Open Thread

@Schala: “Err, I don’t get what you’re trying to say. I’m comparing infanticide to infanticide” But monkey wasn’t, s/he was talking about mutilation of a possibly violent and abusive spouse, and s/he was the one were answering. Saying that the woman were only treated leniently by some people because she was a woman and not because the person she attacked had allegedly abused her for years, and giving as a counter-example a man who killed two innocent children and was subsequently condemned for it, does not showcase a damn thing. It would be like saying that the McDonald’s guy who… Read more »

“No offence, but when a woman does something, and a man then does something completely different, and the two cases of people doing different things are not treated as identical, it doesn’t mean society if working to oppress the man.”

Err, I don’t get what you’re trying to say. I’m comparing infanticide to infanticide, and saying women get a conservative Victorian pass for it more often, are treated as not really responsible, mental capacities are defacto assumed to have been diminished, and a male enabler is looked for – all things that wouldn’t happen otherwise.

@AB :”Except that they’re likely to find out from headlines like “Feminist uses feminist statistic to call all men paedophiles in feminist blog which just goes to show how all feminists are man-haters”, which means the original blog was likely to have already been taken down, and even if it wasn’t, it would have been so full of hate-speech at the time that it could no longer be called a discussion, only a flamewar.” Another good reason to talk to them….rather than pointing fingers. “let me get this strait, you say that the MRM is unreasonable, therefore it is important… Read more »

“OK, I can relate to that. However, you didn’t answer my question. Is saying that when children’s boundaries get violated it’s mostly because of mothers, and fathers have no influence, misogyny?” Not if it’s a statement of fact. If mothers; and fathers violate chidren’s boundaries equally but mother’s get balmed disproptionately, then that is misogyny. If mothers are being held responsible for failing to stop fathers from violating children’s boundaries, then that is misogyny. But if mothers are doing it most and that is identified, how is that misogyny? Now the circumstances that set women up to violate these boundaries… Read more »

@Kenshiroit: “But since they commented it it means they new about it, otherwise they couldn speak about it. And if they knew it from AVFM it means they walk in thise places.” Except that they’re likely to find out from headlines like “Feminist uses feminist statistic to call all men paedophiles in feminist blog which just goes to show how all feminists are man-haters”, which means the original blog was likely to have already been taken down, and even if it wasn’t, it would have been so full of hate-speech at the time that it could no longer be called… Read more »

@Jim: “AB, mothers in the Us are geting boxed inot a horrible no-win trap, at least middle to upper midle class mothers. They are supposed ot work they are supposed to make sure everything is perfect with the kids and no mistakes are tolerated. Absolute safety, absolute everything. The standards ahev been inflated since when I was growing up to a completley inhuman level. It’s a very destructive fantasy. And when something goes wrong, all the furies of hell (almost always female) are turned on these mothers. And something else. As pig-ignorant and biogted as that Kara-whatsername was in her… Read more »

@Schala: “Recently enough, a man tried to kill himself after killing his 2 children. He didn’t succeed into killing himself, and even though he was portrayed as a good and attentioned father, the community wanted his head on a platter. He had no excuse, no “gone through a lot”, no “unstable mentally” moment. They wanted him to get life in prison, and there was quite literally an outrage when he was declared mentally incapable at the time of the crime (and thus subject to psych evaluation and possibly custody there, but not prison). No one would excuse him, but society… Read more »

@BlackHumor, moving here from JMK thread: “The same people who put Marcotte on that list accuse Jessica Valenti of wanting to put the burden of proof on the defendent in rape cases when what she actually said was that a rape should be defined as “sex without a yes” rather than “sex against a woman’s no”. I will need the actual quotes from her to justify calling her a bigot.” I think they are referring to this, from a Washington Post article by Valenti herself (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/10/AR2010121006996.html): “Swedish rape laws … go much further than U.S. laws do, and we should… Read more »

@Adi asks: If feminism is really on the whole gender egalitarian, then why are there no “radical fringe” elements that are anti-women and/or pro-men? There was in the 70s, the whole right-wing Christian “Total Woman” movement considered itself “feminist”–one of those facts that has largely been flushed down the memory hole now. They did NOT initially call themselves anti-feminist, other feminists did. I think they stopped saying they were “the real feminists” when feminism officially became a right-wing dirty word, maybe around the time of the election of Ronald Reagan. (But Sarah Palin calling herself feminist is squarely in this… Read more »

@balconyscene: “Well fuck anyone who dares to want me to not be ‘socially awkward.’ Not that I am, I can Stepford Smile my way through most social situations if I have to. Point is, who does anyone think they are to dare to want me to be any different?” “I disagree with the idea that not being part of the “productivity uber alles” crowd means you’re not “grown up.” I wasn’t put on this earth to please anyone, and fuck anyone who wants me to.” Isn’t what you just wrote more or less the core of the MGTOW concept (minus… Read more »

@ab: “After it was already taken down. Also, the writers here have written about misogyny from actual feminists, and they still don’t go places where those feminists are being bashed by MRAs. Consider that maybe there’s a reason for this.” But since they commented it it means they new about it, otherwise they couldn speak about it. And if they knew it from AVFM it means they walk in thise places. “Please be a littler more clear. It was important for them to take focus from Jenna’s statements in favour of bashing feminists that aren’t even involved because they were… Read more »

Btw he was portrayed as a good father by his ex-wife (also mother of the two kids) and his mother, who had no reason to portray him in a good light.

“@jim: The woman alleges years of physical abuse. This doesn’t make the mutilation right, but I think the responses were more like “god, she must have been through a lot” than “fuck yeah! cut the bastard!”” Recently enough, a man tried to kill himself after killing his 2 children. He didn’t succeed into killing himself, and even though he was portrayed as a good and attentioned father, the community wanted his head on a platter. He had no excuse, no “gone through a lot”, no “unstable mentally” moment. They wanted him to get life in prison, and there was quite… Read more »

Work brings freedom, indeed.

Anyway, yeah, I’m not well versed in his stuff, save that he seems to be huge self hater.

And you know, I hate having to use that term, “self hater,” as though I love men and see myself as a defender of all things masculine. Honestly, I much preferred having absolutely no empathy whatsoever for my own gender, the problem is that misandry is a real problem and is more tolerated.

@balconyscene

I agree, but the traditional idea of manhood is to be productive, to provide for your family, to increase the growth national income even if your own health and happiness is suffering. That’s the reason why feminist like Schwyzer are actually just traditionalist in disguise. He’s enforcing men’s patriarchal role in society for the sake of women’s liberation.

“@jim: The woman alleges years of physical abuse. This doesn’t make the mutilation right, but I think the responses were more like “god, she must have been through a lot” than “fuck yeah! cut the bastard!”

Of course she does. That post was disgusting bigotry, Monkey, of exactly the same degree as that Karanimal article, and most of the comments are pathological. Cafemom looks like a pathetic sick biogt and if she is defending this mutilator, that discredits her too.

@ Clarence And yes, like I said, some take advantage. Ironically it’s not usually the most popular kids. They can afford to be nice to you. That explains something that puzzled me when I was younger and being bullied in elementary and Junior HS. The kids “at the top” were usually very nice. It was the ones in the middle and the bullies that I had to worry about. That matches up with my personal experiences as well. The most popular kids were usually very nice to me and to others. I assume that’s why they were popular. It was… Read more »

I disagree with the idea that not being part of the “productivity uber alles” crowd means you’re not “grown up.” I wasn’t put on this earth to please anyone, and fuck anyone who wants me to.

@Clarence I think you are fairly right with your speculation. I used to read his blog regularly and got the same impression. Schwyzer doesn’t strike me as somebody who can relate very well to other men. That plus the fact that he’s all too happy to throw other men under the bus makes his writing extremley annoying to me. On a more intellectual level his writing on men lacks depth. He’s not asking the hard questions. Let’s say more and more young men opt out, refuse to grow up (not to say man up) and rather spend their time playing… Read more »

“Maybe. But then when “acting white” is conflated with studying hard as it often is, that’s a destructive attitude to have” Shouldn’t everyone study hard? I say this as a person who didn’t study hard and lived to regret it. “Same with “nerds” who don’t recognize that while social awkwardness and possibly physical weakness contributed to jerks taking advantage of them and some social ostracism that not everyone participated and that if one hopes to change a dominant culture for the better one has to understand it. Hanging outside of society won’t allow them to reach or protect the next… Read more »

“I’m curious, if misandry is supposed to be the male equivalent of misogyny, do you find the following statement about mistakes in child-rearing misogynist?: “At least in our contemporary society, a majority of the boundaries for many children are governed by mothers who think they know best, right down to the bitter end with parental alienation syndrome. In many cases when fathers are allowed (or compelled) to enforce the rules, it’s the mother’s rules they’re enforcing.” AB, mothers in the Us are geting boxed inot a horrible no-win trap, at least middle to upper midle class mothers. They are supposed… Read more »

“Some point out that abuse makes people do desperate things, but I don’t think that’s the same as approving of it.”

What avbuse was there in this case, Monkey?