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About ozyfrantz
Ozy Frantz is a student at a well-respected Hippie College in the United States. Zie bases most of zir life decisions on Good Omens by Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman, and identifies more closely with Pinkie Pie than is probably necessary. Ozy can be contacted at [email protected] or on Twitter as @ozyfrantz. Writing is presently Ozy's primary means of support, so to tip the blogger, click here.
From where I stand it’s the mothers who exclude the fathers in social parenting groups. Fathers simply (and of course not always, for everybody, everywhere…just a trend) are not wanted in mothers groups. It’s a turf thing. It’s insisting that mothers are better. End of story. Dad is the babysitter not a parent, type of shit. Want this to change? Get mothers to stop guarding their privileged parental status. I am a stay at home dad who’s been glared at by mothers when I tried to enter their circle. It sucks for me, but it also sucks for my kids… Read more »
@AB: “Imo, it’s a lot more important than custody, because the custody cases are the result of a culture where men taking on a more primary caregiving role are considered an anomaly. The way I see it, you change the causes first, not the end result. MRAs obviously don’t agree, which is why I’m more partial to feminism when it comes to men’s rights.” No. No, no, no. Do not focus on the complex causes when it comes to legal discrimination. Do not focus on changing the discriminitory views of society, that result in a messed up legal enviorment. How… Read more »
@AB So looking at it from an equal angle, men not believing they can get custody is actually a woman’s issue Of course it is! Intersectionality and the understanding of how oppressions effect people both primarily and secondarily is very important – and of course its important for anyone who isn’t a man but who has men who are friends! I’m not going to do so much direct quoting here, as the conversation jumps around a lot – but I’ll start by responding to you about primary care-giving. Firstly your comments about disability are extremely problematic. I really suggest that… Read more »
Slight typig error in the above post, men’s chances of getting equal or better custody falls from 36% to 33% if the study is correct.
@Feckless: For agreed cases, 64% of the mothers received the majority of time, and 22% of mothers and fathers received equal time (see Exhibit 6). For the few contested cases, 67% of mothers received the majority of time, but only 5% of mothers and fathers received equal time. So according to the Washington State data, contesting matters tends to be a bad idea for fathers. As Lamech said, unless the remaining cases are something different, this also indicates that fathers are more likely to receive majority time in contested cases than uncontested. It’s no surprised that contested cases are more… Read more »
@AGBirch: What, that marriage should be a partnership of equals where any partner can leave at any time for any reason? No, that 50s gender roles are perfectly fine within a marriage, but come divorce, the man should be able to keep his well-paid job and the money it gives him while simultaneously have equal access to the woman’s sphere of influence. Again, I don’t think that this is the case – on the internet you can find people who seem to have this idea heavily in mind (places like Spearhead come to mind) but I have never spoke to… Read more »
Lamech:
Not contesting something doesn’t mean that you got what you wanted.
It doesn’t mean that you don’t care about the result, either.
It just means that you think you can get a better (not “good”, not something you’re necessarily happy with, but better) deal without contesting it.
Which is what I thought that Feckless meant in this
“But what the data suggest is that things go better for dads if they don’t contest the case. Stated another way, they stand a better chance with their ex than they do with the judge.”
“So what the results are is: If fathers don’t contest they are more likely to get equal or greater time, but when they do contest they are more likely to get majority time. ”
For expenses in the 5 digits they might not even have in the first place (for example, don’t ask me to sue anyone for any reason if my lawyer is not free. Can’t afford. Discriminate against me? Can’t do a thing.
@Feckless: First, Disclaimer: I assume the time the mothers don’t have the child its the father’s time not the local wolf pack. Now you mention that when the case is contested equal time goes down by a lot, but there is a third category: father gets more time. That shoots up by a lot, if the fathers contest. So what the results are is: If fathers don’t contest they are more likely to get equal or greater time, but when they do contest they are more likely to get majority time. On a second note: Not contesting something doesn’t mean… Read more »
NOW had to shut down their board back in the 90s I believe. About custody, I cite a F&F article ( http://www.fathersandfamilies.org/?p=16242 ): The Washington data show that, in the year 2009-10, fathers were awarded less parenting time than mothers in 66% of all cases. Fathers got more time than mothers in 17% of cases and the rest of the cases saw parenting time divided equally. More to the point, Washington took a look at contested and agreed cases. In other words, the state examined what happens when dads don’t just passively agree to a custody arrangement, but fight for… Read more »
Collete: Re: Male (or at least het, cis male) sexuality being inherently filthy? I think that’s only part of the picture; in general, sex in the west comes with varying degrees of guilt. Female sexuality is treated as non existant, dirty, and scandalous. The difference is whereas men can “come back” from having been touched, women and their high-maintenance, disease-trap, shelf-life genitalia are forever tainted. Actually there’s more than that going on for male sexuality. Its not that men can “come back” its that they have to be touched in the first place in order to be valid. On one… Read more »
@no more mr nice guy Right, extremist (I lean towards just saying misogynist but call them what you like) MRA’s identify as MRA’s, and it’s not my place to gainsay them – though I can say that they’re not very good at being MRA’s. 😉 This does not mean that the MR movement is a Bad Thing (TM), not does it mean that men’s rights issues aren’t important, nor does it mean that we should dismiss either men’s rights issues or MRA’s on that basis. With your reply to Schala you say that there are many extremist MRA’s, and quite… Read more »
@AGBirch: If you ask an MRA about more extremist MRAs, he will immediately say they are not MRAs while these guys see themselves as MRAs. For example I’ve seen MRAs saying that Inmalafide is not an MRA while he sees himself as an MRA. And the same for Roissy/Heartiste. They may be more extremists but they are MRAs nonetheless. @Schala: The simple fact that a moderate MRA like Glenn Sacks had to shut down the comment section of his blog is a proof that there is a lot of extremist MRAs. If you start a moderate feminist blog you will… Read more »
Shit, just noticed that I was reinforcing the gender binary in that post. My bad ): I blame the patriarchy :p (I should really know better, what not being in the gender binary and all -.-;)
“Do you know many feminists (including radical feminists) blogs that had to shutdown their comments sections ?” Do you know many radical feminist blogs that a non-hater can frequent without being attacked by everything that exists under the sun, if they dare to be a stay-at-home-mother, like make-up, like porn, be pro sex-work (or pro-sex at all), like BDSM, are trans? I’ve yet to know one. Renegade Evolution used to call herself radfem, but she renounced that name a couple years ago, too much friction about sex work it seems. Glenn Sacks attracted more extremists than he was willing to… Read more »
My apologies for the length. I have quoted extensively as I think context is important! @AB “The MRA idea of marriage and custody is bad from the start.” What, that marriage should be a partnership of equals where any partner can leave at any time for any reason? That custody should default to joint custody? I don’t see these things as bad. Yes there are other MRA’s who have contrary beliefs, but I’ve only ever encountered them online, never in real life. “The MRM seems to operate on a different assumption: Men are perfect.” Again, I don’t think that this… Read more »
I am going to bow out of the discussions I am currently in around here for a few days.
My brain is locked in a self-destructive “men are inferior, evil scum” mode at the moment, and hanging out on gender blogs is probably not good for me at this particular point in time.
See you all later.
@debaser71:
Glenn Sacks had to shut down the comments section of his blog two years ago because of the insanities that were posted there, so even him recognize there is a serious problem. Do you know many feminists (including radical feminists) blogs that had to shutdown their comments sections ?
@EasilyEnthused: See, I ACTUALLY agree with you here – which is why I try my damnedest to be reasonable, calm and collected when talking about Men’s Issues. I do want to point out though, that when I made that same argument to groups of Feminists, I was called a concern troll. I’m not calling you a concern troll, but you basically just proved my point from my earlier comment – there is a different standard being held towards men and women who voice anger and frustration over the issues of their gender. I think there’s a huge difference between having… Read more »
And then most feminists only repeat stuff they read on feminist blogs without proofs? For example, when Ozy talks about manhood and she talks about her experiences as a young woman in high school or college…what knowledge is she putting forth? Other than what’s she’s read or watched? I agree that this is frustrating I just wonder why some people only apply this to “others”. Mod note: As a genderqueer individual, Ozy prefers zie pronouns. Zie can live with being called she, but it really gets on zir nerves. The previous sentence was mainly just to demonstrate the use of… Read more »
EE:
It occurs to me that this is in fact what you and AB have both been saying. AB was making that exact point, several times, in the “freshly-hatched gynocratic rage” thread, except that she was making it to say that women are being treated unreasonably when they voice anger and frustration over gender issues.
I’m not saying you need first hand experience, but you need knowledge, and most MRAs lack knowledge, they only repeat what they read in blogs without proofs.
Someone who gets a nasty divorce might have some slight mental health problems in becoming an activist leader (like major depression, it has a habit of robbing people of motivation), while someone who hasn’t had that bad experience and/or who is more fit to a leadership position (by choice) could easily speak about it. But you’re saying it HAS to be this person who’s personally had those issues, who must find the courage to combat this major depression, and somehow, find leadership skills where there presumably was none, or no one at all should speak about it? So, while I… Read more »
Good then non-parents and young adults also have no credibility to discuss parenting and adulthood because of their lack of experience. Glad that’s settled!
I didn’t say that child custody is not a Men’s Issue, I said that most of the manosphere have no credibility to discuss about it because of their lack of experience. For example, here is the discussion between the female lawyer that had issue about no-fault divorce and the MGTOW crowd :
http://divorcesupport.about.com/b/2011/12/03/marriage-2-0.htm
It shows that these guys are not going anywhere. I think that guys like Glenn Sacks or Warren Farrell had some credibility – there are feminists that supported them. But most of the manosphere doesn’t.