One man thinks being the nice guy, and teaching boys to be future nice guys doesn’t work. Here’s why.
—
Be a nice guy. It was a mantra that I and many other guys were raised with. We should be nice to everyone and particularly to women.
The message was clear. If we are nice guys we will reap the rewards…we’ll be successful, find a wonderful partner and have a great life.
Only it doesn’t work. Many men have worked hard at being a nice guy. The rewards don’t follow. While a man puts his needs and wants aside to be nice, other guys are getting the rewards. And it sucks.
On the surface, “be a nice guy” sounds like a worthy directive. But when we dig deeper it turns out there is a problem. That problem is how we define the word nice.
When it comes to partners, men are taught that being nice is based on two core tenets.
- Put your partner’s needs, wants and desires ahead of your own.
- Don’t cause your partner to experience “bad” emotions.
Those sound pretty good at first blush. However, a closer look shows that how those tenets are implemented isn’t really very nice at all.
It turns out that putting your partner’s needs, wants and desires ahead of your own is a very different thing than being respectful of your partner’s wishes and being willing to compromise.
More often than not the woman responds with, Yes! He will never say where he wants to go or even make a suggestion.
|
When I see this pattern play out with a couple in therapy, I often ask the woman this question, “Does he have trouble picking a restaurant when you go out to eat?” More often than not the woman responds with, “Yes! He will never say where he wants to go or even make a suggestion. I’m always left having to make the decision.”
The guy’s perspective is, “See what a nice guy I am? I always let her have her choice.” I’ve had men tell me that they feel it is rude to even say what they might like, much less suggest they actually go there.
At the same time, the woman’s perspective sounds more like this, “Sometimes I just want to not have to make a decision. I’m tired and I’ve been making decisions all day long. He won’t even make a suggestion. Having to take responsibility for it every time is exhausting. And, if he doesn’t like my choice, he still complains. It is like having another child in the house. I want a partner.”
Men end up feeling like they have given, given, given and their partner is still complaining. On top of that, their needs, wants and desires are seldom being met.
When men fail to express their own wishes, they completely disempower women from giving men what they want.
|
But how can they be? When men fail to express their own wishes, they completely disempower women from giving men what they want. Women are left to mind-read. It turns out they aren’t good mind readers (shocking, right?) Men are left feeling hurt and unappreciated.
Let’s look at tenet two—bad emotions. It is true that it is not nice to intentionally be mean or disrespectful to your partner. Take note of the word intentionally.
This tenet too often ends up being implemented differently. Somewhere it morphed into the idea that men should never do anything that ends up with their partner experiencing difficult emotions. Even if it means not fully disclosing important information or avoiding dealing with important topics.
Despite the hope that those situations will magically resolve themselves, they almost never do. The fact that information was not shared or important situations go unresolved comes to light. And guess what…the woman experiences bad emotions anyway.
She feels lied to. She feels disregarded and not valued. The only difference is the guy can use the cover of, “I didn’t want to make you feel bad.” Somehow this is supposed to justify not taking responsibility for dealing with important issues. And it often feels to her that she has another child to be responsible for.
All of this leads to a situation where the man feels like he has done exactly what he was taught to do. He keeps working at it harder, sacrificing more.
|
All of this leads to a situation where the man feels like he has done exactly what he was taught to do. He keeps working at it harder, sacrificing more. In return, instead of everything he was promised, he has a partner who doesn’t want to have sex with him, who says he is a child and tries to tell him what to do. He feels exhausted, frustrated, and hopeless.
Meanwhile, his partner can’t understand why all of her requests for him to communicate with her, to take responsibility for sharing in decision making, and to validate her emotional responses go unheeded. She loses her desire for him when he feels more like a child than a lover. She begins to assume that he must not love her.
This often results in the woman saying, or feeling like, If you want to have sex with me, you need to do things like buy me flowers, take me out for dinner, or help around the house. It’s usually some semblance of a list that will supposedly get him back in her good graces.
He grabs at the opportunity. He brings home flowers, takes her out to dinner and folds the laundry. And it doesn’t help. Because she hasn’t really described what she wants. She has described signs of the dynamic she wants. One where he thinks of her, and wants to participate in the relationship in the way she wants a partner. And where he does those things because he is moved to do them, not because she put them on a chore list.
Effort seems futile. And from her perspective, he didn’t do what she was trying to ask him for (even if not clearly).
|
It keeps going downhill from there. He did exactly as she said and once again didn’t reap the promised rewards. Effort seems futile. And from her perspective, he didn’t do what she was trying to ask him for (even if not clearly). Instead, he did the tasks she assigned…like a child would for their mother. Her desire for him as a man goes even lower.
None of it is done maliciously. Women may believe that men are willfully trying to be bad partners. They seldom are. They are acting consistently with the ways society has taught them. They behave the way they are “supposed” to behave. And this is where it brings them to.
Men, we have been sold a bill of goods.
There is a path out of this. It starts with changing the basic relationship tenets men are taught. These are the rules men need to know:
- Your wants, needs and desires are important as are your partners. Learn to voice yours and listen to your partner’s. Respectfully find ways to help both of you meet them in the best possible ways.
- Your job isn’t to avoid causing emotional discomfort in your partner. Your job is to treat your partner respectfully. That means being honest and authentic even if that sometimes means they, and maybe you, have a negative emotional reaction. They are allowed to have their reaction. They are strong enough to have them. And you are strong enough to let them.
These ideas are about respect, authenticity, courage, kindness and strength. They are the foundations that build relationships and allow men to reap the rewards they’ve been seeking. It is time to move beyond what we’ve been taught about being nice.
—
This post is republished on Medium.
***
The Good Men Project gives people the insights, tools, and skills to survive, prosper and thrive in today’s changing world. A world that is changing faster than most people can keep up with that change. A world where jobs are changing, gender roles are changing, and stereotypes are being upended. A world that is growing more diverse and inclusive. A world where working towards equality will become a core competence. We’ve built a community of millions of people from around the globe who believe in this path forward. Thanks for joining The Good Men Project.
Support us on Patreon and we will support you and your writing! Tools to improve your writing and platform-building skills, a community to get you connected, and direct access to our editors and publisher. Your support will help us build a better, more inclusive world for all.
***
Photo credit: iStock
“Meanwhile, his partner can’t understand why all of her requests for him to communicate with her” When you talk about men nit wanting to communicate, I think the problem is this. We’re starting from the wrong place. Instead of saying that the woman wants the man to communicate so he should is the wrong place to start. Looking at why a man won’t communicate is a good place to start, but saying he should just get over that is a bad place to continue. The question we should ask of him is what does he need to get over that… Read more »
Stellar comment, John! Thank You!
As I read the article again, it’s not as anti-male as I once thought. The basic message is good. Your needs are important and you should express them even if they may upset your partner. You should be authentic because that is the key to happiness and that’s where the article starts to fall apart. The metric used is that of the woman. Doesn’t that always seem to be the case? There is no discussion of the metric. She’s right. He’s wrong. What is important to her may not be important to him, but she thinks it SHOULD be important… Read more »
John. I think the question of whether to go out is a given. It’s the place. The idea that “wherever you want” is a bad thing to do seems silly. I think it’s morphed from the point that men should be “take charge” to be attractive. You hear a lot of that. Restaurants are the metaphor. It works, unless it’s the wrong restaurant. And when you hear about it as an attractor, there’s no “compromise” involved.
Richard – I agree, complaining about “wherever you want” seems silly on the surface. When it happens over and over and over it starts to feel more like, “you decide, I don’t want to have to make a decision.” And, if you make the argument that you want to be nice and let her decide then think about how you are disempowering her. If she never knows what you want, if you never voice an opinion, how can she feel warm and fuzzy by sometimes letting you have your desire? Constantly being the pleaser means that the other person never… Read more »
I remember another conversation between a counselor and a couple. The wife complained that her husband doesn’t open up to her. The counselor told her to think of it like foreplay. She doesn’t just have sex. She needs to warm up to it first. She needs to make him comfortable. She should start by talking about things he’d like to talk about. Instead of making a sh*t ton of assumptions maybe she should take things a lot slower. Don’t assume he even wants to have dinner with you. Wife: What are you planning for dinner tonight? Husband: I don’t know.… Read more »
Well, if the consoler is going to automatically side with her and the starting position is ‘The man is wrong, ALWAYS’ , I guess I can see why she would go that route.
I know it’s a metaphor, but did anyone even bother asking if he wanted to go out? When she asks him what restaurant do you want to go to isn’t she already asserting her will? Maybe she needs to ask what do you want to do for dinner tonight instead and give him a real choice.
So, she’s tired of making decisions all day? Who isn’t? Yes , I agree the restaurant is a metaphor. But I’m rateher convinced it’s a metaphor for being overly attached to a goal (i.e. what for a man is called “being outcome dependent” and is lauded in pretty negative words). It might be having this image of a perfect dinner, but not wanting to take the responsibility of chosing. Because then the result is out of her hands, and if she isn’t satisfied she can always critisize the person making the choise, i.e. you. I see it being played out… Read more »
@FlyingKal – Wow. So instead of working with your partner your answer is, I have it rough, too? Okay, run in parallel paths if that works for you. I hear women asking for partners that work together.
Paul Coughlin, author of “No More Christian Nice Guy” said that, when he decided he could no longer live the life of a doormat, he had no idea how his wife was going to react. Was she used to a doormat and change would be difficult? Did she prefer a doormat? Probably not, according to Coughlin. But, still, there is that moment when a guy asserts himself and…something happens. It’s not a one-sided coin.
Jay. My wife is an adult. She doesn’t need “help” with this subject. I do recall, however, that some time ago I suggested we go to a particular restaurant. She didn’t want to go. So we didn’t go. Can’t get more helpful than that. It was one we like and I figured it was about time. In addition, some friends, in return for a substantial favor, had given us a gift card for it. But she didn’t want to go so I agreed not to go. Was there something else I’m supposed to do? Keeping in mind that the restaurant… Read more »
@ Richard Aubrey “So if women don’t like guys who yield all the time, who’s left to sell this crap to young guys?” I think they do at least at some point in their relationship. She likes the fact that he takes her places she wants to go. She doesn’t particularly care to go to places only he wants to go to. At some point things changed. She doesn’t feel like she’s the prize anymore, but is just being tolerated or she came to realize that she didn’t want a lap dog after all. I wonder though to what extent… Read more »
@John Gottman Anderson. Yes. And men do that to women all of the time. Everyone plays a role. But that’s not a reason to be a coward. If your partner responds badly, work on that. Don’t put your head in the sand. It is about building better relationships, not just getting by.
With all due respect, I doubt your response to your female clients is you need to work on that. What advice did you give them to try to get their men to open up besides telling them it’s all his fault?
It isn’t about not making people yield. It is about participating. Your wife might not want help with some things. But when partners are constantly saying, “I don’t want to have to make all of the decisions all of the time” then they are asking men to step up as partners. Not assert their will. Not put their head in the sand. Maybe you and your wife have it figured out for the two of you. If so, that’s great. And yet there are a stream of partners coming into my office using almost the same words, over and over.
I remember this conversation between a counselor and a couple. The guy didn’t want his wife dressing sexy. The therapist asked how did she dress when you met her. Same issue I see here. How did he act when you met him? My guess is that he always let her pick the restaurant or movie or activity. My guess is he never brought up his own needs. My guess is he always tried to protect her from bad news and tried never to upset her and guess what. It worked, but now these things she desired during courtship she no… Read more »
Jay,there’s something you might want to find out,fo your own professional knowlege. Try asking your male patients (you’ll have to get them alone) how many stay in the relationship just so they can be with their children all the time (as opposed to every other weekend and every Thursday evening) the response might just surprise you.
Jay. Couple of notes. A guy keeps his head down because he’s also been taught it’s wrong to make a woman angry or upset. And trying to discuss why he had a point makes her even more upset. So he’s wrong. Note when picking a restaurant you don’t “compromise”. One person gets what he or she wants and the other doesn’t. Nobody serves nuoc mam on your quesadilla. If i were to put myself into the restaurant game–it is a metaphor, isn’t it?–the choice I make has a seventy percent chance–to pick a number–of disappointing my wife and a zero… Read more »
bobbt, it doesn’t surprise me at all. I hear it all of the time. This is about your relationship with your partner. If you want to stay in an unhappy relationship and teach your children that it isn’t important to be a full participant in the relationship, so be it. You also realize, that when your partner is fed up, they may leave and you will be only part time with your kids anyway. So why not work on improving your relationship?
Just so you realize, this Oct. 4th is my 40th anniversary and oh yeah, all4 of my children are happily married too!
Richard – About your couple of notes – You love to parse words. I consider discussion and agreement to be compromise. Also, why the insistence on “putting your foot down?” I have never once said anything about taking stands or enforcing your will. I have said EXPRESS YOUR WISHES or HELP MAKE A DECISION WHEN ASKED. Not tell your partner what to do. You discuss this like you are in a battle with your partner. How about being a partner instead of a combatant?
Jay. I’m not messing with words. Putting the foot down wasn’t my idea. You’ll find it on various advice blogs. Couple of years ago, there was a lengthy discussion at Hooking Up Smart. The conclusion of the site owner/advice giver and most of the female commenters was that if a guy doesn’t put his foot down, he’s a loser, a beta male, and he’s gone. It’s the dominance which generates the tingles. HUS is not alone in this view. Now, either they’re right as regards a significant number of women, or they’re not. In the latter case, where does this… Read more »
Jay. Not sure what happened to my earlier reply. Read what I said. It’s other sites and other advice givers who talk about putting the foot down. Couple of years ago, there was a lengthy discussion at Hooking Up Smart and the conclusion was that if the guy doesn’t put his foot down, he’s a beta loser and he’s gone. Putting the foot down generates the tingles, say the commenters and the site proprietor. It wasn’t my idea to think that way and, if that’s reality, it wasn’t my idea, either. However, if there is any validity, even a bit,… Read more »
Jeremy
I suppose a guy could pretend to really, really care about the restaurant choice. With practice, you could probably do it without giggling.
However, what is a woman’s responsibility when a guy’s choice disagrees with hers?
Richard, Conversation, compromise. Work together. Allow both of you to have the necessary information (in this case preferences) so you can resolve it.
Imagine this – Him: I’d like Mexican. Her: I had Mexican for lunch. Can we do Thai and have Mexican tomorrow night? Him: Sure.
Or, Him: I’d like Mexican. Her: I had Mexican for lunch but I know you’ve really been craving it. Let’s do it anyway.
Or, a million other conversations where people state their views and opinions and work TOGETHER to resolve the issue. You know, like partners.
Richard, you don’t have to care about the restaurant. You have to care about your partner. The fact that you think it is funny that your partner would ask for help carrying the load is part of the problem. You seem to want to focus on you, not what your partner is asking for.
So are you saying if he doesn’t care about the restaurant he should just fake concern to keep her happy?
bobbt, I’m saying your partner is asking you for help with something. If you have to “fake concern” when you partner asks for help then apparently you don’t care about your partner very much. It isn’t about caring where you eat. It is about caring about your partner.
And I’m saying Jay is that to me (and many men) it doesn’t matter WHERE I go to eat , it’s WHO I’M WITH that counts. I could be at a work function at the classiest joint in town. If I’m with people I really don’t care for but somehow tolerate, I’m not going to enjoy the food, wine ,or atmosphere! Conversely I can be at Appleby’s or Red Robin with the one I love and have a most enjoyable conversation and whatever they serve (as long as it’s eatable) will do just fine. What I would like to know… Read more »
If she wants me to pick a restaurant, may I ask what style of food she feels like eating that day, or is it asking for too much of an effort on her behalf?
I can pick a restaurant on her demand. I can even make up my mind and order my own food, no sweat.
Problem is if the overall experience in any way turns out less than she expected, if the waiters made some kind of mistake or if her preferred dish wasn’t on the meny, it’ll still be my fault for choosing a crappy restaurant…
I can only speak for myself, but I wouldn’t be interested in being in a relationship with a woman who needed help to decide what restaurant she wanted to eat at, or considered a lack of receiving that help a big enough issue to specifically complain to a therapist about.
I think it’s sold Richard, because that’s what women THINK they want. You know, this whole cultural ‘power grab’ being sold today. Only problem is, once she posses it, she realizes it’s not so great after all. Hey, I usually end up driving when the wife and I go somewhere only because she doesn’t want to. Of course, that doesn’t stop her from critiquing my driving or route choice or anything else, but when she drives, I take a nap. This drives her crazy as she thinks I don’t care. I tell her I don’t since she’s got it covered,… Read more »
Since this nice guy thing is such a lousy idea, the question must arise as to whose idea it was in the first place and why does it keep getting sold so energetically?
There are books written about it with theories of how it has come about. From my perspective it starts with how badly we teach people, and even more so men, how to both value and deal with emotions.
“Women may believe that men are willfully trying to be bad partners. ”
In my experience, a lot of (not all or most) women just do not listen properly or the men from mars, women from venus gendered communication gets in the way and it is misinterpretted. Just like the example of wanting him to buy flowers, etc and he does it without it working. When in doubt, use direct communication. Say upfront what you want, avoid using the words “always” “never” (you always do this, you never do that).
This presumes she knows what she wants. But truthfully, many women are unaware of what they want – they are too blinded by what they believe they SHOULD want. The bit about the flowers is a perfect example. It isn’t that the woman wants what the flowers signify in a man – a willingness to be the type of guy who will perform romantic acts of his own volition. After all, wouldn’t that just make him more of a nice guy, willing to prioritize her over himself? Rather, when asked point blank what they want that will make their relationships… Read more »
Jeremy
I am not sure how to interpret what you say here.
But if you think women turn themselves on just because a man dominates them,then you have some bad teachers. It is not so!
” women do not want equality”.
Hmmmmm, that depends on what you mean saying that.
If you mean women do not want equal rights ,then I wonder where you meet women?
Archy, miscommunication happens sometimes. But sit in my office and hear a woman say, “can you just please make this decision or at least tell me your opinion about the issue?” and have the guy be unwilling, isn’t miscommunication. I had one man tell me that saying, “I would like Mexican food tonight” was the equivalent of saying, “We are f**ing going to have Mexican food and you are f**ing going to like it.” Seriously. And I believe he truly believed those were equivalent statements. Since he believed himself to be a nice, he refused to express his opinion…until he… Read more »
The thing about choosing the restaurant is confusing. You will hear it endlessly in advice columns, complaint columns, practically anywhere relationships are discussed. I presume it’s a metaphor, but nobody ever says, precisely, what it’s a metaphor for. Or women are really, really psyched on the restaurant issue. Problem with choosing a restaurant is that lots of guys don’t really care. Most of us don’t like liver, but hardly anybody does and not many restaurants serve it. Wherever you go, you should be able to get a cheeseburger. We’re most of us a whole lot closer to gourmand than gourmet.… Read more »
Richard, I have worked with many, many men that have flat out said it would be rude for them to even suggest a restaurant. If they cared they would still not express a preference because they feel it would make them a jerk. And, when they really don’t care, they should be hearing their partner say, “hey, I would like some help here PARTNER.” Everyone gets tired. Partners help each other in those moments. I absolutely agree that whomever makes the decision, the other partner needs to be respectful of that. But men are just as guilty of not picking… Read more »
If ’50 Shades of Grey’ showed us men anything, it’s that women don’t get turned on by ‘nice guys’.