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I suppose those two are not completely irreconcilable if progressive stacking only evens up speakers to the point where they reflect the demographics of the country but not that of the folks protesting on the street.
I linked here from Amp’s post on Alas. I’m amused to note that the other link (http://feministing.com/2011/10/04/guest-post-my-hope-for-occupy-wall-street/) simultaneously
-calls for progressive stacking
and
-calls for “true democracy.”
Um, one of these things is not like the other. Either people are equal, or not. If you’re privileging the minority over the majority by giving them disproportionate time to speak, then you’ve just tossed “true democracy” out the window. And since “progressive stacking” focuses on identifying minority points of view an selectively bringing them to the forefront, it sure as hell ain’t “true democracy.”
Just sayin’.
Jim:
But that representation has to be representative. White college male students are not going to represent white male blue collar workers. Not at all, not even very well if their fathers and brothers are blue collar workers. Just take some care to get your categories accurate.
And despite the good faith in this whole progressive stacking business this is something that stays in the back of my mind. If all we are going on is white guy then how can that affect the perception of those accurate categories you speak of.
It all comes down to whether you think that “fairness” requires that you treat each person equally, or whether “fairness” requires that you compensate for perceived group imbalances, and do your best to correct them. And whether you think “fairness” is even possible at all. In a group that’s 10% black women, should black women be expected/encouraged to speak more than 10% of the time? If you don’t promote them, then only 1/10 people will speak from their perspective, and their perspective may be lost. But if you selectively promote their views, then (a) you’ve got to make a decision… Read more »
I thin what people are trying to get at with this stacking is some kind of fair representation of views. It can get to a point where it’s bigoted, but that’s a long way off down the slippery slope. i don’t have a problem with representative political work, and that what this really is.
But that representation has to be representative. White college male students are not going to represent white male blue collar workers. Not at all, not even very well if their fathers and brothers are blue collar workers. Just take some care to get your categories accurate.
Somewhat off-topic, but I’m wondering how come everyone is all over the Chevrolet Volt fraud (it’s an hybrid, not an electric car, and it’s 40k$ before your rebate)…and completely ignoring the Tesla Motors Model S, which is an all-electric mid to long-range (160 minimum to 300 miles with a better battery). As if they didn’t even know it existed. “The base model will have a range of 160 miles (260 km) when fully charged, and a 0 to 60 mph (0 to 97 km/h) acceleration of 5.6 seconds. The premium Signature Series will have a larger battery pack available with… Read more »
Yeah, it’s been ages since I’ve read 1984, god that book sucked, so I guess I got the reference wrong. I was just making the reference there, not meaning anything deeper by it, to indicate that I was, in fact, referring to 1984 in that which proceeded. In any case, I will admit that I am no expert philosopher, and I hope you’re not one of those people who think that I have to master all those dry tomes of mental masturbation to have the right to even say such words as ‘deontology’ and ‘utilitarianism,’ as those who tried to… Read more »
Barry: One of the things stressed at Occupy Wall Street is “step up, step back.” This means that people who have been privileged all their life, mainly white men, white women even, people who have been privileged — should realize they need to step up and step back if they’ve already said what they have to say.“ I’ve actually been rethinking this a bit and while you have a point on the “speaking continually” versus “speaking at all” I still have one problem with the selection process of who is expected to step back. Even with that clarification it still… Read more »
@balconyscene I’m a little confused. I hope this whole thing doesn’t feel like an ad hominem attack, but I only think I know what you’re trying to say. Regarding the accusation of doublethink – I’m going to have to point out that my statement contains the conjunction ‘but’ to link two separate clauses. In this instance ‘but’ could be considered synonymous to the word ‘except,’ and is used to demonstrate that I recognize a possible contradiction in these clauses and am clarifying the nature of their relationship and their hierarchy in relevance to me, the speaker. (Here’s another example: I… Read more »
“Well that’s the point.”
“The joke is dead, Jim.”
Stillborn, I believe. 😉
“I dunno, it sounds like progressive stacking discriminates against people who like to talk a lot.”
Well that’s the point.
Here’s something that came up and hopefully there is less to it than meets the eye – I hope Joan Walsh has got this right: http://news.salon.com/2011/10/13/the_man_who_blocked_john_lewis_speaks/
This kind of thing, or the kind of problem somethng like this can be, is why progressive stacking or some remedy is needed.
I dunno, it sounds like progressive stacking discriminates against people who like to talk a lot.
Like me.
Easily Enthused: I tend to agree with your revised appraisal of ‘progressive stacking.’
Barry: Thanks for posting those clarifications.
Since this is an open thread, I’ll go ahead and ask – all this talk has piqued my interest in different forms of queuing people up to speak at an event … but when I google for line stacking for speakers …
http://tinyurl.com/3v8m6gy
Anybody have any external links on the philosophy behind it?
Barry, excellent clarification, thank you. EasilyEnthused, I continue to admire your willingness to reexamine your opinions in light of new information. It’s an excellent trait. I’d add one point: in the speaker-stacking I’ve seen, there is one other selection bias that hasn’t been mentioned. The same person is discouraged from speaking multiple times, especially soon after speaking previously. This selects against That Guy (or gal) who insists on responding to every point made by every other speaker and reiterating his basic thesis ad nauseam. I think we can agree that, across all lines of gender and race and political beliefs,… Read more »
Thanks, Easily Enthused! The only issue I still have with the process is that it might not sufficiently incorporate people who are a member of a group with no outward appearances (for example, a white male with PTSD or Asperger’s might be asked to “step back” when his experiences could be drastically different from the other white men in “his group.) This is a real concern. OTOH, it’s a door that swings both ways. “Progressive stacking” could lead to a person with PTSD or Asperger’s being bumped from the top of the stack; but it could also lead to a… Read more »
Danny: But the recommended solution is to just limit all the white guys from speaking. No, it’s not. As the quote you yourself used says, it’s to limit “continually speaking.” There’s an important difference between “continually speaking” and just “speaking.” I think your concerns are unrealistic. White guys are not being prevented from speaking at #Occupy, or being shut out of the process. At the #Occupy I attended — and from what I’ve read, at #Occupy generally — most of the speakers at GA are white men. Not just a blanket, “you’re a white guy so we expect you to… Read more »
Hugh: In the case of (1), first I don’t agree that men are less marginalized than women. It depends on what dimension of marginalization you are looking it. The dimension of marginalization we should look at, in this case, is either political decision-making in the USA (which is what #Occupy’s decision-making process is an alternative to), or who the participants in GA at #Occupy are. In either case, the predominant voices are white and male, and I don’t think you could make a legitimate case that men in general (or white men in general) are marginalized. In fact, even WITH… Read more »
I quit this thread yesterday because I had to start working, and work wouldn’t get done if I let myself continue contributing here. 🙂 And then last night I went and did some phone calling for marriage equality, followed by going to Occupy Portland for a few hours, and so couldn’t be on the web. One advantage of taking a bit of time off is that it allowed me to rethink my contribution to this discussion a bit. There are two places I want to walk my comments back a bit. First, I should make it clear that I don’t… Read more »
Barry, Thank you for coming back and fleshing out what “progressive stack” means. As you just described it I find it infinitely less offensive and actually, I quite like the idea, especially in the context of a situation where the folks speaking might not necessarily be at odds. The only issue I still have with the process is that it might not sufficiently incorporate people who are a member of a group with no outward appearances (for example, a white male with PTSD or Asperger’s might be asked to “step back” when his experiences could be drastically different from the… Read more »
VERY good posts, Danny and Hugh.
Also , poor people in this country need a better deal. I believe working together we could make everyone better off.
God, this is giving me flashbacks to college… The thing is, I am a white male, and at the time I identified as straight. However, I was also socialized, through being an overweight, clumsy geek (waaay before it was “cool”) to be relatively quiet and tongue-tied. Now, there was not quite a progressive stack at different meetings of the college paper, but there were similar ways of favouring marginalized people, some of them a little specious (one guy claimed to be marginalized because he identified as Irish. In the UK, maybe, but in Canada?) What I noticed is that the… Read more »
@Hugh Tipping When a movement starts discriminating in the name of some utilitarian goal, then we should ask: where does it stop… and who is next?
I agree, and usually the discrimination doesent stop, it just changes the status quó of some people. Usually another revolution is necessary….
The notion of “progressive stacking” is troubling, and I would only support it as a last resort. There seem to be two main reasons given for it: (1) letting the “more marginalized” people speak, and (2) stopping white men from disproportionately dominating the discussion. In the case of (1), first I don’t agree that men are less marginalized than women. It depends on what dimension of marginalization you are looking it. Second, even if men are less marginalized, it’s not the broad population that’s relevant: it’s the people who are actually at the meetup. Men, even white men, who show… Read more »
Barry: They’re not “assuming the worst faith.” That’s a total strawman. It would be a strawman if there was differentiation between powerful white men and non powerful white men. But as it stands: “Step up, step back” was a common phrase of the first week, encouraging white men to acknowledge the privilege they have lived in their entire lives and to step back from continually speaking. There is only, “You’re a white guy so we expect you to step back.” Is there a problem with some white guys doing this? Sure is. Is it fair? Hell no. Is it fair… Read more »
I’ve got it! This is how to handle the loudmouths monopolizing the meetings:
http://politics.salon.com/2011/10/12/anti_semite_gets_called_out_at_occupy_wall_st/