image stephen sheffield
In my obsessive quest to be better, and to momentarily satiate a serious addiction to information, I am constantly swimming through the interwebs in search of nuggets that lead me closer to that noble yet elusive goal of being a “Good” man, a better writer and honestly, an escape from that clock that seems to tick louder and louder in my head.
I often find myself incredibly sensitive to the world around me, and things impact me deeply, so when all the hullabaloo here at GMP with feminist vs. MRA turf wars, subsequent face changes, and some other personal issues in my life converged, I must admit to a bit of downtime in my spirits. I found myself battling with the same old truth that seems to lie at the core of everything I do. If things are a certain way, then what am I going to DO about it? Am I piling on to a problem by simply pointing it out and screaming my opinions, or am I taking action to create a positive change? A wise old mentor taught me very well the idea of “Ok Varnell, so you are addicted. Big deal. What are you going to DO about it?”
As much as that way of thinking has helped me to where I am, a little more age and hopefully, wisdom has shown me that it isn’t always as simple as that. There are many things that are outside of my control. So I seek. I ask, and seek more for answers. In this case my question was, how can I make sure that I am living what it means to be a Good man in this time and place ? How can I help to carry a message that helps to expand, and illuminate what this “project” is all about.
Last night, Meeca brought some answers. A student majoring in Communication Studies at York University in Toronto, Ontario, Meeca is currently researching representations of queer couples in the media, and the ways in which patriarchal ideals of masculinity harm people of all genders. Apart from studies, Meeca also writes poetry and short fiction, which can be found on Tumblr.
I am quoting the list as originally posted. When I found it there were around 1500 re-posts and “likes”. Meeca has invited all to add to the list as they see fit. I would encourage you to read it on Tumblr too, in order to watch its progression. It is growing, and as you see from the nature of the post, what Meeca really gave to me last night was concrete answers on how to carry the message of my beliefs. Well, that and the hope, with the confirmation once again that sometimes, I don’t need to do a damn thing. The world is changing just fine without me interfering.
Ways Gender-Privileged Men Can Challenge Sexism
(This list will be forever in-progress. Please add on as you see fit).
- Challenge sexist jokes, such as dumb blonde jokes or jokes about rape.
- Avoid using words such as “bitch”, “hoe”, “slut.”
- Recognize when you “zone out” when women are speaking, when you value a man’s opinion more than a woman’s, or when you ask a man for information or advice rather than a woman.
- Recognize times when you “zone out” when a woman is speaking because you are sexualizing her.
- In group efforts, take on tasks such as photocopying, note taking, making phone calls, or providing childcare, which are usually given to women; encourage women to take on male-dominated tasks such as leading meetings, or acting as a spokesperson.
- Use gender-neutral language (ex. Firefighter, chairperson).
- Do not tell a woman how she should understand, express, or conceptualize experiences of discrimination and sexism.
- If a woman is offended by your actions or words, do not use tone arguments. If she does not accept your apology, recognize that she does not owe you anything.
- Check in regularly with your intimate partner(s) to make sure they feel comfortable, fulfilled and empowered by your intimacy.
- Do not make sexist jokes about how your partner (or any woman) drags you to go see chick flicks, forces you to go shopping, has you whipped, or is irritable because she is menstruating. Challenge others when they make these jokes. Avoid playing the role of the long-suffering man who has to hold a woman’s shopping bags and put up with her frivolities and vanity.
- Be polite, thoughtful, and considerate to women because they are individuals who deserve respect, not because you’re a “gentleman” or because of chauvinistic ideals.
- When a woman is completing a task, refrain from stepping in and telling her or showing her “the best way to do that.” Of course, if she asks for your advice or requires help, feel free to do so. But recognize that women are just as competent and capable as you.
- Apologize if you realize you may have offended someone, whether they mention it or not. Do not say: “If that offended you then I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to.” Instead, frankly tell them: “I’m sorry I did that and I recognize it wasn’t okay. I’ll try harder next time.”
- Do not use expressions such as “grow a pair”, “be a man”, “man up”, or “stop being a bitch.”
- Reject forms of media and entertainment that promote sexism. Don’t excuse sexism and discrimination just because “it’s a really good movie.”
- Recognize that just because you are a feminist or work to challenge sexism does not mean you lose gender privilege.
- Do not be offended if you offer to help a woman and she rejects your help. Although you may genuinely have meant to be a good citizen by offering to help lift heavy objects or holding open a door, accept that the woman does not need your help, and that this does not make her a “bitch.”
- Recognize that while some women do hate men and do discriminate against men, that this sort of discrimination occurs in isolation, while sexism against women is backed by centuries of literature, scientific discourse, power/knowledge, philosophy, media representations, “common sense” discourse, etc.
- Realize that representations of women that you might find positive or fair might not be empowering to women. Notice that the vast majority of “positive” female characters or depictions in the media are highly sexualized to appeal to a male audience.
- Understand that much of what you’ve been taught to take for granted (that you are allowed to have an opinion and to voice it; that you can take up all the space you need; that you can become whoever you want; that you can pursue any career or dream you like) is often painfully untrue for women.
- When anyone tells you to stop, or says “no”, or does not actively give consent during any sort of physical contact or intimacy, immediately stop what you are doing. Do not sulk. Do not interrogate if the person is unwilling to explain. Do not complain or make them feel as though their choice to decide what sort of intimacy they want is not an empowered, safe choice.
- Do not make explanations such as “I didn’t mean anything by it”, “It was a joke, you’re just sensitive”, or “I’m not sexist, I have a lot of female friends.” If you have offended someone, listen carefully and learn from the experience.
- Do not police women’s bodies by deciding that “women shouldn’t plaster their faces with makeup”, or that “women should stop dressing like sluts to please men.”
Originally Posted Here, at : SYSTEMATIC DERANGEMENT OF THE SENSES.
Well, this article is obviously sexist and misandrist. A better, more balanced approach would be to attach a list of Ways Gender-Privileged Women Can Challenge Sexism and Misandry to the article. I do salute your courage for posting this on a site for men, however misguided it is.
I feel so privileged as a man.
We get sent out in to wars to die.
We’re the last to get a spot in lifeboats when a ship sinks.
We’re expected to take risky jobs to ensure that society won’t collapse.
Our expected life time is significantly shorter than women.
These are just a few of the privileges the author is talking about I guess. The person writing this doesn’t even list a single thing of his own so I have to assume that the above is what he’s talking about when mentioning male privileges.
@Artemis: Okay, so I might go backward in responding to your points here. Or just out of order. No problem. I agree with this. I am definitely guilty of using sexism/misogyny interchangeably. Sexism to apply to all kinds, specify with misogyny or misandry where appropriate. (oh dear. My spellcheck doesn’t realize misandry is a word. Signs of a bigger issue?) Maybe people use them interchangeably because I have seen people get more offended when being called a misogynist than when referred to as a sexist. I don’t know. Well to me using sexism and misogyny interchangeably isn’t that big of… Read more »
I read the list but I HATED IT. It seems like a lot of feminism is about policing men’s behaviour and giving women greater freedoms. Its like Islam in reverse. All the list is is a large set of moral restrictions on what men should and should not do. I have never liked Islam and its for the same reason I don’t like this list. The restrictions are not nothing. They are a large burden. They restrict men and their personalities. Seems to me that Meeca doesn’t want a man…she wants a santized asexual eunuch. The Stepford Wives movie is… Read more »
Assman,
I agree, except that Islam is restrictive of men too. Islam never said that women have all these restrictions and men can do as they please. In the west we say “my body – my choice” Islam says, “your body – your responsibility”, I guess that is harsher.
Jack, I thought it was a nice list. I think it is incredibly helpful to give tips on how to treat other people well. It’s difficult to see things from another perspective and I think a lot of men can get lost with conflicting messages on how to treat/view women. Really, I wish everyone had to go through a class titled, “How to be a Good Person.” These points would be in that class, among others, including addressing racial privilege and a mirror list for women. on a sidenote: When a woman is completing a task, refrain from stepping in… Read more »
on a sidenote: When a woman is completing a task, refrain from stepping in and telling her or showing her “the best way to do that.” Perfect. I had to sit my boyfriend down and explain this to him. It normally would happen when I just wanted to rant about my day, all I want is empathy and support, not a “you should do this.” On the flip side, he also had to sit me down because I had a tendency to take over his computer when he couldn’t figure stuff out. Oops. :/ On the presumption of wanting to… Read more »
Totally agree. I think a lot of that is rooted in the (very) outdated chivalry system. But unfortunately some people still follow it. An real-life example for the box example you gave: when out to a birthday dinner for my boyfriend’s friend, the bill came and all the couples present were put on their own bills. My boyfriend and I rotate who pays for dinner, not formally, but just like, “I think I paid last time, let me get this.” So it was my turn, and I gave my credit card. When the waitress came back with my card and… Read more »
Every time I come back here hoping we can get back to discussing what it means to be a good man, I leave disappointed. Even when the articles are honest open and intelligent, the comments are horrific.
For the record, I have some feelings about this newest list of “musts,” but I guess I’m too privileged to fairly be allowed to express them.
Peace
Ty
Ty, CopyLeft, David, Eagle, Et al, Here is what the post is all about. Once and for all…I was dealing with the same issues Ty has mentioned here. A perpetual idea that in these discussions no progress was being made. I have watched good writers leave from the carcinogenic comments in some of these threads, particularly on topics such as this. My post here is NOT about those issues that are being discussed. I dont want to debate them If so there was plenty of opportunity to do so with the Hugo debacle recently. My point is simply that at… Read more »
Well, it’s definitely cool that young people are engaged, but A) lists like this have been written before (and widely read), and B) the list makes some very strong statements/assumptions, and does so peremptorily. That’s not dialogue or seeking or sharing, that’s commanding; commands are steps backward, not forward.
Peace
Ty
Jack, I will point to this statement in the list again: “Recognize that while some women do hate men and do discriminate against men, that this sort of discrimination occurs in isolation, while sexism against women is backed by centuries of literature, scientific discourse, power/knowledge, philosophy, media representations, “common sense” discourse, etc.” This is NOT a progressive statement nor does it intend to spark progress. It’s the same argument society uses when men out there speak out against being hurt and not listened too. Paticularly male victims and survivors of female abuse. In light of the CDC study that puts… Read more »
What an irony! The list of ways for men challenging sexism itself is sexist.
Since the list presents ways for men to fight sexism, why aren’t there a few entries about standing up to female sexism and female bigotry? Sexism is gender-neutral; it can be perpetrated by men OR women.
I feel your sentiment but I’m really putting faith in the idea that Jack is not implying that sexism only goes no way and he is indeed only talking about one of the (at least 2) directions it can go. Or at least that’s what I’m trying to do because it seems that with some of the folks around here disagreeing with Jack in the slightest way means you’re being defensive.
I hope so too. Or perhaps he was pursuing a “policing your own first” angle, and standing up to female sexism will be in a follow-up article.
Jack, thanks for writing the article. Your advice will help create a more equitable world for women and men.
It was depressing to see so many defensive comments about your good article.
Im sorry it had that impact for you, Marie. I hope we can all learn to read past the negative. It is simply a story about how positive an experience it was for me at a time of need for a little hope that perspectives are changing for the better about inflammatory ideas. I think we can have a little reward in knowing that, based on the response at the source, the message is needed and wanted. The world and attitudes are going to change with or without my input, and it is good for me to remember that. I… Read more »
Maria: “It was depressing to see so many defensive comments about your good article.” With things like this in the list that Jack endorses: “Recognize that while some women do hate men and do discriminate against men, that this sort of discrimination occurs in isolation, while sexism against women is backed by centuries of literature, scientific discourse, power/knowledge, philosophy, media representations, “common sense” discourse, etc.” You can’t blame some men here for getting defensive. Maria, Jack, do you not see how this here in the list basically excludes male victims and survivors of female abuse. How it excludes men who… Read more »
I was mostly going to take this list on faith and then I messed around and got a free moment to actually ready it. Thing is I can get with the vast majority of this post. However. Do not be offended if you offer to help a woman and she rejects your help. Although you may genuinely have meant to be a good citizen by offering to help lift heavy objects or holding open a door, accept that the woman does not need your help, and that this does not make her a “bitch.” In my experience the ones that… Read more »
I think what he meant by “isolated” was that female-male sexism tends to occur on an individual level, or at least to a lesser degree in institutions and cultural norms. Historically, men have dominated the discourse in our culture. They have possessed positions of power to a greater degree than women, their voices have been heard more than women, their views represented and shaped society. For example, right next to my computer are books spanning the history of evolutionary thought, they are classics in the field. 12 books and all are written by men. Old white men is the cliché.… Read more »
*sexism against men and sexism against women
Literally made men invisible there O.O
Artemis,
The assumption you make is that men are not sexist against men. Someone who is capable of mass murder should be able to fit a little sexism into their program. Historically, women when given the chance, were equally capable of starting wars and committing atrocities.
Men and women are not teams where all men promote men’s interests and all women promote women’s interests. People follow their own interests, even if that interest is self sacrifice for the greater good or submitting to someone else’s will.
I know this is going way of course from what Jack was talking about but…. Artemis: I think what he meant by “isolated” was that female-male sexism tends to occur on an individual level, or at least to a lesser degree in institutions and cultural norms. Oh I understand what he trying to say. I don’t agree with it. The idea that its okay to send men off to die in wars because women are “too important”, the idea that men are incompetent parents, the idea that a man should never be around a child, the idea that….. 1. Those… Read more »
Okay, so I might go backward in responding to your points here. Or just out of order. “However that difference has been taken to the level where that sexism against women has been bronzed as “the definition of sexism” and sexism against men has been renamed to discrimination because “it doesn’t compare to what happens to women”” I agree with this. I am definitely guilty of using sexism/misogyny interchangeably. Sexism to apply to all kinds, specify with misogyny or misandry where appropriate. (oh dear. My spellcheck doesn’t realize misandry is a word. Signs of a bigger issue?) Maybe people use… Read more »
So I’m not supposed to step in and help women. When women at work or in the neighborhood ask me to do the heavy lifting–large box down from the upper shelf, ex–or the dirty work, or the dangerous work, I’m supposed to think…what about them?
Hell, if they have to ask me, I’m probably a jerk for not offering.
Valid criticisms of list making.
Though I do think that lists need to be viewed more like a customer complaint 800 number thing – when you build it, they will come. I would expect a similar list authored by men to be quite scathing.
One of the milder entries might be:
– Do not make lists for my benefit, please.
Just as I’ve already determined. I can’t be good enough to be a good man in this society. Women will just have to be happy with being treated as people. That’s a relief. I thought there was something wrong with me.
I think it’s a good thing when people can serve each other, awareness and compassion go hand in hand..
Thanks very much Judi. PBJ’s to you..
Thank you for sharing this, I appreciate that the list is “real” and not patronizing, and that you have chosen this venue to share it. I’m passing it on to others. Thanks again.
Thanks Jessica. I appreciate the read and comment. Peace.
I think men have it much, much worse. And you don’t even know it. It’s disheartening.
You are making assumptions that you know my thoughts on the subject. The issue I am speaking of is trying to make things different, and one persons impact on me personally by trying to do so, not taking a stand on one position or another.
Oh, that ‘you’ was plural for ‘men’, not for you. I don’t know what you know. But, I do think most men don’t know it. Or, let’s say ‘think it’: they don’t think it, even if they intuit it. I totally disagree with the concept of ‘male privilege’; since I don’t think that men have any advantage over women, in how they’re treated. I just hate to see you guys grovel when you’re already crawling, is all. In a world where women have impunity to treat men as garbageyly as they want, to read a list for men to be… Read more »
Thanks Gabby, I appreciate the sentiment. If you want to know more about how I personally feel you can find similar thoughts here: https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/why-i-advocate-for-mens-rights/. That really isn;t the intent of this post though. I appreciate your input and actually agree with you more than you might think.
Thanks for the link. Will go read it ASAP. I was just thinking, ‘these are feminist demands. Where are the masculist demands?’ Just as a man can want the world to be a better place for women, a woman can want the world to be a better place for men.
Thanks Gabby and you are right. Now we are talking , eh ? I appreciate you getting it. I think it is the labels that are the issue. Say MRA or feminist and everyone has a different idea what that means. I just want discussion and a better place for us all.
“I just want discussion and a better place for us all.”
Hear, hear!
And yeah, I read that article a couple of weeks ago: it was awesome! So nice to see a woman fighting the power like that! To me it’s like this, ‘Masculism: Feminism’s final frontier’; that’s how I came to it, anyway. I just want to hear men speak up and stand up.
I figured you meant “you” that way.
Yay! I must be getting better at comprehension
It seems that for “Mecca” men exist to serve women.
Meeca. Not Mecca. And ain’t it grand we live in a country where all can have an opinion ?
Everybody has an opinion, but when it is presented on public forum, it is subject to criticism.
All good Rapses- I welcome the oppty to learn and discuss. All opinions, and even critique welcomed at all times. Its an opinion piece. We know how that works. Like it or not, it’s mine.
It reads like a list of instructions upon being presented to the Queen of England. Or a list of does and don’ts for hotel staff dealing with a fussy Hollywood star. Does the person writing this list not conceive of the fact that EVERYBODY could write up a list of stuff to do for them whether male or female, rich or poor. In fact you could use the same list. It’s as if she goes through life thinking only she is ever hit by a bad joke or whatever else is on that list. That’s not a sign she’s oppressed.… Read more »
David, I think the point is that someone is actually spending their time attempting to carry a positive message and create a little harmony rather than simply attacking based on…whatever. IMHO, this is what is necessary. Discussion, and resolution. However rudimentary anyone may feel it is, if these things weren’t an issue we wouldn’t be having this discussion at all. Sometimes the basics are what is required in order to build from there. Towards resolution. I find it refreshing, and totally more palatable than a bunch of hardcore idealists much more willing to espouse their sides rather than actually listen… Read more »
I love and appreciate this comment and response. Thanks for the post and being willing to have the discussions the post will bring.
I don’t understand you at all.
Positive message? What did you think was positive in any of that? It comes across as narcissistic nagging. How could any conversation start with such a set of command directives? It shuts down any chance of a conversation with it’s imperious tone. It’s a lot more one sided than anything I’ve seen posted here for a while now. How will this woman learn how to relate to anyone let alone men, if she is praised for this? It’s bullying and dripping with contempt for men.
I am not really qualified, nor do I believe she needs us to teach her how to relate. From what I know she is doing just fine without Jack and David teaching her anything,. There are however many at the source that have felt her words beneficial, and the nature of this post is my story. I was disheartened, and reading about one actually doing something rather than picking fights, insisting on being right, or pushing an unreasonable agenda, and that made me happy. Again, I need to remember that however rudimentary, there is conversation going on and not just… Read more »
Rapses.You may be more familiar with the term “Male Priviledge”.
Hi Jack,
Please explain “Male Privilege” as distinct from different privileges and responsibilities enjoyed or endured by males and females. In other words can you show that men have privileges that outweigh their responsibilities and the privileges that females enjoy to such an extent that “Male Privilege” deserves almost universal attention?
Otherwise why don’t we just say that men should be more considerate of women, while women should be more considerate of men, recognizing that each gender has different needs, abilities, fears and desires. Obviously, there is large variation and overlap within and between genders.
This is 2012. This list is so 1966. Sorry but there is no such thing anymore as male privilege. It doesn’t exist. White women are arguably THE most privileged class there is. I can cite data to prove that statement.
For example, I work with white women all day every day. The lowest wage earner is in the middle six figures. The highest wage earners in our $800M business are mainly white women.
the purpose here is not to academically and surgically dissect taxonomy. It is to highlight that there are those that would rather discuss and find resolution to the actual issues rather than point fingers, troll bait, scream and yell etc. It is that simple. This isnt a feminist vs MRA post. There are plenty of those to be had. This isnt a post to tear down others or point out how wrong they are based on enlightened opinions. This is what it is. An opinion. My story on feeling disheartened by the seemingly endless attempts to tear others down while… Read more »
Jack: “I am not educated and attach no labels like feminist or MRA, or anything else to my name or beliefs. If you want more info on Male Privilege , Feminism, or the Mens Movement, I’m afraid I’m not qualified to offer that and the core of my beliefs is the interpretation individually of those labels. ” Then why throw your endorsement behind someone who uses “Male Priveledge” then? If what you’re saying is true, then why present something where you lack that knowledge? Male priveledge is a loaded term, and that list you endorse is the same old list… Read more »
Actually Jack, I just saw the link you posted for GRW. Sounds like you do take men’s concerns into consideration.
But I still disagree with the intentions behind this list.
I clearly defined my position personally as a separate issue from THIS post entirely. Not taking the bait. Sorry.We can flex it out later, somewhere else.
“It is to highlight that there are those that would rather discuss and find resolution to the actual issues rather than point fingers, troll bait, scream and yell etc. It is that simple”
Sorry but that is what this list has done: point fingers, troll bait, scream, yell, condemn, insult, etc. It’s that simple.
“eemingly endless attempts to tear others down while whining about equality, and how unfair the world is”
Again, that’s what this list is doing.
Please see Eagle34’s comments.
One more time for clarity. This is my story of a specific moment for ME. I am not asking for nor do I need anyone’s approval of how it impacted me and my reasoning to share that moment. Make it ugly, tear it down, call it whatever you want. It STILL isn’t the point of the post. The point is telling a story. That is all. You walk away with your own impressions from your own world view and experience. You are welcome to do so and I uphold your right to it. Enough said.
I would add that if it has stimulated investigation and thought for you…my work is done here.
Sorry, Jack. I don’t doubt your good intentions. However, a foundation to stimulate open dialogue is not: “Here’s how you are why your group is wrong, evil, and oppresive and mine is righteous and victimized by your wickedness. Now, let’s talk about why you are so evil and what you are going to do about it.”
That’s basically the foundation here. It’s not only inaccurate but it shuts down any real conversation, if that was your objective.
John,
I am not educated and attach no labels like feminist or MRA, or anything else to my name or beliefs. If you want more info on Male Privilege , Feminism, or the Mens Movement, I’m afraid I’m not qualified to offer that.
So, agreed. why don’t we just say that men should be more considerate of women, while women should be more considerate of men, recognizing that each gender has different needs, abilities, fears and desires. Why DON”T we?
Thanks for reading and inquiring.
Jack,
I think that radical feminists (amongst others) have hijacked the agenda and language of gender relations. When well meaning people, such as yourself, seek to improve gender relations they constrained by the agenda and language of feminism, lest they be labeled reactionary.
“Male Privilege” is an assumption that requires rigorous critical evaluation.
“Sexism” cuts both ways and increasingly cuts men.
John, All points well worth consideration and I appreciate it. It just was’t the point of this post and not the forum for that discussion. I also am quite invested in trying to keep the focus on what the point of the post was for obvious reasons. It’s meant to be good news, and not a point of contention.
I appreciate your thoughts.
Do you have another list of sexist actions against men that gender privileged women need to take into account as well? Would be a good balance to see.
Agree. Its the labels that are the issue. Should you run across such a list I am sure we would all love to see that as well. Thanks.
What is a gender privileged man???