Men deserve more voices talking for them, writes GirlWritesWhat, and that’s why she’s doing it.
I’m not a traditionalist woman. I’m bisexual. I’m kind of a dirty old man when it comes to my attitudes about sex, and I’m masculine enough in some ways to pull it off without ever having been burdened with the label of slut. Moreover, I write erotic fiction, much of it with bi-male and bi-female themes (and no, I’m not telling any of you all my pen name, so don’t bother asking). Though I was a stay-at-home mom for the first five years of my marriage, and though I found that role fulfilling and the work intrinsically valuable, I did not feel myself again until I got back into the paid workforce. I am the last person on earth who would wish to return to the world of a hundred years ago.
I’ve been sexually assaulted. I was sexually harassed as a 23 year old woman to the point where I left a job I’d held for four years. I would even regard the last six years of my marriage as emotionally and psychologically abusive.
I’m divorced, have three kids, and grievances against my ex that any reasonable man or woman would likely see as entirely justified. I still struggle with my anger over things he did during our marriage, and tried to do after it was over. The fact that after two and a half years, the only money that has ever changed hands between us has been from me to him only adds insult to injury.
During my travels online through the rugged and often inhospitable landscape of the Men’s Rights Movement, I have been required to “prove my credentials” as a logical and reasonable human being more times than I care to mention. I have had to “prove my credentials” as a woman who did not screw over her ex during her divorce. I have had to “prove my credentials” as not merely a traditionalist woman who wants to go back to men supporting women while women stay at home. This is an environment that is often hostile to women until they have paid their dues. And even when your dues are paid (and paid and paid, lol) you pay in other ways.
I have had to sit and grind my teeth when men in the movement complain that “That bitch got MY house. It was MY property because I paid for it while SHE stayed home,” and resist the urge to remind them that unpaid domestic labor has value too, and that women’s denial of that value in the early days of feminism is part of why men and women are in this mess today. That if she was the kind of wife and mother I’d been when I stayed at home, and he’d had to pay her a fair-market wage for her child-care, housekeeping and maybe even home/yard maintenance duties, her income might have been almost as high as his own during the marriage.
As the survivor of a sexual assault that I suffered as a 14-year-old virgin who hadn’t had her first period yet, I’ve had to sit and grind my teeth time and again at the glib attitude many in the movement have toward rape. If the system has a default assumption that all accusers are telling the truth and all accused are lying pieces of shit, many in the MRM have a bias that leans too far in the opposite direction. I am a firm believer in always believing an accuser–when it comes to providing victims’ services such as counselling and medical treatment. I am also a firm believer in the due process rights of the accused during police investigations and criminal trials, feel a university’s involvement in a sexual assault case should be limited to dialling 911 and letting the criminal justice system take it from there, and that the identity of the accused should be withheld by authorities until he’s convicted. I believe feminism’s elevation of rape-victim status to a bizarre combination of almost religious idolatry and kid-glove handling harms women in very insidious ways. But at the same time, the way some in the MRM talk about rape…well, it upsets me.
I’ve had to wade through dozens of news pieces about female perpetrators of spousal assault, stalking, hideously violent assaults on innocent people, sexual and physical abuse of children, infanticide, premeditated murder of husbands and boyfriends, atrocities beyond counting, held vengefully aloft by the MRM as proof that women are as likely to be sociopathic, psychotic, hateful, brutal, selfish assholes as men are. Story after story after story about yet another woman’s unsubstantiated claims of abuse leading to yet another man losing his kids and yet more kids losing their father, more lives destroyed by women who weren’t even the ones scorned because THEY are more likely to initiate the divorce. A steady diet of misdeeds perpetrated by women on men and innocent kids, enough to turn anyone’s stomach.
It gets tiresome. It gets disheartening. It gets burdensome. It even gets a little scary sometimes, when I realize just how angry some of these men are. Given that many of my personal experiences with men have been…ahh…less than wonderful, given how initially hostile the MRM can be to anyone with a vagina, and how insensitive they can seem on issues that have affected me very deeply from the opposite side of the gender divide, why do I do it? Here’s why:
I used to live in a tiny, isolated town with a resource-based economy–mostly logging and sand/gravel. When the construction industry in the US went kablooie in 2008, most of the jobs in that town disappeared. I work as a server–tips are a huge portion of my income, but that portion depends on how many people eat out. In late 2008, people where I lived stopped eating out, and my income started to go down. And down. And down.
My ex has never paid child support, and had always enjoyed unlimited access to our kids, at my expense, because my kids love their dad and have a right to see him. He exercised that access an average of one night every 6-8 weeks. My nearest family–my parents and sister–lived 2000km away in a city with a robust economy, but the few times I’d suggested moving there, my ex wouldn’t hear of it. His assertion that “How do you expect me to pay child support? I can’t even support myself around here. I don’t even have food in my fridge,” without extrapolating from that just how impossible it would be for me to support four people on my own in the same local economy, and how no food in my fridge would mean his own kids going hungry…well, the level of his tunnel-vision and selfishness was almost surreal to me. I felt like my ex had not only effectively abandoned my kids, he’d abandoned logic, reason, reality, sanity.
In February of 2010, I finally looked at my mounting debts and decided there was no way I could continue to live where I did, supporting four people on my own, and not go bankrupt. That staying solely so my kids could see their dad one night every couple of months, if and when he could be bothered, wasn’t worth the price I and my kids were paying. My debts alone, not including my mortgage, had climbed to almost twice my yearly income at the time. I was paying the mortgage with my Visa card. There were no jobs to be had. And my nearest family lived 2000km away–I really was going it alone.
I was stuck between survival and my own honor. If I stayed, my family would be destroyed. If I did the honorable thing and informed him of my decision, he’d bring an action that would only force us all to stay where we were until I’d spent thousands I didn’t have in legal fees just to get it on a judge’s desk, which would only destroy us all the faster.
And my ex’s objections to what I’d done were dismissed out of hand. I’d moved his kids 2000km away from him, without even informing him I was doing it, and I didn’t even need to present my affidavit to the judge–all I had to say was that I’d moved for work. She took it as a given that she should side with me over him, and made her decision with a sanguinity and certainty that I found appalling, even as I almost wept with relief.
Shortly before I had moved, I’d re-entered the sexual marketplace. I had a brief fling with a married man. I was his first affair, and he struggled with his guilt over stepping out on his wife, even though he’d been sleeping on the couch for two years. Conversely, his wife had been cheating on him for years–remember, this is a small town where everyone knows every bit of dirt about everyone else. I don’t suppose she struggled very much over her own guilt feelings, since she didn’t care to hide her infidelities. He was so unhappy in his marriage I can only describe it as despair because he couldn’t see any way to fix it, but he stayed because he was terrified–not worried, not scared, but terrified–of losing his children.
It wasn’t until after I moved and the judge made her 8-second ruling that I realized just how justifiable his fear had been.
I was raised by parents who told me to never only read the headlines or listen to the soundbites, but to read the entire article and think rationally about things before I formed opinions. To not only regurgitate the information I am fed, but to thoroughly digest it, apply logic and my own experiences to what I hear and read, and then decide if it makes sense. To question. To examine. To look at problems from many angles. To seek out differing points of view because, hey, you just might learn something–even if that something is that people can be full of shit.
They taught me words like “sophistry” and what it means. They taught me that evidence is everything, and statistics can be made to say anything you want, depending on your agenda. They taught me that sometimes people lie so convincingly to themselves, that even when they’re lying to you they feel like they’re telling the truth.
As a teenager, I mostly hung out with guys, because guys were more accepting of the ways I’m different. Because I’m more guy-like than girlie, they never guarded their speech around me, nor do any of my male coworkers now. And though I’ve been deeply wronged by a few men, I know from my other experiences with men that that the vast majority of boys and men are more good than bad. They’re flawed, but they’re still human. They’re not women, but they’re still human.
I have three children. Two sons and a daughter. And as much as I may complain about how much trouble they can be, and despite the fact that I’ve been known to threaten to knock their heads together when they annoy me, I love them and am as proud as fuck of them. I want them to be happy and to succeed in life, however they choose to measure their success.
But I look at the world they are growing up in, a world where my boys will soon be facing the same problems men face are facing now, only worse. A world where my daughter also will be reaping the consequences of living in a society that values the rights of one gender over another and no one seems to give a shit. A world where everything women naturally are is seen as admirable, and everything men naturally are is seen as a pathology to be cured. A world where even women who commit the most heinous and atrocious acts are instantly assumed to have been failed by the system or somehow justified in their actions, while men who commit similar acts are instantly assumed to have done it out of jealousy, anger, a desire to control, aggression, or just…well,maleness. I don’t want my sons to live in a world where no matter how good they are, they will be told they are bad–or my daughter to live in a world where she will always be able to blame someone or something else for her decisions and actions.
I want my daughter to grow up to be a woman who owns her own shit, and my boys to grow into men who are not forced to own everyone else’s shit on top of their own.
The voices that speak for feminism are millions upon millions. They are so legion, they need only whisper to be heard. The voices speaking for equality for men and boys are so few, they’re drowned out by the opposition even when they scream. I don’t know what I can do other than raise my kids to be able to think on their own, and add my voice to the issues I believe in that I feel are underserved. That more people advocate for, and sympathize with, animal rights than men’s rights is a travesty that stymies me. I suppose if men could somehow make themselves look as cute and as helpless as a baby seal, things would be different, but they can’t. Men and boys are in jeopardy–really and for true, honest, not just kinda-sorta jeopardy–and they deserve more voices speaking for them.
So that’s what I’m doing.
Originally appeared at Owning Your Shit.
—Photo uair01/Flickr
I am an egalitarian feminist and I believe that the same prejudice that oppresses women also oppresses men. They are the same beast. How can you define a woman’s role without also defining a man’s role? That’s the problem. This article was pretty thought provoking until you used the term “sexual marketplace”, however. That is an extreme misigynist concept that states that a persons worth is based on their sexual market value, which is in turn based on a woman’s looks (and little else) and a mans ability to manipulate women by preying on thier insecurities. When typed into google,… Read more »
You know, in the past I will freely admit that I have posted here looking for a good argument.
In the last few months I feel I have grown (very very slightly) by learning that sometimes it’s just better to walk away.
It’s interesting because I can definitely see the tendency to argue about things in other posters.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y
Monty Python Life Lessons. 🙂
Well seeing as I’m commenting all over GWW’s ‘Patriarchy Shmatriarchy’ article, and coming up against a lot of opposition, I’d just like to comment on this article. (I know this is a bit old, but I figure someone might be looking at it.) First, I think it takes great courage to share such personal details of your life, so thank you for being so open. Secondly, I agree with everything you’ve written in the article. I haven’t read the comments so I don’t know what I think about them.
But as to this article…I say, ‘Yes,’ and ‘Amen, sister.’ 🙂
Thanks for the open mind 😀
Yeah, well I try. I mean the tone of some of the things she says in the article might be a bit more extreme. But I agree with the idea behind it. Men have rights, and unfortunately there aren’t a lot of people out there pointing that out.
So… I figured out why I hadn’t read this piece before. Apparently Blogger has a bug whereby it doesn’t tell you when there’s more than one page of articles when you use the archival links to view an entire month. So back in May 2011 GWW wrote 13 articles and only seven are displayed when you click on that link in the archives.
To MH, GWW, and typhoon and anybody else who cares to read, I have a few things to add about my situation. Firstly, I didn’t expect this to become a big verbal WWF throwdown. In fact, the whole topic was drudging a lot of bad memories for me, so I even gave MH the last word on the sub-thread about my sister/julia’s mom 1 or 2 pages back (I saw that he had posted, but just brushed past it). Secondly, Typhoon and GWW (and others I may have missed) thanks for articulating my point in a way that I couldn’t.… Read more »
I can’t even begin to tell you how powerful that was, and how heartfelt, and how much I wish you well.
Thanks
@GirlWritesWhat I’m interested if you will help me and others understand your point of view? You have stated ” Both Typhon and I have repeatedly stated that returning to an abusive situation, or remaining in one when one can reasonably leave IS a CHOICE.” I have no issue with CHOICE, but I would like you to me very specific in explaining what you mean by “reasonably” or even “reasonable”. The terms are so plastic and work on a sliding scale, so I wonder if you will be kind enough to explain what you mean and define the scale you apply… Read more »
Disabled: Someone who is largely or completely dependent on a caregiver to provide the necessities of life. This would include, in my mind, nursing home residents suffering from dementia, para and quadriplegics who require the assistance of caregivers, the blind or deaf who have been kept unaware of the assistance available to them, and the like. Anyone who is mentally incompetent, and whose personal and legal decisions are made for them by others. All of these people are vulnerable, because they lack the means to exercise their agency. These are people who are unaware that they will be helped if… Read more »
@GirlWritesWhat – I wonder why you keep shifting the goal posts? You keep adding pieces to, or rather having to chop piece off, the “Agency” meme in order to save it from being false. That is so common when you are dealing with Fundamental Attribution Error. Brush away the error with excuses – Post hoc rationalisation and side track issues. I believe it was Mark Neil who posited the question “Are you familiar with the term psychological projection?” I can answer that one very easily. Yes! There are a whole set of “Projective techniques” and “Defence sequences” which individuals will… Read more »
@TyphonBlue – I wonder if you will read all of this or just cherry pick? I do recommend you read it all. Link back to Comment. With reference to the Tim Hetherington piece and the reported paraphrased comment: “Some people are attracted to the kind of situations that ended up killing him and they can’t let it go until it’s their time to do so.” Is that victim blaming? Is it victim blaming to notice that some people chose to go into situations of potential violence and abuse repeatedly? You seem to be mixing up two matters which end up… Read more »
Media Hound, “Ever had to deal with someone with undiagnosed and untreated PTSD and told them it’s all up to them and they need to just get some Agency and use it?” I AM someone with diagnosed PTSD. The only thing that got me over the abuse I suffered was to realize it *WAS* a situation. A situation I had no role in creating, was not responsible for existing, but I, nevertheless, had the choice to exit or continue once I was legally and financially capable of doing so. Once all the exterior barriers to exiting the situation are removed… Read more »
@Typhon – Could you please clarify what you mean by the following:
“I AM someone with diagnosed PTSD. The only thing that got me over the abuse I suffered was to realize it *WAS* a situation.”
Do you differentiate the “situation” from the PTSD, and hold them as completely separate and in no way interacting?
There were other environmental factors (living through being bombed) that likely contributed to the PTSD aside from the abuse.
I believe the abuse was a partial cause of the PTSD, but once I was out of that abusive environment then what, exactly, is continuing the PTSD?
@Typhon – I will take the reference to being bombed as indicating a separate trauma. That would indicate at least two traumas have occurred 1) bombing 2) abuse – and can indicate being Re-traumatised – which raises the risks and effects of PTSD into Complex and multifactorial PTSD. This is the most difficult to manage and treat. Many people who have PTSD will stay in abuse situations as they adapt to manage the PTSD in that environment – it can cause people to stay as a protection mechanism, and leaving becomes a trigger for worsening PTSD – the person therefore… Read more »
“Many people who have PTSD will stay in abuse situations as they adapt to manage the PTSD in that environment – it can cause people to stay as a protection mechanism, and leaving becomes a trigger for worsening PTSD – the person therefore stays as the least worst option as they see it.” What this sounds like is exactly how I was mismanaging my PTSD when I was at my worst. I essentially confined myself to a room in my house off and on for about ten years. (Ever heard about those people who live in bathrooms? That was me.)… Read more »
@Typhon I use the phrase “‘they can then be motivated’ very deliberately as the motivation can be Dispositional or Situational. Often it is situational as the levels of abuse or the effects of abuse increase – situational – and that shifts the balance to least worst being leaving. At all stages the person has the ability to act, but the psychological burden of what some would see as the correct action is too much for the person. You indicate that for you a change came from CBT and that indicates that your motivation became dispositional – you were not forced… Read more »
Media Hound, I’m not saying one size fits all. I’m saying that size will only be tried on when the person is ready to make the choice to do so. “You indicate that for you a change came from CBT and that indicates that your motivation became dispositional – you were not forced into a least worst option – you developed the capacity to take a better option.” Dispositional sounds essentially like ‘when you make the choice rather then the choice being _forced_ on you, then you will start to move out of the cycle of abuse.’ And that’s exactly… Read more »
But why the bathroom? I’d’ve picked the bedroom. Well — I did pick the bedroom for many years when I had depression.
Perhaps you should tell us how it happened…?
Er… maybe some day when more people in my family are dead.
Think about what you’re saying here MH. You have someone who has no exterior pressures leading them back to the abusive situation. None. The only reason why they’re going back is because they are _choosing to do so_. And you’re telling them that this choice is not under their control? Then whose control is it under? Who is controlling them putting one foot in front of the other and walking back to the abusive situation? Who? Even if they are mentally influenced by abuse or PTSD, *telling* them that they have no control over their own brain space sounds like… Read more »
@ Typhon – I fear that you are reading what you want to see and not what is written. “You’re essentially saying that there is no solution, no hope and no point. Nothing the person can do will ever give them a way out of their situation. They just have to hope and prey and beg the abuser to stop. It’s all up to him or her.” Can you please “Quote Directly” where it is have written comments and views where I have supposedly indicated the following? Please include hyper-links to the relevant posts quoted. It seems that you are… Read more »
So what you’re saying is that no one can ever speak about any issue, because every issue looks different depending on what each individual’s situation and perspective is? There is no objective reality, therefore no such thing as truth, therefore no one should ever presume to present their reality as actual reality.
Sounds very post-modernist/perception is reality/the Principia Mathematica is actually a “rape manual” to me. Because that’s what defining reality subjectively looks like. It looks like calculus=rape.
Wow.
I understand you better now.
There is a post below for your direct attention – It may take a few minutes to be visible as it contains links which have to pass moderation.
I await your response to that post.
@GirlWritesWhat – I have reread in detail my post addressed to Typhon, quoting her and my observations and concerns. I am unable to account for how you take what has been written and from that create your response – there is no rational or valid connection. it would appear, again, that you are inventing what has been written and responding to ideas, views and comments that have nothing to do with me. It appears that you are inventing a reality. I will now have to ask that you stop doing that. If you wish to attribute ideas and views to… Read more »
@ Media Hound
I am leery of reading your observations or concerns. And I’ll tell you right now that I’m finding what you’re writing triggering.
If you want to discuss what I’ve said that’s fine, but I will ask you not to discuss me. I am not a science project for you to dissect.
Seems like you’ve all been pretty clear.
You’ve repeatedly objected to my reiteration that even abused people, in reality, have the agency to make choices that will affect their situations. (Especially women, who have all kinds of resources and assistance to help them.) I can only assume that you believe their feelings of helplessness and objectification are valid–that they are based on a reality based on perception rather than objectivity. The problem with perception being equivalent to reality is that it is simply not true a lot of the time. The man who does not dare call the police because he knows he’ll be the one arrested… Read more »
As for your question, how many people who are abused seek advice before leaving? That’s a moot point. They have all of pop culture and the media telling them they’re helpless rather than strong and effectual, so why would they seek advice elsewhere? And your accusation of abuse on my part is…well, it’s extremely tiring. You choose to remain engaged in this conversation. You choose to read my comments. Characterizing my opinion as abusive is about as objectively accurate as a “concerned citizen” who told me the MRM were terrorists because an MRA had stated that men going their own… Read more »
@GirlWritesWhat I note that you have yet again deliberately failed to answer direct questions – and you are attempting to divert attention away form where they have been asked – so here is the link to direct you back to them https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/why-i-advocate-for-mens-rights/comment-page-2/#comment-100372 As I noted “How familiar are you with the mechanisms of gasligting – deliberately acting to misrepresent reality to others? It is an interesting mechanism via the net, as it is not aimed solely at one person but all readers.” Why are you not following standard Netiquette and addressing questions at the point in a comment stream where… Read more »
Explain how a voluntary conversation has become abusive. All you need do is stop reading my comments. You HAVE AGENCY. And yes, I’m familiar with gaslighting–the deliberate misrepresentation of reality. I find it ironic that I–someone who is stating objective reality, and would state objective reality to ANY person, abused or not, at any time–is being accused of gaslighting, while the person who characterizes stating reality as abuse is portraying himself as a hero of some sort. The fact that you are actually gaslighting me is telling. Are you unable to accept that women, or abused people, have agency? Your… Read more »
@Girl Please provide evidence that supports your view that I have ever stated or indicated that as you phrase it ; “Are you unable to accept that women, or abused people, have agency? Your attitude of sheltering and coddling smacks of projection, actually.” I note you again present statements in the form of questions. I note again that you attempt to clearly misrepresent my views and beliefs. WHY? You have been asked to account for this conduct and to stop it – and in that you have Agency, which you willingly fail to use. Again I have already stated “I… Read more »
How can she be misrepresenting your views with questions? Are you not yourself misrepresenting her by claiming her requests for your clarification is in fact stating your view? Is it not possible that in all your doublespeak, looking down upon others and “putting others on notice”, from on high your pedestal, that you may have actually given cause for others to believe you would deny agency, given not one, but two people have received this perception from you. And I’m curious, this “you are on notice” business, is this intended as some kind of threat? I have seen you make… Read more »
“You have been asked to account for this conduct and to stop it – and in that you have Agency, which you willingly fail to use.” Um…I don’t think that word means what you think it means. What the word “agency” means is that I can act upon the world of my own will and affect my life and others’ lives positively or negatively. You say I am failing to use my agency because I am not obeying *your* rules of discourse or doing what you say I should do. But here’s the thing. This agency? This here is MINE.… Read more »
@ Girl “Tell me. You’re involved in the domestic violence industry? Where the prevailing dogma is the Duluth Model? If so, then IMO you are absolutely not credible. You have two women, both of whom have survived abuse and trauma, telling you what is the necessary outlook for a person to perceive themselves as strong and in charge of their lives.” Again you are fabricating a reality which has nothing to do with me or my views. You are aware that this board is open to many people and readers. Yet even when you have been directly asked to stop… Read more »
@ MediaHound: Abusive to whom, and in whose opinion? Are you the arbiter of what is abuse and what is not? I have “been put on notice”? By whom? In the comment thread of my own post, after being invited to contribute here, and when my comments are apparently passing whatever moderation policies exist here? Who exactly is putting me on notice? I own my shit. I own my own participation in a psychologically abusive marriage, and I own that I grabbed my power and agency and walked away from it. How is that abusive? How is telling others like… Read more »
“If that was true, as you seem to believe, it would not be possible to domestically abuse another – they would choose to not be influenced and affected – and that would be the end of the matter.” Haha, that’s only true if you deny people agency. You feel that the only choice they would make is to not be influenced or affected, just like you assume that I would be exercising my agency by conforming to your rules of discourse and ceasing to be “rude and abusive”. Both Typhon and I have repeatedly stated that returning to an abusive… Read more »
@ Girl “Answer me this: Who does an abused person have the power to change? The abused person, or their abuser?” Technically Both! But then again – as you are so fixated on the idea of agency having only one function and only able to facilitate change in one person – and given how you have so actively attributed ideas and views to me which I do not hold – I will be waiting to be attacked and misrepresented by return. You are on notice that your repeated and deliberate misrepresentation of my views and beliefs are abusive so you… Read more »
Technically, no. Barring psychosis, which is a serious mental issue, we are all in control of ourselves and ourselves alone. We can affect and influence others, but the choice to be influenced or affected by us IS THEIRS. Just as you are choosing to engage with me, and characterizing my responses as abuse (when you could easily disengage and disregard all I’ve said), everyone else is capable of seeing themselves as agents who act, rather than objects who are acted upon. You are an agent. You are choosing to engage me. You are not an object, no matter how much… Read more »
@ Girl “Barring psychosis, which is a serious mental issue, we are all in control of ourselves and ourselves alone. We can affect and influence others, but the choice to be influenced or affected by us IS THEIRS. ” If that was true, as you seem to believe, it would not be possible to domestically abuse another – they would choose to not be influenced and affected – and that would be the end of the matter. You have an extreme bias towards the Dispositional and away from the Situational – it is the most extreme manifestation of the “Fundamental… Read more »
@ Media Hound This entire conversation is in regards to one specific incidence. John’s sister. John describes how he and his family attempted to remove every external expedient to her leaving her abusive husband and yet, even when she was safely away from the abusive situation, she chose to return. There are people who have no external pressures (external being physical, financial or legal realities, etc.) who return to abusive or destructive environments. The only thing that is making them do this is carried in their heads. Whatever is in your head is under your control if you’re not mentally… Read more »
The irony is that once I took responsibility for my emotions and started to gain distance and clarity, I realized more and more how little responsibility I had for her actions and words. The more I could deconstruct the entire edifice of bullshit she had constructed to ‘excuse’ her behaviour and blame it on me.
I think that’s because I took that first step creating boundaries. My emotions are mine, not yours.
@ TyphonBlue But let’s put all that aside. What do you suggest people do if they’re in a situation like John’s family is with his sister? They’ve removed all the exterior barriers to her leaving her abusive husband and are watching her walk right back to him over and over again. How can they stop her from putting one foot in front of the other and walking back into the abuse? How can anyone stop her? I will address patterns but not the individual case which of course belongs to John’s sister who I have no contact with – and… Read more »
“You seem surprised that a person who is dealing with abuse would return or expose themselves to the abuser.” Not really. “Brain plasticity causes the person to rapidly bond with captor/abuser as a survival adaptation.” Brain plasticity also allows for an individual to rewire his or her brain to not respond in self-destructive ways to stimuli. “There are often patterns linked to extended threat of harm which the person is controlled by and with – that they suffer increased psychological distress and anxiety – and the only way the person can relive this short term is to return to the… Read more »
@Typhon “Brain plasticity also allows for an individual to rewire his or her brain to not respond in self-destructive ways to stimuli. ” Depending upon the stimili and levels plasticity may allow change on one direction, and it proves very hard and even impossible to reverse the change. In PTSD Amygdala hyperactivation can prove irreversible, or reversion to a more normal state can take prolonged period of time measured in tears and even decades. The same can also be true in such matters as Chronic Pain Syndrome as well as other chronic neurological conditions. “Also, I’ve noticed that a lot… Read more »
Addendum: there is also one major factor of Shelters/Refuges which can also be an important factor in people arriving and leaving shortly afterwards. Shelters/Refuges can be highly emotional charged environments and abuse is known to occur within them. Just because the venue is set up to cater for those fleeing abuse, it does not mean that abusive behaviour used by the women themselves in their relationship stops upon arrival. There can be frequent issues of bullying, power hierarchies that develop and many forms of acting out. Some women find this too much to cope with and so will leave and… Read more »
“I did find this illuminating “Surely telling them the truth about this should be allowed, even if it’s an uncomfortable truth?”. Funny how it is presented as a question when in fact it is a rhetorical question form a persons disposition. Sorry – but who’s truth is that? – who is doing the telling? – who is giving themselves agency and does not care about the disposition or situation comfort of the person? “I’m telling you for your own good!” – and exactly how many abusers use that mind set and language to control both the victim’s situation and disposition?”… Read more »
@GirlWritesWhat I’m still awaiting a direct answer to a direct question you have been asked before and now it is being asked for a third time: once twice and now the third – Do you know the number of DV affected people who seek legal advice prior to leaving? I await your direct answer to my direct question – it is not rhetorical. Beyond that, you seem to yet again be deciding what has been written and viewing it through some very strange lens – and then attributing to others views and ideas they don’t have – even inventing reality… Read more »
“I’m still awaiting a direct answer to a direct question you have been asked before and now it is being asked for a third time: once twice and now the third – Do you know the number of DV affected people who seek legal advice prior to leaving?” 1: Relevance? Why does she need to know, and what difference does it make, to the point that someone who is being abused is capable of getting on a bus and seeking legal assistance? 2: How can it NOT be rhetorical? You already acknowledged her point: “The DV affected person is far… Read more »
@Mark Goblowsky Neil – You say “This is not indicative to a reasonable discussion.” – to which I agree absolutely, but I do believe you are missing a number of issues which you may have failed to notice or recognise. I have had a vested interest in the unfolding dialogue which started on another page here. It has been fascinating to watch as people dealing with the Complexity of DV – IPV – Abuse have had their realities and the complexities reduced to the supposed Magic Talisman of Agency. It’s almost Cult Like – Agency is all – I will… Read more »
“but I do believe you are missing a number of issues which you may have failed to notice or recognise.” Perhaps if you stopped positioning yourself within the conversation as an authority, you may actualy be able to learn something. But instead you presume to know what is true, and act as a teacher, passing on your lessons onto the students, but so self assured in your own knowledge that you are unwilling to allow anyone elses message sink in, for how could a student teach you anything. But you are not a teacher here, you are not an authority,… Read more »
Will you quit this MH? Quit with the passive aggressive approach. I don’t think there’s much more to be said by either of you but quit going round and round. I’m saying this to you not her because I have the sense that YOU feel people haven’t heard you. If you have a point to make then just make it without the games.
PLEASE, quit squabbling. You said at the start you respected GirlWritesWhat from her work. Was that true? If it isn’t any more you might need to take a break.
@ David. I have been quite clear of my views and that they have changed – and the reasons why. I would like to make it clear that I have not been squabbling. I have been closely studying and addressing claims and conduct that are highly revealing. I have also been addressing the issue of a person repeatedly telling me what I believe, how I feel, how I think, my attitudes to others – and all from someone who has stated they don’t know me from “a hole in the ground”. It’s most odd what they keep supposedly filling that… Read more »
My question to you MH is what on earth are you thinking getting into an argument with two women? And these particular two as well. I’ve seen Typhon in several areas and she’s no shrinking violet. I think you’re going to need some aerial support -:)
@Elissa – thank you for your vote of “No Confidence”! You will have to forgive me if it makes me laugh! P^)
I have great respect for Typhon!
But, I have to make clear that I am no shrinking violet when it comes to dealing with others, who have a disposition to domination, and patterns of conduct which involve Shrinking Talismans which they attempt to hide under poorly constructed devices and well recognised patterns – and all under the guise and umbrella of discussing DV – IPV – Abuse.
@MediaHound
I have also observed on pattern about your communication style. You have a bad habit of beating around the bush and lecturing others. IMHO it would be better if you stick to the points of contention instead of long rhetoric and please stop using judgmental phrases.
I read his first comment, wherein he praised my writing, with a sinking feeling in my stomach. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not uncomfortable with praise or admiration or respect, but there was something unctuous about the tone that made me think that if I let this person down in any way, there’d probably be trouble. I do not think agency is a magical talisman that can cure all ills. But the two specific situations mentioned in this thread, and many other similar cases, are ones where the victims would be better served recognizing and embracing their agency and power… Read more »
@ girl “The fact that he’s ascribing a dogmatic and blanket view of the issue of DV to me is…irritating, especially since I’ve repeatedly stated in this thread that there are cases where individuals have no agency to embrace,….” How odd – you started with the 100% agency position and only changed that when challenged. Are we playing with reality again to mislead others? P^) And I believe I did say at the outset: “There is a massive complexity of experience that comes with DV and abuse – and I fear that some are straying into Amateur Psychology Night! Insufficient… Read more »
@MediaHound In the present discussion, I feel you are the one who is constantly framing and re-framing the reference. This opinion piece is not about domestic violence (DV), but about the author’s personal experiences that led her to advocacy of men’s rights. The topic of DV came up when Julia mentioned the case of her mother and John of her sister. In both the cases, the victims of abuse could have saved themselves the trouble if they could only firmly make up their mind escaping the abuse. During the discussion any reasonable person would believe that the two cases were… Read more »
I must also point out the passive aggressiveness of shortening her name to @girl when you were previously writing her name out in full. The combination of using this passive aggressive name truncation in conjunction with a lecturing and authoritarian, teacher like tone, would be no different then someone calling you hound and telling you to “sit” and “no barking”, or telling you “bad boy”.
Show some decorum.
Here is my take on all this. “God only help those who help themselves” The abused can help themselves by calling police, consulting lawyer, going to DV shelters or may be killing the abuser whatever deems fit in the situation. As I previously stated in a comment that there are no SWAT teams doing door-to-door rescue for the abused. The abused themselves have to seek out help or suffer in silence, there is no third way out. It reminds me of an incident when I was in school. A boy in our neighborhood was bullied by a bigger boy. He… Read more »
@Rapses “Here is my take on all this. “God only help those who help themselves” The abused can help themselves by calling police, consulting lawyer, going to DV shelters or may be killing the abuser whatever deems fit in the situation. As I previously stated in a comment that there are no SWAT teams doing door-to-door rescue for the abused. The abused themselves have to seek out help or suffer in silence, there is no third way out.” Well – given the simplistic views of FV – IPV – Abuse which most people have been indoctrinated into, I’m not surprised… Read more »
I can puncture your example with just one statement “what if she is too scared for her life or family honor and does exercise her agency in seeking help when opportunity arises.” All the infrastructure i.e charts, translations service etc. are of no use till the victim actively seeks out help.
edit – does not exercise her agency in seeking help when opportunity arises.
@Rapses – Oh I agree with you – it is so simple for the Bubbles to be burst, where the situation overwhelms the person and no matter how you act to remove barriers to agency some will still not act. It is a massive factor in dealing with abuse in all areas – men- women – children. Most often you need time to lay the barriers down gently, brick by brick – there is so often no trite quick answer. When you find those barriers you have to analyse them, understand them and find ways to deal with that complexity… Read more »
@MediaHound
You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink. Telling people that they have agency and they should use it to get out of bad situation or improve their present situation is not inhuman, it is empowering. Some people are quite passive, they are used and abused by others. Nobody can help them if they do not change their own attitude. You can create theories and dogmas around their situation but the reality is that they are themselves part of the problem.
@ Rapses “Telling people that they have agency and they should use it to get out of bad situation or improve their present situation is not inhuman, it is empowering.” It depends on who it is being said to and even how. It is interesting to consider and look at the mechanics and practices linked to DV. Abusers undermine the psychology of their victims daily. oppressing them with the view and belief they have no power, no authority and basically no free will. If they evens how signs of free will they are cut down, mocked, undermined. So someone says… Read more »
Before you assume anything too bad about MH & Duluth Models I suggest you read this:
https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/what-is-a-good-man/comment-page-1/#comment-97696
I am sorry to butt in to a perfectly good screaming match but I am kinda hoping you’ll actually stick around and I know you’ve been busy lately with the YouTube stuff and your new found infamy.
This is what’s bugging me about all this.
I’m pretty sure that mine and GWW’s point is pretty non-controversial. Until people stop making choices out of fear, they will be controlled by fear. And only they can learn to make ‘dispositional’ choices rather then ‘situational choices.’ And of course there are people whose situations are so restrictive (psychosis, legal, financial and social obstacles, etc.) they aren’t capable of making dispositional choices.
So as far as I can tell this screaming match is over nothing at all.
Yep. But let’s see…I’m victim-blaming, gaslighting, abusive, etc…and for what? For indicating that the two specific situations discussed in this thread are examples of people who *could* leave but won’t. This reminds me of the response from many people when I blogged about my sexual assault and how I got through the immediate fear and to the other side of it. There was a lot of accusations of me having blamed myself for what happened because I chose to see myself as someone whose choices and actions contributed to putting myself at risk (and felt safe again because I didn’t… Read more »
@ Typon “So as far as I can tell this screaming match is over nothing at all.”???? Is that so? The position has gone from Agency to is all – and then it got shifted to some are actually excluded “There are some people who are truly incapable of real agency, for whatever reason–they’re mentally ill or disabled or institutionally oppressed (such as a male or minor abuse victim),” oh, and apparently psychosis is a reason to not have agency too – and then the position shrank even further so that it was ” Both Typhon and I have repeatedly… Read more »
@ MH You know how you’re upset about GWW putting ‘words into your mouth?’ “The position has gone from Agency to is all” I never said that agency was all. I explicitly said that there are also situational factors. No one can magic themselves out of psychosis, or legal barriers. All of this was in reference to one scenario. That of a woman given every single exterior support available to her and still choosing to go back to her abuser. The only way to say that’s not her choice is to remove agency completely from the picture. Now I am… Read more »
@typhon – sorry but it was claimed that all that was required was agency – and I did have to point out that the situation is far more complex than that! I find it odd too that in discussing your own situation you were surprised that I was able to illuminate situations around PTSD and how that can affect a person’s ability to utilise agency. The balance of the dispositional vs the situational. I find it odd that you indicate that people are being argumentative when rational discussion provides one set of answers, and yet being told you believe things… Read more »
Isn’t that what you’ve done to me? You’ve even gone so far as to imply that I am pro-torture because I would posit that someone who is disabled, mentally ill or incompetent, a minor, etc (or as you used in an effective example, a language barrier) does not have exercisable agency in a DV situation the way Julia’s mother and John’s sister *clearly do*. And frankly, agency does not exist where there is no ability to exercise it. Someone who *cannot act* does not have agency. Does this mean I think they are subhuman? Not at all. Just that *they… Read more »
GWW:
“I assign agency where it exists. And in the context of domestic violence, adult, female victims have a LOT of agency compared to any other victim,”
You better add the qualifiers “mentally competent and able-bodied” before this sentence gets seized upon as debate material.
Anyone who does that is arguing in bad faith. But thanks for the warning. 🙂
@ girlwriteswhat
I made at least 13 separate points in my posts – none about you.
So I wonder, when you write “Isn’t that what you’ve done to me?” – which point are you referring to?
I was addressing Typhon and her comments and points!
I can’t believe that any of the three principles have all that much daylight between their respective positions. It seems to be rather an argument over precisely when and to what extent the respective philosophies should be applied. It’s like watching three chefs argue about how much salt should go in. Of course that can make a whole lot of difference. I’m not saying the debate is trivial. But it’s not about the philosophies per se. It’s about what weight and due consideration they should have.
@David Ede – If I was to tell you who you are, what you think, what you believe and tell you that because I demand that is reality you are to be dismissed – I wonder how you would react? There is far more going on here than a difference in how to define terms of reference around a subject. P^) … but then again I think you know that! I find it odd that I am being told that I deny peoples agency when I have been on the front lines of doing the opposite for 30+ years. I… Read more »
I think the bigger problem is the driving ideology/epistemology/theory behind the feminist movement. Patriarchy Theory is very much invested in the idea that men have always been privileged relative to women, and that women have always been oppressed by The Patriarchy (not to be confused with “small p” patriarchy, which is simply referring to father-led families and patrilineal lines of descent). As evidence for this overarching theory as to how society works (a theory which, coincidentally, plays into our instinctive and cultural views of women as being in need of/deserving of protection and support, and men being potent and dangerous/violent,… Read more »
That’s some intense stuff:O I only hope intelligence prevails and we can all move towards egalitarian policies.
Thank-you for that comment, it’s quite informative.
The most unfortunate thing is that feminist theory dovetails so neatly with our instinctive perceptions of maleness and femaleness. That means they FEEL right to us, even when they’re dead wrong. It’s like the instinctive fears most people (and animals) have of snakes–cats laying their ears back and hissing are actually mimicking snakes (the shape of the head is almost identical to a hissing snake when they do this) to scare away enemies, that’s how deep these kinds of survival instincts can go. Same goes with cartoon characters from Bugs Bunny to Johnny Test having a facial structure that is… Read more »
Whereas I tend to see it as dating more from the industrial or Victorian period…
There are some cultural norms that stem from that period, sure, but the most fundamental and universal roles of men and women go back a lot farther than that, and some of our most basic perceptions of men and women do, too. In societies that are more survivalist (like Afghanistan, for instance) women who do wrong or seriously defy cultural edicts wrt behavior are seriously punished (though men are often subjected to equal or worse punishment for gender-equivalent transgressions), because, IMO, those societies cannot afford to allow protecting women to upset the social order. Social order is heavily prioritized because… Read more »
Powerful stuff GWW.
You comment about Academia really rang true to me, because I first started feeling uncomfortable with the idea of being a ‘feminist’ when I started taking Women’s Studies classes at university. (And a comment about why there weren’t Men’s Studies classes was met, by some, with the (inaccurate) stock reply: ‘All classes are Men’s Studies!’) I was excited to take classes that focused on femininity and female contributions to culture and arts (mostly literature), and I absolutely loved ‘feminist criticism’ when it came to literary studies (that was the only reason I actually was able ENJOY reading The Scarlet Letter),… Read more »
When I used to ask feminists for examples of women being worse off than men on a regular basis there were about five topics that would come up again and again and of course they were all the bunk topics. Because there are not real issues. DV and rape and the gender wage gap were the top scorers – all bunk as you say. What I found interesting was that another very popular “issue” put forward by feminists was “the vote”. And this was mostly back in the 90s but even so seven or eight decades too late really. So… Read more »
Why is voting bunk? Did you answer my question earlier about women and the vote?
I did. (search for “vote” maybe) The situation with the vote did not represent an area where women were oppressed. It was not an issue for most women. As I said most women opposed it. But there are other reasons why it is not correct to see it as an issue for women. Even beyond what I did say about the Australian ballot there, globally women were not far behind men in terms of getting the vote. In the UK for example most women got to vote for the first time as a result of the same bill in parliament… Read more »
Voting is a largely bunk issue because, when it comes to the entire history of voting rights being compared to a 24 hour day, women got that right about ten minutes after ordinary men did.
ht tp://www.rolereboot.org/life/details/2012-01-why-are-some-men-still-afraid-of-feminism This guy misses the point quite a bit. ht tp://jezebel.com/5873726/what-should-you-do-when-someone-you-love-becomes-a-mens-rights-activist Apparently most mens rights issues are feminism issues, funnily enough that same site openly talked about how they beat their ex bf’s too. Some of them are quite the hypocrite…I’ve tried to talk about male issues on feminist majority sites and facebook groups and copped the privilege + whataboutthemenz + butwomengetitworse dismissals and silencing insults. The egalitarian feminists need a separate site where men can actually talk about their issues, along with women and their issues without being blasted, minimized, insulted and silenced. It doesn’t look good when… Read more »
I don’t know that there is a main headquarters site, but my thought is there are egal/feminists everywhere and reading all blogs. Whether they comment is unknown. I mean, I read pandagon and others, but don’t always comment. I read lots of blogs and don’t comment.
egalfemhq sounds good lol. I guess there must be a mix of everyone, everywhere. I start to worry when the authors and editors themselves start talking of bad acts, and not from a place of learning or remorse but in a casual and joking manner which annoyed me to all hell n back over the jezebel link I posted a while ago.
Guess I’ll hold out until the egalitarian movement starts off big:P maybe they need everyonegetalongdamnit dot com
I love it! I want to create a site now that is called EgalFemHQ. (If I had the money, I’d go buy the domain right now! :P)
I shall be the muse of peace? haha.
Actually archy – that is quite a good idea!
It could be funny to have the site, and if someone gets disruptive it goes off line for 5 minutes. I wonder if it would act as a control mechanism, or would the trolls just keep playing? P^)
C’est La Vie
I agree with Julie. We may not have a site devoted specifically to ‘us’ (egalitarian feminists), but we do read on other sites, and sometimes comment. My own blog (in sore need of updates at the moment) expresses those ideas, and when I do comment on sites, I tend to make my views known. I think that more people SHOULD speak up when they hear/read stuff like that. This site is a great example where people can come from both sides and discuss the issues (I mean, we’re commenting about feminism on a piece that’s entire purpose is to explain… Read more »
I’d love to see it but don’t have the time or funding:P I’d comment there though. I’m commenting on the feminism as some see men’s rights covered under feminism and I’m wondering just how many there are. Seems they’re both feminists and mra’s all in one! I personally prefer to just lump them both as egalitarian without the need for secondary labels like mra or feminism, since egalitarians would be for all rights including racial rights, sexuality, disability, etc. But then again, I absolutely hate labels funnily enough, they can cause people to associate bias to them straight away. As… Read more »
I think you’ve hit the core: anti-sexism, comprising anti-misandry and anti-misogyny. You may have inspired a new project.
I’d write for that 😉
I think someone tries every now and then but for various reasons it’s really hard.
Well we went from an article about a woman who writes for mens rights to comments right off track about implementing feminism in foreign lands that the authors have no idea bout the culture there. In other words,a derailment away from the authors topic. Good job GWW,and thanks for sharing your background story,it makes your support all the more valuable. The only more I could add would be that men need the restoration of due legal process in the US and other Western countries. The women have due legal process,and free at that. So why are they always fighting for… Read more »
I would posit that perhaps *some* feminists don’t see themselves as taking away the rights of men. In that sense, they would be misguided in continuing to support policies and actions that elevate women at the expense of men. I think that there IS deliberate obfuscation on the part of some of the feminist movement because it’s easier to say, ‘Society owes me this because I’m a woman,’ than to say, ‘Not all men are to blame for the broken system, and I should work WITH them to fix the system.’ Many aren’t interested in equality, they’re interested in what… Read more »
TF says: “I would posit that perhaps *some* feminists don’t see themselves as taking away the rights of men. In that sense, they would be misguided in continuing to support policies and actions that elevate women at the expense of men.” I agree TF. I think the vast majority of women who are rank and file feminists are of good heart and only want what is best for all. The problem is those at the top who promulgate the view with intense propaganda that women are the worst off in almost every sphere of life. They also try to censure… Read more »
I think the best chance for men right now lies with F&F. They are doing good work. They are polite but determined. They are starting to get wealthy donors to the cause and lots of face-time with important politicians.”
Agreed. I have a great deal of respect for F&F
I just want to thank the GMP for featuring GWW and GWW for being able to look past the pain and anger really understand and empathize with men. Great comment thread, love Typhonblue too.
I just want to make a point of contention about how serious discussions about social problems get sidetracked/derailed with very personal and specific examples. This isn’t the victim olympics and everyone has their own experiences. Personal politics don’t make good social policy.
Listen to GIRLWRITESWHAT.
The MRM is about equality, true equality in it’s purest sense.
Not special rights and privilages based on one’s sexual organs.
“EQUAL protection under the law”
Not “more equal than” men, special protection for women.
The MRM are the only true feminists fighting for real equality.
Feminists fight for supremacy and disenfranchisment of the male.
MRM holds that men and women are EQUAL in value to society.
“The MRM are the only true feminists fighting for real equality.”??????????
Is that a Typo or something else?
Feminism claims to be about equality, but in practice it seems to be a very different beast, at least the upper tiers of it where all the lobbying and advocacy seems to stem from.
If feminism is only about equality, then MRAs are feminists, and feminists (at least in practice) are not.
F&F has a recent post up showing that they successfully got a soldier mom her custody back (while undertaking her legal defense) after dad used her deployment to try and change custody status (which happens to many soldier dads).
When has NOW ever advocated for the parental rights of a father, by footing the legal bills?
NOW paid the legal bills of Lorenna Bobbit for pity’s sake.
Slight correction, they provided valuable legal advice, information and resources in order to win an appeal that overturned a custody arrangement that denied the mother due to her deployment, etc and will return the custody battle to the jurisdiction it should have been in the first place. She still hasn’t yet won custody back, unless something has happened in the last day or so.
Your point still stands though, just clearing up the details as I understand them.
“The MRM are the only true feminists fighting for real equality.”
There is very little evidence that the MRM are fighting for anyone but themselves.
“There is very little evidence that the MRM are fighting for anyone but themselves”.
Who are the feminists fighting for besides that select small percentage of elitist women that are happy with their lives exclusively because of feminism? Are most women (and children) better off now, happier, more fulfilled, and secure in today’s America? There is a huge amount of evidence (need to open your eyes) that MRAs are fighting for their children, justice, and a decent society.
It may appear that the MRM is only fighting for themselves, but that is because at least in the US, it is men who face the bulk of systematic injustice. Look at The gendered rape definition that doesn’t count the majority of female perpetrated rapes. The lack of social services for men most of which is funded at least in part with government grants, which would make it illegal for them to discriminate in services, so why no shelters for men? Women make up 57$ of college undergraduates and 87% of nursing school students. Graduate from nursing school in higher… Read more »
I’m glad to see a reasonable woman recognizing the challenges that men face, but there is one thing mentioned here that is a favorite of feminists everywhere that deserves to be address. The myth that women are doing unpaid labor at home when they dont work. This is a less honest statement given a woman who does not contribute to family income is being paid by the fact that they receive free room and board and the costs of raising a child. If you want to determine what woman is paid that does not work, divide ALL household expenses by… Read more »
To clarify, are you taking issue with GWW’s comment that the domestic labour she performed as a stay-at-home mum has value (perhaps thinking the statement of having value implied that it should be paid?), or are you pointing out that more generally, it is a flawed argument that women claim they should be paid for the work they do as stay-at-home mums?
I certainly believe domestic labor has value. I am taking exception with labeling it unpaid. Any adult that has a house to live in, food to eat, clothes to wear, and all of their child rearing costs paid for by someone else and then turns around to claim that their contribution is unpaid is…..well, entitled.
That may be true, but it is not currency that can be saved and spent at the store, hotel, for gasoline etc. The benefit of paid employment is that the employee has access to cash flow, savings, health benefits and SS accrual. A house, unless owned by the person living it (which in this case may or may not be the point and in cases of joint ownership obviously would entail both parties agreeing on a sale) is not useful as liquid currency.
I dont disagree with some of what you say, but my point remains….it is false to argue that a stay at home mom’s contribution is unpaid.
“The benefit of paid employment is that the employee has access to cash flow, savings, health benefits and SS accrual.” Re: Disposable income. You are making three presumptions; 1: that the family income even provides for disposable income/savings. I know several families that live pay check to pay check, and have very little disposable income, even with two household salaries. 2: That it is the breadwinner that controls the finances. My brother works full time, yet he never see’s his pay check. It goes directly into a joint account which his wife controls and budgets. 3: That none of the… Read more »
Thanks for the clarification. I agree with Julie about the difference between being paid essentially in ‘goods and services’ rather than cash, and I also agree that having the ability to be a stay-at-home parent is ‘paid’ in that sense. What I’ve seen (partly from the discussions that have happened on this thread, and other places where the same topic is addressed) is that there is a disconnect somewhere, sometimes on the side of the partner who works outside the home (in an ‘I do all the work and you spend all my money’ sort of attitude), and sometimes with… Read more »
Hey TF, Not to nitpick but when you say this here: “The disconnect is that neither side is recognizing what they HAVE and what they’re being GIVEN, i.e. the working parent has childcare and child-rearing ‘services’ that do not cost anything extra that isn’t already being paid (house, food, etc.)” I agree with you that both sides are refusing to see things from the other’s perspectives. Where I have a disagreement, is: why would a stay at home parent expect to be reimbursed for their choice? Let’s be honest. The lesser wage earner (or non-wage earner) who takes care of… Read more »
I completely agree. And it puzzled me when I first started coming across persons who were making a big fuss about paid vs. unpaid labour with regard to child-rearing. I know my own mother, for example, would have loved to have been able to stay at home with my brothers and me. As things happened, both my parents worked full time through my entire childhood. I don’t agree with the idea that the work that stay-at-home parents put into rearing their children is ‘unpaid.’ I think that in some cases (many that I’ve seen), it’s under-appreciated, but it’s not without… Read more »
Family is like team where there is no “me”, but only “we.” Both partners are working for the welfare of the family. It is for the partners themselves to decide who will do what. In a family there are no paid or unpaid work, there is only family work and family money.
This presumes that the wage-earner (generally a patriarchal oppressing male in this area of discussion) keeps the money and gives his oppressed, suppressed, repressed and depressed wife a house to live in and crumbs to eat.
In fact, he puts the money in the bank and they have a joint account which, frequently, is run by the wife–more unpaid labor–to pay the bills and keep things current.
Stereotypes and myths run into reality from time to time and usually discredit the argument based on them.
“The disconnect is that neither side is recognizing what they HAVE and what they’re being GIVEN, i.e. the working parent has childcare and child-rearing ‘services’ that do not cost anything extra that isn’t already being paid (house, food, etc.), and the stay-at-home parent is being supported financially.” There is a cost…..and that’s the cost of the stay at home parent not working..ie whatever their income was. That is an additional cost that both spouses share. But when one side sees the other as only take and not giving (the parent who does ‘all the work’ vs. the parent who ‘earns… Read more »
Based on what GWW said about her experience as a stay-at-home mum, I would probably disagree on the monetary issue, but that’s more personal. I think that hard labour (‘unskilled’ as it is often called) is woefully underpaid compared to white-collar executive jobs. Yes, a job that pays $200k a year is probably stressful, but it’s probably no more stressful than doing house maintenance, or balancing a household budget, or wrangling 3 or 4 unruly children (my parents had 3 ambulatory children under the age of 5 at one point–I can’t imagine having to keep track of just one!). I… Read more »
Ack, that should read $150k, as $75; is clearly half of $150k.
I definitely think it’s difficult to put a dollar value on domestic work. For one, if you were to pay a fair market wage, you’d have to pay “on call” work (like I’m doing now, while largely letting the dog hair pile up and the kids amuse themselves) differently from “active work”. You’d also have to deduct not only all of the woman’s individual expenses from that (food, hair and body care, her share of the utilities, clothing, shoes, car and insurance, gas, all of that), but you’d have to deduct 50% of all the children’s care and needs (including… Read more »
You can argue domestic labor should be valued differently, but the reality is, we know quite well how much domestic labor is worth in the marketplace.
Domestic labor has value. My issue with some of the statements made by very angry commenters on MRM sites was that because she did not earn income, she should leave the marriage with nothing. No share of the assets, because he paid for all of them. While I do know many women who are…atrociously entitled stay-at-homers (partly because they can get away with it), when I was a SAHM, the only “work” my ex ever had to do at home was play with or spend time with the kids. He never even had to check the oil or cut the… Read more »
This originally appeared on Owning Your Shit, not Own Your Shit, and it appeared 8 months ago.
GoodMenProject is not good at making it clear that GirlWritesWhat does not work for them.
[Ed. note: Thank you for pointing out our error on the title of GWW’s blog. It is corrected now.]
Hi FunnyFaceKing,
In regards to this point of yours “GoodMenProject is not good at making it clear that GirlWritesWhat does not work for them.”
None of our contributors “works” for us. We are a community site. We have two employees, and 400 people who contribute posts. We run on average, 8-10 posts a day, and about 20% of our posts have appeared elsewhere. Posts that are originally written for us run elsewhere after they run here all the time. We do exactly this all the time. Can you explain why this would matter to you?
thanks,
Lisa (publisher)
Why we need male rights and awareness. ht tp://jezebel.com/294383/have-you-ever-beat-up-a-boyfriend-cause-uh-we-have?tag=gossipdomesticdisturbances Just one link of course, there are plenty to find though. “Another editor slapped a guy when “he told me he thought he had breast cancer.” (Okay, that one made us laugh really hard.)” An editor, at a large feminist site, doesn’t he/she realize that men actually do get breast cancer? Have a read of the comments, they’re real gems…they discuss their physical violence by females towards males with no remorse in plenty of those comments, quite a few feel it’s deserved! Google the video for “The Talk Catherine Kieu ”… Read more »
Yep that jezebel thread should be the gold standard for sexism.
If anyone can point me to an article or blog post in which MRAs (not fringe, or at least no more ‘fringe’ then Jezebel is) have applauded committing DV against their partners, then we can start talking about the misandry among feminists equalling the misogyny amongst MRAs.
Should we really keep on looking for the worst of human behaviour? 😉
You’re right, we shouldn’t.
Further that thread reflects the general misandry in society more then misandry specific to feminism.
I suppose it depends what you’re trying to prove.
Reading that article (and even more of the comments) made me a little sick. I have an ex who was the victim of DV at the hands of one of his first girlfriends (she broke his arm, she sexually assaulted him, and more). I learnt quickly that ANYTHING remotely resembling violence was enough to trigger him and shut him down. I grew up as ‘one of the boys,’ and I tend to be pretty physical with my friends when it comes to rough-housing–I’ve hit my exes before in the context of goofing off, never in the context of anger or… Read more »
Man, that Catherine Kieu thing literally made me throw up the first time I saw it. The best part? Sharon Osbourne wasn’t disciplined at all for the comment. she took a “leave of absence” from the show, and is (last I looked anyway) back hosting it. The dean of Princeton can get fired and essentially blacklisted for even suggesting that the reason more women aren’t in STEM fields is because maybe they choose not to, and Sharon Osbourne can laugh gleefully at the grievous bodily injury of a man she doesn’t even know, on national television and she is essentially… Read more »
I have a serious question for those of you in the MRM. I know that many of the feminist blogs I read often address issues that extend farther than North America. A couple posters that have responded to me have mentioned how things for women have changed significantly for the better. While this may be true in North America and Western European countries, the situation for girls and women in other countries are still dire. I don’t know how sexism is moving in the opposite direction ( as other poster informed me) when there are still countries where girls are… Read more »
Can I just add that I’m not very familiar with the MRM? And if I’ve made assumptions that I shouldn’t have, let me know -which I’m sure many of you will 🙂
Julia, I think it’s better to focus on a certain location as it has specific dynamics. What people do in say Australia, will be vastly different to Afghanistan and to talk about them all without splitting it up could muddy the waters and make it a huge jumbled mess. I don’t want to minimize the horrors that females face in those countries, but do feminists also study what males go through there? Is it really peachy keen for men? I’ve heard of child soldiers in some areas, heavy violence, men being killed and the women n children get taken so… Read more »
That’s the pattern I’ve seen. I felt I had to research Afghanistan specially because of all the feminist propaganda about it back in the late 1990s. From what I could see the feminists and the media constantly spread lies to manufacture a framing of the country as anti-woman. Looking back now I wonder if that was done specifically to prepare public opinion for the war. But eg. they constantly said the Taliban banned all girls schools whereas I knew the Taliban were building girls schools. The information contradicting the feminist-imperialist line was NOT hard to find, although it is harder… Read more »
David. Couple of points. The Taliban is blowing up girls’ schools. See the blog “rantburg”. It has a voice I think you will find offensive. However, I say this in advance, they do not make this stuff up. They are a compendium of current reports from various news sources around the world, much of it having to do with the GWOT. Don’t roll your eyes and say…. “rantburg, a bunch of racists you can’t trust”.. That’s old. Trying to discredit something inconvenient by pointing to a transmitting medium the Right Sort of People have been trained to laugh at Does… Read more »
It’s as if you don’t know anything about the topic but feel compelled to say something anyway.
If you doubt my word please feel free to write to the Swedish Committee for Afghanistan about it.
David. Feel free to read the news. Rantburg, as I say, has a number of sources, many in South Asia. Your local paper may not run something a wire service puts out, but another may. Sometimes they get to Rantburg.
“A couple posters that have responded to me have mentioned how things for women have changed significantly for the better. While this may be true in North America and Western European countries, the situation for girls and women in other countries are still dire.” The situation for men, women, boys and girls in other countries may be dire, but is feminism the answer? Do we really want to export feminism so that in 40 years time their men and women will be at each other’s throats, their families will be torn asunder and their societies will be entering into a… Read more »
In my home country, all the social and political reformers who worked for the upliftment of women and gender equality were men. Even though they were seriously opposed by traditional society (both men and women) in their efforts, they did not adopt confrontational attitude for achieving their goal, and used their moral authority and conciliatory approach to achieve their goal.
Feminism is a kiss of death for the society. Wherever feminism finds a stronghold, it leads to breakdown of social values, tradition and finally family leading to total collapse of society.
Even the moderates? I agree that extreme feminists are an issue. I also agree that they tend to have more power and influence. But you have to remember that feminism means different things to different people, many gender agalitarians refer to themselves as feminist. It doesn’t help to say that anyone using the “f” word is the same as the crazies.
Moderates are not feminists.
It’s an institutional problem. Saying there are good feminists is like saying there’s good people in the Catholic Church in a discussion on the pedophilia issue. It’s true but it doesn’t do anything to address the problem.
How True That Is! P^)
It’s a frequent defence mechanism and diversion! Try and change the topic and focus. Even play it out emotionally as a power game.
I wonder if “institutional problem” would be a better way of expressing it all without people getting too defensive or seeing it as a personal attack. I might use that analogy again if it is not offensive to Catholics!
Truth!
I’d go with “humanism.” By and large, feminism is advocacy for women; MRM is pretty much advocacy for men. Both can accomplish good things for their respective genders and the challenges they face, but it takes a more egalitarian effort to try to achieve human rights for everyone.
That’s not to say that either movement is worthless, by the way! The Arbor Day Foundation does nothing to address the racial imbalance in our justice system, but they’re still doing good work.
Humanism does not advocate for both women and men. Humaism views the male as the norm of humanity.
What gave you that idea Marie? Human can be linked to both man and woman. Is equalism or egalitarianism better? I am genuinely confused here.
this might give you a clue…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dddgkEg2XSA
Hasn’t humanism already been taken that humans are absolute truth rather than some divine being? I think giving it more definitions may cause some philosopher’s heads to spin
All I know is that I’m not going to appropriate the pain of people in other cultures in order to deny and minimize the pain in my own.
Good point. Save the whales, but not the males.
@ Julia I don’t know how sexism is moving in the opposite direction ( as other poster informed me) when there are still countries where girls are subjected to FGM. Isn’t this ethnocentric? To ignore the undeniable and dangerous sexism that still occurs outside of North America and Western European countries? Pharaonic circumcision AKA female genital mutilation is a complex issue – because primarily it is a cultural practice driven by women – it is performed by women on girls. I have seen many feminists and others in apoplexy over the matter and portraying it as all about men and… Read more »
“It’s a big world out there – and the issues are far bigger than some grasp!” Though I’d argue: “It’s a big world out there-and the issues are far bigger than (any of us can) grasp!” I am not all-knowing and if I were, I certainly wouldn’t be participating in this discussion.That’s why I put the question out there. Some of these microfinance programs target women because a definite gender inequality exists in those country. The women in these countries are almost always at a severe financial disadvantage in comparison to their male counterparts- in terms of assets and access… Read more »
“And I don’t see how it would be supported by females seeing as it’s unpleasant and painful for the female. And if it is I wonder why? It couldn’t possibly have anything to do with the gender inequalities in those cultures.”
Here are some links on the cultures that practice female genital cutting:
http://www.mbali.info/doc311.htm
http://www.arts.uregina.ca/dbfm_send/637
http://tierneylab.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/01/14/the-sexual-consequences-of-an-african-initation-rite/
Also look up ‘Ain’t I a woman too?: challenging myths of sexual dysfunction in circumcised women’ by a woman who willingly underwent Female Genital Cutting in the context of her culture.
Julie – I know of the IFAD report “Gender and rural microfinance: Reaching and empowering women. Guide for practitioners” There are two issues that leap out from just the title. Gender/Women and “Guide for practitioners”. They focus on two things – women and telling practitioners that Microfinace only applies to women. Don’t get me wrong, the underlying work to empower entrepreneurial activity through microfinanace is sound and is creating great changes, but as the initial projects back in the 1970’s were focused upon women and even focused upon innovation it has caused and still causes gender disparity and can actually… Read more »
Your guess — and that is all it was — about FGM not being supported and done by women was wrong because you’ve got the feminist way of looking at the world and it’s simply not true. Feminism says that men and women are at war with each other and then says men are evil brutes who like to oppress women, whereas women are the “good guys”. Reality isn’t like that. For example did you know most women in the USA opposed women’s vote? Right up until the end that was true. Some of the suffragettes said that women opposed… Read more »
I’m convinced that men(as a group) have always wanted an equal partner. It was the Church(notice it’s comprised entirely of celibate men) that decided to maintain the gender dichotomy we’re still labouring under.
Women tend to be more conservative about messing with how society works. Perhaps because of their role as educators and propagandists for societies roles. Equality for the sexes was screwing with how society works.
Sorry but Judaism is also a patriarchal religion. The ancient Greek and Roman philosophers, especially Aristotle, thought that woman is inferior to man. I hate to say it but men as a group have not always wanted an equal partner. Women had to fight very hard to get into universities, vote, practice birth control, own property, and so on.
So you’re somehow capable of divining the desires of most men from the writings of a few?
David, curious. What do you think the reason was for women to resist getting the vote? Not a question I have an answer to, but I’m curious about your opinion.
The reason given by the early 20th century I believe was that women were purer than men and dragging women into politics like that would threaten that purity. Men who opposed the vote for women said much the same. There were exceptions for women voting on issues felt to be within their “pure” domain — eg school boards. Before the introduction of the Australian ballot (ie secret ballot) in the late 1890s some politicians also argued that because a husband could check which way his wife voted, all that women’s suffrage would achieve would be to double the value of… Read more »
I remember reading a great deal of the opposition was that women feared being drafted if they had the right to vote.
There was a view of seeing the two connected (the ultimate civic right and ultimate civic responsibility).
Hm. Needed to be 21 to vote back then. They didn’t have a regular draft but eg in the Civil War they drafted from 18 — before a man could vote. Can’t imagine anyone saying women ought to fight back in those days.
Julia, It seems you’re predisposed to assume women have it worse in third world countries and to give feminist organizations that steer help to women the benefit of the doubt. However, this is demonstrably not the case when it comes to systemic male on male rape in Africa as a system of warfare, humiliation and torture for captured prisoners. There was either an article posted, or a comment posted on an article about rape that clearly showed that feminist-minded anti-rape help organizations were minimalizing and denying the size of the problem for men, because they did not want to split… Read more »
When you look at these other countries what you find is that for any abuses women suffer under there’s often worse things happening to men in those countries. But you never hear about anything bad happening to men because the media is institutionally discriminating against men. FGM is an example. Have you ever heard anything about the stuff men have to go through in their coming of age ceremonies? Very often it involves an awful lot of pain or danger. And then there’s the universal woman’s advantage over men which I just mentioned. Only women get their problems addressed so… Read more »
If FGM exists so does male circumcision.
and in the west even a pinprick of the hood of the clitoris is illegal, whereas a parent can merrily have the hood of the infant’s penis completely cut off.
i dont support either practice. and the hypocrisy regarding mgm in the west, hasnt gone unnoticed by those that practice fgm either
“i dont support either practice. and the hypocrisy regarding mgm in the west, hasnt gone unnoticed by those that practice fgm either”
Are you kidding? It’s their primary justification for continuing their practice and treating attempts to end it as invasive colonialism.
David says: “When you look at these other countries what you find is that for any abuses women suffer under there’s often worse things happening to men in those countries. But you never hear about anything bad happening to men because the media is institutionally discriminating against men.” Correct. Look at how the west still continues to blackout press stories about the Serbs killing as many men as they could find (combatant or not) of the muslims: ht tp://www.gendercide.org/case_bosnia.ht ml About the only stories you’ll find in the west about Bosnia is to say women are seizing power YEA! (but… Read more »
“Isn’t this ethnocentric? To ignore the undeniable and dangerous sexism that still occurs outside of North America and Western European countries?” And what is the option? To be colonialistic and to assume we have right to intervene and correct those societies? That was the whole theoretical basis of the Ne-Conservative movement and the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan. In fact the plight of Afghan women was one of the selling points for that invasion – cheap, manipulative trick. (And yes that is a false choice, yes they are our flesh and blood too, but it has to be addressed and… Read more »
“A couple posters that have responded to me have mentioned how things for women have changed significantly for the better. While this may be true in North America and Western European countries, the situation for girls and women in other countries are still dire.” Are you suggesting that because things are still dire in other coutries, things for men in western countries should remain dire? Are you suggesting that because some women get stoned in the middle east, that feminists in western nations should be able to demand and receieve even more funding and attention for abuse in the west,… Read more »
“I don’t know how sexism is moving in the opposite direction ( as other poster informed me) when there are still countries where girls are subjected to FGM.” Julia, I’m an MRA. There is a huge amount of anti-misandry (anti-male) laws, behavior, etc for us to deal with here full-time that we experience in our everyday lives within our own society and culture. While there are foreign countries where there is misogyny and FGM, that doesn’t mean that misandry doesn’t occur in the West and is the dominant gender theme. Feminists attempts include foreign issues and stats essentially seems to… Read more »
There are a couple things. The MRM is relatively new compared to feminism. People will stick to things that they know and there is little credible information coming out of these countries. Female sexual predation and female perpetrated domestic violence wasn’t even considered possible 10 or 15 years ago. People in western developed countries still spew the misinformation that men commit the overwhelming proportion of DV even though the CDC for years has published statistics to the contrary. People assumed there was no DV or female sexual abuse of males in the West. They were wrong. People assume there is… Read more »
Most MRAs I’ve talked to take the “clean up your own backyard” point-of-view when it comes to gender issues worldwide.
I happen to agree that any societal structural change must come from within.
Wow, I really agree with everything you’re saying, GWW. Thanks for this piece.
I still hold out hope of being able to call myself a feminist, and still do what you’re doing for men. It’s getting harder and harder to reconcile myself with what Internet feminists especially are up to right now and still keep my identity.
Sorry you’ve had such a tough road with your ex. You’re an amazing writer and I’m so glad that you’ve found a career you’re passionate about and is hopefully providing you a solid financial foundation. You’re an inspiration.
By the way, the Seattle Weekly piece is especially interesting in its demonstration that summary legal proceedings in which preponderance of the evidence is the standard and an inability to cross examine lead to clear injustice. Yet these are the key features of the US Department of Education Dear Colleague letter mandated to be used by all colleges and universities in the US to handle sexual harassment claims, and Washington State’s US Senator Patty Murray attempted to that those features written in the VAWA reauthorization at the end of 2011.
For comment posters who don’t think the way men are treated in family court is any big deal, or that bad treatment is unusual, I suggest you read the following piece from last week’s Seattle Weekly.
Lisa, maybe you could see about reposting that article here at GMP?
http://www.seattleweekly.com/2012-01-18/news/ripped-apart/
Thanks JustAMan. We did publish an excerpt from that article on our blog, here: https://goodmenproject.com/good-feed-blog/ripped-apart/
I will contact Seattle Weekly to see if we can run the whole article, good idea and thank you.
Can a moderator remove one of the two double posts I made just above?
For those interested in wage gap studies: ht tp://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,2015274,00.ht ml young professional women out-earning men ht tp://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/6622521/Harriet-Harmans-costly-Equality-Bill-wont-do-anything-for-women.ht ml UK wage gap seen to be due to women’s choices not discrimination. girlwriteswhat already linked to the consad report which is the largest most techinical report ever done. This was done for the dept of labor. ht tp://www.freakonomics.com/2008/05/01/robert-reich-answers-your-labor-questions/ former sec of labor under bill clinton says wage gap due to discrimination is at most 5% ht tp://www.abajournal.com/weekly/many_women_lawyers_with_kids_do_as_well_as_the_men_researcher_says This study by the American Bar on University of Michigan law school grads find it’s not gender, but an attorney’s willingness to put their job… Read more »
For those interested in, wage gap studies: ht tp://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,2015274,00.ht ml young professional women out-earning men ht tp://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/6622521/Harriet-Harmans-costly-Equality-Bill-wont-do-anything-for-women.ht ml UK wage gap seen to be due to women’s choices not discrimination. girlwriteswhat already linked to the consad report which is the largest most techinical report ever done. This was done for the dept of labor. ht tp://www.freakonomics.com/2008/05/01/robert-reich-answers-your-labor-questions/ former sec of labor under bill clinton says wage gap due to discrimination is at most 5% http://www.abajournal.com/weekly/many_women_lawyers_with_kids_do_as_well_as_the_men_researcher_says This study by the American Bar on University of Michigan law school grads find it’s not gender, but an attorney’s willingness to put their job first… Read more »
GWW — You are an amazing, powerful writer. Thank you for sharing your skill to speak out. I get really angry when I read about the crap you have taken. I get really angry when I read about the crap boys and men take just for being male. The existence of so much rank, putrid injustice in the world makes me want to scream to high heaven. But then I read your totally honest prose and clear analysis, and I can breathe again. It is enough for me that there is one woman willing to speak the truth. Thank you.… Read more »
Will do. Thanks for the links.
” I get really angry when I read about the crap boys and men take just for being male.”. I don’t deny that, but I hope you realize that girls and women take just as much crap for being female. I don’t want to get into who takes more crap for being what, but either way, these gender stereotypes and expectations are not healthy.
No, they are not healthy, Julia. But we have come a long way as a society in eliminating the worst of the crap women and girls have historically faced. We have gone in the opposite direction with boys and men, deeming males to have group privilege when 99% of the group have very little privilege, if not active bias against them, in many circumstances.
I am interested in Truth and Reconciliation. How would you propose we get there in the schools, in the prisons, in the family courts? At the most practical levels you can describe. I am serious.
Just because the worst of the crap women and girls have had to face is eliminated doesn’t mean that it’s okay to stop recognizing that they still face a lot of crap and that needs to be combated as well. The presence of the glass ceiling is an example of how that 1% of males is rewarded. However, you don’t think that an employer would be inclined to promote a male over a female employee with similar credentials? I do. If I were in a dark alley and a man approached me, I’d be more frightened than if a woman… Read more »
Julia says in response to Justa Man: “Just because the worst of the crap women and girls have had to face is eliminated doesn’t mean that it’s okay to stop recognizing that they still face a lot of crap A) and that needs to be combated as well. The presence of the glass ceiling is an example of how B) that 1% of males is rewarded. However, you don’t think that an employer would be inclined to promote a male over a female employee with similar credentials? I do. C) If I were in a dark alley and a man… Read more »
You’re right. Only your Truth matters. How silly of me to attempt dialogue.
Whoa. Hold on second. I had to attend to a couple of things, so I didn’t see your comments until twenty minutes ago. And that is that not what I’m saying about truth. I’m saying that it seems to be extremely difficult to each of us to see past our own truths and accept or even acknowledge other people’s truths. I didn’t diminish the value of your truth at all, I stated that your truth is, well, your truth, and my truth was mine. I understand if you took my lack of response as a slight or a refusal to… Read more »
“The glass ceiling is important to me because those at the top hold the most influence” Again this is the feminist sex war view of men and women fighting each other like two armies. Reality is not like that. Powerful men look after the interests of women more than men. Powerful women do the same but a little less. For example you can (people have) compared how male and female judges tend to sentence male vs female criminals. Both men and women treat men a lot worse than women but the gap is smaller for female judges. This is probably… Read more »
Julia Says: B) The glass ceiling is important to me because those at the top hold the most influence and they in turn influence the mainstream media and subsequently, the mainstream audience. ===================== Julia, you’re speaking as if just because men are predominantly the 1% elite, that they don’t spread a message, or encourage the help of women. Since we have a black president does that mean black men are doing fine? No. What matters is that women control 80% of spending choices and marketeers steer their ads in that direction. Women are also 60% of the vote. Obviously, politicians… Read more »
60% of those who vote sounds high. I would have guessed maybe 54%
http://www.cawp.rutgers.edu/press_room/news/documents/PressAdvisory_WomvsMen04Turnout_06-05.pdf
It was 53.5% in 2004 US presidential elections.
I stand corrected!
I thought I’d read all your stuff at your site but I must have been mistaken as that one is new to me. I don’t have much to do with MRA sites and haven’t seen what goes on so it was interesting in the first half to see your observations there. My impression is that the MRA sites were not nearly so suspicious of women 10-20 years ago, but I am not sure how long you’ve had an interest so i don’t know if you could comment on that. Not that I read them much back then either but it… Read more »
I think there’s a great deal of distrust now among the MRM wrt women in the movement, because many of the women who seemed on the surface to be advocating in men’s best interest were discovered to be advocating for their own. Traditional women who want to go back to being stay at home mothers. Women who bemoan the death of chivalry. Women who want men to stop being handicapped in the workplace by gender quotas for women, so that they can continue paying for dates, etc. And then…well, there are some voices out there who seem very sympathetic to… Read more »
Girlwriteswhat,
I have to add my congratulations to others who have posted on your excellent ability to look past the harm that individual men have caused you and see into men’s frame of reference who are also being harmed by women and societal expectations.
You are an extremely rare person. You do the MRM credit by being part of it.
I’m not sure what you mean by, “feminist and female participation seems to be conditional on men being “good” Hmm. As to the rest that sounds like a development from the MRAs being solidly conservative and identified with a “traditional family values” view of things towards actually being more about equal rights. So a positive thing maybe, but unfortunately leading to more distrust of women. The fact is a lot of men think just the same way of course (“traditional family values” that is). The 20 things I love about men… it wasn’t 20 politically correct things I love about… Read more »
Well, consider that probably 90% of “what’s good about men” in society’s eyes is their utility and tendency to sacrifice. A man is a “good” man when he’s putting more into society than he takes out, and when he’s putting others (the pregnant woman on the bus, his family, his country) before himself. Then you get a list of 20 things someone loves about men, and virtually every one of them embodies those qualities that used to guarantee a man a certain respect and status in society, or at least in his family, but which now, more often than not,… Read more »
I agree with you on the politics of the 20 things, but I think the honesty is more important. Well I am not sure we actually disagree here…. OK. On the other thing you meant that some feminists bailed on the site when Tom got a demerit from the Twitter feminists. Hmm. So you’re saying that feminist insistence on men completely obeying their party ideology is another example of disposability? Yes I would agree. I would put it that feminism is essentially a conservative movement in that it never challenged any societal norms but rather asked for a doubling down… Read more »
Hey David, The way I see it is that A) feminists transitioned the system from one in which individual men supported individual women to one where the class of men (via taxes) support individual women. They never really broke the idea of women needing support, only changed the nature of where that support came from. In other words big-sugar-daddy-government was every woman’s new husband. And he made the perfect husband. One, women could have other lovers and/or husbands. Two, he never judged, he always advocated for women even when they do wrong. Three, he would always support women (via welfare,… Read more »
Guess there wasn’t a B) lol
how about “(B) don’t talk about fight club”?
If you could provide me with a link or source for that information, I’d like to read it for myself. It’s not that I disagree with what you were saying, but those were the concerns I had after reading your article. I don’t think I was disrespectful or condescending in any way ( if I was, let me know), and though I consider myself a feminist, I’m open to what you had to say in response to be post. I wasn’t expecting to be met with a patronizing “sigh” to begin with, I was hoping for a thoughtful response (… Read more »
I really detest the fact that this website refreshes spontaneously, since I was almost finished my reply to you, and then it went out the window, gah! Anyway. I’m sorry about the sigh. Please understand how tiring it is battling the same misinformation over and over and over. I think I’ve probably responded to at least 150 assertions that women earn 68 or 71 or 76 cents for every dollar men make *for the same work*. It’s just not true. http://consad.com/index.php?page=an-analysis-of-reasons-for-the-disparity-in-wages-between-men-and-women There are lots of other examinations of the data that say pretty much the same thing as Consad. One… Read more »
@GirlWritesWhat The same thing happened to me! Thanks for the link and I’ll be sure to look up Warren Farrell. I’ll withhold judgment about the study until I get a chance to read it more thoroughly and look for hidden biases J. I’m not sure I agree with you about the expectation for men to put their kids first, I think it probably stems from this fear of not living up to the ideal “masculine” image or fear of being seen as a coward if they do leave. I know that my own mother had that expectation of herself to… Read more »
Part of the ideal masculine image of being brave derives from the expectation of putting the safety and wellbeing of others (especially women and children) before their own. Society and women have always needed men to be brave and willing to play through the pain. That’s why the socialization of boys among their peer groups often involves doing risky things and sucking it up when hurt. That doesn’t mean all men end up being brave in ways that benefit women, children or society. But this is largely the source of it. Can’t expect a weary, aching, injured man to fix… Read more »
Wow, well said.
Thank you GirlWritesWhat! (wow, it’s a tongue-twister! 😉 ) What I notice reading around, is lots of people who were hurt, and they hadn’t the strength and emotional maturity to heal and get over their wounds. So, now they look at the world through the lens of their hurt. And, of course, this leads to see everything polarized and in extremes. Their voice is the voice of pain and fear. This happens on BOTH sides, feminists and MRM alike, and it seem happening a lot (or, maybe, the more extremist voices are less but talk louder). You had the strength… Read more »