The Good Men Project is thrilled to interview Andy Horning, author of Grappling: From Fragile to Agile. His book covers so many of the topics we discuss on this website and our calls with the community.
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Interview:
Good Men Project (GMP): When we first heard the name of your book “Grappling: From Fragile to Agile”, it immediately struck a chord. You had us at “grappling” — because that is what we see so many men today doing. They are really struggling with how to understand their privilege, and how admitting to the role they have played in white supremacists systems means that they have to not only rethink their identity, but actually do something to change the systems. Can you tell us how you came up with the title Grappling?
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“Engaging in a close struggle without weapons” represents the fact that we have to go towards the difficult rather than away from it.
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Andy Horning (AH): I’ve been involved intimately in helping people change for more than 20 years. I kept asking the question: What helps people change? Why is it that some people change more quickly, with more ease than others? How can some people adapt to the changing world around them and inside of them with more skill than others? Eventually, I came upon the word grappling in an article. My heart skipped a beat and immediately I looked up the definition and knew that I had the word that represents the process of change. Those who were emotionally agile in the face of the challenges of change were grapplers! “Engaging in a close struggle without weapons” represents the fact that we have to go towards the difficult rather than away from it. The second step, however, is that we need to not weaponize what we discover in that engagement. Courage and compassion are keystone emotions that, if cultivated with intention, will offer us a way forward in life.
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GMP: In your book you cover lots of concepts, lots of information — we’ve spent years collecting articles and stories about all the concepts you condense into one book. Can you speak a little about your voice and your point of view?. Clearly your book is written directly to white men. You talk to them directly. Can you talk a little about that point of view, that voice, and why it is so important in today’s world?
AH: Too often, because of our position in the world, we have been able to avoid change. Advocating for societal change was left to those people who were directly affected by it. Those days are over. As white men, we have to step up and be involved in supporting change around us. To not do so is to be left behind by the progress that is happening so quickly. There is a zen proverb: let go or be dragged. More and more white men are being dragged behind the vehicle moving so quickly in the name of change. The second reason I speak to white men is because when we use our voices and advocate and amplify for women and black and brown people, it has more weight. It is taken more seriously. Unfortunately, when we speak up, the double privilege of whiteness and maleness bring us a kind of credibility that marginalized groups don’t have. We have to exercise that voice now more than ever.
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GMP: I don’t know if you know, but we ran Dr. Robin DiAngelo’s article on “White Fragility” on The Good Men Project long before it became a best-selling book. The concept of “fragility” seems so important get get people to understand why they are feeling the way they are feeling. Can you expand upon the difference between white fragility and bigotry?
AH: I first found out about DiAngelo’s work through the article. Thank-you for that! And I love the work you are doing. Generally speaking, its white fragility that leads to bigotry. Unchecked fragility prevents us from navigating our internal world of feelings and thoughts, and leads us to get stuck in old paradigms. Those ways of thinking are naturally bigoted because they exist in the past. If we can consider that we all have racist and sexist patterns because we are raised in a world that is racist and sexist. Those patterns are not who we are.
There is fragility because this is hard work to do. It brings up shame. No one wants to be a racist or sexist person. But how can we undo racism and sexism if we aren’t willing to look at inside of us when it shows up? Grappling is saying: “even though I might be experiencing shame, I know it is worth it to keep exploring, to keep going for the sake of the learning and growth I can experience as a result of it.” That creates a kind of emotional agility that is critical to dealing with change. Fragility is such a provocative word and it really is a kind of rigidity that always results in a kind of personal deflection. Not me. Don’t look here. And the status quo will always win. And when the status quo wins, white men win and women and black and brown people lose.
GMP: One key point we get from the book is that grappling is something we should all do — all the time. We need to incorporate it into our lives. and have difficult conversations where we discuss these issues in depth. White men, in particular, need to see themselves as the dominant group. And a key point — failure to grapple always causes harm. Can you tell explain the key signs men should look for to start the grappling process?
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Discomfort is the door, grappling is the room, and greater confidence and ease navigating an ever changing world is the end result.
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AH: Discomfort. Perhaps more than other privilege, entitlement to comfort around race and gender could be the most problematic. We have to be willing to see discomfort as a chance to learn and grow. Indeed, it is the birthplace of growth and learning. Too often, we make discomfort the problem and seeking ease as the solution. In reality, discomfort is the door, grappling is the room, and greater confidence and ease navigating an ever changing world is the end result. Maya Angelou says: “The price is high but the reward is great” and that is no more true than with grappling. When we run from struggle we are never free. And so turning towards struggle out of choice is a critical first step. Whether its the discomfort a diversity workshop brings or being called out as racist or the awkward conversation you want to have with a friend or even the overwhelming feelings that emerge when we see events in the world around us, they all act as an invitation to grapple. There is a saying, “the issue is never the issue, it’s how we respond to the issue that becomes the issue.” We compound problems when we don’t deal with them. See the discomfort inside of you and feel your pulse quicken as you know you are about to learn and grow and that this feeling will eventually give way towards a new deeper understanding of yourself and the world around you!
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GMP: Your book seems best for people who have a basic understanding of the unfairness of the systems of oppression, but don’t yet know what to do about them. Is there any hope at all for men who say “I just don’t believe in privilege” or “Sexism and racism just don’t exist anymore”?
AH: I think those who don’t believe that racism and sexism exist live on a shrinking island. And that island requires an increasing effort to keep the waters of change at bay. As King wrote: “The arc of the moral universe is long but it bends towards justice.” Change is coming to us all. The world around us is bending towards change. We can take the same amount of energy and use that to attempt to keep our world the same, or we can let go and learn to navigate that change. It requires the same amount of effort. Women and black and brown people will continue to gain rights and privileges as equal beings in our country. It is inevitable. Do we want to be on the right side of history? That choice will continue to be more stark as time moves forward.
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Grappling asks that we see the future for white men is one of allowing the world to change us.
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As white men there are 3 stages of our relationship to the world. For centuries we have been told to leave our mark, create our legacy, change the world. Now we are living in the second stage which is to change yourself and then change the world. Grappling asks that we see the future for white men is one of allowing the world to change us. It is not a sign of weakness but one of deep power, to open up to world in a way that it moves us to be a different human being. The world is calling us to be different. And thats a good thing. The weak among us will continue to cling to old paradigms getting stuck in feelings of defensiveness, confusion, and resentment.
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GMP: What is your favorite part of this book?
AH: I love this question! Thanks for asking it. It really was the reason I wrote the book. I’m in an undoing racism workshop 5 years ago, and there are a few white folks who aren’t happy with the material. They are raising their hands and disagreeing with the material. Finally the facilitator says: “Look you know you have privilege when equity feels like discrimination.” Their feeling of being discriminated against as white people, was the very sign of their privilege. My mind was blown right then. My work in the field of personal growth could be the thing that could help people integrate this information better. If we can’t deal with the feelings inside of us that challenging topics bring, we will reject those topics to restore a kind of personal equilibrium. If I could find a way to help people navigate their internal emotional world, they would be better learners of the need for systemic change in the society around them. Further, white men had a kind of double privilege that was both potent but also problematic. We have so much but our skills around grappling with our feelings is limited.
I continue to think about that moment over and over again. And while it didn’t necessary move the workshop along, it gave me an insight into the power of feelings as a way towards external systemic change.
About Andrew Horning
Andrew Horning is a coach and teacher at the Hoffman Institute, an organization dedicated to transformative education, spiritual growth, and dimensional leadership for those seeking clarity in their personal and professional lives. As the creator and host of the podcast Elephant Talk, Andrew encourages couples to have courageous conversations for the sake of a deeper connection. He’s the co-host of The Hoffman Podcast, a keynote speaker, and a volunteer and former board chair for Intercambio Uniting Communities. Andrew earned his master’s degree in clinical social work from the University of Michigan and is a former licensed private-practice psychotherapist. He lives in Boulder, Colorado with his wife of nearly two decades and their two children.
photo: iStock
