Danny explores the idea that men are somehow both expected to behave like mindless sex-obsessed animals, and yet are also held responsible for the incredibly high standards of beauty and grooming some women try to live up to.
This post is a result of Joanna Schroeder asking me to elaborate on the mixed signals I mentioned in the comments over at her post, Do Men Really Care About ‘Down There’.
A version of this originally appeared at my blog, Danny’s Corner.
I was sitting in the car about to go into the store yesterday evening when a woman that works in another department at my company was coming out. I’ll come right out and say that I think this woman is sexually attractive. Two things crossed my mind.
First this woman does not fit the image of what I, as a man, am told is sexy. She is black, doesn’t have the so-called correct proportions that make a woman sexy (in her case that would mean she doesn’t have the “exotic” features that are associated with black women), speaks her mind, and does not fall in the age range of the women we are told are attractive (she is nearly twice my age, I’m 31 for reference).
Second, while I think this woman is sexually attractive I did not have to fight off the lustful desire to have sex with her by any means necessary that men are stigmatized with. So I’m wondering about the mixed signals we get about our sexuality.
In one respect men are shown images of scantly clad women showing off almost every part of their body (while leaving some to the imagination, sometimes). These women are usually cut from a very exclusionary mold. Supposedly women are only sexy if they have a certain body shape, are a certain weight, are a certain skin color, have no disabilities, fall in the age range so that she could pass for barely legal, and only act in a traditionally feminine manner.
In order to be considered “a real man”, one must have such a woman (not just be with but have as in own, control, and treat like property). This is why a lot of the women you see on calendars, on the runway, and in porn come from this mold.
However at the same time media tells men that we are supposed to go for anything with a warm wet hole that can give us pleasure (but with enough homophobia and shame over sex toys to remind us that that warm wet hole must be female genitalia). It says that men are horn dogs that will have sex with any woman that is willing (and her not willing is no reason to end the pursuit for the goal).
I recall a line from the movie Hackers. Angelina Jolie’s character said something to the effect of, “Men have larger brains than dogs so they won’t go around humping everything in sight.” Career, education, friends and even family are not enough to stop us from doing whatever it takes to reach the promised land. And of course this leads to the blanket assertion that men are pigs, dogs, jerks, gigolos, womanizers, horn dogs, perverts, lechers, creeps, etc…
So apparently we are supposed to be extremely picky and selective about the people women we find sexually attractive to the point that we exhibit all sorts of -ist behaviors… but at the same time we’re supposed to be so overcome with lust that we just can’t stop ourselves from shoving our cocks in any and every pussy we come across even when our “partner” doesn’t want to engage in sexual activity.
And simply ignoring these signals won’t cut it. Even if my own male sexuality defies both of these messages I still have a problem with them. Once people know that I am male, chances are they will assume that my sexuality is either that of exclusionary to the point of being offensive or inclusive to the point of wanting to bang every woman in site.
Its worth noting that while these two signals happen at the same time and seem to contradict each other they are both part of why male sexuality is thought to be inherently filthy and vile. On one side you have people calling you a slave to your lust. On the other you have people saying your taste in women is discriminating to the point that you’re an asshole.
Despite there being several men who have sexual tastes like mine that don’t abide by the established norms, there is still a problem with them being established norms. First, these norms undermine men and pigeon hole us into the worst image possible either as -ist hatemongers or rapists waiting to strike.
It’s misandry plain and simple. It’s also extremely sexist towards women to imply that in the eyes of men they are expected to conform to a certain image in order to get our attention. These things must be eliminated.
What do you think? Do men exist in a strange double-bind wherein they’re expected to lust and chase after anything that moves, and yet they’re vilified for having such exacting standards for women that women end up feeling unable to please men?
Photo of Beware of Dog courtesy of Shutterstock
I’m a guy about 26 years old. I went to an Arby’s Restaurant in my local town, I love roast beef 🙂 hehe Anyway long story short, I was standing behind the counter waiting to order my food like normal when I had happened to glance behind the counter where they prep the food. These 2 young ladies I would guess around mid twenties (my age I would guess) one friend said to the other that I was obsessive for looking. The truth is I looked at them for not more then 3-4 seconds like a quick glance. They said… Read more »
3-4 seconds is not sexual harassment, I don’t care what anyone says, don’t let them say you sexually harassed them when clearly you didn’t. Leering at them for longer might be uncomfortable for them but I doubt it’s even classed as sexual harassment? Looking at people isn’t sexual harassment in my book, if you stare and keep doing it then it’s just plain old harassment especially if they ask you to look away or whatever. If you purposely look like you’re staring at their breasts, then it could be considered to be sexual harassment as it’s seen as sexual in… Read more »
These are the kind of things we need to talk about more, and why we need the GMP and No Seriously. These are things most people don’t think about – yet they are ways in which our society is horribly sexist towards men. The narratives cut both ways.
Moreover – this narrative is strictly bounded by heteronormativity. It also assumes all men are straight and biologically male. And not just mostly straight – straight and narrow period.
Great post, Danny.
Here’s my totally baseless hypothesis to reconcile your two signals under a consistently useful application. Society has historically asked two things of its men: act and focus. We use a man’s libido to motivate him to act, take risks and sacrifice himself and his resources. Now, after having him up and bothered, we can’t have a bunch of recklessly horny men running aimlessly though society. Nope, we have to focus him on whatever activity selfishly benefits us with the promise of a “biscuit” if he behaves according to the rules. So, its important to us that men are both simultaneously… Read more »
Ahh but this theory is built on the assumptions that 1) all men have a high sex drive and 2) all men get revved up with *this* kind of imagery and, most importantly, that 3) men are more fundamentally driven to follow their libido and do things for their libido than for any other reason. It’s still the “men as dogs” thing. That part I don’t buy at all.
I’m assuming you don’t mean to be insulting, I’d rather say this theory is more evidence of how ingrained our ideas about men and their sex really are.
No insult intended, just pure unadulterated cynicism. To bring your rebuttal full circle though, it could very well be that men on avg are no more lascivious than women on avg and therefore, no more receptive to this type of motivation (although I think a real biological difference does exist). However, we simply select one gender for this treatment regardless because we have other considerations in mind. We may for example, decide that if we’re going to lose a few members of society to a good ‘ole ditch diggin’ or gun shootin’ we’d rather lose a few men than women.… Read more »
I agree with you, Danny, …I think some men are stuck in a double bind…my GF’s and I were discussing a memoir written by a classmate that we knew In JHS/HS (yes, some of us were mentioned in the book!)… He wrote that even though he lusted after and fancied several of the girls (“slow motion movies of them were running through my head”), he tried to act nonchalant and sometimes rather insulting to our faces…it was a way of “keeping things under control”….I suppose that was to impress his guy friends….or maybe even his parents….his mom was anorexic and… Read more »
I say if you find someone attractive, who cares what other people think about it? If you’re following your intuition and living up to some idea or feeling that is within you, then do it! It takes courage and strength to follow your own truth instead of just doing what everyone else does. I say question your beliefs, in all respects. Happy living -Brandon
It’s sexism on both sides and it’s designed by companies in order to sell us stuff. It’s an excuse used conveniently by men and women alike to excuse bad behavior on both parts and to make excuses ao that we don’t have to self reflect. Assumption/excuse #1 Man wants model. Man is horny. Man “needs” release. Man settles for regular woman. Man is pissed that he can’t get model. Man demands woman become like model. Repeat until Man can find model. Man is left unhappy and unsatisfied. Man makes purchases. Assumption/excuse #2 Woman wants man/love. Woman behaves in negative ways… Read more »
I think it’s important to note that the most strict standards placed on women are placed by the media and other women. Body shape may be the only factor in which men place a heavier standard than women. (“heavier”. no pun intended) It’s also important to note that the problem of women getting eating disorders stems not so much from men judging them as sexual partners. Men’s standards for women haven’t changed all that much, as studies have been finding. They have actually been loosening up. The problem with women’s appearance is the judgement weight placed on it. People like… Read more »
I don’t know if the rape thing is in line with being a horndog. When I think of rapists, I think of power. When I think of horndogs, I might think of manipulation to get into the pants, but not rape. FYI.
I don’t know if the rape thing is in line with being a horndog. When I think of rapists, I think of power. When I think of horndogs, I might think of manipulation to get into the pants, but not rape. FYI. Here is where that came from. You may not have heard this happen being a woman and all (or you might have?) but in some circles of guys when talking certains will be said that amount to being so horny and desiring the woman in question so badly they actually say, “She’d get raped for sure.”. As if… Read more »
I think the idea is perhaps that when you combine the aggressive aspect of sexuality with a self-deluded cloud of horn-doggedness then said horn-dog will go on to do something might not be able to acknowledge he is capable of doing. I think he is right that there is an illegitimate connection in the American mind with rape and being a horn dog. But even in France their is some reexamination of values after DSK past of “seductions” has come to light so it isn’t a perfectly black and white issue.
Quite a lot of rapists can easily get sex, so I don’t think of it as horndog. Horndog is more for those guys that have addiction to sex (Californicatttionnnnn anyone? He’s a massive horndog, the mere scent of a woman sends him into heat), guys that don’t get much play, guys with super high sex drives that wanna fuck 3-5 times a day.
Quite a lot of rapists can easily get sex, so I don’t think of it as horndog. But that’s about as empty as saying that women can get plenty of sex. Sure they might be able to get plenty of sex but can they get plenty of sex that they want with who they want? But even so: Horndog is more for those guys that have addiction to sex (Californicatttionnnnn anyone? He’s a massive horndog, the mere scent of a woman sends him into heat), guys that don’t get much play, guys with super high sex drives that wanna fuck… Read more »
Anyone can be a rapist yes, but I feel it’s more about power than sex itself.
Yeah more often than not its power but I think in some cases its about convenient sex.
My take on the “picky not picky” thing. I have met many many men in my day who talked about their standard of beauty for a GF, all while being quite wiling to have sex with less desirables (just not going out with them). It was unclear to me then, but perhaps more now that they might have actually liked the ones that were not so cute, but were embarassed to be seen with them due to social pressure. Or maybe not. It seems, and I could be wrong, that the drive for sex from the male perspective is strong… Read more »
“Is he coming on to me because he actually finds me attractive/is affectionate towards me? Or is he just horny. It makes it hard to trust.” – Thank you for providing me this insight about women. I’ve thought of it as a possibility but I never knew if it was true. But I did go out on a date with a girl who told me that guys wouldn’t date her but they’d want to fuck her. She gave into the urges a lot but she felt bad about it as well. Frankly I didn’t understand that at all. I mean… Read more »
And often, I assume that men and women both engage in flirting for both the “is this going somewhere” and the “I’m horny” perspective…
So what do you mean “coming on” to you. Do you mean if you just met a guy and he indicates a desire for casual sex that you are centrally concerned that maybe his desire is directed toward sex with anyone but not because he is attracted to you? Could you be able to imagine in that scenario that he could want sex with you for affection/attraction and you would be flattered or at least not offended?
No I got you. I think the same thing can be said for men as well. You can desire it but then feel that you haven’t achieved what you want out of it and that can lead to empty and even sometimes feeling like you used somebody. In fact there is a term for it. I thought it was called male sexual frisson but Google is not yielding any results on that one. But it’s a phenomenon that occurs mostly in men where the guy feels immediately a sense of shame and ill being after coitus. It’s actually very common… Read more »
My take on the “picky not picky” thing. I have met many many men in my day who talked about their standard of beauty for a GF, all while being quite wiling to have sex with less desirables (just not going out with them). It was unclear to me then, but perhaps more now that they might have actually liked the ones that were not so cute, but were embarassed to be seen with them due to social pressure. Yes. That is an effect of “I have to date not just any woman but THE WOMAN”. Or maybe not. It… Read more »
There are women I’d have sex with but wouldn’t date, usually if they have a few children (I am NOT ready for kids yet, she’d have to have me head over heels to accept a relationship with that kind of baggage). There are also women I just find barely tolerable, but I might still have sex with them just for the hell of it if I don’t get any play for a while, desperation maybe or just bored of masturbation. Women who may be a bit physically attractive but who’s personality isn’t very attractive. But I’ve thought about pursuing stuff… Read more »
So long as you are completely transparent with those women you don’t want more with, then fine. The problem comes in when the men flirt enough, seduce enough so you think they actually find you attractive and like you! Pump then dump. This is why ladies often feel negatively towards the casual stuff I think.
“The problem comes in when the men flirt enough, seduce enough so you think they actually find you attractive and like you! Pump then dump. This is why ladies often feel negatively towards the casual stuff I think.” On the flipside is it really fair for people to assume that flirting and showing interest is a sign they want a more serious relationship? Both have the responsibility to be open about their intentions but who is wrong and who is right if a guy flirts with a woman with the intention of just sleeping with her, and she thinks he… Read more »
Archy? First of all, duh to all your points and I wasn’t discounting any of them. Secondly, is it at all possible to just listen to what I’m saying and say, “wow, could you tell me more? Sounds like you and some ladies really have had some uncomfortable experiences. Why do you think that happens?” instead of trying to negate everything? Cause it feels like it’s already turning into an argument about whose experience is valid. Thirdly, I’m not talking about a bar/stranger/pick up situation where the goal is clearly sex, not relationships. I’m talking more about men you know… Read more »
My style of discussion usually involves adding another angle to increase the overall awareness n discussion of a topic, so I usually add extra bits in the hope it stirs up debate. It’s not meant to negate you, but simply add a different side, so there are 2 or more experiences, in case you didn’t know I am a real sucker for more info, more more more! I like to think up alternate aspects on a topic too, think outside the box at times, I usually find it get’s people thinking. My idea of pump n dump seems a lil… Read more »
I realize that may sound harsh, just imagine though if you were the one only found tolerable? It just feels like it would hurt so much to know it, to be on the receiving end of it. Makes me shudder.
I agree with Julie. You have to be TRANSPARENT. If you just want casual, LET HER KNOW. If you find her barely tolerable, LET HER KNOW. If you can’t handle her children, LET HER KNOW. Don’t play with her feelings or ruin her perception of men because you want a few moments of pleasure.
Completely agreed here. Often, men feel like they have to pretend to be the nice guy whether that matches their intentions or not, assuming women will only be interested in sex if there’s a possibility of an emotional connection.
Meanwhile, I think women are often reluctant to admit they’re okay with casual sex just being casual sex sometimes.
I think there are probably some men also who are reluctant to say they only want casual sex because it’s often seen as a negative, shallow thing. Often I’ve seen discussions pretty much say the man is using the woman if he only wants sex and the relationship is just casual, that kind of shaming is stupid at best.
Right now after saying what I did earlier I feel like my opinion was hated and that I’m now just a dog…
Speaking from experience, I’ve been told “we can always be friends” and that casual sex won’t change things. It always does. Even when I didn’t want more, the men I knew would get very weird. So for me, and countless other women I know/have heard from, this is true. So it seems shallow, though it’s very hard to know what the “weird” is about for the men.
Feelings popup, it’s quite natural. Or one wants it more than the other, misses it if it doesn’t happen. Guess it depends on the couple (or whoever else is involved).
Define weird though? Is it possible that after you didn’t want anymore not only did you cut off the sex, but acted differently to them without meaning to which could either trigger them to act weird, or just make the situation weird?
So let’s say you gchat three times a week and have coffee once a week. And then after, you get blown off from chat and suddenly no coffee times are available. And when you ask what’s up you get the “nothing nothing busy” and then you just don’t hear from him. Friendship, gone. Of course it’s possible the woman acted weird Archy, of course. I”m not dumb. I’m saying that I’ve had no problem being and maintaining friends with some casual folks. And the way others acted was hurtful and disrespectful when I didn’t demand or expect anything more from… Read more »
Ahh, cold shoulder etc. Btw I believe it happens, I was adding in combinations of behaviours I’ve seen to further the debate. I wonder if women truly get attached quicker (which they seem to based on what I hear, I could be wrong though) because of biology (oxytocin/cuddle hormones seem to be a good theory) or are they simply cultured into that from birth or a mix of both? I know some guys who quite frankly have been shit on over n over by women that they shut down their heart, board it up n put guard dogs with bee’s… Read more »
Yeah, the stereotypical situation of men needing trust for a relationship but ok with casual sex and women needing trust inside a relationship for sex to happen is quite a weird setup.
From what I’ve read of oxytocin, oesterogen has a booster effect on it so it may cause women to feel even more attachment than men. But I am no expert on this, if anyone knows for certain lemme know:P
Welcome to a man’s world. The model of heterosexual marriage in mainstream American culture involves the woman constantly letting the man know that he is tolerable, but just barely, that her approval is conditional and subject to revocation at any time.
I could cite many examples to illustrate it, but I’m lazy, so here’s one: What’s the cultural resonance of the notion of a woman buying a man flowers (or performing some comparable act of contrition) to atone for something she’s done?
I actually kinda agree with Jonathon, I’m used to being told that…
I absolutely agree, Jonathan. And this attitude places the woman in the relationship on a pedestal in an unhealthy way. It makes men feel guilty of some unknown atrocity, or that a relationship (which should be MUTUAL) is instead a generous service that he may or may not deserve, and must therefore repay her generosity. There are two complimentary posters going around the web. 1) Marilyn Monroe saying something to the effect of: “I have my ups and my downs. If you can’t handle my worst, you don’t deserve me at my best.” 2) At the same time, there’s one… Read more »
Reminds me of how often I hear of some men being changed by some women. There’s quite a lot of misandry out there thee days that it can be hard for men to feel tolerable, especially for the poor souls that put women up on a pedestal and feel like nothing compared to her. I guess this is a glimpse into what some of us men put up with?
http://www.girlsaskguys.com/Behavior-Questions/681911-what-about-these-two-images.html
I am an asshole at times, I’m use to being told or feeling I am intolerable. But you don’t need to be super best friends with someone to have sex with them, by intolerable I probably mean something less than you are assuming. Barely being tolerable for a relationship, and barely being tolerable as a person also is very different. I have friends I love to death, but I would find dating them intolerable. Dunno if that makes sense. How do you tell someone you only want something casual, is there a polite way to do it? Until I figure… Read more »
Tolerable for dating I should say. By that I mean ones that are super clingy, having a major negative attribute and a major positive attribute which conflict bigtime. So they may be nice, sweet people but one experience was a girl who’d hold on to me and WOULDN’T let go after sex, saying I might leave her and drive away?!(was my house and I was going to get a drink). So after that experience I was conflicted, one part of me wanted to stay, the other part wanted to run for the hills. Barely tolerable. There might be a woman… Read more »
That was my reaction too. Ugh. I turned down casual sex a few tomes in my life because the guy seemed drunk or too desperate, and it made me feel wonder ” what will he think of this tomorrow?”
Those “barely tolerable” women, and the “unattractive” women who a guy screws because he’s desperate, well they have feelings just like the “better” or more attractive women, they are not less deserving of respect or love.
Everyone is reading wayyy to much into it. Never did I say they were undeserving of love, it’s just that I personally don’t fall for them but I can have a casual relationship with them IF THEY WANT TO. I still respect them, you don’t need to be best friends or even want to be around the people you want to sleep with much to respect them, hence the casual relationships that can be meet up for sex once a month and apart from that you don’t do anything else together. And by tolerate I mean in a dating sense… Read more »
Thank you for the clarification. I think though that I have a very different view of it. I don’t need to be in love to have sex. I’ve had friends with benefits relationships a couple times. However, I cared deeply about those guys as friends, even if we didn’t see each other that much. I can’t imagine wanting to have sex with a guy I didn’t like much, even if he looked like Brad Pitt and was as rich as Bill Gates. I had a discussion along this line with my boyfriend once and he said he’s never understand why… Read more »
I think an issue that needs to be addressed is the idea that immediate physical attraction whatever that form might be whether it’s to an elderly black woman or a 20 year old white woman implies a set of values and motivations which are antithetical to intimacy and emotional needs. “A warm hole” as so many put it. But I don’t think that that is true. You bring up porn which portrays people aggressively fucking each other. But then couples engage in aggressive sex as well. But I think porn often is designed with male emotional needs for intimacy in… Read more »
I think an issue that needs to be addressed is the idea that immediate physical attraction whatever that form might be whether it’s to an elderly black woman or a 20 year old white woman implies a set of values and motivations which are antithetical to intimacy and emotional needs. That needs to be addressed alright. We have somehow come to the point where when a man expresses immediate attraction there is a presumption that its all lust and there is no possible way that there could be a desire for intimacy and emotional connection. Yes there might be an… Read more »
“The problem seems to be the “what” of what is being wanted is often just off kilter enough (or misinterpreted enough) that things fall apart.” I think the problem is that things are misinterpreted and not that things are different. I believe that this has less to do with a particular man/woman way of thinking and more to do with an especially American mentality that sees things in black and white terms. “Which is probably why porn and erotica are so different. Porn is rarely about a storyline of happy ever after. It’s most usually about an enthusiastic partner or… Read more »
What I look at porn, I look at it to get turned on sexually, masturbate and orgasm. I’m not there to look for romance, a love story, etc because that is already in my head. I need help with the visuals, I don’t care for the story. Besides I find thinking about romance makes me feel LONELIER and overall worse, I only like to think of it and watch romance stuff when I have a partner or a mad crush on someone. But for people to assume this is what men want ONLY is absolutely mindnumbingly stupid, it’s only a… Read more »
Archy–Being replacable and interchaneable are not the same thing. Of course everyone is replacable. Relationships don’t always work out. People die. People move on. Feelings fade. Interchangeable is more about the CURRENT situation. In a relationship, at any moment, no one wants to be interchangeable. Even men want to feel special, attractive, and desirable. I am far more enthusiastic sexually and in my relationship when I feel special. I’ve been with men who have made me feel like the only woman in the world. Who made it clear that to them, I was the most beautiful woman in the world.… Read more »
It’s interesting you feel non-changeable?/irreplaceable and special whilst watching porn with some of the guys. Thanks for the comment, it’s nice to know there are women like that out there that won’t see porn as interchangeable ladies. I think it’s important to note as you said how the partner treats you in the relationship. I’ve only felt special once really but she loved me for me, and in turn I loved her for her, the sheer level of joy just thinking about her, the fact that she was more beautiful than anyone I’d ever see was a really powerful thing.… Read more »
Just wanted to add that this post was the result of Joanna asking me to elaborate on the mixed signals I mentioned in the comments over at her post, Do Men Really Care About ‘Down There’.
Also this post is an edited version of one originally release at my own blog (that unfortunately can’t pull up to get a link to right now on a count of being at work).