait so long to tell us and i looked at
11:20
my dad and then i explained to him i was
11:22
like yeah dad you made a remark about
11:24
how she had two guys in the video
11:26
kissing and
11:27
you said yuck he was like i don’t
11:30
remember
11:30
that happening and i was like yeah like
11:32
you probably didn’t mean anything
11:34
by it but for me it was my entire world
11:38
and you know that’s the reason why it
11:40
did take so long because i didn’t know
11:42
and there was a wasn’t too much
11:44
resistance but i think they just
11:46
slowly understood and they apologized
11:49
and were like
11:50
you know i’m sorry that you know we ever
11:53
made you
11:53
feel that way and you know it’s
11:57
i was one of those moments where i was
11:59
just finally happy
12:00
happy to get that off my chest and let
12:03
them know how i was feeling
12:05
fast forward a couple years it’s 2018
12:07
now
12:08
and i’m getting ready to see christine
12:10
aguilera for the second time i saw her
12:12
once back in 2007 but i was still in the
12:14
closet
12:15
and you know it’s just a different
12:18
experience when you’re
12:19
finally out and proud we go to atlantic
12:21
city to see christian aguilera
12:23
and i’m there with my boyfriend and
12:27
it’s one of these moments that i’m just
12:30
so excited for
12:31
she gets on stage to do her encore one
12:33
of the songs is beautiful
12:35
and everything just kind of came full
12:38
circle for me
12:39
i found it so interesting how someone
12:41
can say something that
12:43
seems so harmless so meaningless in so
12:46
many ways but it can have so
12:48
much of an impact on someone to the
12:50
point where his father
12:51
said something about the two guys
12:52
kissing in the video but didn’t even
12:54
remember saying it when courtney asked
12:55
him about it and it just
12:57
it blew my mind when you can think about
12:59
words and how
13:00
much of an impact they can have and it
13:02
could mean nothing to you
13:03
it made me think about two things which
13:06
is one
13:07
how the adults in our lives can
13:08
sometimes have this really
13:10
outsized impact on how we perceive
13:12
ourselves especially at such a young age
13:14
when you’re really impressionable
13:16
and if you want to please the adults in
13:18
your life
13:19
just how much what they say how much of
13:22
an impact it has and i think it
13:23
the point it really drives home is just
13:25
how careful
13:26
you need to be sometimes around lgbtq
13:29
young people
13:30
then the other thing was it made me
13:31
think about some of the other times in
13:33
my life when
13:34
people had made really casual homophobic
13:37
remarks
13:38
and how much shame that made me feel
13:41
i can remember once and this was in my
13:43
early 20s
13:44
so i wasn’t even that young i remember
13:46
being out with a group of friends and we
13:48
went to a bar
13:49
that after a certain time ended up
13:51
having a lesbian or queer women-centric
13:53
night
13:53
and i just remember as we were starting
13:55
to leave the bar women and queer folk
13:57
were coming in and this is before i was
13:59
out and i just remember
14:00
someone in this group making some casual
14:02
remark like oh it looks like it’s
14:04
turning into like lesbian night or
14:05
something like that
14:06
and just it really stuck with me because
14:08
it made me feel like oh
14:10
you think this is gross you think this
14:13
is weird
14:14
you think this is defective you think
14:16
this is something to make a mockery of
14:18
and it just made me
14:19
feel so much shame i’m sure that if i
14:22
brought it up with this group of people
14:24
today
14:24
that they would be mortified that they
14:26
had said something like that that had
14:28
that impact on me but it just
14:30
drove home the point that we really sit
14:32
with so many of those remarks and i feel
14:34
like sometimes
14:35
being a queer person it can be like
14:36
death by a thousand cuts because you
14:38
hear stuff like that
14:39
all the time and it’s true and and i
14:41
think it’s so interesting because
14:43
it’s hard sometimes to realize how it
14:46
can
14:46
be so damaging this made me think about
14:49
my own experiences with coming out and
14:50
for me it wasn’t like i was trying to be
14:52
courageous or brave or have this like
14:54
make this statement or have this amazing
14:56
moment for me when i was coming out as
14:58
bi and queer
14:59
i couldn’t not come out i could no
15:01
longer
15:02
not be myself i could no longer make
15:05
people
15:06
comfortable around me by staying silent
15:09
so
15:09
at the same time i do have a deep
15:12
admiration for people who are able to be
15:13
courageous and do that but i also
15:15
recognize that for so many of us
15:17
it’s something we must do and it’s not
15:20
necessarily that choice or you’re not
15:22
doing this calculus because you
15:23
eventually think you’re going to tell
15:24
your story in a public way you’re doing
15:26
it because
15:26
you have to and it’s because it’s who
15:28
you are you know in my story
15:30
the way i came out it was hard because i
15:31
felt like they were
15:33
expecting me to be one thing and i
15:35
couldn’t really be that thing anymore
15:37
and i had experience from them you know
15:39
this feeling of like them wanting me to
15:41
be this other thing and i just i got to
15:42
a point where i couldn’t do it anymore
15:43
either
15:44
if i had to do it again today i’d do it
15:45
very differently i came out i was very
15:47
angry at the time i was very much like
15:49
you either deal with this or you’re not
15:51
going to have me in your life and i
15:52
don’t think i’d have to go about it
15:54
that way today just being older and
15:56
being more aware of who i am and being
15:58
okay with being able to say who i am
16:00
without the anger i agree with you there
16:02
wasn’t any choice for me it was either i
16:04
was going to do it and
16:05
make myself happy or continue to make
16:07
them happy i’m constantly coming out to
16:09
people
16:09
i’ve always identified as bisexual but
16:11
because i am a femme
16:13
and because of all the stigma around
16:16
being bi i initially had that moment
16:18
where i had this really awkward
16:19
coming out experience with my parents
16:22
being really inarticulate about it
16:24
like just not doing a good job at all
16:26
because i was like you know a youth and
16:28
trying to figure it out in my early 20s
16:30
so i guess i wasn’t that much of a youth
16:31
but
16:32
i definitely didn’t have the same grasp
16:33
that i have on being able to describe
16:34
who i
16:35
am now and then because i very fem
16:38
presenting a lot of times in non-lgbtq
16:41
spaces people presume that i’m straight
16:43
or people often times just because of
16:45
bisexual erasure that exists
16:47
just will gloss over and say oh you’re
16:48
gay you’re a lesbian and while that
16:50
doesn’t necessarily
16:51
bother me i do find that i have to just
16:55
clarify that actually i’ve never
16:57
identified as a lesbian i’ve never
16:58
identified as gay and so it’s important
17:00
to me
17:01
to reflect the specificity of my
17:03
identity so that’s important too
17:05
i think that i have i want to give
17:06
myself space to
17:08
change and evolve in the future maybe
17:10
one day i will identify as gay maybe i
17:12
won’t i want to give myself the
17:13
flexibility right now i feel really
17:15
aligned with my femme identity maybe one
17:17
day i won’t and i just wish that
17:19
that was something i knew when i was
17:20
younger my mom
17:22
comes from a very traditional
17:25
working class south philly background i
17:27
think she had an expectation that i
17:29
would get married and have this very
17:30
heteronormative relationship
17:32
and so there’s a lot of fear i think
17:34
were wrapped up in having a queer kid
17:36
but she really worked on herself and i
17:38
think like so many of us she had a
17:39
really
17:40
narrow idea that if you are so
17:43
feminine and you present like me
17:46
you’re not queer which that’s just an
17:49
idea i think so many people have based
17:51
on
17:51
stereotypes that we see like i love that
17:53
at the end of robin’s story robin’s
17:54
grandma is just
17:55
like i love you that’s all that matters
17:58
and so that is something that’s very
17:59
similar between my mom as well
18:04
we’re pretty good now you know i
18:06
definitely feel better now that she
18:07
knows
18:08
how i am so we could facetime and i
18:10
don’t have to worry about scrambling to
18:12
take my makeup off and
18:14
doing my hair different i’m so glad now
18:16
that she’s in a space
18:17
where she could actually want to learn
18:20
more i’m
18:21
there to take her through that journey
18:23
and like show her that you know it’s
18:25
okay to
18:26
be a little different you know and stand
18:28
out
18:29
like there are many lgbt kids who are
18:31
you know kicked out of their house
18:33
and not accepted by their family and
18:36
i’ve heard those stories so
18:38
when i think about what i went through
18:40
through my transition
18:42
it makes me kind of appreciate my life
18:45
more that i’ve had people who
18:49
just respect who i am as long as you
18:52
respect me as a person
18:54
that’s all i care representation
18:56
definitely matters and
18:58
had this you know straight
19:01
woman not put these two gay guys in a
19:04
video kissing
19:05
i never would have seen that i never
19:06
would have felt included my dad
19:08
never would have seen it and we never
19:10
actually would have had that moment that
19:12
has led me to where i am today
19:14
and i think it’s important that you know
19:16
our allies
19:17
be aware of what you’re saying you know
19:19
that small
19:21
flipping comment could change their life
19:23
drastically
19:24
and i think it’s just important to be
19:26
aware and
19:27
also i was the only one in the car you
19:29
know it was you know my
19:30
my mom my brother and my aunt it’s also
19:32
important to you know
19:33
be an ally you know stand up if you hear
19:36
something that
19:36
isn’t right so yeah i definitely know
19:40
people who have been estranged from
19:42
their families because they were put
19:44
into a position
19:45
where they could either be out and
19:47
honest about who they were
19:49
or have their families i’m in this odd
19:52
privilege
19:52
of being able to hide the fact that i’m
19:56
queer
19:56
not everybody has that there are so many
19:58
different i think levels
20:00
to what this looks like with different
20:01
people in their families and even
20:03
in some ways even the idea of coming out
20:05
really varies
20:06
based on your identity and who you are
20:09
and your experiences and all of those
20:11
different factors about someone
20:12
people think you come out and that’s it
20:14
and i think that for some of us there’s
20:16
two maybe three maybe four it depends
20:19
sometimes these things are always
20:20
evolving so for me when i came out i
20:21
just came out as gay
20:23
and then later on many years later i
20:25
came out as gender non-performing
20:27
there was a second coming out for me you
20:28
know there was me coming out as a gay
20:30
person it was me coming out being queer
20:32
me coming out as being somebody who’s
20:34
you know masculine center
20:35
it was obviously very different but it
20:36
was hard you know it affected my
20:38
relationship i was in a long-term
20:39
partnership and it affected that
20:40
my mom still is like i have no idea
20:43
what’s happening here like are you gonna
20:44
grow a beard what’s gonna
20:45
something gonna happen like it’s like
20:47
anything is possible and i’m like yes
20:49
anything is possible
20:50
so if you see me you know buying beard
20:52
cream because i want a mushroom is my
20:54
beard
20:55
then maybe that’s gonna happen and i
20:57
need you to get on board
21:03
[Music]
21:06
the i’m from driftwood podcast is hosted
21:08
by phil aka corrine
21:10
and alex berg and is produced by andy
21:12
eagan thorpe the podcast is recorded as
21:14
part of i’m from driftwood a worldwide
21:17
non-profit lgbtqia plus story archive
21:20
and is funded in part from
21:22
td bank and heritage of pride new york
21:25
i’m from driftwood was created by nathan
21:26
manske to help queer and trans people
21:28
learn more about their community
21:30
help straight people learn more about
21:31
their neighbors and help everyone learn
21:33
more about themselves all through the
21:35
power of storytelling the ifd program
21:37
director is damien middelfelt the
21:39
stories you heard today are available in
21:40
their entirety
21:41
plus thousands more and i’m from
21:43
driftwood.org please follow us on
21:45
instagram
21:46
facebook and youtube and our score is
21:48
provided by elevate audio
21:50
be sure to subscribe to our podcast
21:52
wherever you get your podcast
21:54
thanks y’all for listening
22:01
you
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