Ukraine, Trauma, Violence, and the Psychology of Domination Systems

Riane Eisler, an Austrian-born American systems scientist, futurist, attorney, and human rights advocate, is renowned for her influential work on cultural transformation and gender equity. Best known for “The Chalice and the Blade,” she introduced the partnership versus dominator models of social organization. She has received many honours, including the Republic of Austria’s Cross of Honour for Science and Art, the Nuclear Peace Leadership Award, earlier awarded to the Dalai Lama, the Center for Compassion Humanitarian Award, the Humanist Pioneer Award, and induction into the California Hall of Fame. She is President of the Center for Partnership Systems and Editor-in-Chief of the Interdisciplinary Journal of Partnership Studies at the University of Minnesota. The three books of hers of note that could be highlighted are The Chalice and the Blade, now in its 57th U.S. printing with 30 foreign editions, The Real Wealth of Nations, and Nurturing Our Humanity: How Domination and Partnership Shape Our Brains, Lives, and Future (Oxford University Press, 2019). These contributions amount to a second series with Eisler.

In this conversation with Scott Douglas Jacobsen, Riane Eisler reflects on trauma, warfare, and her partnership-domination framework through the lens of Ukraine’s ongoing war. Drawing on her experiences as a Holocaust survivor, Eisler explores how violence becomes normalized in domination systems, from family dynamics to international conflict.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: I will bring in a Ukrainian example. On the night of May 23 and into the very early morning of May 24, there was an attack. Typically, there is a curfew in Ukraine. Depending on the city, it varies, but generally it runs from midnight to 5 a.m. local time. I have accreditation, so I can go out, take photographs, and so on. Regular civilians, however, are under curfew. It has been like this for a long time now because of the war.

It was the worst attack I have experienced here. I am now in my fourth month in Ukraine on this third trip. It was the only time when we huddled in the bathroom, hearing explosions 500 meters away, four kilometers away, two kilometers away, in central Kyiv. I woke up and saw the light and smoke of a ballistic missile descending from the sky, followed by a flash and then an explosion, in addition to the drones.

They flooded Kyiv with drones, and the air-defense systems were completely overloaded. There have been a few moments like that, but in terms of genuine, overwhelming terror, that was when I felt it most intensely. I took my blankets and pillows and slept in the bathroom, hoping I would wake up the next morning.

My sensibility, after speaking with you extensively through our collaborations, is that domination systems are reactive to that kind of terror, but also culturally shaped by it. The experience is overwhelming, and you simply feel it. I am actually glad it did not shut me down emotionally. I am glad I could still feel. But that experience stayed with me.

Is that a key, not the whole analysis, but a key distillation of one major facet of domination systems?

Riane Eisler: I think everyone is, whether they are socialized into domination systems or partnership systems. Very few people recognize that violence is built into domination systems and that there is a connection between family violence and warfare. Family violence normalizes violence, if you will.

Jacobsen: What distinguishes someone who experiences deep trauma and becomes a domination-oriented person from someone who becomes partnership-oriented? And, to connect this to the theme of our series, could you relate a personal anecdote that speaks to this distinction as we close out our last few minutes?

Eisler: Well, I will tell you that one of the struggles I have as a Holocaust survivor is that I realize it was violence that stopped Hitler. In the same way that Ukraine is fighting Russia, the aggressor, it is very difficult for me to reconcile the fact that we sometimes need violence to protect ourselves against violence. But we do. So I am with Ukraine.

Jacobsen: The air raid alarms heard here, if you look at old Hollywood portrayals of the Second World War, it is the same sound. I do not know whether that association comes from cinema, but to me it sounds very similar. Different cities, Kharkiv, Dnipro, Kyiv, and Lviv, have different air raid alarm sounds. But the one in Kyiv sounds like the movies I must have seen when I was younger, creating a kind of vague historical memory.

Eisler: Those movies also serve to normalize violence, unfortunately.

Jacobsen: Very good point. Absolutely. I think one of the clearest examples is the James Bond franchise. It often makes violence seem glamorous and gives it a charming personality.

Eisler: It is what I call the eroticization of domination and violence. As you know, I write about it in some detail in Sacred Pleasure. Domination systems have to eroticize violence for women, men, and everyone in between, or else vilify sexuality along with women and blame women for sexual desire.

Consider the practice of requiring women to be covered from head to toe. Why not instead examine what men are taught? Men are taught entitlement. This has a very long history, long predating industrialization. Read accounts of the Middle Ages, when groups of boys and young men would conduct raids outside their dormitories and terrorize women. It is no wonder that “good women” were discouraged from going out at night.

Or consider the witch hunts and witch burnings. They were manifestations of the terror of violence. Violence was used to enforce domination through fear.

Jacobsen: I was joking with a lesbian humanist friend on the phone the other day. She lives in the United Kingdom and was talking about some of the severe cases being discussed there right now. She is a body painter.

I joked that I remember when these things never seemed complicated. I once had a one-night stand. My point was that there are very simple questions you can ask throughout an interaction: “How are you?” “Are you okay?” It has never seemed complicated to me to behave appropriately and respectfully.

Yet you are describing contexts in which some men clearly do not see things that way. What seems obvious to me does not seem obvious to them.

Eisler: But it is clear to some men, and it is becoming clearer to more men. Sex has to have an ethic. The saying “All’s fair in love and war” is crazy.

Jacobsen: That phrase justifies a great deal of harmful behavior.

Eisler: Yes, it does. It is a crazy idea. Of course there has to be an ethic. Even in one-night stands, we have to respect the other person. We have to respect our partner.

Jacobsen: Yes. I understand where some people are coming from, but I do not agree with them.

Eisler: You do not agree?

Jacobsen: No, I agree with you. I mean that I understand where some other people are coming from because I have had those conversations and conducted those interviews. But I do not agree with their conclusions.

It reminds me of my work interviewing Russian prisoners of war. There is a methodology for conducting those interviews within a human rights framework—one that is legally appropriate, respects the Geneva Conventions, protects anonymity where necessary, ensures informed consent, and follows established ethical standards. There is a proper way to interview people, even when they may have participated in serious crimes as agents of a state engaged in what international law recognizes as the crime of aggression, often described as the supreme international crime.

So I can understand certain perspectives without agreeing with them. In the case of interpersonal relationships and sexual ethics, however, the issue has never seemed confusing to me. I have never found myself thinking, “What if?” or “I do not know what the right thing to do is.” It has always seemed fairly straightforward.

Eisler: Well, I think your experience of being in Ukraine—and hopefully not for much longer—is an important one. It allows you to experience, firsthand, what the domination system is ultimately about. It is about winning and losing, and it is about violence.

Jacobsen: There was a quote, not a positive one, that I do not even know if it fully captures Mr. Trump, but he reportedly said, “I never forgive. Never forgive.” That mindset seems similar to statements attributed to Mr. Putin, where anyone who betrays him does so only once. I would have to verify the exact wording, but the underlying sentiment is clear.

Eisler: It is always “us against them.” He very clearly expressed the logic of domination. Domination is what it is all about. In that system, there are only two alternatives: either you dominate or you are dominated. Mr. Trump clearly chooses to be the dominator.

Jacobsen: That is actually a key point in all of this.

Eisler: It is a choice. Listen, I want you to reconsider staying in Ukraine. That is all I am asking. You are putting yourself in harm’s way, and I do not like that. Frankly, I think it is time for you to leave. Yes. Well, listen, I have to go. You need to leave Ukraine. I am sending you my good thoughts. Stay safe, I will see you next week, I hope.

Jacobsen: Thank you very much for the opportunity and your time, Riane.

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Scott Douglas Jacobsen is a Writer-Editor for The Good Men Project with more than 1,900 publications on the platform. He is the Founder and Publisher of In-Sight Publishing (ISBN: 978-1-0692343; 978-1-0673505) and Editor-in-Chief of In-Sight: Interviews (ISSN: 2369-6885). He writes for International Policy Digest (ISSN: 2332–9416), The Humanist (Print: ISSN, 0018-7399; Online: ISSN, 2163-3576), Basic Income Earth Network (UK Registered Charity 1177066), Humanist Perspectives (ISSN: 1719-6337), A Further Inquiry (SubStack), Vocal, Medium, The New Enlightenment Project, The Washington Outsider, rabble.ca, and other media. His bibliography index can be found via the Jacobsen Bank at In-Sight Publishing comprised of more than 10,000 articles, interviews, and republications, in more than 200 outlets. He has served in national and international leadership roles within humanist and media organizations, held several academic fellowships, and currently serves on several boards. He is a member in good standing in numerous media organizations, including the Canadian Association of Journalists, PEN Canada (CRA: 88916 2541 RR0001), and Reporters Without Borders (SIREN: 343 684 221/SIRET: 343 684 221 00041/EIN: 20-0708028), and others.