Veronica Grace has some thoughts to add to the ongoing discussion of Nice Guys vs. Bad Boys.
I recently did a blog about my 13 year old son’s thoughts on respect. It made one small (in my opinion) mention of my son’s perception that “the boys at school that are not respectful to girls are mostly the ones that have girlfriends.” I thought that was a very small part of his insights but that is what most of the comments centered on. Having been out of the dating pool for 6 years now I was surprised to find that the “Girls only date bad boys”/ “Women only like assholes”/ “nice guys always lose” discussion is still going on. And that it was stuck in the same place it had been when I was dating. Men talking about it as if it’s something women are doing *to* them. Women frustratedly explaining that being pissed that a woman isn’t having sex with you means you aren’t actually a “nice guy.” And around and around we go.
Here’s what this old married lady thinks about it. An old married lady who BTW is married to a man who rates so far away from bad boy/asshole or even being assertive that he could hardly speak in my presence for the first 15 years I knew him. And unlike Raj he doesn’t drink, so no help there.
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So here’s the thing. This isn’t about you. This isn’t about how women are doing this terrible thing that leaves you alone. This is about a terrible system that is leaving many people in bad situations. This isn’t about women thinking to themselves “Oh that’s a nice guy…but I’d really prefer an unhealthy relationship with that asshole over there!” This is about a system that brainwashes almost everyone to some extent.
One big problem I see in how people approach this is in the over emphasis of false dichotomies. First you have the women vs men dichotomy, as if they are opponents in this issue. Then you have the bad boy/asshole vs nice guy dichotomy as if all men fit into one box or the other. Then after creating this shallow dichotomy, you assign winners and losers as if both “sides” are in the same game. But they’re not.
The issue of women choosing men who are perceived to be anything from aggressive to abusive is created by the system. It’s not women’s evil secret plan to punish you for not being the jerk they have asked you not to be. It’s complicated, but here are a few things to consider.
Not all “bad boys” are jerks. Women live in the same media filled, culturally influenced world you do. If you are feeling the pressure to be hyper masculine, they are feeling the pressure to want someone who fits that stereotype. Some women feel in some part that their value is determined by the men they can get. That doesn’t mean that they want jerks, that means they want the man you may feel pressured to be. We are all taking in messages every day that tell us that aggressive/bold/daring equals masculine and that attracting masculine attention is the measure of femininity. Some women are caught in between society’s messages and what they truly need in a partner to be healthy and happy.
“But what about the guys who really are jerks?” you may ask. In a society that has as high a rate of domestic abuse as we do, we are going to have children who grow up to be drawn to abusive dynamics. People who are drawn to abusive partners may be playing out abusive dynamics they grew up with. Gender is not the point here, the point is what happens in your family as you grow up has a deep, often unconscious influence on you. This means you may be absolutely unwilling to be with someone who even raises their voice when they are angry. On the other hand it may mean that you keep coming back to people who treat you like crap, or it may mean that you become someone who treats people like crap. Or both.
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You may still be saying “But why do they always go for the jerks? They should have figured it out by now.” and my question for you is, if every woman you are interested in is interested in men who are nothing like you, what are you doing to examine why you are drawn to the same kinds of women all of the time? Because there are plenty of women who have no interest in jerks.
If you aren’t finding any of those women, then you have as much of an issue of being drawn to the wrong people as women who are only into jerks. I don’t say this from some high and mighty place above anyone. I say this from the perspective of someone who, until I got married, ALWAYS picked unavailable men. Never jerks, but always men who were not interested in me, or who lived thousands of miles away or who were gay…you get the picture. I even spent some time in the “why do guys always go for the girls who treat them like crap?!?” camp.
That’s right, there are plenty of men who always choose women who treat them badly. Having a bad partner picker is not gender specific. We all have our dynamics to play out. It’s not until we become aware of them that we can begin to change them.
I’m always surprised to hear men who in any other situation would demand that you not put men in such limited boxes…go straight into nice guy/bad boy dichotomy as if there are only two kinds of men. There is a continuum, and along that continuum there are infinitely varied and complicated men. Everyone has some mixture of light and shadow, some areas where they are good and some areas where they are screwed up. So while it would be great if you would stop judging women for not being interested in you, maybe it’s also time to consider not sentencing other men to a two box judgment. Yes, some people are assholes, some people are even abusive, but how does it help you to focus on that in this context? If you want to focus on assholes and abusive people, I suggest focusing that energy on the system and how we can change it so everyone has a better chance of growing up healthy. You can start by not putting someone in the asshole box and writing them off as a stereotype instead of a person. You can also take some time to think about what defines someone as a “jerk” and where do those characteristics come from?
The first guy I fell in love with was an “only likes girls who treat him like crap” guy at the time. I suffered over that for a long time, but one night he hurt my feelings intensely and I got bitchy with him. His whole attitude toward me changed. We’d been friends for 7 years. The first time I was anything but totally nice to him, he suddenly treated me like he was interested. I realized that night that I could have him. This guy who I wanted, who I thought I was in love with, I could have him. All I had to do was treat him like crap. It was suddenly clear to me that it wasn’t him that I wanted. What I wanted was a good relationship with him. I wanted a romantic relationship that was as healthy as I thought our friendship was, not a train wreck with him in a starring role. What I wanted was an impossibility based on how he was wired and where he was in his life journey. Eventually, he did end up with a really great woman who treats him well. The interesting thing is that very time I spend time with them I am so thankful that it’s her and not me. The dynamic that works for them wouldn’t work for me.
So I’m asking you to consider that maybe the “assholes” are not getting what you want. If what you want is a healthy relationship, then you have to find a healthy person who is a good fit for you. Even if the person you want (the one who is only interested in assholes) decided to be with you, it wouldn’t be the relationship you want because that person isn’t set up for a healthy relationship. When they are, they will be drawn to healthier people and dynamics. They still may not be drawn to you.
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Part of the problem with the “women only date assholes” complaint is that often women hear it from men they aren’t attracted to that they don’t think are nice. It seems that for many men it is much easier to feel like they were rejected because they are something good, instead of facing their fear that they are not good. This is part of the system we need to change, because someone not being attracted to you does not necessarily mean you suck. It means that you are not a fit for them. Once people can accept that they may not be a fit for someone they are attracted to, without feeling like it’s a failure, the need to keep screaming about “women only date assholes” will stop.
It’s not all on men of course, a lot of the ways women tell men they aren’t interested are meant to “let them down easy,” so instead of saying “I’m just not attracted to you.” They say “I’m sorry, I’m attracted to someone else.” That is part of the system. Women are trained to “be nice.” They are put in the position of not wanting to hurt a “nice guy’s” feelings. But that is only half the problem. The other issue is that a woman, who doesn’t take the blame onto herself for the “I’m not interested,” is risking abuse. That’s right, the women you think only date assholes are very possibly trying to avoid having men be assholes to them.
It happens all the time. The idea that ‘a man’s self worth is wrapped up in his ability to get women’ makes some men mean when a woman says no. Add on top of that this stupid idea that the media spreads that what women really want is someone who will chase them and you now have a situation where saying “I’m not interested.” doesn’t work. Saying “No, thank you” most often gets you either called a bitch (or a slut, which is interesting…why does saying no get me called a slut?) or a guy who doesn’t take the no seriously.
How many books are there out there that tell men that women really want them, they are just playing hard to get? How many movies are there showing that when men don’t take no for an answer that the women eventually give in? This is part of the system we have to stop. In the meantime women have learned that saying “No, thank you.” is not effective. They have learned that taking the blame and saying they are with someone else or attracted to someone else is their best bet to get out of an awkward situation with as little abuse and awkwardness as possible. Change that and more women will be willing to say “No, Thank you.” instead of “You’re a really great guy, but I’m still hung up on my ex.”
—Photo mlakner/Flickr
Veroncia, great piece! I loved how you talked about how women really aren’t trying to punish men. How women live in the same media filled, culturally influenced world as men do. I see a lot of men who grabble with the messages about masculinity they had forced on them from society. Women, unfortunately, have had those same messages delivered to them. It would be great to ask women to challenge their own ideas of masculinity and if their lived lives reflect what they believe. And if they don’t, what steps they can take to have their real lives reflect what… Read more »
One important factor most people usually forget when we talk about nice guys and bad guys is, most of the time, bad guys are more physically attractive and confident than the nice guys, which usually looks nerdy, don’t know style/fashion, and shy/awkward. Just remember your high school days. So its not weird at all that many women prefer the former. Not because they bad, but because they are more attractive, hot, and confident ( attractive people usually are more confident because of their looks ). I’m not saying all bad guys are attractive ( or all attractive guys are bad… Read more »
Usually,absent from this kind of discussion are the exceptions to the presumptive narrative that all women behave in good faith.The denial about the influence of nature on how behave in mate selection reflects this point. We like to believe that the rational minds are always in perfect control.But self-deception and denial are persistent characteristics of identity.We willfully decieve ourselves and others about who we are with alarming frequency.There is not in existence enough Pc language to cover up the not so pleasant complexities of the human character.I don’t suspect that the bad boy goodboy contradiction itself troubles men.It is the… Read more »
My son “looks” like the proverbial bad guy, dreads down to the middle of his back, rough and tough big guy and has women approaching him all the time. He’s had a few relationships that were going well UNTIL they got to the point where SHE wanted to have sex and HE believes in waiting until marriage. So long Charlie! Literally because his name is Charlie. All is well until these womwn find out he’s not a player …, pretty sad
Not wanting to be with your son because he isn’t a player is a very different thing from leaving a relationship because you are sexually incompatible.
There are both many men and women that would not remain with a partner that wanted to wait until marriage. There are probably also men and women that WILL remain with a partner to marriage. That is more of a sexually incompatibility then it is a reflection that these women left him becaues of what you hypothsized.
Power is sexy in men anyway you look at it, violence or the threat of inflicting it is an aphrodisiac to a fair number of females, a bad boy is a small caricature of that reality in a male, a lot of solid evolutionary studies proved it denying it in a temporary politically correct atmosphere amounts to wishful thinking.
Veronica, A good effort. However, I think your logic and conclusions are flawed. Let’s take it from the top. 1. “This is about a terrible system that is leaving many people in bad situations.” No. The behavior of many women have very little to do the “system.” It’s just their individual beliefs, conduct, and behavior(s). 2. “The issue of women choosing men who are perceived to be anything from aggressive to abusive is created by the system.” Again, you are simply wrong. Women freely choose to consort with men whom they find attractive. Unfortunately, many women, especially when young, opt… Read more »
“Women freely choose to consort with men whom they find attractive. Unfortunately, many women, especially when young, opt for men for sexual relations that are players,…..Yet the message those same women send out is they are looking for a “nice guy.” The reality is that most women just are not interested in fucking a nice guy. They (nice guys) are not viewed as sexually attractive… The issue for most men is when a woman SAY she wants man type X, but seems to always be with man type Y. People are what they do, not whom they SAY.” Yes. I think… Read more »
Great article. I felt tortured for 13 years living with the father of my children out of the sense of duty to the kids having both parents. He was utterly disrespectful of my continual denial of his advances. I would outright tell him, “no, don’t touch me, I don’t want you to touch me, have sex, kiss, etc. of course it was his habit to press harder and harder for me to be intimate with him. It came to the point of screaming, “don’t touch me! You smell horrible, leave me alone, I can’t stand being pressured by you!” The… Read more »
And now for the politically incorrect advice……Generally, do not listen much to advice women give you for dating women because they are not a man who dates women. If you want advice, ask the successful men, ask the ones who are married and have been for a long time, ask the pickup artists if you’re interested in casual relationships. Women can give you some ideas but it will be largely based on what they think they want, it may work, it may not. And quite frankly some women say one thing and do another (just as some men do) so… Read more »
Nice guys eh….Of all the guys I know, there are plenty of nice guys who are dating, and plenty who are not. Of the assholes I know, far more of them are dating. Guys that treat women like shit, guys I know who are abusive, misogynists, etc, are dating. Thing is they probably had the confidence to ask them out, quite often the nice guys who are single have no backbone and women walk over them. When I was too nice I got fuck all female attention, but these days I am a bit of a cocky asshole and get… Read more »
The line that spoke out to me: “…because someone not being attracted to you does not necessarily mean you suck. It means that you are not a fit for them.” I had a problem with this in high school (and still do somewhat). I would feel that I was never good enough for any girl because I would always strike out on the girl that I did find attractive. Only until after I graduated high school did I begin (but never fully) realize that it wasn’t me or her, but that we were not compatible with each other. I may… Read more »
Totally! I struggled with that one a lot, I was close friends with each of the guys I wanted so I thought for sure that we must be compatible. But looking back that was not the case. Or maybe we were compatible for me since I was looking for someone who was not available and they were enjoying the attention, but not compatible in the way I thought.
As usual,you present a well-reasoned article,raising points that are not often considered. I am not one to give all of my power away by surrendering so completely to the system.Besides,after all,we are THE system.As such,the system reflects our mores and values. Which explains the persistence and longevity of our dysfunctions.That and our denial of the darker side of human nature.I suspect that men feel victimized by this behavior in women because of the role of pursuer they still must assume to have a chance at a relationship.So men try hard to understand the rules and mixed messages seem part and… Read more »
If “nice guys” want women who want “nice guys”, why do these “nice guys” care about women who want “bad boys”? I don’t understand why guys get so wrapped up in this nice guys vs. bad boys thing. If she wants a “bad boy” and you’re a “nice guy” why are you wasting your time? Move on. There are plenty of women in the world who want nice guys, but you’re not likely to find them at parties or bars. (Try the library maybe?) Essentially, what is the core issue here? Nice guys losing women to bad boys? Is a… Read more »
“If “nice guys” want women who want “nice guys”, why do these “nice guys” care about women who want “bad boys”? I don’t understand why guys get so wrapped up in this nice guys vs. bad boys thing. If she wants a “bad boy” and you’re a “nice guy” why are you wasting your time? Move on. There are plenty of women in the world who want nice guys, but you’re not likely to find them at parties or bars. (Try the library maybe?)” A few issues. There are plenty of guys who are told by a particular woman that… Read more »
Maybe it’s not useful to pay too much attention to what people say about WHY they are not interested in you. Whatever they say is likely not true or not the whole truth. Or they nay not even know why, they just aren’t feeling it. Imagine a woman likes you but you find her unattractive. She asks “why don’t you want to date me?” Do you say, “you are a 3 on a scale of 10”? Do you say, “you are too fat for me?” Do you say, “your breasts are too small and your butt is too big”? No,… Read more »
Trouble is if you think they aren’t interested now, do you later try again thinking that they’re just busy or what not, or do you realize she isn’t ever going to be attracted? I’d rather them say I don’t feel that way about you, I’m sorry. Saves more pain in the long run!
I’d like to put in my two cents as a woman. I really dislike mean men. I would not go out with one if I was paid for it. I did grow up in a household where my father was not abusive. He was neglectful, but also he did not overtly abuse me in any way. Maybe I already had this pattern ingrained from the time that I was small… who knows? I found someone who could be tender with me, sharing, funny, happy, and still be himself. He abhors violence unless it centers around family and home protection (as… Read more »
But in places with access to abortion, wouldn’t it follow that it is actually men who are nearly as/just as vulnerable now since they too get STI’s, there are threats of rape, false accusations of rape, abusive women, no access to abortion or financial abortion so any pregnancy is out of his hands for the decision, etc? Or are you referring to instincts based off evolution?
I agree that the knife thing might not have had to do with the bad boy image at all. It was just something made you stand out. You might have gotten the same reaction had you pulled out a guitar, started telling jokes or stories that drew a crowd, did a backflip, or showed off your pictures from your trip to South Africa. Or instead of a group of girls, you had the opportunity to just talk to one and give some indication of who you are. Small talk at parties gets old and doesn’t show anything about you, and… Read more »
“People who are drawn to abusive partners may be playing out abusive dynamics they grew up with…” My BFF is trapped in a marriage with an abusive guy…but he had us all fooled in the beginning…he initially presented himself as the fun, hilarious guy who could party and cook up a storm and be the ultimate buddy….But now that he is married with children with a big mortgage hanging over his head and a high pressure job…he is bursting at the seams mentally and emotionally and sometimes physically…we have tried to intervene but my friend has chosen to stay in… Read more »
Good point that a seemingly nice normal person can reveal their dark, not-nice side over time or under different circumstances. Just like a seemingly rough, surly person can be a real poet. I think most people, not just men or just women, have a good helping of both Nice and Bad. What side of them you see in any given moment is a little bit up to chance. Another point is that people have different meters for what constitutes a Bad person. We all know that some of the qualities attributed to Bad Boys are actually good personality traits but… Read more »
“Good point that a seemingly nice normal person can reveal their dark, not-nice side over time or under different circumstances. Just like a seemingly rough, surly person can be a real poet.”
Yes! Beautifully said! I have absolutely known people who everyone thought was fantastic who were abusive to the ones closest to them and people who everyone perceives as scary who is actually a great person. https://goodmenproject.com/everyday-life-2/snapshots-man-with-neck-tattoos/
@ Leia
“she has no education and two kids and her family tells her to forgive him and to just stay and endure the abuse…”
Maybe she’s afraid that he’s the best she going to get or that no other guy will want her because she has kids. She might be hoping that the great guy will come back. She probably needs to talk to a DV counselor so they can devise an exist strategy.
@John— yup, you are right…her husband is a very hard-working, intelligent guy who pulls in 6 figures ….and my family has met his family…and even some of my family members have remarked how devoted he seems (at least at that place in time) to his family…. Yes, I do think she wishes that “great guy” will come back….I, unfortunately, see that he has shown her his ugly scarier side and he needs to keep them under his control….it was scary seeing her pick up the phone literally every 5 minutes the last time she was over with her family (he… Read more »
The issue of women choosing men who are perceived to be anything from aggressive to abusive is created by the system. It’s not women’s evil secret plan to punish you for not being the jerk they have asked you not to be. It’s complicated, but here are a few things to consider. I think the reason guys think that it is some secret plot is because on the flip side (asking why guys go for terrible women) the conversation isn’t as forgiving. Not much room for “its the system at work”. Its usually “its the guy at work”. Maybe after… Read more »
That is part of what I hope we’re working on here on GMP, that the discussion should always be about the system and the individual and how they interact. Too often we expect men to be all knowing and never make mistakes or have issues to deal with. If you have had women tell you that they don’t date nice guys or even more talk to you that way then I think they clearly fall into the group of women that you would not be able to have a healthy relationship with. Whatever is going on with them is not… Read more »
@ Veronica Grace “If you have had women tell you that they don’t date nice guys or even more talk to you that way then I think they clearly fall into the group of women that you would not be able to have a healthy relationship with. Whatever is going on with them is not going to fit with your needs and values.” It could be a life stage. I knew a woman who has three children. She used to date “bad boys”. The father of her first child was abusive. He used to beat her. She left him and… Read more »
It was absolutely a life phase with my friend who I talked about. At some point he shifted and ended up married to a great women. He just wasn’t in that place when I was interested. I had to grow out of my issues that made me interested in only guys who weren’t interested. Which is an interesting point too. I wanted him because he was not interested, and he didn’t want me because I was interested. Not that I would have run away if he had eventually been interested but it certainly shows my partnership in the dynamic.
There are some guys like me who run from sexually aggressive women even if I find them sexually attractive.
I can’t really say for sure if I was sexually aggressive, I am sure that the answer to that would be very dependant on the person defining it, and how many points I got or lost based on having a vagina. But I can tell you that it appeared to me that sexually aggressive was exactly his type. What he wasn’t into was people who seemed to like him. I wondered if he thought that if you liked him you must be a loser, but if you didn’t like him that much you must be worth knowing.
As I said in the other article, regarding couples dynamics and “you wouldn’t want to be with that person who are having a bad relationship anyway”:
Connection and communication are two-way streets. Just because persons A and B doesn’t have connection, doesn’t mean that A is inherently incapable of having connection and healthy relationship.
“Connection and communication are two-way streets. Just because persons A and B doesn’t have connection, doesn’t mean that A is inherently incapable of having connection and healthy relationship.”
Exactly, that’s one of the really important points I hope people get.
And. Thanks for the write-down. It is something that needs to be discussed. Just my 2 cents: I don’t have the habit of putting people in boxes that they haven’t squarely put themselves in, i.e. abusive, unfaithful, notorious “womanizer” that you thought you could “put straight”, and so on. I don’t know if my definition of niceguy/badboy is off the mark, but usually “Nice guys” are your friends that you summon to carry your boxes when you’re moving out, while yourself, maybe simultaniously, are out banging the “Bad boy”. (I’m not kidding. This have actually happened to me. Not that… Read more »
FlyingKal, I think that defining what a nice man is might be the problem. No one, male or female, appreciates anyone who does everything for them. That’s called being a doormat, not nice. Little gestures or helping a woman once that you don’t know is okay, but being there for her every time she needs something done around the house without asking for a handyman’s salary is selling yourself short, in my opinion. Likewise, I’ve seen a lot of men who get really tired of women who hang around and fill their every need… eventually they get neglected and treated… Read more »
Tiff, I think that there is a continuum of “not wanting people who are nice” from the only wanting someone who treats you like complete crap and on down to people who have an idea that if you will “do anything for them” that it isn’t a challenge of whatever they think. But I don’t believe that everyone is on that continuum. I’m not someone who is comfortable with having someone do things for me but my husband tries to do everything he can for me. I try to do everything I can for him. Within healthy boundaries of course.… Read more »
@Veronica Grace,
I try to help out if there’s people I know, at least fairly well, who are in need and actually asks for help. If I feel like I’m baing taken advantage of (as has happened on numerous occassions) I don’t usually repeat the deed until I see some kind of “remorse” from the offending person (or is “blackmailed” into it by family).
It’s really hard to process that this in any way makes me a bad person, as in a doormat or “Nice Guy”?
Being kind or helpful never makes you a bad person or a doormat. Doormat IMO is a shaming term people use to make other people feel bad for being vulnerable, because for many doing nice things for people is being vulnerable. As for the nice guy thing. I hate that term. I have an aversion to the word “nice” I think that nice is something that can come from kindness or from manipulation, it describes behavior not intention. Who is more nice than the car salesman who is trying to sell you a car? Then the “nice guy” label has… Read more »
Hi Veronica, and thanks for your answer.
I also think that the word “nice” has become a shaming term people use to make other people feel bad, much like what you say about “doormat”.
But as it is, thanks for your distinction, and perspective, on “nice” vs. “kind”. I like that. 🙂
Hi Tiff,
No one, male or female, appreciates anyone who does everything for them.
Where did I ever say I did “everything” for anyone…?
This is basically what I meant about the real issue mostly being circumnavigated.
How about not bringing up a hyperbole that is most easily dismissed in the discussion?
Take the example of Don Draper… ridiculously handsome, well-dressed, always ready to verbally defend his position… but he goes about life all wrong. Every time I look at Jon Hamm in that role, I think wow he’s hot, but a relationship would never happen in real life if his character were real because he’s a jerk. Every single one of his intimate female relationships always ends in heartbreak or pain and he’s never satisfied because he’s never figured out the secret to being a good husband, father or even a friend. He’s all about himself, and you can see he… Read more »
I had gone to a lawn party that a friend’s sister threw. I didn’t know anybody there except for my friend and his sister. I wasn’t familiar with her neighborhood and so I brought my balisong, butterfly knife, with me. The day was warm so even though I rarely wear shorts I decided to. There were a few other guys and several women there. I tried striking up a conversation with a few of the women, but I’m not particularly smooth with the ladies and they didn’t seem interested. I had resigned myself to contenting myself with the BBQ then… Read more »
That’s a really good example of the some women want bad boys but that doesn’t necessarily mean jerks part of the equation because even though you were appealing to the “bad boy” thing you were no more of a jerk than you were before you were perceived that way.
Um, I have a butterfly knife. A big one. Does that make me a “bad boy”? No. The items you possess do not define your character. Now as for why the women weren’t talking to you? You were probably just…boring? That is until you started whipping your knife around. It was something of interest, and honestly, I don’t think a lot of people have even seen a butterfly knife. That being said, I’m positive that you’ve seen how people flock to a person playing an instrument at a party. It’s the same thing. Also, did said women continue to talk… Read more »
@ Atypical “Also, did said women continue to talk to you once you had put the knife away? Did you get any of their phone numbers? Did you see any of these women after this party? Are you dating any of them? Or sleeping with any of them? If not….then your claim of women wanting “bad boys” is invalid.” I was only flicking the knife for a minute or two. All the conversation occurred after the knife was put away and initially it was mostly about my martial arts experience. Then it went to how I knew their friend and… Read more »
But yet you talked to them, even though they were ignoring you until you dropped your knife….
@ Atypical There was an instance in a bar also. My friends invite me out. There were about 10 of us. For some reason I was just antsy. I didn’t feel like going out, but went because of social obligations. The guys were holding up a wall again. A friend who is a second degree black belt decided to aim a round house kick to my head. I blocked it and gave him a light side kick to the ribs. I didn’t feel like drinking with them so went over to the bar, picked up one of those long straws… Read more »
Hi John Anderson
As a woman it is impossible to see that to carry and use an army knife turns you into a bad boy?
You must have misunderstood .
I often carry an army knife myself in my backpack, it comes in handy.
John, what gets me here is that this is absolutely not unique to women. Yet, the conversation is always about how women like “bad boys”. I can’t tell you how many football games I’ve been to, when I’ve been a regular season ticket holder (12 years about) and barely had any men talk to me. But when some girl came in all flirty and dancing and in some cute little sport themed tight outfit, looking for attention by using her sexuality, a lot of men in the section seats around me where chatting her up and flirting with her. Some… Read more »
“Men talking about it as if it’s something women are doing *to* them.” OMG, I never really thought of that. The assumption that something is being done TO you. Disregard that, and you can look at things a little differently. But in the whole good v. bad guys debate, there is one dynamic that I think should be acknowledged. A lot of guys who aspire to be good have been raised on the idea that male sexuality is violent, disrespectful, akward, and annoying. We’re told of how it’s disrespectful to think a girl looks good, and to tell her she… Read more »
I think that is definitely an important discussion. I talked about the “what might be going on with women” part of that here https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/but-she-wants-it-gmp/
But I feel like the discussion about male sexuality as violent and shameful is one that men need to be having. I am extremely interested but I’m just not qualified to write about that part of the situation. I hope there are more articles that address that and what we can all to to change that.
With all due respect, Veronica, it is one that women must take part in as well. Now, I believe in women’s rights, but at the same time, within the “mainstream media” (ie: Hollywood) and politics, there have been elements among the female ranks that have touted the idea that men are disgusting and mean, with only thoughts of violence, spitting, and sex (and getting it at all costs). Of course, this isn’t helped by the male end of things touting the same message, and guys like me, guys who just want to find a woman who’ll make them happy and… Read more »
A lot of guys who aspire to be good have been raised on the idea that male sexuality is violent, disrespectful, akward, and annoying. We’re told of how it’s disrespectful to think a girl looks good, and to tell her she is good-looking. That wanting sex is already bordering perversion. Good point. And when you intersect that with the idea that men are allowed to be sexual beings while women are sexually repressed (some would even pull out the word privilege) I think we are left with a bit of a contradiction. Somehow males are free to be sexual but… Read more »
@ Webz
“A lot of guys who aspire to be good have been raised on the idea that male sexuality is violent, disrespectful, akward, and annoying. We’re told of how it’s disrespectful to think a girl looks good, and to tell her she is good-looking. That wanting sex is already bordering perversion.”
Good point. Now define good. Calm, peaceful, caring, sharing, may come to mind. Now define masculine. Fierce, dominant, strong, may come to mind. The definition of good seems far away from the definition of masculine. You can’t live a contradiction.
“And what that comes down to is women not being clear enough on this perspective. It’s like they lay out a framework of how they want to be treated, which excludes expressions of sexual desire, and so it actively filters out the men who respect them, and allows through only the men who disregard the boundaries she set forth. Then it would come as no surprise if these men disregard other boundaries as well.” So, you’re claiming mixed messages. I can dig that. You hear all the pro-woman propaganda which paints very broad strokes about respectful vs. disrespectful behavior, and… Read more »
I don’t know if you’re making sense, but I am relating to everything you’re saying. For some reason I have the results of the experiment with the superstitious pigeons in mind. I knew that sentence would whet your curiosity! Okay after all the experiments of reward and punishment involving all sorts of animals being given sugar pills or some similar reward for one sort of behaviour and electric shocks (I know, right; if you’re having a twinge of ethical disapproval there, I feel it too) as a form of punishment and how behaviour could be modelled; came a couple of… Read more »
I’m actually very familiar with the cruel-sounding learned helplessness experiment. I remember learning about it in Psych 105 in college and finding it a relevant example in other areas of my life, as I have been that dog who realized no matter what she did or where she stepped, pain was waiting, so best to just lie down and accept it. And you’re spot-on, “bleak” is the best way to describe that situation. Thank you for making that comparison, though, it does help me understand and feel a little more sympathetic to the men who have become so embittered by… Read more »
I don’t know what can be done about the wounded dog.
But I’ve learned that aging helps quite a bit, in that the drive or “urge” to interact with other people with the hope that someone some day will “get” you will diminish.
But here’s the issue. You talk about women “not being clear enough on this perspective. It’s like they lay out a framework of how they want to be treated, which excludes expressions of sexual desire, and so it actively filters out the men who respect them” SOME women are like that. Not all, and if that’s the only type of women you’re meeting then you’re picking the wrong type of women – as they’re clearly not right for you. It’s exactly like saying, ‘oh, all guys are into bitchy women.” No, the guys who are into that are the guys… Read more »