For my first post on this blog, I wanted to, like Ozymandias, state some of the basic principles I’m working with, and explain why I’m here.
More and more, I hear people, mostly men, complaining about the unfathomable damage that being male in this society does to you, and I agree. I’m mad about misandrist TV shows and commercials, I’m mad about not being allowed to have emotions, I’m mad about a set of expectations that is impossible and contradictory and blatantly unfair. I’m mad about more things than I want to list right here. I complain about it, I listen to others complain about it, and dammit, I’m not happy with how my society polices my own gender.
I look back on all the pain and shame and unhappiness and endless bullshit that I’ve had to put up with because of what comes with being male, and I’m struck by two things. The first is how much of it there is; I could write volumes about the gendered crap I’ve had to go through, and I bet everyone reading this could do the same. The second thing that strikes me, though, is how much I never noticed it at the time. It was just how things were, how things are, how things are supposed to be. I only became able to see how damaging male gender expectations are when I became a feminist.
Feminism has spent many years and at least three waves doing the hard work on the subject of gender. Feminists have developed the verbal and conceptual vocabulary necessary to unpack and examine “how things are supposed to be”, and all the ugly assumptions that go with that. Feminist theories of privilege and gender performance work just as well when applied to men’s issues. This toolset exists, and it’s the right one for the job of addressing men’s issues.
Two problems come up when trying to implement this, though, and both are called out in the already-classic rant that engendered, so to speak, this blog. For those who missed the rant, the problems are these: Feminists tend to do a lousy job of addressing men’s issues, and Men’s Rights Activists are overwhelmingly dominated by misogynist whiners with no actual agenda. That’s an oversimplification, but not by much.
I don’t feel like addressing the MRA boys right now, but I do want to say a word to my fellow feminists. (Some would say I have no right to call myself a feminist, but some will say that about absolutely anyone calling themselves a feminist, so just roll with me for now.) I get, and I respect, that there are reasons why the feminist movement has not addressed men’s issues in any serious way. I get that they are, by and large, good reasons. I am not that guy screaming OMG EVIL FEMINISTS, I’m one of the guys pointing out that there’s a very real problem that’s hurting a lot of people, and that feminism has the tools to address that problem. That, to my mind, is all the justification one needs to do something.
I was a late convert to feminism, because, like a lot of men, my early experiences with it were quite hostile. I want to get into those experiences in greater detail later, but for now suffice it to say that I was young and clueless, the feminists I met were young and zealous, and a bad impression was made. It was not until years later that I found feminists who were willing to talk, to listen, to correct my false impressions, and generally to provide a space where I could feel welcome.
There’s a concept I learned years ago, in a post on a different subject, called a “safe landing zone”. When someone is leaving an ideology, they need to have somewhere safe and welcoming to leave to. A lot of feminist communities don’t make good landing zones for guys who are still learning the ropes of gender questioning, who might still have a lot of work to do on their own problems and assumptions. That’s fine; those communities aren’t designed for that. Thing is, what communities are? Where’s a guy to go who wants to engage with the issues facing himself and other men, but do it in a respectful and constructive way rather than just griping about all the women who won’t sleep with him?
Well… I guess now there’s here.
Daran :The rape OF WOMEN is a women’s issue. Just like corrective rape of lesbians is a lesbian issue. If you interrupted a discussion of corrective rape by saying “BUT STRAIGHT PEOPLE GET RAPED TOO” they are probably going to tell you to STFU and go away, because that is not relevant to the discussion at hand. I agree with your disagreement and I highly disagree with this statement. Violence and more specifically sexual violence, is a human business. It’s everybody business. Its everybodys duty to prevent it, not just somebody. I consider that statement ignorant and offensive. offensive toward… Read more »
ozymandias42: *sigh*. As far as I can tell, all the “methodological” criticisms of the CTS are basically just victim blaming. They all boil down to “but the men must’ve done something that meant they really, really deserved the violence” and “but they can’t prove the male victims were beaten that badly, and that makes it all OK”. Anyone making these arguments about female victims – and occasionally someone does – would get called out for victim blaming before you can say “asshole”. In keeping with this, it’s only the use of the CTS to study violence against men that receives… Read more »
Hi! Just wanted to point out that “patriarchy” isn’t (or shouldn’t be, at least) wielded exclusively against men. Nor should it be read as giving a pass to anyone identifying as women. Women are perfectly capable of upholding and reinforcing the patriachy (ironically, often from positions they are only able to occupy thanks to feminism. LOLZ). I used to be one of those women (but I am better now!). [TW for discussing rape apologia] Also, I am sad to see that the “man-hating feminist” meme is thriving in the comments. I don’t hate men. I am upset that our society… Read more »
doctor
Some aspects of ‘feminism’ or feminists do tend to have a disregard for men. So maybe its not all feigned victimhood. I think it was Kaija who used the Christian analogy in regards to how many different types of beliefs are out there. Maybe real man is not too far off on his critiques in certain regards.
Don’t Be A Real Man: I’m replying to you down here because that thread up there had gotten a little bit unruly. Semiel pretty much hit the nail on the head with what i found problematic with your blog post. While I believe it is certainly true that women don’t experience the worst and most violent of gender policing (I’m not likely to get ostracized or my ass kicked for walking down the street wearing men’s clothing or a short haircut. I am likely to be called a dyke by some rude asshole though). However, since there are so many… Read more »
Tell you what: I can see how that particular sentence of mine can be upsetting to those who have indeed had their identities questioned. I’ll gladly rephrase it right after doctormindbeam removes his list of real man requirements. Because that list flies in the face of what this blog is claiming to be. As long as it’s here, I see that as solid evidence that feminism downplays and even encourages the oppression of men and I will take it as justification for any assertion made about men and women that serves to illustrate that. Those who were unfairly dismissed are… Read more »
Give me a break. If you’re not able to move beyond concern trolling, mudslinging (“feminism downplays and even encourages the oppression of men”), feigned victimhood (“a war of the sexes in which only one side has weapons and that is not my side”), and name-calling (“ideological activists”), as well as sexism yourself (“I don’t like being called a man either. It offends me and always has (how can it not in this day and age?).”), then I think you should consider whether this is a blog you want to be commenting on.
We want to have discussions that are spirited yet respectful of individuals…we can argue over ideas and opinions, but will avoid personal attacks and slurs. As stated, all of the contributors come from different ideologies and life experiences, but we all share an interest in men’s issues, which are inevitably tied up with women’s issues because we are not from different planets but share our common humanity. I firmly believe that we have much more in common than we do differences and that common ground is a place we can build from and be more inclusive, more compassionate, and more… Read more »
@James, @Ron: This is not an explicitly feminist blog. We are not anti-feminist but we do not identify only with that ideology. We do not stop men’s rights people from posting either.
That said, a lot of and possibly all of the contributors identify as feminist, and stupid, sexist people who do not contribute rationally to the discussion will be debunked and/or mocked and/or banhammered.
What about authors who are behaving that way? Do they get scrutinized like that too? Besides, you can call anyone stupid and sexist. Just being heterosexual is, strictly spoken, a form of sexism. What about doctormindbeam’s “questioning of my desire to contribute productively here”? How am I supposed to interpret that if not as a warning before being censored? And, although my criticism of his post was harsh indeed, I did justify all of it. What really happened was that someone got upset by criticism of their work and responded by silencing the discussion. Now I don’t even know if… Read more »
We will see.
Reading the introduction of the blog-owner, I do not think, it’s a blog, where all and everything which does not fit feminism to its finest will be deleted from the very beginning on.
This is a very new blog, claiming to be willing to listen to both sides of a story.
We will see if the owner of this blog is willing to respond in a constructive way to men who do not share necessarily her opinion.
Awesome! a male feminist blog. I had high hopes for The Good Men Project but its not feminist enough and they let men’s rights people post there.
This means you are asking straight for deleting comments from MRAs regardless their content? Just because they are not feminist enough? You see, this is exactly why we need a Men’s Rights Movement, MRM-forums etc. which is totally independent from any feminist related project. Everybody has the right to speak out his/her opinion, if you agree with them or not. This includes MRAs. You like them or not does not matter. MRM-blogs and forums btw. do not delete any reasonable comment from a feminist minded poster, every opinion is welcome. And why should the GoodMenProject delete everything which is written… Read more »
If your reading of Amanda Marcotte’s posts is that she is just “complaining about men,” then your comprehension is seriously deficient.
This is a great idea, a male feminist blog!
Just wanted to say it’s great to see another male feminist blog up!
We will see if this blog will move into the direction of another male feminist blog considering the opening post of the owner of this website promising to consider seriously men’s problems.
For sure a male feminist blog cannot be considered to be ‘in the middle’ and to be open for any dialog regarding men’s rights.
Is the owner of this blog a MALE feminist? I am not sure.
Interesting discussion. One of the issue’s I have is the fact that certain terms are loaded with meaning and many times its not good for certain groups. This is blatantly obvious when words like “feminism and patriarchy” rolls off the tongue of someone who feels they have the answer to the ills of our societies. Someone tried to diffuse this by creating a more all inclusive word in regards to oppression, Kyriarchy. It may not be the answer but it could be a really good starting point. 47 yrs on this planet and when I hear the word feminist or… Read more »
“I dont want to be a “feminist” man. I want to be a human being.”
Luckily, one doesn’t have to choose between these two! 😉
And I also understand about hearing words and cringing. I feel similarly ’bout “misandrist”.
Really? Huh. It’s just the flipside of misogynist, right? I.e., a particular form of sexism.
I was trying to sincerely empathize with titfortat on that point–dictionary definitions, sure, “misandrist” makes complete sense. But because of my experience with the word–mostly because of subjecting myself to reading MRA blogs–when used on a men’s issues blog, it makes me cringe. I don’t think this cringing is entirely rational, but I do have to deal with it. I suspect that titfortat has to do similar things regarding “patriarchy”. 🙂
Yeah. I have similar word triggers, although not for feminism. (If anyone who isn’t Peter Singer starts talking about speciesism, I just know it’s going to be the sort of person who makes me want to eat animal products again for the sole purpose of spiting them.)
Ahh sure, I do understand entirely what you mean. I’d be lying if I said I didn’t flinch a little every time I heard the word “patriarchy” or the phrase “male privilege” used, although I try to gut-check myself and make sure I’m not reacting to past bad experiences instead of how they’re meant in this case.
Hopefully we can “retake” the word misandry for you so that it doesn’t have as negative of connotations! 🙂
Interesting replies, I dont ever recall using the word ‘misandrist’ or ‘misandry’ ever. Well, other than right now. As far as rational goes, that opens a whole other can. 😉
@titfortat
I didn’t mean to imply that you had used “misandrist”–I was just using an example of a word that makes me cringe because of how it’s often used, assuming (and i acknowledge I was totally assuming this) that maybe your experience with “patriarchy” has similar roots…
Jeff
Thats a good point, I would concur for sure. Thanks for the clarification.
Another space for feminist men?! Yay!
I’m not sure I agree with the assessment that “Feminists tend to do a lousy job of addressing men’s issues…” exactly, but I welcome more spaces for men to employ the toolkits that feminism provides in order to disengage from the patriarchal stuff that harms men as well as women.
Some of the posts are older, but I and some other folks did some of this work in years past, over on Feminist Allies. Some links:
http://feministallies.blogspot.com/search/label/Patriarchy%20Hurts%20Men
http://feministallies.blogspot.com/search/label/Navigating%20Feminism%20as%20a%20Man
http://feministallies.blogspot.com/search/label/Feminism%20Helps%20Men
http://feministallies.blogspot.com/search/label/Men%20Matter
http://feministallies.blogspot.com/search/label/Men%20Doing%20Feminist%20Work
I think you’ll find that we come from a diverse set of ideological (and unideological) perspectives here, but we certainly welcome feminist men, as well.
I’m curious about one thing:
Would you be willing to go into more detail on this?
Willing to go into *some* detail, but not a lot of detail. 🙂 I think it’s way too strong of a statement, as there are myriad counterexamples–“traditional” feminist blogs like Feministe! and Feministing often discuss men’s issues, for instance, and that’s not even counting blogs that are explicitly more about men and feminism like Hugo’s blog and Alas, a Blog (and, if I may say, Feminist Allies!). Outside of the blogging world, some feminists (bell hooks, anyone?) are explicit about how much feminism can help men, and how much feminism needs men. Of course “…tend to do a lousy job…”… Read more »
I think (if I might speak for Ozy here) what she was alluding to was a few things: First, while there are spaces that are accepting of men and male issues, all too often in other spaces or even those same ones, you encounter outright hostility to men’s issues being brought up, as though discussion of male issues somehow takes away from female ones. While I understand guarding against deliberate “concern trolling,” there is a difference between that and simply excluding male issues. It is wholly counterproductive to treat equality as something that can be achieved for women while excluding… Read more »
Perhaps at some point one of y’all could provide some examples of this stuff, because, aside from explicitly radfem blogs, that’s just not my general experience on feminist blogs. Of course, my experience is likely skewed, but I do read a fairly wide swath of feminist blogs, and rarely (if ever) run into folks who say things like “all men are privileged at all times” in a way that ignores the complexities of privilege (e.g. even if men are always privileged as men, they may not have straight privilege, or white privilege etc.). I would also guess, from reading a… Read more »
“men are always privileged as men”
That very sentences ignores the complexities of gender privilege.
@Daran:
Good thing that’s not what I said then, isn’t it?
Good thing I wasn’t replying to you then, isn’t it?
Ooh, excellent! I’ve only glanced at the links, but they look great.
I’m coming from basically your perspective, I think. “Feminists tend to do a lousy job of addressing men’s issues…” strikes me as too harsh, and I think that any real men’s movement has to come from a feminist perspective. I’m definitely on the ideological extreme, here, but hopefully you’ll find a few of us talking about the same things you are.
Definitely following your blog, either way.
Semiel: I think that any real men’s movement has to come from a feminist perspective. I’m definitely on the ideological extreme… —– So you think, men should not be allowed to show up with any other opinion which fits them better, because always they have to consider feminist interest first? I think rather differently, any REAL men’s rights movement MUST come up without any feminist perspective in mind at all. Otherwise you cannot call it an independent men’s rights movement. It would be a feminist movement which is willing to consider – beside their own feminist agenda – also men’s… Read more »
Feminism isn’t a “team”, it’s a perspective. Feminism isn’t “always help women first!”, it’s “here are a bunch of great book, articles, words, theories, and ideas with which to think about/critique gender roles”.
If you mean something else by “feminism”, then we’re talking about different things.
I like that there are a mix of ideas here–hopefully that engenders some good discussions; it will certainly (and has) bring out the strongly-opinionated nay-sayers from every corner, but it’s also where a lot of good work can get done.
Thanks for the links! Some good reading there; I look forward to sinking my teeth into it.
As to your disagreement with my phrasing, you most probably have a point. It has been my experience, though, and that of other men I know, that a lot of feminist communities simply aren’t fertile ground for these kind of discussions. As I say, there’s good reasons for that, but I do see a need for a place that’s a little more 101-friendly and focused on gender issues affecting men.
“As I say, there’s good reasons for that, but I do see a need for a place that’s a little more 101-friendly and focused on gender issues affecting men.”
In complete agreement! I’m digging this space so far, and grateful to all y’all for creating it, even though there are many slings and arrows from various quarters…
A place for the people in the middle….
Interesting statement. I wonder what this should really mean.
So far I do not see much which might be supportive for men, maybe you can explain.
Well, we will see to where this blog goes.
“In the middle” implies there are two sides which are in opposition. There aren’t. There’s just people dealing with the fucked-up things society does with gender. These things aren’t evenly distributed, they aren’t symmetrical, they aren’t fair or even remotely sensible, and we are all getting screwed over in one way or another. So if you’re looking for something that supports your “side” instead of another “side”, look elsewhere.
@Noah Brand, your own words in the OP: …..Men’s Rights Activists are overwhelmingly dominated by misogynist whiners with no actual agenda. …..I don’t feel like addressing the MRA boys right now, but I do want to say a word to my fellow feminists. —– If this is your own version about ‘in the middle’ ….. You are right if you say, people are dealing with the fucked-up things society does with gender. However different people have different needs and therefore we need different advocacy groups, some will promote feminism, others will support men’s rights. There is no question about that… Read more »
(Full disclosure: I personally am non-religious and have a great distrust of organized religion but I do acknowledge the many examples of individual people and some groups with religious beliefs who are walking the talk and taking action to “love thy neighbor”, hence my analogy. Most of us are intelligent enough and familiar enough with critical thinking to be able to distinguish shade of gray and not just black and white).
I’m going to use my stock analogy here and point out that feminism is like Christianity…there are 64,000 kinds and some of them suck. Just because Fred Phelps’ Westboro Baptist Church exists does not negate the many other kinds of Christians who are practicing compassion and forgiveness and lending a helping hand instead of advocating for bigotry, hate, and judgementalism. When someone says, “I’m a feminist” or “I’m a Christian”, a good place to start is to ask (or read to find out) “So what do you believe?” instead of assuming from the worst examples. The extremists on any side… Read more »
noahbrand: Feminist theories of privilege and gender performance work just as well when applied to men’s issues. This toolset exists, and it’s the right one for the job of addressing men’s issues. —– I do not agree to your statement above. Feminist organizations are acting as advocacy groups which benefit in general women, and let me say, not even all women but some certain groups of women only. – In case of a controversy they will always act supportive to the female, never to the male. I do not know about a single case where feminists give priority to a… Read more »
““What about teh menz” Is a meme generally used to describe derailing arguments/comments in a discussion that is dealing mainly with women’s issues and trying to turn it into men’s issues. The problem with this is, of course, that there are very few places where MEN’S issues are talked about at length from a feminist or gender egalitarian perspective. That’s what we’re trying to be. And so we’re co-opting a phrase that is often said with derision or frustration and using it seriously, kind of like a feminist blog using “Bitch” in the title.” Ok this is what I talking… Read more »
@Sigil: Let me make this very simple for you.
Thanks.
The rape OF WOMEN is a women’s issue. Just like corrective rape of lesbians is a lesbian issue. If you interrupted a discussion of corrective rape by saying “BUT STRAIGHT PEOPLE GET RAPED TOO” they are probably going to tell you to STFU and go away, because that is not relevant to the discussion at hand.
The rape OF MEN is a men’s issue, which is part of the reason we created this space.
Ozy In my experience with feminists, “what about teh menz” is a taunt leveled at under serviced, discriminated against and marginalized abuse victims. Shaksville cannot provide one citation for the claim that educating feminists about rape and abuse not being gendered is really a ploy to derail women’s issues and making them about men. The issues of rape in reality isn’t a group politics thing, like it is for many feminists. Its more complicated than that. For example, woman sexually abuses or rapes or in some way abuses a young boy, young boy has increased chance of wanting to hurt… Read more »
“Its a human problem, it shouldn’t be for group politics or slandering other groups.”
Our use of “what about teh menz” is tongue-in-cheek, because men do matter, and this blog is about men. We’re reclaiming the “WATM” phrase, if you will, and simultaneously throwing it back in any feminist’s face who would use it as a slight.
Doctormindbeam
Ok but, I see a variation of “what about teh menz” loz” meme is already common here – “mra’s are whiners”, “mens rights is about complaining about not getting laid” etc, just inserted into every piece so far, all these memes are the same thing from the same source, feminists trying to dismiss and invalidate men’s issues.
Also, the blog is overwhelmingly linked to sites about women’s advocacy, that publish misandry and are populated by the very people that gleeful do the “what about teh menz dance”.
I see you have a lot of problems with this blog and/or these people. What, in your mind, *would* a good blog look like? What are your axioms? I ask, because the contributors are all here because we want a good space that’s *not* full of misandry (but without any misogyny, either). What do you need to see in order to feel that a space is not anti-male? If you have specific issues you’d like to see covered, an example would help clarify what you’re looking for, and might even lead to a further post topic. I’m asking these questions… Read more »
Hi. I’ve already given my reasoning. A link to one of the most misandrist and offensive PSA’s out there, “men can stop rape” in the side bar is not contributing to a positive space for men. NOMAS, are well known for publishing misandry and if you go to their site, they are affiliated with NOW which is hostile to fathers rights and pro gender apartheid for abuse victims in services and law, the laws that NOW has put in place cause a lot of pain and are generating many of the problems that the mens movement has mobilized to address.… Read more »
plus a front for taking cheap shots and the mens movement.
You’re opposed to NOW? Um… I mean… wow.
My logic for the inclusion of NOMAS and MCSR is to acknowledge the major groups currently in the feminist movement working on men’s issues. If you have an example of something misandric that either group has done or said, with link, post it here and I would be happy to take either down.
The rape OF WOMEN is a women’s issue. Just like corrective rape of lesbians is a lesbian issue. If you interrupted a discussion of corrective rape by saying “BUT STRAIGHT PEOPLE GET RAPED TOO” they are probably going to tell you to STFU and go away, because that is not relevant to the discussion at hand. I don’t agree that this is a fair analogy. The discourse around rape isn’t so focussed upon gay victims that straight victims are effectively erased. But the discourse around rape is so focussed upon female victims that male victims are erased. The rape OF… Read more »
Sigil; God help me, I approved your first comment. Please don’t make me regret it. I didn’t approve the others because they were bordering on spammy. If you want to combine them into a new post, be my guest. “What about teh menz” Is a meme generally used to describe derailing arguments/comments in a discussion that is dealing mainly with women’s issues and trying to turn it into men’s issues. The problem with this is, of course, that there are very few places where MEN’S issues are talked about at length from a feminist or gender egalitarian perspective. That’s what… Read more »
Thanks for the feedback Shora, you mentioned two things that were problematic with my post. How would you have me include transgender people into a post like that? Also please note I wasn’t really talking about gender as I was talking about sex. And as for including women, I think that one should be able to raise issues that specifically affect men legitimately without the compulsory addressing of women’s issues. After all, we take for granted to be able to talk exclusively about women’s issues without being criticized about leaving out men, so in the interest of sexual equality, the… Read more »
Well, that’s just it. Part of the founding ethos of this blog is that discussing just women’s issues, as most feminist spaces are inclined to do, tends to erase or minimize men’s issues. This is about having a space to discuss men’s issues without having to feel like they’re somehow in opposition to women’s issues, and to recognize that even using separate terms for gender issues is misleading. (Okay, that’s my read on what this blog is about; other contributors might think of it differently.) It’s a tricky situation; clearly you’re a thoughtful dude, and I’m sure you’re aware that… Read more »
This is about having a space to discuss men’s issues without having to feel like they’re somehow in opposition to women’s issues, and to recognize that even using separate terms for gender issues is misleading. This. In short, this is a blog about men’s issues. It can also discuss women’s issues, particularly when they intersect with men’s issues (which should be frequent). But it is predominantly a space to discuss men’s issues. Just because women’s issues aren’t mentioned all the time doesn’t mean they don’t matter. It just means they’re not the focus of this blog. There are plenty of… Read more »
Yes, this. There’s such a different in tone and utility between “Hey, we’re gonna go over here and talk about men’s issues for a while, please feel free to join us,” vs. “Enough about you broads.”
If we took this out of gender it would be a lot more obvious: who, with a straight face, would say “Black people have done a horrible job of addressing white people’s issues when talking about racism” or “Black people need to create a safe space for white people coming out of racism”?
It’s not a matter of “including” either group, it’s a matter of not saying things that are directly inaccurate and erasing. Re:women. You say that “if you’re a human female, you’ve probably never been in the situation where you felt you had to prove that you’re a woman. Also, you probably don’t think that you ever will have to prove it.” This is incorrect. Women also face gender policing, though it’s generally less violent than men face. To better reflect the experiences of women, you ought to just take this section out. It’s not that we want you to address… Read more »
Sorry but I do not agree. First, the statement that women are not question for being real women in any frequency is plain and simply the truth. That is NOT saying they don’t have other gender policing. But THIS particular kind is very rare, rare enough to justify calling it a men’s issue. “e: trans people. You say that, in order to be a real man, “You must have a Y chromosome.” This is also incorrect. Trans men exist, and they are real men. In order to avoid erasing trans people, you ought to remove this sentence and similar sentences.… Read more »
You’ve never heard someone say to a woman, “You’re such a man” or something similar? Women have to prove that they are real women all the time. Google search “real woman” if you don’t believe me. A big part of being a responsible social justice activist is realizing that your own problems are not the only ones in the world. On trans people: If you want to make the distinction between sex and gender (and you believe there’s something like biological sex, which not everyone does), then “male” is the word for the sex, and “man” is the word for… Read more »
“You’ve never heard someone say to a woman, “You’re such a man” or something similar? Women have to prove that they are real women all the time.” I’ve heard it but it’s not the same as being told you’re not a real woman. That was specifically what I was saying though. I’ve also often heard that said non critically, while the “you’re not a real man” is always used negatively. “A big part of being a responsible social justice activist is realizing that your own problems are not the only ones in the world.” Let’s cut the patronizing lecturing tone,… Read more »
“First, the statement that women are not question for being real women in any frequency is plain and simply the truth.” I understand quite well how you’d have that impression. It is, however, a false impression. Here’s one personal account of exactly that going on in a woman’s life, for example: http://pervocracy.blogspot.com/2011/05/prove-it.html I think you’re right that it manifests differently for men than for women, but my personal rule of thumb is not to state what other people’s experiences are, but rather to listen. So yeah, you’re correct that that’s a serious issue for men, and one I personally wrestle… Read more »
I would like to raise my hand as a woman who has been called not a real woman, and has also had her friends gender-policed as such.
Just for reminders, I said: “if you’re a human female, you’ve probably never been in the situation where you felt you had to prove that you’re a woman.” Now why don’t we just settle this by surveying a cross section of women (not just feminists) and see what they answer? My statement above is basically that such a survey would result in the majority of women answering “no, I never felt I had to prove that I’m female”. The part I might want to change is that I could add that this is after puberty. Haven’t decided on that yet.… Read more »
And while we’re at it, if you don’t believe me that the “real man” or “real woman” demand is a specific issue that affects men a lot more than women, then consider this: In this very blog which declares itself as a blog specifically about men’s issues, as one of the first posts, we get a list of what makes a real man and it is a patriarchal as ever (and misogynist too since it implies that women are none of those). Talk about starting off on the wrong foot. If that can happen HERE, then the epidemic is greater… Read more »
If you really believe this, you badly misread it.
To be blunt, I question your desire to contribute productively here. Please limit your conversation to considerate constructive discussion instead of name-calling and mud-slinging.
I will also add that my “womanliness” has been called into question as well, many times over. Don’t want to have kids? “You must be a damaged person…a real woman wants babies.” Would rather watch hockey than go shoe shopping? “What are you, some kind of lesbian?” Like to argue politics and drink beer and burp loudly and laugh racously with my friends? “Why are are you trying to be a man?” It’s just another version of the same crap that men get and NONE of us should have to put up with it. That’s what we’re saying on this… Read more »
“What about teh mens” is a meme that’s used by feminists to celebrate and ridicule men that are in pain. A lot of people find that very offensive. You have been quite dishonest by claiming that his space is the only space to discuss male issues “in a respectful and constructive way rather than just griping about all the women who won’t sleep with him”. This is your way of saying that father rights, the rights of male victims of female pedophiles and everything else the men’s movement stands for is invalid. So you are openly hostile to fathers rights,… Read more »
Sigil, has anyone on this blog actually mentioned anything about the CTS? I know I’ve said “it’s methodologically unsound,” was shown some papers that suggested that it might not be and have agreed to do further research. (Expect a post on the topic in the next couple weeks.) No one else, I think, has even mentioned it ever. Also, we are not hostile to fathers’ rights and certainly not to male survivors of domestic violence. Every mention of fathers’ rights or male survivors on this blog has been positive. We even have Fathers & Families and Safe For All on… Read more »
Ozy
You don’t understand that the feminist lies about CTS are inherently misandrist and exist only to create – more misandry and gender apartheid in services ie. hostility to male survivors.
As for doing research, why don’t you access the domestic violence research that’s already there?
Yes. That was what I meant by doing research.
Ok well why don’t you use the body of research that the men’s movement uses, which is basically all of the independent research?
Also, you have already been given a paper or two explaining that the “serious problems” with CTS is really just unsubstantiated bullshit based in ideological beliefs rather than evidence.
Alos, why have you excluded links to the mens movement and included links to some very misandrist sources, eg – men can stop rape (rapists male and female rape, not men in general) and NOMAS?
Oh, it’s you again. Dude who called me a cunt. I think that “I will look into it and have an answer in a few weeks” is very generous, actually. You have some papers; my other sources have some papers; I have to figure out who has the preponderance of evidence. Fair enough? We have links to Fathers & Families and the National Coalition for Men, two prominent men’s rights organizations; in addition, we have several groups that, while they do not identify as men’s rights groups, work on issues of concern to men– The Innocence Project (false rape accusations),… Read more »
A group that conflates men and rape, is not a good-faith contribute. Its a political hate group masquerading as PSA. If you want to have a sincere bash at this I think you need to be excluding extremists on both sides and including moderates on both sides. The blog roll should reflect the egalitarian and masculinist nature of the blog. The present blog roll selection suggests a double standard and ideological bias, its overwhelming feminist and the organisations one has nothing up on domestic violence resources for men. Warren Farrell and Pille Billing as well as a host of other… Read more »
Safe for All is one of the most repected groups dealing with domestic violence against men and LGBT people.
We have contributors that run both r/genderegalitarian and (iirc) r/feminism, which is why they are on there.
We are feminist. We are also masculist. Neither gender should be forced to constrain to artificial and limiting gender roles.
“Feminist theories of privilege and gender performance work just as well when applied to men’s issues.” What you forgot to mention is that feminists don’t really talk about “ theories of privilege”, they talk about theories of MALE privilege thereby enforcing an “it’s men’s fault” perspective. That insistence on “male privilege” shuts down any real and open discussion about men’s for men. I’m interested to see where this blog goes. You have some good ideas but I’m skeptical. You see, most MRA’s started off as feminists and I’m wondering quite how committed you will become. Feminists are sooner or later… Read more »
There are feminists who aren’t egalitarians in the same way there are MRAs who aren’t egalitarians. I don’t think it’s helpful to color either movement in the way you did here.
Equality is not zero sum. Please read our 101 section.
Yes! “Equality is not zero-sum!” I’m making a meme…
“Equality is not a zero sum game” is already a feminist meme, its frequently used to shut down debates with mens rights people.
MRA – Makes valid point.
Feminist – Equality is not a zero sum game (as if someone was suggesting that it was)
With all respect, there are a bunch of feminists basically standing right here, myself included, and none of us believe what you seem to think feminists believe. It is not, in my view, about finding a middle ground between sides; it’s about recognizing there aren’t two different sides, and there never were.
Looking at your writing, I think you might enjoy this, which makes that point rather more specifically: http://www.crimethinc.com/tools/posters/gender_subversion_front.pdf
Yes to the landing zone thing. Feminist blogs can be a minefield for the male n00b, particularly if he hasn’t worked through the arguments and discussions and synthesized it all. The new guys need hand-holding. They may have some things to work through before being exposed to a Pandagon or Tiger Beatdown.
I’ve been at this thing for years and still make errors and assumptions and jump to conclusions and have baggage to offload.
Precisely. If I hadn’t found my way to very friendly and welcoming feminist communities more or less by accident, it would have taken me a lot longer to get it. I still look back on a few noob comments of mine and cringe, but don’t we all?
The potential danger of a landing zone is that of rehashing old arguments again and again. And whether the bloggers here will get tired of it. A lot of feminist blogs *have* gotten tired of this (quite understandably, I may add) and have pro forma Feminist 101 posts that they link to. This is a way of dealing with the same old bloody arguments day after day. I worry whether this place will resort to the same. The reason I say this is that because some men really DO need to work through the arguments. They have to come in,… Read more »
“…The *educative* value of a good kicking…” was what I meant to say.
I personally have an endless patience for educating newbies, but I’m not so sure about the rest of the blog…
“particularly if he hasn’t worked through the arguments and discussions and synthesized it all” … or learned to separate the feminists in practice from the “feminists” in name only sometimes found lurking in company!
And yes, nice piece here.
Yeah, those “scotsmen” in name only sure do suck.
I like this post a lot, particularly the bit about landing zones. Having done the very religious-conservative to hedonistic atheist thing, there were a lot of intermediate steps along the way, so I never had to go *too* far out of my comfort zone.