A response by Amelia Harnish to a controversial post about rape.
Reprinted with permission from The Miniskirt
In case you missed it, a web-site-formerly-in-our-good-graces known as The Good Men Project published this piece called “Nice Guys Commit Rape, Too”, which also ran on XoJane.com, by Alyssa Royse.
Royse argues that rapists are rarely of the back-alley variety (Yup, good point!) and tells the story of how a male friend of hers, who’s a nice guy, really, penetrated a mutual female friend while she was sleeping and that this was without a doubt rape. (Yes, exactly!) But then it all falls apart when Royse contends this guy is only an accidental rapist, and that it’s not his fault but society’s fault that he didn’t know a sleeping woman, by definition, cannot consent to sex.
As many other high-profile bloggers and writers have already pointed out, this is an example of one of the most sinister rape myths, which is that rapists commit their crimes not because they’re truly predators but because they’re just confused about what consent means. In fact, research shows that rapists and abusers on the whole really do know what they’re doing, and they use rape culture—society’s willingness to blame the victim and believe that the rapist just thought she wanted it—to keep getting away with rape.
While I actually appreciate Royse’s commentary about the inexcusable messages we send about sex to young people—for example, that being aggressive is a justifiable way to go about getting sex and if a girl says no she really means yes—the rapist she’s trying to use as an example here is someone who started having sex with a sleeping person. Period.
This is why feminists say rape is about control. It’s not just about the violent, predatory need for control that we associate with back alley rapists, rape is also about the victim’s lack of control. And that’s the kind of thing we do need to talk about (even though feminists have been explaining this forever) because we need people to understand that rape is rape whether your rapist is a violent stranger or a seemingly “nice guy” who thinks acting upon you in your sleep is a-okay.
Royse’s attempt at analysis of this issue is this:
To a large degree, my friend thought he was doing what was expected. And while he was wrong, weeks of flirting, provocative dancing and intimate innuendo led him to believe that sex was the logical conclusion of their social intercourse. Many people watching it unfold would have thought that, too.
Don’t like ads? Become a supporter and enjoy The Good Men Project ad freeOf course they would all be wrong. But if something walks like a fuck and talks like fuck, at what point are we supposed to understand that it’s not a fuck? Our binary language of “yes means yes” and “no means no” doesn’t address the entire spectrum of both spoken language and body language, which mean different things to different people.
I would love for “no means no” to work, but it doesn’t.
I mean what in the actual f*ck, you guys. In what universe does sleeping count as body language at all, much less body language that says, “put your penis in my vagina”?
“No means No” and “Yes means Yes” does work, but only when the person saying “No” or “Yes” actually gets a chance to say it. Sex means there are two active, consenting participants. If I were a man, I would be disgusted and offended by the assertion that men aren’t smart enough to figure out that sleeping means at best, “maybe later, but definitely not right now.”
If Royse and The Good Men Project really wanted to encourage dialogue about why rape happens and actually do something about stopping it, if they really thought men were confused about this specific thing, they should have just posted a PSA on their site. Something like, in case you didn’t get the memo, Good Men out there: Sleeping means No. Sleeping means wake her up and ask. If she’s laying there with her eyes closed, that means tap her on the shoulder and ask, “Wanna have sex?” And if she says no, she means no. If she says yes, by all means, proceed. Instead, they chose to continue the pattern of dismissal, minimization and myth that allows rape to continue. Way to be good, GMP.
Ps–In case you need a reminder that FACT: Most men are not rapists, and many men do want to help us stop it, go check out Men Can Stop Rape.
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58 Comments on "Attn: Sleeping Means No"
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In this mess, what stands out the most to me is the detailed description about what happened during the weeks leading up to the “event”, and in contrast the total lack of information about what happened that night just prior to her/them undressing/going to bed/falling asleep.
“But then it all falls apart when Royse contends this guy is only an accidental rapist, and that it’s not his fault but society’s fault that he didn’t know a sleeping woman, by definition, cannot consent to sex.”
She said this where, exactly, in the article?
Put it a different way: this is fucking someone who’s unconscious. Why is fucking someone who’s sleeping any different from doing it to someone who’s passed out or in a coma or dead?
Are there challenges you can give a person when drunk to ensure they are coherent and aren’t blackout? Eg would blackout mean they won’t remember something you say 30 seconds before? So a challenge could be to rattle off a few words or a maths problem and then get the answer a minute later to ensure they are actively storing memories? The idea of blackout drunk sounds pretty scary if it’s hard to notice, how can someone be sure their partner isn’t black-out drunk?
“I don’t know if you’re quoting or paraphrasing about Alyssa saying, “A rapist is just a person who may genuinely not realize what he’s doing is rape,” but I don’t think that was her message.” – -that was a shortened paraphrase of the longer quote, but it should have had as you pointed out – the ‘the’ not an ‘a’ and yes, it loses something without the longer context.
Unless, in some rare cases, the woman has explicitly (explicitly!) communicated beforehand that it is okay while she is sleeping. No, I’ve never encountered that before, but it’s theoretically possible. It wouldn’t be rape in that particular case, but otherwise treat sleep as an inability to express consent one way or another. Someone who physically can’t say no cannot consent to saying yes.
Thank you for engaging Amelia. And thank you to Christian for seeing the point of what we are doing.
It’s about respecting that person as a person so you don’t mess with them or allow them to be messed with.
Royse is a female? Unless I am missing something?
Sorry for the nest of comments, mods – to clarify, I don’t think boundary violations of the kind mentioned above are acceptable – my point was to show that confusion on those boundaries exist too. Not being able to personally comprehend that doesn’t mean you get to accuse people who can of being an obstacle to progress in dealing with those boundary issues.
Doing something wrong does not necessarily mean confusion about knowing whether or not the act is wrong. In fact the evidence is pretty clear on the fact that rape is a very deliberate act that one rarely trips onto. And explaining why something is wrong is a discussion in of itself. That’s a wrong thing to do, here’s why. Boom, there’s a discussion that enlightens.
Thank you Ed. I’ve been reading this website for a little while and am often appalled by some of the misogynist comments that are allowed. I don’t know how GMP actually defines what a good man is (I’m sure it is definitely not one who thinks it is okay to have sex with a sleeping woman) but I am very happy to have come across your logic and good sense as I was beginning to wonder if there actually were any good men ready this site.
@ John Anderson
“One problem with that thinking is that it assumes that everyone has the same level of education / baseline experiences and learns in the same way…”
A very important point here, (not just for this discussion, but for life) often overlooked, seldom articulated. Thanks.
I think it’s sort of ironic that all of these bloggers from around the blogosphere are saying “GMP is bad. They’re rape apologists. This is how rape actually happens. If the GMP wanted to start a conversation about how rape happens they should do X and Y.” The whole time, they fail to realize that they’re participating in a conversation about how rape happens.
Sometimes, a conversation is started by presenting some reprehensible people and ideas.
Well done, GMP. Glad to be a commenter/contributor/reader.
Thanks for pointing that out Christian.
It seems like people are in such a mad rush to pass judgement that they don’t even notice that stuff. Makes me wonder if they are in it for change or for popularity points or something.
In what world would you need to have a discussion about that particular situation she just described…?
In a world where people are still obviously getting it wrong.
I can agree with that Julie. What I’m trying to get at is if the phrases and full stop declarations aren’t working then what is so wrong about trying to get some sort of conversation going, even if it doesn’t solve the crime once and for all?
For me the real question is still, why would that person be satisfied with sex gotten through coercion, whining, nagging, pushing…why would a person be satisfied with physical or emotional exchange in which the other person really didn’t want it but was doing it to sate the other’s irritation.
Because they think that that is how sex is supposed to go (transactional model)?
Because they think that such sex is the only sex that they are able to have (as in “I am so undesirable that this is my only option for sex.”)
That may be true. And I suspect there are more and more partners deciding that no, that isn’t the way it is supposed to go and saying no, thus the nagging. It’s a bad model.