Marcus Williams has figured it out. Sex is beautiful and communication should be open—except when there’s lust involved.
Tom Matlack’s recent article, “Is Male Lust Turning Us Inside Out”, was a thoughtful piece about male lust and how it … the way men … that it would be great if we could …
Shoot. Beats me what it was about. I mean, I’m sure it was about something, and I really did read the whole thing the first time through, but the ensuing discussion in comments was focused on the first paragraph, in which Tom described a friend as a “wonderful husband,” despite him having dropped the bomb that motherhood had “ruined” his wife’s tits. (It’s possible that wasn’t the only focus, but I stopped trying to keep up around the 150th or so comment.)
To be fair, the husband didn’t just say that his wife’s breasts were ruined—he also told Tom about sneaking porn and going to strip clubs without his wife’s knowledge because “she would freak out if she knew,” and made it sound like his only alternative would be to have an affair with a teenager. As a man, husband, and human, that part of Tom’s description did not sound very wonderful to me, because I don’t think that kind of deception is consistent with a healthy relationship. It’s the deception I have a problem with, not the porn or strip clubs.
The deception aspect of Tom’s friend got a little attention in discussion, but what really depressed me was how quick the women in the thread were to condemn the friend and dispute the “wonderful” part for the crime of no longer finding his wife’s breasts as beautiful as he once had. Over several comments and even across threads on other articles, many commenters echoed the theme that if a man wasn’t prepared to lust after his wife’s breasts—and nobody else’s—forever and ever, then he shouldn’t have married her and he damn well shouldn’t have got her pregnant. Breast fetishes are disgusting anyway and a wonderful husband would know that and transfer his lust to other body parts or, even better, the whole person. Selfish asshole. (I’m paraphrasing.)
I’m onboard with any argument that fading physical beauty is not justification for deceiving one’s spouse, much less cheating on them, but I am dumbfounded by the shock and outrage over a statement that age and/or children had a negative impact on physical beauty. I can’t believe that any of the women criticizing Mr. Wonderful would suggest that his wife’s breasts were just as amazing to look at after motherhood as before, but they seem to be saying he’s a lout for not thinking exactly that, as if there’s a magic switch husbands can toggle to cancel out the effects of gravity and breastfeeding on their visual cortex.
Absent from Tom’s description, but assumed in many of the comments, was any evidence that Mr. Wonderful was so fixated on his breast lust that he no longer found any other part of his wife attractive, physical or otherwise. There was no indication that when the breasts sagged, he ceased wanting or having any physical intimacy with his wife, but several commenters scolded him for not shifting his desires to other parts, implicitly assuming that once a breast man, only a breast man. There was no elaboration of whether Mr. Wonderful’s wife also considered her tits ruined, and perhaps out of self-consciousness, no longer let him enjoy them like he used to. There was a whole lot of missing information, some of which may have made the husband more sympathetic, and some which would confirm everyone’s worst suspicions, but what I found depressing was that among the women, this passing statement about lust from one male friend to another was reflexively judged in the worst possible light.
The subheading to Tom’s piece was, “Tom Matlack wonders what would happen if men were allowed to be open about their lust.” In my recent article, “From Librarian to Eye Candy in 20 Seconds”, and it’s follow-up, I took quite a bit of heat for being open about some lust I barely expressed as a single man, getting criticized for objectifying women and having it suggested I should learn to care about other things besides appearance first—even though I hadn’t done anything. Now I’m on the married side, to a woman I only knew through written words for almost a year before we met in person. We’ve had kids, and I still love her and lust after her, but her body, alas, shows some of the hallmark signs of age and motherhood. I can easily imagine myself saying to a friend, “Motherhood has not helped her tits.” If I go by the reaction to Mr. Wonderful, that would be enough to make me a selfish, disrespectful horndog of a man, even without the secret porn and strip clubs.
The answer to Tom’s wondering about the consequences of men being open about their lust appears to be that it will be characterized as selfish and hurtful, whether you’re single or married, and whether you keep it to yourself or do something with it. Lip service is paid to the importance of open communication and how sexuality is a beautiful thing, but the dominant message in comments is: Don’t! Don’t lust. It’s yucky. It’s shallow. If you have to lust, keep it to yourself. Lust for your wife is almost okay, but it’s not allowed to change, and don’t tell her if it does. Don’t tell your friends if it does. And whatever you do, don’t tell Tom about it, because that dude will tell everybody.
—Photo sh1mmer/Flickr
Along not alone, that was a mispell
Do you blame women for seeing men as selfish lust monsters who don’t take kindly to the ageing process? I don’t. Women’s bodies go through a lifetime of wear and tear and recovery from that is incredible. The way the body can heal after anything, from a lifetime of hard labour (such as being a miner) or pregnancy and childbirth, it’s a fascinating and incredible thing for the body to do. But to act like her body is ruined because she’s gone through the most dangerous and one of the most essential and one of the hardest and most painful… Read more »
Daddies- ya’ll best be hitting the gym, too b/c ya’lls bodies are “ruined” too. Doesn’t feel good, does it? :/ I hate how our culture has become. People have become so indispensable.
Men love breasts b/c they see them EVERYWHERE. I mean you cannot watch a movie, see a show, hell- see an ad that doesn’t use breasts to sell. That’s fine- it doesn’t shake my confidence. What bothers me- I love cock- yep- so how come I and the other women who love male anatomy don’t get to see that in movies, ads, shows???? Perhaps men are better with covering up and letting things be a mystery and unfortunately there will always be a woman who shows everything- I hate that shit-. But it is time to see more male physiques… Read more »
If you equality is your aim, I’m sure that many men would have no argument in women baring their chests as often as men bare theirs.
Men’s chests are on display far, far, far more often than women’s in the movies and elsewhere in our society. Hence, women get to see male nude chests way more often than men get to see women’s.
After scanning through the hundreds of comments (and finally giving up on reading most of them as my eyes crossed and steam began to escape from my skull), I’m left with just a few things to say: As a child, I was taunted by classmates about my body size. Was I overweight? Hell no. I just didn’t fit in with their “views” of the way things should be. (obviously these views were taught/absorbed at home). In High School, I was an early bloomer and thought to be a slut because I had massive tits at a very young age. I… Read more »
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I think it is so funny how women don’t just admit that we love to see attractive men and see them naked. We don’t say that to you b/c we know it would destroy our husbands especially if their bodies were “ruined” as many are (I mean, really- how many men go on to take care of themselves in a marriage). Our culture needs to shift to more gender equality- Women have sex on the brain constantly too. How disappointing is it to watch a movie and see a naked woman- but for a man- we see his chest and… Read more »
I tend to agree with this part of your post, “when you gawk, say something about the part, disrespect a part- then that is just wrong.” The idea that lust is so important that it requires constant attention and affirmation that it’s a good and positive thing is disturbing to me. The idea that the titillation one gets from input to one’s visual cortex somehow outweighs the importance of considering your partner’s humanity – their individuality – their feelings. This disturbs me even more. No, there is no magic switch that men can use to change their ‘loved’ ones’ bodies… Read more »
Very nicely said, my dear. We DO, as women, think about sex quite often….I agree with everything you said. “Roger, coy that!”
Dear John,
Thad asked me to pass long the following message to you because his account is unaccountably blocked, apparently because he mentioned “pole-dancing” which some people here find inappropriate or unsafe.
John, yes I do. In humor, great truths are displayed. This happens to be one of them.
Little girls learn very early about beauty and attractiveness and how it’s used to judge women. They don’t learn that from porn.
The Onion is being hyperbolic but its point is essentially valid.
Hi Ana/Thad,
Hopefully Thad is not blocked but had a posting problem. I have both disagreed with him (vehemently) and agreed with him. But, most times I think he has something insightful to say.
If Thad has been blocked for something so minor, that is a big problem. A large part of why I post here is that this is the least moderated space where people of all different leanings can post.
In any event, I wasn’t sure if Thad knew the onion was a joke site. The article is interesting.
Thaddeus I am aware that Africa is a continent and I meant to write cultures like those in Africa. When I referred to female newsreaders I was referring to Australian newsreaders as I live in Australia, though I should have made this clear. I am not blaming men or the porn industry I am saying that societies acquire their sense of normalcy/deviancy from powerful institutions like the media and hairless vagina’s and airbrushed labia are normalised in the porn culture, as are thin, attractive young women. When I said protruding labia I meant labia that were visible and of an… Read more »
Misha, I agree with your view that the media has a very odd understanding of the human female body and promotes unrealistic expectations about it. However, I do not buy the view that it’s the media’s fault. A dialectic exists between the media and America’s desires and perceptions about the body: one pushes and pulls the other. Overall, my opinion is that it’s the American view that bodily perfection can and should be available to everyone that ends up driving this whole dynamic. It’s the same cultural dynamic that make people buy into the idea that they, too, can and… Read more »
…and a classical musical interlude for the commentators who’ve stuck with this interesting thread up to now: The Fugs, with Boobs-a-lot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPVgKoruWdA
Whoops, the website “ate” part of my comment before. 🙁
Where there is “” I was quoting Jill (as follows):
@Jill
> Crescendo, I understand what you are getting at, but I wonder what you mean
> by “relating to a man for what he is” in the context of a husband who thinks
> his wife’s tits are “ruined.”
You’re right on all the other ends though. Bodies change. You can’t pretend they don’t, and I wouldn’t want my partner to. I don’t find anything wrong with pointing out each others flaws or making fun of them to each other, as long as we can still get turned on by each other (or work at it) and enjoy each others’ company. If I ask for honesty and then freak out when something isn’t perfect, that’s absolutely on me too. Neither I nor my partner expect each other to like every part of the other’s body all the time. If… Read more »
I was going to answer to a comment by Jill up there, then I thought whis would be worth it posting at the end of the comment list, to make it more visible. (deprecable ego boost, I know 😉 Kick me 😀 ) @Jill <> Jill, I appreciate your interest to understand. Ok, I’ll try to make myself clear… – First, I always consider men and women as equal; not in the sense they are the same, but that – to me – they are peer. No better, no worse. Double standards are the stupidest things ever. Every time someone… Read more »
I think I get what you are saying — the husband’s dislike of his wife’s “ruined” breasts is an imperfection in his love for her that she should accept. I suppose we all have to decide what we are willing to live with. I suppose my feeling is, if my husband dislikes my body so much that he thinks of me as “ruined,” he is welcome to find someone else. It’s not that I expect him to think I’m perfect, because I’m not. But if he really thinks I’m “ruined,” why is he staying in the relationship? he should go… Read more »
Interesting that research by anthros in strip clubs indicates that a lot of the men who go to them see their behavior as “relationship saving”. They want to see nice tits, but also want to be true to their wives. The strip club for these guys becomes a way fo balancing that contradiction: they get to see nice tits, but they can’t have sex with the women. So then they go home and are fatihful with their wives.
Note that I’m not making any judgement, pro or contra, about these guys’ position. I’m justrepeating what they say.
You can still enjoy strip clubs, but not go around talking about your wife’s ‘ruined tits.’ 🙂
Agreed, Aya.
That absolutely rings true, Thad. That going to strip clubs can be ‘relationship saving.’ I personally don’t think that all people can be absolutely faithful and only lust after one person–often admitting that and finding a good outlet for it can be a good thing for the relationship. How realistic is it that one person can fulfill all of your sexual and lust needs forever? As long as the man going to strip clubs can also allow his wife to find a way to get her sexual kicks too. Right now, that might be a bit more difficult, but there’s… Read more »
Hell, I go into to so many brothels and sex clubs in my research these days that I’m totally blasé. To the point where the other day at 4×4 in dowtown Rio, I watched this woman plant her vagina on the roof while pole dancing, doing the splits perfectly, upside down, three meters in the air and my first thought was “Wow! What form! 10 from the Russian judge!” My wife and I have come to a new theory that for most of the guys who frequent these places, all this is simply wall-papering. They just sort of watch go… Read more »
Wow, that’s awesome. I’ve met a lot of strippers who can do some crazy pole stuff. It makes me want to take some classes… It’s not always simply erotic, but the strength and flexibility can be be impressive either way. At that point, it really becomes an athletic feat and deserves to be appreciated. I can do normal splits and put my legs behind my back (and give a relatively decent lap dance)…but what you describe puts it all to shame . The girl you saw really takes her career seriously (I don’t mean that in a sarcastic or deprecating… Read more »
When I interviewed the woman later, she offered to arm wrestle me and slammed my arm on the table in three minutes flat. She learned to do acrobatics in a “circus school”set up by an NGO to give poor children “discipline and real life skills”. Of course, there are far many more job openings for “stripper”and “termas prostitute” in Brazil than for circus acrobat, so this was yet another case of good salvationist intentions having odd side effects. The woman had already saved up enough money to go to college, but wanted to work until she had enough money for… Read more »
Sorry, make that “three flat She was strong as hell and tough as old horseshoes.
I’m curious. Can that mean anything other than a massage where the masseuse/eur tries to get a woman off sexually? If not, isn’t it just a massage? I can’t tell if you were calling erotic massage and looking at strippers or porn roughly equal, but I would disagree if you were.
it`s worth remember ing here that the “massage cure” was used by psychologists for “hysterical” women long before Freud invented his talking cure.]
The massage cure involved using a steam- or electrical-powered vibrating device which would massage the woman all over before being applied to her genitals until she achieved orgasm.
Other psychologists would just use their hand to conduct the massage.
Freud went with the “talking cure” because he was singularly bad at masturbating women to a climax.
This isn’t a joke, by the way.
“Interesting that research by anthros in strip clubs indicates that a lot of the men who go to them see their behavior as “relationship saving”. They want to see nice tits, but also want to be true to their wives. The strip club for these guys becomes a way fo balancing that contradiction: they get to see nice tits, but they can’t have sex with the women. So then they go home and are fatihful with their wives. Note that I’m not making any judgement, pro or contra, about these guys’ position. I’m justrepeating what they say.” Well that’s depressing.… Read more »
What about women, Erin, who also wish to experience sensual or sexual stimulation outside the marriage but don’t want to cheat? There aren’t a wide variety of strip clubs featuring men (for straight women anyway) but do you suppose women find avenues to get that “hit” of lust? I do. The gym, for instance, or I’m sure there are women out there watching internet porn or movies featuring hot men (see the Ryan Gosling article on GMP). It’s why I also see the value in varying levels of non monogamy IF the couple is willing to do the work (emotional,… Read more »
Great point, Erin. I worked for a short time as a stripper in a women’s club. That was 25 years ago and such clubs have only gotten more popular since then. In fact, I’d hazard a guess (I don’t have the data to back this up) that as more women climb the job/status totem pole, we will see more and more women behaving like men, sexually speaking. They will be paying for prostitutes or “massages”, going to strip clubs… you name it. Of course, the WAYS in which women consume paid sex are very different than the ways that men… Read more »
Agreed, Erin. It really does sound like a whole lot of justification going on. Rather than feeling like a jerk because he knows that he’s doing something that would hurt his wife, he just frames it in a way that makes it GOOD for his relationship and all of his guilt is gone. He’s the good guy again. Even though his wife would likely be very hurt by his actions, he can pat himself on the back for being such a great husband.
I am Thaddeus’ wife and coresearcher, Erin. In our research, it isn’t so much depressing because men consider women to be disposable. I find it funny when people tell me men objectify women in these places. The point seems to be that the women are entirely trivialized, not objectified, which is quite more depressing. Not objects, because to give them the status of objects would be to imply that they can be owned or have some sort of value. They’re just part of the scenery, that’s all. All real social interaction is between men. Many people ask me, if I… Read more »
Ana: I think this might be a cultural thing. It seems south america has a different business world in which luncheons at strip clubs are somewhat common. In those types of atmospheres where important business is being discussed I could imagine it would be more about calmly enjoying women in a detached way (as window dressing). That is not the atmosphere I have been exposed to at all when going to U.S. strip clubs at night. It’s a totally different atmosphere. Also, these women make a LOT of money. It makes me question who is being victimized as many of… Read more »
Thad: Can you post a link to any said research? I’ve been in quite a few strip clubs, and most of them are populated with 20-somethings (which in these times typically means single). In point of fact, I find the feminist theme about women being preyed upon in strip clubs to be the most broken concept I have ever encountered. Most of the men I see in strip clubs are schlubs with poor interaction skills that go there as the only way to have access to beautiful women’s bodies (if only visual). And the dancers? Rather than victims, topless dancers… Read more »
Dear John, The best research I’ve seen so far about men and their odd relationships to strip joints is in Katherine Franks’ excellent book “G-Strings and Sympathy”. Franks is an anthropologist who, like many men and women, worked as a stripper to pay her way through school. Instead of hiding her “shameful”past, as most people do, she made it the object of her research. I think her book is excellent when it comes to describing strip clubs in the States. I’m not so sure it’s good when describing brothels in Brazil. As Ana mentioned above, the ones we frequent seem… Read more »
Hey Thad, I will have to look up that book. I used to work at a Japanese clutch plant in Michigan. We had a few salesmen who spoke spanish and regularly went to south america to sell clutches. They would always come back stating what an interesting trip it had been. For one thing, people in south america would frequently work 12-13 hour days, but would take 3 hour lunches to recharge, often with alcohol. These sales guys often laid down insinuations that they were hitting strip clubs too. Despite the rumor mill among feminists my suspicion is that business… Read more »
I think that the problem with this is that the guys are taking it as a given that not having access to new breasts is enough to end a relationship. It’s strippers or cheating – no other alternative. As a woman, are those really my only options? I just find it hard to believe that a guy would be willing to give up a relationship or cheat or hurt someone he loved just because he couldn’t see new breasts.
Interesting that you should mention America’s dual morality, John.
I was recently blowing some Brazilian colleagues’ minds with the concept of “porn addcition” and how said concept seems too be dominating an ever-growing portion of the people involved in pop gender debates.
One of my colleagues laughed and said, incredulously, “You’re kidding, right? Americans make the best porn!”
And that’s the crux of it, right there: Entitlement.
“When something “just is” (a given fact), complaining over it is not going anywhere.”
I think that this is your problem. Very few things “just are.” There are so many factors that make us who we are. To accept something as “fact” is to opt out of doing the work of determining the cause and the origin and making a judgement call as to whether something is good or bad, hurtful or helpful. To just throw up your hands and say “oh, well” is not something that’s going to get anyone anywhere.
Marcus (I posted this in the Ryan Gosling thread too, but I’m not sure which you’re reading)–I was thinking about the cheating thing, and I’ll try to explain the difference between that and shit-talking. Like you said, lusting is absolutely a non-issue, I think we’re both in agreement with that one. As for cheating, to me, it’s a mistake that can happen–a really bad one, but a mistake nonetheless: My partner is my lover and my ally. We are completely honest with each other, he’s the one I call first when I’m in trouble, he’s the one who gives me… Read more »
I wrote a really long thing. And it got deleted in an automatic refresh 🙁
I suggest you get auto-recovery of comments…
Bummer. It happens a lot here, but there are a few workarounds you can use, since waiting on the site to fix it for you is likely to cause more frustration, especially since this isn’t the only site where it’s a problem. 1. Compose comments, especially long ones, in something besides your browser, like Notepad if you’re using Windows, or TextEdit if you’re on a Mac. When the comment is ready, copy and paste. 2. If you use Firefox as a browser, try install an add-on called Lazarus. ( https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/lazarus-form-recovery/ ). It does a pretty good job of saving stuff… Read more »
Like most women who have commented here, my biggest problem with the article was the way in which the man made reference to his wife by using the term ‘ruined tits’. A woman’s body is a remarkable life giving creation that can independently sustain the life of another human being for eighteen months: nine months inside the body and nine months outside the body by breastfeeding before any solid foods are required. As the mother of two children, my body has undergone some astronomical changes. My stomach has been stretched beyond the size of a large and when I was… Read more »
Two comments: RE: “I will never forget my sister’s husband telling me in her presence that his favourite part of her body was the area just under her navel because it had become softer after childbirth– softer than it had been before.” I make this comment all the time although my wife seems unfazed by it. You make a lot of extreme and unsubstantiated statements. I only have time now to address one of them. RE: “But as a general rule, the minute anchorwomen sprout a grey hair or a wrinkle they are replaced with younger, perkier versions of themselves.”… Read more »
I agree with you, Eric. My feminist and strongly anti-objectification-of-women’d-bodies wife REFUSES to let even a single gray hair show, although I’ve told her many times that she looks just GREAT with a them in her hair. She looks at me as if I were an evilo bastard or as if I were making a joke at her expense when I say this. Walk into any pharmacy in the world and check out the women’s hair-care section: it stretchs for meters and you, as a man, will probably be most likely lost. And yet most women can easily tell you… Read more »
Eric – Meredith Viera, who I’ve never noticed a gray hair on her, doesn’t exactly prove that women aren’t infact judged to harsher terms for their looks and for aging. Think of all the channels with really old newscasters and younger women. Could you even imagine a show with a 30-40 year old male host coupled with an 80+ year old female one? Such as is the dynamic with Regis and Kelly. Do you think 60 minutes would have let a 92 year old woman do interviews like they did with Andy Rooney? Think about all the movies that cast… Read more »
“Meredith Viera, who I’ve never noticed a gray hair on her, doesn’t exactly prove that women aren’t infact judged to harsher terms for their looks and for aging.” I have. But, she, like most graying women color it. I’m not saying that women aren’t judged more harshly on ageing; there is no doubt that they are. However, that judging is, in my experience, the harshest from women, not men. For example, many women have this double standard about gray hair. Early gray runs in my family. I started sprouting it in my 20s. So, I have some that is now… Read more »
The difference between our beliefs is that I think men and women contribute to how women perceive themselves. You seem to think women are the only ones that contribute to how women see themselves while men are just along for the ride and only contribuate the barest minimal worth mentioning. But that’s just not the reality about how men have shaped idealogies about beauty in women. However, I will alter my statement though about “women aren’t practicing agism against themselves”. Women wouldn’t practicing agism against themselves if men fully accepted them as is. You would be right that when we… Read more »
“You seem to think women are the only ones that contribute to how women see themselves while men are just along for the ride and only contribuate the barest minimal worth mentioning.” Provide the quote where I said that. Otherwise, that’s just a strawman argument. “Women wouldn’t practicing agism against themselves if men fully accepted them as is.” So, you are now again saying that it’s ALL men. Also, what does “accepted them as is” mean? Do they need to shower and brush their teeth at least? Do they want a man who takes that attitude? “Take me as I… Read more »
You asked me to provide a qoute where my opinion reflected your idealogy that you thought women were most to blame for how they are viewed: You said :” I’m not saying that women aren’t judged more harshly on ageing; there is no doubt that they are. However, that judging is, in my experience, the harshest from women, not men.” You Said: “So, you are now again saying that it’s ALL men. Also, what does “accepted them as is” mean? Do they need to shower and brush their teeth at least? Do they want a man who takes that attitude?… Read more »
First, I apologize for mistaking you for a feminist and your views being driven by WS. Often times they hold the same views. You quoted me as saying that women judge other women more harshly than men judge women. There is no question about that. Women are more likely to comment on another woman’s weight, clothes, shoes, overall style, earrings, hair, and other things that men often don’t even notice. Furthermore, it is women, not men who have the biggest hang-up with dying gray hair. You asked if you used the word “ALL.” Basically, yes. You implied ALL by using… Read more »
Two percent? That must be with a full bush present, no trimming, right? Because really, that sounds unbelievably low to me, based on the few I’ve seen in person and the many more I’ve seen in pictures. You did say “born with” so perhaps you’ve looked at data on newborns and maybe it’s that uncommon, but for the sake of discussing female anatomy in a context of lust, I’m assuming newborns don’t count. I’m skeptical of many of your other premises and conclusions, too, but thanks for your comment.
I don’t know the statistics, but all women have labia and most women probably have larger labia than you see in porn these days. I think I’ve read that 3/4 inch to 2 inches “protrusion” is average.
By “protrusion” I mean total size. Not all women have labia that visibly protrude if you are looking at them while she is just standing there in front of you.
Men were talking about women’s droopy tits and women were complaining about men’s droopy dicks LOOOOOOONG before the porn industry showed up, Misha. You can find medieval poetry about these two topics. Medieval? Hell! The Romans wrote about this sort of thing. Also, Africa isn’t a culture, singular: it’s a continent and it contains many different cultures. And you know what? Many Africangroups have traditionally practiced body modification for sexual purposes. Clitadorectomies immediately spring to mind, but it might come as some surprise to you to learn that many African women are also paying for boob-jobs these days, just like… Read more »
Love your comments. Everything you have said is so true. The image of the “perfect” female body is so divorced from reality, but a lot of men seem to expect it and cannot cope with the experience of a real woman. Even young, attractive women have trouble meeting the expected standards, which is why they flock to get brazilian waxes, breast implants and labiaplasty surgery. Who would have thought, 20 years ago, that women would be getting their genitals surgically altered out of fear that men will be disgusted with their “overly large” labia? (“Overly large” now including labia in… Read more »
I have never seen nor even heard of a man who would refuse to date or have sex with a woman because she doesn’t have a “Brazilian wax” (which, btw, is an American invention), breast implants, or neatly trimmed labia. I think that society DEFINITELY pressures women to care more for their bodies than men, and that means women are more pressured to go along with these sexual display fads as well. But seriously, this has nothing to do with “modern culture” or even “porn”. Unlike a lot of people here, I make part of my job to read about… Read more »
I am not blaming porn per se, but media images in general, which include porn. I agree that vjazzling is bizarre, personally, and I don’t think men are driving that particular fad! However, I have unfortunately read many comments from men on various sites complaining about women with “ugly” labia and/or pubic hair. I’ve even read comments along the line of, “I went back to this woman’s place, she took off her panties and apparently she’d never heard of waxing, so I made an excuse and left!”. I mean, a guy is actually so turned off by pubic hair that… Read more »
There was nothing wrong with your labia up until 5 years ago, and there’s nothing wrong with it now. If some guys don’t like your labia, they’re not the right guys for you, but many, many guys love all shapes and sizes. It’s ironic that I’ve written so much lately about “breast men”, because that’s more a hypothetical turn-on for me; I like breasts well enough, but they aren’t what stoke my lust. Labia on the other hand…yummy. It’s not something I get to ever see on most women, but on the ones I find attractive, I sure get a… Read more »
I actually did watch porn with a guy friend and he DID scrutinize every vagina (we saw a lot). The only perfect one had no inner or outer labia and was just a hairless hole. It caught me off guard. I don’t blame porn, I blame the guy for being…weird about it, inexperienced, and narrow-minded (at that point, he had spent 10 years with porn, and less than a year actually having sex (and not that often, and not within relationships). He was still a great guy, just wasn’t very good with women at that point (he got much better… Read more »
Budgie smugglers!!!! 😀 (Gotta love that Australian slang for speedos…)
Here in Brazil we call really revealing small, small bikini bottoms “dental floss”.
http://cheezburger.com/Danoz/lolz/View/4070773248
Sorry to inform you about vajazzling, Marcus [passes the brain bleach].
Well, OK, Jill. But if “media images in general” are responsible, how do you explain the fact that it was de reiguer for Roman women to shave their pussies? I mean, at some point you need to stop presuming that people are simply programmed by the media: there’s a complex feedback loop going on there. The “it’s the media” thesis doesn’t explain what we see. It DOES, perhaps, explain the speed with which these fads get tossed around the world nowadays. Regarding guys talking on the internet… I think you need to take internet comments with a shakerfull of salt.… Read more »
Thank you for those comments, that is encouraging to know that not every guy has unrealistic pubic hair/labia size issues. Honestly I don’t know how most guys feel about these kind of things and even though I know the internet gives a skewed perspective, it is not something I can really go around asking! 🙂 Most of my sexual experience was when I was in my 20’s in the 1980’s and it did just not seem to be an issue then. I mean, I never even heard of a woman shaving her pubic hair. I never saw a woman in… Read more »
I would say MOST guys do not have these issues, Jill. If I were to make a gender-based generalization (which I hate), I would say that women are more succeptible to perceiving negative body imagery in the media. Because there’s a huge industry dedicated to making women feel insecure about their bodies, women often think that “everybody” feels a certain way when few guys actually do. I mean, I talk to probably the most openly sexist, female-body-objectifying guys on the planet and there might be a slight perference for trimmed hair as opposed to the natural or the shaved, but… Read more »
Personally, I’ve never wanted to look like a hooker, but I agree, the hooker aesthetic seems to be very much in vogue.
The hooker aesthetic is ALWAYS in vogue and always have been. And that’s not a bad thing, in my book.
But that’s why I pooh-pooh this “OMG, Pr0Ns!!!!1!!11!” view of human sexuality. If we were to establish a new level of sexuality as “OK for public consumption”, people would immediately start pushing that barrier.
And as I’ve pointed out elsewhere, America and Canada, you’re just not very sexy, so please stop obsessing about raunch culture. You simply do not have anything like it. Your main problem, by a long shot, is still sexual oppression.
True Thad. I’ve never had a guy straight up refuse to touch me because things haven’t been completely perfect down there. No one’s ever ‘forced’ me to shave–except to prepare for photo shoots in bikinis or nude, where it’s seen as ‘professional’ to do so. Still, I don’t feel very sexy when I haven’t shaved/waxed/naired–that’s my own insecurity, though. I have a partner who finds me super sexy regardless (and can make me orgasm at the drop of a hat), so it’s really a non-issue for me, just an anecdote.
If anyone wants to see what’s MUCH more likely causing women’s self-esteem issues than porn, take a look at this here, from the Onion…
http://www.theonion.com/articles/cute-8yearold-starting-to-realize-how-much-better,26536/
It ain’t dirty pictures that are giving you body-esteem issues, ladies.
Thad:
You do realize that the oinion is a satirical websight?
My favorite is Dubyah going on a trip to survey devestation & meet with victims of his presidency.
Here’s another good one:
http://www.theonion.com/articles/bush-urges-nation-to-be-quiet-for-a-minute-while-h,2033/
Here are some other good ones:
http://www.theonion.com/video/bush-tours-america-to-survey-damage-caused-by-his,14247/
http://www.theonion.com/video/us-condemned-for-preemptive-use-of-hillary-clinton,14367/
One more:
http://www.theonion.com/articles/girlfriend-changes-man-into-someone-shes-not-inter,1507/
Jill Says: “I am not blaming porn per se, but media images in general, which include porn. I agree that vjazzling is bizarre, personally, and I don’t think men are driving that particular fad! However, I have unfortunately read many comments from men on various sites complaining about women with “ugly” labia and/or pubic hair.” Actually, I think pubic shaving is just the most stupid thing I have ever heard of. But, the images of shaved women I have seen are just creepy. It makes me think I’m looking at a 10year old girl. It feels like this blurring of… Read more »
Women are responsible for choosing to do almost all of that exteme crap, not men forcing or asking them.
There is no universal perfect body. My wife is perfect for and to me but is far from a tall, skinny model type that may be perfect for someone else. It’s a matter of finding the right match.
Just a note to what you said. Africa is a big continent. And parts of Africa are very “Western” if you will. Where did you get the notion that there is “no such thing as breast implants in Africa?” National Geographic specials of people in straw huts do not represent all of Africa. You can get a boob job in Africa just as you can some place else. I’m sure you didn’ t mean any harm in the statement and it wasn’t the main point of what you were saying, but please don’t lean on outdated stereotypes of Africans to… Read more »
Is it possible that the man made the statement in a between guys stream of consciousness random came into my head and out my mouth moment – that inspired the writer to ask a question? He may not have had any intention to act on it. Face it everyone has moments when they blurt out thought free comments – and then move on. Words are not actions and if these words were uttered between two guys in a random convo and we do not have the context it is easy to read all manner of things into it based on… Read more »
Here’s what I think: “respect” is not a constant, but a contextual, socially constructed thing. Mr. W. was saying stuff to Tom that I’m SURE he’d never pass along to his wife or other people. He was probably, in fact, saying that to Tom because he trusted Tom and he’s not quite sure how to deal with his wife’s changing body. His comments to Tom shouldn’t be understood as his final word on the topic of his wife’s body and his relation to it: it’s just one reaction in a given context: a couple of guys shooting the shit, far… Read more »
How about this for an article header, by the way…?
http://www.myniceprofile.com/love-18793.html
If I discussed something like ED with female friends, I would never make fun of my husband or be derogatory about it. I’ve never heard a woman say anything mean about her partner’s penis. Maybe that’s just me and my friends, I don’t know.
It happens Jill – not always cock related, but it happens. I’ve heard “loser” to describe someone who is apparently loved, and I do think that’s on par with “ruined tits”. Giggles about smaller members, comb over, bellies etc
But I don’t think we should be hanging all our hats on a few ill chosen words, and think we understand it all. And let’s not forget that Tom had to write a column after all…what was Tom’s reply to what he said, and what was said in return?
See, I think that’s wrong too. I can’t imagine using the word “loser” in regards to someone I love or talking about an inadequate penis size (or fat folds, hairy ears, etc) to others (especially if they know him). My partner is my lover and my ally. We owe it to each other to not go around and spread shit about each other, and be honest with one another. We should try to work out our problems between ourselves–not to go around airing dirty laundry and being whiny while not actually trying to fix anything. It just seems cruel, humiliating,… Read more »
I do agree with your PoV, Aya. But I’m also aware that many other people out there don’t. I think a lot of people, men and women, are married because they feel that they socially have to be married. Oh, and they like the sex, occasionally. But REALLY they’d rather be hanging around with their same-sex friends. I realize that not all people are this way. I’m not, for example. But I think the majority – or at least a very large minority – of people are that way. And it’s those people whom you’ll hear making these comments. “Respect”,… Read more »
Well, apparently the same socially constructed idea of respect is held in common by all the women who post on the GMP. Perhaps this site attracts more women who don’t just want to be married because it’s some social norm, but because we want a true ally in life – someone with whom we share intimacy and trust including sexually – we treat our men as such and would like to be treated that way in return. I can’t imagine making fun of my partner’s penis when hanging out with female friends. Geesh, the majority of my platonic friends are… Read more »
Yeah, L, but you’d have to admit that’s not a very socially diverse group that hangs out here. What, perhaps 95% white, almost entirely American and Canadian, entirely anglophone…? I don’t even want to guess at class, but the fact that everyone’s got a computer and knows how to use it and is literate indicates that they’re probably in the upper 10% of the world’s population, economically speaking. Oh, and hip to gender issues, which probably tosses them into 1% of the population… Multiply all those filters together and you come up with a pretty tight market focus group. I’m… Read more »
Yes, it is sobering. But then, I’m used to being an outlier. It doesn’t bother me too much to realize I’m in a tiny minority, but it sure does limit one’s choice of mates.
Yes it does. For men, too.
Living where I live, I had to come to the conclusion, quickly, that being white, blue-eyed and a gringo was setting me up for all sorts of female attention that was… well… to use a favorite buzz-word of TGMPM authors and commentators, “inauthentic”.
My wife often complains how “bad a woman” she is by Brazilian standards. Her recent nod to femininity is to paint her nails – but no cuticle removal, please! 😀
I hear you. I’d never make fun of my love, either. I’ve talked with friends on the phone about arguments we’ve had with the understanding that they are free to tell me I was being a jerk after they hear the facts. But I NEVER degrade my guy or even paint him as wrong in the recounting of the arguments. Two trusted friends hear these woes when they happen (not every female I know) and they give solid, mature feedback and suggest solutions perhaps we’ve not thought of in the heat of the argument. That’s it. Otherwise, I am sure… Read more »
I’m very suspicious of people who define “respect” based on what they want to say at any given time. If they want to say degrading things, all they have to do is justify it away. “oh, but I’m with my friends! It’s not offensive if I’m with my friends!”. It’s total bull. Respect is respect. If you find yourself constantly changing your definition of what counts as respect, you’re probably being disrespectful.
That’s just you and your friends, Jill, based on my experience here in Brazil, at least.
If I was Tom and heard a comment like that, I”d go “Yeah, well…”, shrug my shoulders and then change the topic. I certainly wouldn’t give the guy a lecture.
This is in response to anonymous female from yesterday’s comment by me to Aya. I never stated at one time that motherhood is a key to a woman’s happiness, nor did I ever say that a woman should consider having a baby with a man who may or may not be a scum bag to achieve happiness. If a woman chooses to not have a baby because of financial reasons, her lot in life, or if she does not see herself with a suitable partner, those are very valid reasons. I am sure that there are multitudes of other valid… Read more »
A final thought this morning. Maybe this isn’t about lust, but contempt. Mr. Wonderful wasn’t displaying raw animal lust with Tom, he was expressing contempt (and frustration that his lust wasn’t being fulfilled).
I don’t how to help with that other to suggest counseling.
Yes, that’s a good distinction Julie (lust vs. contempt). I wonder if he or a lot of men are really even aware of the level of contempt they’re showing, because these are still considered acceptable terms on which to discuss women and sexual attraction.
@Lf, I think the question is do they care???
Well obviously, some don’t care, but I think many do, if they’re honest about it. I have a lot of male friends who are very caring people in other areas, including as friends. But many just seem to have some sort of denial mechanism that kicks in and/or are not aware of how callous they are when it comes to expectations and discussions about sex.
I can agree with that. Its like when sex is involved they become different people.
Yes, and really, that’s OK too. I think most people want and expect for sex to be something that brings out a side of them they don’t get to show otherwise – to feel free of inhibitions. In that sense it’s OK to be a different person when it comes to sex, but it’s still not OK to be a mean person. And I don’t think some men actually are aware they’re being mean, because they just aren’t thinking about it. They’re just using language that has always been normal for men to use when discussing sex.
LF Says: “Yes, that’s a good distinction Julie (lust vs. contempt). I wonder if he or a lot of men are really even aware of the level of contempt they’re showing, because these are still considered acceptable terms” Men? So far we have a statement of 1 man being dissected. Please don’t project this guys issues onto me or other men. I think there is something more going on in this marriage besides what MR W shared. In any event Mr W sounds like a bit of an ahole. But, for every Mr. W there are also many Miss W’s… Read more »
I’m sure someone has already mentioned this, but breasts are not primarily for the sexual pleasure of men. Their primary use is to feed children when they are new born. Women may or may not choose to do so when they have children as it is their bodies. But how dare he use the term ‘ruined’ to describe his wife’s breasts when they are made for his children! So really he has no right to those breasts or any other breasts because they belong to the woman that they are attached to. I suggest if he wants breasts so badly… Read more »
And if a woman doesn’t have children, her breasts are not fulfilling their primary purpose?
Also, let’s not forget that for some women, breasts are connected to their own sexual pleasure. (And for some women, other women’s breasts are sources of sexual pleasure….)
I am definitely one of those who gets a lot of sexual pleasure out of breast play. It’s all good with me if a guy enjoys my boobs! And if I say so myself, they’re aging well. 😉 But I’d hate to think a guy’s feelings for me would change if they did. I would be very sad if I couldn’t experience pleasure in that way anymore for whatever reason, and I’d expect a guy to be bummed out about that too. But, you know, it happens. Hopefully we could find other things to enjoy that didn’t involve me getting… Read more »
Regarding pleasure and breat play, guys should realize that plastic surgery to “enhance” breasts often results in lessened or even complete elimination of breast sensitivity.
In other words, getting a tit job can be the equivalent of getting a clitdetorectomy for many women.
Not good.
No, and that is one of many reasons I would never even remotely consider getting a boob job, let alone if a guy actually asked me to get one. Yipes.
wellokaythen, Please don’t get me wrong I did not mean to offend. I completely agree to a womans choice to have or not to have children. I myself don’t ever want to have kids, but I just get incredibly frustrated when men tend to think the first thing they are for his their sexual pleasure. When they are completely and utterly ours for using however we choose.
jazz,
No worries. I didn’t feel offended. Sorry if it came across that way. You have a good point.
Not true – there is no particular reason for human breasts to be as enlarged as they are in order to feed babies.
I dunno, Julie. Men say stupid dhit to their male friends in order to gass, just like women say stupid shit to their female friends in order to gas. I’ve heard women say TERRIBLE things about their mates when they’re among other women. I have my doubts about how much of this stuff should be taken seriously. Mr. W. was saying what he said BECAUSE he thought it wouldn’t go beyond Tom. He’d be horrified if he found out we were talking about this on a public site. I agree with Marcus: “Don’t tell Tom about it, because that dude… Read more »
I don’t think that the “oh,but I didn’t mean it” excuse is a valid one,for men or for women. There’s nothing about being with your friends that makes being an ahole okay. The problem isn’t that Mr. Wonderful said these things – it’s that he thought them. The problem is that that’s his attitude.
Marcus–the point we keep coming back to is that lust is not the problem. Breasts are not the problem, any of them. Not at all. The problem is Mr. W talking behind her back, using the word ‘ruined’ in regards to someone he loves, and feeling like he’s a good person just because he didn’t cheat on her with a teenager. That shows her disrespect. I’m sure she knows her tits aren’t as good as they were before childbirth. He doesn’t have to make it worse by embarrassing her. In a healthy relationship, you should be able to deal with… Read more »
Aside from the moral and ethical problems in Mr. Wonderful’s approach to life, he seems to be somewhat out of touch with reality in a lot of ways. It sounds like he never learned much about human reproductive biology, nuanced conversation, or relationship problem-solving.
And, he thinks he can just look around and take his pick of the best-looking teenager he can find, who will of course jump at the chance to become his mistress. What color is the sky on his planet?
His comments suggest he is dangerously stupid or was drunk when he said those things, or both.
LOL, yes. But I’ve heard similar things coming from a lot of guys who don’t otherwise seem stupid or insensitive, and aren’t drunk at the time. It’s almost like there’s a switch in them that shuts of empathy and nuance and anything else, for as long as they’re looking at or thinking about someone’s boobs.
I’m going to pick on an easy target here and suggest that the title could use a little work. The title sort of implies that “breasts” are things that other women have but not his wife. Obviously, if the husband liked his wife’s breasts no one would have a problem with that.
Just between you, me, and the “post” button, the title I suggested said “tits” instead of “breasts”, but the editors thought better of it.
On a side note, I just want to mention how much I’ve appreciated and enjoyed the discussion here. Maybe not “enjoyed” in the laugh-a-minute sense of the word, but even when people have been passionately disagreeing with each other or with me, it has been thoughtful, thought provoking, and for the most part, respectful. There has been far more that I want to respond to than I’ve had opportunity to, but I’m reading it all and keeping up as best I can in this somewhat convoluted threading format. Whether I respond directly or not, thank you for sharing your insights,… Read more »
If she looked at your head shot and said you had a nice ass, that’s not complimentary…. : – )
Touché!
Now, you owe my daughters apologies, because their heads are in that shot, too. (I know it’s a tiny picture, but those aren’t fuzzy maracas.) 😛
Sorry, girls, I meant no disrespect to you. And, I’m sorry that people compliment your dad’s buttocks after seeing his face… 🙂
Crescendo – that’s a sort of emotional blackmail. It’s not fair to hold male honesty over women’s heads with threats of “this is why *you* women get lied to”. Pretty much implying that male honesty stops with only what men think. Please be honest, yes. But please be strong enough to listen in turn how what your saying affects women. Be prepared to dig deeper in the discussion. We do want men to be honest. But we can’t say “okay well men were honest so that’s the end of that.” That’s not fair to women. You feel men are being… Read more »
We want to be loved and valued. And yes, we want to be valued for more of our bodies. But we also want our bodies to be accepted and thought to be beautiful too. That’s understandable, and I respect it. I even feel the same way. I’m wary of over-generalizing from my experience to “most men”, but I can say that in my experience, I have more than once been in the position of saying and doing everything I could, with complete sincerity, to let the woman I was with know how beautiful and attractive I thought her body was,… Read more »
I agree Marcus. Personally I was never insecure about my appearance. I never thought I was a model, but I actually didn’t want to be. I was fine with the way I looked and and in general I always tended to sympathize with my male friends who couldn’t figure out why their wives or girlfriends were so insecure about their looks and obsessive about being prettier. And I certainly never felt ashamed for inciting sexy feelings! But, more recently I understand a lot more where a lot of women are coming from when they do these things. I really do… Read more »
So, LF, do you dye your hair to cover up the grey or do you just let it all hang out?
I’m curious.
Marcus: “….where the obstacle standing in the way of her basking in my appreciation was her own conviction that she was fat, ugly, saggy, or otherwise so repulsive that I couldn’t possibly mean what I said. (This happened in both single and married life.) I’m not saying that describes you, and I hope it doesn’t.” But that’s not really the situation we are talking about is it Marcus? Your article is based on the female response to a man termed “wonderful” who has to sustain his life with his partner by thinking of teenagers and going to see strippers and… Read more »
Just a small note. Please stop making generalizations about “all women”. Not all women have issues with our bodies. I like my body just fine and always have, even though I am no longer 20. Or even 30. My significant other is nearly a decade younger and I feel no nagging pressure to be his age. Nor do I lose sleep at night, sure he’ll leave me for a 19 year old. If he does, he wasn’t deserving of me. I walk around the house butt naked, showing off the body I work to keep in shape. And he loves… Read more »
Todra – I certainly don’t speak for “all” women and never proclaimed I did. I’m glad you have a healthy relationship with your body. I don’t believe most women do though. I believe it’s a struggle for more women then not. And I totally agree we need to be comfortable in our bodies and work on them in healthy ways to feel better about ourselves. We totaly have a responsibilities toward ourselves to do those positive kinds of things. I however think that we also need men to support us in that and I don’t know if that support happens… Read more »
Re: Todra’s comment about how she feels about her body.
EXACTLY.
I love the whole comment, Todra, but most of all this:
I see what you are getting at, but it still doesn’t help. A man still gets tired of you and your body. I’ve been told I’m beautiful, attractive, whatever, and it still doesn’t help in the long run. For example, I had an ex who would leave me in the bed at night so he could go watch porn. I rarely rejected him. The longest we ever went without sex was when I had a medical condition and couldn’t physically have sex with him (I popped out his baby). On top of that he wouldn’t even ask me for sex… Read more »
Alice, I understand where you are coming from. And it must have been painful to endure that form of rejection. If you married him, then I am assuming that he did/has other redeeming characteristics. I definitely think society is adding a harmful side affect of hyper-sexualizing men. However, I can see how this would be good for women too. When women are in their youth and have the power to garner male attention many women think it’s funny how men “think with their dick” and help them in ways they never would other men (fixing computers, fixing a flat, getting… Read more »
“if we find something less than what we’d like (like our weight), then we should work to improve those things, if possible.”
You’re very specific here. You’re referring to weight. However are you suggesting that Mr. Wonderful’s wife should have surgery so that she looks more like the teenagers and strippers and porn actresses that it seems to be so very reasonable (?!) for men to prefer to lust after?
Dear Erin,
Back in the day, National Geographic was also denounced by alarmists as being pornographic.
If we were to adapt the burqa as required dress for women, certain people would claim that photos of ankles drive young men insane with unrealistic expectations of the human body and incentives to masturbate.
Exactly. You start to feel that you can’t win, that none of the love and effort and devotion you put into your relationship with your man and your children counts because you don’t have the tits of a 17 year old anymore, and all in all, he’d rather be with strippers or watching porn that be with you. It makes you feel like you can’t win, like you shouldn’t even bother.
Erin–I’m so glad I read this even though I cried because you wrote what I feel. I DO feel defeated, like there’s no end to exercising, eating celery, only wearing push-up bras etc, just to feel attractive to men. And I don’t mean to demonize men, but when I don’t do these things I feel worthless because most men simply do not notice me.
Agreed here. In the first two years of my relationship with my fiance, when I finally decided to stop dressing incredibly nice in clothes that choked the life out of me, shaving my legs every forking day, and other things because it took a ridiculous amount of effort, my fiance started to harp on me about why I didn’t do those things anymore and only did them on dates. Needless to say, I was incredibly offended because he himself never put much effort into his appearance outside of the hygienic things, and I never complained because I think he’s damn… Read more »
🙁 Sorry to hear that, Amber. I hope your fiance is growing up a bit.
Wait a minute, am I reading this right? You stopped putting as much effort into your appearance and smoothness after a while, and for you that was perfectly acceptable once you got past a certain point in your relationship. At some early point the effort wasn’t ridiculous and then it became ridiculous? What changed in your relationship, exactly? From his point of view, he may be feeling like he’s being taken for granted, that now that he’s committed he’s not worth the effort he used to be worth. For many men in this situation, the message received is “now that… Read more »
Anonymous, I doubt anything changed in Amber’s relationship to her fiance except the normal things that happen when a couple moves in together. “Dating” is kind of a fantasy world in which the woman is often putting an incredible amount of time, effort, money and personal discomfort in order to get her looks up to men’s expectations. That might be OK a few times a week when you’re dating, but when you live with someone, it’s crazy to expect that level of maintenance to go on every minute of every day. So most couples get all dolled up and have… Read more »
I’m trying to get at why there is a change in expectations between “dating” and “living together.” I agree that’s pretty normal, or at least very common. I’ve experienced it myself. But, just because something is common or considered “normal” doesn’t mean it’s acceptable or that we can’t question it. Is it like you’re maintaining a big illusion when you’re dating, and once you move in together, it’s more about being real with each other? At some point all that effort is worth it, and then at another point it is only worth it on special occasions. Is it just… Read more »
A lot of fashionable clothes are pretty uncomfortable to wear on a daily basis, I think that’s what Amber is getting at. You shouldn’t expect your girlfrienf to wear 4-inch high heels and a mini skirt around the house. Nor should she be expected to put on heavy makeup if all you are doing is going out to walk the dog or whatever. That doesn’t mean looking like a slob, it means having the ability to relax and feel comfortable.
Yeah, I’ll say that stuff is uncomfortable. A former boyfriend told me that he had never seen his last GF without makeup, even though he lived with her for 5 years. She wouldn’t take it off until he was already in bed, and she would get up before he did and put it on. That’s just very sad.
Yes, I think there’s a certain amount of illusion involved with dating and attracting men’s attention. I think people do a “mating dance” to attract each other’s attention and it’s understood (or should be!) that there’s a certain amount of fantasy involved, which isn’t sustainable in a real relationship. Hopefully by the time you get into a real relationship, you realize there are better and more substantial things about being with this person to take the place of the generic fantasies that we use to attract each other. Mind you I’m probably the wrong person to ask about this (or… Read more »
Oh, and yes, it’s because you spend a lot more “non date” time together. To me it’s not taking someone for granted, it’s learning to appreciate them on a new and deeper level where you know and love them for who they are. You can still have your fantasy nights, but it’s not about “lowering expectations” to acknowledge that you’ve moved into a new phase of your relationship. It’s just a different set of expectations which, IMO, are better.
I completely agree with Anonymous. Women shouldn’t start the game that way if they aren’t comfortable with that level of primping. It’s false advertising. And then we get pissed when men feel like they got a bait and switch. DATE a man looking the way you intend to look most of the time – the way that makes you comfortable. That is how I’ve always dated. Now I happen to like being fashionable and putting some effort into myself, but I’m not one for shaving the legs daily (or even weekly). I don’t always wear a full face of makeup.… Read more »
Amber says: “In the first two years of my relationship with my fiance, when I finally decided to stop dressing incredibly nice in clothes that choked the life out of me, shaving my legs every forking day, and other things because it took a ridiculous amount of effort, my fiance started to harp on me about why I didn’t do those things anymore” Amber, a thought occurred to me while reading your comment, and I want to try an articulate it in an understandable way. I guess the best way to phrase this is in the form of a question.… Read more »
I completely agree with you. On all points here.
Good points, I have always hated wearing a lot of makeup, and so I don’t wear much, even on dates. Big heels hurt my feet. I like dressing casually so that’s how I dress every day. I try to look nice and sexy but I don’t try to look like I’m going out to a club every day of the week. So, the guys I’ve dated are the kind of guys who are fine with that. They like the fact that I can spontaneously leave the house without an hour of preparation. My hobbies are down to earth things. I… Read more »
Hey Jill: That sounds a lot more honest then doing those things in the courtship phase, then stopping them after marriage. Of all the things women are expected to do, high heels seem like the worst. My wife doesn’t wear them, and I don’t have a problem with that. I don’t know about other men, but I’ve never really looked at female footwear as anything but footwear. I also don’t think that high heels add as much to the shape of a leg as people think. I haven’t really noticed a greater tendency for women in heels to have shapelier… Read more »
I agree, other than the minority of men who have a fetish for high heels, I haven’t found that men really care much about women’s footwear. At least not as much as women think they do. The whole shoe thing is a mystery to me. I’ve had foot problems since I was a child (had to wear orthopedic shoes for several years) and so I’ve never be able to wear stylish footwear. Oh well.
Jessica, I’ve read maybe 2 or 3 of your comments. You seem to be a very nice young lady, if the comments I’ve read are any indication. Let me tell you that a kind sweet personality is far more attractive long term than any physical attribute. No matter how attractive, nobody wants to be with a mean, snarky, selfish attitude long term. I have friends who are happily married to women who aren’t incredibly attractive but so incredibly sweet that they (their husbands) found them to be irresistible once they got to know them. FYI, most people aren’t noticed,… Read more »
Eric, thank you for your advice. I do appreciate it as I am trying to change my attitudes. I don’t want to think this way about men, but I do. I dislike the way men approach me in bars, grocery stores, the airport, etc. and I feel that all they are seeing in me is just my looks. I really, really want to adopt the belief that personality is more valuable and fulfilling than attractiveness, but that’s just not the message I’m getting from most men. Which is why I am here…learning how to discern what / who the good… Read more »
Jessica,
When they first meet you, that’s all they have to go on.
Using my situation as a common example: When I first saw my wife I was immediately smitten by her cute, pretty face, and amazing figure. However, I didn’t fall in love with her body. I fell in love with a sweet, loving young lady who has pretty and curvaceious. My ideal.
I had plenty of other attractive women who lived far closer to me but I fell in love with her.
“You see why it’s hard for women to believe in men when men give this duel message about their looks yes?” You are being overly dramatic and overly negative, and are simply wrong. Most women don’t find it “hard to to believe in men.” I personally have hundreds of women friends (whom I know by name and vice-versa) who don’t believe that at all. My wife certainly doesn’t nor my sisters, sisters-in-law, daughters, mother, cousins, or neices. Jessica – My advice is to seek out happily married women, women married to good men and ask for their insight/advice/counsel. The GMP… Read more »
Eric: “Let me tell you that a kind sweet personality is far more attractive long term than any physical attribute. No matter how attractive, nobody wants to be with a mean, snarky, selfish attitude long term. I have friends who are happily married to women who aren’t incredibly attractive but so incredibly sweet that they (their husbands) found them to be irresistible once they got to know them.” Eric, while I appreciate your words because I think they come from a good place, it’s not fair to expect women to be happy with a man liking her personality only, and… Read more »
Erin – Sorry. My response to you is above.
I said: “You see why it’s hard for women to believe in men when men give this duel message about their looks yes?” You responded: You are being overly dramatic and overly negative, and are simply wrong. What am I being “overly dramatic” about? Saing that men give this duel message about female looks from my female perspective is wrong? To who? You? It might not be your experience but it’s been mine. Are you going to tell me my experience is “wrong”? You should check out the “why women aren’t crazy” thread because you totally just degraded my thoughts,… Read more »
“What am I being “overly dramatic” about?” You are superimposing your feelings onto women in general. You are taking some guys comments on a website and imputing those feelings onto the other 3.5 billion men. You are thereby excluding the many happily (albeit imperfectly) married women who don’t share your views of men and happily married (albeit imperfect) men who are good and loyal husbands. “Are you going to tell me my experience is “wrong”? ” No. That’s not what I meant. Your experience is not wrong but it’s just that – YOUR experience. I’m saying to get out more.… Read more »
As a follow up to that, Jessica and Eric, there are also contentedly married feminists 😉 It’s true! It can happen! I’m one.
Determine what your expectations are for a husband, friend and lover. Find people who meet those expectations for the most part. Find men who like women and find ways to like men (if you don’t already). Be open to having really honest conversations about what you like and need, and be ready to listen back.
Love is important and it happens between feminists and men, it does!
Be a humanist, find a humanist.
Sorry, but I’m noticing something.
When men talk about their expectations for a wife or partner, they are told that they are being controlling, patriarchical and unrealistic.
Meanwhile, women should sett expectations for a husband and a partner and keep to them. That’s neither controlling nor unrealistic.
What do people have to say about a “good man” gender game that essentially believes that men should have no expectations but that women NEED expectations?
Jessica:
I have to ask–where are you trying to meet men? If you’re looking in a bar or club or even parties then I’m not surprised that these men are concentrating on the exterior.
Maybe you should try meeting men at church, bookstore, grocery store, book clubs or some other venue. Men in clubs literally have nothing better to go on than looks.
You women (well, most of you) commenting like that, are saying that men should love you forever and unconditonally, no matter what. Well, that’s an ideal, not reality. It would be very nice and wise, but 99% people are not that perfect… Instead of relating with a man for what “he is”, you relate to a man for what you think “he should be”. There’s no love in this attitude, there’s quite a lot of egocentrism, and even some narcissism. We “real” men (not actors in a chick flick), think and do stupid things, alas!, because that’s what real human… Read more »
Crescendo, I understand what you are getting at, but I wonder what you mean by “relating to a man for what he is” in the context of a husband who thinks his wife’s tits are “ruined.” How is she supposed to relate to him, with that in mind? Is she supposed to be okay with him thinking that her body is ruined? I’m not being sarcastic, I’m interested in your point of view on this.
@crescendo
Let’s be real. This guy is rationalizing. If it wasn’t “ruined tits” it would be something else. He’s trying to justify his behavior by blaming his wife.
I’m not sure if this is being portrayed as an imperfection. It almost seems like its being glamorized.