It may be comforting to believe that all rapists are bad people, but in truth, rape most often happens between friends, lovers, acquaintances and pals.
We see it all the time in the movies and on TV.
There’s a guy and a girl, and you know they’re gonna end up together. They have a super-hot dynamic that consists of witty banter, challenging each other, and doing things to really piss each other off. They may fight, but they also watch the other walk away with a combination of both longing and disgust.
Eventually, there’s the scene where the two of them hook up. They’re arguing, and it’s intense. There’s a lot of sexual tension. They watch each other, connecting through their eyes. They’re both fired up and have flushed cheeks. Maybe she bites her lip…
He steps forward, grabs her arms and tries to kiss her. She says, “No, stop. I can’t—”
He interrupts, “You can. You know you haven’t stopped thinking about this since we met.”
“I have,” she says. “It’s just…” She turns away from him. She’s torn.
He spins her back around, pushes her up against the wall. She turns her head, but she doesn’t pull away entirely. He takes her face in his hands, his body pressing into hers, turns her lips to his, and kisses her forcefully. She pushes him off for a moment, then she gives in to the passion, kissing him back and wrapping her arms around him, maybe her legs too.
At this point, they may move to the bedroom and have the best sex of their lives, fueled by conflict and heat and challenge. Or maybe she walks away, conflicted but breathless.
Either way, we know they’re going to end up together.
One thing we know for sure is that she’s not going to press charges against him for sexual assault.
But what actually was it that happened between them? Regardless of whether she walks away or consents to glorious sex, she said “no” and he didn’t stop. In fact, he pressed her against the wall and held her arms. Or maybe he did something more forceful, like in the scene below between James Bond and Pussy Galore.
It’s a scene so common I bet you can think of 5 or 10 movies and TV shows where it happens. Moonlighting, 9 and a Half Weeks, Boardwalk Empire, An Officer and a Gentleman, Goldfinger, Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, and almost every made-for-TV movie and soap opera.
And it has everything to do with Alyssa Royse’s article, Nice Guys Commit Rape, Too, where the author tells the story of a guy she knew well—a guy whom she believed was a nice guy—who was accused of raping a woman by penetrating her while she was asleep.
How are the two things related? Because the forceful kiss is an easily-relatable example of how our society actively teaches people about consent in a way that is incredibly dangerous.
She says “no”? Nothing to worry about. Just push her up against a wall. He says he doesn’t want to? It’s okay, just take off your top and press your breasts into him.
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My husband and I recently watched an early release of the film Save the Date. In this sexy, fun, edgy drama, Sarah (Lizzy Caplan) goes through a big break-up but quickly becomes interested in a new guy, Jonathan. When Jonathan (Mark Webber) goes to her house for a date, it’s clear the two are interested in one another. Sarah acts adorable, Jonathan acts adorable, they flirt, and she makes eyes at him. He smiles and says something like, “I really want to kiss you right now.”
Save the Date – IFC Pictures
She replies, “Then why don’t you?”
“Because you just went through an awful break-up”
“I want you to kiss me,” she says.
And he does. And it’s hot.
I turned to my husband and said, “I believe that may be the first time I’ve seen a model for sexy, healthy communication about consent in a film. I mean, maybe ever.”
Now, I’m paraphrasing the dialogue above, but he told her what he wanted, how he felt, and was considerate of her emotional state. She replied, communicated directly and clearly what she wanted, and he gave it to her. And it was sexy as hell.
But Save the Date is a rare exception among thousands of forceful TV and movie kisses. And it’s the direction we need to be moving in. As Jamie Utt explains in his piece Want The Best Sex of Your Life? Just Ask!, enthusiastic consent is hot because it helps us know what will turn our partners on, and makes very clear the fact that we are desired.
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Since the publication of Nice Guys Commit Rape, Too both here at GMP and at our content partner magazine, xoJane, Alyssa Royse has experienced a lot of fallout. She’s been called a rape apologist by people like Ally Fogg, and been told that she is making excuses for a rapist, by GMP’s own Matthew Salesses.
The truth is, Alyssa Royse is not apologizing for her friend having raped a woman. In fact, she puts blame squarely upon him many times, including saying, “what happened to her was wrong. My friend raped her.” But there is a misunderstanding in some of the response pieces and many of the comments, about the way in which responsibility can be divvied up here.
Alyssa’s guy friend is 100% responsible for the rape he committed. In saying that society is also partially responsible, we aren’t now making Alyssa’s guy friend less responsible. Responsibility is not a pie to be divided. Instead, these are overlapping responsibilities. The space where they meet is what we need to talk about.
Alyssa’s guy friend AND society are responsible. It’s not an either/or, it’s a both/and. Below are two wildly crude diagrams I just scribbled on my legal pad. I hope you’ll forgive the elementary school-quality of my artwork and handwriting.
On the left we have our either/or pie. In this model, when we give some responsibility to society, we are taking some responsibility away from the rapist. This is wrong. It is a false binary.
On the right, we see how the two different forces come together to create a rape. Alyssa’s guy friend entered that situation with problems, clearly. His ideas about sexuality were deeply flawed and his ability to empathize with another person was probably also lacking. Along comes society, with James Bond (the model of successful masculinity) and Pussy Galore and every other forceful kiss that leads to super-hot sex, and it overlaps with this guy and his issues, and what we’re left with is a grey area of consent that leads to a woman being raped.
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Matthew Salesses may be right. Alyssa’s guy friend may have never actually been a nice guy at all. He may have been a guy that seemed nice but was actually really bad. I don’t know him, neither does Matthew. But I’m more likely to believe Alyssa that he was generally a good dude. A good dude who had a very messed-up idea about consent. A good dude who raped a sleeping woman.
See, he can be both. No, seriously, he can.
Let me tell you another story. I had this guy friend in high school whom we’ll call Rob. Rob was a cool guy that everyone liked, not a jock but very popular. He came to me one afternoon, confused. At a party he’d hooked up with a girl named Maria, whom he’d gone out with a few times. They were making out heavily, rolling around, and engaged in heavy petting. He was cool with her putting her hand down his pants, but when she lifted up her skirt and pulled over her underwear, he got nervous and said, “No, I don’t want to do that.”
“Why didn’t you?” I asked, flabbergasted. He’d had sex with girls before.
“I didn’t want to have sex with her right then. I don’t know.”
“But why not?” 17 year-old me couldn’t quite grasp it. I mean, he wasn’t a virgin, wasn’t a born-again Christian who was waiting for marriage. And he liked Maria.
“I just didn’t. But she sat on top of me anyway and, like, shoved me inside her.”
“What did you do?” I asked.
“I pushed her off and said I didn’t want to.”
It was disturbing, but also confusing to me.
I don’t think Rob felt like he was raped, but it definitely seemed fucked up . And while he didn’t go out with her again, he wasn’t exactly mad at her. He just felt weird and sort of irritated about it. I’d guess that if you’d asked him if he’d been raped, he would’ve said, “no way.”
But if you ask me, she raped him. Did she know she was raping him? Almost certainly not. Did she set out to rape him? Definitely not. In fact, I asked her about it a few years later. She told me that she regretted it terribly and felt like a horrible person. She was 16 when it happened and had been fed a story her entire life about how all guys want is sex, and how guys will screw anything that walks. She also had a profound problem with insecurity and only later did she realize that her main sense of validation came from being sexually desired.
Maria simply couldn’t conceive of a guy saying “no” and meaning it. Not a guy like Rob, at least, a guy whom she knew had hooked up with, and even had sex with, a few girls from our school. She also thought it would make him like her more if she were sexually dominant, like Sharon Stone in Basic Instinct, whose no-panties leg-crossing scene was considered the sexiest thing ever in the 1990s—when in reality, it is disturbing and intrusive.
Is Maria a bad person? I don’t think so.
Did she do a bad thing? Absolutely. And in my opinion, it was rape.
♦◊♦
Does this story sit with you differently than the story of Alyssa’s guy friend and the girl whom he penetrated while she was asleep? Why or why not? Be honest with yourself here.
If it does, it’s probably because of a number of factors. First, in our society, a woman raping a man seems impossible. I mean, if he didn’t want to have sex, why would he have an erection?
Also, don’t guys always want sex?
The truth about male sexuality is that contrary to what we’re taught, guys do not always want sex. As much as Rob desired Maria and was enjoying their make-out session, he didn’t want to have sex that day. His desire may have given him an erection, but an erection does not equal consent.
We might also ask why he didn’t stop her before she forced penetration? Wasn’t he stronger than her? It doesn’t matter. His “no” should be enough to make her stop. But it wasn’t.
So what do we think of Maria? Should she have been tried in a court of law? Should she have gone to jail and been put on a sex offenders list?
God help me, I have no clue.
There are a number of factors that make Alyssa’s guy friend different from Maria: First, and foremost, he was an adult. And the situations were different.
But what else? Alyssa’s guy friend is a man and Maria was a young woman?
Maria got a clear “no” when she proposed sex, but did it anyway. Alyssa’s guy friend put his penis inside a sleeping woman with no warning at all.
Both seem equally bad, for different reasons.
But are either of these people “bad people”?
I don’t know what the rest of Maria’s life has been like. We’re in our mid-30s now, and I know she is married and has a family. Even at 19, she was hugely regretful of how she’d violated Rob, so I assume she never did that again. And while I know nothing about Alyssa’s guy friend, I believe Alyssa when she says that he was truly remorseful about committing rape. I looked in Maria’s eyes and saw her pain and remorse, and I do not think that Alyssa’s guy friend’s maleness makes him exempt from feeling the exact same way.
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So, does saying Alyssa’s guy friend is a good guy and a rapist excuse his rape? Certainly not. As we said before, I believe a person can be guilty of these types of rape and be good. Would I trust him alone in a room with me? Probably not. Would I set him up with my little sister? Absolutely not. But would I say he’s all-bad? No. Or at least I would say, “I don’t know.”
I understand some critics’ fear that saying Alyssa’s guy friend isn’t necessarily a bad guy might cause people who have raped, or will rape in the future, to think it’s okay. I think both Matthew Salesses and Ally Fogg believe that saying a rapist could be a nice guy might minimize the act of rape he committed, and I respect that. I understand it. What would happen if a person thought he could rape a woman and then walk away as a good guy? That would be a dangerous precedent to set.
But I also think it’s dangerous to continue framing rape as a “bad guy thing” for many reasons. First, when we say “only bad guys commit rape”, we’re disengaging any guy who thinks he’s a “good guy” from having a conversation about how he can help prevent rape. And we’re also disengaging all women from that conversation.
That’s why our understanding of who rapists sometimes are needs to change. First, we need to have active, engaged conversations with everyone—young people especially—about consent. We need men like Jamie Utt speaking and writing about sexy ways of communicating desire, boundaries, and limits. We need mainstream media examples of healthy, sexy conversations about consent—like in the film Save the Date—to be replicated everywhere, and we need the forceful, non-consensual kiss to no longer be an example of what’s hot. Let James Bond and Pussy Galore’s scary sex scene die with Sean Connery’s reign as 007.
And we need to be able to recognize the nuances of humanity. That a good person can do a very bad thing. That people can see the harm they’ve caused, feel great remorse, seek help and make real change to become a good person once again.
If we say “only bad guys commit rape” we’re actually creating a more dangerous society for both men and women. We need everyone to recognize the fine line we dance when we engage in sexual acts with another person. We need women to realize that guys have as much right to sexual autonomy as women. We need good guys and girls to realize that even if you’re not trying to hurt someone, without clear, direct and specific consent, you could still rape them.
Because the truth is, as Alyssa Royse said, the majority of rapes don’t happen in dark alleys where predatory men wait for a victim to pass. They happen between friends, between lovers, between partygoers and schoolmates. Rapes sometimes happen when someone thinks their partner really means “yes” when he or she says “no”. They happen when girls are taught that guys are sex-obsessed animals. They happen when people aren’t taught the communication skills that educators like Jamie Utt, Alyssa Royse, Cliff Pervocracy, Scarleteen, and others are trying to teach.
They happen, sometimes, when good people do bad things.
♦◊♦
For articles and resources on enthusiastic consent, please visit the pages below:
Want the Best Sex of Your Life? Just Ask! by Jamie Utt
Driver’s Ed for the Sexual Superhighway: Navigating Consent from Scarleteen
The “Yes, No, Maybe” Chart – A Tool for Talking About Consent by Jamie Utt
A Concise Kink Worksheet by Cliff Pervocracy (a consent tool for the Kink community and others)
Lead photo: Flickr/pheezy
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161 Comments on "Why It’s Dangerous to Say “Only Bad Guys Commit Rape”"
[…] comment is from Marcy on the post “Why It’s Dangerous To Say ’Only Bad Guys Commit Rape.’” There are many reasons to talk about rape, and consent, and the harm done. At The Good Men […]
The problem I have with the first part of this article is with how it sends a conflicting message to what other women are saying. Where does the ravishing end and the rape begin? Does the acknowledgement that the line has shifted, so that what is now called rape was once called exciting, demonstrate some kind of support for rape? Was this always rape, or is this a shift what women think of themselves, of men and of social interaction (did the woman in the white uniform consider herself sexually assaulted, or was it an exciting, if somewhat unexpected, kiss?)?
Between the two stories, the legal question is quite easy. The guy and the sleeping woman: rape. Penetrating someone while unconscious is rape (curiously, probably even if they consent to it beforehand, e.g. “I want to wake up with you inside me.” But that’s a different issue.). Having sex with someone who says, “No,” when they are not intoxicated to the point of being unable to resist, where you do not use force or the threat of force – not rape. Good article. Just wanted to clear up that point.
http://www.lexisnexis.com/lawschool/study/outlines/html/crim/crim25.htm
Having sex with someone who says, “No,” when they are not intoxicated to the point of being unable to resist, where you do not use force or the threat of force – not rape.
Wait – what? Was this poorly worded or did you mean to say that having nonviolent, non-forceful sex with a sober person who says “No” is not rape?
BTW, violation of PC 261 applies to “sexual intercourse” which is defined elsewhere in the code as penetration of the genitals by a penis, but men can be the victims of what is called unlawful sexual penetration by women, under PC 289. The language about consent, intoxication etc. in 289 largely mirrors 261 and penalties are similar.
My first comment is awaiting moderation. Sorry
Please be very aware that in most states this is not the case and intoxicated persons are not able to consent to sexual intercourse.
Also, having sex with a person who says “no” is rape. The end. It doesn’t matter if you use force, threats, or put them under duress. If they say no, and you continue to have sex with that person anyway, you are raping that person.
I don’t know where, you’re getting this, Tara, but what Sarah says about California law is true of most jurisdictions that have any legislation on the subject at all. I think there are few *if any* jurisdictions with a “one drink” rule, that any degree of intoxication whatsoever nullifies consent, which is a rather extremist view in my estimation. Ethically, one shouldn’t take advantage of somebody who is falling down drunk and out of control (much less passed out) no matter what the law is. But simply tipsy and disinhibited? Sorry, no harm, no foul.
I’m getting this from what we were taught in our SAPR classes, courtesy of the military. I happen to believe that there is a huge grey area, but someone who is just tipsy can also be led to make a decision that they normally wouldn’t make sober as well (pulling that information from personal experience with 5+ years as a bartender).
“someone who is just tipsy can also be led to make a decision that they normally wouldn’t make sober as well”
Of course they can, and often do. That does not make it rape. Doing something different from what you’d normally do does not equal lack of consent, or lack of ability to consent.
Are you kidding me with that right now? So, you’re saying that you would sleep with someone who was a little tipsy, and then the next day if they told you, “well, I wouldn’t have slept with you if I was completely sober” that you wouldn’t feel bad?
That’s skeezy. And gross.
[…] Joanna Schroeder wrote this piece for Good Men Project in response, as did Ally Fog. Both take different angles on the issues, and dig into the ideas beyond consent, even as there were disagreements between authors. […]
[…] my piece, “Why It’s Dangerous to Say Only Bad Guys Commit Rape“, I talk about how “No Means No” consent education doesn’t work. I talk […]
Arium, thanks for sharing your comment. I know it probably did take a lot of courage, especially considering the knowledge that people would probably attack you for it.
I think you’re so right that we don’t talk enough about the risks involved with using intoxicating substances. What is it about being drunk and high that makes people more likely to rape, when they wouldn’t have otherwise? We must explore that.
In Vino Veritas. Because people lose inhibitions, because when inhibitions are lost, people act without thought. Because if the core cultural messages are “I should have this” we take what we want. Because they can use “I was drunk/she/he was drunk” as an excuse. Those all come to mind. I guess we should also look at people who have been really drunk and really high and HAVEN’T raped, assaulted, stolen, driven.
So what kept those particular core inhibitions in place?
I’d say if we could identify that, we’d have more luck teaching it to more people.
I think it’s safe to say that Alyssa spent less time vetting her protagonist than she would have, say, shopping for the next Jane Roe.
HTML fail. Jane Roe
(A comment preview feature would be nice.)
Are we really still having a conversation about why he came to the thoroughly considered conclusions that his actions were okay while he was heavily intoxicated by both alcohol and other drugs?
No – the conversation has moved well beyond that. Please Do Try To Keep Up. P^)
I don’t know. The argument seems to have been reduced to “Alyssa believes her friend thought it was okay for him to have sex with a sleeping woman and Ally believes he knew it was wrong but did it anyway.”
From either side you have the assumption that he was able to consider his actions.
But I will Try To Keep Up, Thanks.
As I said – It has all moved on a long way from limited views and ideas of Good Vs Bad etc. But then again, It seems that the bigger conversation has been going on, even if some just keep on attempting to make it Binary and One Dimensional. Even bad people exist in Three Dimensions.
You seem to be missing my point, as it was neither about limited views or ideas of Good Vs Bad.
But after the condescending “Please Do Try To Keep Up” comment, I’m not particularly interested in continuing on, so we’ll just let it go.
Well Drew – there is that thing about Humour from different countries. Some assume good faith and practice it, others don’t. It’ all a matter of choice. Anglophone does not mean just the USA.
P^)
Ah. Well then, I’m the one guilty of missing a message.
Mea Culpa, sir.
Why it’s dangerous to say only bad girls abuse their kids……only bad girls commit murder…..etc, etc. This topic is getting really stale really quickly. The fact is rates of sexual violence, domestic violence, random violence, and violence of all types have never been lower in the states. Incarceration rates for nonviolent crimes in the states, on the other hand, especially those for men of color, have never been higher. How about a piece or three on that?
I do agree that the “Bad” label is both under used – used excessively. It’s also used as bad shorthand and it’s just assumed that people understand that and don’t need it spelling out. People don’t want talk prison or prisoners, which is odd given that this whole site is built on those experiences.
I keep wondering if some have got such large issues, that if they believe they are being denied control of a man they have never met, that they will seek to control Alyssa? If they can’t have him as a bad man, they will still have to get blood so Alyssa had to be bad. It’s bizzare conduct and worst still the people displaying it can’t see it – or themselves.
Responses still in mod land?
Lynn, thank you for telling your story. It has been haunting me all morning. I am sorry the police would not help you because even if you agreed to sex, you did not consent to the vicious mauling you endured. As an attorney, I think he could have been charged with aggravated battery at the very least.
@ Lynn Beisner – Brava – thank you Lynn for doing the same as Alyssa and being brave and working to open up issues so they can be seen and addressed – not closing everything down into a Micro View and enforced control over people in a micro lens around one word!
MediaHound,
“If you are going to tell anyone that they don’t know their own mind” – I’m not, I’m merely pointing out that there is a reasonable counter to Alyssa’s assertion that knowing this man gives her a special insight. She said:
“That said, I do have the added benefit of having been there, and knowing this person very well. So I think my opinion might have a bit more information in it’s formation on this particular issue.”
Being in this particular position cuts both ways. Your agreeing with her doesn’t change that. And disagreeing with someone isn’t “being controlling”.
Samuel – It’s the way language gets used that is the controlling issue. But then again, you are careful in what you type, so you will know that.
Trying to understand why people rape in order to prevent more rapes is NOT rape apology any more than trying to understand cancer in order to prevent more cancer is cancer apology.
Perhaps this would be just semantic wordplay, but another word for “asleep” is “unconscious.” Is penetrating someone who’s “sleeping” really at all different from penetrating someone who is “passed out” or “unconscious” or “in a coma”?
Well raping someone who is only asleep is certainly more risky for the rapist.
Well Tom – it’s interesting what happens when it’s people talking about you, and if you are good. I do prefer to hear people speaking for themselves. I like stories that come from real people about their lives, their experiences and their views of events they live through – and I’m not that keen on what turns into lectures, wild speculation fests and worst of all Gossip.
I’d love to see more of the first and a reduction in the second. The first opens up dialogue, the second only promotes it’s own dogma.
That is why I’m horrified by the assumption that one person can tell another’s story — without having met that person.
Alyssa’s friend has a story that goes with this rape. It’s complicated, it’s ugly, it’s not good vs evil. And we’re not equipped for that type of story. We want to believe that he *has to be a bad man* to have done that. Because… Well, not only is it what we’re used to being told, but it means that *we* will never do anything bad. Because we’re good, right?
Wrong.
I think I need to transition into becoming more of a gap-filler, if only so as to avoid serving on a jury.
If you draw a Venn diagram of relevance between Alyssa’s rapist friend and society’s mixed signals, there would be two circles not touching and very far away from each other… on separate pieces of paper even.
A.Y. – because society doesn’t influence people’s choices?
Ridiculous.
I find glib two dimensional analyses highly informative – as they just illustrate over and over again why they are not the way to model, look at, discuss or understand complex issues. As one of me professors said Some use Occam’s Razor and achieve nothing but insisting they can reduce everything to the point of cutting their own intellectual throats.
Love this.
Because Girls Can Do it Too? Wild Guess from just the title trope!
I think your armed robbery example is PERFECT and I was trying to think of how to explain that when I was writing this, but you’ve done it perfectly.
Also, you gotta love my graphs.
P.S. Another way to put it: there’s a difference between explaining and excusing.
Agreed – and there is also a big difference between running away and exploring. Some seem to want to represent Alyssa and others are running away from reality and yet she’s saying let’s explore reality – there may be more to find.
Some folks just can’t accept wide open spaces, or that they may even exist. P^)
“He smiles and says something like, “I really want to kiss you right now.””
That’s the kind of thing a Nice Guy ™ would say.
What does that even mean? What are you getting at?
Joanna, are you asking me or Emulator to clarify?
Emulator.