Three women discuss the prevalence of men acting as gatekeepers to sci-fi and fantasy. Why does it happen? What does it feel like?
Editor’s Note: I don’t want you to think this is some kind of attack job. I’m currently learning to speak Sith; my ‘nerd card’ is old and tattered from years and years of wear and tear.
I posed this to my Facebook friends. “I want to write an article about women in cosplay/ general nerdy spheres. Specifically, I want to address the sexism displayed when their legitimacy (true fandom) is questioned by men. What does it feel like? Why do you think it happens?”
I was planning to read their comments and use them as the basis for writing my article. I quickly changed my mind, though. I want to let them speak for themselves.
Here are some of the responses:
“First, there are the acute examples. I often cosplay as sexy characters. I’m young(ish) and I want to enjoy it while it lasts. When I’m 70, I want to look back on my spandex years without thinking I wasted them. That given, it causes me problems. For example, I when I dressed as Kitty Pryde years ago, I spent a great deal of the night explaining to people that no, I was not Rogue or that I did not randomly pick Kitty Pryde from a list of lady characters because my friend already took Rogue. I spent a lot of time shoving my toy Lockheed in people’s faces, as if me having this prop somehow proved that I legitimately loved the X-man I most identify with. Not that it should matter even if I didn’t, but that’s another whole deal. Note: The guy with the not-so-great Gambit outfit in our group didn’t get questioned even once. Note: He doesn’t read comic books.
A few years later, I’m dressed as Leeloo Dallas (MULTIPASS). The bandage outfit, not the suspenders. A man actually told me to show him my tits and got upset when I tried to explain that I was wearing this outfit because I love Leeloo Dallas (MULTIPASS) and not for his viewing pleasure. I believe what I actually said was, “Sir. Sir. You are getting your rape culture all over me.” I said, “Sir.” That’s polite, right? He couldn’t seem to fathom that my body and my costume choices weren’t about him. You asked what that feels like. It feels terrifying. It feels like I might be assaulted because I like a particular character or want to dress in a particular outfit.
I feel like I have to constantly develop conversations about my fandoms to a larger extent than I would so that I don’t give people the chance to question my legitimacy. |
In a sad way, though, it doesn’t feel any different from every day. My choices are constantly judged. Yes, I needed to go to the store by myself. No, my short skirt isn’t for you, it’s because I like it. Etc. etc. etc. It’s more frustrating, however, because fandom somehow feels like it should be more accepting. There’s this idea that somehow because nerd-dom is made of outcasts, they should understand bigotry. Really, though, the world is made of small-minded assholes, whether they were discriminated against or not.
On the larger, every day side, I feel like I have to constantly develop conversations about my fandoms to a larger extent than I would so that I don’t give people the chance to question my legitimacy. It’s stupid and it feeds into cultural gatekeeping in a way that I’m not particularly proud of, but it’s still easier than becoming enraged when some asshat assumes I only read The Walking Dead because my boyfriend does, or whatever bullshit. So, for example, if I’m meeting someone new and we are getting into a conversation about Game of Thrones, I make sure to reference A Song of Ice and Fire, specifically, by name, and then quickly discuss something from the books that didn’t make it into the show. Thus, I give myself credibility before I am questioned. I’ve developed this habit (which, as I said, I’m not proud of) after years and years of dudes trying to mansplain shit about sci-fi and fantasy. I get angry quickly about it.
I’m little and can’t fight, and someday my big mouth will get me in trouble, so I’ve figured out how to make it not an issue. I will not be patronized and I will not be made to feel bad because I don’t know every author of Expanded Universe books. I will discuss Timothy Zahn and be okay with it. See what I did there? I gave myself cred by name-dropping. It’s so ingrained I did it without even thinking. That’s how I cope. I guess my best way to explain it, beyond literally doing it in this explanation without even meaning to, is that when I tell people I’ve cosplayed as Princess Leia, I immediately point out that I’ve done Hoth and Endor Leia, as well as gold bikini, whether they’ve asked or not.”
– M
“I think ‘nerd-dom’ is a heavily codified social structure which places pressure on the participants both internally and externally. For example, I think society at large has, for a long time, said “well, if you’re a nerd you are a dude, you’re single, you live in your mother’s basement, you got beat up in school” etc. And those stereotypes are then internalized. So when a woman comes along and is like “I also love Batman!”, there’s a natural resistance, because the woman has become ‘the other’, has become sort of threatening. How dare this attractive cosplayer step into nerd territory? She’s obviously just trying to look COOL, or make fun of the ‘true nerds’, etc etc. I think a lot of it is fear-based. And I think, sadly, (and this is a generalization, so you know – not true 100% of the time), that nerds can be crazy misogynist, partly due to that stigma that says “you, as a nerd, are not meant to be around women”.
The identity of ‘nerd’ has become a sort of safe space where they can hide from potential rejection, maybe? As if, in reclaiming the slur, it was necessary to exclude from it the people who might use it to hurt them. (hot girls, jocks, etc etc high school stereotypes).”
-K
“I’ve been to San Diego Comic Con, Dragon Con, the past three Wizard Worlds in New Orleans, a few smaller conventions in New Orleans, Nerdapalooza, World Steam Expo, and Marscon — And I’ve had positive experiences and interactions at all of them.
The only time someone gave me trouble at a con was at Wizard World 2012. I was wearing my Arkham City Harley Quinn costume (which is a bit revealing) and a guy tried to quiz me on who created Harley. But he was trying to be coy about it and appear as if he wasn’t insulting my intelligence.
I feel like a lot more of the negative stuff happens online. [K] is right about “nerdom” and conventions being a “safe place” for some people, but when women enter the safe place, men are suddenly facing a new threat — rejection. A guy I used to be Facebook friends with would, at first, compliment many cosplayers on their Facebook pictures, but then he’d slut-shame them or call them “fake geek girls” when they refused his advances. And there are many guys like him. I’m not sure if it’s just the idea of women being in this space that makes some men feel threatened, or it’s the idea that women are in this space AND THEY CAN’T HAVE THEM.”
-B
“There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.” – From “The Jedi Code”.
So, I pose the same questions to you: Why does this happen? What does it feel like? And one final question: How do we change this?
Photo- Flickr/ Doug Kline
Okay, here’s the thing, is this a generational issue due to the young men of today being raised with no manners? Or maybe it’s the comics subfandom and not fandom in general? ‘Cause I’m 49 and thanks to my father I’ve pretty much been a geek since 1966, when at two I became old enough to recognize who Spock was during Star Trek’s first run, and I don’t remember things being anywhere near as bad as the stuff I’ve been hearing about in the last few years. I played my first game of D&D around 1985, attended my first con… Read more »
I would like to think that things are gradually getting better. The more things are written about the subject, the more inclusive and popular comics and sci-fi become, the more the creeps complain, that the tides are turning for more inclusive fandoms. With my last point, I mean that, the more you hear people complaining, and the louder and more defensive they become, the faster something is dying: a death rattle, as it were. In a way – and perhaps this is wishful thinking – as bad as many of these creeps are, they worse their behaviour gets, the faster… Read more »
I think a lot of it is fear-based. And I think, sadly, (and this is a generalization, so you know – not true 100% of the time), that nerds can be crazy misogynist, partly due to that stigma that says “you, as a nerd, are not meant to be around women”. I can tell you for sure that at one point this was true for me. Its not too different from women who grow up having bad experiences with men and by the time they reach adult hood they don’t have such a great outlook on men. I didn’t exactly… Read more »
We should show some compassion and sensitivity towards them. Some of them appear to have asperger’s or other psychological issues, diagnosed or not. Mentally ill people deserve a little kindness and a little understanding when we look at their public behavior.
I’m curious about how these women’s experiences compare with men’s experiences with cosplay and conventions. My impression is that male fans can be pretty snarky and snobby with EACH OTHER and frequently jockey for position about who is the real expert and who’s just a wannabe. So, it’s not too surprising that many of them do the same to female fans as well. I bet there are male fans who get taunted with the accusation that they just got into it because they had a crush on a girl who was into it. I’m guessing that it’s mostly a difference… Read more »
We should be encouraging MORE young women to dress in sci-fi and comic costumes, not driving them away. Guys, don’t you WANT to be surrounded by young women dressed like Dejah Thoris, Princess Leia in the gold bikini, Catwoman, Jungle Girl, or the White Queen from the Hellfire Club? Surely I’m not the only grown man who likes these genres in part because of beautiful women in revealing clothing. [Interesting. Spellchecker recognizes “Leia” and “Hellfire” but not “Catwoman.”] Genre after genre showing young women in tight and/or skimpy outfits, and you’re driving away women who are perfectly happy to dress… Read more »
I had seen an episode of Game of Thrones with a male college roommate, but didn’t much care for it until about a year later when I met my girlfriend who had already read the first book and seen the first season on TV. What is Game of Thrones? At first glance, it’s another HBO show touting extreme violence and, particularly in the first season, plentiful nudity and objectification of women, etc. I at first avoided it largely because of the misogynist, basement-dwelling male stereotype that tends to accompany such kinds of fandoms. It wasn’t really until I could watch… Read more »
You’re right, I don’t think the show is necessarily simple when it comes to gender/sex issues. I’m sure there are people watching it who are rooting for the most misogynistic characters, but in general the most knuckle-dragging characters are the least sympathetic. There are clearly powerful and complicated female characters who are not just eye candy, and many of the most misogynistic characters meet gruesome ends. (Then again, a LOT of characters meet gruesome ends….)
If there’s misogyny in the show, it sure doesn’t make misogyny look very good….
I notice this in a lot of shows.
For all the shows that have male characters that generate conversations and blog posts and articles about how misogynistic they are, the characters that embody those traits are generally bad unlikable people and that misogyny is often used as a sign that they are bad.
Hating women is still commonly used a sign that a male character is bad.
The best analogy I have heard for this is the following. So you want to skydive do you, cool. Here are the rules, you need some classroom time called ground school, your first few jumps are on a tether line or you are with an instructor, also, because of gravity you will eventually hit the ground, how hard is based on your equipment / training. Someone come into the skydiving course and proclaims those rules are stupid and they WILL NOT TAKE THE REQUIRED TRAINING, THEY WILL NOT BE TETHERED and THEY WILL NOT TOUCH THE GROUND because they won’t… Read more »
By that logic, the rules of the cosplay cons should be clearly displayed, in large font, right above the registration tables. I’m sure skydiving classrooms/businesses have all sorts of posters of lists on the walls, probably in big red letters. There are no doubt FAA and professional guidelines governing all sorts of things, which everyone taking part has to be aware of. So, list all the rules about how you are allowed to behave towards each other. Print a huge disclaimer warning people that they are entering into an environment in which insults are frequent, girls are assumed to be… Read more »
@ wellokaythen I think his point is more about genre than about rules. There are accepted elements like the use of gratuitous violence and female nudity. There are even sub genres like women in prison movies. Should there be male nudity also? I don’t think that would be a problem, but some might feel that the “new” genre should be named something else. I also see resistance from the purists when changes are made to comic book characters. Do we really want a black Nick Fury or would it have been better to make another S.H.I.E.L.D. agent who happened to… Read more »
Like you do, I see the genre and the social gatherings as somewhat different things. I thought most of the complaints in the article were about how the male fans treat female fans, not so much about how sexist the genre is. The norms of a medium and the rules of a con are not necessarily the same thing. The article seems to be complaining about fan behavior and not really about the genres themselves. In fact, the characters in these media rarely look down on each other for being somehow “inauthentic.” It’s actually “out of character” to make comments… Read more »
This analogy operates under the assumption that women just randomly showed up one day, and have not always been followers of any fandom. This simply isn’t the case. It’s taken time to realize that we’re not alone, and the internet has helped, because commercials, ads, and all manner of marketing would have you believe that the only fans are male. Again, this is not, and has never been the case.
I’m curious how you feel about things like “GeekGirlCon.” Is that a solution to some of these issues, a distraction, a step backwards, or…..?
[Not trying to make a point here, I really am just curious.]
No worries! I figured it was a genuine question. This will be the first time I’ve put my feelings on the matter into words, so bare with me and feel free to ask more questions. I feel as though GeekGirlCon is side-stepping the issue and making us out to be a minority. In terms of treatment and marginalization, I suppose we are, but in numbers, I can only doubt we are so few. I’ve had people throw “prove it!” in my face, but how? Surveys? We know how flawed surveys are. Foot traffic in the usual geek places? We’ve already… Read more »
*ugh* Unfortunate typo. Bear with me, please. That’s what I get for typing with frozen fingers.
A friend of mine (a woman) has been to GeekGirlCon, and she very much enjoyed it. I don’t know what she thinks about the gender dynamics. She said that about a third of the people there were male. I don’t have any stats on this, but I suspect that the percentage of female fans is roughly comparable to the percentage of women who are screenwriters, comic writers, comic artists, game designers, sci fi novelists, etc. Those appear to be in the minority, but a minority that’s growing evey year. Then again, it’s entirely possible that there are far more women… Read more »
There are far more women involved, but they’re caught under the glass ceiling. Too many companies operate under the assumption that women are not an interested demographic, which is a lot of doubt and negativity for anyone to slog through. I know two people who’ve thrown in the towel and turned their talents elsewhere since they’re apparently not “real gamer” material. Try to point this problem out in general cyberspace, and you will be shot down, kicked, burned, and your ashes defiled. They seem to think starting your own gaming company is a simple matter, or it only takes one… Read more »
This hasn’t happened directly to me, but I’ve felt the force of it. As a child, I was praised – primarily by men – for being such a unique girl for loving Star Wars and Forgotten Realms. When I got older and learned more about various “nerd” universes, those who were praising me disappeared. When I tried to enjoy a good nerdfest with them, they’d suddenly have something else to do. I’d thought that maybe these were just fads and I’d missed the boat by virtue of having not been born early enough. I’ve later realized that their intelligence might… Read more »
I wonder if some of the resentment you felt when entering a new group of gamers was rooted in invading boys night out. No offense to the ladies, but sometimes a guy just wants to hang out with the guys.
Where did I mention any resentment toward myself? In the first paragraph, where, as a teen, I tried talking to grown men, not during one of their “nights out” (heaven forbid), but typically when they were over at my house, visiting with my family? The group of gamers I encountered in college bore me no ill-will. I’m not sure what you’re trying to explain to me.
A close friend of mine actually puts on comic conventions. They’re usually pretty small about 20 dealers and about 70 – 100 customers. I’d say about 10 – 15 customers are women and every one I’ve spoken to was there because she was with her boyfriend or son with the exception of one, who was with a nephew. There is one woman who cosplays. She’s a regular and engaged to one of the vendors. She’s gorgeous and nobody gives her a hard time. She’s accepted even though she’s only there to support her fiance. They probably believe that the women… Read more »
K is the only one who seems to get it. “seems” because she accuses us geeks of being misogynists (thanks) when in fact we are the rejected and suddenly women show up to reject us in our safe space. we have retreated from society and now women are invading. except now the women who are invading are not just rejecting us for not being socially acceptable we are now being rejected by feminists because we are now all suddenly misogynists. it’s offensive. What is funny is that B confirms what K guesses at is one of the problems. K: “She’s… Read more »
It’s one thing to out-nerd each other. I’ve dueled with others to prove my prowess. But how do you respond, especially when you’ve got the upper hand, when your opponent says, “You only know all this because of [some male acquaintance]?” Even if it had been fun before, the battle can’t continue. There is absolutely nothing you can say when they’ve decided you don’t know any of your stuff on your own merit.
why do you care what he thinks? are you only there to stroke your ego? must a woman blog about it every single time it happens?
nobody is forcing anyone to go to a convention. there are plenty of fat geeks who don’t go so they won’t be ridiculed. these girls can stay home too. I watch my sci-fi shows even though I & have no one to discuss them with. i don’t need to have my ego stroked the way these so-called geek girls do, so i’m not constantly tweeting selfies.
Zodak, I don’t follow your logic.
my logic is that this poor treatment is not exclusive to women, but the near-constant whining about it on the internet is. fat guys are also routinely ridiculed but there aren’t a bunch of tumblrs about it. again, if it is so awful, stay home. there are literally, not figuratively, millions of men who watch cartoons, play video games & read comics who do not go to cons & do not dress up. i enjoy my tv shows but i don’t need to have what i like validated by others. most of these women are going merely to get attention.… Read more »
If it’s so bad that people should stay home because they’re female or overweight, then it can not be the safe place that you claim it is.
Zodak, you seem to be conflating ‘pointing out existing problems’ with ‘complaining’. Subcultural problems are rarely solved by ignoring them. Nobody’s saying men are never questioned about trivia, but from what I (a guy, by the way) have seen, women are not given the same initial benefit of the doubt. Guys’ ‘nerd cred’ is only questioned if they answer something incorrectly, whereas women are assumed to be fakers until they’ve correctly answered every obscure question launched at them. Women are also assumed to be this monolithic entity. One ‘faker’ nerd guy is assumed to be a reflection of him, whereas… Read more »
I think zodak is asking Jessica why doesn’t need a comeback to “You only know all this because of (male acquaintance)?”
At that is it about making con spaces inclusive or is it about just scoring a zinger on some guy she is in a nerd off with?
And since there’s a few Star Wars quotes in the article I dare say that yes there is a difference. The why behind one’s actions can be just as important as the actions themselves.
Nerd offs should only be about the trivia. Just like a game of football or a round of golf, it should all be in good fun, even though you want to “win”. It becomes something completely different the moment someone says “you only know this because of [nothing to your own credit]”, and it sends the message that we (whoever we are) are unwelcome.
As a female cosplayer, I can empathize with much of the women’s points from this article. Often there’s slut-shaming, having your knowledge/interest come into question, etc. from guys who, for some reason, think that no one else can participate in the various Cons unless they know every single factoid about the various fandoms. I make it my mission, at the events, to chat with newcomers, welcome them, and help them avoid those kinds of creeps.