Originally appeared at Ten Things I’ve Learned
Note: in the USA right now, exceptionally Conservative Republicans are working overtime to make it impossible for a woman to have an abortion (at least without feeling super-guilty about it). So here’s my experience going through the abortion process. I don’t know what it’s called…men can’t “have” abortions, right?
- Your politics mean nothing until they are tested.
- If you are pro-choice and someday want children, when a real possibility exists to have a child, no matter how unprepared you are or how ill-advised a decision it is, how do you not feel conflicted?
- Use protection. Seriously. No matter what he says, and no matter what she says.
- Men are largely behind the pro-life (anti-choice) movement; sometimes I think it’s because too many men don’t have access to knowledge or support around abortion issues. So we get dumb and angry. If only George W. had a shoulder to cry on, you know?
- There’s no good time for an abortion. Also, it sucks. Why do people think that women use it as birth control? Who wants to throw up for days, book an appointment for a clinic, possibly get yelled at and guilt-tripped by protesters, get doused with pain killers, have a procedure performed on your vagina (for men: think about your penis in this scenario. Right??), go home, feel shitty, be mad at your boyfriend, and then not have sex for weeks? Nobody. That’s who.
- Sure, there are over-arching gender politics in every relationship, but ultimately it comes down to two people trying to figure something out. A decision like this is tough for both parties…hopefully you both try to get through it the best way you know how without saying or doing anything too stupid or hurtful.
- Abortion is definitely worse for a woman than for a man. I get it. But there is emotional resonance for any half-decent man that gives a shit (and there are more of us than you might think).
- I could have an 8 year-old kid right now. If I did, they would be named Ghenghis. Boy or girl.
- We think we make decisions rationally, but we don’t.
- Someday, I think I could make a pretty great dad. But for the record, one of the worst things you can say to somebody is that they’d make a terrible parent.
Postscript: Going for an abortion was, without a doubt, the right decision. If she had made a different choice, I could be trying to raise a child with the worst, meanest, and craziest woman I have ever had the privilege of being in a relationship with, with not enough money and a lot of resentment. I still want kids (I think?), but I really believe it is irresponsible to bring a child into a fucked up situation just because you have the primal physical ability to. We are very lucky to live in a society where we have established the freedom to choose whether or not we have children, and on what terms. I don’t want to throw my life away, but more importantly, I don’t want to throw away the life of some poor kid that never had a choice to be born. I don’t mean to be sanctimonious….I’m the last person who is in a position to judge anybody. It’s just that life isn’t black and white, and you can’t have moral absolutes about stuff as messy as sex and pregnancy.
Image of Parenting, adoption and abortion courtesy of Shutterstock.
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html
1.5% of abortions occur after 20 weeks, which is on the extreme edge of viability.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,880,00.html
http://www.salon.com/2011/12/21/why_women_have_second_trimester_abortions/
91% of abortions occur in the first trimester (88% in first 12 weeks.) Many of those in the 2nd semester are women who didn’t have proper access to abortion to get it done in the first trimester…
Debating late-term abortions is fine, but let’s not forget that we’re talking about a rather small subset of overall abortions. Even if the cutoff is viability, almost all abortions meet that criteria.
If we had proper funding for family planning, safe-sex education, and, yes, abortions, the share of late-term abortions would be even less.
“If we had proper funding for family planning, safe-sex education, and, yes, abortions, the share of late-term abortions would be even less.” Exactly. Aborton should be legal and late term abortions should be legally regulated and monitored. In my home country, abortion rates are very low but we have excellent sex educaton and excellent access to contraception for both, men and women; covered by health insurance. And so are abortions. And to everyone who is pro-life, I’d suggest to just not have an abortion if you get pregnant but don’t enforce your personal beliefs on others. As a women I… Read more »
“Pro-life is still a choice though. Men don’t have the luxury of choosing between abortion and pro-life stances, there choice is made for them.” Sorry Archy, there was no more room to reply above. I just want to address the above response. This is what I am trying to convey. For many who are Pro-life. IT IS NOT A CHOICE. No matter how many times you say it is, this is simply not the case. This is my conviction, deep down to the core of my being. As far as I am concerned, there is no other choice. I am… Read more »
What he means is that society has created the possibility for a choice. You are still utilizing your human agency in believing that adoption is not a personal choice for you.
A lot of people on all sides of the abortion debate have a hard time recognizing the difference between personally seeing abortion as a non-choice, and society providing that choice.
What if a man feels precisely that way?
Makes a macimum of 0% difference, doesnt it?
So, this whole thing must be fair and right for both parties. It can’t be almost ALL one way, as it is now. Men should be given some level of human dignity and consideration, just as women are.
Again, adoption is the best option if two parents are needed. And it’s widely available.
That is true. i shared in an above reply, the story of a friend of mine, a pro-choice man, who wanted to keep an unplanned baby, releasing his partner of all obligation, and she still aborted. I really feel for him. But I don’t know how to “solve” the equation. A group of people will always find objection with any presented solution. That’s problem when something is gray, and not black or white.
“I just simply believe, with every fiber of my being, that any abortion beyond the first few weeks/1st trimester, is wrong. So, for me, there is no abortion option. It does not exist.”
Do you mean for you abortion is an option in the first few weeks, or abortion for you is flat out refused but you allow it for others for the first few weeks/1st trimester?
And HeatherN summed it up nicely what I was thinking.
It sounds like some people here need a serious reality check. Here is the “waiver” you sign when you willingly engage in HETEROSEXUAL INTERCOURSE: 1. I accept that, through no choice of my own, I was born with one of two kinds of mammalian bodies: either the kind that grows babies, or the kind that doesn’t grow babies but gets the party started. 2. I recognize that I had no choice in the matter of which kind of body I got. Neither did anyone else. 3. Nonetheless, this body is now my responsibility to govern as I see fit. Everything… Read more »
Other than the terminology (Baby-starter? Heh) I agree with your assessment of the current ‘contract’ that people are held to. Now the next step is, how do we improve from here? How do we change this contract to better suit people’s needs? I personally like the ‘financial abortion’ idea wherein a father can relinquish all rights and responsibilities to a fetus within a timeframe comparable to abortion. That would at least improve 7 and 8 for more gender parity. I also think 7 could be improved with more technology going towards replicating the conditions inside of the womb so… Read more »
The point I’m trying to make is that this is the only contract that can ever exist, and we need to accept that. It’s not great, and it’s not equal, but it cannot be “improved.” Men and women have biological limitations that we did not choose, and it is up to each of us to be responsible for our own bodies and actions. Unless “technology” can make it so that a man can carry a child to term himself and experience the wonder that is childbirth, we will never have equality in this respect. The “financial abortion” idea is really… Read more »
Then why force the man to provide financial assistance to the child, it’s completely HER choice whether to continue the pregnancy, regardless of his opinion she can choose an action which gives him 18 years of child support + father status, or no child at all. You assign his responsibility at conception but her’s extends further simply because it’s her body being used, yet she is afforded an additional privilege of being able to opt out of parenthood regardless of his wishes. I’m sorry but there is more at stake than her body, and whilst that is a huge risk… Read more »
Keep in mind, Archy, that I’m for some sort of opt-out options…in conjunction with more social support for single parents. I’m just trying to explain why I think it’s so hard for some women to think of opting out of financial responsibilities as similar to abortion. Alright so, for better or worse (I think worse, really), society expects mothers to be the primary caregivers. If a woman unexpectedly becomes pregnant, I am willing to bet that she assumes that her options are thus: abortion, adoption, or raising the child. The possibility that the biological father would want to be the… Read more »
There is very little social stigma for women associated with adoption. There is compassion. People consider women who have their children adopted to be selfless/self-sacrificing, even heroic. By contrast, men are treated with scorn unless they embrace her child, no matter howill equipped and unprepared he was/is to be a father. There is no stigma worse than being considered a “dead-beat dad”, with the possible exception of being a child molestor or (male) rapist (of a female). Even being a murderer is not always worse. For example, people often have more compassion for men and especially women who commit crimes… Read more »
I liked the idea of communities raising a child, a few adults raising the kids together. Always wondered why people didn’t do that more instead of single family homes. Remove the major financial burden part of raising children and you’ll have far more willing fathers, but at the moment a child is quite expensive and for me personally would mean I’d be going hungry to support it, my quality of life would diminish bigtime and seriously harm my own road to recovery. I’m kinda glad I’m not in a relationship atm, I couldn’t afford a child and that fear would… Read more »
I agree with this completely.
Even a woman who does not want to become a parent but is against abortion still has the choice of adoption. Millions of couples are waiting to adopt an infant.
Yes, for sure. Adoption is a wonderful option. I feel like many Conservatives want to have their cake and eat it too. My views are mostly Liberal, but not in regard to abortion. If you want to end 2nd and 3rd trimester abortion, and prevent women from using it as birth control, then you cannot take away sex ed, condoms at schools, the morning after pill, and you cannot pitch a fit about insurance covered birth control. Sex is not taboo, and that attitude will create more unwanted pregnancies. Prevention and education play a large role in reducing the “need”… Read more »
“The point I’m trying to make is that this is the only contract that can ever exist, and we need to accept that. It’s not great, and it’s not equal, but it cannot be “improved.”” I disagree. In fact, the ‘contract’ has been constantly evolving. The last one we had said: 7. If I have the kind of body that grows babies, and I get pregnant, I cannot make anyone want to help me take care of it. I can possibly get a court to tell the baby-starter to pay me some money, but that’s no guarantee that he will… Read more »
Lots of interesting comments in this post. I guess I’ll just throw in my two cents, and spend it how you will… I am pro-life for myself. If I get a woman pregnant, I feel personally responsible for that since I obviously failed to properly use protection. Moreover, I feel that while scientifically a fetus IS NOT A HUMAN BEING, I nonetheless hold that potential to be nearly equal to a human life. If a man were to kill my girlfriend and our (hypothetical) unborn child, I would feel he had murdered two people, assuming we intended to bring that… Read more »
#9 is very correct. We love to believe we can hit the game winning shot but most of us miss.
I have a hard time believing number 7. Certainly in your situation you can say it, but I think it is more complicated than ‘if woman=cares more’.
If you are talking about it being physically worse, then I agree, but it seems like your talking about the emotional aspect in which I don’t agree that getting rid of an opportunity to raise a child is necessarily harder on the woman.
Hi Archer…I appreciate your thoughts on this. It was definitely hard on me….can’t say I know how it would feel to be in a woman in that situation.
It does suck. Especially if you are a pro-choice woman who, long before the situation ever arose in her own life, said she was pro-choice but would not get an abortion herself. So on point #1 you’re totally correct. I felt all sorts of sick around it. Logical Brain said it was the right choice; Emotional Brain was tangled up in intense guilt (pregnancy happened because I got off-schedule on my birth control and we didn’t use a backup method), doubt, fear, anxiety, and grief. I still get triggered today, almost four years after the fact. I remember once mentioning… Read more »
Now imagine this. What if your boyfriend at the time (husband now) had 100% complete control over your right to be a parent or not. You discussed it, but in the end YOU made that decision, not him, he had no ‘real’ say in the matter. You say that it might be harder on you, it might now, but imagine if the decision was completely out of your hands. Can you imagine being forced to carry a baby to term or forced to have an abortion, and I am not talking about the physical pain but the emotional pain. I… Read more »
No, I can’t imagine being forced to carry a baby to term – not by my government, or by my romantic partner. Which is why I oppose any measures by the government to try to force women to carry to term. Whether a woman makes a choice on her own or a couple makes a choice together, that choice should not be made for anyone by a third party. I think it’s tough, though, to legislate men’s rights into this. Eric M. above suggests something about written notice and consent, and while that’s all hunky-dory in an ideal world where… Read more »
Looking at it again, it seems Eric M’s proposed solution has less to do with a man preventing a woman from having an abortion he doesn’t agree with, and more to do with a man not becoming a parent against his will and held liable for child support for a child the woman chose to keep, so my hypothetical scenarios are not all relevant to that. But it’s still worth considering the flip side of such documentation – if Man receives in the mail written notice that a sexual partner has become pregnant, and indicates that he would be willing… Read more »
I believe it’s the second bit, that he has the option to either sign onto child support and some level of parental connection or nullifying any parental right “a financial abortion” as it’s been called.
I think you’re probably right. Child support is honestly an issue that has never affected my personal life and thus I’ve had no impetus to learn much about the legal issues & rights involved with it. I leave the arguing on that topic up to those who are better informed and/or have a personal investment in the issue.
I still would like some male perspective on the question of whether men should have “equal rights” (i.e., the right to choose) in abortion matters, from a legal standpoint.
Sorry I misunderstood the topic and derailed conversation a bit. Not my intention.
I am a male and I 100% support the notion of parental abortion/financial abortion for men and women. That means no child support, and no say or responsibility for the child, basically they’re just another human. A man can abort his responsibility after being notified, maybe have a time period and half of the cost of an actual abortion to be paid as well so the woman isn’t shouldered with the full cost should she choose it but if she doesn’t choose it then no money paid. This would have to be extended to count for cases where he is… Read more »
Could a woman have the child and then turn it over to the father (if he wanted it) and give up all rights to custody and visitation but not be liable for child support, ever? What I’m asking is, would this work both ways?
Sounds fine to me. And if he didn’t want it, adoption would be the norm I guess. As long as it isn’t forced on her to have the child just for his decision since the risk of pregnancy is still there.
Not sure if this can be done currently, I think both parents would have to sign the rights to one but I don’t think you can sign away your financial responsibilities?
Interesting thoughts. I support the idea behind it all, the idea that men should be able to absolve themselves from responsibility for a child they don’t want the same way women can through abortion. However, I see many practical obstacles to this. Not reasons it should be abandoned, mind you, just considerations: *Taxpayer cost of enforcement, documentation and legal proceedings (granted that child support enforcement/documentation/court is already an expense to the taxpayers) *Realistic probability of participation in absence of tangible enforcement *Rare but significant cases where notifying the father is not possible and thus he can’t get the option to… Read more »
I apologize if my statement came across as if I was discounting how abortions affect women. I realize that abortion can be a very traumatic event in both men and women’s lives. It certainly sounds like it was in yours. I don’t believe we can measure the emotional impact (in a relevant way) which is why I don’t like broad statements like how one gender is impacted more than another. To me, it seems like a variation on the ‘mothers love their children more because they came out of them’ argument that I personally don’t agree with. I agree… Read more »
Thanks, and I didn’t take offense at your comment, just wanted to provide the female perspective. If anything I might say that I probably face more triggers than my husband does – no one would ask him about pregnancy if he said he had heartburn, and he doesn’t have to include the procedure in his medical records – so from that perspective, the emotional consequences are longer-lasting for me than for him. The emotional impact is more intimate for me because it affected my own body, but that doesn’t mean it’s more significant. Again, it’s been a long time since… Read more »
“The female perspective.”
I’m going to be nitpicky, here, but really I think you mean to say “a female perspective.” There is no single female perspective when it comes to anything…let alone something as complicated as the issues surrounding abortion.
Nitpicky indeed – that is what I meant.
Josh, I am going to assume that you are a man by your name (if I am wrong please correct me), but I too live in Canada, and here, YOU (assuming you are a man) have ZERO, NONE, NADA rights to control if and when you have a child and under what terms. You do realize that if you were raped, drugged , or if a woman was able to obtain your sperm without your permission or consent you are going to have a child no matter what you say. And to boot, you could be saddled with 25 years… Read more »
I am a man, yes. I can’t say I’m totally familiar with the child support laws. I will say, however, that I don’t understand how the right for women to choose whether or not to have an abortion takes away my right to my reproductive destiny. Here’s why…. Let’s suppose that I get someone pregnant. Now, if a woman does not have the right to have an abortion, then she has to carry the pregnancy to term (assuming she doesn’t get an illegal abortion). Then, you are on the hook for CS anyway. If she does have the right to… Read more »
She can choose to become a parent or not, regardless of your opinion. But, what if disagree? What rights do you have?
Correct. None. That’s the point.
Hi Eric,
So what would be an alternate solution?
The man could be given up to 4 weeks in the first trimester after being formally informed, in writing, of the pregnancy whether he wishes to become a parent or not. If not, he could sign a standard document that strips him in perpetuity of his rights and obligations should she choose to not have an abortion. If he fails to respond, it would be assumed that he has accepted the opportunity to become a parent, should she not choose to abort, along with its privileges and obligations. This gives both men and women post-conception reproductive rights. Remember, as with… Read more »
I think this is a less than stellar idea. We’d all love to pretend that this would work, and that all men would sign this waiver of parental rights having considered all possible angles of parenthood, but the fact is, many will sign because of financial reasons only, which leaves the woman to fend for herself. Yes there are deadbeat moms, but there are more deadbeat dads, and that’s just statistical fact. I understand that sometimes men and women will not agree on what is best in the event of an unplanned pregnancy, but if the woman chooses to keep… Read more »
Equality is a principle. We can always find excuses to discriminate.
Yes, damned be to the man that dares to want to opt out of parenthood. With up to 1/4 pregnancies n the US resulting in abortion, one huge female privilege is the ability to opt out of parenthood regardless of their partners decision. Yet you don’t want to share the privilege of opting out of parenthood because of deadbeat fathers that don’t pay? Well that responsibility would then be on the mother who can choose to abort, or raise the child alone. Woe is the woman now crippled by the cost of raising the child alone but so quick to… Read more »
that’s the thing, if you are pro-choice it has nothing to do with your desires, it has to do with your beliefs. I chose to keep my son, not because I felt a desire to be a mom, regardless of his dad’s opinion/choices, but because I knew I *could* be a good mom and viewed the life inside of me as a beautiful thing, regardless of how it got there. there is also this third option, adoption. my dad was adopted, as were all of his siblings, one of my best friends gave her son up for adoption, and i… Read more »
just as challenging “as” a man, not than. typo.
Eric, please see my response below to John Schtoll to see why a written consent or non-consent from the father doesn’t really solve anything.
@Eric Gaby, let’s assume the law you propose exists. Now let’s say the woman has the child, but can’t support herself for whatever reason, good or bad (she’s a minor, she has a drug problem, she’s disabled, she’s mentally ill, she dies, etc.) so the state picks up the tab, through welfare, food stamps, medicaid, foster care, or whatever. Who shoul bear the cost, the unwilling father or the unwilling taxpayers?
He doesn’t have a child. There is no child when he opts out. Here’s how it works. When he opted out there was no “child.” There never has to be a child unless SHE and she alone chose to have a child. Her body, her choice, and her responsibility if she decides she wants a child, knowing that she will be a single parent. However, if she doesn’t want to be a single parent, she can still choose abortion. If she doesn’t want to be a single parent, She can still choose adoption. If she’s a minor, she has parents… Read more »
There’s a child and he’s 50% responsible for its creation. Why should I, the innocent taxpayer, support the child in this hypothetical? I acknowledge it’s unfair to men to be unwilling fathers (although, he was a willing participant in sex, presumably, in most cases anyway). How is that fair to me, the taxpayer? If no one else is around, someone has to support the child, we aren’t going to let it die on the street, are we?
The responsibility then lies solely on her, she has the choice to stop this hypothetical child from existing and refuses to take it so as a taxpayer, take it up with her. He can’t just force-abort the child, the child is inside her and thus the responsibility in this situation is 100% on her. They were both willing participants presumably however the only one that can end the existence is the female. When the option of abortion exists, especially with the rate it is used these days, it’s the female that shoulders the responsibility of the child being born as… Read more »
I’m kind of playing devil’s advocate here to think about all the social consequences of the “financial abortion” idea. For example if the woman is a victim of rape or incest, but doesn’t want an abortion for religious reasons, can the father/perpetrator opt out? What if the father changes his mind and gets involved in the mother’s/child’s life again after she has the baby, does that nullify his previous disclaimer of responsibility? What if the man never heard about the possibility of “financial abortion” until it was too late, because he was young, uneducated or didn’t speak English or whatever?… Read more »
“I’m kind of playing devil’s advocate here to think about all the social consequences of the “financial abortion” idea. For example if the woman is a victim of rape or incest, but doesn’t want an abortion for religious reasons, can the father/perpetrator opt out?” I’d say rapist pays, when you force yourself on someone else and pregnancy occurs then the burden should be on the rapist. Maybe additional child support to cover the mothers part? I’m happy for welfare to help out in such cases due to the extreme circumstances. “What if the father changes his mind and gets involved… Read more »
“she has the choice to stop this hypothetical child from existing” this is only true for women who are pro-choice. for those who are pro-life, abortion is not a viable option. that is why i do not believe “opting out” is a broad spectrum answer. you may not like or agree with the pro-life stance, but it exists and deserves to be respected. i understand i am in the minority here, and i expected that. being a pro-life liberal makes for an interesting existence.
“For example if the woman is a victim of rape or incest, but doesn’t want an abortion for religious reasons, can the father/perpetrator opt out?” In that case, no. By contrast, male victims of rape and incest are required to become a parent and write a check to their rapist for 18-24 years, as demanded by the government. “What if the father changes his mind and gets involved in the mother’s/child’s life again after she has the baby, does that nullify his previous disclaimer of responsibility?” He can’t. Legally. He has signed his privilege to be involved away. “What if… Read more »
Pro-life is still a choice though. Men don’t have the luxury of choosing between abortion and pro-life stances, there choice is made for them.
It takes away your right to reproductive destiny because under canadian law you have NO right to be a parent or not (biological of course I am talking about), if your sperm is used no matter what the circumstances, you have may or may not become a parent, not by your choice but by someone else.
I hope that explains it.
@john hall L
It’s even worse than that. If somehow a woman was able to get your sperm without our consent, (think drugged, alcohol, used condom), you would still be liable.
I know that, for me personally, #4 is completely false. I believe that abortion should be legal, but I really do believe in more regulation than there is now (mandatory waiting periods, for example), and it is NOT because I “lack knowledge” that makes me “dumb and angry.” I was told by a religious advisor, who definitely had an agenda (though she was also a woman, so go figure), that if my girlfriend conceived, she could go to Planned Parenthood and have an abortion before I was even aware of the situation. I was shocked and thought “Sure not! There… Read more »
I applaud this author’s candid story-telling. I, myself, am pro-choice and see that being in that actual situation would be a lot different than having an “opinion” on it. But I have some issues with this list- #5, for example, I have known women who really, truly used abortion as birth control, did not use protection and didn’t see this “procedure” as any different the contraceptives, it’s sickening but true. “Be mad at your boyfriend” and “Not have sex for weeks” seem like the most trivial examples of why abortion is difficult. Being upset with the person that made just… Read more »
Hi Jen,
Again, I’m speaking from my own experience. The things I mentioned came from that experience.
The point for #5 is really just…who would make the choice to use abortion as birth control? I gave a number of examples, some more trivial, some less so. The point is, it is a trying and difficult experience, and I just find it really hard to believe that anybody takes it lightly.
You may have known women who did, but I never have.
I am legitimately curious to see statistics showing men are largely behind the pro-life side of the issue. Abortion is such a hard issue for me. I do NOT condone it as birth control, at all. I do think it should be available in the first trimester for medical reasons and for rape/incest victims. But it is a truly emotional issue, and having had the privilege of working as a photographer in the NICU and labor and delivery wards, I have had the unique experience of seeing, touching, even holding babies as tiny, gestationally speaking, as 14 weeks. I can… Read more »
Hi Amie,
I don’t have statistics, but here’s an article that might be of interest:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/01/the-men-behind-the-war-on_n_1069406.html
Thank you for sharing your story.
You evidently don’t live in the US. Here, men have no post-conception “freedom to choose whether or not we have children, and on what terms.”
I live in Canada.
From what have read Canada offers men zero post-conception “freedom to choose whether or not we have children, and on what terms.” it’s just as repressive and discriminatory as the US in that regard.
I think you made the right choice.
I believe that someone becomes a human when they can survive by themselves outside the mother’s body.
embryos are not children.
What do you think of the laws that will prosecute a murderer of killing two people if a mother is pregnant when murdered?
I honestly ask this with no judgement. I personally am so torn and undecided on the abortion debate that I approach it all with complete curiosity and interest in people’s opinions.
Joanna, If it helps, there are amoral arguments out there to help you decide. Personally, I find moralistic arguments to be distasteful. There’s no rational reason to accept secular humanism over Christian morals, both are just sets of unsupported value judgments which people claim to be the “correct” way to think. What helped me get around this was taking a “harm reduction” standpoint. Abortion is going to happen, whether it’s legal or not. The only difference is that illegal abortions will take place without medical supervision, and often without meaningful medical advice. This exponentially raises the chances that complications will… Read more »
Far enough along in pregnancy usually means a couple has invested an enormous amount of emotion and bonding into the fetus/child/whatever word you want to use. So I feel it’s probably a good idea to have some form of law to punish those that harm mother and/or fetus. If my partner was punched in the stomach and the fetus died I know I’d have to be chained down around the attacker or I’d be facing the murder charge.
I’m not telling other people what to do but that’s a somewhat arbitrary standard, as it’s inaccurate. Humans can’t survive on their own for several years after birth.
Yeah, that’s the argument I use… My kids couldn’t survive on their own right now and they’re 7 and 4. But theoretically they could be adopted. But a 22 week fetus could theoretically survive on its own with intense NICU intervention. So where does it end? That’s where I struggle. Actually… Where does it begin? I know if I were facing abortion, I would hope it would happen very early, because I’ve been pregnant and know how “alive” that fetus seems from extremely early on. But women I know and love have had late-term abortions… I just can’t quite get… Read more »
@john hall
“I believe that someone becomes a human when they can survive by themselves outside the mother’s body”
So, then someone isn’t human until they are like 13 or 14 years old. An infant just born can’t survive by themselves, they need assistance to feed themselves, clothe themselves etc. That is where your argument falls completely apart. And in practical reality there is no difference from getting nutrition from the umbilical cord than a bottle or the tit.
@Sara…adoption was considered. So was keeping the baby. Ultimately, it was her choice, and she chose to have an abortion.
“Ultimately, it was her choice, and she chose to have an abortion.” – This is the part of the abortion debate that needs more discussion amongst men. She might listen to your opinion, she might listen to your desire for, or for not, having an abortion. In the final analysis, it has nothing to do with you because it is her body, her choice. However, once she has made her choice, the child becomes your financial responsibility. We are, in the west, reluctant to require women to carry a child to term, so that portion of the debate is stalled… Read more »
@Megan….all I can say is it was very complicated. I’m not justifying what happened, I’m talking about what happened and what I learned from what happened.
If you clearly state that your girlfriend convinced you not to use protection, and then the two of you chose to have an abortion, I’m not sure how you can make the argument that you weren’t using abortion as birth control. I’m all for abortion being legal but rare, but I just can’t wrap my mind around how people can be so careless with one of the MOST important things: using protection during sex if you’re not ready to be a parent.
I hear you BUT, the one person who had no say-so in this decision was the child who lost his/her life. Why is adoption never considered?
Because the early-term fetus is not a child; it is a bundle of cells that might one day become a child. At least, that’s what I believe, and I imagine that most people who have an early-term abortion must believe that as well.
I get REALLY frustrated at people who suggest adoption as some sort of cure-all, as if putting a baby up for adoption was as easy as posting an ad on Craigslist, and solves the problem instantly. It’s not easy and it’s not instant. In the U.S., adoption is extremely expensive, to the point that it’s easier to adopt a kid from a foreign country than to adopt in our own borders (PDF fact sheet available here). It often takes years to complete the process. I concede that there is financial aid, both from the state and from private resources, available,… Read more »
THANK YOU. I hate when I read people saying ADOPTION ADOPTION ADOPTION as if it’s this perfect ending. The system is so flawed, with so many children falling through the cracks and into abusive homes. I’m more surprised to hear a positive adoption story than a negative one. The simple fact is that we don’t need more children in the adoption system, we need less with better care for those who are forced to enter it.
Unfortunately, there is no “perfect” ending if a child is unwanted. However, you don’t seem to understand how this works. First, there is no “adoption system.” Adoption is a legal process. And, infants who are adopted very seldom end up in abusive homes. These are people who have waited for years and spend upwards of $30,000 in many cases just to have a love a child. Abusers are seldom willing to go through all of that. There are as many as two million people waiting to adopt an infant at this moment. If it weren’t so expensive, the number would… Read more »
There is actually a WAITING LIST for infant adoption in the US, check your facts. If a couple went to an adoption agency in the US right now and requested an infant, they’d be told that infants are in incredible demand and that they’d have to wait. This means that every single precious life that was aborted- every baby that was literally mutilated- was wanted and desperately ached for by hundreds of US couples who can’t have children of their own, but crave parenthood. So, that’s a thing.