Statistics don’t make us safe, Lisa Hickey says. Self-empowerment and facing our fears do.
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My daughter is having trouble with her asthma, and I have to get her to the doctor’s. She comes out of school, gets in the car, is dismayed because she forgot her textbook and wants to study in the doctor’s office. Her breathing is already labored.
So I’m elected to run into the school and get the book. “Third floor, Mom. Upstairs, take a left, then right, all the way at the end. Hurry, please.” I dash in the door while someone is coming out; school is about to get dismissed. Run past the admin offices: a meeting is just starting. I hear someone say, “Who’s that?” They glance out, decide I’m not a threat, smile and close the door. I don’t know anyone at this school, haven’t been to the requisite PTA meeting yet. I run to the stairwell and dash up the stairs, where a custodian, mopping, shouts, “Careful! Don’t run!” I run, anyway. At the top of the stairs I forget what Shannon said, “Left then right? “Right then left?” I text her to ask, and as I’m fumbling with my phone a couple of teachers pass by and say “you look confused, can we help you?” Her text beeps in, I say to the teachers, “I’m good” and proceed to her locker.
None of this would make for a particularly compelling story, were it not for one thing. Earlier that day, I had gotten a phone call, a recorded announcement from the principal of the school. “I would like to inform all parents,” said the voice, seriously. “That today at 11:30 am we had an incident. An unknown male was seen entering the building. He could not be identified, and so, as a precaution, we put the entire school in a lockdown while we sought out his intentions.”
You put the entire school in a lockdown?
If anyone’s actions needed to be questioned, surely it was mine—I was not only unknown, but running through the halls, acting confused, receiving directions through outside texts. And yet not only were my intentions not questioned, but nobody even asked who I was.
We get ourselves in a tizzy over “racial profiling,” but surely this is “gender profiling?” An unknown male enters a school. An unknown female enters and the entire school system protocol changes. I was allowed to roam free because I was a woman.
♦◊♦
I cannot remember a time when my actions have been treated with suspicion. I can remember a host of times when I have been suspicious, myself. Mostly, of men. And it has so permeated our society; I’ve been socialized for so long to accept this as normal that I haven’t even noticed.
When I look back on my life on how perception equals reality, I have to say this: both men and women have harmed me in equal measure. If I think about the sum total of lies, stealing, physical abuse, sexual abuse—it’s been about equal. Sexual abuse more male, stealing, more female. But overall, “things that have caused me harm” have been about the same when looked at through the lens of gender.
Here’s where you could trot out the statistics—but please don’t. Yes, I live my life based on certain statistics—I use sunblock, eat fruits and vegetables, and wear a bike helmet. Understanding how to act based on statistical data in all those cases has consequences for the quality of my life. The numbers are used to scare me, it works, and I take action. I slather on SPF 45, grab an apple, and put the helmet on.
Few of those things designed to cause fear invoked the persistent sense of panic throughout my life the way that being afraid of men had on my psyche. And what I needed to do was to find a way to deal with that fear, not not argue over the statistical validity of whether those fears were valid.
♦◊♦
I remember, after a spate of serial killings—the ones where a man often killed his victims after he stopped to fix their cars—my sister called me up in a panic. She wanted me to make sure I heeded the warning she saw on the news. Women who break down on the side of the road should not even stay in their cars; they were advised to run into the woods and hide until they saw the flashing blue lights of a police car.
And this, to me, sums up exactly what is wrong with the way we are socialized. Instead of teaching women to fear men, we should be teaching women to fix their cars.
There’s a lot less worry about a car breaking down on a deserted street somewhere if it’s maintained and you can change a flat tire in less than 10 minutes. I have done so while eight months pregnant.
The best way to overcome fear is to gain competence.
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As a woman, I’ve seen “The Presumption of Male Guilt” get played out in the workplace all the time. Sure, sexism still exists. There’s individual sexism and there’s institutional sexism (which sometimes gets called “Teh Patriarchy”). I don’t deny its existence. But I often think that as women, we’re taught so much to look out for sexism that that’s all we see.
And so, as women, we’re afraid. We’re often afraid to ask for the salary we want, look for innovative ways to both be parents and to lead companies, and we’re afraid to gain the skills we really need to get ahead.
But the wrong approach, in my opinion, is to presume men are guilty because they are men. A better strategy is to gain the competence you need to succeed. Not all men make it to the top slots either. The ones who have are usually there because they figured out what needed to be done and did it.
Eric M.. a frequent commenter here at Good Men Project, had a commented on the statistic about the fact that 87% of Congress is male. His comment was, “In many races, NO women run. So, what are voters supposed to do? Elect no one, or choose from the men who bother to run? Is the feminist movement not aware that women would represent 50% of the electorate if they were 50% of candidates? Since women are the majority of the voters, shouldn’t the feminist movement be chastising them for not running (or at least encouraging them to run way more), rather than using the fact that they don’t run as justification for demonizing us regular guys who have nothing to do with political decisions?”
We can presume men are guilty for holding public office, or we can choose, as an individual, to do something about it.
♦◊♦
Look, I’m a CEO of a VC-backed national consumer company—the kind of position said to be held by only around eight percent of women.
Has it been easy? No. Have I made tons of mistakes? Sure. Have I stopped at one of those mistakes and said, “Oh, it’s too hard, it must be that damn patriarchy again.” No. I’ve figured it out and kept going. It’s hard because it’s hard.
I’ve read that most CEOs of large companies—male or female—are there because they kept going long after most people would have given up. That, I believe.
I don’t care what gender you are, learning how to negotiate, what you need for a business plan, how to raise VC money—all the things that make it hard. Learning those things is the business equivalent of learning to maintain and fix a car. You learn to navigate the corporate structure without fear, and you succeed by gaining competence. And then it’s up to you to go out and do it. As Ghandi so famously said, “be the change you want to see in the world.” That’s what he meant.
♦◊♦
I consider myself an “equalist.” I am just as concerned, if not more concerned, with racism, ageism, classism as I am with sexism. The “isms” are the marginalization of people we don’t feel comfortable with. And marginalization is the presumption that someone is somehow inferior for something they can’t change. Their gender, their age, the economic level in which they were born.
A while ago, I came across an interesting statement when I was doing research for our series On The Environment. “Ecofeminism is seen as the connection of the environmental movement and the feminism movement. It is one of the only movements that combines multiple social movements.” The thing that is interesting to me has nothing to do with “ecofeminism”. What’s interesting to me is this idea of “combining multiple social movements”—and how rare that is.
Yet—that is what we are doing here at The Good Men Project. We are about “men’s issues”—first and foremost, absolutely. But men’s issues are men’s issues, in part because society has been structured around a patriarchy, and the patriarchy is changing.
And, in some very fundamental way, we are creating multiple social movements around a variety of important issues—as they relate to men:
- Race
- Gender
- Sex/Porn/Sex Trade/ Sexual Abuse
- Sexism
- Ageism / Women and Beauty
- Education
- Homosexuality
- The New Dad
- Marriage, Divorce
- Prison Reform
- Class/Poverty/Homelessness/Unemployment
The thing that these all have in common (besides men)—is that they are all about one thing: They are problems because they are based on the fact that we marginalize people we are uncomfortable with. “Social movements” eliminate that marginalization by bringing people together for a common cause. And who better than “The New Male Patriarchy” to take a leadership role in de-marginalizing?
So let’s talk about stuff—related to men, of interest to men. Change what needs to be changed, with all the stuff that is good—actually great—about men, let’s just keep that the way it is.
But “presumption of male guilt”—let’s just eliminate that, shall we?
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photo: Bao Tri Nguyen Phuoc / Flickr
We should also be teaching women how to use guns. Another more efficient way to resolve fear of men and marginalized groups. Maybe then women won’t cross the street when a man is walking toward them on the same sidewalk. Whether they do that for safety or not, it is outright insulting.
Teach defense. Not fear.
The base remains on your map until you conquer it and you want to save
your attack until they’re saving up for an upgrade.
I thoroughly agree with that it is bad to make women fear men and I refuse to be afraid so I travel alone, I pursue a traditionally male type of career and frequently walk outside alone in the middle of the night against everybody’s advice (I write a lot and like to work at night because it is quiet, as a break I often go for a walk and even frequently drop by a nightcafé filled with buff male taxidrivers). I think it is a pity that not more women do this, because if they would I would not be… Read more »
I wish I could edit. I want to add this for clarity: I think that women are made to fear men so as to limit their freedom and keep them under control. Statistics help keeping women afraid. I wish more women would see it and would stand up to it by refusing to fear men. You are right there. I just don’t agree with you putting all the burden on women, as if they should learn to be competent (suggesting they are incompetent at the moment and that’s what holding them back, not sexism), just not so easily quit (suggesting… Read more »
“I want to add this for clarity: I think that women are made to fear men so as to limit their freedom and keep them under control. ” I think that’s a pretty significant claim to victimhood. But I’ll humor you for a moment… What group currently uses rape threats to promote the greatest amount of fear in women, and thus, what group is currently trying to exert that control? “I just don’t agree with you putting all the burden on women” I don’t. I don’t believe in absolutes, so I can’t put the responsibility all on women, and to… Read more »
“..etc. Women are expected to ‘stay out of dangerous situations’.” Is this expectation placed “SOLELY” on women? Or is it likewise placed on men? Remember, feminism claims to want equality, and if men are likewise expected to be responsible for their own safety, that expectation being placed on you IS equality. of course, you could demand special treatment because you’re a woman, but that’s female supremacy. “Instead, tell men to not create dangerous situations.” I’m sorry, I wasn’t aware that our laws didn’t carry an explicit expectation for it’s citizen NOT to perform those criminal acts. Let me go right… Read more »
This is a great article. From all the arguments here, i can say that fear is a real inhibitor in women’s lives and it’s the real reason bad men get away with a lot of things. Like for instance, rapists love the look of fear in their victims, the real reason why the rapists get away with it is because the women defeat themselves already once they see the attacker-not to blame the victims here but I really think that the level of rape would reduce substantially if women ACTUALLY fought back. Everywhere we go, we are told that we… Read more »
If there were a female candidate in every race and if the female majority voted for her the percentage of women in elected office would be 100% Oddly, this doesn’t happen. They’re rather vote for the guy who reminds them of Kevin Kostner.
Apparently it’s much easier, efficient and effective to have the man as your sock puppet (re. Joe Biden) than run for office yourself. And you get all the benefits.
This is the power of having a uterus.
I’m glad I’m not part of the “female majority”. Voting for a man (or being with someone) based on LOOKS alone – that has to be be at least close to ultimate stupidity. I suppose some women do that and I am positive there are a few guys who care only about surface and public image; I’ve met a couple. Thankfully, not many males are that shallow.
“”Since women are the majority of the voters, shouldn’t the feminist movement be chastising them for not running (or at least encouraging them to run way more), rather than using the fact that they don’t run as justification for demonizing us regular guys who have nothing to do with political decisions?”” This is so true. I’ve thought about this a lot. Why isn’t something as simple as this a big part of feminist rhetoric? Run for office! There is teh self-defeatist attitude that places being “right” over succeeding and I also think that there is an ideological selfishness, a lack… Read more »
“Why isn’t something as simple as this a big part of feminist rhetoric?” Because it’s safer the way they’re doing it now. The political feminists tend to run their organizations in the same way as a marriage, them as the demanding wife, the husband/government expected to do the heavy lifting and take any blame. Really, how is the way NOW interacts with government any different than the way Michelle Obama interacts with Barack? She wasn’t elected president, but she might as well have been given the influence she has. But she will never have to answer for the outcomes. She… Read more »
Uh…or it could be because we’re busy raising children while also making a living? We still do most of the household and childrearing work, and most of us also have jobs. Explain please when we have time for political campaigns? I got asked to run several years ago. I had to decline. I had a toddler and a disabled husband: it wasn’t going to work. I’m now a single working mom. I don’t have a wonderful live-in grandma ready to take over the mom role, nor a trust fund. Nobody else is here to drive to the swim lessons and… Read more »
“Uh…or it could be because we’re busy raising children while also making a living? ” I call bullshit. 1: This is a choice many women choose to make, ether by having children with men who never wanted to be fathers (thus ensuring they will be primary caregivers), by choosing to be stay at home mothers, or choosing to get divorced and insist on sole custody rather than equal/shared custody. 2: Many women have men who are supportive of them and would be more than willing to take up the childcare responsibility. 3: What about all the childless women, and those… Read more »
“There’s a lot less worry about a car breaking down on a deserted street somewhere if it’s maintained and you can change a flat tire in less than 10 minutes. I have done so while eight months pregnant. The best way to overcome fear is to gain competence.” I think it needs to be taken into consideration that the fear of or reality of rape is sufficiently pervasive in society that women are differently socialized.than men and as a result develop different skills as they developing. If you can’t hang out and be alone with men because your worried that… Read more »
Wait, it’s radical feminism to be aware that strange men can be a threat because they might rape you?
Lisa, you hit the nail on the head with the comments about presumption of male guilt. Having worked for Head Start for a time, I often had to make visits to centers where I was the only (adult) male face seen all day. I saw the suspicious stares; I felt their silent judgment. Society can give lip service to “the importance of male role models,” etc etc all it wants, but until men who work in fields involving contact with children are not viewed with suspicion simply for being male, their words are lost on me. I’ve gotten out of… Read more »
Thanks Drood,
Part of what we’re trying to do here is just get people to see things from the other perspective. Glad this resonated with you. Hope you find a way to be a role model again.
drood, I’m sorry you’ve had to pay that price. My daughter went to a daycare run by a man, and several key staffers were men. That said, I do vet male caregivers much more carefully than I vet women. It’s unusual for a man to want to work in childcare: exhausting work for almost no money, and few men want to be around kids that much. Unfortunately, some number of those who do are there to abuse children, or are working out some psychological problem (lost their own kids, can’t handle adults, etc.). So when a man’s in the running,… Read more »
You do realize this is the line of thought that causes a lot of men to NOT want to be fathers, or be role models to kids these days because of pedophilia hysteria? In Australia we have male preschool teachers who parents ask to be fired simply because he is a male, it’s one of the 3 big reasons why there is a huge lack of male teachers and male leadership for kids. Society has this accepted bigotry against men, to question their actions based on the actions of the few. We’re just causing a generation or 2 of people… Read more »
Such attitudes result in this kind of discrimination:
http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-incidents/seat-swap-outcry-moves-virgin-to-think-again-20120810-23y7q.html
Wow! What a conversation! Quite heated at times… Throughout history, there is an abundance of evidence that weighs in on men being, in general, much more threatening to the health and welfare of others than women. It’s called testosterone. You guys have the bulk of that, not the women, and men are socialized in most societies to be more aggressive in pursing what they want. Way it goes… To me, it’s simply logical to be more cautious in my dealings with men I don’t know than I would be with women I don’t know. Not because women are incapable of… Read more »
Awesome, Joreth. And it’s true. I’ve never had a woman come and *take a tool out of my hand and try to take over*, but I sure have had a man do that. Including my ex, who also made a lot of fuss when I put up the shelves in my office by myself. (Not a hard job, but apparently it was my job to make him Feel Manly.) When I later saw how he put up a towel rack, I was glad I hadn’t let him near my office shelves. I don’t let my ex into the house anymore,… Read more »
Wow, this is a very inspiring article. I enjoyed reading it very much, particularly the part about teaching women to fix their cars. I used to work for a NPO for empowering women here in Jerusalem, Israel, and last summer I took a class with them about car maintenence. It was just a two-hour workshop about how to change a tire, what the lights on the dashboard mean and things like that, and then we learned a bit about what to do if someone assaults you in your car. It was short but priceless.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. 🙂
The problem I have with this article is that it seems to be coming from a position of privilege and seems to be ignoring a lot of factors, such as economics and religion. It’s all well and good to tell women “just get up there and ask for that raise” when you had the opportunity to be educated to make you a raise-worthy employee. But when you grew up poor and your brothers are the ones your parents spent the education money on while you were busy being groomed to find yourself a good man by being pretty, not smart,… Read more »
I should also make it clear that, taking precautions because it’s better to guess wrong about a stranger being a threat than to be wrong about a stranger not being a threat, does not mean we should single out men as the threat. For instance, your story about you running through the halls like a crazy person being met with no resistance while a man’s mere presence was cause for lockdown is shameful. First of all, the school should not have gone all the way to lockdown just for a guy’s presence. But second of all, you should not have… Read more »
“If other men, who get it, would school these sorts of men on their behaviour, maybe we could lower the incident rate down to a level where we didn’t draw generalizations like “men are more likely to be a threat to me than women” because it would no longer be true.” School them how though? Telling them not to help women because they are women? Quite a lot of that schooling already happens, hell feminist websites are chock a block with schooling. I have no problem with telling other men to stop negative behaviour, I already do it, as long… Read more »
Archy, what part of this did you miss? “Accept ‘no thanks’ graciously and do not *grab* things away from women; do not decide, using physical force or not, that you know better what they need and that they must show appreciation for all your unwanted helpiness.” It’s very simple: ask, “Can you use a hand?” And if the answer’s no, then back the hell off. This is not your moment to prove yourself a hero. I thought that was fairly obvious courtesy. You know, I get that either you were abused by a woman early on, or you’re one of… Read more »
@Sarahj. The “nearby city” sounds like it may be Chicago. You’re taking precautions should have nothing to do with who is walking toward you. It’s a big city problem and has nothing to do with race much less gender. The truth is criminals can spot fear a mile away and showing fear within itself may be setting yourself up. Most criminals on the street are interested in one thing and that’s your money which is usually in a women’s purse. Don’t take a purse with you. Most criminals who are interested in money won’t bother you if you yourself may… Read more »
I am not a fathers rights person, don’t have children. I was abused by one woman but I love many women. The reason I pointed it out wasn’t to deflect at all, it’s to point out that fear based on stats can spiral out of control. I can very easily give reason to children to fear their mother based on the stats of child abuse, I can give reason to fear girlfriends/wives for men based on the domestic and sexual violence stats, you can probably find stats to make people afraid of every group. You want men to educate other… Read more »
@Archy: Ask kids. They’re more afraid of their dads because the dads are the heavies. Louder voices, heavier hands, more physically intimidating, stronger. My dad never laid a hand on me and was a dedicated do-not-hit-kids guy, but sure I was scared of him. The threat’s in the potential. As for the point you’re trying repeatedly to make: Nobody is saying women can’t be violent and that there aren’t violent and otherwise abusive women. Statistically they do much less physical damage. And that’s why people not only worry about them less, but are right to worry about them less. I… Read more »
“As for the point you’re trying repeatedly to make: Nobody is saying women can’t be violent and that there aren’t violent and otherwise abusive women. Statistically they do much less physical damage. And that’s why people not only worry about them less, but are right to worry about them less. ” I got a friend whose husband’s a Marine, divorced. His ex-wife hit him, hard; he pulled over, got out of the car, and just walked away, said that’s it. Did she injure him? No; she’s this little tiny thing and apparently doesn’t know how to make a punch count.… Read more »
@Sarahj…..Round and round we go … rehashing the same old thing about fearing men. So I guess what you want us to say is that men are evil and every women should fear men no matter what. If you think that men don’t know men can be perps, you’re wrong. We are reminded of it every day of the week. Simply open up the news paper, turn on the TV or radio and there will be something about the evil men. So what’s your point Sarah? What do you want us to say? But here is a word to the… Read more »
“Being a “city girl,” you of all people should know what man is a potential problem and accordingly shouldn’t fear all men simply because they’re men.” I don’t think I ever said that should be the case. Not even in the initial example, with the school. If a man’s demeanor and appearance say “I belong here and I’m not a threat,” then of course I’m not going to be afraid. I have actual, real-life conversations with men every day, and they both look and are friendly, non-thuggy, and suitable to the environment. And you’re right that women can do harm,… Read more »
I think this video demonstrates your point very clearly Archy. A guy stands there and takes a beating for about 5 minutes and yet, the women filming the video keeps saying “he better not hit her back”. Yet, despite insisting he not defend himself against her, this never thinks to intervene herself. So the expectation is that he doesn’t need help, but he’s also not allowed to defend himself. This is not an uncommon attitude.
And of course, in contrast, had he defended himself, this would likely have been the result. You can here all the other guys calling him a bloody bastard, and answering his “how can she slap me?” with “you slapped here” even though she slapped first.
Christ, Mark, they teach how to deal with this in elementary school. 1. Ignore. If that doesn’t work, 2. Tell her to stop. If that doesn’t work, 3. Walk away. If that doesn’t work, 4. Go to a teacher (in this case, a cop). I check in on our police blotter now and then, and if you think the cops don’t take “my girlfriend/wife hit me” seriously, you’re profoundly mistaken. These calls end in the women’s arrest. Injury is unnecessary. The men are not arrested for calling in, and the cops do not presume that the man was actually the… Read more »
“The men are not arrested for calling in, and the cops do not presume that the man was actually the abuser. If you live in a place where the police will not take such calls seriously, then I suggest community action or, if that fails, moving.” http://vimeo.com/1649038 At least you acknowledge that in some places, men’s abuse isn’t taken seriously. It’s just a shame you feel a legitimate response is to move away. It’s not that men are being discriminated against, it’s just your in the wrong place. And if you think there are nobody attempting to address this, you’re… Read more »
My experience is that the women’s groups are the ones sponsoring the “take DV against men” movements — when they’re serious movements and not attempts by violent men to shift blame. It’s a deeply unfortunate thing, and you see it all over the dads’ rights movement: men say the courts are biased, they can’t get access to their kids. Well, in fact there are laws on the books about this in every state I’ve investigated, ranging from visitation to compulsory shared custody unless there’s a good reason not to, with the caselaw showing that moms who try to deny court-ordered… Read more »
If you actually talk to women’s groups and centers, you’ll find the people in charge are pretty savvy about these things and understand that there are men suffering genuine abuse whose cause is being completely undermined by these thugs who don’t want a good look in the mirror, and would prefer to blame anyone else available: judges, women, lawyers, you name it. While those thugs are partly responsible for it there is still a matter of the judges, women, lawyers, etc. that actually do take part in that undermining. Finally: NOBODY should be hit. Yeah, I “buy into” that. If… Read more »
“Well, in fact there are laws on the books about this in every state I’ve investigated, ranging from visitation to compulsory shared custody unless there’s a good reason not to, with the caselaw showing that moms who try to deny court-ordered visitation are begging the courts to shift custody to the dads.” First off, there aren’t actually any laws on the books that designate any kind of equality. There are suggestions and recomendations that a child be able to have meaningful relationships with both parents, but what that means is entirely up to the judge, and “the best interests of… Read more »
Sarah,
I’m black and male and I don’t blame you.
I’d do the same.
Assuming a stranger to be a threat (male or female) only does a disservice to yourself. And it makes other men pay for the crimes of their counterparts.
So how about not being fear stricken, paranoid cowards and learn to look the world in the eye?
Alarmists.
Like anger, it’s not the emotion but what we do with it. It’s one thing to be fearful but it’s another to shut down and drastically change our lives to accommodate it. I haven’t locked my doors in years, in fact I don’t even know where the key to our house is. The one time my house was burglarized, they broke a window to get in. Had they simply tried to the door that was 3 feet away from the window, I wouldn’t have had the additional cost of replacing the window. BTW, according to the police in my area… Read more »
I think it is important to consider why are women raised to be afraid. I do not believe women lack courage, so why when a man and a women grow up in the same culture does the man walk down a dark road without problems and a woman is afraid of what might be in the shadows?
Another consideration – are men equally afraid but we are socialised to suppress it?
“Are men equally afraid but we are socialised to suppress it?” That is an awesome point Transhuman. Society implies to all of us that men aren’t supposed to be afraid of other men because if they were a “real” man they would just beat the other guy up. And men aren’t supposed to be afraid of women because…heck, you should *never* be afraid of women. Fallacies both. What’s been interesting to me here is that men rarely say they are afraid, when they do, to me it makes them more human. But other times, an admission of fear at the… Read more »
“But other times, an admission of fear at the start quickly turns into anger — and then that wall goes up again.” The times I have truly been afraid, I have deliberately translated fear into anger – these are times when I thought another person was about to harm me physically, usually another man but not infrequently drunk women. When I was in high school physical violence was not uncommon, and using fear to fight back was essential. What I find harder to discuss meaningfully is lesser versions of fear, I would described these occasions as heightened awareness or concern.… Read more »
Thank you for that, Transhuman. I like the start of your exploration of fear-anger-agression, and wholeheartedly agree it should be talked about more. Would you ever want to write a post for us about that topic?
It’s part of why we are here — to tell the stories that help us come to a deeper, more nuanced, more thoughtful vocabulary around these issue.
“In social situations, when I deliberately discuss things men supposedly fear, I note that assertion, even social aggression from men are mischaracterised as anger. I’ve been in conversations where some of the women describe a man’s refusal to agree with a women’s request as aggression, not the assertion that it actually is. I think this fear-anger-aggression issue is more complex than is realised, I think it is also misused. Sometimes I believe the general idea of fear is used to manipulate.” Perhaps you’d also like to bring this idea into corporate and academic situations, where women who assert themselves or… Read more »
Humans have a sense of fear for a reason. It’s often not a bad thing unless fear prevents us from doing things and going places that are perfectly safe and thereby losing out on opportunities. That is the problem here. Women are taught to not be afraid of being afraid, admitting it, and taking any and all precautions they feel are needed to be safe. Men, by contrast, are taught to be protectors, guardians, to and look out for others – to be the one to take the hit/bullet for those under their care, which means to either not fear… Read more »
Actually, Eric, if she won’t get on an elevator with a man, she’s likely making herself healthier. She’ll have to take the stairs. Context is key. Do I check out a man before I get on an elevator alone with him? You bet. And most men know a woman’s likely to do this, and if they’re decent guys will do all they can to look nonthreatening, politely avoid eye contact, and broadcast “sorry to make you uncomfortable, I’m too busy and/or nice to rape or attack you on the way to the twelfth floor.” Have I ever passed on an… Read more »
Well, she may be healthier but she may also be later. Late for that job interview that the male candidate was on time for. But, of course, if he got hired over her as a result of her being late, it would, no doubt, be a man’s fault.
But, I will tell you that, basd on your opinion of men, most men would not be the least bit troubled if you chose to take the stairs instead.
“In the context of a school, random unknown man is *not* normal. We know what dads look like, even if we’ve never seen that particular dad before. The dads look uncomfortable, focused, adult, responsible, disoriented. At my kid’s school, they look employed, professional. They’re looking for a classroom or an exit, don’t know where it is. They look like they wish they had more time to exercise. They dress like dads. Cheap polos and dress shirts everywhere. But random guy who doesn’t look like a dad — why is he there? Why is he in a school in the middle… Read more »
This begs the question…what’s a “mom uniform?” I bet it’s got flowers on it and it involves a Jennifer Aniston hair cut.
Yes, that’s about right, Peter. If a guy isn’t known to the staff, doesn’t stop by the office, and isn’t recognizably a dad, he’s a security risk. We stop him and find out what he wants, and we make sure the kids are protected in the meantime.
Heather, moms look remarkably like moms. When you’re responsible every day for someone else’s life, it shows.
What if there is a woman who isn’t known to the staff? Same deal, stop her and find out what she wants, and make sure the kids are protected in the meantime?
If she hasn’t got “mom” written all over her and hasn’t stopped at the office? Yes. Lisa writes: “I hear someone say, “Who’s that?” They glance out, decide I’m not a threat, smile and close the door.” Right. Because they aren’t stupid, and they know what moms look like. Someone in that office may also have recognized her. She may not have been to a PTO meeting, but I bet she had to go in there to take care of paperwork or drop off something (or someone) at some point, and staff at a good school pay attention. In other… Read more »
So to not get stopped, you have to look like a mum, or be known to staff, what about look like a dad?
See if it’s not based on gender, and you stop both males and females there is no problem, if it’s just the men getting stopped it is a problem.
Archy, I know you so dislike having all men lumped together, and I certainly understand that, but you’ll have to go explain the problem to the preponderance of workplace/school-violence perpetrators, who happen to be men. If someone goes to an office to hunt down and shoot an ex-spouse, or goes to a school to open fire, you can comfortably lay your money down on the shooter’s being a man, not a woman. Go tell them that hey, they’re really screwing it up for everyone else, and they have to cut that shit out. Am I saying that staff are seriously… Read more »
ht tps://www.ncjrs.gov/html/ojjdp/nismart/03/ns4.html Yes, it’s mostly men who kidnap children, BUT 25% of non-family abductions and 7% of family abductions perpetrated by females is nothing to ignore. Make sure you stop both male n female strangers and don’t place too much trust in women over men. Are you also more concerned by race? By age? Are you more worried about 20-40 year olds who dominate the crime stats? Are you more worried about lower income parents? Are you worried that children are more likely to be abused by their mother than their father? You see I can play the stats game… Read more »
Archy, when a stranger walks into a school, the secretaries aren’t worried that the stranger is there to abuse a child. The secretaries are afraid that the stranger is there to pull out a gun or steal a child. The heavy, heavy odds there are men. Not women. And the most immediate danger is the kind with a gun, and there we’re talking about men. I’m sorry, you’re just wrong on this one. I know you’ve been abused by women, and yes, there’s a lot of child abuse perpetrated by mothers. But that’s not what the article’s about. The article’s… Read more »
All I want to know is would women be watched, or are men singled out? I understand the violence, etc that plagues men but even a single incident from a female proves the need for women to also be watched. I don’t mind that strangers are treated with caution, what I mind is when we focus only on one group, where we treat men with suspicion but treat women as perfectly safe. In a situation where a strange woman enters the school, I fully expect the staff to find out why she is there. If a strange man enters the… Read more »
Yeah, but if you’re wrong, SHE’S in trouble.
I wanna write a follow up to this:
When Men Fear Women
Then do.
That would be great Jimmy. Email it to me when it’s written.
ok I’ll see what I can come up with
@Eric Gaby: Right, we’re on to the “you’ve just run into the wrong men / it’s your own fault you’ve run into the wrong men, something’s wrong with you” part of the conversation. In other words: We don’t like what you’re saying, so let’s blame you; there’s a few bad apples but most of us rock. You know, if I were in some tiny minority of women reporting serious problems with men — not “he makes me crazy”, but reports of violence, theft, stalking, abandonment, infidelity with a baby in the house, total misrepresentation while courting followed by revelations of… Read more »
It’d be nice to see more female candidates, AND also better candidates all around. I have a question. Do you assume it’s mostly men doing negative behaviour or could you see both genders being at fault in many cases? I see plenty of highly negative comments about men from women online, but I also see plenty of highly negative comments about WOMEN from men online too. Everything from women not stepping up to their responsibilities, expecting the men to pay for everything whilst being lazy at home, being abusive physically, emotionally and sexually, using people, stealing, stalking, lying, just downright… Read more »
Archy, let me see if I can make the problem clear. ” I also see plenty of highly negative comments about WOMEN from men online too. Everything from women not stepping up to their responsibilities, expecting the men to pay for everything whilst being lazy at home, being abusive physically, emotionally and sexually, using people, stealing, stalking, lying, just downright crazy behaviour as well. ” Okay: Woman is lazy, versus: Man punches hole in the wall and threatens the woman. Or: Woman rolls her eyes because the guy hasn’t done shit around the house and is busy with the Xbox,… Read more »
“Okay: Woman is lazy, versus: Man punches hole in the wall and threatens the woman. Or: Woman rolls her eyes because the guy hasn’t done shit around the house and is busy with the Xbox, versus: Man threatens to beat up Guy X if she has a drink with him again. Or: Woman’s bitchy, versus: Man has made sure she has no access to money, leaves her with the kids, then goes out having affairs.” So when my friend’s mother almost beat her to death with a metal bar and subjected her husband and other children to similar abuse she… Read more »
Peter, I’ve never said women don’t ever do such things. In fact I’ve said exactly the opposite. Don’t misread me to suit your agenda. They do and worse. Unfortunately, though, the stats do back me up. The overwhelmingly vast majority of serious abuse perpetrators are men. Look at the murder stats, at the violent crime stats. When a spouse lands in the hospital with fractures after a beating, that spouse is nearly always the wife. Like I said, you can try to spin this however you want with “there are also violent women” — and there are — but the… Read more »
You know it’s funny, in the above case I mentioned the wife tried to prosecute the husband for abuse… until the kids turned up and threatened to tell the truth. Men rarely come forward when they’ve been abused, the stats are skewed. And I’m really not the one spinning things.
So are you saying women are all always spinning things when they discuss abuse or sexual assault? I’m unclear here. Just because men aren’t reporting doesn’t mean the women who are aren’t telling the truth. It means we also need to listen to men more.
“Okay: Woman is lazy, versus: Man punches hole in the wall and threatens the woman. Or: Woman rolls her eyes because the guy hasn’t done shit around the house and is busy with the Xbox, versus: Man threatens to beat up Guy X if she has a drink with him again. Or: Woman’s bitchy, versus: Man has made sure she has no access to money, leaves her with the kids, then goes out having affairs.” Seriously? you’re going to compare woman being lazy to men being violent? Is this a joke or are you being serious? How about Woman beats… Read more »
“As for people being married: After a decade of talking to married men and women, I conclude that most marriages that survive are working because the women operate deliberately in a state of partial delusion, insisting that their men are wonderful, loving, caring fathers and husbands. This is largely fantasy, and the women generate the theatre themselves, setting up scenes in which they cast the men in roles and tell them what to do, then pretend the men have done it well.” So, happily married women are delusional, but the feminist seperatists who believe that living in no-men-allowed communities because… Read more »
The problem, Eric, is that they’re not so happily married. They want to be happily married. They don’t want to be divorced. So they put tremendous effort into trying to believe that what they have is okay and wantable. And they talk about it. They talk about acceptance, and wanting what you have, and trying to see the good side, and my God it’s painful to listen to because they’re obviously unhappy and trying to preserve this idea of marriage and family they’ve got. They don’t want to break it. And they’re talking themselves around so that they can bear… Read more »
So, you say that none of the people you associate with or have interviewed are happily married. None? Wow. I can only take you at your word since I don’t know them personally. However, the people that I am referring to, whom I have known for many years are happily married; nothing’s perfect but they are reasonably content. And, these are personal friends, not interviewees. And, I know a lot of people, a very significant sample size. “I’m trying to think of any married mother I know well who hasn’t talked to me this way….Nope, can’t think of any.” It’s… Read more »
Top tip, Eric: Unless a wife’s looking to have an affair, she’s not likely to open up like that to you. You, a man, get Public Wife. Women talk like this to other women, particularly to single women, because they don’t have to fear that her marriage will be better than theirs, and also because they’re sending out a probe: what would it be like, if they left?
“a wife’s looking to have an affair, she’s not likely to open up like that to you.”
Friends talk to friends, male and female. The difference between my experiences and yours is that I haven’t “interviewed” random people I barely know. I have literally hundreds of friends, many of whom are married, many of whom I have known for 20 years or more.
The other difference is that I have personally been married for 20+ years. I know what I’m talking about personally, in reality, not hypothetically.
@sarahj … Wow, where are all these women who you say are miserable? It was painful to listen to them and you stated they are obviously unhappy. In an earlier response you said that they “women operate deliberately in a state of partial delusion, insisting that their men are wonderful, loving, caring fathers and husbands. This is largely fantasy, and the women generate the theatre themselves” What is it that they say that gives you this impression? NO marriage is perfect and maybe that’s one of the problems people have these days, the expectations are unreasonable. I’ve been married for… Read more »
OMFG I had to reply to this. I know this is an old post and maybe nobody will see it. But let me go on the record here. I’m female, and happily married. VERY happily. My husband is a wonderful, kind, decent, funny man. I’m sorry this lady has had such bad experiences in her life but holy CRAP do not disrespect those of us who ARE with good men by telling us we don’t know our own minds and we’re deluded. So when I leave the house and my husband says: “Be careful sweetie, Love you.” Or when he… Read more »
Well said. The opinions and experiences of women who disagree often seem to get dismissed and painted over. The discussion of abortion always does so. Women make up a prominent portion of those who are pro-life, yet when pro-choicers are discussing the topic, it’s always the white man trying to control women’s vaginas
“It seems to me it’s much less of a stretch to qualify as a “good man” than it is to qualify as a “good woman”. I’ve actually never even heard someone qualify a female as a “good woman.” It just doesn’t happen, ever, in my experience. Men on the other hand are constantly judged and qualified as either “good” or “bad” men. “In general the women get on better than the men do after divorce” You do realize what happens to men in divorce court, right? You realize that divorce amounts to financial ruin for many men? “men in general… Read more »
The Madonna / Whore is where we get into the “good women” territory. The ‘madonna’s are good. ‘Whores’ are bad. Except that what really confuses me, personally, is that guys reportedly want sex. So how is it not “good” for a woman to participate as an equal in that act? It seems to me that would be good.
We are not trying to “define” good on this website by any stretch of the imagination. We want to have the conversation because these things are worth talking about.
“Except that what really confuses me, personally, is that guys reportedly want sex. So how is it not “good” for a woman to participate as an equal in that act? It seems to me that would be good.” Now I don’t speak for all men but I don’t think our genders see eye to eye on “whores”. I’ll say that I don’t have a problem with promiscuous women at all, in fact I love them and wish there were millions more of them. What I do have a problem with is deception. I see women afraid to own up to… Read more »
” I usually only hear men talking negatively about the lying, not the sleeping around.”
Then I ought to show you my inbox, filled with men who think I’m a whore because I admit to being sexually active outside of marriage.
Slut-shaming is a big problem, from all genders, but it’s aimed towards women, not generally aimed towards men. *Individual* men might get slut-shamed, but institutionally, women as a whole are slut-shamed by both individual people and by the institution of society itself.
Why do all these strangers know that you sleep around? And, why do they have access to your email? And, no one can “shame” you unless you are ashamed? Unless you agree with them at some level. Otherwise, it wouldn’t matter what they thought,
“And, no one can “shame” you unless you are ashamed? Unless you agree with them at some level. Otherwise, it wouldn’t matter what they thought.”
Yeah, I’ll just point you to my comment about shaming here.
Many women’s studies theorists constantly attempt to shame men constantly with their anti-male propgagnda theories of male privilege, rape culture, and patriarchy. I personally couldn’t care less.
You’re simply not going to stop people from being haters. All you can do is be strong-minded enough to ignore them.
It’s a form of bullying, Eric M. and it does hurt. Maybe it’s because I’m still young and haven’t developed a thick enough skin yet, but I’ve gotten plenty of messages saying the same thing. I’m not ashamed of anything I say or do, but it still hits a nerve when I get insulted like that. I know intellectually that people are just saying things to get under my skin, but it still makes me sad and affects me, which I suppose, is what they set out to do in the first place. So maybe you’re right…just ignore it.
No, Aya, he’s not right. If someone’s bullying you, that’s wrong. If he won’t stop on his own, make him stop. Haul the behavior out in public. Go talk to your boss or teacher or (if you’re really young) parents. If it’s harassment rather than simple assholery, go to the police. It’s not a matter of “they win if it affects you”; it’s “they win if they’re allowed to get away with such awful, mean behavior.” Stand up, get help, make them stop.
@Sarahj, you might be able to reduce it but I don’t think you can kill it off completely, if that makes sense. Take action if it’s bullying, call them out on it etc as you say. We can at least try to reduce the negativity in this world, if we give up and just expect there to be assholes in the world without doing anything to stop it then there will probably be more assholes to deal with as quite a few will grow tired n bitter from receiving that kind of behaviour.
Divorce amounts to financial ruin for *men*? Look at the stats: men, on the whole, do far better after divorce than women do. Which stands to reason: more women are custodial, which throws a serious wrench into your earning ability, even if you’d had a good career before. Men will also generally remarry quickly, acquiring live-in babysitters, which frees them further to make money. Women marry much less often, and more slowly, after divorce, and their husbands do not usually become the at-home wife. “You don’t have to be interested in them, just let them go.” It’s remarkable how angry… Read more »
I’m sure you’re more than capable of reciting a litany of abuse that men have performed on women. I’m equally sure many of the commentators here are capable of providing the reverse.
And yet when I walk down the street, oddly enough, it’s never women I fear will become violent, never the women I’ll turn around to watch. And in the newspaper next morning, it’s still very seldom a woman who’s punched the victim in the face, or tried to strangle a lover who was breaking up with her, or threatened someone’s life. I am not saying that women are never violent. Some certainly are. But you can rely on the police stats, not my word. It’s men who inflict the serious damage, and most of the damage overall. I’m sorry. I… Read more »
You do realize a lot of men will not report abuse from women? I myself didn’t report being groped, slapped, hit, etc. Even in some stats on sexual assault there is bias to hide the true level of male victimization, the recent cdc stats buried men being forced to penetrate someone else under “other sexual assault”, barely mentioned anything on it in the summary and didn’t even class it as rape. Most of the random acts of violence towards strangers is committed by men yes, but mostly to other men. We have a massive focus though on violence against women… Read more »
Archy, all you need do is look at the police stats. When serious damage is inflicted — when someone has to go to the hospital, when someone’s killed — the police are involved. The perps are hardly ever women. In a hefty percentage of the cases where they are, they’re acting in self-defense, and they’ve shot an abusive husband. Slapped, groped — nobody is defending these things. But I have a child who’s maybe 70% my height and weight. I have absolutely no fear that when she’s furious, she’s going to do me serious harm. I’m bigger and stronger than… Read more »
So because one partner in an abusive relationship has a physical advantage they will automatically be capable of defending themselves? If that were true then abused women would always leave when they had the chance, back in reality relationships invalidate physical factors and allow people to abuse their partners even when they’re not there through stockholm syndrome. I’m guessing from the way you’re talking that the men in your life who were abused by women (and chances are there are more than a couple) haven’t talked to you about it, but this doesn’t mean that they don’t exist and that… Read more »
Peter, I’m sorry, but the stats speak for themselves: If a person is in hospital or dead following DV, that person is nearly always a woman. (And Archy, you may have some burly women down under, but those ratios are still pretty tremendous.) You can try to twist the rhetoric around however you like, but these things don’t rely on self-reporting. Police are involved whether the victim calls or not. I am not saying that non-hospital-level abuse is not abuse. But when it comes to fear for one’s person and life, which is what the original article was about, the… Read more »
Hospital stats are useless, they only back up your claims because men are opressed into thinking they can’t ever admit to being assaulted by a woman. Anonymous surveys like those compiled by the CDC suggest you’re way off. And, again, when women kill men they usually have an accomplice. Result? It isn’t recorded as DV. “It would help your cause, btw, if the “women are abusive too” call didn’t so often come from men who’ve had restraining orders filed against them.” So the fact that laws exist which specifically allow women to get groundless restraining orders means nothing? I personally… Read more »
I’m not trying to suggest DV overall is equal, I’m trying to suggest it’s getting close to it, and the level of abuse women perpetrate is far higher than many will admit. Too often I see people trying to say women are this tiny minority of abusers, like 5-10% and then throw in the absolute bullshit comparison of a woman slapping a man and a man putting her through a wall as if women could not ever do serious damage. It’s not helped by some feminists who do this in attempts to minimize female perpetration as if it’s so minor… Read more »
Archy, thanks so much for this comment. Especially the last part. Not sure if I’ve ever heard anyone admit that online before. That I’ve personally found that abuse between adults usually doesn’t happen in a bubble. That we need to look at our part in the situation as well, and take responsibility for our part. Leave if we need to, but look back, and see both sides of it. Trying to do this without blaming either party is hard, but so worth trying to do it. Obviously we may feel shame for our part, and anger for theirs, that’s normal.… Read more »
Yeah, I just want all dv to be taken seriously, all people to realize that anyone can be violent and violence isn’t solely the males domain.
You place far too much importance on physical size differences, whilst they do play a large part there is also a lot of very strong men who won’t hit women, who shutdown and take abuse from women they are stronger then, who are severely physically injured by them. There’s also the fact that a lot of damage comes from emotional abuse, which is both harder to detect and neither gender really has an advantage. Domestic violence is far more than physical violence. “In investigating domestic violence, three different types of data have been used, each with limitations, each leading to… Read more »
Okay, I typed out a reply but it looks like the site ate it. Archy, Peter, your points would be better made if you didn’t go beyond the point of reason and undermine them. One, men can and do call in abuse. If they do it here, and this is not exactly the land of metrosexuals, I’m sure they do it elsewhere. Two, you seem to be confused about why women don’t leave. While it’s true that you do get otherwise strong, well-employed women staying just out of being psychologially messed-up, that’s not generally what happens. In general the women… Read more »
I’ve heard of black men causing robberies, assaults, are you comfy putting shops into lockdown when a black man enters the premises? If you can’t understand how wrong it is to put a school into lockdown for one gender, but not the other based on the extremely rare occurance of a school shooting and treating 99.999% of men as criminals then I am lost as to why you’re even on this site. By the way, crimes against children, child abuse, is mostly done by women so why wouldn’t you lock down the school when strange women enter? Your anecdotal evidence… Read more »
Archy, this blanket statement of opinion of you, me, and all other men alive says it all:
“The farthest I’ll go is to say that any man is highly likely to be childish, deeply egotistical, dependent emotionally, prone to blaming others for his misdeeds, and in my view overall not worth the candle . . .”
And they wonder why the vast majority of women say no to feminism.
Did the original comment get deleted? I can’t find it. I know of a few women that say no to certain kinds of feminism, is it fair though to generalize about feminism in reply to a generalization though?
If people want to think that of men, I pity them…I just hope they can meet some great men to change their mind.
Archy …. if they do meet these great guys, they run the chance of making their relationship or views of that relationship appear as a fantcay?
“The farthest I’ll go is to say that any man is highly likely to be childish, deeply egotistical, dependent emotionally, prone to blaming others for his misdeeds, and in my view overall not worth the candle if you’re talking about living together.”
That is an absolutely huge generalization and absolute rubbish. It’s like saying any woman is over emotional, or something. Let’s NOT make such sweeping generalizations.
“. It’s like saying any woman is over emotional, or something.”
Except that would not have been allowed to have been posted about women or feminists, whereas such generalizations are allowed when said about men in both comments and articles.
The mods are all volunteer, Eric. We’re doing the best we can. There are plenty of comments that are on the fence about whether they constitute generalizations that violate the commenting policy…both when talking about men and women (or any other group of people, for that matter). If you’ve got any feedback I suggest e-mailing the Publisher, Lisa Hickney, at [email protected]
Eric? Do you know some of us don’t even see these comments until there is an issue? Because as Heather said, we are volunteer. And I’ve not been on the computer for 12 hours more or less, so I just saw it and will trash it. You complain and complain here about us as moderators and yet you never actually offer significant advice about it, volunteer to consult or act as one. We’ll do our job and we’ll do it damn well, as we have been doing it, for free mind you, because we care. But if all you are… Read more »
After a decade of talking to married men and women, I conclude that most marriages that survive are working because the women operate deliberately in a state of partial delusion. Its curious that you often take exception to people ‘smearing you’ and yet you have no concerns about ‘smearing’ others. It is abundantly clear from your posts that you feel you are completely and undeniably correct in all your criticisms of men. These are tired arguments that I have heard before and there is nothing particularly revelatory or insightful in them. I will admit that the exception I take to… Read more »
Slee, I’m glad you’ve got a good marriage. I’ll still stand by the “most marriages” I wrote about above (not “all marriages” or “Slee’s marriage”). I think we can also do without the intimation that women who aren’t in your marriage are simply loading up these poor men with burdensome expectations, dooming their own marriages to failure. It’s not nice or accurate. The problems are neither new nor mysterious, and it sounds as though you know them pretty well. Plenty of ink and electrons have been spilled describing them. What it comes down to, in marriage after marriage, is this:… Read more »
sarahj, every one of your posts can be turned on its head. <> If I or anyone else came on and made a “women are bad” post in the same vein as all your “men are bad” rant, would you honestly not accuse me of blaming everyone for a few bad apples? <> At least you are consistent in admitting your double-standards. I can respect that a lot more than people who pretend to not have them. First of all, you’ve got the issue that abuse is unfairly defined differently depending on gender (a man who hits a woman is… Read more »
Ugh, well, dumb formatting made that post lose all the quoted material so now it’s impossible to tell which of sarah’s comments I was responding to where.
Archy, I’m talking about campaign funding, not household funding. You can’t mount a serious campaign for office without serious funding. There are organizations such as Emily’s List which help, but the problems are described well by the development offices of colleges that have been historically women’s colleges: the women don’t have the big bucks and don’t write the big checks. The parties control the money, and the parties are run by men. You can argue theory with me all you like; I’ve been on the inside and seen it. It’s not nice, it’s not egalitarian, and no, it’s not friendly… Read more »
Election campaigns? ahh. Yeah politics is a big steaming pile…I hate the money link to it all, maybe it’d be better to have a limit set or even a state sponsored campaign setup that candidates can use, and all donations go into a pool instead of to each candidate. But if politics can be cleaned up…I think I’ll buy a lotto ticket 😛 “I remember seeing a story a few years ago in the Times Sunday magazine about a group of professional women, single mothers, who lived in a community of their own, no men, and got along swimmingly, raising… Read more »
Sometimes people need to look at the “man (or woman) in the mirror.” For example, when a man or woman always has horrible experiences with the opposite sex, year after year, for years on end, and thus concludes that there is a problem with (essentially) all of members of the opposite sex, it is abudanty clear that the problem is with that one person, not the 3.5 billion members of the opposite sex. The evidence that the above world-view is out of cadence with reality are the many women and men who (today, as we speak) have wonderful (albeity imperfect)… Read more »
Um…yeah, I used to be all equalist. And then I got married, and had a child, and things went wrong. I’ve been on my own ever since. Here’s what I’ve learned in that time: If you are a mother and you need help, the people who have your back will be, almost exclusively, other women. A man offering to help you almost certainly wants to get into your pants. Men do not want to be equalists. Men want you to take care of them while admiring them, and men want you to need them. If you show up wanting to… Read more »
This will end well. I’m curious if you realize many arguments you make about men being selfish, well quite a few men could make similar claims in the reverse direction? Is it just the men you were exposed to in your life that were like this or do you believe the same for all or most men? The existence of some bad males doesn’t mean there are no good males, and the same goes for women. Can you explain further on men not taking women seriously on funding? Recently there has been discussion showing women receive far more U.S Government… Read more »
It is too bad that every single experience you have had with men has been horrible, so much so that all you can do is make sweeping generalizations about how horrible they are. Your comment would normally be deleted by our moderators — we delete comments from men who make such generalizations about women. But Archy asked you a question, and so out of respect for him I will see if you answer. The men who are a part of this community are very much equalists, as long as you (or any women, or any man for that matter) comes… Read more »
@ Lisa: “we delete comments from men who make such generalizations about women.” In point of fact, you do not, please see the long rant about how crazy women are by Valdez over at “Why Women Aren’t Crazy.” It’s really hard to miss. While I don’t share Sarahj’s bitterness, she is right. This article smacks of a naivete and sexual politics. Women in other countries where I’ve lived do not live in the same kind of fear, not because the presumption of male guilt is less or because they are more competent, but because they have less to fear. Please,… Read more »
@Miss: Can you provide a link please? Our moderation staff is composed of volunteers and often isn’t large enough to review every comment posted. But to address your argument: I’m not sure if you understand the meaning of exponential, but studies which have begun to examine the incidence of male sexual assault are increasingly finding that this isn’t true at all. The “difficulty setting” thing is a gross and insulting oversimplification. While I fully acknowlege that white privilege exists (dependant on wealth) gendered privilege is much more complex. There are many areas where you, as a woman, have significantly better… Read more »
“Women are exponentially more likely to be sexually assaulted than men (what is it? 1:4 compared to 1:33) and murdered by their partners;” Please read the following links, you’re obviously misinformed on the rate of sexual abuse towards men. Lifetime estimate for men sexually assaulted is at worst estimate 1 in 21 for forced to penetrate alone, 1 in 71 for forcibly penetrated, 1 in 6 boys have been sexually abused, and in the last 12 months pretty much equal level of men and women were forcibly penetrated and/or forced to penetrate someone else/raped. Statistics however show a clear bias… Read more »
“Women in other countries where I’ve lived do not live in the same kind of fear, not because the presumption of male guilt is less or because they are more competent, but because they have less to fear.” Oh I do so love how people can flip flop so easily to promote whatever agenda they are pushing at the moment. We are often told how women in other countries still have it so bad, being beaten and stoned for the meagerest of actions. But as soon as it comes time to justify women’s fear in western society, all those women… Read more »
Here’s another woman’s experience with men: I have been punched in the face and stalked by my former boyfiend and I have been intimidated and sexually harrassed by my former landlord. I also have been helped out by several male teachers and have some great male fiends. As for the women in my life: three of my close fiends have been raped and beaten by men multiple times and recently (over a few years) they all told me, all women in my life have been good fiends two of them were annoying neighbors, one used to be a close fiend… Read more »
The above is meant in reply to Mark Neil below. But the page reloaded and somehow it was lost, then reappeared again and not it sems to be not placed correctly.
Oh wait, I forgot all the men who hit on me, hissed at me and tried to get in my pants in bars and in the streets (and once when I was drunk and lied down in a man’s bed to feel better I woke up with him on top of me). No women in my life have ever tried that sort of thing. Oh, and yeah, as a kid a group of neighborhoud boys lured me to a forest where the made me undress. No women did that.
I have had a great female secondary school teacher though.
“It is too bad that every single experience you have had with men has been horrible, so much so that all you can do is make sweeping generalizations about how horrible they are”
I highly doubt that even most of her experiences with men have been horrible. But I do suspect, as you describe in your article (regarding sexism in the workplace), the negative is what she has been trained to look for, and now it’s all she can see.
You made a lot of accusations about me but you don’t even know me. You said I turn “incredibly vicious” if a woman criticizes me or outperforms me and you said that women should fear me because I’m dangerous. You said all I’m good for is sperm… My first reaction was pain and then anger, but then I realized that I also make sweeping generalizations about women. About how they don’t really want equality and take advantage of the legal system, and about how they demonize men like me in the way this author described, and that’s not fair. Because… Read more »
Great article. Love the attitude and will carry it with me today
Holy shit! This is a million stars!
I really like this article. It was just the sexual abuse/stealing as equally traumatic that made my eyes bulge. Sexual abuse is so much more damaging than theft of material items. Sexual abuse is torture and its victims (real victims) are often suicidal for a long time afterwards. I just don’t see how you can align that to theft in any way, shape or form. If you are just talking about encounters that you wished hadn’t happened but that didn’t mentally destroy you and change your sexual nature forever, then I’d say abuse is a dangerous word to use.
Thanks for commenting Catrianna. I did not mean it as a direct comparison that sexual abuse was as traumatic as stealing. Not by a long shot, and I’m sorry if it came across that way. My point was more that overall, there are people that can do you harm, and worrying about that harm based on gender is not something that has helped me as a person.
I’d like to know what is meant with sexual abuse. Feminist have used sexual abuse for: “He looked at my breasts before he looked in my eyes” or even rape. So yeah, I’d say theft is worse than a guy, who looks at your boobs, but obviously “better” than being raped. I don’t like those umbrella terms, because I don’t really know what someone is talking about. Girlwriteswhat wrote a blog here about how feminists misuse the word rape. Bad sex is no rape, and it isn’t sexual abuse, it’s an accident, one the guy actually might feel bad for.… Read more »
Fear of men tends to be a very conservative force, not a radical one. Some people blame radical feminism for the fear of men, but if that’s true it’s backfired quite a bit. Seeing men as predatory has helped to reinforce traditional gender roles, not just challenge them. For example, in the world of childcare and children’s education. A man who sincerely wants to work with kids as a career will often have to face the suspicion that he’s a pedophile, especially if he expresses too much enthusiasm for his job. Not the *wrong* enthusiasm, simply too much enthusiasm. Any… Read more »
“reinforced BY fear.”
Honestly, yes, I would say that if it is the intention of radical feminists to free people from traditional gender roles and biases, they are being counter productive. In fact, I would say that I have observed no other group doing more to promote fear of men on the part of women. I would further submit that of the many, many female social workers I have known, all identified as radical feminists and a significant majority (I can think of only 6 exceptions) expressed a fear of men which they considered to be justified by their radical feminist ideology. These… Read more »
Very perceptive, wellokaythen & HidingFromDinosaurs – through being suspicious of men who work with kids, writing divorce laws that are blantantly biased against men, and other things like this, our society is ingraining into the male subconscious the lie that “caring for children” is a feminine trait – and then we’re surprised at the large number of absentee fathers when they grow up so immersed in the idea that being male makes them have less of a stake in the lives of children that they don’t even realize they believe in it.
I find that men are feared based on roles, but these traditional notions of gender also seep into feminism. men are often feared as being abusive or potential rapists on campus. there are a lot of government funding put towards fear. the fear of men is systemic and is not tied to a feminist or conservative ideology.
Hmm, good article. I like the point about statistics. In fact my personal idea of the meaning of prejudice revolves around them – it’s treating an individual based on a statistic, not as an individual. And bravely said for speaking out about competence. While male rapists have done much to contribute to the “women live in constant fear of rape” meme that gets put around quite a lot, that is something women themselves can go a long way towards dealing with, by refusing to live in fear. It’s neither sexist nor victim blaming – we see it in individual lives… Read more »
Yes to this, great way of articulating it: “Prejudice is treating an individual based on a statistic, not as an individual.”
I’d like to tell you a different story, but related. Society teaches women survival techniques, but not men. Maybe along with teaching women not to be unnecessarily afraid, we need to teach our sons to be a bit more careful. I read a post on a feminist website that complained that women are taught not to leave their drinks unattended, but if things had gone differently, I might have wished that I was taught the same thing. My friends wanted to go clubbing in hopes of hooking up with some women. They wanted me to come and I wasn’t in… Read more »
Another woman’s take on the matter:
http://www.avoiceformen.com/miscellaneous/my-name-is-typhonblue-and-i-am-a-survivor-of-rape-hysteria/