Vicki Larson tells women not to go hot. Tom Matlack disagrees. A frank discussion ensues.
Vicki Larson and I have been having a fairly heated conversation about what ugly has to do, or not do, with a man being marrying material. She wrote a Huffington Post column that got huge attention for claiming that women should go ugly, lest they be subject to the Weiner/Tiger/Arnold syndrome—appealing and powerful men who crash and burn.
I am not sure we will ever agree completely, but in my direct conversations with Vicki I get the sense that we actually agree, perhaps more than we disagree. Vicki and I thought it might be informative to engage in a spirited question and answer about her original piece and my sense of what manhood really is all about.
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Vicki Larson is the lifestyles editor at a San Francisco Bay Area newspaper and the author of the hugely popular blog post: “Hot or Not? Why Women Shouldn’t Pick Attractive Husbands”
Tom Matlack founder of the Good Men Project, wrote the rebuttal to Larson’s piece, “Why Men Don’t Need to Be Ugly to Be Good”
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Tom: Vicki, everywhere I look, there are articles that attempt to summarize manhood (ironically most often written by women). Don’t you think making sweeping stereotype-driven judgments about men is the same thing as making those judgments about women, or blacks, or gays?
Vicki: You’re surprised? Women love analyzing men! Sweeping stereotypes are horrible—I hate being seen as a high-maintenance gold-digger living off my ex’s hard-earned money just because I’m a divorced blonde. Intelligent people understand that the world doesn’t work in absolutes—“never” and “always.”
What saddens me reading the comments here and elsewhere is that we still focus on how “bad” the other sex is. The studies I cite are old, they’ve been written about many times before, but because of social media, many knee-jerk react and spread it faster, farther and wider than before. So much for thoughtful commentary.
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Tom: I heard an interesting interview with John Hamm, who plays Don Draper on “Mad Men,” in which he talked about how difficult it is for him to be objectified. He was serious about it and appeared to be an honest and sweet man despite his good looks. Should we be feeling sorry for him?
Vicki: We all want to feel attractive, not objectified. Still, Hamm chose a career that feeds off of good looks and he’s being paid well and has many opportunities because of it. But it’s great he’s talking about it because women don’t know how men feel about being lust objects. Most women, however, do; even women who aren’t “beautiful” are drooled over because they might have great breasts or a butt. We need to be empathetic to how the other sex experiences things; Louanne Brizendine’s books on male and female brains are great.
Tom: Do you really believe the studies you cite that men with higher testosterone, presumably the most macho guys around, are not to be trusted?
Vicki: I didn’t write that. Studies indicate men with higher testosterone levels have a tendency to lie and cheat more than men with lower levels. They’re also incredibly exciting. That doesn’t mean all of them will lie and cheat, and any woman who decides to marry a guy or not based on that alone is foolish. Of course, people get married for lots of foolish reasons.
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Tom: In the course of my work with the Good Men Project, I’ve spoken to thousands of men about what it means to be good—from inmates to celebrities—and one of the things I have come to is that goodness is a self-defined concept. For one man it might be taking care of his autistic child and for another it’s risking his life to take pictures of the truth of the war in Iraq. How do you define “good” as it relates to manhood?
Vicki: Not to diss the name of your project, which as the mom of two young men and a woman who loves men I’m a fan of, but “good” is a meaningless word. Mildred Baena called Arnold Schwarzenegger a good man. Good to her, perhaps, but not to his family. And, you aren’t good because you’re taking care of your autistic child; that’s what you signed up for when you became a parent.
Good isn’t a male or female thing. So I’d rather define what it is to be human—kind; loving; compassionate; empathetic; self-aware; honest; respects him/herself and others; generous of spirit; realizes he/she is part of a much bigger picture; takes responsibility for his/her actions, and has a moral compass. That’s so incredibly sexy it’s beyond “good.” Bonus points if it comes with a great face and bod.
Tom: In picking a spouse we grapple with different levels of attraction. There’s the animalistic, “Wow that person is hot” kind. The “I am just in awe of that person.” And finally, “I can’t imagine walking this planet without that person in my life” kind. When you advised women to go ugly what were you really saying about attraction?
Vicki: I was tongue-in-cheek about going ugly! I am not telling women—or men—to settle for anyone less than the person who rocks their world. But we need to reexamine what attractive means.
Anthony Weiner was once named a Cosmo eligible bachelor. Yet clearly from the comments here, few found him handsome and many called him ugly. I don’t think he’s ugly but he’s not hot enough to send me nude pics of himself! So, what makes him an eligible bachelor if it’s not his looks? Many commentors said he only attracted models and women because of his power and status. Well, if that’s what we consider attractive, if that’s what Cosmo’s selling to women as good hubby material, no wonder men call us gold-diggers. Plus, since those guys are the high testosterone guys, we’re right back to the beginning.
I’d hope he was an eligible bachelor because of the whole package; he’s a smart (until he proved himself incredibly dumb), fit, passionate, funny man with a (once) promising future. Attractive isn’t just looks, and character needs to be added to our definition.
Tom: In a world filled with porn and superficial images of female beauty what do you tell your sons, 17 and 20, about what to look for in a woman?
Vicki: You think I can tell my sons anything? Girls are an off-limits topic. I have been delightfully pleased at the girls they consider attractive, real girls with real bodies, no makeup, sweet and smart.
I hope I’ve modeled for them what to look for by my priorities—family and friends over material things and status—and how I respect my body; I’d never inject poison or plastic into or overload it with crappy food.
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Tom: Do you think that we are guilty of spending too much time on celebrity men behaving badly or it is important to nail these guys in order to make sure women see what is not acceptable?
Vicki: We spend too much time on celebrities, period, and increasingly it’s becoming “news.” We don’t want to just nail the guys; we seem to enjoy any celebrity falling. There have been plenty of women who fall, but women tend to self-destruct. It seems more high-profile men often behave badly with women, and that, unfortunately, reflects poorly for men in general for some women. It’s those stereotypes again. But I sure hope we aren’t looking to celebrities for guidance. Who cares what they do? Politicians, however, must be held accountable.
Tom: Do you really think marriage works better when the wife is hotter than the husband?
Vicki: It’s obvious it doesn’t since mine ended in divorce! OK, I’m joking. I think guys would love to have a hot wife. But there’s no one formula that leads to a happy marriage. A marriage works best when the couple is committed to each other, similar in the ways that matter, and forgiving and accepting in the ways in which they differ. Having a hot husband or wife does not create that.
Tom: Do you think Abedin will, as you suggest, dump Weiner while there is still time so she can use her beauty to snag another man—only this time go ugly?
Vicki: I did not suggest Abedin dump Weiner, and I was, again, tongue-in-cheek about splitting before the baby will have memories of the divorce. It’s an option. But she’s about to be a mom, and deciding to divorce when you have kids is tough as it should be given how divorce impacts kids. Ask any 40-something woman what it’s like to find love and you’ll hear that it’s harder than when she was in her 20s or 30s, even if she’s beautiful, smart and accomplished.
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Tom: We talk a lot about defining moments as men. It could be the loss of a child or a job, the slow erosion of addiction, or a divorce. But that moment when you look in the mirror and have no idea who is looking back. When for the first time you have to get radically honest with yourself about something excruciatingly hard. And that goodness often comes from devastating failure rather than success. Do you think it’s possible Weiner will end up a better man?
Vicki: I’d love to believe that we could get that self-awareness, have that epiphany, without hitting bottom. But hitting bottom and being “radically honest” don’t automatically give us that epiphany—we need ways to think and act differently, and we need support. Will Weiner become a better man? I hope so, for his child’s sake. And if he’s lucky, Abedin will be right there by his side.
—Photo barkbud/Flickr
I’d be curious to read this study about testosterone and cheating/lying. Any time you’re looking at a link between hormones or brain chemicals and behavior, it’s a sticky issue. Unless you manipulate hormone levels– in this case, administer testosterone– and then measure behavior, there’s no way of knowing that the hormones or brain chemicals in questions actually caused the behavior; you just have a strong correlation. For example, the study may have found a high correlation between elevated testosterone levels and cheating/lying, but it’s possible the behavior actually caused the higher T levels, not the other way around. There are… Read more »
Women chase the wallet and looks! (they’ll swear up and down they’ don’t but they do) Women are generally judge,jury and executioner in the dating/marriage world.It is ALWAYS THE GUY who has to put his head on the chopping block.I wish women could experience the burning pain of rejection that a guy feels getting shot down approaching a girl,having your gfs parents act as though you are not good enough for their daughter,being judged because your have a lowly diploma compared to her superior college degree,being used by a woman so she can get to one of your friends,being strung… Read more »
Going ugly is not an option either, because they have high un-realistic expectations also, meaning they’re are not going to choose a woman he thinks is not attractive. Un attractive men try harder to get women because some simply have to and the more women he has encounters with the more he’s likely to feel attractive. I know a guy who is not attractive at all and his personality doesn’t help either he has missing teeth, terrible acne. He thinks he is suppose to be with women that look like Miss America, well this one woman entertained him only to… Read more »
I can believe that a man who’s devastatingly good-looking would, all things being equal, be a less optimal choice for a traditional husband than someone who was just above average. Women would be wise to look beyond looks. Of course, EVERYONE would be wise to look beyond appearance in finding a long-term relationship partner. But, of course, this advice mostly applies to women who are looking for a long-term committed relationship and presumably women who see his long-term monogamy as a primary goal. Women who are looking for a monogamous, husband-type partner. This does not apply to all single women,… Read more »
It’s true, some people just shouldn’t get married. I think some of these politicians get married for political reasons not because they have any true desire to have a long term partner. Voters are suspicious of male politicians who are single too long. Weiner was at the age where his failure to settle down could start to raise eyebrows, and rumors. This could really be a problem if he had aspirations for higher office. I suspect he was told by his political consultants that he’d better get married sooner rather than later. He found a woman who would enhance his… Read more »
I think most women just look for one aspect of strength in a man. Whether that be his ability with children, intelligence, body, spirit….the list goes on. Different strengths speak to different women. I’ve been attracted to a wide range of men from overweight and balding to athletic with nice shoulders. I find it’s more about chemistry then outright stereotypical ideas about good looks.
We women are always telling men that they should be less superficial, and look for women with character and depth rather than nice T&A. 🙂 So I don’t understand why Vicki Larsen’s article was considered controversial. I think she’s just telling women that they should look for character in a mate, rather than a flashy surface, whether that means strictly good looks, or an objectively ugly guy with alpha male power and status (like Weiner). The truth is, people who have the most desirable traits, including highly attractive women, and men who are good looking, rich or powerful, get used… Read more »
I think super extra “hotness” is usually engineered, and frequently points to superficial mating goals, whether a man does it or a woman does it. Going for attractive B-level people is a great strategy. Especially if they’re smart and funny.
I appreciate Vicki’s tongue-in-cheek comments. Pretty funny. It flips on its ear the Jimmy Soul song “If You Want To Be Happy” in which he recommends marrying a less physically attractive woman to ensure that she won’t constantly be tempted by into cuckolding him. Good times. What I find a little tough is the relativism around the descriptor “good.” Existence is a wash of mottled gray hues… that’s a fact. But that there is no good or bad and we’re all just human is a little too up-with-people for my tastes. While we’re all sinners (I use the term for… Read more »
@ Tim — Thanks for noting that I inject humor, if not Botox, in my life. Sure, existence is a wash of gray, but we can all agree that some things are “good” — that parents care for their kids, that people get paid a decent wage, etc. — and what’s “bad” — murder, rape, abuse, etc. But when it comes to behavior, “good” is kind of meaningless because we have too many definitions of it, which is, of course, what Tom says when he writes it’s a “self-defined concept.” I love the Quaker statement, “Let your life speak.” If… Read more »
Oops make that @Tom, not @Tim Parsons. Damn reading glasses!
Thank you for posting such a thoughtful discussion! I’d been following the comments from the earlier rebuttal article, but appreciate this round-up much better. Mr. Matlack, your comments and questions were thought-provoking as ever. Ms. Larson, I disagree with your opinion that the word “good” is meaningless. I think the whole point is that it’s subjective, and the point of this blog and its books/articles/etc. are to raise those thought-provoking internal and external debates about how to live a purposefully good life (as a man OR a woman). To define someone as a “good” person, to me, means they are… Read more »
“moral compass” Weiner? Somebody’s not been paying attention. He’s a lying pos on a number of issues, beating some opponents in an election by falsely and anonymously accusing them of favoring blacks in the wake of the Crown Heights riot.
That’s right, I forgot about that particular bit of demagoguery. His whoring himself to the finance industry (v.Alexander Cockburn in Counterpunch, June 17) doesn’t make him look better, either.