Mod Note: The topic of this post is problems with the term “creep,” using “creep” in a non-gendered manner and creating a reasonable person standard for creepiness. The topic of this post is not feminism. Please take anything about feminism to the Open Thread.
There has been a lot of thought in the gendersphere about the word “creep.” I have a complicated position on the issue, insofar as I simultaneously agree with and disagree with everyone.
Creep is a term very often used in a kyriarchial way. In theory, it is non-gendered; in practice, it all-too-often is. Male sexuality is often viewed as predatory and degrading, which means that a man expressing his sexuality– even in a way that would be perfectly acceptable for a woman– is often viewed as “creepy” or “gross.” In addition, men are typically thought to be incapable of not wanting sex, which means that even gross invasions of boundaries by women are sometimes not recognized as creepy.
However, it’s problematic in way more ways than just gender. It’s a kinkphobic term; kinky people’s sexuality, even when safely, consensually and joyfully expressed, is often called “creepy.” It’s a classist term, because it’s often applied to people of lower or lower-middle classes who aren’t “respectable” (not to mention homeless people, who are almost universally considered creepy). It’s an ableist term, applied to people with, for example, autism and Asperger’s syndrome; strange facial tics and odd grooming habits, often considered creepy, may be a sign of a mental illness the person cannot help. Heck, I have a friend who has been called creepy for being trans, which makes absolutely no fucking sense whatsoever.
Nevertheless, I do support the continued existence of the word “creep.” Very simply, we do need a word to express the concept “a person who makes other people feel uncomfortable or unsafe, especially in a sexualized way.”
Western culture encourages people of both typically male and typically female socialization to not firmly enforce their boundaries. Straight women are pressured to be nice, to be polite, to give him a chance, to not make a fuss. Straight men are told that having any boundaries around physical contact with women is unmasculine, since a real man ought to want sex with every woman who wants sex with him. Eliminating use of the word “creep” entirely removes one of our only ways of saying “this behavior violates my boundaries and is seriously Not Okay” with social approval.
Admittedly, we could choose a different word, less laden with baggage, to discuss people who make other people feel uncomfortable or unsafe, especially in a sexualized way. However, I don’t think that will solve the problem. People will just use the new term to shame people in an ableist, classist, kinkphobic, sexist and kyriarchial way, because guess what? We live in an ableist, classist, kinkphobic, sexist and kyriarchal society! Changing the word is a Band-Aid solution.
Ultimately, the solution is to end the kyriarchy. For a more… short-term… solution, the thing to do is to examine your use of the term. Obviously, in the moment, “this person is creeping me out” is as far as you need to go; if you feel creeped out or afraid, leave the situation, don’t sit there examining your use of the term for traces of ableism. However, it’s a good idea to look for patterns in whom you call “creeps.” Have you called every homeless guy creepy, including the one who was sleeping on the bench and not interacting with you at all? Do you think that people with facial tics, even ones they cannot control, are creepy? Do you think the sexualities of some people, such as men or kinky people, are inherently creepy? Do you not describe women doing creepy behavior as creepy? That’s problematic.
One critique that Hugh Ristik, among others, has made of “creep” that I think is actually valid is that it is a very vague term: creepy refers to any behavior that could make a person feel uncomfortable or unsafe. Unfortunately, nearly any behavior could theoretically make a person feel uncomfortable or unsafe. A survivor of horrific rape and abuse might feel uncomfortable or unsafe whenever a strange person talks to him or her, even if that person is just asking the time. That doesn’t mean the survivor has to keep talking to the time-asking person, or that the time-asking person should ignore the survivor’s negative body language, but it also doesn’t mean that no one should ever ask the time from anyone else.
Therefore, I propose the Reasonable Person Standard of creepiness. A behavior is creepy if it would make a reasonable person with only an average amount of trauma feel uncomfortable or unsafe, especially in a sexual way. Behavior that would probably qualify as creepy under this scheme includes:
- Continuing to talk to someone, especially a stranger or acquaintance, who has negative body language (closed up, frozen, shaking head, looking away, responding in monosyllables) or says they would not like to talk to you.
- Hitting on a stranger in an enclosed environment (such as a moving vehicle), a deserted area or very late at night.
- Telling a stranger how much you’d like to fuck them as your opening line.
- Sending a person you went out on a date with thirty emails and ten phone calls.
- Pressuring a person into physical contact (anything from a handshake to sex) they don’t want.
- Hitting on people who are likely to feel pressured into saying yes, such as teenagers (if you are over the age of 21) or students or employees.
- Taking someone out on something that is not a date, which you plan on turning into a date.
- “Accidentally” turning up in the psychology class, coffeeshop or laundromat of the person you have a crush on.
- Only talking to people you want to fuck at a party.
- Poor social skills in general. (Have I recommended SucceedSocially enough yet?)
Et cetera.
In addition, I think there are attitudes that could probably be considered “creepy attitudes.” Viewing every conversation as a means to obtain sex. Thinking of potential romantic partners as games that if only you knew the secret code you could obtain. Being angry that you deserve sex with an attractive member of the correct gender and why is the universe not providing it. Some of these are totally natural attitudes (anger is natural when everyone around you seems to be in love and you’re still alone and lonely and if you died the only person who would notice was your cat, and that only as a food source); however, they are also not productive.
It’s important to note that this standard applies to people who are afraid of being creepy, not people who are currently creeped out. If your gut says “don’t trust this person,” don’t think “well, he hasn’t done anything on Ozy’s Creep List”; think “how can I communicate firmly to this person that I don’t want to talk to them/hug them/go home with them/get in their white van with the candy?” However, as a way to keep other people from being creeped out, I think my definition works the best.
@ AB It’s not that odd, given that the behaviour of the people who agreed with her caused Clarisse herself to become upset. It’s always frustrating when people agreeing with us for all the wrong reasons. I think it was Amanda Marcotte who pointed out in one of the links in the OP that ( I’m really, really paraphrasing) the immoral people who read Thorn’s article will hear what they want to hear and then use that which they hear to endorse their own immorality. She was definitely correct. Life’s full of examples: Stalin advocated Communism, Toquemada advocated Christianity, Charles… Read more »
@Schala: “It seems I’m both more cynical about the world, and more equal opportunity about blaming people in that world. I don’t blame men, or women, or whites, etc. I blame everyone who supports it, and whatever color or bits they have, I don’t care.” You do not have the basis to conclude that I am not equal opportunity about blaming people. Equal opportunity is not the same as equal distribution. I have experienced certain types of injustice more from certain groups than others, often due to in-group/out-group mechanisms, but this does not make me an unreasonable person, or less… Read more »
However, it’s problematic in way more ways than just gender. It’s a kinkphobic term; kinky people’s sexuality, even when safely, consensually and joyfully expressed, is often called “creepy.” I think it goes the other way as well. I do suspect that a man who openly admits that he is actively looking for a wife is widely considered creepy. (Not to say that the effect is non-existent for women. Consider the term babies rabies). One critique that Hugh Ristik, among others, has made of “creep” that I think is actually valid is that it is a very vague term: creepy refers… Read more »
@AB
I can understand what you mean . Maybe creep might be a useful term in the context of telling off guys who don’t know how to take “no” for an answer.
In the context of someone who has politely made an advance (one time) though, I think a polite rejection is the appropriate response.
In other words, let us use this term for those who deserve it. It would be better if women felt more comfortable saying “Sorry, you’re just not my type.”, and that answer were truly respected by men.
@AB It seems I’m both more cynical about the world, and more equal opportunity about blaming people in that world. I don’t blame men, or women, or whites, etc. I blame everyone who supports it, and whatever color or bits they have, I don’t care. Might be about being trans and seeing that injustice against men don’t make up for injustice against women, and in fact, only perpetuate the whole deal (and always have, since immemorial times, it seems). Also, even if I didn’t date much (once in my life) as someone perceived to be male. I can be more… Read more »
Interrupting is a pretty gender-neutral (if rude) behavior. Well, I don’t do the kind of behavior you object to anyways. I don’t tell demeaning jokes about men, or women, or gay, lesbian, bisexual, trans, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, atheists, but I might voice contempt for Christian and Muslim fundies or concepts (not a generalization of those in those faith), simply because they entrench on legal life (ie the concept of marriage is very much steeped in Christian stuff in the West, even if not ‘officially’ – same for how gay people are ‘sinful’). I tend to stay too distant, rather than… Read more »
One of the things I’ve learned as an aspie, is that your feelings and motivations are often invalidated because of teh label. If you say something brutally honest because you truly feel it needs to be said, you’ll be assumed to just not know the value of discretion, rather than having a damn good reason for bringing up the subject. If you feel uncomfortable with some of the social norms around you, you’ll be told there’s something wrong with you and that you need to accept it (one of the most obvious cases are aspie children who’re bullied by being… Read more »
@Schala: “So, if I’m not good, and don’t know what or how I did something wrong, I should pre-emptively warn people to avoid social contact with me, unless they like being stepped on their metaphorical toes?” If you want people to accept a behaviour coming from you which would be unacceptable if coming from anyone else, you should give them a reason. If a guy interrupts me 5 times during a conversation, and repeatedly tell demeaning jokes about women, I’ll normally consider his behaviour to be sexist and act accordingly. If someone goes too close to me physically, and shows… Read more »
Note that in France, the French word equivalent of slut is so widespread in usage, that it means basically anything, and applies to men as well (and yes, it’s a grammatically gendered term, they still don’t care). Slut for them basically means anyone who even annoys them. It has lost all relevance to measure anything sexual by this, too.
@Jay Generally: “It’s a little odd for me that Clarisse Thorn’s initial (and fantastic) article prompted so many of people to defend the very existence of ‘creep.’” It’s not that odd, given that the behaviour of the people who agreed with her caused Clarisse herself to become upset. Here’s her last post before she closed the original thread, dealing with the way people have used her article to defend attitudes and behaviours which she herself is against: “When I read this article over now, I feel angry at myself for how I wrote it. No one else had written anything… Read more »
@AB
So, if I’m not good, and don’t know what or how I did something wrong, I should pre-emptively warn people to avoid social contact with me, unless they like being stepped on their metaphorical toes? I should also tell all transphobic radfems that I’m trans so they don’t get attracted to me and then call me a man.
@Schala: “This isn’t what Tamen said. I don’t condone willfull ignorance either, but saying “Yeah, you’re creepy, live with the taint” is just ableist – and it doesn’t matter if it comes from a fellow aspie. I’ve seen transphobic trans people.” Tamen compared my suggestion that if you know you’re not capable of judging if your behaviour is inappropriate or not, you should inform people of your problems rather than expecting to have the rules of appropriateness adjusted exactly to your behaviour, to the way Nazis forced Jews and homosexuals to identify themselves. And that’s disgusting. Also, I’m not saying… Read more »
This seems like the point in a decent and civilized conversation where folks need to take a deep breath and recenter themselves, so that it can continue being a decent and civilized conversation. If you don’t know what “recenter” means, ask some poor bastard who grew up in Northern California like I did. 🙂
It’s a little odd for me that Clarisse Thorn’s initial (and fantastic) article prompted so many of people to defend the very existence of ‘creep.’ The way I read the original article: people might want to reflect on their own personal use, and possible abuse, of the term and how the word is so frequently used in a gendered way that we may very well be creating, or have created, a masculine-gendered sexual pejorative (similar to ‘slut’ and a modern day equivalent to ‘masher’ or ‘cad.’) If we have come up with such a thing, it could do a lot… Read more »
“Do you know what I and many of my aspie friends think about the type of people who go “I should be allowed to act exactly as I feel like, because I’m autistic and I can’t help it”? We think they’re a fucking disgrace!” This isn’t what Tamen said. I don’t condone willfull ignorance either, but saying “Yeah, you’re creepy, live with the taint” is just ableist – and it doesn’t matter if it comes from a fellow aspie. I’ve seen transphobic trans people. Also, aspie here, trans woman aspie. Seems common amongst trans folk, or just more looked at… Read more »
@ami Angelwings So the “hills” crack (and a subsequent reference to “shirt potatoes”) was actually legitimately creepy? Or is this a case of “5 folks, 10 opinions”?
@Tamen: “Hm…how could we go about that, perhaps having them wear a yellow star or a pink triangle on their lapels. Wait, those are already taken. Perhaps a boogey-green square lapel pin would suffice? If there was a notion which deserved being Goodwin’ed in this thread it’s the notion that ASD people are obliged to tell people they meet that they are ASD to ensure that those people are not offended, unconfortable or creeped out. I mean, come on!” Listen, I AM one of those ‘ASD people’, and the reason I usually don’t tell people in places like here (though… Read more »
Aw, fuck. Could any moderators have mercy on me and edit my above comment and insert a end blockquote tag after the first paragraph which ends with “…they need to make people aware of it.”? I wish for an edit functionality for X-mas by the way.
AB: About ASD people: In a word, yes. Or rather, those who genuinely have problems with social conduct do. And fortunately, a lot of them know that most people communicate through facial expressions, body-language, and reading between the lines, and that if they can’t communicate on that level, they need to make people aware of it. Hm…how could we go about that, perhaps having them wear a yellow star or a pink triangle on their lapels. Wait, those are already taken. Perhaps a boogey-green square lapel pin would suffice? If there was a notion which deserved being Goodwin’ed in this… Read more »
Anniceris: You actually stated a better worded version earlier in you comment: “a social event for people interested in sex, not a sexual event for people interested in sex” without the use of the word creep and the effects that word may have had on decent people as you said.
Great post, btw 🙂
I had to consider this dilemma in a very practical context recently. On a whim, I organised a meet-up, on Twitter, for deviant/swinger/sex-ed type Twitter people in my city. I just put the details out on Twitter, invited people to re-tweet it, and didn’t give it much more thought. Closer to the day of the event I had a couple of people (females) contact me and say they wanted to come but were worried that there’d be sleazy/creepy (males) there coming on to them – which hadn’t even really ocurred to me before that. I wanted everyone who came to… Read more »
Having poor social skills isn’t creepy in and of itself, but it can lead you to act in creepy ways without realizing it, and can prevent you from knowing something is creepy before you do it.
Wait so asking people about their genitals is creepy? SO THAT’S WHAT I’VE BEEN DOING WRONG!
Asking people about their genitals (if they didn’t talk about their genitals in the first place, and obv if you aren’t friends and you alrdy know they have a comfort level w/ it xD)
Ozy, I think both you and Clarisse (in the first comment are right), which may sound strange at first. What can bridge the apparent contradiction is two words: feel vs. are or, in other words, subjective vs. objectified reality. When someone *feels* creeped out, they have all the right to do say so as long as it’s contextually appropriate. IE, kicking a guy in the balls for clumsily saying hi at a bar is disproportional, and, well, creepy in return. On the other hand, when people are talking abstractly about what constitutes “creepy”, your suggestion of a sane person recipient… Read more »