Higher Unlearning and White Ribbon Campaign’s Jeff Perera looks back at the initial Walk heard ’round the world, and forward to this year’s Slut Walk Toronto.
“When a man gives his opinion, he’s a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she’s a bitch.” ― Bette Davis
Originally appeared at Higher UnLearning
Confession: I cringe a bit when people refer to me as an ‘expert’ around issues of masculinity and all things gender-related. I am a student of all this, still learning, still listening. Sometimes a lesson is that which you always knew, but now have come to understand. I had this experience in Taiwan last November where a piece of understanding clicked into place.
Mohini Athia is coordinator of Safe@School from COPA who teamed with White Ribbon on It Starts With You (a resource of tools & e-modules to help men be stronger role models to young men & boys). Mohini and I were invited to give keynote speeches at the Garden of Hope’s Breaking and Rebuilding-2011 Asian Conference of Women’s Shelters in Taipei. In part of my talk, I mentioned how anger and aggression can sometimes be the only emotion society encourages men and boys to show. Mohini later talked to me about how this can be the opposite for women and girls. Gender ‘codes of conduct’ throughout society discourage or deny women permission to express anger or display assertiveness. Now I try to always mention in my talks how the Be-A-Lady mantra of ‘sugar and spice and everything nice‘ is part of what leads us to devalue a woman’s voice, deny her anger and mute her cry of discontent.
During a joint presentation later on in Taipei, our translator paused and looked back at Mohini, with an expression indicating the puzzle that was a particular word.
“Slut…walk???” the young woman said, tripping over the phrase.
Misunderstanding? Confusion over just what this new one-word statement meant? This was not exclusive to her. There are some who had an internal lost-in-translation moment grasping the need for Slutwalk. Criticism came from those who misunderstood the aim and goals to those who do not have a sense of the realities women from all walks of life face. Many in the mainstream media focused more on dress than discourse, passing Slutwalk off as a gathering of women in underwear or misinterpreting the message as encouraging women to ignore risks.
Despite this, the core of their defiant message reverberated, stirred debate and dialogue and brought the conversation to the forefront as it resonated with people across the world. Slutwalk remains today about “bringing attention to the continued reality of victim-blaming and slut-shaming in cases of sexual violence…” With a focused, self-reflexive and determined resilience, the Slutwalk movement was born from more than just frustration over the words of a police officer…
…it was the last straw.
“I actually had slut written on my locker in high school too. Thankfully it was written in pencil so I could erase it. I still remember how much I cried. It hurts that people would say such derogatory and demeaning things about a person they don’t even know…get a thrill knowing that they can make someone else cry.” – Soni
I remember standing in front of Toronto Police Headquarters that April 3rd afternoon last year. I was waiting. When I arrived there was just a few signs that something was coming: a handful of media and photographers, people setting up, some police and a few people like me. Waiting. There was no indication of what was on the way.
And then, in the distance surfacing from the horizon of the city…
What was ideally a gathering of a few hundred people ended up attracting thousands in a sea of people as far as eyes could see. I asked Sonya Barnett, co-founder of Slutwalk about that moment when they all gathered, having no idea of what to expect. “When I first arrived at Queen’s Park, the crowd was fairly small, and I thought ‘well, maybe this isn’t that big an issue’…then the buses started piling out and at one point I turned around and *all* I could see were people. I hoped that the energy created and carried that day would continue through the fight and that things would start to change.“
This was a wave of change the world was waiting for…
…for many, they have been tired of waiting.
”Oppressive language does more than represent violence; it is violence; does more than represent the limits of knowledge; it limits knowledge” – Toni Morrison
In Fall 2010 I had the opportunity to deliver a TEDx talk at the first ever TEDxRyersonU conference at Ryerson University. My talk was entitled ‘Words Speak Louder Than Actions’ . Playing on the classic phrase, I hoped to engage others in recognizing the power our words have, and the impact we all make in everyday situations.
Michael Eric Dyson describes the most potent insult that can be directed at a man is to question his manhood and feminize him by calling him “a derogatory term usually reserved for women or gay men: “bitch,” “ho,” “pussy” or “fag”. The universal denial of access for young boys to their full humanity and the complete denigration of women, is a key element in the foundation of bullying. Author of ’The Bully Society’ Jessie Klein sums it up:
“Keeping discussions about gender and sexuality out of schools reinforces isolation and cements our schools’ bully society. Even schools that take bullying seriously often miss the connection to gender. They may punish the bullies and throw one after another out of school, but they leave the culture of sexual harassment and bullying firmly intact “
Stories and headlines have been swirling just above the surface, circling around issues of bullying within high school and post-secondary spaces. Today’s generation faces unparalleled challenges around bullying and harassment that come with our internet age; people living their lives online as much as in person through social media and in the online world of video games. Look at this incident with video gamer Aris Bakhtanians who made extremely offensive and oppressive comments during an episode of “Cross Assault”, a promotional competitive web-TV series, which reflect the sexual harassment, sexist behaviour and offensive language prominent in video game culture. You can see and hear in a compilation of Bakhtanian’s sexual harassing acts and comments in this video.(**Trigger Warning**)
Was she asking for it?
Aris then had a conversation with Jared Rea regarding his harassing treatment of gamer Miranda Pakozdi. The question Rea asked was “Can I get my Street Fighter without sexual harassment?” Aris replies:
“You can’t. You can’t because they’re one and the same thing. This is a community that’s, you know, 15 or 20 years old, and the sexual harassment is part of a culture, and if you remove that from the fighting game community, it’s not the fighting game community “
Aris then goes onto to explain when asked if numbers of male video gamers & fans yelling “Rape That Bitch!” at in-person live contests is acceptable:
“Look, man. What is unacceptable about that? There’s nothing unacceptable about that. These are people, we’re in America, man, this isn’t North Korea. We can say what we want.”
Here it is, in all its horror. This is an example of a man feeling entitlement, oblivious to consequence or impact on others. Is this an experience you can relate to? If not, is this a wake up call inspiring you to do something? Whenever we hear discussions of bullying, sex-shaming and sexual harassment, the sexism and misogyny is treated as a after-thought instead of a hot-trail leading to the source of the crime.
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There is a viral and infectious desecration of women worldwide, inhabiting every awake and asleep corner of the planet. Our collective societal response to avoid discussing the real matter at hand has allowed the weeds of hate to overwhelm the garden.
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We deny women and girls the right to happiness, equality and even to life itself.
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“Rachel Ehmke, a 13-year-old seventh grader in Mantorville, Minn., died April 29 after hanging herself at her home. The months leading up to the tragedy were a whirlwind of peer abuse instances, her parents say… the word “slut” was scrawled across her gym locker… the same group of girls reportedly threatened Rachel and kept calling her a “prostitute” though she had never kissed a boy…two days before Rachel’s death, an anonymous text was sent to other students at the school…” It was pretty explicit. Something to the effect of that Rachel was a slut and to get her to leave the Kasson-Mantorville School” parent Chris Flannery told the station. A note that her parents found read “I’m fine = I wish I could tell you how I really feel,” alongside a picture of a broken heart” – from the Huffington Post.
Here is the point:
In the case of Rachel Ehmke, her parents indicate that to their knowledge, she had never even kissed a boy before. Whether she did or did not does not matter as far as what she went through and experienced. Whether she had slept with 20 boys or never even held a boy’s hand does not matter, as far as defining her value and worth.
Young boys are permitted to explore sex in most circles and attain positive status when they do. Some will fabricate or exaggerate experiences to gain notoriety among peers, at the cost of a woman usually. They even get status nicknames like ’Smooth Operator’ or ‘Don Juan’. In a certain period of my life where I was very sexually active with numerous partners, there was a quiet pride in being called ‘Shaft’ and seen as a ‘player’ or a ‘stud’ by co-workers both male and female.
For young women this is the opposite, and the standard does not stop after high school.
In a study of North American English, Stanley (1977, cited by Graddol & Swann, 1989, p. 110) identified 220 words for a sexually promiscuous woman but only 20 for a sexually promiscuous man.
For a woman to experience these attacks, it doesn’t even depend on sexual activity or rumoured activity, it can come down to her appearance. Should a woman decide to dress in a tight outfit, a ‘power suit’ or be covered in a full length thick winter coat, she is still subject to comments, judgements and evaluation. Her body is still seen as property for public consumption, random eyes feeling entitled to stare and ‘occupy’ her personal space and safety.
When she rejects conforming with societal standards of beauty she is judged and devalued
When she conforms with societal standards of beauty she is judged and devalued
When she simply is herself …she is judged and devalued
A woman is labelled a slut just for being.
This isn’t simply about the word, it is about the denegration of women in every way.
♦◊♦
The Slutwalk movement is in part, a defiant effort to take violent language off the table, rip the weapon out of the oppressor’s hands and say ‘enough‘.
The history of land taken from Aboriginal and First Nations hands is lost in such jingles, but one of my favourite commercials growing up was about our province. Good things grow in Ontario.
Starting in Ontario is one of many things Slutwalk and White Ribbon have in common. When I asked him to reflect on this, Executive Director of the White Ribbon Campaign, Todd Minerson shared this:
“Slutwalk Toronto and White Ribbon Campaign have more in common than our similar evolutions from a small idea, mobilized by a few committed people here in Ontario; with a resonance that spread around the world. We even have more in common than our shared visions to end violence against women, girls; to end homophobia; and to support all survivors of violence. We also share a vision that is entrenched in challenging and ending the root causes of these injustices. We both seek an end to the tremendously damaging kinds of victim blaming stereotypes that dominate our discussions of sexual violence; we both seek an end to the polarizing sexual shaming dialogues that are counter productive to healthy, humane, and really human conversations about sexuality, respect, consent, and inclusion…”
I remember standing there with my friends Sarah and Adriana as the crowd dispersed. We ran into others we knew, and wandered in the afterglow. I sensed that we witnessed something historic unfold and lingered, taking in the last moments of inspired-energy drifting into the sky. I remember feeling drawn to the platform area where the speakers stood and there was Heather Jarvis. Feeling my spirit reaching out past my physical body wanting to connect with her, I watched as she paced back and forth from one conversation to another.
Heather, along with Sonya, co-founded Slutwalk. As she later described that moment to me, she was in that state of post-event organizer frenzy, and awash in pure joy. “It was two things” said Heather to me looking back “I was so overwhelmed and shocked, my emotions spiraled… all in the most excited and positive way. I was reeling from all the people I talked to afterwards, survivors, media and old friends who surprised me by coming out to support. Washing over me were these heartbreaking stories and at the same time, this celebration of communal resistance.”
I debated when to step into her routine and, with all good intentions, talk about building some amazing energy as organizations and individuals, but I didn’t. I said to myself “the right time will come, I know we will connect at some point. She is busy. I need to respect her space and need to focus.”
Men need to realize, that everyday situations and random moments are not always the time to try and meet a woman. Your desire to connect and talk to a woman at the coffee shop, on the train, walking to work, does not override her right to just sit in a coffee shop, sit on the train or walk to work. She isn’t here as an opportunity for you, she is a human being doing her thing. Respect that. This is one of many lessons Slutwalk satellite locations worldwide are sharing with men and young men. Slutwalk Seattle shared this brilliant post that explains it much better than I did:
People are not aware of the amazing, quiet, everyday learning moments the movement has created. On their Facebook pages, Slutwalk Toronto has engaged with people in a way that is inspiring. Not pulled down into arguing over social media threads, they elevate discourse and engage to help others understand…like this exchange between Colleen Westendorf, Communications Coordinator/Organizer for Slutwalk Toronto and a male.
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Bringing these conversations to the mainstream in a way that hasn’t been seen in decades, the movement spread globally like a sweeping wind…
With such a rapid growth, there came growing pains moments. Wind can’t be easily directed or steered. Being able to contain and steer perceptions, get folks in other nations to embrace concepts like having privilege in spaces of non-privilege, all the way from Toronto in an overnight instant, was a real challenge. There were incidents where the group needed to role-model introspection, self-reflection and how to nurture further inclusive spaces. After they received an ‘Open Letter from Black Women to the Slutwalk’ from the Black Woman’s Blueprint‘, they took time to responsibly reflect and respond and help others understand further about the issue.
In a recent statement they also said “In our efforts to become a more well-grounded, safer, anti-oppressive space we have listened to the voices of our critiques and have tried to foster a particular messaging and manner of organizing that challenges the perpetuation of a culture in which privileged identities continue to be centered and “others” are placed on the margins.” A world without violence for women of all walks of life is at the core of the Slutwalk movement, but they also acknowledge that this is a complex conversation, and not a simple one. Kim Crosby points out a quote by Alexis Pauline Gumbs in her brilliant post ‘Who are you calling a Slut? Speaking at Slutwalk 2012′
“May we continue to disagree, may we continue to distinguish our movements by their bases of accountability, may we continue to give different accounts of how we got here and where we are, and may we collaborate but never compromise our visions of where we ought to be.”
Kim’s entire article is brilliant, so I ask you all to take a moment and read it for yourself.
It is with extreme humility and thankfulness that I accepted the invitation to speak at Slutwalk 2012. Their passion and drive to overcome obstacles and resistance coming from every angle has been an inspiration. I have gotten to the know the team over the past half-year and count their presence in my life and life itself as a blessing.
Last year, White Ribbon Campaign co-founder Michael Kaufman spoke to the crowd, I am humbled to follow him and be a part of taking White Ribbon’s message into the future, working with dear allies at Slutwalk. Todd also shared that White Ribbon and Slutwalk ”both accept that there is a world where men can be allies, partners, role models & engaged bystanders.” Part of the work is getting men to understand the power of derogatory language towards women and how we can play a role in helping to end street harassment & sexual harassment.
We want to reimagine ideas of masculinity and provide examples of healthy role models in behaviour, attitudes, actions and character. Some say working to ‘dismantle’ words like slut is not possible, just like some will also say ‘boys will be boys’ and that we can can’t reclaim masculinity. This reminds me of the following bell hooks quote, it is the message I truly wish to convey in my talk at Slutwalk this year:
My focus as a male ally is to stop men and boys from using words as violence, from using violence altogether, and become part of that wind of change.
She have been waiting.
She is tried of waiting.
We are tired of waiting.
Image and photographs courtesy of the author and/or SlutWalk, and reprinted with permission.
Everyone loves what you guys tend to be up too. Such clever work and reporting!
Keep up the great works guys I’ve you guys to our blogroll.
Yes, society teaches men to only react angrily. That’s why when men act with anger over things, they’re listened to. It’s not like people and society tells them to shut up and man up, and has women especially back away saying, “If only you weren’t so angry.” Uh… Yes, society indeed teaches not to get raped as opposed to not to rape. The same with mugging, society does not teach not to violently mug, it teaches not to get violently mugged. If you as a man walk into a dark alley, drunk, alone, with money piling out of your pockets,… Read more »
Interesting comments here. Marcus Williams, I especially liked one of your posts and I’ll jot that one down :). I didn’t go through all the comments do I dunno if it was mentioned but the whole “society doesn’t teach ‘don’t rape’ doesn’t seem true to me. It’s illegal for starters. Isn’t that a pretty loud message of “Hey! Don’t do this!”?
Perhaps this is just so obvious as to be an absurd point:
Shouldn’t the police be more interested in what the alleged rapist was wearing at the time than what the alleged victim was wearing? You know, if you wanted to work up an actual description of the suspect and, you know, do your job as a cop and everything. Save that minute you spend asking what the victim was wearing and spend it on some kind of, I don’t know, actual law enforcement.
Young boys are permitted to explore sex in most circles and attain positive status when they do. Some will fabricate or exaggerate experiences to gain notoriety among peers, at the cost of a woman usually. I just love how folks that are supposedly about sexual freedom for all people think that this is the start and end of young male sexuality. Young boys aren’t just permitted to explore they are damn near demanded to explore. They are tossed out of the colony into the unforgiving wastes so to speak and are expected to come back with experiences in order to… Read more »
“So yeah while those lies may come at the cost of a women” I think the sexuality standards of women not being allowed to enjoy sex and men being required to want sex is mutually detrimental. It doesn’t just cost women. That’s why you’re right about both problems needing to be fixed. It’s easy to see how the belief that men should want sex all the time could damage male victims of female perpetrated sexual assault, but could this also impact male perpetrated sexual assault against females. If I have to have sex with women to be a man, would… Read more »
If I have to have sex with women to be a man, would I be less willing to worry about whether she consents? That’s a good point. A point that I have tried to mention before. Filling guys heads with such desctructive notions of sexuality are damaging all around. If young boys weren’t being fed the idea that they have to be forceful with girls when it comes to sex then maybe there wouldn’t be such a problem with male against female sexual violence. What you say here plus this, “It’s easy to see how the belief that men should… Read more »
“Young boys aren’t just permitted to explore they are damn near demanded to explore. They are tossed out of the colony into the unforgiving wastes so to speak and are expected to come back with experiences in order to be counted as a “real man” and failure to do so means that he is nothing.”
And remember as a man you are born with oceans of confidence, power, and knowledge and should never require help or sympathy in any way.
/sarcasm
And remember as a man you are born with oceans of confidence, power, and knowledge and should never require help or sympathy in any way.
Of course.
And in the event that a man does need help he is delcared to be not a man. And in the event a man points out how unfair this double bind is he is declared to be whining about losing male privilege. Because apparently few things oppress women more than trying to help men out of this double bind.
Slut walk? Aimed at all the men? Even the one’s not responsible? because of the actions of a few? We are all branded terrorists? Put things in perspective. If you you put someone in a Lion’s cage, you expect it to not maul? How are you even sure if its trained or not, you still will have fear. Likewise try walking nude and then blame all the men? Its next to impossible to change mentality, people come from all walks of life with different experiences. To blame everyone for the actions of few men is absurd. Half the participants in… Read more »
Each person has a different vision of what Masculinity is.
Some people’s visions are harmful but that doesn’t mean every person’s vision needs to be fixed.
Sexual harassment, Being insulted online, pressure on what you wear and how many partner you have…these things happen to men and are commited by woman to.
We don’t need a SlutWalk, we need a PeopleWalk.
One thing I hear occasionally from certain feminists is that if men were being raped it would be treated more seriously. ht tp://www.genderratic.com/?p=1448 Here is a very great article at genderratic that talks about an article in which the 36 hour sexual assault of a man (by a woman) is consistently downplayed. She is not referred to as a rapist. She is referred to as a nymphomaniac. She is also sentenced to therapy rather than jail time. Despite their desire to help, I see a lot of feminists (either purposefully or) unintentionally undermining men’s humanity by the idea that only… Read more »
I think there is a deep and pervasive cultural shame/issue around sexual assault to begin with, and layer on top of that gender issues and a general desire to deny that I as a woman (or someone as a man) could be capable of that violence all adds up to a great deal of tamping down the reality that men are assaulted by men and women, and women are also assaulted by men and women, and that violence occurs. We will not be able to truly change this dynamic if we are all so determined to place blame on one… Read more »
Excellent point Julie.
I agree 1000%
“Despite their desire to help, I see a lot of feminists (either purposefully or) unintentionally undermining men’s humanity by the idea that only women can be victims (at least they don’t believe strongly enough in support of male victims to march for them).” Just feel the need to point out (again) that this is actually a failure to move beyond traditional gender norms. Yeah it’s a failure by a good number of feminists to move beyond these norms…but my point is that feminism didn’t create this problem. Also, there are more and more feminists who are recognizing the problem with… Read more »
Heather, I totally hear where you’re coming from. But, look at this article on slutwalk. Slutwalks are predominantly about men/masculinity and declaring masculinity to be broken. Redefining masculinity wouldn’t have helped the girl who committed suicide. That is about girls use of relational aggression–not about men or masculinity. Slutwalks do nothing to help male victims of shaming (from anybody) and do nothing to help women who are victims of shaming of other women. As the author says “My focus as a male ally is to stop men and boys from using words as violence” (against women only or primarily). Once… Read more »
Excellent point. What to do about supposedly toxic masculinity when the tormentors are female? The girls who pushed another girl to commit suicide are agents of male sexism? How does that work?
Just feel the need to point out (again) that this is actually a failure to move beyond traditional gender norms. Yeah it’s a failure by a good number of feminists to move beyond these norms…but my point is that feminism didn’t create this problem. Also, there are more and more feminists who are recognizing the problem with this. Sure they didn’t start it but they don’t seem to have a problem with embracing it when it suits them. I wonder even now if they see a real problem with it or do they just want to address it just enough… Read more »
@ HeatherN
“Just feel the need to point out (again) that this is actually a failure to move beyond traditional gender norms. Yeah it’s a failure by a good number of feminists to move beyond these norms…”
Isn’t that supporting the patriarchy?
@ HeatherN “Just feel the need to point out (again) that this is actually a failure to move beyond traditional gender norms. Yeah it’s a failure by a good number of feminists to move beyond these norms…but my point is that feminism didn’t create this problem. Also, there are more and more feminists who are recognizing the problem with this.” That’s not to say that people don’t make mistakes, learn or grow. I think it’s great if feminists start to align their movement with what many feminists tell me that it is, a movement for gender equality, but I doubt… Read more »
Who said anything about remaining silent? I was just trying to again emphasize that, if we’re going to examine the causes of these problems, we need to be accurate about it, and not blame feminism because it’s easy.
Its easy because of the they make themselves a target by contributing to the problem but then claiming they don’t and are actually the solution. You’re right its not fair to blame feminism for creating the problems but when members of the movement seem to embrace the problem to the point where they actually take advantage of it while claiming to be the ones working on solving I can see how they would be blamed. Honestly I think that some feminists seem to want to skip to the point where they have already moved beyond those gender norms and pretend… Read more »
So, let’s talk about this. “Honestly I think that some feminists seem to want to skip to the point where they have already moved beyond those gender norms and pretend that there was never a point where they embraced them or used them to their advantage.” This is truly interesting stuff. You ever read Jung? All this stuff we are talking about is shadow territory. No one likes admitting the shadow stuff yes? Individuals need to do that work on an individual basis-looking in the mirror of self and confronting the things that are not pretty, not nice, not fair… Read more »
My favorite neo-Jungian quote about the shadow stuff:
“It’s hard to get a good look at the giant fish swimming behind you trying to eat you.”
On a count of being the slowest reader on the planet (my comprehension is fine I’m just a slow reader AND I’m bad about making reading one of the first sacrifices when I’m pressed for time) I have not. But yes I’m sure this shadow territory you mention has merit. Just some people don’t want to admit their privileges it makes sense that people don’t want to face the old mirror and see the darkness in heir own hearts. Or they might even not have any darkness, but are just scared of the possiblity that they might. I’m sure vulnerability… Read more »
“No one likes admitting the shadow stuff yes? Individuals need to do that work on an individual basis-looking in the mirror of self and confronting the things that are not pretty, not nice, not fair or just. Beliefs OR/and Actions. That’s the only way groups wind up changing yes? And then systems.” I’m just not sure how I feel about this. On the one hand, sure, everyone should turn a critical eye on themselves. That should happen with some regularity. But on the other hand, if we’re really thinking critically here, we have to be ready to admit that the… Read more »
Do you think we’d deal better with issues of men and rape if women owned up to the fact that women do and can abuse and rape? Or that more men would report if they knew they’d be believed and not treated like they’d been emasculated? Or if the society understood that men could be victims of women? I do. That’s what I mean about shadow stuff. Women and feminists need to deal with the issues that women don’t get considered as problems, but men do, men may need to deal with issues of internalized shame around not being “strong”… Read more »
Your post directly responded to the statement: “Honestly I think that some feminists seem to want to skip to the point where they have already moved beyond those gender norms and pretend that there was never a point where they embraced them or used them to their advantage.” This sounds like pretty basic privilege theory, so I used “privilege” as short hand instead of re-writing the whole thing over again. As for issues of men and rape, I definitely think that men should work on understanding that it is not emasculating, and that there is no shame in what has… Read more »
I’m legitimately confused. I agree that men need to control the changes that take place in themselves. And so with women. And so with anyone. But I’ve been hearing around these parts and other men’s rights sites, that women need to take some responsibility for engaging and keeping a standard in place where women are victims and men are predators, rather than acknowledging that women can attack men etc and that things like rape prevention should be more inclusive of “we can stop rape” rather than “men can.” That perhaps sharing honest stats is a good thing, sharing resources so… Read more »
It’s not unhelpful, but I’m also not sure it’s helpful either. Looking at this comment thread, I’m reminded of the comments following Justin Cascio’s piece on the “Five Things Feminism has Done for Men.” There may be problems with contemporary feminism, but it’s hard to argue that it didn’t provide some benefits to society. Similarly, it’s hard to argue that Slutwalk doesn’t have some laudable goals. It seems like the entire argument about “failure to be inclusive” is an excuse to gloss over those goals and the real difference that they can make. It’s difficult to believe that in the… Read more »
The proposition: if men were raped, then rape would be taken more seriously.
Clearly not true, because men are being raped today, and the rape of men is not taken all that seriously, at least not in the mainstream.
Especially when male rape victims are not only held to some of the same victim blaming as female victims but there is the extra bit of “men cannot be raped” that is still rather prevalent.
Yes I know female victims are shamed but that’s usually over the “type” of woman she is (“you can’t rape a wife”, “look at what she was earing”, “look at the way she was acting”). But bear in mind that when men are raped the denial can simply be “that can’t be true because men can’t be raped”.
It’s not just that, but also the type of rape. I’m certain that five innocent men would have been convicted in the Hofstra false rape case if one hadn’t video recorded it because no woman would have sex with five guys. There are even limits to slut shaming at least when it comes to women. I’m not sure if it holds true for men. The closest thing happened in Africa, but if I remember correctly, police were skeptical at first and investigated thoroughly after numerous reports started surfacing. I did find this article, but I’m not sure if that was… Read more »
Young boys are permitted to explore sex in most circles and attain positive status when they do. Some excerpts from the article and my responses: What do these two excerpts: “We want to reimagine ideas of masculinity and provide examples of healthy role models in behaviour” & “My focus as a male ally is to stop men and boys from using words as violence” Have to do with this excerpt: “Rachel Ehmke, a 13-year-old seventh grader in Mantorville, Minn., died April 29 after hanging herself at her home. The months leading up to the tragedy were a whirlwind of peer… Read more »
I agree with everything that you’re saying. However, why can’t the Slutwalk be focused on the particular subject of slutshaming? Why is that a bad thing? Why is it wrong to point out that many female victims of sexual abuse/assault are the ones being blamed for what happened? It’s not. You have made very valid points. And I think that some of the points you’ve made are even part of the problem that the Slutwalk attempts to bring out into the open. But many of your points about the shaming of certain behaviour by males is a separate problem altogether… Read more »
J.T
You said “I think the White Ribbon campaign is there to include men in the conversation, to show that women aren’t alone and that not all men are predators.” [my emphasis]
Surely that implies that most men are predators?
“You may happen to be male, and you may never have raped anyone, but that doesn’t mean that you are guilt-free.” Is this guilt by association? Guilt by class?
I’m not implying that most men are predators. I know that isn’t true. But you can’t tell just by looking at someone either. In order for women to protect themselves, they kind of have to look at strange men who approach them on the street (or wherever) as a potential predator. I do. For example, the other day I was walking home from work. I walked through a park and a man with a dog says to me, “You look like a dog lover.” I smiled and politely said, “I am.” I thought that was the end of it. And… Read more »
“And imagine I’m a woman who had already been assaulted. ”
I’m a trans woman who’s been assaulted a lot for “walking while perceived as male”. Enough to have full blown social anxiety if alone in public anywhere.
Never happened post-transition…so yeah, I think my risk of assault actually lowered.
Would you like to write a post on that? The differences before and after? We would love to publish it. Please email [email protected] if interested. Thank you.
Yes, it does. That’s how guilt works. If you don’t do it, abet it, or condone it, you’re not guilty.
I prefer to be guilt free until proven otherwise.
Sorry… I should have elaborated…. when I said you may not be guilt-free, I meant, guilt-free of crossing a line. Sometimes, the thought is, “I haven’t raped a woman, so I’m a good guy.” I’m not saying that you are thinking this, but a lot of guys don’t understand when they’ve crossed a line with even just their words. This is sort of what is meant when people refer to “rape culture.” It’s not that all these men are out raping women, it’s all the thoughts and assumptions that are included in it, like jokes and judgements about clothing or… Read more »
So for guys, Slut Walk and White Ribbon, are like going to confession? Repent and you will be saved! Now I know what’s meant by ‘all men are sinners’.
The thought is, “I haven’t raped anyone, so I’m not a rapist.” Other thoughts include: * Words can be hurtful and abusive, but words can’t rape. * You can’t cross a line from talking to raping, just from talking. * Louis C.K. is one example of someone who can be hilarious about rape. * Rape jokes aren’t all pro-rape. (See above.) * Rape is terrible. * Rapists should be punished. * No one deserves to be raped – not hot women, not ugly women, not men in prison, not altar boys, not people people who are sober and modestly dressed,… Read more »
Nail. On. Head.
GREAT comment. What I have, far less clearly and articulately, been trying to say for months now.
My vote for comment of the day.
I second, third, and fourth that.
We need something to counter-balance the deleting of non-feminist comments over at NWATHM.
“You’re not one of those murderer apologists, are you?”
You know, if you had ever been murdered, you wouldn’t be writing such hurtful things…. ; – )
@ J. T. “It’s not that all these men are out raping women, it’s all the thoughts and assumptions that are included in it, like jokes and judgements about clothing or sexual behaviour. That’s what I meant by not being guilt-free.” So men are guilty of supporting rape culture because of their thoughts and assumptions, but women who assume things about men are somehow not guilty. When people joke about rape (I’ve heard many women joke about it also), it usually concerns the rape of men (mostly be other men, but sometimes by women) and when it comes to assumptions,… Read more »
+1 Marcus
“You may happen to be male, and you may never have raped anyone, but that doesn’t mean that you are guilt-free.”
You may happen to be female, and you may have never raped anyone, but that doesn’t mean that you are guilt-free. How does that make you feel?
What do you do when strange women strike up a conversation with you because they’re scared of you? One time I was running to catch an elevator that had opened up to let a woman on. I glanced at her and proceeded to the opposite corner. She said hi, so I said hi. She asked me if I worked there, etc. I don’t think she was hitting on me. I’m pretty sure she was scared and wanted to determine if I was a threat. I answered her questions and got off on my stop. I didn’t feel like talking, but… Read more »
You have no obligation to talk to people even in those circumstances. Why not say, “I don’t feel like talking to you”? However, if you don’t do that because you think it would be rude or awkward, or might lead to some unpleasantness, well, that’s the same dilemma women often have when strange guys are talking to them.
J.T. My issue w/slutwalks is that it is about demonization of men and male libido. Also, when addressing shaming language the idea seems to center around stopping shaming language only or primarily when used by men against women. As I pointed out: the several excerpts about changing men and redefining masculinity would have had precisely zero to do with the young girl who committed suicide who’s shamers were female, not male. It is much more often that women/girls use shaming language to demonize other women/girls (not men). Women police other women especially women who aren’t afraid to make the first… Read more »
J.T. writes: “But many of your points about the shaming of certain behaviour by males is a separate problem altogether and I dare you to find a feminist that would not want to be an ally in your cause” That’s strange because when I post on feminist boards that many impoverished, depressed, minority men are also victims of society in a big way (and much less noticed, counted or helped by social services) the first thing they typically do is start slinging around insults that particularly pertain to my sexuality stating that I hate women because I can’t get laid.… Read more »
J.T. writes: “The idea that women are sub-human is indoctrinated in all of us from birth.” Absolutely false. What you’re observing is onely 1 side of gender roles. Have women in the past had their agency reduced/obstructed/stolen? Absolutely. But, what you’re failing to realize is that female limitations were male expectations. Before 1940 most jobs (besides working near schools or offices) were dangerous and dirty. Before organized labor pushed for worker safety laws and collective bargaining rights most jobs were soul-crushing, body-destroying jobs fraught with peril. In order to secure female companionship men were (and still are) pushed into proving… Read more »
Good points John,
I’d add that until recently men were beaten in the workplace as discipline (still happens somewhere I bet). In the 80’s (Australia) I witnessed violence, threats of violence and sexual harassment against young men in the work place and it was carried out by foremen and tolerated by middle management. At school corporal punishment was regularly used for boys, but was illegal for girls, that is gender based violence.
At school corporal punishment was regularly used for boys, but was illegal for girls, that is gender based violence. Damn straight. I remember that in elementary school. The principal would beat the boys with a large wooden paddle but would never touch the girls in that way. Like not even have a female teacher do it instead of the (male) principal. And John A you might be talking about Australia, I’m talking about the States. (venom) But I’m sure that since it “only” happened to boys it doesn’t count. Or better yet such a practice was actually sexist against girls… Read more »
In biology class the boys had to prick their fingers twice to provide blood or plasma for the slides because the (female) teacher didn’t think the girls should have to do it. I know it sounds petty now, but it really irritated me back then especially since I have an irrational fear of needles.
https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/the-invisible-gun-of-manhood/
All my life I’ve sought to protect the Women in my life. Starting with 2 younger sisters and all my Female cousins. That grew to my girlfriend(later , my Wife) , 3 Daughters, Mom, and basically any Females that came into my ‘circle’. Protect and Provide, my purpose for existance. So I can’t express my thrill at seeing a ‘Movement’ that declares me a ‘Potential Rapist’ due to my gender!
That’s why a lot of the laws get skewed. How many guys would take a bullet for someone they loved? How many men would rather take on pain than see it in someone they cared about? I’ve had the misfortune of fighting eight guys once and having the piss knocked out of me. I’ve also had experiences where the emotional scars ran deep. I got over the beating in three days. Some of the emotional stuff has been over 30 years ago and I’m just now coming to terms with it. If it came down to men designing laws to… Read more »
bobbt, the movement does not view all men as a potential rapist. In fact, I think we’d agree that most men are decent, non-raping human beings. Rather, what happens is that girls and women are taught very early on to be wary, that it is their job to avoid getting raped. This places the onus on women, and not on those who rape to not rape. There are far too many men that I know and have spoken with who don’t even know simple things that can negate consent – like intoxication. Does that mean all men are rapists? Again,… Read more »
“… In a certain period of my life where I was very sexually active with numerous partners, there was a quiet pride in being called ‘Shaft’ and seen as a ‘player’ or a ‘stud’ by co-workers both male and female.” Why is it that guys that were able to have as many girlfriends as they pleased and often treated them badly become born again feminists and lecture shy and socially challenged guys about how not to approach women? Jeff was was … like … such a stud … but now he totally respects women … awesome … what a guy!… Read more »
Ok, I’ll shoot. I was that guy, the shy, socially awkward one, for a long time. I got teased, never had the nerve to talk to girls, etc etc. Still awkward, still a bit shy, but also still a feminist, and more importantly I still respect women. Furthermore, instead of dwelling my failures, I learned how to *successfully* approach women. Ironically, it seems my awkward shyness actually works in my favor-I come across as friendly and non-threatening. However, I also know when to walk away, or when my presence isn’t desired. I watch body language, and I *listen*. Listening alone,… Read more »
Why as a male must I strive to be interesting? Are women already interesting, or are we already interested in them so being interesting doesn’t apply?
Umm? Because people (both men and women) don’t particularly like conversing with boring people? Being boring or uninteresting is definitely a non-gendered thing, and if I talked to a woman who I found wasn’t interesting, I’d rapidly lose my interest in her. Wouldn’t you? Seriously, I’m not talking about going out and becoming a stunt driver or a navy seal or anything, but if all you do is go to work, come home, and zone out in front of the TV, you’re not going to have much to say to people, and they’re not going to have much to say… Read more »
I noticed that misandry wasn’t on the list of things they wanted stopped. It would be interesting to get this omission clarified, but how do you forget about hatred directed at half the population. I can only assume that they’re for misandry.
Jeff – hear, hear. Great article. I’ve heard about this in the States moreso – is it going to spread across Canada?
Hi Marla,
Did you mean is SlutWalk spreading across Canada? From its birthspot here in Toronto, Canada there have been numerous SlutWalks planned across the country as well as in the US. Visit SlutwalkToronto.com for more info about the original group and the ‘SlutWalk Satellites’ !
Both the white ribbon campaign and the slut walk frame DV and rape in a binary that is at odds with reality.
While I think its important to change the thinking of people that victim blame, its also irresponsible and hateful to present domestic abuse and rape in the feminists binary, that in itself is a rape and abuse culture – because it erases half of the story.
Nobody thinks it’s acceptable to steal cars (save car theives) and, last I heard, it’s a felony, but police STILL tell you to lock your car, take your keys, and leave valuables out of sight to lower your chances of having your car stolen. Should we organize march’s to object to that admonition, or insist that they should go after the thieves instead of telling us to lock our cars, etc? From lawinfo.com: “In some odd cases, the courts have ruled that a person who leaves their keys in their car is financially responsible. The rationale here is that the… Read more »
I am 100% anti slutwalk. The message is almost entire man-hating, equating a whole gender to predators, and insisting that only men can be perpetrators and not victims.
Not true. There were men at my local Slutwalk, and they were there in solidarity with their wives, daughters, sisters, etc. Men can also be victims of rape and they are welcome to participate in SlutWalk.
Jess, just curious..did they talk about rapists being male, or male AND female? I’ve only seen the anti-rape campaigns mainly none I’ve seen have shown a female rapist, one showed a gender-neutral image though.
I read about a slutwalk where they had an all female section and a mixed section. The rationale was that women who were raped would be uncomfortable walking with men. When they considered having a men’s section they rejected it because one of the marchers may in fact be a rapist (assumed to be male) and elected to march in the men’s section. It wouldn’t be good to have a man encounter his rapist. They never explained why a man raped by a woman should have no problem marching with his rapist.
“Young boys are permitted to explore sex in most circles and attain positive status when they do. Some will fabricate or exaggerate experiences to gain notoriety among peers, at the cost of a woman usually. They even get status nicknames like ’Smooth Operator’ or ‘Don Juan’. In a certain period of my life where I was very sexually active with numerous partners, there was a quiet pride in being called ‘Shaft’ and seen as a ‘player’ or a ‘stud’ by co-workers both male and female.”
Permitted? How about “forced”?
Yeah it’s pretty much expected at times, who wants to be known as a virgin, especially in their 20’s? Hell even some women will call them a loser let alone other men. One of the most common insults in video games by the way is calling them a virgin, calling them fat, and treating them as if they are so ugly that they can’t get laid, a stereotypical fat virgin geek insult. Then you see the replies of how they have gf’s, etc to prove they aren’t this terrible fat virgin geek.
“Rape that bitch” – In gaming, probably has nothing to do with sexual assault but more the usage of rape means take by force, kill, crush, dominate. Slut shaming for women, virgin shaming for men, Society has so fucked up polarized views. Why is only misogyny on the list of policing bodies though? Males recieve misandrist attacks policing them in regards to sexual abuse. Or is this simply a gendered movement to end the violence against women whilst not caring about the violence against men? Why ask men to help out if you don’t help them out as well, especially… Read more »
I should further add yes there is a lot of misogynist bullshit in gaming, there’s also quite a bit of misandry, homophobia, racism, virgin shaming, pretty much every bit of nasty bullshit you can think of. I’ve heard all kinds of talk from violence against babies, kids, adults, old age, animals, seen talk of sexual, physical and emotional violence. The usage of rape I see most commonly though is to do with the older definition of take by force, and rape that bitch can mean destroy them viciously (not actually using sexual assault), but kill them with high powered attacks… Read more »
Specifically with regards to gaming…yeah I totally get that it’s not meant in a sexual way. However, it’s the same problem when words like “faggot” and “that’s so gay” get thrown around and people justify it by saying “oh I didn’t mean it like that.” Using a word like that, particularly in a situation where you’re surrounded by strangers (potentially) totally ignores the fact that someone hearing you might be gay…or in the case of the word ‘rape,’ might have been sexually assaulted or know someone who’s been sexually assaulted. Even worse though, specifically with the word ‘rape,’ is that… Read more »
Yeah that’s partially why I avoid using it. Although the word beating, and anything referring to physical assault is thrown around a lot, would it cause similar effects? A violence culture? It’s pretty interesting though that these games are usually extremely violent but those playing are worried about the talk, instead of the swords cutting people open, etc:P
I think it’s because it’s generally accepted (among gamers anyway) that interacting with a violent story is still very much in the realm of fantasy, or at least ‘not real.’ If I start bringing in real world violence (with what I say or do) then suddenly it stops being fantastical. Frankly, though, I don’t ever use violent language toward other players anyway, or even toward NPCs or mobs in a game. I’ll curse up a storm when something doesn’t go to plan, but not ever directed at anyone.
I like to get into character a bit n kill kill kill, but I usually won’t say it.
Please forgive me for not eully understanding this thread,as I’m too old to fully understand ‘Gaming’, but to expect someone to use sensitive and polite language as they’re virtually disemboweling someone or decapatating them, well, that sounds like something out of a Monty Python skit!(So sorry about that, old chap)
To be honest, most multi-player video games really aren’t as graphically violent as you might think. Really it’s only the hyper-realistic first-person shooters (think Call of Duty) and the fighting games (think Mortal Kombat) that are all that violent. Something like World of Warcraft, for example, is all fantasy violence, and pretty dang mild at that…in the U.S. it’s rated T (13 and up) and in the UK it’s 12+. And yet you get people using extremely offensive language even in World of Warcraft. Personally, I think it’s because the internet offers a sense of anonymity, so you can say… Read more »
@ HeatherN
Part of that is trash talking. I speak differently when I’m with friends. Some people may mistake that just because they’re with people with common interests that doesn’t mean there with friends. A female vice president once complained to me about the conduct of another employee toward her at work. I had wondered what the issue was because I’ve been even less appropriate with her on occasions. She told me that the other person didn’t have the history we had. Sometimes people assume friendship because they’re in a common place with common goals.
“Sometimes people assume friendship because they’re in a common place with common goals.”
Not just friendship…rather I think that people often assume that because they share one thing (in this case gaming) they must share other things (in this case have no problem with specific types of language). And that’s a problem.
Couldn’t the same be true of other violent phrases like “I’m going to murder you”?
Faggot and gay are a little different in the sense that they shouldn’t have negative associations to begin with. Same with slut. Rape is, and should be, negative. It’s an expression of violence, so using it in a violent context isn’t entirely inappropriate.
Yeah, that’s what I was pretty much trying to say. The similarity is that using all those phrases doesn’t consider whether the person hearing them might interpret those phrases personally – i.e. the person may be gay, might have been sexually assaulted, etc. But yeah, the bit about how with rape, using it casually can take away from the seriousness of the actual meaning of the word…yeah that’s specific to a term like rape, or murder. It’s using a term that is meant to explain something serious and negative inaccurately and making light of it. Whereas I suppose with a… Read more »
As for the, don’t talk to strange women, thing. I think it’s a bit like…alright…would you talk to them in that situation if they were a man? Like, hypothetically. Are you striking up a conversation with someone because, as you say, we’re social animals (and we are)? Or, do you see some hot chick and you’re hoping to nab her number? And, if a woman (or a man) does sort of brush you off when you approach them in such public spaces, do you get pissed off about it? (These are all rhetorical questions. I’m not like, asking you personally,… Read more »
Yeah… I wouldn’t ague it’s unreasonable not to want to talk to a total stranger.
Yeah hence the be respectful, if they aren’t open to communicate then you’ll hopefully know that quick and be on your way. Thing is even if you are talking to her, because she is a woman you’d like to get to know, is that actually bad? In my town I think up the options of where to meet women. They are usually friend of friend, nightclub (hard to talk), activities/hobbies/sports, social gatherings (fairly rare), or at the various daytime venues like coffee clubs, shopping centers etc. What I’m curious from this articles message is where exactly do we approach women?… Read more »
Well, except there *are* neon signs-it’s called body language, and the vast majority of us humans use it, consciously or unconsciously. Heck, the Schrodinger’s Rapist piece talks about that, complete with examples of what someone who’s not interested in talking to you, and someone who is. Do they have their arms crossed, and are looking down or away from you? Probably not interested. Are they making direct eye contact, and staying focused on you, and are animated in the conversation? Probably interested in you. And I do find it odd that you have so few places to meet women, especially… Read more »
Are you in a city? I am in a small town, makes it a bit harder I find. In regards to neon lights, people have to LEARN to read this body language first, there are plenty of people who find confusion with this, I myself found it quite confusing during high-school and into early adulthood. There are also individuals who can’t read body language, but that’s a whole different story. Maybe it’d help to give training to kids on reading body language? I know for a while I was expecting people to voice their concerns.
I have to disagree on this. Talking to strangers is not a “right.” That implies that the stranger you are approaching has an obligation to respect your “right” to talk to them. They don’t. On the contrary, they have a right to be annoyed that you have bothered them. Just like they have a right to be annoyed if you step on their toes or cut in front of them in line. It’s an intrusion. Maybe those are the kind of daily annoyances that we all have to tolerate at times in a complex urban society, but it’s still annoying… Read more »
Are there really any rights? We have the rights based on laws, but are there rights that if you don’t want to talk to someone, that you can walk around in public without someone talking to you? We all have the right to be annoyed yes, but we don’t have the right to expect people to not talk to us in public, if that makes sense. We have the right to be left alone, but that needs to be clearly indicated to a person and relying on body language isn’t a foolproof method as quite a few people have trouble… Read more »
I live in a city now, but I grew up in a small town, and I know how suffocating it can feel. However, that’s why we have the internet. Seriously, it is a really great way to reach out and meet folks in the area who have similar interests to you. Meetup.com is particularly useful in this regard, check it out. And yes, learning body language is difficult, I know, I went through that in my teens. It was painful, but after some trial and error, I figured it out. A lot of it was just observing other people, being… Read more »
Yeah I’m in my late 20’s now and find it much easier to spot body language. I’ve both been the person that’s fumbled, even said wildly innappropriate stuff (trying to fit in and mimicing other peoples behaviour in a group, doesn’t work:P), and seen plenty of guys and a few girls do it too. I think most of us don’t mean to make people uncomfortable, but unless the other person realizes you’re shy then they could feel threatened, I know I use to feel threatened until I started learning more about peoples behaviour and why they do certain things.
Someone might have very “open” body langusge and still not want to talk to a stranger. Maybe they are feeling happy and relaxed because they are on their way to meet s good friend. Still doesn’t mean they want to be approached by strangers. T
Well should we assume people don’t want to talk and just never talk to strangers, or try our luck and if they say no then be on our way? Btw I’m not assuming anyone actually wants to or doesn’t want to talk to strangers, I’m advocating that people still be allowed to at least try talk to strangers and if the stranger isn’t ok with it then they tell the initiator. With my own body language there are times where I look like I don’t want anyone near me, but I’m actually very open to talking to people. I wouldn’t… Read more »
@ Sarah “I have to disagree on this. Talking to strangers is not a “right.” I’ve been on both ends of this from both men and women. I’ve had women who I had no intention or desire to speak to talk to me because they’re scared at night (of me and of others). I’ve had men talk to me also. I’m on the smaller side for men so I don’t think it was fear. On an absolute level, I agree with you. From a practical level I agree with Archy. People don’t have the right to talk to someone (stranger… Read more »
You are right about body language. I’ve found that many guys are terrible at reading negative signals from body language and tone of voice (Some women are bad at it too, but as a rule, women seem better at reading non verbal cues). On the other hand, if a strange guy approaches me, and he’s not getting my signals from my crossed arms, lack of eye contact and irritated/bored tone of voice, should I really tell him, “go away, I don’t want to talk to you?”. How do I know he won’t react badly, call me a bitch or something?… Read more »
Hi Sarah,
I think you do have the right to say, go away, I don’t want to talk to you, depending on how uncomfortable the person is making you feel. I’ve said it myself a few times. I’ve also used, “sorry, I don’t talk to strangers,” especially if the opening line is “Hey Baby,” rather than a simple Hello or Excuse me. (Which personally, I think is the best opening line, as it acknowledges that you are interrupting the individual’s personal time.)
Do you have a point or are you just trolling, A Sex Worker?
Society teaches people : “don’t get killed”, “don’t get mugged”, “don’t let them steal your car”. Don’t get raped is part of the package: you know why ? Because it’s hard to make a criminal stop doing these things. It’ s much easier to prevent, lower chances of said criminal’s success : lock your car, don’t fall asleep when you’re alone in the train, avoid returning to home when you’re drunk- take a cab etc. It’s not victim blaming, it’s common sense. You don’t tell your kids not to take sweets from strangers or follow them to avoid them being… Read more »
Wrong. If you’re mugged, your statement is taken and the police will investigate. Nobody questions whether or not your window was open, whether or not you were wearing expensive looking clothing.
In what world do we teach “don’t get killed”? Are you living in a bizzaro world? People who are murdered don’t have to deal with questions about, “What were you wearing? Did you invite the murderer to murder you? You were showing too much cleavage, that is why you were murdered.”
“Don’t let them steal your car”? WTF? What bizarro world do you live in?
A world where people lock their cars, don’t leave windows open, have high fences around their houses, don’t walk through dark alleys, look around before using ATM machine ? Hell, I had my shoes stolen when I fell asleep in a train (stealing my watch was a bonus, I truly admire how they did that without waking me up). And yes, people question why somebody was so stupid as to leave the doors unlocked, balcony door open, keys in the car etc. Many things we do can lower the chances of us ending up dead, beaten or mugged. And people… Read more »
A Sex Worker, You are 100% incorrect. I will never forget the time I witnessed a mugging on State Street in Chicago. It was supposed to be a “safe” tourist area, but someone didn’t tell the mugger. I immediately called 911, and the police arrived within minutes. They then proceeded to lecture the victim for 5 minutes about how he wouldn’t have been mugged if he was “paying attention” and not on his cell phone. So, no, this does not have anything to do with the type of crime, and everything to do with the type of crime in general.… Read more »
@ A Sex Worker I think the reasoning goes like this. Normally, you need to prove criminal intent to establish a crime. So in theory, the case is not dependent on the accuser’s perception of events, but on the accused’s. Unless you can prove willful or purposeful criminal intent with physical injuries or something else, the standard becomes negligent criminal intent that means that the accused had to be reasonable aware that their actions were not wanted. They would also need to establish that the act was actually committed, the sex took place and the accuser didn’t want it. If… Read more »
“Wrong. If you’re mugged, your statement is taken and the police will investigate. Nobody questions whether or not your window was open, whether or not you were wearing expensive looking clothing.” Actually they’ll question all of those things and probably give you some (genuinely helpful) advice on how to avoid it happening again, like not leaving expensive objects on display, not leaving your house unsecured and intalling an alarm. “In what world do we teach “don’t get killed”? Are you living in a bizzaro world? People who are murdered don’t have to deal with questions about, “What were you wearing?… Read more »
Bullshit, if you were walking around drunk and alone at night, with money piling out of your pockets you get shamed, and made out for an idiot all over the place, and get outright laughed at. if you kept open your window, your insurance company won’t pay you a dime, and the police will tell you you are an idiot. Women being idiots and getting raped… nyah, not so much. The police officer pointing it out, in a very polite, non-shaming, non-joking, non-laughing manner even, is a massive exception. The last time one heard that shit was 25 years ago.… Read more »
Thank you, Jeff, for posting this!
So if words are violence and violence is generally criminalized in our society how far do we go with that concept? Felony, gross misdemeanor, or misdemeanor…? I always try to figure out where things will end up.
The laws vary by state, but in general it seems to cross the line when it’s sufficient to provoke a physical response, fighting words. It usually falls under disorderly conduct or violating the peace type laws.
Thanks John. And for the other post as well.