Danielle Paradis is so tired of divisive debates that accomplish nothing but alienating men and women from one another.
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Most of the feminist-sphere had a collective groan when Munk debates announced a panel of four upper-middle class white ladies. There’s a certain irony to this debate. Every year the Munk debate is hosted by the University of Toronto Munk School. People buy tickets to see ‘important’ people debate ‘important’ topics. The line-up of speakers has included Henry Kissinger and Tony Blair in the past. These debates have also been criticised for their exclusion of women. To remedy this, the Munk School evidently decided that a panel of four women arguing about men will resolve this. This is an immediate failure of the Bechdel Test, and really points to the obliviousness of the organizers. I would never be interested in a panel of four men discussing the end of women and I am equally disinterested in a panel of women discussing the end of men.
Be it resolved men are obsolete. I say that to myself in a low and rumbly voice.
This whole event is about sitting in a room with famous people and listening to them talk over one another. It’s a blatant attempt to create pseudo-intellectual debate topics. It is real life click-bait. All around us we have an obvious publicity-rouser for Rosin and another annoying discussion by the White Feminist Industrial Complex. As Salon writer Roxane Gay said on Twitter “A savvy person might arrange a discussion rather than debate including women and men to talk about how far we’ve come and what’s left to do”. There’s no need to stop at just cis-men and cis-women either we have the potential to open up the discussion to the entire gender spectrum—something that people would actually like to be a part of rather than more divisive nonsense by four women laughably out-of-touch. You see even if we have the misguided notion that we despise one gender expression or another we’re all still here.
I’m watching ppl get tattooed on a timed reality TV competition. One got a tat on his butt crack. Still a better idea than that Munk Debate.
— Lauren Kelley (@lauren_kelley) September 17, 2013
I don’t want men to be over. I don’t want women to be over. While we probably still have some work to do around freeing ourselves of antiquated notions of what men do/ do not do, these four women talking isn’t going to accomplish anything. What they are trying to accomplish is a continual pitting of men and women against one another in a way that is more like a no-holds barred football match. What they do for seat sales, let’s not do in our real world.
Photo Credit: Munk Debates
I’ve always been told never let the perfect be the enemy of the good. This debate may not be perfect, but it does discuss some issue men are facing today. I think it’s important to discuss men’s issues so if you don’t think this is the proper way to go about it, create your conference, blog, chat room, etc. I don’t think trying to silence a discussion on men’s issues is the proper response.
[As with everything I write on this blog, please consider this me speaking only for myself.] Thank God, it’s about time I was considered obsolete. Seriously. A lot of the best parts of life are quite unnecessary. No one actually needs bacon or chocolate or wine, but thank goodness those ancient, unnecessary, obsolete things are still around. Do you really want a life in which you only experience things that are absolutely necessary? That’s pretty depressing. It’s about time society treated men as wonderful luxuries to be appreciated, instead of necessary instruments. It’s about time we got beyond valuing men… Read more »
I am going to be really honest here, I don’t understand what people are arguing about. Obviously men still exist and 49% of the future population will be men. Was there a plan to exterminate men that I missed? As far as us being needed: Of course all of us are needed and none of us is indispensable. This is true of all humans regardless of gender. Do we as men really think so little of ourselves that we honestly believe women won’t be with us unless they need us? Women will stay with us for the same reason we… Read more »
The major effort to fix inequality for women may lead to them going too far ahead because of a lack of focus on ensuring the men were taken care of as well. It already happened in schools and in some areas young women apparently are outearning men when they’re single, no kids.
@ Pete Beisner
Your missing the point. It has to do with quality of life. It has to do with fulfillment. You say men still exist and they will. Men in prison still exist, have they achieved their greatest potential? The mistake is the same that every feminist makes. Let’s focus the argument on whether men are over and not let’s address the reasons why some people think that way.
I like the sentiment behind saying that everyone is needed, but the statement itself is not really true.
The opposite seems to be true. No single person is actually necessary. That goes for men, and that goes for women. No individual man is necessary, because no individual person is necessary. Some people would be sorely missed if they were gone, but no one is totally necessary. Of course society doesn’t need men, because society doesn’t need women either.
Personally, I think that they had this ‘Debate’ without any representation of a male voice or any male input at all speaks volumes as to whether men are in fact ‘relevent’ in modern society.
I think you’re putting the cart before the horse though. I don’t think they thought “let’s have a debate about whether men are redundant. Who shall we invite? Four women! Yeah, let’s do that; that’ll be ironic.”
No, they said “let’s have a debate between four women. Okay! What shall they discuss? Pfftt… er… Men? Are they like relevant or something?”
That’s what’s great about social and political issues–everyone’s an expert, regardless of whether they actually know anything (or have anything worthwhile to say). Modern, informal debates are easy and fun to organize because they require zero expertise or preparation–just find a few people eager to spout off about their personal opinions, and you’re all set.
Absolutely! How many times have you heard someone described as an ‘Expert’ on this or that subject, and their ‘Credentials’ are that they ‘Have a web page(which anyone can have)blog on this site or that and have a ‘shitload’ of Facebook or Twitter followers. In other words, they’re always ‘spouting off’ about something! I don’t know, maybe I’m too ‘old school’, but in my book that makes you a bore, not an ‘expert’!
“A savvy person might arrange a discussion rather than debate including women and men to talk about how far we’ve come and what’s left to do”.
I wonder how quickly the sides shift on the debate based on what the topic of discussion is about. Slut walk, why don’t they include the virgin shaming of men an obviously divisive event that wants to pit men and women against each other rather than looking for solutions.
Now see what you have chosen to do here, John? You’re seeing a binary argument and since you’re not seeing a direct attack on men here, you are bringing one in. Nice work. Way to keep the war going. Seriously, aren’t there places on the web where you can find the real war? Because what you’re doing here is bringing that divide binary in to a space where the rest of us are trying to work past it. You’re bringing it into a space where the author is arguing against the binary. How will the war end if you keep… Read more »
I think he actually brings up a good point rather than trying to create an attack angle.
We call for inclusive discussions but as soon as the topic changes to someone’s pet issues all bets are off.
And how are we going to have a discussion of men’s issues if you keep trying to silence men who actually speak up about their issues?
This “I won’t be silenced” frame around what constitutes a valid expression of men’s issues precludes the possibility of intentional nuance. If every time you have a discussion across race we go straight to a discussion of lychings, what will be created? There is intention behind what subjects are raised in a space where dialogue is being explored. You don’t come with the most divisive issues. You don’t hold all parties as responsible for the most grievous crimes, or you get nothing accomplished but more binary debate. When you speak into the space between men and women of good will,… Read more »
I have a bit of a response to that but it would take things further off topic than they are now. Do you have another way to be contacted?
Sure. mrkgreene at the place the love to call gee mail dot com
Give me a shout.
That’s weird I tried to email you but I guess I kept mistranslating.
“How will the war end if you keep entering the peace conferences hurling rhetorical binary bombs?”
Not really wading in here one way or another- but on a side note: Now that you mention it Mark, I’d love to have a whole bunch of stickers with an icon of a “rhetorical binary bomb” marked with circle and a big red line through them (either that, or t-shirt that says something like ‘Throw kisses, not rhetorical binary bombs’). I think there’s a cottage industry to be had there. 😉
Binary argument !!, are only a problem when the point being made is not pro feminism or women in general, that seems to be another way of sarcastically saying ” what about the menz “,, or men shouldn’t bring up there issues to strongly because it rocks the boat , disturbs the discussion, its no different then when boys play or talk rough !! Its not nice boys, instead concentrate on what men & women have in common ??? Just because the issues in gender debate are complex ,heated & often end up nowhere does not mean that men have… Read more »
“Just because the issues in gender debate are complex, heated & often end up nowhere does not mean that men have to tip toe around these issues or discussions.”
Point well taken.
Slut walk, why don’t they include the virgin shaming of men an obviously divisive event that wants to pit men and women against each other rather than looking for solutions.
In my eyes they don’t need to be inclusive of virgin shaming of men. As long as they aren’t trying to dismiss it or downplay it then I got no problem. (And as far as I can tell the Slut walks simply do not being up virgin shaming in any capacity. Neutral. I can live with that).
@ Danny Sure, but here’s the thing. Bring up a issue. Men are falling behind women in college admissions and degrees. Women are 57% of the undergraduates and receive 60% of the degrees. How is that by nature being divisive, which is what this article claims? It is not is this the end of men. It is is this the end of men because X, Y, and Z where X, Y, and Z are not in dispute. Instead of arguing that X + Y + Z the end of men, why can’t they just say that we should fix X,… Read more »
“The feminists never disappoint, but it seems to me that only one side wants to make this a divisive issue.” John. Seriously. Both sides have a long and bloody history of wanting to make this a divisive issue. Because this issue is interlinked with every other issue. College admissions? Really? Inside the US or globally? How about in countries where they shoot girls dead for going to school? How do you think their college admission numbers are looking? This is all about context. And all relative. Where you draw the lines defines who’s got the moral high ground. The fact… Read more »
Andrew Smiler just wrote an article where he sited numbers that show that men are not losing ground on college entrance, that more men go to college now that have in the past. It’s just that women have made a more significant jump. https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/andrew-smiler-is-vocational-training-the-magic-bullet-for-improving-boys-education-and-lives/ Now I haven’t checked out his sources but if that is true than the people who keep pulling this statistic out to show how men are “falling behind” are not telling the whole story and therefore may be acting divisively. If the goal is not to be divisive then how come they aren’t saying “while college… Read more »
@ Veronica Grace I understand what you’re saying. Maybe the phrasing could be better, but when I hear men are falling behind women, I don’t necessarily view that as a competition or race. It could be two people making a life journey with each other and one is not able to keep up. It could simply be a barometer. If men are not doing as well as women, it should be addressed. There was a discussion on a feminist friendly website (I won’t link to it as I don’t want to give them traffic) about the shrinking life expectancy gap.… Read more »
well I don’t know what they had going on, or to be totally fair how you expressed your thoughts and if they got them. But clearly there are groups on both sides that are divisive. and it is the opposite of helpful IMO.
On a side note I’m hoping that my husband will live as long as I do so I’m encouraged to hear that the age gap is closing.
In the 90’s there was a major push to help girls, problem is that they forgot to watch over the boys and so the girls overtook the boys. We need a similar push for both at the same time to keep em similar. There’s also a proven bias to deal with by female teachers especially in the U.K, I think also the U.S. Stereotypes of boys being worse behaved was influencing how teachers interacted with the boys, making some boys give up when dealing with a female teacher so their results lowered. There was also an issue with female teachers… Read more »
I’d be more comfortable if we didn’t just label the misandryist representives of feminism as “the feminists” because that is more divisive, it’s negating the good that some feminists have done, and it makes it an anti-feminist issue, rather than a pro-male issue. Misandryism existed before feminism did. I’m guessing whoever wrote “slugs and snails and puppydog tails” wasn’t a feminist, and quite possibly wasn’t even a woman. I think some feminists mistake misandryism for being an essential aspect of feminism, whereas insofar as most misandryistic memes are actually a product of the Patriarchy in the first place, some feminists… Read more »
The issue of the lack of male focus in feminism is probably largely to do with feminists being so damn busy with the problems women face that they need far more boots on the ground to deal with the male issues as well. Things that help men will probably come as a side-effect, vs direct action (such as helping male victims of dv after the females were helped). There are egalitarian feminists but the movement as a whole that I see is very much gynocentric (which is ok) as there are so many female issues that need to be fixed.… Read more »
As an organizer of Slut Walk you have to be very specific and short with your messaging. As it is the message will differ among participants. There is no slant towards shaming virgins the point of Slut Walk is that the label “slut” is arbitrarily applied to women and has been used to excuse sexual assault. As virgins and asexual people are also at risk of sexual violence there’s no shaming involved of anyone except people who sexually assault other people. In Edmonton we have men and women sexual assault survivors participating. It is different for every city.
And I am all for that. I was just addressing what John Anderson said about Slut Walk being inclusive of virgin shaming. As I said when it comes to virgin shaming that’s just something that Slut Walk doesn’t cover and I’m fine with that.
I was going to write a lengthy response but yeah basically it’s focus is on victim-blaming. I did focus last year on specific ways men face victim-blaming in my interviews, but you have a brief window of talking time so honestly not everything can be fit in. Also a lot of survivors attend the walk and I think it would be poor form to lecture them on any topic.
Hey you do plenty. Can’t expect every warrior to fight every battle. And just to be clear when talking about virgin shaming I’m talking about John said below:I think you misunderstand virgin shaming. Virgin shaming is the belief that a man’s masculinity is defined by the number of women he has slept with so that a virgin or near virgin is considered unmasculine. While virgin shaming can be used as a tool to victim blame what I was saying is that it’s hard to fit all that stuff in as you say. (By a similar token I wouldn’t expect a… Read more »
@ Danny and Danielle You’re missing my point entirely. It’s not an indictment of slut walk or at least all slut walks. There are some I will not support and I’ll explain later. My comment as applied to the post is that the post says this discussion won’t accomplish anything and it’s goal is to simply be divisive for financial gain. “these four women talking isn’t going to accomplish anything. What they are trying to accomplish is a continual pitting of men and women against one another in a way that is more like a no-holds barred football match. What… Read more »
To be clear slut walks or any other program that re-enforces the male perpetrator / female victim dynamic, serve to silence male victims by marginalizing them. I’ve spoken with male survivors who told me that they’ve called victim assistance lines only to be told that they don’t serve men. I made the mistake of accepting an open drink from an unknown woman at a bar. I don’t recall anything after that drink. I can’t even say whether I remember the drink being blue or I only think I do because my friends told me the drink was blue. I left… Read more »
Ill second that. Personally I avoid specific events or groups. Like slut walk (I have been invited, but I politely refused) or campaign for violence against women. Because they make the mistake to be divisive (male vs female rape/violence) becoming binary therefore wrong. There is nothing wrong in focusing on specific situations (i.e rape against women) but the mistake comes when it is made unique like only men rape or beat women. Instead teaching MEN not to rape, it should be teach PEOPLE not to rape. This failure to include other issues (without losing the principal goal) is what makes… Read more »
And that’s how slut walks can be divisive, but I guess that’s OK because it’s highlighting a “women’s issue”. You can’t be “divisive” when discussing men’s issues cause that’s just wrong.
@ Danielle Paradis
I think you misunderstand virgin shaming. Virgin shaming is the belief that a man’s masculinity is defined by the number of women he has slept with so that a virgin or near virgin is considered unmasculine.
How this contributes to sexual assault is two fold. First, men who fear virgin shaming may be more willing to push a woman’s boundaries. Second, men who are afraid of virgin shaming may find it more difficult to report or seek assistance for their own sexual assaults by women.
True, but I get what Danielle is talking about. It’s not broadly “slut-shaming” as in shaming women for promiscuity (which might be comparable to virgin-shaming) that the walk is about, but specifically the victim blaming with regards to sexual assault. Not that there isn’t a related male issue with regards to that; where sexual assaults on men are not taken seriously because “the guy just don’t know when he’s lucky”, but I don’t see how you’d incorporate it.
Also, I’m sorry but this was reducing me to giggles every time I thought about it – you’d never get men doing a “virgin-walk”! Can you imagine? “Yeah, some of us haven’t got laid in years, some of us haven’t got laid at all. And we’re proud!” “So this is a personal decision!” “To do this walk. Yeah, we decided we shouldn’t be ashamed…” “No, no, the not getting laid thing? A personal decision?” “Well for one or two of us maybe… no… not really, just… haven’t really clicked…erm…” “So really, you’re just marching…” “yeah, to show we’re proud…” “…of… Read more »
It seems to me that a parade is exactly what is needed. And some celebrities to come out as having been virgins until some supposedly late age. One area that I think makes a difference in all of this is that women seem more often to be willing to share the really painful things. Men as you put it refuse to let on when they have suffered. It doesn’t mean it’s ok to disregard men’s suffering, but it does make it less accessible to people. If more men would come out and put real faces and stories on abuse and… Read more »
I’m not entirely sure virgin-shaming would tie in with slutwalk though. It’s an important thing to remove but might need to be it’s own entity instead.
Oh absolutely. I did not picture them together. That seems more like a bad joke than a good idea.
The only person who comes to mind is Lolo Jones, but she hasn’t kept it a secret and 31 doesn’t seem “late enough.”
Then there is Tim Gunn from “Project Runway” who shocked so many people when he said he has been celibate for 29 years. But I guess he would have to arrange the “decades dry spell walk” instead of a “virgin walk.”
@ Danielle Paradis One last thing about slut walk and maybe I can explain it in feminists terms as well as a non-feminist can. When I’ve heard feminists discuss privilege and how they deal with it. They tend to recognize that they’re also fallible people with wants. I’ve heard feminists say you can enjoy that movie or song whatever as long as you’re aware of your privilege. I’ll say the same thing to a slut walk organizer. It’s good to raise awareness of female victims. It’s good to teach men not to rape, but if you support this binary narrative,… Read more »
Isn’t Dowd’s tongue always in her cheek (even when she sleeps)?
Frankly, I’m open to a purely ornamental role.
Mark would be proud of Saliha introduced him as her “trophy husband” 😉
I had cards made.
I’m a hood ornament husband.
Honest question: Am I the only person who groans when someone uses language like “upper-middle class, cis-gendered, straight, able-bodied, 6’2″, 225 lbs. male”? It just gets on my nerves that people have such thought processes. Like to me it’s “doing the most”. like saying LOL in real life.
Is EVERYONE “upper-middle class?”
No, but it’s not the point
Nope, I’m pretty sure many upper-middle class, cis-gendered, straight, able-bodied people groan. Now I don’t know you, and I know that tone doesn’t come across when writing to people who don’t know you online so I am going to just say clearly I’m not making assumptions about you or judging you. I just want to mention that it has been my observation that when the labels associated with privilege and perceived privilege are often irritating to the people who wear them. I am not immune to this. It used to make me feel uncomfortable when people would point out white,… Read more »
It annoys me most when people get it wrong. Eg, male privilege, I sooooo often see women say men are privileged because they walk the streets safer…yet men are the most at risk of violence on the street, more so than women so they are LESS safer and it’s in fact a female privilege….
We could go back and forth all day comparing privilege and suffering. I don’t buy that women are privileged in the world as far as not being the victims of violence. But I don’t see any reason that we should be ignoring the issues that men and boys face. I don’t know that it’s helpful to anyone to try to compete about who has it worse. Let’s just work on making the whole system less screwed on a large scale and being the best kindest least violent people we can on the personal scale.
Well neither are really privileged, there are just areas that are more common to one vs the other. Thing is it’s utterly ridiculous when people try assert men’s privilege with regard to violence, violence targets men the most especially on the street, and even quite often in the home. One major difference is men are taught from day one to put their fear aside and bury it, never show it so women may get a very false impression that men walk around confident without being afraid of violence but really there are plenty of us who know we’re at risk,… Read more »
Could as easily be an aversion to identity politics, but easier to assume bad faith perhaps?
You mean inclusive language? No I don’t groan because I speak to people who often feel ignored or erased for being a non-conforming gender.
I can understand where that comes from because some of the very people that would use such language under the guise of being inclusive are some of the worst offenders of using it to be divisive which of course serves the purpose of maintaining the “us v them” stances.
Yes there are times when such language is called for and necessary. However its been so overused that its becomes a crutch for arguments that would otherwise not be able to stand on their own.
People certainly abuse language all the time like misusing the word rapist or rape for example. I heard a woman talk about how getting a new mortgage was like being raped. Probably not lady. That doesn’t mean I am going to stop trying to be inclusive. If people feel like rolling their eyes about it ::shrug::.
I’m not asking you to stop being inclusive and I don’t think spidaman3 was either.
Well rolling his eyes indicates annoyance. I was just explaining why I use the language I do. Not on the defense at all. 🙂
I think he is annoyed that people are being stereotyped into a box of white, straight, cisgender male, without actually seeing them as unique individuals who can actually have an opinion on something. There are plenty of people who can have a damn good opinion on matters that affect someone else, take a male gynecologist for example. I guarandamntee he has a stupidly higher level of knowledge of the mechanics and biology of the vagina, but lacks only the understanding of having one. There will be some people who’d dismiss his opinion completely because he lacks one, even if he… Read more »
There’s a weird thoroughly Western undercurrent here. It smacks of some gender version of keeping up with the Joneses. There’s literally this weird note of competition and consumerism. Who gets to buy the good stuff? Who gets to brag on their kids? Is the goal of any rational human, male or female, to win at the game that has been driving our previous generations all Mad Men crazy since the end of the second world war? “We don’t need men in order to have babies and BMW’s so now we’re finally FREE. AND THEREFORE men no longer serve any purpose?… Read more »
Oh yeah, it seems to me that all of the unhealthy dynamics support each other. The consumerism supports the gender stereotypes and vise versa.
The farther we get from buying into what culture/media sells and the closer we get to really seeing people as individuals instead of roles and stereotypes, the closer we get to the seeing the interdependent nature of life, which westerners seem to be especially removed from. Well, we perceive ourselves as removed from interdependence and need for others. It’s an illusion that I think causes great suffering.
@ Veronica Grace
Some have argued that wealth insulates people from reality. I don’t need to worry about global warming because I have an air conditioner. I don’t need to worry about pollution because I have an air purifier and water filter, etc.
Exactly!
A LOT of wealthy people live in coast lines which will be the FIRST to go when the sea levels rise. They should be moving out, or ensuring they buy in land with some height. Stronger cyclones/etc will push major storm surges through, coastlines will get hammered far more and add the rising sea level it will displace a huge amount of people.
Great piece.
But I confess, Mark, I’ve never heard a group of men saying they don’t need women, not even other gay men. I have, however, heard the “should we keep men around”-style observations from women, which always chills me, especially when I wonder if they have sons.
I have definitely heard men talk about that. Sometimes they throw in “except to f*%^” but even that is not always mentioned. Which is better I think. If you are going to hate a group of people I think the world will be better if you don’t have sex with them. Or parent them. Or make laws about them.
I’m sorry to hear that, Veronica. How ugly. For me, when I’ve heard women say those things, they don’t bother to throw in the “except to f*5^.” And I agree with you—I do hope they don’t have sex with them, or parent them, or make laws about them. Or teach them.
Yeah, there’s definitely a group of men declaring they are “done” with women. Perhaps their willingness to lump all women into some monolithic uniform entity has something to do with that. Cause all the women have left already, anyway. But these are fringe voices. What is more uniform and more ubiquitous is the general hue and cry validating the “battle of the sexes” pitting men against women and demanding that we all take sides. I’m with Dani on that. It’s bullshit. If for no other reason that no one can tell us what a women or man is. I defy… Read more »
That’s it: gender is just one attribute among a plethora of others, and doesn’t define anyone as a person – or certainly shouldn’t. I do however think that a lot of women who say they are done with men, or men that are done with women, say it as an offhand remark after a bad experience, like a hangover may prompt one to say they’re done with drinking! Yeah, right, until next Friday night, I’m guessing.
Well, saying you’re “done” with women isn’t the same thing as saying you don’t need them. I can definitely picture men saying they’re “done” with women. They never are, of course.
It’s also far different from the sex selective abortions some have advocated so as to be “done” with men.
Look into the MRM and how many of them say they’d never give a Western woman the time of day, because they’re too headstrong, too opinionated, etc. There’s this whole group of men who fetishize going to Asian/SE Asian and South Asian countries with the intention of finding a woman who “knows how to treat a man”.
IE Submissive.
(Not that all Asian or South Asian are that way, that’s the standard fetishization of them, however.)
Actually a lot of the men in the MRM of the kind you speak of aren’t exactly after a submissive, but after someone who RESPECTS THEM. If you ever read much of their statements, a lot will go on about how western women will take your money in a divorce, are unfair, rude, “bitches”, even abusive. It’s an ignorant view of western women but there are quite a lot of women (and men) who are narcissistic and very selfish, which is what many of the MRM guys are afraid of. I don’t think they realize that there are plenty of… Read more »
Archy,
Can you show us this part of the mrm that allegedly pedestalizes asian women?
I’ve only seen the odd comment here n there, they may not even be MRA’s. It’s never been something that was key to the MRM that I ever saw, just random people who may be MRA’s and probably the extreme minority.
“Look into the MRM and how many of them say they’d never give a Western woman the time of day, because they’re too headstrong, too opinionated, etc.” Btw, there is no shortage of women (and men) who think being a total asshole is just being “headstrong, opinionated”. It’s like some of the women that call themselves strong women, but really they’re just complete bitches who are selfish n narcissistic. So do these guys mean they don’t like a woman who has an opinion, even if she says it in a polite n decent manner (as we all should try aspire… Read more »
I can’t speak for the point these men were trying to make comparing western women-American?- to Asian women.I have dated both,more than once. I have had many Asian friends growing up as I do now.From that limited experience I can say that, culturally speaking,there are differences between western and eastern women and some similarities.It makes sense that one may find the values,mores and habits of one culture over another.I find nothing inherently wrong with that and it is quite normal among folks.After all there is no such thing as racial purity.People have switched cultures-still do- since early civilizations first sprang… Read more »
I can definitely picture men saying they’re “done” with women. They never are, of course. For the male persons who most vocally and overtly stated how they are “done” with female persons in internet forums and otherwise, that announcement is usually a gratuitous formality. They were probably not associating or fraternizing with any women in the first place. They do not have anything to be “done” with. It’s like a homeless person announcing that he is “done” with Mercedes even though he never drove a Mercedes in his life. At least, that’s how it is if Futrelle’s characterization of the… Read more »
Thing is some men are damn unfortunate to meet bad woman after bad woman. This may depend highly on socioeconomic areas for instance, where they hang out, etc. Took me a while to find women who DIDN’T want to bully me and treat me with respect. Highschool does a shitload of damage to many people too in this respect, I came out of highschool fearing beautiful women because they were often such absolute C&^%S (aussie version, not the crazy american version, which means extreme asshole) and it wasn’t until my early 20’s that I met some awesomesauce women who just… Read more »
Archy,
It troubles me when men or women don’t take responsibility for their own choices in relationships. Another way to say “meeting bad woman after bad woman” is “making bad decision after bad decision”. I know. I’ve made them myself.
I agree, though I think that there is a component of luck in that who you are born to is luck. We all have our dynamics to work out and we are responsible to work them out and make different decisions. We are all also responsible for our own actions and how we treat others. I would like there to be more focus on helping people think differently. We spend so much time focusing on individuals that it’s easy for people to say well my ex was just a *insert insult here* and then move on to “Well all *insert… Read more »
Indeed, too often people try to assign blame to victims. Is it really that hard to believe that some men get bad woman after bad woman through no real fault of their own, but there are just a lot of bad women where they are? People can mind their own business and still get bullied.
Thing is I could stop the male bullies quite easily, so I could avoid them more…but female bullies do it more subtly and in my experiences they acted as friends first and fucked with your mind more. Guys tended to be real upfront about it.
I talked to people who talked back to me, was it bad decisions? There exist people who prey on certain people, it’s probable that because I was a pushover I had a vulnerability which they saw and took advantage of. Bad decisions I had: Turning up to school. That was the sole of my bad decisions, or maybe it was getting fat? I would be in class being laughed at by girls using me as an insult to their friends where they’d say “he’s your bf” and laugh. I’d be called fat, ugly, I’d have my nipples twisted, have countless… Read more »
@ Mark Greene “If for no other reason that no one can tell us what a women or man is. I defy you to define a man and not have a man take issue with that definition, no matter what it is” So we finally agree on something. 🙂 I was trying to answer the question what principles are the MRM founded on and I’ve found the general consensus of one principle to be that masculinity is defined by each man individually. I do want to point out one thing. The author suggests that women should be included in the… Read more »
I was trying to answer the question what principles are the MRM founded on and I’ve found the general consensus of one principle to be that masculinity is defined by each man individually.
Righto.
Among MRAs there is encouragement for men to build up their masculinity and manhood as they see fit. Which beats the alternative of building up a masculinity and manhood that’s centered around women.
Of course there are those that define it in damaging ways but that doesn’t mean that the openess to explore it should be closed off.
Or if you like “the MRM is not a monolith.” 😉
Why, that’s crazy talk! (grin)
Danny, it’s ironic but if you go to ‘A voice for Men’ you’ll notice that half the featured writers are in fact women(some of who’ve published articles here) and they’re saying exactly what you’ve stated.
Yes. Even if you don’t agree with how they operate I think its clear that there is some attempt by them to be inclusive of women much like what Danielle is doing here.
@ Danny
“Yes. Even if you don’t agree with how they operate I think its clear that there is some attempt by them to be inclusive of women much like what Danielle is doing here.”
There is a huge difference between men inviting women into a discussion about masculinity and women saying that women should be included in discussions of masculinity. IMO, I feel that when masculinity is discussed, it is appropriate to have mixed gender and gender exclusive spaces.
There is a huge difference between men inviting women into a discussion about masculinity and women saying that women should be included in discussions of masculinity. IMO, I feel that when masculinity is discussed, it is appropriate to have mixed gender and gender exclusive spaces. But aren’t they both attempts or efforts for inclusiveness? If one of those were not happening (as in if men weren’t trying to include women or if women did not want to be included) then the conversation wouldn’t work. You (I presume with the name John you’re man) and I agree that there should be… Read more »
Yeah, that is one of the many birth defects being suffered by “The Good [something] Project.”
It’s always a shock to me because the men I know don’t say that sort of thing. The women I know don’t say the stuff I hear men complain about either. I often wonder where these pockets of ignorant hateful people are…and how I can continue to only glimpse them occasionally.
Seems more common in youth, people still dunno wtf they want I guess and shit happens which hurts a lot.
Really? If you go to sites like “A Voice for Men” or “The-Spearhead,” it seems a good number of the writers and commenters are 40 or older.
Youth are probably too busy with other things, I don’t think youth do as much blogging as older people.
“If you are going to hate a group of people I think the world will be better if you don’t have sex with them” – I love that line. Brilliant, understated, obvious and witty. I laughed out loud. An epigram worthy to be memed. Memed? Is that a word? Memified?
Yeah, love that one.
Thank you(o:
Now if we can just convince the haters.
The interesting thing is that there seems to be a really freaky dynamic there with the hating mixed with the wanting.
That “really freaky dynamic” seems to have been a part of human sexual behavior from time immemorial. Or at least from the time that male persons starting writing about sex.
If you are going to hate a group of people I think the world will be better if you don’t have sex with them. Some of the “haters” throughout history have actually heeded this advice, from St. Paul, Gregory the Great, St. Thomas Aquinas, and other presumably celibate clerics in western Christianity. However, the fact that these “haters” abstained from copulating with female persons themselves does not always seem to have thwarted their ability to promulgate and enforce misogyny. In fact, sometimes their celibate station seems to have given them greater power and influence to circulate a pernicious judgment of… Read more »
Same here. I’m not saying that it doesn’t happen but in my own experience it seems a “what are men good for?” attitude has been more prevalent that men with a “what are women good for” attitude.
I know Germaine Greer’s “Female Eunuch” starts with a sentence saying roughly “few women are aware of how much men hate women” or something to that effect. I remember joking to friends back when I was in my twenties that if I ever wrote a book on misandryism I’d begin with “few men are left under any illusions as to how much women hate men.” It was only a joke for satirical purposes only, but as you bring it up, I thought I’d resurrect it. Ahem! I guess the distinction would be that there is no shame in hating men,… Read more »
Ahem! I guess the distinction would be that there is no shame in hating men, because historically we’re the oppressor, whereas hating women is something that men usually conceal, certainly from other women, and often from themselves, and we are encouraged to challenge misogynistic views. Unfortunately the “historically men are the oppressors” attitude is exactly what feeds the “its okay to hate men” attitude. And let’s be honest this is revenge in disguise. Which is odd since we’re told that hatred against women is so open and everywhere. …and we are encouraged to challenge misogynistic views. But at the same… Read more »
Well interestingly today a link was posted on Dawkins page on facebook to an outrageously sexist article by a Catholic on why girls shouldn’t go to college. If you’re interested in gender equality it’s a hoot. I made three comments on it: “The article this refers to gives reasons for “shunning” college for girls. Shunning! I haven’t heard shunning used in modern parlance since HP Lovecraft stopped writing. Shun that college! Shun it!” This comment immediately gets a “like” from a feminist. “OMG – there’s some choice phrases in here: “My personal impression is that the day-to-day grind of a… Read more »
Oh yes that article was just so ridiculous. I despise fundementalism.
To be fair-Catholics are not Religious Fundamentalists in a strict sense. These particular Catholics have a pretty bizarro interpretation of doctrine which, in a broader interpretation of “fundamentalism” would fit.
I’d chalk these people up as proud members of the “idiot fringe” of the Catholic Church. Fun to roll your eyes at but not really making much of an impact.
The website is pretty insulting to all those Catholic colleges out there. Apparently Catholic higher education is the same hotbed of sin and corruption as every other part. Makes me wonded why that site doesn’t extend this analysis all the way back to elementary school. Why educate girls at all?
At first I thought that it was some sort of _The Onion_ type of parody, but it looks to be quite sincere.
My favorite part is where it suggests that instead of going to college to get a career to take care of yourself in case your husband dies, it’s better to rely on life insurance instead. So, the Bible teaches us to support the insurance industry? Jesus sings, “get a piece of the rock”?
“The day-to-day grind of a job is below the dignity of women”?
Hilarious. Because being home all day with 4 children under the age of 5 is not a day to day grind, nor is it a job? Much more dignity in changing diapers and wiping asses…..
(Is the Lynne Featherstone in the link you give the same Lynne Featherstone that recently said that FMG would not last 4 minutes if boys penises were getting cut off? http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/09/17/lynne-featherstone-lib-dem-fgm_n_3939911.html?utm_hp_ref=uk)
If so then that link you put doesn’t surprise me.
Yes; that was her. Similarly if breast cancer only affected men it would get as much attention as… prostate cancer, perhaps? Er… there’s a flawed argument for you!
Michael – meet the extreme factions of the MRA!
I don’t think it’s the MRA’s, I think it’s the extreme MGTOW’s. The ones who can’t wait for robotic sexdolls like in the movie A.I. Extreme MRA’s tend to be more conservative types from what I see and are more like…christian conservatives? Man works, woman looks after kid. Most MGTOW’s however are just more along the lines of “I don’t need a woman to be happy” and focus more on having a good life without having to worry so much about being single. I know a few guys who may be MGTOW but it’s more that they just don’t see… Read more »
I don’t know a lot about MGTOWs but browsing some of the forums has shown me quite a few people who seem very hurt and only able to refer to women as “cunts”. My experience hasn’t been positive. I remember when Wooley Bumblebee spoke out against misogyny in that community.
Woollly Bumblebee might not be your best resource for an evenhanded perspective on gender issues.
I find a lot to admire in the MGTOW movement as Archy describes above. “Quit worrying about making women happy and doing what society expects; focus on finding out what works for YOU and what makes YOU happy for a change.” That’s a message all men could benefit from hearing.
If that’s the way then I guess I am MGTOW :O. I’d like a partner but I want to be all good n happy myself, I have a lot of hobbies and I won’t be a slave to a woman. I want an equal, I don’t mind women with an opinion, maybe even a lil stubborn as I am myself and usually they make me laugh as long as they also aren’t a selfish person. I am use to outspoken women, I have some vvverrrryyy strong female cousins and family members who’ll let fly if you piss em off, just… Read more »
I would presume that many MGTOW’s are indeed hostile and bitter, but certainly not all of them. Some just seem indifferent or pacified.
Few people suspect gay men of wanting such an outcome, especially due to the stereotype that gay males and heterosexual females are supposed to be natural friends and buddies who complement each other, or the notion that gay males must idolize and emulate everything female.
Men are less likely to talk about needing/not needing women, because I would argue that men are much more often defined by their utility or society’s need for them than women are. Not that women aren’t defined by usefulness, but I think traditionally men are defined by that much more than women are. Saying a man doesn’t need a woman just doesn’t have the same “kick” to it as a woman saying she doesn’t need a man. Just like saying a man is “plain looking” traditionally just doesn’t have the same social impact as saying a woman is plain looking,… Read more »
A continuation of a long process, Mark – I definitely think there’s something to the point that gender equality progress so far has been much better for capitalism than it has been for males and females.
Just saying that as a guy and a non feminist its stuff like this that turns us away.
I’m curious how you are feeling about the men who are putting this together.
The same way I feel about anyone that ignores a male perspective while pretending to be interested in it.
Tone. It’s the first thing to turn cold in these conversations. so often the messages passed back and forth seem utterly joyless. I’d rather talk about men and women with a smile in my voice. You know?
Now that you’ve explained then please let me respond.
I’m generally the type to go with a neutral tone. But speaking of tone Veronica asked me what I thought and I answered her. Simple as that.
Lol Danny, don’t you know “men rule the world(TM)” and so we don’t need to discuss their issues.
Here’s an entire article about how men matter, an article specifically countering an extreme anti-male position and you guys have nothing better to contribute but this stuff? You’re carrying the narrative of the extremists and ignoring the positive thrust of this article. Sounds a little like you don’t want to let go of your own victim position.
@ Mark Greene “Here’s an entire article about how men matter, an article specifically countering an extreme anti-male position and you guys have nothing better to contribute but this stuff?” Where are you getting that? The thrust of the article is “What they are trying to accomplish is a continual pitting of men and women against one another in a way that is more like a no-holds barred football match.” So, what would be a better approach? The author doesn’t say. She says “I don’t want men to be over. I don’t want women to be over. While we probably… Read more »
@John Gottman,
It’s not that you can’t parse out the positives in this article, it’s that you need to find the negative spaces, because it reaffirms the validity of your agenda. The problem with fighting for justice is, as change begins to evolve, folks fail to enter a collaborative spaces when they evolve out of the very work you are doing. That is where more dogmatic positions hold back progress.
But in failing to recognize the negatives, you allow them to persist, which IMO is no better.
Erm, I don’t think he’s talking about GMP, Mark – or at least not with respect to this particular article anyway.
It’s a light hearted joke, and not about the GMP. I didn’t realize it’d stir up so much debate, sheesh. I recently saw quite a few comments by people, even one by a minister for equality I believe basically blaming the worlds problems on men.
“In September 2011 Featherstone caused controversy by claiming men make “terrible decisions” when they are in charge.”
Lynne Featherstone, junior Home Office minister with responsibility for equality.
Here’s the thing Mark. Veronica asked a question and I answered it.
No we aren’t ignoring the positive thrust. If anything I’d say that you are ignoring the negative experiences that men have had with feminism (which is where that first comment of mine came from). I know we shouldn’t dwell on the negative but I’m not going to rewrite history so that feminists can pretend that there’s never been any hostility towards men either.
But I would suggest that you keep it local. If you have an issue with what this author has said MAYBE that is valid here. If you feel compelled to make her answer for what all feminists have said or done that is very dangerous. Because that opens the door to hold you personally responsible for everything any men’s issues advocate or MRA has ever advocated. And then the whole discussion goes to hell in a hand basket. It is a recipe for allowing the most binary voices own all dialogues. Why would you give the people you most disagree… Read more »
Because that opens the door to hold you personally responsible for everything any men’s issues advocate or MRA has ever advocated.
That happens quite often actually (and I’ll cop to taking the easy way out by just throwing it back in their faces because going the non binary route just doesn’t seem to work) but I do agree that it’s ultimately unproductive and its a work in progress.
You specifically DID ignore the positive thrust, Danny. You literally ONLY mentioned the negative. Here’s a suggestion. “Hey Danielle, I really appreciate that such a well-known and respected feminist writer writer would speak out on behalf of men against the four most famous women in her profession. It can’t be a simple thing to decide to challenge status-quo thinking or take the risk of alienating the people above you on the feminism hierarchy. Glad we have an ally in you, and that you’re using your platform to speak up against divisive language that only serves to harm both men and… Read more »
So if he added your proposed preamble to the beginning of his original comment, that would have forestalled your accusations of bad faith?
Or are you saying that Danny should have only stated your proposed preamble and omitted everything else he said?
@ Joanna Is she speaking up for us? Hanna Rosin may be using a traditional masculine metric and so arrived at rather dubious conclusions, but I feel she’s speaking up for men at least as much as Danielle. Unless I’ve read it incorrectly and she hasn’t clarified, it seems that she willing to resolve notions of masculinity (not necessarily how they manifest as injustices against men) as long as it’s discussed in a context that incorporates women’s views. How many feminists would accept discussion of femininity over calls to action and concrete changes in the law to address injustices against… Read more »
Not sure if I am lumped in with “you guys” but…my comment wasn’t about feminists, I have no idea what political leaning the “men cause all wars” people are, usually it’s just said by a few ignorant people who fail to understand the dynamics of society.
The conversation seems to be winding down and I really wanted to say this because I think I can finally articulate my feelings in a somewhat coherent manner. I remember a conversation we had a while back when I mentioned prison rape stats. I can’t remember if it was adult or juvenile prison. You had not been aware of the stats before and they were both terrible and surprising. Half the rapists in adult prison and the overwhelming majority in juvie were women. You said something about needing more research. I asked why with the data being so horrible that… Read more »
It’s a light-hearted joke, relax.
@Danny. I don’t want to live life in a neutral tone. It is off putting and doesn’t indicate an intention to build community. I believe humans need community. And not just communities of shared enemies. But diverse and wide ranging communities in which people allow for difference and diversity.
I should have said that I START with a neutral tone.
And of course this is within the scope of the gender discourse.
I agree that community is needed.
In the short time I’ve been around GMP I’ve really been thinking about the level of community here and how we could build more community. I’m not sure what to do toward that yet, but the tone of our discussions is really important.
I don’t take much personally, but I do always look at the comments and think, if I was someone who clicked on a GMP article for the first time and read the comments would I think “this is a community I want to be involved in” or would I think “never read the comments on the internet!”
@ Veronica Grace
It’s the diversity of opinions that keep bringing me back. Quite often people confuse community with agreement. How many websites have you seen that boast community with 99% of the commentors having similar positions with only slight disagreement? How can you challenge your beliefs if you only communicate with people who share them?
Disagreement isn’t safe, but it can and should be respectful. I’ve seen some comments, which were out of line and I usually see others that set it straight. That’s all you can ask for.
I don’t take much personally, but I do always look at the comments and think, if I was someone who clicked on a GMP article for the first time and read the comments would I think “this is a community I want to be involved in” or would I think “never read the comments on the internet!” I suppose that would depend on the diversity of the comments and the types of comments that one sees when clicking on an article. Its one thing to gear a community towards being as welcoming as possible but at the same time its… Read more »
Would you prefer echo chambers of the same opinion? I learn more from the comments half the time than the article. Debate is good.
John, Danny & Archy,
I don’t see anywhere that I said anything about agreeing or not allowing other opinions(or groups, unless by group you mean people who are disrespectful).
I was talking about tone. I spent 5 years as a professional mediator. I can disagree with you like you wouldn’t believe… respectfully in a thoughtful tone. I like different opinions, that’s how I sharpen my own beliefs or turn them in for better ones.
If the community decides that disagreement is safe it can be safe.
And even then the content seems to have influence over how someone perceives the tone of the speaker.
One thing I’ve learned is that its far too easy to (try to) determine someone’s tone by what is being said.
I’ve already gotten into it once tonight over this post and don’t feel like retreading so I’ll just leave it at that.
Take it easy.
Ahh, my bad, misread that as people agreeing, vs tone. I only just wokeup a lil while ago 😛
Ah Hanna Rosin, the Wayne Gale of “feminism.”
*bangs head on desk*
I am continually surprised by how the people who are supposed to be experts, the people who are supposed to be educated and spend their time using critical thinking skills get it so wrong.
Doesn’t it just make you cringe? I dislike all of these panelists and NONE of them speak for me.
I wonder if Munkers are doing this on purpose. If they set this up to make women being involved look stupid than they will point at that from now on. “We tried having women involved, look we gave them their own whole debate! and it was awful so clearly we shouldn’t include women any more.” What the hell kind of question is that? I suppose I don’t know their usual questions so maybe they are all stupid? Men will never be obsolete not because women need them to do manly things or to tell them what to do or to… Read more »
I agree on every count!
i always say that Hana Rosin is like the giant, mastermind troll. When I see her name, I always think, “Who is Hana Rosin trolling now?”
To Rosin’s credit, she has not exploited the latest shooting rampages to plug her “End of Men” thesis, like she did for the Aurora shooting.
I actually don’t mind her. It can be next to impossible to get society to move on issues that affect men/ boys. The increasing education gap, the slow movement in recognizing shared parenting, the sentencing bias against men…there are many others. In a media-soaked world where men are often looked on as only privileged-best… intrinsically violent and evil-worst, I think shows like these can open up a dialogue we, as a society, don’t often feel comfortable having.
Maybe Rosin’s trolling opens up a dialogue, maybe not. One can sensibly question whether Rosin is actually interested in a dialogue, or just interested in schadenfreude. Andy Hinds (who contributes here sometimes) claims that Rosin distorted and misrepresented his situation so as to depict him as a pitiable and contemptible failure of masculinity.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/09/29/hanna-rosin-s-the-end-of-men-turned-me-into-a-caricature.html