Veronica Grace believes that some compliments are not kind, even if the person seems to want them.
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We’ve been talking about looking at women respectfully around The Good Men Project. Our top post right now is about a dad who is thinking about how he will explain to his son that, “It is a woman’s responsibility to dress herself in the morning. It is your responsibility to look at her like a human being regardless of what she is wearing.” Then in a really great discussion today among a few of the writers, one man explained that he’s confused by what he is supposed to do when confronted with a woman who is dressed in beautiful or sexy attire. My understanding of what he said was that he feels like women work to get attention for being attractive—but he is not supposed to look too much or compliment them on that attractiveness. This is a man with a Ph.D. in psychology from one of those really impressive schools and decades of working with gender roles. If he’s confused, I’m betting almost everyone is.
I think the problem is that we confuse the system with the individual. We confuse the unhealthy wants with the healthy needs. Our culture teaches and enforces that a woman’s value is in her ability and willingness to be attractive. It’s so universal, that when you meet a little girl you compliment her on how pretty she is, or how cute her dress is. I caught myself doing this not long ago and I know better. It’s an easy default when you don’t know someone. It’s the easy opener, it seems nice and it doesn’t ask them to talk to you except to thank you as if you’ve just done something for them.
I want to challenge you to think of complimenting women you are not in a relationship with as you would think of force-feeding candy to a diabetic. Yes, they may want the candy badly sometimes, even if they know it’s making them sick. You are not being kind or noble to give it to them. I know it feels good, as if you’ve done something positive. You think “I made her day.” It’s comfortable to say something “nice” about something so shallow, so accepted. Most women will find cheap pleasure in the complement or pretend to. So either way you don’t have to be mindful of what you are saying, you can just roll out the ‘old compliment them on their looks’ thing and move on. If a woman has any reaction but gratitude you get to say she’s being a bitch and feel superior because you were only being “nice.”
The problem with that is, you are not being kind. Everyone has an innate need to be valued and so often women are told the only value they have a chance of achieving is with their ability to attract male attention. People need to feel seen. Women and girls are often trained to believe that the only way to be seen is to be attractive to the eye. Men, you can related to this, right? Men and boys are often told they only have value in how well they provide, in how invulnerable they are, in how successful they are.
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Some people are probably saying “But some women like it! Why shouldn’t I give it to them if it makes us both feel good?” If you only care for your own “good feeling” then I hope you’ll spend some time thinking about why you would feel good doing something even if it feeds into someone’s unhealthy attention-seeking.
Other people may say, “But it does make her feel good.” This is where the analogy to candy comes back. You can get pleasure from being complemented. You can get pleasure from eating candy. You can get pleasure from using hard-core drugs. Pleasure is not an indication of health.
For some women, compliments on her looks are like having a candy bar. Not good for her but not that harmful, if she’s not having too much. For some women compliments on her looks can be like a candy bar every day for a diabetic, slowly and maybe silently damaging and undermining their health. For some women, compliments on looks are like crack. They hold a serious high at first, but eventually they are brought down to doing anything to get the next compliment, the next bit of attention. They need them just to try to feel somewhere near OK for just a moment.
I look around at the women around me and I feel like the one in a war zone who managed to not get hit by anything too serious.
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Now I bet quite a few of you are going “WTF? Over dramatic much?!?” That’s OK with me because I’m not one of the women for whom compliments are an addiction or a disease. I got lucky, I was never abused as a child and I was always in the middle. I was never the pretty one, never told I was worthy because of how pretty I was. Nor was I ever the girl who was told she was ugly, sold the illusion that if she was pretty she would be worth something. I look around at the women around me and I feel like the one in a war zone who managed to not get hit by anything too serious. This isn’t personal to me, I get to be the reporter on the inside without being one of the badly wounded.
Since I’m not one of the badly wounded, I don’t have a personal story to share with you about seeking compliments while hating myself for doing so. But I sure see and hear enough of those stories. There are the stories from my girlfriends, most of whom have many times starved themselves in unhealthy ways, sacrificing their bodies in attempts to be attractive. There are the stories told by the bodies of the women I see around me who have taken their complement seeking to the extreme of plastic surgery. Sometimes to the extreme of living a life with not one part of them OK as it is. I see these women and they have covered themselves in makeup and fake tans, covered their smell with perfume, covered their eyes with contacts, covered their hair in dye and products, covered their body in things to change their very shape. Not one part of them is allowed to just be, not one part of them is OK as it is.
Do you want to play into that?
I am sure there are some of you who are saying “Well, if they say they like it, why should I believe you?” You are absolutely right. If you know someone well enough to have talked to them about this and they have said that they find compliments to their looks healthy or no big deal, respect that. But if you don’t know someone, I’m asking you to consider that even if they seem to be seeking attention and compliments, it may not be as simple as you think.
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I’m not sure how many of you know this, but there are women who dress attractively not to be noticed by men but to avoid being harassed. Women who do not conform to society’s idea of attractive are, in different ways and amounts, treated badly. Sometimes it’s just a matter of “more attractive/gender conforming = more privilege” but there are times when not being what society says women should be gets you abused or harassed. Sometimes it has to do with how much you weigh, sometimes it has to do with not wearing makeup or not shaving your legs, sometimes it’s the clothes you wear. On rare occasion not conforming to the expectation that you will do your best to be attractive puts women in danger of being assaulted.
Often it involves people telling you what you should be doing with your body. “Hey! Smile for me, it’ll make you beautiful!” or “Women should always wear jeans, they look sloppy in track pants” Sometimes it involves things like, “Let’s punch a fat person to see if they have feelings!” These are real examples BTW. If women don’t want that kind of attention they may not wear casual clothes to run to the store again, and the next man may say, “if she didn’t want attention why did she dress up to go to the store?” It’s a lose-lose situation for women.
It’s a lose-lose situation for men, too. Chances are that if you compliment a woman you don’t know on her looks you are very likely either irritating her or playing into dysfunctional dynamics she has going on. So what is the solution? How about if you just make it a point to never compliment a woman on her looks unless you know her well enough to know she is OK with it coming from you? You may even find that once you take that option off the table, you find much more interesting ways to engage a woman in discussion. If you have no interest in engaging her in discussion…don’t talk to her.
Once you take complements off the table, you may just find many more interesting ways to engage a woman in discussion.
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I know this is complicated, any time you have someone who seems to want something and then says they don’t it’s confusing. It’s often confusing for the women who are doing it too. But I don’t think they are alone. I think that some men have a similar issue. Only for men it is not wanting to be desired for money. They truly do not want to be wanted because they have money. Yet the car they drive, the clothes they wear and the things they do are often an advertisement for the fact that they have money (even when they don’t). Does that mean that it’s healthy or acceptable for women to be with them for their money? I don’t think so. I don’t buy “she was asking for it” and I don’t buy “he was asking for it” either. In any situation. We all have the responsibility for our own actions.
How you treat people is about who you are. It is NOT about who they are or what you think they want or deserve.
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I’m interested to know if you can think of other areas men do this? Leave a comment on something you do or that you’ve seen other men do that advertises themselves for something they do not want to be valued for. I’m looking forward to a thoughtful insightful discussion.
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Photo B Tal/Flickr
Wonder article.
I find myself sometimes dressing up for the fun of it. But also dressing down because i dont like to feel dependent on feeling “beautiful.” But when I say dressing down, I mean attractive enough to not get the negative comments. So I seems to try to walk a narrow line between attention-getting on either side.
To me Monica, Steve and Paul are making the most sense on this thread. I also think surely the being mindful bit is not to starve somebody of compliments in the areas they have got it into their head are important but make sure you also give compliments in the areas that they don’t realise are important. But if we’re worried that concentrating on physical attributes in compliments leads to anorexia or unhealthy dieting or cosmetic surgery or fear of aging, isn’t starving someone of compliments actually making it worse? That’s giving someone the message that they’re not doing enough,… Read more »
Hey, great article! I think there’s a lot of truth in what Holly Kearl says–she’s the author of the book “Stop Street Harassment”. Handing compliments to strangers can be an act of bullying, of asserting power over another person. It’s a man grabbing the right to make a comment about some intimate aspect of a woman’s behavior or appearance, and Elissa’s response seems very telling–“men tend to compliment my hair/eyes and smile while women tend to compliment me for stuff I purchased for wear”. Under some conditions it can be a pleasure to receive some praise, but Holly Kearl is… Read more »
“I look around at the women around me and I feel like the one in a war zone who managed to not get hit by anything too serious.”
This reminded me of a joke I heard many years ago. “They had a meeting for functional families and only two showed up. They were both in denial.” 😉
I think you may suffer from something most of us have, judgement of others. Im judging you think you have it all figured out because you didnt suffer like all the others.
Well, if I had said I hadn’t been badly wounded in any war…then you’d be right. We all have our wounds, this just happens to not be an area I sustained significant damage. I certainly make up for that in other areas. Maybe you can point out where I’ve judged someone? Or where I thought I had it all figured out. I can’t recall ever thinking I (or anyone) had it *all* figured out. It’s really interesting how people react to someone sharing their insights into things. I wonder if any sharing is seen as thinking you have it *all… Read more »
I really don’t like the premise of this article, especially as contrasted with the one that inspired it. Socially we tell women that they are responsible for men’s sex drive, and the previous article made a convincing case to men that they need to be responsible for themselves, which I applaud. To me, this article goes too far toward making men responsible for the self-esteem of women. Yes, many women fish for compliments and attention, but they do this because their self esteem is lacking. While it is tempting to believe that you can “build up” or “tear down” a… Read more »
“I reject the idea that it’s somehow the responsibility of men to figure out the confusing picture of a woman’s self esteem before speaking. What I believe we should expect is for them to view us as human beings, and to speak authentically from themselves.” When so many men are struggling with what authentic means to them, I believe they have a responsibility to THINK about what they are about to say. Think about how it reflects their own values, Think about how their words may negatively or positively affect another. Responsibility includes thinking and caring about your impact on… Read more »
Steve, you are correct that we do generally hav a responsibility to thinthow what we say and do has an impact on others. However, there is a balancing point between respect for other people and stifling your own self-expression. In my opinion the article goes too far toward stifling, and puts too much responsibility on men and too little on women. Let’s examine how the original article about “Seeing a Woman” talks about this respnsibility. “The other view will say women need to dress to protect men from themselves. You are better than [that.]” I completely agree. Women have been… Read more »
Well said. I like the balance in your view. Your last paragraph hit it on the head. I would add that those men should ignore those who “police”.
I would have to agree with Paul as well. It has become easier not to talk to people because a word might be said that offends.
So Paul and guys who have mentioned that we scrutinize things too much. I’m curious what you are getting out of reading things then. Maybe it’s just a very different view of things but I read things other people write in order to get more ideas, to analyze and scrutinize and hopefully come out with something new to think about. I’m not sure why you would read anything online otherwise.
So maybe you can tell me why you read things if not to think about them on a deeper level?
Hi Veronica, You might have misunderstood. Just speaking for myself, I’m not opposing reading, thinking, discussion, analyzing or evolving. I’m opposing the idea of men getting more wrapped up (confused) in what OTHERS expect of them than what they expect of themselves. Hence, the comment about the psychologist’s confusion. If he had established himself as a man of value and solid values in his own heart, he wouldn’t be so confused by women and how they act or dress. He simply relates to them as human beings according to his values. If he finds them attractive and wants to say… Read more »
Since you don’t know him, it’s interesting that you believe you know he isn’t a man of value and solid values in his own heart. I don’t know him past a few discussions and things he’s written but I don’t think this is really about him. It seems that some of the men who are commenting are using shaming to enforce that men shouldn’t care what others think, or maybe that men should know things and not ask, or maybe it’s something else that I haven’t thought of. But maybe you can tell me why caring how your actions affect… Read more »
I’ll try just to keep this short. (I see now I failed) And, yes, this is really off your general point regarding compliments about attractiveness which I generally agree with. Going back to the article: “My understanding of what he said was that he feels like women work to get attention for being attractive—but he is not supposed to look too much or compliment them on that attractiveness. He was confused about was he was “supposed” to do – not concerned about how his actions affected others. The implication in your article is that he is concerned about how to… Read more »
Veronica: So Paul and guys who have mentioned that we scrutinize things too much… — I certainly didn’t say that, nor do I believe that. I’m playing along here on GMP precisely because I enjoy the process of scrutinizing alone, and together. I just happen to believe that the result of your particular scrutiny on this issue is a model that would be a net negative in the difficult and transitional time that we are going through regarding gender as a species. — Veronica: So maybe you can tell me why you read things if not to think about them… Read more »
I will begin with an apology. I reread your response and you did not speak of over analyzing and over scrutinizing. It was several men who said they agreed with you that said those things. It was that attitude(which I see now you were not putting forward) that I wondered how it could co-exist with deeper thinking about a subject. Of course you have to be mindful of what sources you choose to think more deeply on and everyone can choose that my writing is not a source they wish to think deeper about or a source they feel brings… Read more »
Thanks for the response. It is precisely because I am mindful that I reject your fundamental “diabetes/candy” premise about women. As for the suffering of confused men, I feel it deeply as a man who isn’t confused, but sees the confusion all around – in men and women both. The confusion is a natural result of the fact that we are in a time when the old is being destroyed, and the new is being born. People aren’t happy with the old maps and models, and new ones have yet to emerge. It is precisely for that reason that I… Read more »
I’m with Paul. The over-scrutinizing of everyday life has reached the angels on the head of a pin stage.
Sorry, but I refuse to buy into the disease model of women (diabetes/candy) – or men for that matter. If some guy’s got an awesome bike (or car) and I’m walking by it, or getting a ride in/on it, I’m not going to worry about whether he owns it to compensate for some psychic deficit. “Nice wheels”, “awesome chopper”, “rad paint job” – totally OK, and not at all the same of me wanting him to be my sugar daddy. And it’s the same deal for woman, really. I’m just not playing any of these disease games when it comes… Read more »
Paul, I had the same reaction to psychologist and his confusion. Over-thinking and intellectualizing this stuff can rip a guys self-confidence out. She’s beautiful. She looks sexy. She’s smart. She’s hanging her cleavage right in front of your nose. Dude. She’s just a person. Just a woman with as much insecurity and baggage as anyone else. If guys only knew how her day would change with one confident, honest, compliment like, “gorgeous dress. good color for you….did you finish those reports we were talking about?” The missing link is feeling enough value in OURSELVES to deliver that compliment without blinking.… Read more »
“Gorgeous dress. good color for you….did you finish those reports we were talking about?”
So is this scenario taking place in an office or at a fashion show? Why mention her dress at all? Why don’t you form the thought, “gorgeous dress. good color for her.” and leave it at that? There’s really no need to tell her, is there?
My example was in an office. I mention it because I wanted to and it was absolutely true for me. I don’t leave it at that because it is not MY value to NOT keep thoughts like that to myself. My intentions are pure and I only wish to acknowledge that I appreciate what I see. Need? No. Want? Yes. My want is to be exactly who I am without apology. With the huge majority of men and women I meet, there is a genuine need for kind, considerate, loving acknowledge, appreciation, and approval. If they don’t like my words… Read more »
This article articulated so many things we as women feel, Thanks, I enjoyed reading it so much!
Sometimes you build a kid up and sometimes you knock a kid down. It’s all about achieving a balanced perspective. In the dojang what Sa Bam Nim wanted us to work on was our taekwondo skills. There were times he would let us free style, but you had to respect the art and tradition. There is a difference between being confident and being cocky. If you got too cocky, you’d find yourself sparring Sa Bam Nim and that wouldn’t end well for you. Even when we want to push “good” traits, we run the risk that people could either become… Read more »
Thanks, Veronica. I think your point is a good one and a good reminder to us that we have the power to build others up and give them a reputation to live up to. Do we want them to feel appreciated for their looks or their character? Even with women you know (your wife or GF), constantly complimenting appearance can feel irritating and childish. Your motives are justifiably in question. Instead of, “Babe, your ass looks great in those jeans” (sometimes appropriate), better to give her a heartfelt, “It’s just not fair to the world that a rockin’ mom and… Read more »
I may be totally wrong here, but this comment seems to dive straight into the narrative that woman are valued for how they look, while men are valued for what they achieve.
Which I thought was precisely what this article, together with a host of other at GMP, was arguing against>/i>.
Hi FK,
Not sure what you mean. Can you explain?
I was trying to explain the value in pointing out character and achievement instead of focusing on looks.
Thanks.
Hi, I could have sworn I posted this yesterday. Either I’m getting senile, or it got stuck somewhere… Anyway, sorry for that. Here goes: I was trying to explain the value in pointing out character and achievement instead of focusing on looks. That was precisely my point. The article tells us not to enhance the (poisonous) view in society that women are not valued as persons, but mostly, if not only, for their looks But the flip side of this is that men are not valued as persons either, but mostly/only for what they can achieve and contribute to their… Read more »
Who has the time or where with all to wrap themselves in this web of confusion?!Because of this confusion,I say don’t do it.Besides,telling a woman she is beautiful,gives her false props and disempowers men.Men are taught that the physically attractive woman is a better catch and it is implied that her beauty is a sign of her goodness and purity.This was clearly the case as I watched the Disney Classic Cinderella just yesterday.Her step sisters were all unattractive physically AND in personality.This was no accident and can be seen everywhere in culture.Ugly people are bad and goodlooking people are good.As… Read more »
That is a really excellent point that I wish I had included. Society does equate attractive with good and that encourages people to value looking attractive. Sometimes even when the attention makes them uncomfortable.
I don’t think any group can take the lead on this. I think we all need to work on it from wherever we are and individuals need to work on it from the inside.
Veronica Disney offers usa perfect example of why I say that women need to take the lead in unraveling thie mess.On the one hand,Disney,at the behest of feminism, has been in in the forefront of the major reformation of the image of women and girls as helpless,but still beautiful,independent beings who don’t require a hero to save them.While simultaeously they continue to make profits showing Snow White and Cinderella.They offer no explanation nor do they attempt to reconcile this glaring contradiction,they just profit from it.This is a microcosm of how women behave,sending mixed messages about their needs while taking no… Read more »
I know what you mean about even young girls being concerned about their looks. My sister brought my 4 year old niece for an eye examination. After the examination, my niece wanted to know the findings so she asked the doctor, “So are my eyes pretty?” On compliments, I think an assumption being made is that we are only talking about conventionally attractive women. I remember seeing a 30 something year old woman who is extremely short, extremely overweight, and not conventionally attractive was working at a counter. A 50 something year old man had walked up to the counter,… Read more »
It’s starting earlier and earlier and it’s happening to boys too. I see kindergarten boys with hair gel. That’s an interesting point. I had not considered that some people might assume that only conventionally attractive women were getting compliments or being affected by them in a negative way. But it makes sense, people have really odd ideas about “regular” or “fat” or supposedly “unattractive” women and thinking that they get no attention or compliments. I don’t know where this comes from. The # of compliments and possible the tone and type may be different but it’s still a problem. It’s… Read more »
@ Veronica Grace “That’s an interesting point. I had not considered that some people might assume that only conventionally attractive women were getting compliments or being affected by them in a negative way.” The thing is I don’t think the lady at the counter was affected in a negative way. I think it was a compliment she needed to hear. I think she needed to know that she could be desirable. When I was younger and working out, I used to get street harassed by women (not to the same degree or frequency as women do). It didn’t really bother… Read more »
I guess we just disagree(o:
I think the focus on being attractive is harmful to everyone. I don’t think that a compliment to someone who seems like they would get less is less harmful.
Thanks Veronica, very interesting article. I think you are spot on regarding women being harrassed for not conforming to the expectation that we will try our hardest to be “attractive”, and I love the line of thinking “If you have no interest in engaging her in discussion…don’t talk to her.” I wonder though, if it’s a matter of the nature of the compliment, more than the over-arching idea that compliments related to looks are negatively re-enforcing. I often compliment men and women not on what they look like, but HOW they are wearing something, or pulling off a unique style.… Read more »
That’s a good question to think about. I tend toward wondering if the reason someone put that much effort into looking a certain way is because it’s an issue for them. But I can see complimenting someone on something they are wearing that relates to who they are. For instance when I wear my Sesame Street “I was raised on the street” t-shirt and someone says “Sesame Street!” that doesn’t relate to how I look, it is an acknowledgment that we like the same thing or often in the case of that shirt that we have a shared experience of… Read more »
Overall, great common sense approach – Personally, and speaking of those that I don’t know well, or well enough to fall into consideration for this article – I find that men tend to compliment my hair/eyes and smile while women tend to compliment me for stuff I purchased for wear. The flip side of this article and staying with the diabetic analogy – is it your position that we should also be advising the diabetic to be mindful of their disease, and address it on their own as well? The common meme that we’ve seen on articles such as these… Read more »
Absolutely! This article is aimed at addressing what I was hearing from men about this. But we all have to work to be healthy inside. I was thinking about writing about mirror fasts for instance.
Hi Veronica
Brilliant article 🙂
Thank you (o: