When men lust after women, it doesn’t just creep women out. Objectification hurts men, too.
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I was encouraged to think of men in a similar way that men are so often encouraged to think of women: as sexual objects. It was fun … and then it was painful, weird, disempowering and alienating. And I realized that’s how many men end up feeling, all the time.
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We should all know better than to reduce someone to the sum of their parts. But when social norms offer a tantalizing opportunity to get our lust on, it’s easy to just … go with it. Growing up constantly bombarded by the message that women are sexually exciting, men without the guidance or the life experience to know better yet are likely to see women as playthings and pretty pictures. Objectifying women sexually is so normal in our culture that some men may not even realize they’re doing it.
And it’s incredibly damaging … for the men.
The Energy of Attraction
Sexual attraction is the magnetic pull between yin and yang energies in people. These are traditionally gendered, but attraction is gender neutral; my yang could be attracting the shit out of some guy’s yin. We all have both, in varying degrees. Similarly, men aren’t the only ones doing the objectifying, and women aren’t the only ones being objectified. Any person can objectify any other.
I’ve objectified men. When Men in Kilts, a window cleaning company, was kiltily cleaning my windows, I felt the energy of attraction.
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I’ve objectified men. When Men in Kilts, a window cleaning company, was kiltily cleaning my windows, I felt the energy of attraction. They wear kilts, and cheeky T-shirts that say “No Peeking”. Which made me want to peek. So. Bad. These were average guys, not muscular or tall or especially handsome. But there I was, looking at them like kilty pieces of man flesh on the meat market of desire. That’s because I was actively looking at them sexually.
Engaging with another person as a sexual object, seeing them with lustful eyes, looking at them as a sexual being first and foremost creates an energy of attraction where none may have been otherwise.
However the energy of attraction is created, that energy forms a bond. That’s the first part of why objectification is so vile, the part we already know: it is genuinely violating to be objectified.
But the person who feels the bond the strongest, who’s therefore most likely to be hurt by it, is the person who is lusting, who is turned on, who sees this incredibly sexy beautiful person and wants them so badly they could die.
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But the person who feels the bond the strongest, who’s therefore most likely to be hurt by it, is the person who is lusting, who is turned on, who sees this incredibly sexy beautiful person and wants them so badly they could die. Objectifying someone creates that energy, fuels that bond, making it grotesquely powerful and consuming.
One Way Attraction
When I objectified those bekilted men, I realized just how powerful that bond can feel for the person doing the objectifying. I felt comfortable with these guys, even though we hadn’t said a word to each other. I felt a familiarity, as if the attraction were mutual, as if we were both in on it.
Though these men may not have felt anything for me at all, may not even have noticed me, and I wasn’t actually attracted to either of them, looking at them with lust made me feel that I had a tacit right to have whatever interactions with them that I wanted, because it felt like we had already established a relationship. I felt entitled to them, in some way. I mean, we feel entitled to be close to the people we feel close to, right?
All because their shirts said No Peeking, because they were presented to me as objects, there to please me. It happened in an instant, I didn’t mean it to happen, and believe me; I really should know better.
It was truly shocking for me to discover these things happening within myself, and if I didn’t have a deep, mindful meditation practice, I may not have noticed … let alone been able to name what was happening, and do something about it. All of this goes back to seeing others with our hearts instead of our heads, which truly helps us understand real attraction … which this was not.
The Loneliness of Lust
Is this how some men feel about women all the time? Bonded with women who barely notice them, lonely in lust, hungry for love?
I noticed the beauty and sexiness in these average looking guys far more than I notice sexiness when I’m out walking around. And I genuinely believe that men are beautiful—I’m extremely attracted to men. If I was encouraged to look at men as sexual objects all the time, as men are encouraged to look at women by advertising, video games, etc; would my relationship to strangers of the male gender involve that same sense of entitlement-based-on-shared-experience, that same I looked at you and you looked nice and I liked it, we are both in on this, we are connected now? As our culture changes and encourages women to look at men this way, will women suffer the same heartbreaking fate?
This would explain why guys are always coming up to women they think are beautiful, even if that woman thinks she’s giving off ‘don’t approach me’ rays.
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This would explain why guys are always coming up to women they think are beautiful, even if that woman thinks she’s giving off ‘don’t approach me’ rays. She may very well be doing so, but a guy may be overcome by the powerful energetic bond he feels with her, and not notice them. Even if he’s a well intentioned, kind, thoughtful guy.
Rejection Hurts
Those guys who just don’t know better yet, who are hungry for a connection, yearning for the energetic exchange of sex and of love, who are thwarted and confused, are operating at a serious disadvantage. They think there’s already a connection; they may even be overwhelmed by that connection.
When the woman they have invested so much energy in turns them down, they’re genuinely hurt, angry and sad. They’re baffled and don’t know how to do better, and are extremely vulnerable to corrupt, money-making ventures like PUA, which preys on men plagued not just by loneliness, but by shame and self-hatred and low self-esteem, and which perpetuates the cycle of objectification necessary to its worldview.
I’m not trying to excuse sexual harassment, sexual objectification, or claim that either of those things are always gendered.
I am saying that the heartbreak of men is important, that their happiness is as important as anyone’s, even if they have been led astray by advertising that uses their loneliness, shame and lust as fuel …
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I am saying that the heartbreak of men is important, that their happiness is as important as anyone’s, even if they have been led astray by advertising that uses their loneliness, shame and lust as fuel, even if they’ve internalized the messages of entitlement that underlie so much of our culture’s views of sexuality, and unknowingly bring those messages into their relationships with real human women.
All of those things hurt them very deeply. Those are the costs of sexual objectification for the person doing the objectifying. They are incredibly high.
Sex with Humans
The thing is, having Men with Kilts around was fun. Feeling sexually stimulated, seeing the sexiness in others, all of it is fun. Sexual attraction is fun. That’s why we like it so much. It’s fun and satisfying and fundamental to who we are. But sexual attraction is not dependent on objectification. For a lot of people raised in our crazy culture, it may feel like it is; like you can’t lust for someone unless you lust for their parts. That just isn’t the case.
What we all really want and need is so much more than a jerk off. That’s the reason there are so many jokes about the self-loathing and emptiness that comes with watching porn, and why they get so many laughs. There is a profound energetic and spiritual component to everything we do; the exchange of energy is fundamental to our experience of sexuality, especially satisfying sexuality.
We don’t really want to have sex with objects, with tits and ass, with mannequins. Even though it’s scary, we want to have sex with full, complex, sometimes crazy, always beautiful, humans.
From the Heart,
Kathryn
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This post is republished on Medium.
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Photo credit: iStock
And I personally think we all have to go back to the basics: honesty, trust, respect. When the basics are lacking there will never be anything ‘real’ and worthwhile between men and women.
The difference is that men still tend to think it’s a good thing whereas women find it superficial and wrong. Women see it as abuse, men then call it insecurity ( ‘ you know you want it, I saw how you looked at me, don’t be shy’ etc… ).
Written well.. and I think I can relate to it. Lately, I am feeling torn between a part of me which wants only sex, and the other who wants his love back.
the more i read about this stuff, the more i realize how distant i am from other humans. i wish other humans were like me, willing to not lust after people, and instead, having the capability to seriously analyze, understand, and connect with a person beyond their appearances. where are you, people like me, where are you located? where are the people who dismiss no-barred sexuality, who have truly conquered the primitive by-product of the brain that induces irrational lust over fleshy body parts, and instead celebrate the goodness of the mind and soul? where … ? it’s lonely. Indeed.
Hi Ace
Can we connect, I am like you and feel lonely too in this lusty world .
I really feel like this chick has no idea what she’s talking about… this “energetic bond” thing is understandable but you say it like it’s something we can’t control. Anyone can chose to become aroused and let the feeling take over, or you can simply ignore it and wipe the thought away. It’s rather annoying that you paint the person that’s lusting as the victim. Of course a woman’s going to push you away when they see your only looking at them as an object. Maybe some men/ woman should learn how to manage their emotions more effectively. I get… Read more »
Realize I’m late to the talk here.. Mrs. Hogan brings up some interesting points. I find her opinions to be so grounded in female centered thinking that she fails to consider the male perspective. For example, this comment, “it is genuinely violating to be objectified,” I found I had to read this a couple times, because this obviously isn’t coming from a male centered perspective. A male response to this question; it is? I think women feeling sexual desire is awesome. Why is it that women don’t see me as feeling sexual desire as awesome too? It reminded me of… Read more »
I agree with the whole double standard thing, however I don’t think it’s right for men or women to openly voice their sexual feelings when it’s not asked for or implied that they want it. In my opinion it’s rather rude to just openly “compliment” a man or woman with something like, “hey, you have a nice butt.” It’s unwarranted and disrespectful. And you have to respect the fact that not everyone’s okay with just openly sharing and or accepting compliments like that. It’s your mentality that’s the issue. Why is it that the first thing you notice about a… Read more »
Jules
Here is a study about the effect causal sex has on those who engage in it ,
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20444178
You say it is impossible to have causal sex without being objectified.
Since you never had causal sex,then how can you be so sure about that?
I respect that you have your values,but I do not understand why you are so convinced ,and certain about how other people feel when they have sex with another person just one time,
Why invalidate all us that have this experience and know how it feels and what it is?
@ Silke, Hello Silke! I have been pondering your question(s) for several days. You know, maybe you do have a point. There is another side to it (casual sex) I suppose. My thinking was along the lines of two people meeting and agreeing to just have sex. Unless you believe in bestiality, it obvious you are having sex with another human. So, to me it is all about sex. You perhaps care very little about this person or their life. Why? Because it is only about sex. To me each person must perceive the other as a sex tool. Something… Read more »
Let’s get back to the concept of objectification. Let’s posit another theory. There was a humorous comment on another thread about Playboy it went something like you don’t realize the number of unwanted sexual advances that Playboy spared you. The OP immediately condemned it as sexist. I thought it was funny and believe that it was put in the spirit of sarcasm, but let’s assume for the moment that it was a legitimate theory. What are the limits of objectification? I see a beautiful woman. Some may suggest that just admiring her beauty is objectification. Others may require a specific… Read more »
John
You ask “when I approach her …..haven’t I already signaled that I recognize her as a person….”
NO John you have not.
@ Silke That’s a pretty closed response. What do you mean? What thought processes do you think a guy goes through? Men can approach women in different ways. You can notice or comment on something specific. I like the author of the book you’re reading, etc. He could use a generic approach which is what I think you’re suggesting. Something that doesn’t require thinking about her individuality. I still would say that you are wrong. Assuming the man is approaching her because he’s interested in dating her, his intent is to maximize his chances of success. He may take a… Read more »
John I think we misunderstand each other. What I tried to say is that when a man talk to a women ,it is impossible for her to know his intent or to know whether he sees her as a sex object or not. All she knows is that he wants to talk to her. I do not most women think men see them as persons just because they talk to them, because women have to much experience with men that talk and talk and talk and still see them as objects to be seduced or conquered . But do talk… Read more »
Too true Silk. Talk can be cheap. Actions speak louder then words. I’ll never forget the cute guy at my old gym that was really nice to me, held the door open for me and always smiled at me and was friendly and kind. Then one day while I was working out on a machine that was behind the one him and his buddy was on, he was talking about another girl he had been with very degradingly and happily described how he humiliated her sexually then kicked her out while him and his buddy laughed about it. After that,… Read more »
I just want to know if the Men In Kilts did a good job!
Hilariously, Stan, they did not!
That’s not good, and very surprising. We don’t typically do a job unless we do a good job. Get back in contact with us and we’ll be sure to come right back and fix it. We have a clean gauranteed and a spotless reputation that we hold dear. Can’t seem to find your account in our system but if you could email or call I’m sure we’ll be able to find it and get right back out to fix any concerns. [email protected] 1-800-777-5458.
Thanks for this Stan! I should have clarified: There was a problem with one window, we called that evening, they came back the very next day and fixed it up so that it was spotless!
So while the first crew had trouble, Men in Kilts made it right 🙂
It is an interesting perspective. I know I certainly see women as beautiful and sexy people and while I don’t necessarily break them down to their parts I totally get how I feel a connection to them based on my desire for them regardless of the fact that we may never have even spoken. It is fleeting but it is there in the moment. Since I don’t really have any expectations from these connections I don’t really feel harmed by the lack of true connection. It is a thought provoking article.
Thanks Rich 🙂 I’m glad you got the point I was trying to make. I was really surprised by how *close* I felt to these guys, despite not exchanging any words with them. Definitely an interesting topic. Thanks for the comment!
If you read the side discussion Archy and I were having about objectifying people in everyday life. I feel there is a valid message. I tend to be like Archy and most people probably do. We’re polite and maybe kind to the people around us. I don’t know how much of a connection I try to establish unless I visit an establishment frequently, but I think on a sub conscious level we don’t actually see people as objects that may in fact be why there is a connection when you’re attracted to some one. Do people get the same connection… Read more »
“Not 100% sure what I’m trying to get at. I’m just sorting things out in my head like crowd sourcing a theory. What are your thoughts?” I 100% believe some people have rammed objectification theory so far down men’s necks that many men feel a real guilt for having feelings of lust, and truly believe they do objectify people in every day life. I think most people are like us, they see the other is human, not an object, but can’t give a lot of time to every single person so some relationships are mutually shallow/limited. That’s the whole issue… Read more »
@ Archy I get that feeling myself a lot of times. I think what happens is that some one comes up with a “good” theory, which is totally valid in certain circumstances and then some thing else irritates them and they try to force an association with this “good” theory. I’ve had that argument about rape culture. Rape culture is essentially erasing rape bu normalizing or downplaying or justifying it. Then people decide that rape threats to women are rape culture. That’s not rape culture because it recognizes that rape is wrong. It doesn’t downplay it. It knows that it… Read more »
Sounds about right. I’d talk to that tired stripper.
This opinion piece reads like another pet theory looking for a home – the male gaze and objectification. One more of the many corrective measures aimed at curbing the sexual behavior of staring lustfully. When prescribed (couched) as medicine that will alleviate male pain, adding some ying/yang energy references, then surely it must be good for you. The fault with the premise is not grasping that primitive lust and complex human sexuality are not mutually exclusive. The human mind is more than capable of being lustfully shallow and deeply and emotionally sexual. There is nothing to fix. That is the… Read more »
This is not exclusive to men. If women were so gracious about rejection, we’d never see female stalkers, no man would ever be “shallow-shamed”. There would be no “Real Men Prefer Curves, Only Dogs Like Bones” memes.
Men’s choices in dating are analysed and criticised all the time. Women are encouraged to be picky, men are condemned for being just as picky.
I can speak from personal experience when I say MANY if not most women don’t handle rejection well. The reactions can vary from awkwardness to hysterics, screaming and threats.
Wow this is an amazing conversation. Thank you Kathryn for the article that set it all off! I’m a little sad to see the defensive/offensive comments…but I guess they just emphasize the fact that this is a touchy area where points of view collide. My initial response as I read the article was appreciation for the deeper understanding it brought me, relevant to both sides of the gender divide…even of the *gender divide* in me. The comments have shown me that this understanding is not shared by everyone out there…good for me to know that. But I don’t think it… Read more »
@ Nicole
“Consent is certainly the piece that adds the humanity to objectification.”
And that was one of the points I was trying to make in one of my prior comments. If men are taught to objectify women, then haven’t women been taught through placing extreme importance on their looks to be objectified? Haven’t women accepted this role as much as men have accepted theirs? If it’s true that women have willingly chosen this role at least as willingly as men have chosen theirs, then is it really objectification if someone has chosen (consented) to be objectified?
@ John Anderson, “…then is it really objectification if someone has chosen (consented) to be objectified?” Yes, it is still objectification. But, the real question is: What’s wrong with it? Is there something inherently wrong with objectification? Yes, I think so. Regardless of consent. We have a society today in large parts of America where the modus operandi is: “If it’s two consenting adults and no one is getting hurt, then it’s OK”. Which I reject by the way. So, in the context of the current discussion, I really do not see a problem. In my world, there is a… Read more »
@ Jules “Is there something inherently wrong with objectification? Yes, I think so. Regardless of consent. ” There isn’t anything wrong with objectification. Almost everyone is objectified on a daily basis. Are we really thinking of the clerk as a complete person with hopes and desires and feeling or do we just want our d*mn whatever we came for? Same when we watch a movie or sporting event. Why is sexual objectification the boogey man? Well like I told Archy because it”s perceived to be something mainly engaged in by men. You can throw this in with those other articles… Read more »
“Are we really thinking of the clerk as a complete person with hopes and desires and feeling or do we just want our d*mn whatever we came for? ” I have small chat with them, I see their face, I can see if they are happy or sad, if they look tired I’ll say long day? and try bring a smile to their face. The other day I had a convo about a colouring in book I bought n told the checkout-woman about how it was meant to be as effective as meditation, we had a convo about how things… Read more »
Archy I also tend to have a chat with people I buy things from. This week I was out shopping for a new mobile phone. The man that helped me had a beard a fist long.I was not sure if he was a Muslim or a hipster.(the Quran say men’s beard must be a fist long.) His beard was extraordinary thick ,well groomed and beautiful. I complimented him,and he responded by telling me how he washed it every day,waxed it and had it trimmed by the town’s best beard barber! I had no idea our town had barbers for men’s… Read more »
I will just say that I do not think that someone who consents means they can’ also be objectified. I believe it’s a multifaceted topic and that you can still ‘consent’ to something, even a system, and still be objectified or dehumanized in the process. Alot of this has to do with our old wounds that we carry around with us and how we believe we deserve to be treated. We all want respect but deep down, there are tons of people who believe they don’t really deserve it so they ‘consent’ to lesser forms of treatment.
@ Nicole “I’m a little sad to see the defensive/offensive comments…but I guess they just emphasize the fact that this is a touchy area where points of view collide.” Again I think it’s a misunderstanding here, but some may call it a form of entitlement. You have a person or persons outside a group trying to define the experiences of the people inside another group. That is the push back that you’re seeing. It’s not like men aren’t speaking their truths for themselves. It may make you sad, but this may be one situation where it’s more valuable to listen… Read more »
@ Nicole, “Consent is certainly the piece that adds the humanity to objectification. After all, on one level we are all objects. It is only when the other levels are acknowledged that the dark side of objectification is balanced.” Unless there is consent, then we have rape. Right? But, just because we do have consent, does not mean we automatically add humanity to objectification. That’s like saying if a woman consents to being a prostitute, such makes it more human. Do you believe this to be the case? “After all, on one level we are all objects.” Precisely!!! Hence, I… Read more »
““After all, on one level we are all objects.””
Speak for yourselves, I am no object. Treat me like one and you won’t get my respect. You can have a quick perv at me and think of me sexually, just don’t get creepy with it or over-step boundaries. If you want to grab something, ask (I may let some do it), but it’s my choice who can touch me or not. If you stare at me, I will feel awkward as hell so learn to do quick glances and burn the image into your head.
I like this discussion !
It sure is illuminating!
Now speaking as a man who does have major desires for lust and love, I will tell you why it’s lonely. Inside there is this drive, a feeling, you want a partner, you crave companionship, sex, love, laughter, fun, etc. You see facebook or offline where your friends are happy with partners, have kids, family, their lil house they work on together whilst you go home alone every night. Your only intimacy is your left or right hand, memories of crushes or women you lust for, porn helps a bit since the feeling of lust can help bury your overwhelming… Read more »
Thank you, Archy.
Some people will never understand, but… just thank you…!
Honestly it sounds a bit like some women just don’t want to know men are attracted to them. You are a beautiful woman, men HAVE fantasized about you, they have lusted and thought sexual thoughts. That is 100% normal, and it should not be disgusting to you. If it is a disgusting thought then you need to examine what kind of shaming you’ve grown up with around sex. If a woman is attracted to me, high 5 to her. She can think whatever she wants, I hope it brings her a smile. It’s amazing, great for humans to fantasize about… Read more »
@ Archy, “Women/men forced to dance/perform sexual acts are being objectified.” They are sex slaves Archy. Period. “Even if 2 people only want casual sex with each other, it’s still not objectifying. They are not objects, their sexuality is mutual and future visits are left up to chance. They may form a relationship or may just be casual fuck buddies, they’re humans having a sexual relationship, not objects.” You see Archy, herin lies the contradiction. Yes, they are consenting. But, they are still serving as mere pleasure pieces. Hence, in my world, it is objectification. Why? Because without a genuine… Read more »
Sex slaves are literally treated objects. Casual sex partners have a limited relationship, but you can still be respectful. It’s not like you ignore everything about them. You have sex, you can still have a bit of a chat, can still give them a massage, joke with them, giggle, ask how they are. They are humans pleasuring each other. If they are objects because you mainly want one thing from them, then everyone is objectified. I pay a plumber to fix my drains? His/her worth is their ability to perform a limited service, I may never see them again. But… Read more »
@ silke,
“It sounds like you think that the number of times two people have sex with each other is what define the difference between using another person for sex or not.”
No. That is not what I am saying.at all.
Jules I find the concept objectify hard to grasp. In my city small Muslim girl wear the hijab , some are more covered up. The critics say these small girls are made into sex objects when they use the hijab . I think we all understand what objectify means when one talks about the fact that one person can be used sexually by another person. But can I really objectify men by looking at them? I mean if they do not see me looking. I wonder if the different arousal pattern of men and women makes a huge difference ,… Read more »
@ Archy,
“His/her worth is their ability to perform a limited service, I may never see them again. But quite frankly anyone who views people like that as objects is seriously warped in the head.”
Is this not precisely how most men view prostitutes and many other sex workers?
I dunno about most men, a good portion but I’m sure a lot are simply just horny and want sex without the hassle of finding someone to date, wine n dine, and go through the annoyance of dating.
Jules asked you “Is this not precisely how most men view prostitutes and many other sex workers?” And Archy answers “dunno about most men, a good portion but I’m sure a lot are simply just horny and want sex without the hassle of finding someone to date, wine n dine, and go through the annoyance of dating.” In research on prostitutes, whole 89% say they want help to get out of prostitution. That means that when those men visit a prostitute is it at least a 89% chance that she does not like what he does to her and what… Read more »
@ Silke I don’t doubt it, but I think that there are many people who don’t like their jobs, but feel forced to or trapped in them. Some are people who have “good” jobs and make lots of money (maybe like some porn actresses) and feel they can’t lose the income. Many of the strippers I’ve spoken to claim that they’re looking for something better (going to school, etc.), but still have to cover living expenses (or have children to support). At least with the stripper, she’s makes enough money that she can one day get out if that’s what… Read more »
@Silke, in my country there are legal brothels and women have choices to get out, get regular health checks, etc. If I stay single any longer I may go to one just to feel a connection to another human instead of constant rejection.
Not all sex workers are forced into the job, regardless of what some people want you to believe.
Not being hostile, capitalized parts are for emphasis only. “Engaging with another person as a sexual object, seeing them with lustful eyes, looking at them as a sexual being first and foremost creates an energy of attraction where none may have been otherwise. However the energy of attraction is created, that energy forms a bond. That’s the first part of why objectification is so vile, the part we already know: it is genuinely violating to be objectified.” You were sexually attracted to someone, you didn’t objectify them with your attraction, you think of them as an object because your mind… Read more »
@ Archy Who’s asking? That’s not a question. That’s the problem. People are more concerned with who’s asking than they are about consent or any of the other things they’re supposedly pushing. I’ve had discussions with people who’ve taken the whole approaching women is bad because you’re not entitled to their time, attention, etc. and asked if they ever asked s stranger for help, directions, ask the time or other information, solicited donations for a “good” cause, etc. I asked why they felt that they were entitled to the persons time? The response I get back is can generally be… Read more »
@John Gottman, amen to that. I believe for a society we need to have the “entitlement” that is it ok to talk to strangers. We SHOULD be able to approach someone politely, ask them the time of day, ask for help, ask them on a date BUT we need to be respectful in that approach and accept a rejection. If you never approach a woman you can severely limit your social life, I did this for a long time until I started to say fuckit n started making random convos with people. I use to feel like I was always… Read more »
There is a fundamental misunderstanding in the article concerning men. “That’s the reason there are so many jokes about the self-loathing and emptiness that comes with watching porn, and why they get so many laughs.” No, a guy is ridiculed because he has an inability to attract women. He’s a loser, a beta male. It probably comes from evo-psych. Women choose the best possible male to mate with so if you’re not getting any it’s because you’re lesser. “When the woman they have invested so much energy in turns them down, they’re genuinely hurt, angry and sad.” That’s true, but… Read more »
This is how I see it AND live it: When I see a physically attractive woman (the ass is going to grab my attention), I see her as just that….. A woman whom I would love to fuck. No stares, gazing…etc. None of that rubbish. That is the pure and raw lust within me. However, since she is a person and not a “fuck piece”, I need to get to know her as a person. Only then if the “stars aligned” and I thought she was good enough would I consider sexing her up. Whether my approach is objectification or… Read more »
Jules
Can you give us some links to websites where feminists tell other women to hookup ?
I have never seen this argument , so maybe this is the American feminist views .
But I guess they mean that women should not have sex if the other person has power over them.
@ Silke, Hi Silke! I think you misunderstood…sorry What I meant was that many feminist women see the newly found sexual liberation today (which includes hooking up…etc) as a form of female sexual empowerment. It’s like how many feminists see porn. Many see it as a form of sexual empowerment for women! https://www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/porn-is-super-empowering-just-ask-the-duke-university-porn-star No, they are not telling women to engage in hookups or porn. However, for those women who do, most feminist women refrain from chastising the behavior. Women are encourage to explore their sexuality. If this means casual sexual encounters, then in their eyes such is OK. My… Read more »
@ Silke Hello Silke! I tried to post a reply earlier…I guess it was stopped. I think you misunderstood what I was saying. Perhaps I was not clear. I have not seen feminists advocating hookups per se…Instead, I have read where when women say they enjoy hookups or casual sex, most feminists typically will be OK with it as it it viewed as female sexual empowerment. To me you are using someone for sexual gratification. Since it is consensual, I guess we can debate if it should be considered “using.” However, that person is still viewed as a sex object… Read more »
Jules It sounds like you think that the number of times two people have sex with each other is what define the difference between using another person for sex or not. I disagree. In marriage all over the world , it happens that one spouse use the other for sex. And not in a nice or respectful way….. Kant would not use his concept objectify in those cases but I would. It is simplistic to say that if you have sex with a person only once then that is using the other as a sex object while if you have… Read more »
@ silke,
“It sounds like you think that the number of times two people have sex with each other is what define the difference between using another person for sex or not.”
No. That is not what I am saying.at all.
What if the person objectified is really into it? My friends and I started weight lifting to assist the martial arts training. At first, it was simply functional. Then we started liking the way we looked. We started measuring our muscles. We didn’t just track our reps, sets and weight to gauge progress. We tracked it as a competition (Yeah, we were all alphas). I couldn’t pass by a mirror without checking myself out. We used to do Mr. Body competitions and had our female friends be judges. They enjoyed it at first then started to realize how conceited we… Read more »
Kathryn and Lola. bobbt is not saying the piece blames men for doing what the author thinks is kind of fun. He’s referring to the ubiquitous blaming of men by all sorts of people and movements. I recall seeing a picture of a public works guy kneeling and bending into a manhole on a street. The legs of two women, knee down, were in the picture. I believe the caption was STOP OPPRESSING ME! or STOP OBJECTIFYING ME! bobbt’s making the case that a woman can write something like this and it’s fun, cool, easy to grasp. Let a man… Read more »
It’s even worse than that Richard. I wonder how many women griping about ‘Male Gazing” have themselves been groped by the opposite sex. I’m sure some have and if the creep was caught, he was more than likely arrested or given a beating. Now I’ve been groped by women several times over the course of my lifetime (My ass grabbed, hands run over my chest, and even my genitals grabbed!) and when confronting the women responsible, after the look of shock on their faces that I would complain, I was usually met with laughter and “c’mon, it’s all in fun!”
That’s funny – that’s the very same answer a lot of men gave me when I’ve confronted them over the same behavior, and sorry, not a single one of them were arrested or given a beating. Nobody is saying it’s ok for women to do it to men. This article is about understanding where the one doing the objectifying is coming from and how it must impact them.
Bobbt, women are groped ALL THE TIME and men are not arrested for it. This happens at clubs where men believe your body becomes public property, it happens at concerts, it happens at sporting events where you’re just standing in line and a guy cups a feel, it happens on the subway when you are going to work (I had one friend where a respectable looking guy actually jerked off on her in public on the subway) and it happens at the coffee shop. Women are no stranger to getting groped and no one doing anything about it. Frankly I’m… Read more »
This is why MGTOW is needed. If you make women your whole focus it becomes just another addiction like drugs or gambling. You are only as strong as what you are willing to walk away from.
Yup
Wes, why is it at least one if not more exponent of MGTOW nearly always show up when the subject involves women? If you’ve really given up on the female sex, it’s counter-intuitive you’d even read the article. The message it sends is that you’re not going your own way by choice, but by circumstance. Believe me, I’ve met a fair number of women with the same problem. They say they’ve dismissed men from their lives when in fact their sh!tty attitude about those evil men has made every self-respecting male steer around them.
So when you objectify the ‘Men in Kilts’ it’s their fault for wearing a shirt with No Peeking written on it? Funny how when women present themselves scantily dressed (if dressed at all) and are objectified by men, the men are still considered the ones at fault, but then again, Men are ‘evil’ and ‘creepy’ when they objectify. Whereas women are just having “fun”.
Hi Bobbt, thanks for the comment 🙂 I would love the opportunity to clarify here. There is no one at fault in any of the situations you listed. It’s not about fault: it’s about humans reacting to a complex world, doing their best, and dealing with the consequences in the healthiest way they know how. Objectification, alienation, disconnection… those are no one’s fault. That said, when I accidentally objectified those men, I realized instantly that it was unhealthy and that I should have known better; and I changed my behavior. Thanks again for adding to the discussion. There’s no right… Read more »
bobbt –
I didn’t think the author was “excusing” women (or men), and I didn’t see her as assigning fault. I read it as a personal reflection of a time she was surprised to realize that she was objectifying men. She wanted to figure out why, then considered the implications of the objectification. She concluded that the “connection” was false/one-sided.
Then very generously empathized with men in her same situation. The result wasn’t gender specific – we all feel this way, but a problem arises when we automatically assume this connection runs both ways.
Yes, how generous indeed to empathize with those not as enlightened as her! You know, the men who objectify Women “all the time”.(Really, ALL the time? Even sisters, aunts, dear old Mom! someone like that needs help!)
@ bobbt I think she’s trying to make a sincere effort to understand men. I don’t think she was trying to be charitable although I think that’s the approach she took. If you don’t completely understand something, I think she felt the appropriate thing to do was to give people the benefit of the doubt and be kind. The problem is that people try to define men in terms of women. People often set the metrics up in these discussions to favor women and it essentially winds up demonizing men. It would be similar to me reflecting on my experience… Read more »
stupid site that the text is too hard to read and so much adaware, it was a fight to keep scrolling to read. Thumbs down on your website. Total unlike.
Kathryn
” I have objectified men…. That’s because I was actively looking at them sexually…”
I am confused here.
To me it feels perfectly normal and healthy too look at men sexually,and this in it self is not what objectify means .
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/feminism-objectification/
Hi Silke! Thanks for adding to this discussion 🙂
I meant that I was encouraged to look at them sexually instead of looking at them as full humans; similar to the way we’re encouraged to look at strippers.
I agree it’s perfectly normal and healthy to see the sexuality in others and acknowledge it within ourselves! Exploring the subjective experience of objectification is part of that work; to discover how it operates ‘in the field’ in addition to the definition you posted. Thanks again 🙂
Kathlyn
It is an important issue.
I wish men would respond here and tell us if they do feel the way you describe you felt.
I think men have to dress in something else than the kilt to make me be able to objectify them 🙂
http://meninkilts.com/
Reading a story on the web Silke about a pub in Scotland. The waiters wore Kilts, but they had to stop because too often Female patrons were reaching underneath in order to find out if they were ‘true Scotts’ (wearing nothing underneath). Don’t worry though, I’m sure it was all done in “fun”.