Trigger warning for rape and boundary violations.
One in six.
According to the website 1in6.org, one in every six men has had an abusive or unwanted sexual experience before the age of sixteen.
After I discovered this statistic, I’ve been doing the math. Statistically, one of the men I’ve slept with has been abused. Three of my male coworkers. Fifty men in my high school graduating class; 66 men in my college. Two men running for the Republican presidential nomination. A dozen men I encounter on the bus or while walking down the street.
One in six men at a higher risk for PTSD, depression, alcoholism, drug abuse and suicide– and I had no idea.
I mean, I’m not exactly in the low-knowledge group about rape. I’ve put up posters on my campus for the local rape and abuse shelter (it is, of course, women-only); I’ve participated in events to raise awareness of rape and marched to raise money; I’ve been that asshole who corrected people every time they referred to a rape survivor as “she”; I’m a fucking sex-positive feminist blogger.
And yet… I had no fucking idea.
Our culture all too often presents rape as a thing men do to women. In fact, only 16% of men with histories of sexual abuse documented by social service agencies consider themselves to be abused. I myself can recall abstinence-only sex education classes in which I was taught how to say “no” to pressure from a boy to have sex that, it was presumed, I did not want; the boys were told not to ask for sex, with no idea that they might be pressured themselves. “Comedy” films regularly depict rape of men as far less serious than rape of women. In the most egregious cases, abused boys as young as twelve years old may be said to have “gotten lucky,” for being players and real men.
Hello, rape culture. It’s nice to see you there.
Every time we characterize a rape survivor as “she” and a rapist as “he”– every time we say a man is a pig who always wants it– every time we congratulate a survivor on his rape– every time we laugh at a joke whose premise is that men can never be raped– we betray those one in six men. We ignore their suffering and their pain; we erase their experience; we contribute to even more men suffering the pain they did.
One in six men have suffered an unwanted or abusive sexual experience.
But it doesn’t have to be this way.
Another interesting finding. The incidence of sexual contact with boys by women was found more prevalent than had been contended in the clinical literature. Male penitentiary inmates reported higher heterosexual contact as children than did college men. The effects upon the boy and his later adult sex life were generally reported as not traumatic, although coercion by the woman tended to be associated with a bad feeling about the experience at the time and a negative effect upon adult sex life. The majority of women were friends, neighbors, baby sitters, and strangers to the boy. Intercourse and genital touching were… Read more »
@Ozymandias “Jess, feminists do not generally have an agenda to marginalize male survivors. (They may marginalize male survivors, but it is almost always more out of ignorance and bias than malice and intention.) Also, many feminists, including myself and nearly all of the other contributors, have accepted the results of this research.” Hi Ozy, feminism has a clear track record of an agenda to marginalize male victims. http://www.familieslink.co.uk/download/july07/Politics%20of%20research.pdf http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/V74-gender-symmetry-with-gramham-Kevan-Method%208-.pdf http://linearthinker.wordpress.com/2010/10/26/weighing-in-on-the-domestic-violence-debate-a-response-to-david-manboobz-futrelle/ That’s not to say that ALL followers of feminism have that agenda, but I think that its fair to say that most will not allow real discussion of male victims… Read more »
Jess, I’ve noticed through your posts you almost always assume bad faith.
Are you familiar with Hanlon’s Razor? It’s a good rule; most people are not evil and painting them as evil just makes you look silly.
Please read the Strauss pdf: Although there are many causes of the persistence of the patriarchal dominanc e focus, I believe that the predominant cause has been the efforts of feminists to conceal, deny, and distort the evidence. Moreover, these efforts include intimidation and threats, and have been carried out not only by feminist advocates and service providers, but also by feminist researchers who have let their ideological commitments overrule their scientific commitments. […] Finally, it was painful for mc as feminist to writc this commentary. I have done so for two reasons. First, I am also a scientist and,… Read more »
Brian I was responding to the assertion that feminism doesn’t consciously marginalize male victims. I posted two papers by respected researchers about the methods that academic feminism has been using to create the illusion that domestic violence is gendered and another piece in which a feminist (David Futrelle) recently tried to minimise male victims using some of the methods brought up by Straus and Gelles. Its common for followers of feminism to be either unaware of the academic fraud surrounding female victimhood and repeat what they have been told believing it to be true or to consciously participate in the… Read more »
I don’t think your post and Ozymandias’s post are contradictory. I agree with her that “generally” feminist don’t seek to marginalize male survivors. The problem isn’t with the most feminists; the problem is with certain feminist leaders and educators, particularly ones who do anti-violence work. This influential minority of feminists keeps the majority of feminists ignorant and misinformed about sexual violence towards men. This pattern occurs in many areas.
The majority of people in political movements are good people. It’s the vanguard of the proletariat that’s the real problem.
I agree with that entirely Hugh Ristik. I would say good people that have been conditioned to think and say bad things through ideology. It’s not exactly uncommon in our history is it? At the same time. If I post on say feministe or manboobz with the more accurate research, I’m pretty sure that a sizable % of the followers of feminism there will consciously be saying anything to dismiss me and it, I believe and that’s the reason that there is so much anger towards feminists in the men’s movement. I also believe that the miss-education and misleading of… Read more »
“I also believe that the miss-education and misleading of followers of feminism, and society by the educators and others at the top, is the main source of the misandry in feminism and much of the misandry we see in society.” Perhaps. But we should also note that a lot of the misandry we see in society predates feminism. The idea that men are base, whereas women are angelic, is pretty damn old. I think this attitude hurts everyone, men and women, though certainly in different ways. I guess that’s one of the reasons I call myself a feminist. The feminism… Read more »
From From Tamen:It also irks me when someone always feel the need to point out that although men can be raped it is also men who most often are the rapist. That anomalise my experience and I can’t even imagine how it must feel for a male victim of a male rapist to hear this – his experience in essence dismissed since the perpetrator was male. ozymandias42: Jess, feminists do not generally have an agenda to marginalize male survivors. (They may marginalize male survivors, but it is almost always more out of ignorance and bias than malice and intention.) Also,… Read more »
Because it isn’t? Or at least, not compared to mainstream society.
Feminism, I agree, doesn’t talk enough about male rape victims enough. But the rest of society doesn’t talk about male rape victims at all. I know the situation is really pathetic, but just by acknowledging that men can be raped feminists are way ahead of everyone else.
Brian,
The mens movement have been talking about raped and abused males and citing the research for a long time now.
Yeah its great that they are bringing it up in larger numbers now but that doesn’t magically erase the fact that there are still a few feminists out there that are in the know on it. In fact barely 2 years ago I did a post answering that very question for a feminist. Despite feminists regularly claiming that they are “the ones” that are fighting for gender equality for all people. If they want to claim that distinction they they have to be ready to pay the piper when they fall short. And also not to come down on you… Read more »
The fact… what?
Don’t leave me hanging!
First off “the fact that there are still a few feminists out there that are in the know on it” should be “the fact there are still a few feminist out there that are not in the know on it.”
And there is also the fact that in my experience “but at least men are….” doesn’t fly to well with feminists. So why should it fly for them? (Brian I’m not trying to come down on you specifically just making an observation.)
Don’t worry TB I’m not gonna leave you hanging.
Here’s a question.
How does acknowledging men as equal victims of rape and DV affect female victims of rape and DV in any way?
Aside from removing toxic female victimhood from the discourse and actually respecting women’s agency?
Because it might not be true?
We’re not denying the moon here; there have been a lot of studies on this and they say things all over the map. You can’t assume you’re right because a few studies say you’re right; we also have a few studies that say we’re right.
I don’t assume I’m right. But I do know that the few studies that find otherwise have serious methodological flaws in terms of capturing female-on-male sexual abuse.
And I’m not wedded to the idea that women are victims; in fact, quite the opposite, I think the mythology surrounding woman-as-victim is actively harmful to women and should be avoided at all costs.
In other words if there is a suspicion that women are not victimized by X at greater rates then men, we should endeavor to at least call the situation ‘unknown’ not perpetuate toxic and potentially false female victimhood.
Depends on what is said and what is asked most studies point in one directions.
Partner physical agressiveness mostly equal. Injury rate not equal.
By far the majority of DV research point in this direction. There isn’t that much studies done on male rape sadly.
Brian.
When you say “You can’t assume you’re right because a few studies say you’re right; we also have a few studies that say we’re right” do you realize that you are comparing genuine independent research with advocacy research?
The advocacy figures from Rainn which seem to be the most often quoted figures by feminists (1 in 33 for men, 1 in 6 for women) have already been debunked by a number of people on the thread. You seem to have something of a bias here..
Of course I have a bias. Everyone has a bias.
By calling the (many and varied) studies that say men are raped less than women “advocacy research” and the (many and varied) studies that say men are raped as much as women “genuine independent research” you reveal you also have a bias; it’s just opposite mine.
Sadly, most studies do not look at the rate men are raped or like in the case of the NVAWS exclude female on male rape. I doubt there are really that much studies out there about male rape victims, or do you have an impressive bibliography at hand?
Brian
So far you have have been quoting advocacy research as if it were genuine research and I’m not sure that there are many and varied studies that measure male non consensual sex. Also, “insisted” implies completion in the past tense, it doesn’t imply failure.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKXVcUSBKH4
Brian, who is this “we” you represent?
Just wondering, since they seem to have their own research team. I’d like to discuss their studies and the built-in bias.
Thanks.
My side of the argument, of course.
Now, are you going to post something serious, or are you going to continue to make fun of me?
Post something serious? As a male survivor of rape I take this topic more seriously than you can possibly comprehend. As someone who has found both support and vicious secondary wounding at the hands of some feminists, I take it very seriously when someone invokes the officious imperial we with regard to discussions on male sexual victimization. No socio-political movement is a monolith and feminists are not excluded from this reality, except by those lacking the ability to see the fractures, conflicting viewpoints and clashing factions and subfactions. When speaking on behalf of “we” with regard to diverse and global… Read more »
I think you missed the point: Abuse isn’t a zero sum game. Admitting that men are hurt a lot doesn’t mean that women aren’t.
That would be the point if the post said “ackowledging men as victims of rape and domestic violence”. But it actually said “ackowledging men as equal victims of rape and domestic violence”.
The reason I’m not acknowledging men as equal victims of rape is that from the evidence I’ve seen I don’t think they are equal victims of rape.
What evidence have you seen Brian?
The reason I’m not acknowledging men as equal victims of rape is that from the evidence I’ve seen I don’t think they are equal victims of rape. You are correct that there is no evidence proving this true. However, there is no evidence proving it is untrue. As demonstrated above, the studies you might cite as proof are often problematic because they exclude certain types of rape. The other studies that show closer rates of sexual violence against men and women typically do not exclude those acts. While that is not clear evidence of equal rates, it is pretty good… Read more »
I have to say that its very encouraging to see feminists talking rationally and respectfully about male victims and feminist stat. manipulation. I’ll be watching to see the response from RAINN. I have emailed various organisations about publishing misleading information on abuse before. I’m of the opinion that a lot of their income and support depends on adhering to the ideological feminist view on abuse and that they would experience a backlash from their supporters were they to be telling truth. Op you said – “One in six men have suffered an unwanted or abusive sexual experience.” That figure is… Read more »
“the figure for adult rape of males by women seems to be 1 in 4”
Do you have a source for that?
Yes there are several that are already posted on the thread, Ill post them again.
Predictors of Sexual Coercion Against Women and Men:
A Multilevel, Multinational Study of University Students
Denise A. Hines
http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/ID45-PR45.pdf
quick bread down of the results here http://feck-blog.blogspot.com/2011/05/predictors-of-sexual-coercion-against.html
Men’s Reports of Nonconsensual Sexual Interactions with Women: Prevalence and Impact
Department of Psychology, University of Potsdam, Potsdam, Germany
Published in the Archives of Sexual Behavior
http://www.springerlink.com/content/t88035m5295g6751/
EDIT – those figures (in moderation) are just for men raped by women.Male on male and inside and outside prison are not included.
Though I criticized the Denise Hines study above, now I’ve read the IDVS questionnaire I’d like to abandon that (the questions are phrased such that all rape questions do in fact ask for rape and not merely skeevyness) and pick up on a probably more crucial target of criticism: None of the verbal coercion questions says or implies that the rape actually happened. “252. I insisted on sex when my partner did not want to (but did not use physical force)” does not imply “and we had sex because I insisted on it”. And all the other “insisted on sex”… Read more »
Brian.
You have been citing advocacy research that has been debunked – RAINN and a few posts by Julian Real and yet you are looking to discredit genuine independent research thats far above and beyond feminist sources in terms of credibility, so Its my impression that you are a feminist with an agenda to marginalize male victims.
Jess, feminists do not generally have an agenda to marginalize male survivors. (They may marginalize male survivors, but it is almost always more out of ignorance and bias than malice and intention.) Also, many feminists, including myself and nearly all of the other contributors, have accepted the results of this research.
Perhaps it’s a language thing since English is not a first language for me, but for me the use of the word “insisted” does at least strongly imply that what was insisted upon actually occured. Wouldn’t one use terms like “I tried to insist…” in those cases where the insisting was unsuccesful? Part of the definition of insist in Merriam-Webster is to not accept refusal.
I think Jess’s comments about an agenda were directed towards Brian, not towards feminists in general.
I don’t agree with Jess’s assessment of Brian’s agenda, but I do find it disappointing that Brian was defending the NVAWS and hasn’t acknowledged its flaws even though several people went to a lot of effort to point them out. I think Brian’s skepticism towards some of these studies is valuable; I just wish he was applying it evenly. I could see how this might look like an agenda.
@Jess: One, you haven’t responded to my argument, two you’re assuming bad faith. So I’m ignoring you from now on.
@Tamen: I insist you delete that post! There, I’ve just insisted that you deleted that post. But your post is still there, so it can’t mean that you’ve actually deleted the post.
@Hugh Tipping: I have acknowledged the flaws of the NVAWS. If you’d like me to repeat myself, (and I AM repeating myself), it’s overly strict towards all rape and it doesn’t cover some kinds of rape that can only be committed towards men.
Brian, the wording may have been the researching attempting to find instances of coercion rather than rape. If you want to find if anyone has tried to coerce someone into sex, whether the sex (or rape) occurred is irrelevant.
You’re right, Brian. I missed your comment because it was a couple days later and stuck in one of the leaves of the threaded view.
Nobody, Like Brian write, the Hines study doesn’t specifically ask whether any sexual act resulted from coercion. Forced and coerced vaginal sex and oral/anal sex were all reported at about 2% of the population surveyed for men and women. I only read the abstract of the Kraye et al. paper. It groups kissing and petting in with intercourse and oral sex, with kissing/petting being the most prevalent. I don’t think that kissing/petting is considered rape, so the prevalence of rape would be somewhat lower. I don’t think it’s reasonable to say that one in four have been raped by women… Read more »
Machina This is women self reporting. “Women’s Sexual Aggression Against Men: Prevalence and Predictors Department of Psychology, University of Potsdam, Germany – 2003 http://www.springerlink.com/content/h4038x61400l8273/?p=f4627938f6ee449bad67bc5f803aebf8 The moral superiourity of women is just a belief, religious and feminist mythology aside, men and women are equally capable of bad behaviour. Kraye et al – you are correct, it finds that 1 in 4 men have been raped or sexually assaulted by women. As for Hines, verbal coercion excluded, men experience forced rape by women more often than visa versa. I think is funny that people will except the figures on women, from dubious… Read more »
@ozymandias42: RAINN lists 1in6 with the parenthetical “men sexually abused as children”. No other organization has its focus listed next to it like that, and it is unclear why RAINN would do it. As for the rate parity, the accepted rate of sexual violence against girls is 1 in 4. The 1 in 6 statistic for boys is based on males who view their experiences as abuse. This means that there are more males who were abused who do not count those experiences as abuse, meaning the 1 in 6 is a low estimate. In other words, the rate of… Read more »
I honestly wouldn’t count on men being the only ones under-reporting.
Nobody is counting on that. Can you stop trying to derail the thread,
Of course, let me correct it: I wouldn’t count on female under-reporting automatically being significantly rarer than male under-reporting. Better?
If you want to tabulate that. Look at research and measure that against the reporting rates and you will see which group is under-reporting. Stop trying to derail the discussion with nonsense.
Can you provide a link to this, please?
doctormindbeam : Can you provide a link to this, please? Ona thread started by Abyss2hope, a response from Richard Jeffrey Newman (18) http://www.amptoons.com/blog/2006/12/03/anatomy-of-a-false-rape-accusation-comment-part-2/#comment-131627 “…Instead of trying to muscle your way into feminist discourse, or trying to force feminist discourse open in a way that is antithetical to feminism itself, why not do the work of developing a discourse about the male survivors you claim to care so much about …” led to a new thread started by Abyss2hope http://www.amptoons.com/blog/2006/12/04/open-thread-for-male-survivors-of-sexual-violence/ As an aside, the comment base appears to have been modified. I say this because the links to other comments do… Read more »
From Alas: http://www.amptoons.com/blog/2006/12/17/male-survivors-of-child-sexual-abuseviolence-and-feminism-a-beginning/#comment-132250
My analysis of the comment: http://toysoldier.wordpress.com/2006/12/20/an-interesting-derailment/
Doctormindbeam, this is going to be hard to explain because I come from a very different background (I stumbled into spaces like these mostly by accident), but what it comes down to for me is that the vast majority of claims about feminists are not based (in anything but the loosest sense) on actual feminists, but instead on repeated claims by anti-feminists. The stuff I was told about American feminism has always been completely at odds with what I have experienced from American feminists, save for a tiny group of radicals who mostly stick to themselves. At the same time… Read more »
AB
You seem to be determined to make this thread about yourself and your ex’s violent relationship, unfounded criticism of the cts and misrepresenting mra’s and anti-feminists. The point of this thread is to provide a feminist space where male victims can share without abuse of males being it being deliberately derailed and minimized by feminists.
That’s fair enough, but I didn’t recall this thread being about using feminism as a punching bag. If this blog in general is about being a free space for men (but not women), that’s fine. If people make that clear from the start, they can talk as much as they want about women being evil bitches, if that’ll help them get better. But if that is not the case, then no one should expect getting to attack and make claims about others and getting nothing but agreement.
No one here is doing any of those things that you are alleging. The idea is that male victims can talk about their experiences and she systemic, cultural, awareness and support services bias against them in a feminist space without hostility from feminists and you should respect that.
Feminists aren’t singled out for criticism. They’re simply not given a free pass. @doctormindbeam: I’ve been struggling with a constructive response. I guess the best I can do is to say that as a feminist, man, I *wish* that were true. I wish that, as in the Jack and Jill post you linked to, a nonfeminist who had a problem with something in feminism would simply explain it calmly and rationally (which as we all know, always results in the other person carefully listening). I wish that every ‘feminist critic’ was motivated by masculism and a genuine desire for true… Read more »
Sorry, I think you misunderstood me. Yes, I fully agree: Feminists are frequently targeted, by MRA blogs and others. Much the same way that “feminists” (here I’ll use the word in quotes, as I’m all into reclaiming the title of “feminist” for myself and not associating with hypocritical fucks) often target other groups for attack, as well. What I meant was, in this blog, we’re not targeting feminists. Christ, most if not all of us consider ourself feminist as well. But as honest critical thinkers — versus blind ideological zealots — we reserve the right to criticize feminism as well… Read more »
Yup. Where I think more strongly feminist-identified people like myself are getting are hackles up is not simply being told ‘ here is a problem’ or ‘this could be done better’, but when it seems to come from a place of ‘you missed a spot’. I’m glad to hear that’s absolutely not something that’s going to be part of the blog (and yes, I did notice that a lot of the knee-jerkers got booted quickly).
I didn’t say that either. All I’ve ever promised is that we’re not going out of our way to target feminism. This all comes back to “what feminism is.” If you’re like me, and you see it as a complementary movement with masculism, then it needn’t ever be said that “you missed a spot.” But if we’re writing about feminism in its self-proclaimed sense of “The One And Only True Movement?” You can be pretty damn sure I’m gonna say, “Oh really? Well why didn’t you do this, then?” In other words, I don’t see it as the single movement… Read more »
I have to say that I agree that the people who use male rape survivors as a tool to argue against feminism are often… frustrating… especially given that feminist spaces are often, ime, some of the more welcoming for male rape survivors. In my experience, that is not always the case. Male survivors usually have to couch their experiences in very specific ways or they risk getting attacked. If one must dance around certain issues or experiences that does not sound very welcoming. But when the critique is coming from a guy who concludes that it’s proof that feminists hate… Read more »
Really? To be honest, everything I’ve personally seen or heard from male survivors implies that feminist spaces, in general, tend to be a “safe space.” Admittedly, my lack of knowledge on this point might be a reflection of my privilege, but would you mind elaborating more? I think you’re probably right about that; some feminists, unfortunately, are not as accepting of the existence of male rape as they should be (although most feminists that I’ve met do not dismiss it). Part of it, I think, is probably a historical accident; for instance, consciousness-raising groups of women raised awareness about the… Read more »
Really? To be honest, everything I’ve personally seen or heard from male survivors implies that feminist spaces, in general, tend to be a “safe space.” Male survivors I run into tend to say that feminist spaces are typically not safe for them. Of course, I think we both have different selection biases. Part of it, I think, is probably a historical accident; for instance, consciousness-raising groups of women raised awareness about the prevalance of rape of women, but no such groups existed for men. Ah, but was this really an accident? Why did feminist groups raise consciousness about sexual violence… Read more »
Hmm… you’re right. The sexual violence survivors who found my blog circles uncongenial are unlikely to stick around. 🙂
Your information is fascinating and is actually what I meant by “historical accident”– i.e. it’s not that feminists who ignore male rape are (usually) evil, it’s that they’re biased. 🙂 Various sexist cultural narratives– the disposability of men, the control of women’s sexuality, etc.– combined with the feminist movement’s tendency to focus on women made male survivors invisible. This is, of course, completely wrong on so many levels and must be fought.
Sounds like we are on the same page here.
Ozymansdias
Male victim of child, sexual and domestic abuse at the hands of females here. In my experience feminist spaces, the feminist controlled victim support services and feminist controlled information (stats/studies) are generally not safe places for male victims or discussion on the reliable research and facts on abuse. Discussion of using the courts and children are weapons also tends to be verboten in feminist spaces.
Hugh, I’m still only about a third of the way through it, but that Adam Jones link is very, very thought-provoking.
You may find this post and the first half-dozen comments helpful in understanding some of the problems that male survivors have with feminism and in feminist-controlled spaces.
For some reason the comment timestamped 11:42 AM 2006 appears further down the thread than it should. It should be in second place. Please bear this in mind as otherwise the thread could be a bit confusing.
A third of rape survivors have PTSD; as a comparison, one eighth of soldiers in combat troops in Iraq have PTSD. That’s right; rape survivors have more than twice the rate of PTSD of active-duty combat troops. Rape is an extremely serious crime. Saying so is not a “political platform”; it’s a fact. (Ozy) I wonder if this could possibly be do to the fact that most men wont talk about their war ‘experiences’ . I have a sneaky suspicion the numbers are probably much higher. In truth how can you even put numbers to how many of either have… Read more »
Right: Because men are supposed to be stoic, strong, unfeeling, and unemotional, no matter what.
Ozy The feminist movement created the term “rape survivor”, and introduced it to its members who now all use it generally without understanding the reason behind the change of language, its hyperbole, a rhetorical trick and I would wager that it damages victims – using language to elevate the seriousness of rape. In reality, rape isn’t life threatening and most rape victims don’t have PTSD, but some would have us believe other wise. I wasn’t suggesting that you got the 1 in 6 male csa figure directly from the men’s movement, I’m saying that the reason for this blog, and… Read more »
A third of rape survivors have PTSD; as a comparison, one eighth of soldiers in combat troops in Iraq have PTSD. That’s right; rape survivors have more than twice the rate of PTSD of active-duty combat troops. Rape is an extremely serious crime. Saying so is not a “political platform”; it’s a fact. Abuse itself may or may not be gendered; however, the reactions of survivors and bystanders to abuse are clearly gendered. And, as the woman whose piece started this whole blog, the only influence the men’s movement had on the creation of this blog was my frustration with… Read more »
I sympathize with both and have known both. I don’t want to play one versus the other, but that’s a really difficult comparison to make. One in eight is 12%, which is the low end of the VA estimate of people who screen positively for it upon returning. The high end is 20%, but some other people say that the real percentage is much higher than that and there are good reasons not to trust the VA estimates. Having gone through the screenings myself, it was just a couple of questions on a paper test and a couple minutes with… Read more »
Just want to point out here that, like I’ve said in my post above, that 1 in 33 number is not dishonest in any way. It’s from a study that used a very strict definition of rape, but RAINN also uses that same study with that same definition as the source for their claim that 1 in 6 women is raped. The reason RAINN is using that study is because it’s reliable (done by the government), not because the numbers are small. The numbers were small across the board in that study; they obviously have no interest in underestimating the… Read more »
1 in 33 may not be consciously dishonest, but it’s both biased and wrong as an estimate of male rape, as I just explained in a followup comment. As I’ve already explained, the NVAWS leaves out rape where the victim is forced to penetrate the perpetrator, and/or enveloped by the perpetrator. It’s from a study that used a very strict definition of rape, but RAINN also uses that same study with that same definition as the source for their claim that 1 in 6 women is raped. Leaving out envelopment isn’t “strict,” it’s just plain incorrect. And it’s quite possible… Read more »
In short it rules out me for one, just mentioning it in case someone are harbouring the idea that rape by enveloping is not possible/does not exist.
I must say I mental blocked that the definition didn’t cover rape by women. So you’re right; though I still don’t think it’s dishonest to use that study, it is at least lazy.
Lazy to use that study, yes, but I would say it’s dishonest to not point out that the 1 in 6 number for women is not comparable to the 1 in 33 number for men, but to set up in such a way (exact same wording) that readers inevitably end up doing the same as you – being misinformed and blindsided.
I must say I mental blocked that the definition didn’t cover rape by women. It does count vaginal and anal penetration with finger or object. Both types of assault could be perpetrated by women, and the second could be perpetrated against men. However other forms of rape are decidedly one-sided. The act of forcing ones genitals into ones victim’s mouth, or forcing ones opposite-sex victim to engage in PIV sex is counted only if the perpetrator is male. So you’re right; though I still don’t think it’s dishonest to use that study, it is at least lazy. A common point… Read more »
Jess, if you don’t like it, don’t read it.
DrMindbeam
I never said I didn’t like it, I like it and am enjoying the learning curve that the blog is on. Cherry picking the good from the men’s rights movement and the good from feminism is the way forward, IMO.
Jess, have you actually spoken to anyone who has been abused about the terminology they prefer? Or are you now going to say that if someone who was raped says that they prefer “survivor” rather than “victim” that they’re simply brainwashed by the Feminist Conspiracy? And really, can you get much more dismissive and snotty about sexual assault than by blowing it off with “rape isn’t life-threatening”. Tell that to someone who was threatened with death if they didn’t comply, or if they told anyone. Tell that to someone who was abused by an adult like a parent who, from… Read more »
Mythago I’m not being dismissive or snotty about sexual assault and and rape when I say its not life threatening, I’m simply stating a fact. The elevation of rape and sexual assault to something that is life threatening through abuse of language, is a rhetorical trick used to increase the impact of the political advocacy and rhetoric. Average feminism generally aren’t aware of this. If I were to use the same argument back at you, I could say that you are being dismissive and snotty to cancer survivors and my argument would be more accurate. RE – PTSD for troops… Read more »
Jess, have you honestly never heard of a person being raped and murdered?
All right, then. Let’s take Vietnam veterans– it’s been long enough ago that the Veterans’ Administration has really no reason to lie about the rate of PTSD. 30% of Vietnam veterans have had some symptoms of PTSD, roughly the same as the number of rape survivors who have PTSD.
The human brain is remarkably resilient and can sometimes endure incredible trauma without breaking down. This doesn’t mean that the trauma is somehow less awful; it simply means that, sometimes, humans are kind of amazing.
All danger is life-threatening. EVERYTHING is life-threatening. If you say “rape is not life-threatening” you vastly overestimate how sturdy your body is.
For fuck’s sake, people have died during REGULAR sex before.
These numbers surprise me not at all.
the ones that were made up on the spot that support your beliefs?
Jess, that is unfair. Mythago has not said anything doubting the studies of the number of men who have been raped. Try to assume people have been commenting in good faith.
Yes I saw that, I’m sorry about it.
Mythago I saw you spreading misinformation about MRAs in a post above and jumped the gun with you.
I find it hard sometimes to call my experience ‘abuse’ when at the time fear was not part of it. I remember some type of shame but no fear. Its strange to try and put words to certain experiences. I see the 1 in 6 numbers for sexual assault/abuse and I keep thinking what are the numbers for those of us who got the beat down regularly before the age of 18? Would the numbers switch and boys/men now would become the 1 in 3 stat and women the 1 in 6?
AB Can you link me to thses “crappy studies designed to show that whatever bad thing happens to women, it always happens more to men, and always because of feminism.” Because from what I’ve seen mra’s and anti feminists cite credible research from the most credible of researcher and feminists cite advocacy research which is designed to cover up the truth about domestic violence and rape. You attitude is exactly the sort of uninformed bigotry that keeps male victims in the closet. Domestic violence studies, especially those up to the standards of Strauss and Gelles do not measure battery against… Read more »
I assume you’re talking about CTS? Yeah, I have a number of issues with it. My violent ex wouldn’t report half the stuff he did because the definitions don’t account for it, but he would have reported me as violent (he openly told me so), even though I was mainly participating in the sort of semi-rough play that went on between him and our male friends too, that he did not at any point feel threatened, and that it never occurred to him to tell me to stop even though he felt completely justified in doing so. On the other… Read more »
AB You personal anecdotes aren’t really relevant because not all men are you ex and not all women are you, vague stories about “the anti-feminists” or unfounded criticisms about the CTS aren’t either. I asked you to show me “crappy studies designed to show that whatever bad thing happens to women, it always happens more to men, and always because of feminism”, can you do that? Also, its best if you allow this rare discussion on male victims to go ahead without derailing it or using it as an opportunity to bash political opponents, there are plenty of other feminist… Read more »
http://www.amptoons.com/blog/2004/06/26/on-husband-battering-are-men-equal-victims/
Hate to just drop a link in here, but this covers the subject pretty well.
Hi Brian Amptoons isn’t a reliable source, he has an extreme bias and is hostile to male victims having access to support services. And research by Strauss and Gelles given that they are the at the top of the domestic violence research game doesn’t qualify as ” “crappy studies designed to show that whatever bad thing happens to women, it always happens more to men, and always because of feminism”, You can see Strauss commentating on the methods to mislead that Julian is using here – http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/V75-Straus-09.pdf You can see David Futrelle, a feminists in the same vein as Julian… Read more »
I did a 3-part series to debunk this very post….only did 2 parts though (really have to finish that one)
http://feck-blog.blogspot.com/2009/08/re-are-men-equal-victims-part-1_26.html
Hugh, you sure managed to mention the name ‘feminism’ a lot. I have a different theory for you. Anti-feminists (who’re far more of a monolith than feminism ever was) have done a good job souring everyone who actually deals with these things to the idea of male victimhood, due to a number of crappy studies designed to show that whatever bad thing happens to women, it always happens more to men, and always because of feminism. I’ve seen the claims of domestic violence against men, which equates the stuff my male friends do to each other (and have no issue… Read more »
This. It in no way excuses anyone who excuses or minimizes sexual abuse of men and boys, feminist or otherwise. But sometimes, for crissakes, it feels like when your SO is sitting with their feet up on the couch playing video games and you’re running around vacuuming, dusting and doing all the work they aren’t doing, and they lean over to say “Hey, lazybones, you missed a spot.”
There are any number of anti-feminists who are less interested in the situation of male survivors than they are in using those victims as a rhetorical club.
Mythago
there cannot be a discussion about hidden male abuse victims without bringing up the fact that feminism has lied to the public about abuse being gendered. Let the discussion take place, its important.
And using abuse victims as political and rhetorical capital is behavior inherent in feminism, the movement relies heavily on it, so people in glass houses and all that.
And using abuse victims as political and rhetorical capital is behavior inherent in feminism
In other words, you and I have nothing to discuss, because as far as you are concerned, as a feminist my only concern for abuse survivors is as political capital.
As a minor point, I don’t agree that feminists has “lied” to the public. Lying implies that feminists knew the truth, and intended to hide it. What we are seeing is not a case of lies, but a case of bias, which is far more pernicious. And using abuse victims as political and rhetorical capital is behavior inherent in feminism, the movement relies heavily on it, so people in glass houses and all that. Right, many groups have been using victims (either male or female) as political capital. This doesn’t mean that their concern isn’t sincere, of course. I agree… Read more »
This. It in no way excuses anyone who excuses or minimizes sexual abuse of men and boys, feminist or otherwise. But it does. The argument is essentially that because of who presents the statistics, the numbers must be wrong or unreliable because it is impossible for that many men to be victims of abuse. That minimizes sexual violence against boys and men, and frankly there is no reason to do this. Acknowledging the rate that boys and men are assaulted in no way changes the rate of sexual violence against women and girls. There are any number of anti-feminists who are less interested in… Read more »
The argument is essentially that because of who presents the statistics, the numbers must be wrong or unreliable because it is impossible for that many men to be victims of abuse.
Whose argument is this? Has anyone really said “it is impossible for that many men to be victims of abuse”? Which feminists has pulled a Katie Roiphe and said “I went around and asked my guy friends, and I couldn’t find more than a couple who were abused so 1 and 6 is just MRA propaganda and isn’t true”?
Whose argument is this? Has anyone really said “it is impossible for that many men to be victims of abuse”? That appeared to AB’s conclusion, at least to the extent that he/she considers the studies cited by “antifeminists” to be “crappy studies”. Likewise, AB does contend that the statistics are propaganda used to “justify violence against women and discredit feminism”. If you want explicit examples of feminists dismissing the 1 in 6 statistic, I have not seen that. However, the implication that males are not abused that frequently is unfortunately a rather common refrain. Instead of directly stating the stat… Read more »
I have to say that I agree that the people who use male rape survivors as a tool to argue against feminism are often… frustrating… especially given that feminist spaces are often, ime, some of the more welcoming for male rape survivors. Which is not to say that feminism doesn’t have its problems with dealing with rape of men. But when the critique is coming from a guy who concludes that it’s proof that feminists hate men, it’s understandable (if wrong) when feminists discount it.
Ozy I think that’s unfair Feminism has been using rape and domestic violence as a shaming and rhetorical tactic for decades now. When people from the MRM approach feminists with the real information, its either genuine advocacy its in response to the feminist (over) use and abuse of female rape and abuse victims of male criminals as rhetorical tricks…. and were it not for the male abuse victims and their advocates in the mrm promoting the facts and making lots of angry noise. We wouldn’t be posting together like this here to today. And I have to question the hyperbolic… Read more »
I use “rape survivor” because it is the term most people who have been raped, in my experience, found most respectful of their experiences, and people have the right to define their own identities.
I was not informed of the 1 in 6 statistic by the men’s rights movement; I was informed of it by 1in6, an affiliate of RAINN, a feminist organization. Which is not to say that other people haven’t been informed of it by the men’s rights movement; there are almost certainly multiple organizations trying to raise awareness of this issue.
Many of us (rape survivors) use the terminology to signify our internal transition from victim to survivor. The term survivor does not solely refer to nearly being killed. Who made that rule? She drugged, raped and blackmailed me. She victimized me. The aftermath of that set off a chain of dangerous and unhealthy counter-responses in response that likely would have culminated in an early death from addiction, unprotected sex, a jealous husband or suicide. Many victims of sexual violence, like many veterans of combat, die years later of PTSD related symptoms directly attributable to their prior experience. It took nearly… Read more »
Jess, I very much agree with most of your posts in this thread, but “survivor” is pretty standard terminology used by both males and females, feminists and non-feminists.
mythago said: But sometimes, for crissakes, it feels like when your SO is sitting with their feet up on the couch playing video games and you’re running around vacuuming, dusting and doing all the work they aren’t doing, and they lean over to say “Hey, lazybones, you missed a spot.” Does missing male victims of sexual violence really seem like missing a spot on a rug? I can understand this reaction, but I think that you and other feminists should try to question it. To me, it seems like feminists declared themselves the authorities on cleanliness, and then missed several… Read more »
You seem to be missing the point of the analogy.
The idea is that “men are raped often” is used less to say “and therefore we should help them” and more to say “and therefore feminism is wrong neener neener”.
Not that that’s justification for ignoring them outright, of course, but it does make you suspicious of people who wander into your thread and yell “but men can be raped too!”
Why should feminists be the first to accept male victimisation and spread the word about it, when all their experience tells them that it will only be used to justify violence against women and discredit feminism, rather than helping the victims, and that that information is furthermore extremely unreliable? It would be expecting a level of generosity from them which they have never been shown themselves. For me (and I’ll bet for a lot a people) its a matter of feminists frequently claiming to be “the ones” that are raising awareness on such violence and are working towards equality while… Read more »
Danny, for me it’s not about ignoring proof, it’s more a matter of having absolutely no reason to believe anything these people say. When you’ve heard that women were only denied the vote because of their privileged position in society, that women owe it to men to obey them as payment for all the wars men have fought with other men, that it is justifiable for men to take sex forcefully if women don’t want to give it, that no man would want a fat women or a woman over 30 but women are wrong for having their own tastes… Read more »
I agree with what you say, although I have to point out that Hugh’s original critique of feminism seemed fairly even-handed to me and I certainly don’t believe he’s a supporter of the rape of women.
Even in a blog like this one, which is supposedly not hostile to feminism, and the topic itself is about male rape victims, Hugh and others use it to take cheap shots at feminism anyway.
Despite there being truth to some of the other things you say in your post what exactly was “cheap” about what Hugh and the others have said?
As criticisms go, Hugh’s wasn’t bad, but I’m tired of how feminism is always made the crux of everything. It’s even worse to know that many of the people who engage in that sort of criticism (including Hugh) seem to mostly do it because feminism has a name. That’s basically what it boils down to, feminism being a visible (and accepted) target and therefore easier to criticise. In the vast majority of cases I’ve experienced or heard about where feminists have dealt with the subject of male rape victims, and where the subject was not presented as an attack, have… Read more »
…yet it’s somehow important to highlight that feminists sometimes let their anger and frustration get the better of them, or that they’re not always 10,000 times better informed than the rest of the population. That seems cheap to me.
Well maybe if they didn’t act like they were “10,000 times better informed that the rest of the population”. Do feminists get unfairly generalized and held to high standards? Yes. But there’s no point in acting like feminists are perfect little angels that have never done anything mean and any aggression towards them is entirely fictional.
Feminists aren’t singled out for criticism. They’re simply not given a free pass. That’s called equality.
“Anti-feminist are more interested in defending the rape of women”
Citation?
Way to drag the debate down to level of the worst of MGTOW and Manboobz, where people freely engage in conspiracy theories, out rights lies and hatred unquestioned.
AB said: Hugh, you sure managed to mention the name ‘feminism’ a lot. That’s true, but it is on topic. Ozymandias lamented failing to know about high rates of sexual abuse towards men, despite having a background in anti-rape activism and involvement with shelters and marches. To me, it seems relevant to wonder how this educational failure occurred, and what it might have to do with feminism, since the people in charge of her anti-violence education were feminists. I tossed out a few ideas. If you think I’m taking cheap shots at feminism, then perhaps you are holding feminists to… Read more »
AB said: Why should feminists be the first to accept male victimisation and spread the word about it I never said feminists should be “first,” but I did suggest that they spread word, and that feminists doing anti-rape work should educate themselves about the prevalence of rape towards men before making claims about the size of the gender gap in prevalence. Why? Because feminists dominate the institutionalized discourse about sexual violence in government, the workplace, and education while receiving federal and private funding? Because they don’t want to give the impression that sexual abuse towards women vastly outstrips sexual abuse… Read more »
Hugh, the most recent example of this attitude (talking about men’s issues=justifying attacks on feminism) which springs to mind is Clarisse’s creep article http://clarissethorn.com/blog/2011/01/02/men-dont-deserve-the-word-creep/#comment-54679 I personally think she goes a little too far in being angry with herself, because I found the article excellent, but I understand the frustration of always having to be on your guard, always having to make it clear that you’re not condoning anti-feminism while at the same time distancing yourself to a lot of (mainly fictional) feminists. Also, I think there’s a fundamental misunderstanding between the feminists who say that patriarchy hurts men too/that the… Read more »
Hugh, the most recent example of this attitude (talking about men’s rights=justifying attacks on feminism) which springs to mind is Clarisse’s creep article http://clarissethorn.com/blog/2011/01/02/men-dont-deserve-the-word-creep/#comment-54679 I personally think she goes a little too far in being angry with herself, because I found the article excellent, but I understand the frustration of always having to be on your guard, always have to make it clear that you’re not condoning anti-feminism while at the same time distancing yourself to a lot of (mainly fictional) feminists. Also, I think there’s a fundamental misunderstanding between the feminists who say that patriarchy hurts men too/that the… Read more »
whenever I’ve seen a guy actually take the initiative to do what feminists suggested, using the feminist framework to address issues concerning men, especially if he makes it its own conversation, feminists tend to react pretty positively Of course they’d react positively. That doesn’t mean that he did anything right necessarily. Capitulating and pandering to someone else is ass-kissing, not intellectual honesty de facto. I haven’t met anyone outside feminist or anti-feminist spaces who actually share the view that women initiating intercourse without permission constitutes rape Well that’s pretty fucking disgusting. If you don’t innately know that rape is rape,… Read more »
Doctormindbeam, I’m not sure you read what I said. Or perhaps you did, but drew a completely different conclusion. I wouldn’t call a man using a feminist framework to address his issues ‘capitulating’ if it works for him. And frankly, I have yet to see a single case of someone saying “I don’t mind a feminist framework, I think there’s a definite value to it, and I recognise the positive contributions feminism has made, but that particular framework doesn’t work for me, and doesn’t address my situation”, rather than something along the lines of “Feminists have utterly failed because they… Read more »
Hugh: Interesting hypothesis. I can relate to it, feminist anti-rape education soured me to claims of female victimization for a long time […] It’s only been in the last view years that I’ve been able to consider consider studies finding high rates of male-on-female rape rationally I just wanted to take a moment to say that I’m glad you found your way through this; because while not all the arguments you make are ones I agree with, I very much appreciate the way they are made. Your evenhandedness, introspection, and lack of antagonism do you credit, and I believe you… Read more »
“AB, I think you’re projecting, quite a lot. I understand that you went through a traumatic experience and I sympathise, I truly do. Your experiences are not everyone’s experiences, though, and I know of plenty of men who have been domestically abused by women, in a very real and concrete way. Much is made of the relative bodyweights of males and females, but humans are a tool-using species and most of the accounts I hear reflect this: heavy objects thrown or just swung and smashed over men’s heads or spines, for example. This isn’t “rough-housing” and seeking to minimise it… Read more »
Repeat after me: Violence is always violence. I don’t care if you used pillows, I don’t care if you didn’t aim for vulnerable spots, I don’t care if you’re small, I don’t care if you’re joking, I don’t care if you think it doesn’t matter, I don’t care if he does it with his friends. Violence is inexcusable and indefensible. Period. Over.
I was thinking of Dr Seuss when I read doctormindbeam’s comment Do not hit your domestic partner Do not hit them just for laughter Do not hit them cause you’re sad Do not hit them cause your mad Do not hit them if they’re a chick Do not hit them if they have a dick Do not hit them with a bat Do not hit them with a hat Not with a rake, not with a snake, not with a knife, not with a fife, not with a book not with a crook, not with a chair, not with a… Read more »
So it is also indefensible when his friends do it, and when he does it? It’s indefensible when done to me and I don’t mind?
What Cheradenine said.
AB, please, I don’t think you’re reading what I’m writing. I feel like you’re having an argument with your ex, not with me. I am not your ex, and I never accused you of violence towards your ex, and you don’t need to defend yourself to me about that. It’s okay, truly. For your own health as much as anything else, you need to get out of the loop of going over those old fights. Please re-read my earlier comment and this time, try and think about other couples. When you say, “But I’m not fine with the idea that… Read more »
Cheradenine, I’m not arguing that I wasn’t violent, or that my ex was. I’m arguing that according to the CTS, both of us were violent, and baring a single episode involving him chocking me, our violence was of equal severity. That tells me quite clearly that the CTS is a crappy tool for measuring abuse. Possibly the best there is, but crappy nonetheless. And since my case relied heavily on the physical differences (as I said, I would have had to resort to more serious violence to get the desired result if I’d been the abusive one, which your examples… Read more »
I’m not arguing that I wasn’t violent, or that my ex was. I’m arguing that according to the CTS, both of us were violent Which is what you just said… our violence was of equal severity when there was no injury, or when it wasn’t in the severe violence category, yes it will end up being rated at equal severity. I read through your other long post and must admit I am kind of dumbfounded and am not sure what you try to argue here. Tell me where I get you wrong. You are fed up with the CTS because… Read more »
Feckless: “Which is what you just said…” No, not unless you’re also willing to define S&M as violence. What I did was always consensual. Non-negotiated, but consensual. If I’d misjudged and he’d actually been hurt, scared, or simply wanted me very much to stop but not felt capable of telling me, it would have been violence. And if I’d wanted to use it for threat, hurt, or physical dominion, it would have been violence too. But just because the Cosmo-style of (non)communication leaves a lot of opportunity for hidden abuse doesn’t make every single instance of it abusive. If people… Read more »
I think that the distinction is less the severity of violence itself, and more the presence or absence of consent. I’ve been hit by friends so hard that it bruised and it wasn’t abusive, because I was entirely consenting during the whole process, it would stop any time I said and I wasn’t being pressured or coerced into it on any level. On the other hand, it is fully possible that a simple, harmless slap can be part of an atmosphere of terror and domination that makes it abusive. For purposes of studies, of course, you kind of have to… Read more »
Cheradenine said: I just wanted to take a moment to say that I’m glad you found your way through this; because while not all the arguments you make are ones I agree with, I very much appreciate the way they are made. Your evenhandedness, introspection, and lack of antagonism do you credit, and I believe you bring something valuable to our comments section. Thanks. I do my best. In case anyone is curious, I once told the story at Clarisse Thorn’s blog about why I felt harmed by the feminist anti-violence education I received. (Example: at a mandatory assembly when… Read more »
Ozymandias said: I mean, I’m not exactly in the low-knowledge group about rape. I’ve put up posters on my campus for the local rape and abuse shelter (it is, of course, women-only); I’ve participated in events to raise awareness of rape and marched to raise money; I’ve been that asshole who corrected people every time they referred to a rape survivor as “she”; I’m a fucking sex-positive feminist blogger. And yet… I had no fucking idea. As you’ve realized, you were miseducated. As Toysoldier pointed out, studies finding high rates of sexual abuse towards men have existed since that 90’s.… Read more »
I always knew the RAINN number– one in 33 men is a rape survivor– which is not necessarily contradictory to the 1 in 6 number (1in6 seems to include fondling, coercion and attempted nonconsensual sexual experiences as well, which RAINN didn’t seem to have counted). I think a lot of it is simple ignorance. Sexual violence education is often obnoxious… although at least the one at my college, iirc, presented the idea that women can initiate sex the man doesn’t want and she has to respect his “no.” I tend to use rape culture as a shorthand for “all the… Read more »
Exactly what percentage of people are raped depends on how you define “rape”.
Though I’m not sure, I’m guessing the 1 in 33 number is “unconsentual penetrative sex of a man by a woman”, while the 1 in 6 number is “sexual abuse of a man”.
Actually, I’m gonna go find out exactly what the numbers mean. One second.
OK, the RAINN number is from this study, which defined rape as “an event that occurred without the victim’s consent, that involved the use or threat of force to penetrate the victim’s vagina or anus by penis, tongue, fingers, or object, or the victim’s mouth by penis.” So, in simpler terms “physically forced unconsentual penetrative sex”, or about the strictest possible definition of rape you can get (to be fair to RAINN, their numbers for rape of women also come from that same study). The 1in6 number is from many different studies, but according their page on it , they… Read more »
Which suggests that the rate of rape of men is far higher than suggested in the study… and also (one assumes) the rate of rape of women.
The NVWS study actually does not include unconsentual penetrative sex of a man by a woman. The study was originally only for studying domestic and sexual violence among women. At the last minute the researchers decided to include men, but they failed to adapt their questions to cover the types of assaults male victims face. The study only asked five questions, and only counts one type of sexual violence against males: penetrative acts. And even then it is very specific, failing to include acts in which males are forced to penetrate, i.e. cases in which women commit rape, even though… Read more »
Yeah TS, the “1in6 only applies to boys” argument shows basic comprehension problems and deliberate minimization on the part of those employing such responses. If 1 in 6 boys are victimized before the age of 16, then what happens when those 1 in 6 become men. Guess what, they have still been raped, sexually assaulted or whatever label is preferred by the individual survivor. They don’t disappear or suddenly become erased except by those who willfully minimize and attempt to erase their existence. Then, some males who were not victimized as children are raped as adults, making the number of… Read more »
ToySoldier: On the link which I found to 1in6.org, the closest that RAINN came to saying that 1in6.org is about “just boys” was saying that they “provide information and resources to adult male survivors of childhood sexual abuse,” which is simply factual. Also, I don’t think that the 1 in 6 statistic necessarily shows parity between men and women in rates of sexual assault. At least one of the studies Hugh cited above (Dube) seems to show that women have had CSA more than men. I’m not saying that the NCVS doesn’t have problems (after all, defining rape as “penetrative… Read more »
@TS: Something more about the NVWS: Straus said the following about the NVWS “(1) It has been presented to the public as refuting the idea of neady equal rates of domestic partner assaults by men and women. (2) It is not ostensibly a crime study. (3) It is a large and well-designed study. (4) It carries the imprimatur of spnsorship by two respected Federal agancies. (5) Perhabs the most important reason is that it provides an example of how an cumulation of small details affecting respondent perception of the study and its prupose can add up to a large difference… Read more »
ozymandias said: I always knew the RAINN number– one in 33 men is a rape survivor– which is not necessarily contradictory to the 1 in 6 number (1in6 seems to include fondling, coercion and attempted nonconsensual sexual experiences as well, which RAINN didn’t seem to have counted). I think a lot of it is simple ignorance. The Dube study doesn’t contradict the RAINN number from the NVAWS study, but some of the other studies I cited shed major doubt on it. Maybe it got lost in the wall of text in my other post, but the NVAWS definition of rape… Read more »
I agree with you that the NVAWS study seems fatally flawed. I have sent an email to RAINN asking them for clarification of their use of the NVAWS study, and hopefully they’ll get back to me soon about why they used this study instead of a more gender-balanced one.
Be very curious to hear the result. That would make an excellent blog post, actually.
As a member of their Speakers’ Bureau I am concerned about this as well. I am interested in seeing their response too.
Nice work. One thing I should add to my post is that the results of the NVAWS aren’t conclusively wrong, it’s just highly likely that they are, so the NVAWS should be considered outdated. To add another note to my previous comment, the German Krahe study found that 2.8% of men in the sample were forced into intercourse by women. That’s already as high as the NVAWS without even taking into account male-on-male victimization (and we know that 60% of child molesters are male from the Dube study), or alcohol. Of course, Germany might be different from the US. For… Read more »
@Hugh Tipping: Is that study known?
Sorenson et al (1992) forced sex: 13.5% of women / 6.8% of men
(As cited by Schwithal “Weibliche Gewalt in Parnterschaften” p.137)
I want to point out here that patching together data from a bunch of sources is not reliable.
A study about a college in Ohio does not say anything about rates of rape in downtown Los Angeles. It certainly doesn’t say anything about rape rates outside of the US.
The 1 in 33 comes from the NVAWS. It explicitly excludes almost every category of rape (of men) perpetrated by women. In fact the only types of female-on-male sexual assault it would have captured would have been women penetrating men anally or orally with foreign objects and forcing them to receive rim jobs. The most common form of female-on-male rape, forced vaginal envelopment, would have not been captured, for example. The 1 in 33 number thus captures mostly male-on-male sexual assault with a small amount of female-on-male sexual assault. Saying this represents the full spectrum of male victims of sexual… Read more »
oops, this was already pointed out!
Ozymandias said: According to the website 1in6.org, one in every six men has had an abusive or unwanted sexual experience before the age of sixteen. Here are some studies supporting this conclusion. Little quibbles are possible with them, but the findings still seem to be in the right ballpark. This page by Jim Hopper is a great discussion of research on sexual abuse of males, and some of the methodological issues. Different methodologies find widely different results. The sort of study that feminists often cite in the defense of their belief that women are overwhelming the victims of sexual violence… Read more »
Anecdotally, Dubes would probably be more likely to overreport for females than males… I know some women who were in consensual, non-abusive relationships with adult men when they were under 18, but no men.
I agree that we need a simple word for “unwanted but consensual sex” that makes it clear that it’s rape-spectrum and definitely not okay behavior, but not rape itself. In fact, I think it’s part of rape culture that we have two, binary options– consensual and non-consensual– and everything you could possibly do, as long as you have the “yes,” is A-OK.
I believe the word you want is “rapey”.
I have used “rapey” sometimes, but I feel it’s not… intuitively understandable… enough for use as a general term for consensual but unwanted sex.
Skeevy, then?
I find that a combination of the two covers everything I need to say.
The definition you quote seems as good as a definition as any. Threatening to end the relationship for sex is pretty clearly coercive rape.
What your friend went through is rape even if he doesn’t want to think of it that way. Great for him that it didn’t affect him much, but that’s still pretty clearly rape.
I’m glad you caught that too, but I think you’re understating how big a failure the definition used but the Dube study is. They are measuring something only tangentially related to what they claim to be measuring. And then credulous (or dishonest) people pass on the number not knowing (or not caring) that it’s completely bogus. The true number could either be lower or higher. Let’s take another look at that definition: Four questions from Wyatt 36 were adapted to define sexual abuse during childhood and adolescence: “Some people, while they are growing up in their first 18 years of… Read more »
I have to say here that all my instincts are telling me not to trust that study. For one that table seems vaguely defined. Nowhere in the study does it define specifically what “insisted on” means. Does “insisted on having sex w/o a condom” mean that they insisted on having the sex they were going to have anyway without a condom, or does it mean they insisted on having sex, and that it must be without a condom? And so on; not having the method used to get them is probably my biggest source for doubt about those numbers. After… Read more »
Grr, should’ve been a reply to Feckless instead of top-level.
feminist critics have debunked amp’s criticism of the study
http://www.feministcritics.org/blog/2010/12/30/ampersands-criticism-of-the-idvs-findings-on-sexual-violence-part-1-rp/
Part 2 of Daran’s post.
Feministcritics ftw!
No they didn’t; they said only that his criticism of the CTS wasn’t relevant to this study. They didn’t say anything about his other criticisms that he made specifically in that post.
http://linearthinker.wordpress.com/2010/10/26/weighing-in-on-the-domestic-violence-debate-a-response-to-david-manboobz-futrelle/
Perhaps that response will help.
I took a look at Amp’s post. I can identify several main criticisms. 1. “Studies that include acquaintances, past relationships, hook-ups, etc., tend to find a lot more sexual abuse of women (relative to men).” This is uncited so it’s hard to respond to. How current relationships could have more sexual abuse then past relationships for men is odd; but this study: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/05/100525090554.htm may offer a clue why. People tend to ‘scrub’ women’s violence from their memories. As for the rest, how much ‘date rape’ is captured by ‘rape in romantic relationships’ is in question. No answer yet, but it… Read more »
I assume “insisted on sex without a condom” => pressured into having sex (that they would have had anyways) without a condom, which is no less coercive than anything else.
Oh, of course it’s coercive, but it’s not rape. So lumping it in with “threatening people into sex” is dishonest.
Coercion is considered rape under most state laws.
Coercing people into sex is rape.
Insisting on a different type of sex than the one that you had originally planned to have is definitely not rape. Which is why it shouldn’t be lumped in with insisting that someone has sex with you in the first place, because that (often) is rape.
Hmm… if one person consents to oral and zir partner pressures zem into vaginal sex, I’d call that rapey at the very least.
I agree with Ozy. If consent is the issue, then no amount of consent to one kind of sex can make up for a lack of consent to other kinds of sex.
Yes, it is. Consent is highly specific, and if what was given was “Yes, I’d love to have sex with you if you use a condom”, condomless sex with that person is nonconsensual without further free negotiation. Free negotiation looks like “Hm, I’d really rather not — how about pulling out?” “No, sorry.” “Damn. Okay then. Oral?”. It does not look like pestering, emotional manipulation/blackmail, or just getting on/sticking it in.
I am still surprised when people involved in victim advocacy say they never heard of the 1 in 6 number. I know sexual violence against males remains largely concealed, but this particular number has been around since the late 1990s. It just goes to show the detrimental impact of framing sexual violence as something that only happens to women. I think the worst impact is not making male victims feel that they do not matter, but teaching boys and men to write off their abuse as normal. That not only skews our ability to learn the rate of abuse against… Read more »
I think there’s likely to be a tremendous problem with male survivors feeling shame: “it wasn’t like I was raped, so why am I an alcoholic/suicidal/suffering PTSD symptoms?” Without the ability to conceptualize what they went through, healing can be a very difficult process.
And I think saying I was involved in “victim advocacy” is a bit much. 🙂 More like I was/am a member of every feminist group on campus and easily roped into doing shitwork.
I think there’s likely to be a tremendous problem with male survivors feeling shame: “it wasn’t like I was raped, so why am I an alcoholic/suicidal/suffering PTSD symptoms?” Quite often they do not make that connection. In the book Betrayed as Boys, Dr. Richard Gartner gave two examples of this. One was a man in his 20s and a man in his 80s. The young man had his first sexual experience with woman when he was a small child. He never considered the act abuse, and never made the connection that act and his relationship issues. The older man was… Read more »
I think a huge part of the problem is that we don’t teach men to recognize what happens to them as coercive and abusive, that we don’t teach them that that’s *possible*. Because then, when someone calls you up or sends a survey and asks you “have you ever been raped or sexually assaulted?” you check “no”, even though there was that one time [insert obvious description of assault here].
How far does the idea of “sexual assault” reach? Is something sexual assault if it doesn’t actually lead to sexual contact? I’m just thinking out loud here.
[TW sexual assault and violence] I don’t know about legally, but personally I believe that if there is violence occuring with the intent to have sex with someone unwilling, even if they don’t succeed in making sexual contact, that is still, to me, a sexual assault (if the survivor wants to classify it that way). I have a friend who recently told me a story of a man trying to drag her into an alleyway. She managed to escape without her breasts or genitals being touched, but with scratched arms and bruises. The mental impact of this was clearly altered… Read more »
Surveys about sexual assault, if they’re any good, don’t simply ask “Were you raped?” but (for example) “Have you ever had sexual intercourse when you didn’t want to because the other person was using physical force, like holding you down or twisting your arm?” You get much more ‘yes’ responses to the latter than the former, sadly.
Even more so there was a study where they asked 7,667 university students on 38 sites about their vitimizations with their current or most recent partner.
The results, surprising:
Linkage here -> http://feck-blog.blogspot.com/2011/05/predictors-of-sexual-coercion-against.html
And the worst part is that when I first read your figures, my instinctive reaction was “that can’t be right.” Knowing about the prevalance of rape of women has been part of my life for so long that it doesn’t really register anymore. The rape of men… is new to me. And every time I read about it I just want to cry.
I hear you….what makes me kind of sad is that most often they don’t even ask men about their experience. Good Post btw. Keep on going!
I would say something meaningful, but I honestly feel like I’m going to cry.
((hugs)) At least now that we know about the problem, we can help. Right?
Of course. The thing is, I was sexually abused at twelve and amongst other… hard life lessons, my abuser asked me if I had male friends he could have as well. I was so scared that I spent months alone because I didn’t want them to get hurt. It might not sound like much, but that’s a difficult thing to find out when you’re so young – that your guy friends weren’t half as safe as you thought. And hearing one in six? Oh God.
I honestly want to say something comforting and helpful but I have no idea what to say. I’m so sorry.
It’s okay. The fact that you made this place exist and that it isn’t a blog where I feel completely suffocated for once actually does help. Thank you. *hug*
You’re the farthest thing from suffocated here. This is a safe space for you.
Good post, and don’t forget what the ghetto-ization of the word rape where only “sub”-categories of rape are reserverd men: prison-rape and male rape. When there is talk about rape it is almost always without any male victims in mind – we are the exceptions, the anamolies which will not be allowed under the rape category. Also try to imagine what the feminist analysis that all men benefit from rape feels like for any of these 1 in 6.
A more accurate and less hurtful message would be that the legitimization of rape against females by males is, by patriarchal standards, beneficial to men.
Rape against men, particularly by women, is not so much legitimized as made invisible.
That still sounds pretty hurtful.
Saying to a survivor of rape that they benefit from the rape of another group of people has got to be hugely triggering.
I actually was told this by a feminist blogger commenting over at Womanist Musings (it was NOT Renee). One of her commenters felt compelled to smash me over the head with it – on a thread that Renee had created after reading my own rape account which had moved her to examine her own preconceptions regarding rape and gender. Renee treated my experience with respect and we had an affirming and nice email exchange. What her feminist blogger commenter said, however, was thoroughly minimizing, ugly and malicious. The person making those ugly and off-topic comments has no idea of the… Read more »
Having given this some time to percolate…. I’m going to respond again. >A more accurate and less hurtful message would be that the legitimization of rape against females by males is, by patriarchal standards, beneficial to men. I really don’t see how the rape of women is beneficial to my father, my brother, my husband. In fact I find this presumption disturbing hate-speech. Just so you know, in the past I have also argued against the idea that the lenient way we treat female sexual abuse is somehow beneficial to women. It’s not. It’s only ‘beneficial’ to the minority of… Read more »
Also try to imagine what the feminist analysis that all men benefit from rape feels like for any of these 1 in 6. You know I questioned (don’t know if they id’d as feminist or not) someone about this a few months ago at Ethecofem. I named a specific male feminist and asked them to explain how rape benefits him, a man that is allying himself with feminism in (what he thinks) is the best way to achieve gender equality. The best that person could do was say my question was invalid because I asked about a specific person. I… Read more »
Post in my head coming up about the more personal side of sexual assault against men.
Never have I more deeply wished women and men were not, in fact, equal.
I’d wish, rather, for women, men, and all other folks to be equal in not experiencing sexual assault at all.
Or at least in having their sexual assaults recognized as real and being supported throughout the recovery process.
Instead we have them equal in not being supported, but in different ways for each gender.
Me too. But what I meant there was…if women truly *did* experience sexual assault more than men, then that would mean there were fewer sexual assaults around. And that would be good.