A response by Amelia Harnish to a controversial post about rape.
Reprinted with permission from The Miniskirt
In case you missed it, a web-site-formerly-in-our-good-graces known as The Good Men Project published this piece called “Nice Guys Commit Rape, Too”, which also ran on XoJane.com, by Alyssa Royse.
Royse argues that rapists are rarely of the back-alley variety (Yup, good point!) and tells the story of how a male friend of hers, who’s a nice guy, really, penetrated a mutual female friend while she was sleeping and that this was without a doubt rape. (Yes, exactly!) But then it all falls apart when Royse contends this guy is only an accidental rapist, and that it’s not his fault but society’s fault that he didn’t know a sleeping woman, by definition, cannot consent to sex.
As many other high-profile bloggers and writers have already pointed out, this is an example of one of the most sinister rape myths, which is that rapists commit their crimes not because they’re truly predators but because they’re just confused about what consent means. In fact, research shows that rapists and abusers on the whole really do know what they’re doing, and they use rape culture—society’s willingness to blame the victim and believe that the rapist just thought she wanted it—to keep getting away with rape.
While I actually appreciate Royse’s commentary about the inexcusable messages we send about sex to young people—for example, that being aggressive is a justifiable way to go about getting sex and if a girl says no she really means yes—the rapist she’s trying to use as an example here is someone who started having sex with a sleeping person. Period.
This is why feminists say rape is about control. It’s not just about the violent, predatory need for control that we associate with back alley rapists, rape is also about the victim’s lack of control. And that’s the kind of thing we do need to talk about (even though feminists have been explaining this forever) because we need people to understand that rape is rape whether your rapist is a violent stranger or a seemingly “nice guy” who thinks acting upon you in your sleep is a-okay.
Royse’s attempt at analysis of this issue is this:
To a large degree, my friend thought he was doing what was expected. And while he was wrong, weeks of flirting, provocative dancing and intimate innuendo led him to believe that sex was the logical conclusion of their social intercourse. Many people watching it unfold would have thought that, too.
Of course they would all be wrong. But if something walks like a fuck and talks like fuck, at what point are we supposed to understand that it’s not a fuck? Our binary language of “yes means yes” and “no means no” doesn’t address the entire spectrum of both spoken language and body language, which mean different things to different people.
Don’t like ads? Become a supporter and enjoy The Good Men Project ad freeI would love for “no means no” to work, but it doesn’t.
I mean what in the actual f*ck, you guys. In what universe does sleeping count as body language at all, much less body language that says, “put your penis in my vagina”?
“No means No” and “Yes means Yes” does work, but only when the person saying “No” or “Yes” actually gets a chance to say it. Sex means there are two active, consenting participants. If I were a man, I would be disgusted and offended by the assertion that men aren’t smart enough to figure out that sleeping means at best, “maybe later, but definitely not right now.”
If Royse and The Good Men Project really wanted to encourage dialogue about why rape happens and actually do something about stopping it, if they really thought men were confused about this specific thing, they should have just posted a PSA on their site. Something like, in case you didn’t get the memo, Good Men out there: Sleeping means No. Sleeping means wake her up and ask. If she’s laying there with her eyes closed, that means tap her on the shoulder and ask, “Wanna have sex?” And if she says no, she means no. If she says yes, by all means, proceed. Instead, they chose to continue the pattern of dismissal, minimization and myth that allows rape to continue. Way to be good, GMP.
Ps–In case you need a reminder that FACT: Most men are not rapists, and many men do want to help us stop it, go check out Men Can Stop Rape.
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In this mess, what stands out the most to me is the detailed description about what happened during the weeks leading up to the “event”, and in contrast the total lack of information about what happened that night just prior to her/them undressing/going to bed/falling asleep.
I follow so many of these conversations, and the biggest elephant in the room continues to be the concept of mens rea. Royce’s article, I believe unintentionally, brought forth a focus on the “guilty mind” (or, better yet the “guilty intent”) which seems to have been exorcised from the discourse, of late. Sometimes I feel like I’m the only person who sees a very important distinction between engaging in potentially non-consensual sexual behavior with an intent to fraud or “obtain” sex and encounters which were simply deficient in consent overall. We don’t know what actually happened in the case brought… Read more »
“But then it all falls apart when Royse contends this guy is only an accidental rapist, and that it’s not his fault but society’s fault that he didn’t know a sleeping woman, by definition, cannot consent to sex.”
She said this where, exactly, in the article?
I mean what in the actual f*ck, you guys. In what universe does sleeping count as body language at all, much less body language that says, “put your penis in my vagina”? Oh, I don’t know – one where the sleeping person moves their arm in a “let’s have sex”-way in their sleep? Then all bets are off and according to a handful of feminist commenters over at Feministe then the person waking up to their partner having sex with them is an asshole for being upset. At least that’s the case when the victim (or rather the gas-lighting abuser… Read more »
The number of feminist who talks in black and white about male perpetrators and in grey-scales about female perpetrators both online and in academia do go a long way in discrediting that movement for me as a male victim. That’s a good summation of what happens when talking about victims of different genders. Mind you it’s not just feminists that do this. For some reason we are supposed to take rape and violence against women very seriously while at the same time still believing that rape and violence against men is “different”. I’ll tell you what I think it is.… Read more »
Put it a different way: this is fucking someone who’s unconscious. Why is fucking someone who’s sleeping any different from doing it to someone who’s passed out or in a coma or dead?
I can’t quite put my finger on it, but I’m guessing whatever that difference is, it’s also why we don’t put people in a hospital or coffin every time they fall asleep. More seriously, though, I think consciousness is a spectrum where the boundaries aren’t always as clear as those between full awake and dead. In the Royse story, much of the commentary has likened sleep to being in a coma, leaving out more ambiguous states like sleep-walkers, sleep-talkers, or blacked out, which has the appearance of being conscious, but the lack of memory afterward makes it seem as though… Read more »
Are there challenges you can give a person when drunk to ensure they are coherent and aren’t blackout? Eg would blackout mean they won’t remember something you say 30 seconds before? So a challenge could be to rattle off a few words or a maths problem and then get the answer a minute later to ensure they are actively storing memories? The idea of blackout drunk sounds pretty scary if it’s hard to notice, how can someone be sure their partner isn’t black-out drunk?
It comes down to the fact that consent can’t really be granted ex post facto. All the talk about ‘signals’ in Alyssa’s original article seems like blue smoke and mirrors- she wrote: “My friend and this woman fell asleep together. And by all accounts, when she woke up, he was penetrating her.” Not a lot of grey area there: that sounds like a very clear cut example of a rape. So it seems almost absurd or patronizing that in the same article the writer should say “A rapist is just a person who may genuinely not realize that what he’s… Read more »
…she wrote: “My friend and this woman fell asleep together. And by all accounts, when she woke up, he was penetrating her.” Not a lot of grey area there: that sounds like a very clear cut example of a rape Thank you for quoting the part that leads you to believe Alyssa’s friend knew she was asleep when he penetrated her, because that is exactly the gray area I have raised several times now, without any of the “He knew!” crowd addressing it head on. If the guy knew she was asleep, then I agree, there’s no gray about whether… Read more »
“I don’t know if you’re quoting or paraphrasing about Alyssa saying, “A rapist is just a person who may genuinely not realize what he’s doing is rape,” but I don’t think that was her message.” – -that was a shortened paraphrase of the longer quote, but it should have had as you pointed out – the ‘the’ not an ‘a’ and yes, it loses something without the longer context.
“The point of splitting these hairs isn’t to excuse or defend rapists, it’s to raise the alarm for all those “good” people out there reading this, who are so sure and feel safe that they would never rape because they know rape is wrong, that — Holy Shit! Even people like that can end up raping! It’s a message that refuses the easy way out of othering rapists by making them obvious monsters, that we all know we aren’t like. It’s saying it’s great to know and believe with all your heart that rape is wrong, but maybe you need… Read more »
Yes to the internally reflective part. Regarding the fear, I’m not sure I understand what you think “saming” leads to, but I don’t see how it follows that if you’re on guard about yourself, it makes you more fearful of others. It seems to me that the “othering” approach already makes one more suspicious of others, as famously described in “Schrodinger’s Rapist”. As for fears of races, classes, genders, etc., those also tend to be “othering” types of fears of people who are unlike you in any of those categories, as opposed to, “I am a white, middle-class man, therefore… Read more »
Trying to wrap my head around many ideas- This is a quote from one of the comments from another article discussing the GMP rape controversy ( http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/political-animal-a/2012_12/news_flash_good_men_do_not_com041961.php ) that probably better illustrates my concerns about too much ‘sameness’: “…asserting that only evil people rape, that otherwise normal well-intentioned men don’t rape, is unfortunately contributing to the problem, not the solution. Rapists are not, for the most part, exotic. They’re people we all know. Every one of us knows, and likely is related to, a rapist. That’s the reality. If you find it more comfortable to imagine that all rapists are people you’d never… Read more »
I either disagree, or don’t understand, because it seems to me like you take a more black/white position about people being either good or bad, and argue that such a position is less reductionist and less likely to lead to discrimination based on the normative actions of a subset of people. I think the reverse is true, that such black/white thinking makes us *more* likely to discriminate (from labeling people one or the other), and more likely to engage in abhorrent behavior due to overconfidence that we don’t have to monitor our own behavior because we’re already in the “good”… Read more »
I looked up the quote in question in Royse’s original piece. In the portion you misquoted, she wrote: …More often than not, rape happens amongst people who know each other, and the rapist is not someone carrying a villainous cloak and look of ill intent. The rapist is just a person who may genuinely not realize that what he’s doing is rape. My friend, for instance, was genuinely unsure, which was why he called me… So, first of all, you changed the article from definite to indefinite – “the” to “a”. Second you removed the context that showed it flowing… Read more »
“About one of your other points…I agree consent can’t be granted after the fact if it wasn’t there to begin with. Do you agree consent can’t be rescinded after the fact, either? (I don’t mean a change of mind while it’s going on, which still must be respected; I’m talking about consent that was freely given from beginning to end of a sex act, but later regretted.)” My initial instinct would be that ‘no, consent cannot be rescinded after the fact’ (I assume, of course, this is based on consent that was given by a person of sound mind and… Read more »
My initial instinct would be that ‘no, consent cannot be rescinded after the fact’ (I assume, of course, this is based on consent that was given by a person of sound mind and body, in a situation devoid of forceable mental or physical coercion, etc) I’m assuming the same thing, which is why I added “freely given” just to be clear. Coerced consent wouldn’t be real consent, just like “agreeing” to hand over your wallet at gunpoint is not a donation. It looks like we agree that after the fact, consent can neither be added when it wasn’t there at… Read more »
I think we’re on the same wavelength here- and you’ve explored in detail the implications of the logic, and the questions raised, particularly where alcohol is concerned: The point is very well taken about keeping in mind the significant difference between judgment that may be impaired, and being impaired to the point of not being able to make a judgement. For my thinking (this is less of an answer to your questions, than walking myself through my own logic here) if could use the example of drinking and driving – For drinking and driving, from a legal standpoint (as I understand… Read more »
Unless, in some rare cases, the woman has explicitly (explicitly!) communicated beforehand that it is okay while she is sleeping. No, I’ve never encountered that before, but it’s theoretically possible. It wouldn’t be rape in that particular case, but otherwise treat sleep as an inability to express consent one way or another. Someone who physically can’t say no cannot consent to saying yes.
As many other high-profile bloggers and writers have already pointed out, this is an example of one of the most sinister rape myths, which is that rapists commit their crimes not because they’re truly predators but because they’re just confused about what consent means. In fact, research shows that rapists and abusers on the whole really do know what they’re doing, and they use rape culture—society’s willingness to blame the victim and believe that the rapist just thought she wanted it—to keep getting away with rape.” Does this mean some are actually clueless or unaware what they are doing is… Read more »
@ Archy “Does this mean some are actually clueless or unaware what they are doing is rape?” My position has always been that there could be a rape without a rapist. In which case, something like this is possible. The more popular perception is that there has to be a rapist if there is a rape. Unfortunately that eliminates grey area so either she’s lying or he’s lying. If a person had no criminal intent, which includes the negligent standard, then under that standard there was no rape. In other words if everything is black and white, he was either… Read more »
I am going to ask this question yet again because NO ONE has answered it. Did the rapist actually know she was asleep??? The story said she was asleep, but didn’t say if he knew she was at the time of penetration. There was heavy use of alcohol n drugs, and a mention of falling asleep naked together. It’s rape either way but there is the chance he was under the impression she was awake, which makes the entire issue quite different from a predator to someone who has done a terrible thing without intending to. I’ve seen many many… Read more »
Thank you for engaging Amelia. And thank you to Christian for seeing the point of what we are doing.
You’re being too kind in your assessment of Royse’s commentary. He’s using bullshit to control the discussion, a kind of passive-aggressive “discourse rape”, if you will. It doesn’t matter if it’s having sex or drawing a mustache with a sharpie, or going through their emails or computer files or any number of things. what sort of person doesn’t understand, that it’s not acceptable to do anything to, or with, a sleeping person? Other than tuck them in and make sure they’re in a safe place or circumstance? The only people that might get a pass at not understanding this could… Read more »
It’s about respecting that person as a person so you don’t mess with them or allow them to be messed with.
Royse is a female? Unless I am missing something?
“You’re being too kind in your assessment of Royse’s commentary. He’s” Royse is female. Why assume otherwise, I wonder? “using bullshit to control the discussion, a kind of passive-aggressive “discourse rape”, if you will. It doesn’t matter if it’s having sex or drawing a mustache with a sharpie, or going through their emails or computer files or any number of things. what sort of person doesn’t understand, that it’s not acceptable to do anything to, or with, a sleeping person? Other than tuck them in and make sure they’re in a safe place or circumstance? The only people that might… Read more »
Sorry for the nest of comments, mods – to clarify, I don’t think boundary violations of the kind mentioned above are acceptable – my point was to show that confusion on those boundaries exist too. Not being able to personally comprehend that doesn’t mean you get to accuse people who can of being an obstacle to progress in dealing with those boundary issues.
Doing something wrong does not necessarily mean confusion about knowing whether or not the act is wrong. In fact the evidence is pretty clear on the fact that rape is a very deliberate act that one rarely trips onto. And explaining why something is wrong is a discussion in of itself. That’s a wrong thing to do, here’s why. Boom, there’s a discussion that enlightens.
Thank you Ed. I’ve been reading this website for a little while and am often appalled by some of the misogynist comments that are allowed. I don’t know how GMP actually defines what a good man is (I’m sure it is definitely not one who thinks it is okay to have sex with a sleeping woman) but I am very happy to have come across your logic and good sense as I was beginning to wonder if there actually were any good men ready this site.
One problem with that thinking is that it assumes that everyone has the same level of education / baseline experiences and learns in the same way. I used to be surprised when I encountered someone in their 20s who couldn’t write a letter. Then we hear about the number of people who drop out of school. I went on a support call once to find out why a user couldn’t log in. I got to her desk and she tells me I keep clicking and all it says is what’s this. I told her to use the left mouse button.… Read more »
@ John Anderson
“One problem with that thinking is that it assumes that everyone has the same level of education / baseline experiences and learns in the same way…”
A very important point here, (not just for this discussion, but for life) often overlooked, seldom articulated. Thanks.
I think it’s sort of ironic that all of these bloggers from around the blogosphere are saying “GMP is bad. They’re rape apologists. This is how rape actually happens. If the GMP wanted to start a conversation about how rape happens they should do X and Y.” The whole time, they fail to realize that they’re participating in a conversation about how rape happens.
Sometimes, a conversation is started by presenting some reprehensible people and ideas.
Well done, GMP. Glad to be a commenter/contributor/reader.
Thanks for pointing that out Christian.
It seems like people are in such a mad rush to pass judgement that they don’t even notice that stuff. Makes me wonder if they are in it for change or for popularity points or something.
In what world would you need to have a discussion about that particular situation she just described…?
In a world where people are still obviously getting it wrong.
There wasn’t enough detail in the interaction. People were asking questions like where the couple already naked. How intoxicated was he. Could he recognize that she was asleep. If the answer to these questions are no, not very, and yes then it was no question rape because consent was not acquired. If the answers were yes, not very, and yes then the issue might be one of revocation of consent. I still think sleeping means automatic revocation of consent, but others may disagree and think that revocation requires action, that revocation of consent can’t be passive. If the answer is… Read more »
If Royse and The Good Men Project really wanted to encourage dialogue about why rape happens and actually do something about stopping it, if they really thought men were confused about this specific thing, they should have just posted a PSA on their site. Something like, in case you didn’t get the memo, Good Men out there: Sleeping means No. Sleeping means wake her up and ask. If she’s laying there with her eyes closed, that means tap her on the shoulder and ask, “Wanna have sex?” And if she says no, she means no. If she says yes, by… Read more »
we don’t need to ruminate or “talk out” whether or not sleeping means no. Men are better than that. Good men already know if she’s sleeping, it means no. I know because I love and care about so many men, and I talk to them about this. I just mean if GMP REALLY felt like that was something that needed to be said, presenting it as a blurry line that can move depending on the situation is not the way to go about it. All it does is make it seem okay to rapists. In their minds, they read it… Read more »
Let me say thanks for taking the time to disagree in some way other than just screaming across the net the GMP supports rape and hates women. Now I wonder. All it does is make it seem okay to rapists. In their minds, they read it as “SEE, what i did was okay because I was confused.” What makes you so sure that is how everyone read those posts? I appreciate you that you want to send a message but sounds like you are trying to speak for the way rapists are thinking and thus already know what they will… Read more »
honestly, you’re right i’m not sure how rapists think exactly, or why they do what they do. If I could sit down with my rapist without having an absolute freakout, i’d probably ask him. What i do know from my own experience and from conversations and friendships i have with survivors on a regular basis is that very often, way too often, rapists don’t get reprimanded at all. And I’m not just talking about the criminal justice system getting involved because that hardly ever happens. They don’t even feel the social stigma that should come along with doing something wrong.… Read more »
Is it because rapists really don’t know that it’s wrong? No, it’s not, or at least I have a very hard time believing that because I know so many men who DO KNOW that it’s wrong to penetrate a sleeping women. But does that mean that no rapist could possibly be redeemed? The fact that the committed such a crime cements them in that position for all eternity and that’s all they will ever be? They did something horrible so there is no chance they can see what they did was wrong? And stopping it does not require a long… Read more »
do you disagree with the statement: “it is wrong to penetrate or molest a sleeping woman”? I think we can all agree that raping a sleeping woman is in fact wrong. even royse conceded that. The story “hasn’t ended” as you put it because we continue to tell men and women, subtly and not so subtly, that rape is okay sometimes in certain circumstances, like if you can get away with saying you were “confused”. rape is not okay, ever. full stop. the lack of the full stop is in fact part of the problem. if we adopted a zero-tolerance… Read more »
I would say the story haven’t ended because the crime still happens and I think it’s going to take more than just shouting lingo and phrases and declaring full stop to actually stop it from happening. do you disagree with the statement: “it is wrong to penetrate or molest a sleeping woman”? I think we can all agree that raping a sleeping woman is in fact wrong. even royse conceded that. Between you, myself, and most people reading this yes. But apparently someone isn’t agreeing because this crime is still happening. ….like if you can get away with saying you… Read more »
Sigh. So what else can we do then? What do you suggest? Continue to send mixed messages or speak clearly about what is and isn’t rape and what is and isn’t acceptable? I suggest the latter. I’m not spouting meaningless lingo. I’m not saying we shouldn’t talk about it. I’m saying we should be clear. Rapists get away with rape daily, if not hourly. Please educate yourself on the context of this issue. Please. By zero tolerance I mean communicating clearly what is acceptable and what isn’t (penetrating a sleeping woman=not acceptable; open, honest conversation and active consent=acceptable), and punishing… Read more »
The reason the crime is still happening (in the case in question, penetrating a sleeping person), it’s because the penetrator wants to penetrate and, where I differed from Alyssa, knew that what he was doing was taking something without explicit permission. I got in a huge argument with Marcus about it I think, about how if I didn’t know a person and they left their wallet on their chair and the check came and the person had offered to pay, that it would be a huge breach of boundaries for me to reach over, open their wallet and pay just… Read more »
I can agree with that Julie. What I’m trying to get at is if the phrases and full stop declarations aren’t working then what is so wrong about trying to get some sort of conversation going, even if it doesn’t solve the crime once and for all?
I got in a huge argument with Marcus about it I think, about how if I didn’t know a person and they left their wallet on their chair and the check came and the person had offered to pay, that it would be a huge breach of boundaries for me to reach over, open their wallet and pay just because they’d offered. Yes, Julie, we disagreed about a wallet hypothetical I presented (after you had raised a wallet example), but your brief paraphrase here is a gross misrepresentation of my hypothetical and the position I took. I actually presented two… Read more »
It requires standing up and saying, it is never okay to penetrate or otherwise molest a sleeping woman. Full stop. End of story. …unless the story includes explicit, unambiguous, not-just-guessing, ethusiastic consent beforehand, like a partner in a trusted relationship who says, “I’m okay with you initiating or even having sex with me while I’m asleep.” I don’t think it’s a common thing, but the problem with “full stop end of story” declarations is that they seem to exclude exceptions involving fully consenting adults. It’s like saying spanking is never okay. Full stop. End of story. Well, yeah, when what… Read more »
“I’m not exagerrating about the whining is rape argument. I’ve seen it in GMP comments more than once, leading to ephiphanies of women “realizing” they were raped when until now, they thought their yes’s had meant yes, just like the men they said yes to. It reaches an absurd point where even “yes” means “no”, and it’s hard to think of any sex that doesn’t count as rape, since the criteria becomes not consent at the time, but how the woman feels and thinks about it forever after, possessing the ability to revoke consent retroactively (“hey, come to think of… Read more »
No, Archy. Nagging isn’t rape, but I totally understand why women (or men in gay relationships, or women in lesbian relationships) would tire of being nagged for sex and view past sex, given after being nagged/whined/pushed for etc, as less than consensual. Not how a court of law would see it, but giving in to a chore or a demand, thus really spoiling the experience and the memory of past sex, given not with desire, but out of a sense of shutting the guy/girl up. Just as I’d see how a man in a relationship where the woman wanted to,… Read more »
“I don’t want touch or emotional support that is begrudgingly given.” No offense meant here but if you’re a woman, and following common stereotypes, a woman who has let’s say level 60 sex drive and a partner with level 80, would you’re sex drive be completely fulfilled? If it is then you may not understand the lack of fulfilment the level 80 feels if you only have sex at a level 65 level. Basically you’re getting more than you want, he’s not getting enough and so even begrudgingly given could be better than nothing. I commonly see desperation for sex… Read more »
In the above I also included emotional support (intimacy outside sex). As in, my needs for processing and talk are an 80 and my mate’s is more like a 50 so I don’t make him listen to me when it’s clear he doesn’t want to participate. Because it would be rude to use him like that. So yeah, I do get it. Also I’ve been the one with higher libido in several relationships so I get that too. And whining and demanding was never the answer. His body was his body and I had no “right” to make him give… Read more »
For me the real question is still, why would that person be satisfied with sex gotten through coercion, whining, nagging, pushing…why would a person be satisfied with physical or emotional exchange in which the other person really didn’t want it but was doing it to sate the other’s irritation.
Because they think that that is how sex is supposed to go (transactional model)?
Because they think that such sex is the only sex that they are able to have (as in “I am so undesirable that this is my only option for sex.”)
That may be true. And I suspect there are more and more partners deciding that no, that isn’t the way it is supposed to go and saying no, thus the nagging. It’s a bad model.
@ Amelia I’m sorry you had to go through what you went through. I disagree that rapists are not stigmatized. They are that’s why your rapist told you not to tell anyone. The reason you think they’re not stigmatized is because many times the victim is not believed. You don’t stigmatize someone you think is innocent and it could result in people actively defending them. That’s what you see. I think a large part of the “stigma” that rape victims feel is that the people don’t know how to act around them. People sometimes have that reaction to the disabled.… Read more »
“but I wholeheartedly believe it is worth a try. The waffling and the muddying of messages is certainly not helping.” The ironic thing is that I believe that was one of the problems mentioned in the discussion some people didn’t want us to have. There are some women who feel they have to put up resistance to sex they want so they won’t be considered sluts. It confuses guys because they don’t know when no means no. We also discussed how the signals could mean maybe or maybe later, but men interpret them as yes. Doing away with slut shaming… Read more »