This comment by Michael Rowe was in reply to Tom Matlack’s post “Being a Dude is a Good Thing.”
Oh, thank God. For a moment there, I was afraid no one was going to try to shame and trivialize Mr. Matlack’s exploration of a topic that clearly resonates with many, many evolved, liberal, pro-feminist, pro-LGBT men with shrill, trite, shopworn clichés like “angry White [sp] male of privilege” (itself surely a prime example of a “sweeping and flawed generalization.”) Well said, Andy,
Now that Andrew has correctly identified Tom Matlack and The Good Men’s Project as the vile engine of sexist oppression that it is, there’s still time to put on our Indigo Girls CD and rustle up a delicious organic mung bean noodle casserole in time for the collective’s pot-luck supper and film night.
And yes, for the record, I too am glad that “my male friends and family do not espouse the same values” Mr. Matlack does. Can you imagine how degraded the culture would be if it were populated by men who founded men’s websites dedicated to men asking themselves how to be better men–getting men to actually question their own place in the world, and what they owe to women, other men, their families, their friends, and society as a whole–men’s websites that provided a forum for both male and female writers, welcoming the latter even when the writing is critical and occasionally very harsh towards men in a way that no women’s website ever would if it were a man writing about women? Or who travels across the country, from prisons to schools and everywhere in between, asking men to take a long hard look at their lives, where they’ve come from, where they’re going, and what they owe?
And what could such a man ever know about gender, let alone the relations between men and women, or straight men and gay men, or straight men and lesbians, or, or, or…?
About the Editors
I do love it that so many are making comment!
It’s so interesting to read!
I love clear thinkers and great minds!
A person who never made a mistake never tried anything new.
Albert Einstein
Discussion and Dialogue are regarded as arts – some are good at it and others just preach!
So if men owe something to women, then women must owe something to men. What would that be? And the answer must be gender based, since anything else would just mean that humans owe humans.
Got to pull you up on your clothes Evolved Emperor Sir.
There was always a good man project, it used be called the real man project, before that it was called the gentleman project. They all have this in common – only men are accountable, and so they erase female agency. You are not as enlightened or progressive as you believe yourself to be (although a seductive proposition no doubt), you are perpetuating an age old system known as patriarchy, progressive male feminists are the new chivalrous white knights defending the ladies honor and upholding the code, and feminists are new ladies and damsels in distress.
The more evolved side of the gender debate recognizes this.
Stop treating women like children gentle/real/good men, stop being so macho, make them accountable adults too.
Isn’t the GMP about multiple definitions of masculinity?
Peter
I think that TGMP is about multiple definitions of masculinity within the old male gender box,
it seems to be about holding masculinity accountable, masculinity has always been constructed as the accountable gender, if there is only one gender that’s accountable, there has to be one that isn’t.
So this is the old men have agency and act / women are passive no actors without agency system replicating itself and mainly under the influence of feminism.
Women _should_ be held accountable for their words and actions, of course. But feminism has taught them to reject any such messages coming from men; they’ll have to learn this lesson themselves, from within. They’ll have to grow up and choose to ACCEPT responsibillity for themselves.
And until they do, we’ll withhold our respect for them.
We owe it to women to not allow them to be treated or treat them like they are vulnerable, to assume they are so weak they cannot ever abuse someone or ever be in the wrong, or have physical strength. Women are not children, women are every bit as capable as a man of inflicting serious damage and abuse. Too often I see people attempt to treat women as if they have a child’s strength and thus cannot hurt anyone but it’s time for that to change, no longer should it be an excuse to ignore abuse nor deny them responsibility in the workplace (women can lift boxes too SHOCK HORROR).
Growing up knowing strong women helped to change my perception of them, knowing women who can knock out men, lift heavy objects and aren’t fragile princesses. But I also noticed many women would give up before attempting to do any strength-related task, fearing they are too weak? Strength is gained by training, men train for it but women generally don’t, they’re often under the perception they will get so big n muscly like men (you can’t without hormone injections due to testosterone differences) so they fear their femininity will be in question. You can be both strong and feminine, even most men don’t get huge muscles because huge muscles require a hell of a lot of training, diet, sometimes even steroids.
So guys and girls, please encourage the girls to using their strength just as they encourage us to use our emotional strength, you will be surprised how strong many are. This isn’t the fault of men, it’s society itself.
Men are oblivious to the amount of “literature” and resources out there that have been available for ages to help women be better wives, girlfriends, daughters, neighbours, employees…yada yada. I think men have their noses in Maxim, or sports/business/finance sections of their newspaper too much of the time, to realize what women have been up to. It’s rather annoying to hear some men whine, “why isn’t there a ‘good women project’?”
Here is a short list of “good women projects”:
Good Housekeeping:
This magazine has been around since 1885! And what an outdated magazine title – good to know where women belong and what we should be doing! “Good Housekeeping is the most trusted online source for advice about food, diet, beauty, health, family and home, plus exclusive product reviews from the Good Housekeeping Research Institute.”
Today’s Parents:
“Get information on your pregnancy, baby, breastfeeding, baby food, newborn baby sleep, health, and the stages of growth and development.”
Other parent magazines: Parents, Attitude, parenting, FitPregnancy, Parent&child, Working Mother, cookie
Oprah Winfrey show, OWN network, “O” magazine:
“O, The Oprah Magazine is the resource that confident, smart women need to explore their potential and realize their dreams. O, The Oprah Magazine helps women embrace their individual style and make choices that lead to a richer, more fulfilling life. Oprah Winfrey, one of the most trusted women in America, is the inspirational force behind O Magazine, which has captured the imagination of women everywhere with its empowering and transforming message.”
Other “homemaking” magazines: Family Circle, First, Good Housekeeping, Ladies Home Journal, Hallmark, Farm & Ranch Living, Chatelaine, Best of True Confessions, Woman’s Day, True Story, Rosie, Redbook, Country Woman
Everyday with Rachel Ray:
“EveryDay with Rachael Ray is a magazine for smart entertaining, delicious food and spur of the moment travel. Each issue of Every Day magazine includes amusing articles and exciting columns, such as 30-Minute Meals, featuring 10 new recipes of the season; Rachael’s Diary, featuring snapshots, snippets, lively insight and inspiration; Big Bashes, Small Get Togethers, geared to small party gatherings; Stolen Weekends, including last-minute, fun-filled food get-aways; and Every Day Menu Planner, a 7-day, tear out shopping and cooking guide.”
Other food magazines include: Chatelaine, Taste of Home, Heart Healthy Living, Eating Well, Healthy Cooking, Food Network, Simple & Delicious, Cookbook Digest, Cooking Smart, Cooks Illustrated, Diabetic Cooking, Cooking for 2, Home Cooking, LowCarb, Fine Cooking, Easy Home Cooking, Taste of Home Holiday, Diet & Nutrition, Vegetarian, Veggie Life
Cosmopolitan:
“Cosmo has been helping women all over the world unlock the secrets to better sex, better abs and the enigmatic male psyche for four decades…”
“Cosmopolitan is the lifestylist for millions of fun fearless females who want to be the best they can in every area of their lives, with information on relationships and romance, the best in fashion and beauty, as well as what’s happening in pop culture and entertainment.”
They are run by women for women, about things that many women chose to be interested in.
Its not the same thing as here, which is a social eugenics project where women, who have no experience of being men, as allowed to describe and define men’s reality for them, and dictate to them how they should be or not be.
Aisle Alter Hymn on a mass scale. It actually in a way promotes a negative female stereotype – the controlling shrew that sees men as a project for her.
Hey there, controlling shrew here, here to say “hello”. If you think that men should be writing about their experiences, please write about your experience. You can submit here: http://goodmenproject.submishmash.com/submit
Otherwise — just attacking Good Men Project — what it stands for and what its intentions are — will get you banned by one of our many community moderators.
Hi Lisa
I’m sorry I didn’t mean to insult you, I was talking more of the political movement that you chose to align with.
It’s difficult for me to come here, and to see feminists preaching at men, and men objecting and refuting their misinformation, bogus stats. and abuse denial for a year now, and to see little to no change, even though the men that are objecting men are the consumers and target market here.
Were some male run Islamic or christian group to entrench itself in Jezebele and start defining women, preaching original sin, how women are accountable for all evil and denying their rapes and abuse, while the readers object, only to be ignored … well it just wouldn’t happen to women here in the west, why is this happening to men here?
An apt question was asked on another gender site recently.
“Men are the only group of people whose opinion on themselves is considered less authoritative then anyone else’s opinion of them. Isn’t that weird? Or what?”
You pay people, that cover up abuse and push extremist feminist ideologies on us, no matter what we have to say about it. Are we that impotent and unimportant as a consumer group, are we so worthless that its ok for your staff to cover up and minimize our rapes? No consumer group of women would ever be treated like that.
Absolutely no offense taken Alan — thanks for re-engaging thoughtfully.
First of all — we are a community-run site. People who write for us do so because they write for us. I am going to say to you what I say to everyone else — if you want to be a part of the change — step up and help create that change. “Be the change that you want to see in the world” — that’s what that means. Write an article for us, from your experience, and you can have an upfront position on any topics related to manhood, masculinity, abuse — anything you want.
If you want an opinion on men that is different than that which is offered here — give us your opinion.
Email me at lisa at goodmenproject dot com if that is of interest.
Well Lisa, I don’t think that its truly community based, the publications editorial policies and choice of regulars on the roster are clear and overt, and it was made very clear last March how its to be, who is welcome and who is not, the feminist movement is in a privileged position here. Non feminist male and men’s movement voices are second fiddle to feminist voices. Even if I could write I’d be sure that the deck was stacked against me.
“They are run by women for women, about things that many women chose to be interested in.”
Regardless of who they’re run by, do you hear women or men for that matter, whining how these lifestyle resources to improve women’s lives, relationships, families, communities – have DEGRADED our culture?
As a subscriber to some of these magazines, I can tell you there are monthly articles and real-life stories slotted into these magazine pages which tackle and address social problems in our country and abroad – typically gender-based crimes and poverty. Beauty and fashion magazines often contain these thought provoking stories – bringing to light issues that stem from patriarchy.
Why aren’t most men interested in or demanding more “literature” and resources to be better men when it comes to fatherhood, relationships, families, and communities which women have been embracing for eons???
Remember that for over two decades, The Oprah Winfrey Show captured a loyal following, watched by mostly women in the millions around the globe. In the 1990s, “Oprah began to emphasize spiritual values, healthy living and self-help, and her program became more popular than ever.” Oprah Winfrey proclaimed that ‘I always wanted to be a teacher and I ended up in the world’s biggest classroom. The GMP could be that classroom for men
Taylor
“The GMP could be that classroom for men”
Yes I know that’s how some view it, a place for a gynocentric political movement to scold men, and tell them that they have the modern version of original sin and define and redfine them redefine Its very degrading.
That’s the crux, isn’t it? The notion that the direction of the content—the tone, the questions asked, the forum for men to answer honestly–is not up to either the editors or the readers. Never mind that the magazine was conceived as a forum for men to share and discover their own stories.No, men should welcome an online magazine called “The Good Men Project” being turned into a “classroom for me” so that those who know exactly how men should think, speak, and self-visualize can explain them to themselves, most especially what’s wrong with them.
again, a great post
Because men for eons were taught to be providers, and thus they were raised and trained to be good income earners, defend their family, die for their country, etc.
I responded to this comment in its original form on Tom’s page. I have pasted that response below:
Michael,
You self-diminish the value of your reply by packaging it in patronizing sarcasm. It didn’t escape my notice that you then attempted to diminish my value by truncating my name to it’s shortened form. That’s a particularly savvy move on the “I have nothing to offer but vitriol” debate circuit. I suppose I could unpack what you’ve written by saying that, yes, The GMP offers a forum for discussion re: many issues. The point of the matter *here* is that Tom’s piece (and subsequent Twitter activity) is particularly troubling and offensive. His piece attempts to speak for all males and understand all women. This is classic White male privilege behavior. To mollify Tom’s writing by contextualizing it as part of the great work that The GMP does on the whole is a nonstarter. I cannot overlook the offensiveness of this piece just because other works have value.
You make a valid point that Women are given a place to write critical pieces on TGMP. This is essential and appreciated. You point out that Men are not given an equal opportunity for this on Feminist blogs. What your example doesn’t account for is the difference in power that our society has ascribed to Men and Women. Women have license to write critically of this structure because it exits. Men, on the other hand, are privileged and face nothing resembling the systemic pressures and oppressiveness that Women face.
Tom’s writing clearly demonstrates his disappointingly narrow views on how Men and Women relate, true masculinity, and what we must do as Men to move forward. Given these limitations I would very much appreciate it if he didn’t attempt to speak for me as a Male. I am on a different path. I would also appreciate it if he didn’t include any of the Women in my life in his generalized comments re: all Women. I do not know any of the Women he refers to.
Andrew: “Men, on the other hand, are privileged and face nothing resembling the systemic pressures and oppressiveness that Women face.”
As someone, who wrote in” Bullied By Girls And Women: One Man’s Account”, whom has been dealt serious trauma not just by boys and men but by girls and women. One who also has found NO ARTICLES on girls bullying boys, finds it hard to get support for it, and faces a culture whom would rather NOT deal with it, pressure to keep the pain hidden, I would just like to say:
You are disgusting!
I feel like you should reflect on what systemic oppression refers to. You have personally had trauma inflicted on your by girls and Women. For this I am terribly sorry. Abuse is awful and you have my full sympathy. I stand by my point that Men are privileged and that Women are not. Your abuse was a series of isolated incidents, local to you. The oppression that Women face, and have faced, has been brought about by our government, federal and local agencies, churches, etc etc etc …
I understand your anger but I think it’s misdirected. Women didn’t abuse you. A few Women/girls abused you. There is a terrific difference in that idea.
how long have you been a feminist?
3 years 4 months 14 days 6 hours and 12 minutes?
lol, it was a genuine question. the glow of your zeal and your innerpeace reminded me of the zeal and innerpeace ive seen in new converts to other ideologies/religions. i couldnt contain my curiousity
lol .. Ok, I wasn’t sure : ) I’ve submitted a piece that will speak more to my involvement with Feminism or, at least, the genesis of my opinions. Thanks for bringing a bit of much needed levity to this!
ok cool, i look forward reading your article
Andrew, I’m not going to continue with this debate any longer.
I was Disbelived, Invalidated by soceity. I had to practically make an article on the subject of what happened because, aside from one old article online, there’s NOTHING available for men like me.
Yet you continue to lump me with those who do have power.
Forget it. You don’t get it.
You stick with your world of “Male Priveledge” and “Power Over Women”, I’ll stick with mine. Thank you.
Eagle, I believe your anger and frustration. I wish there was a way to adequately discuss systems without circling back to individuals. Maybe right now there isn’t. That you had courage and fortitude to create those articles and systems, is a good thing. I think Andrew is also trying to make positive things happen and right now maybe there isn’t any way to find a common ground or connection. But I do want to just stay that it’s clear that your frustration is there and I see it.
Eagle,
I think Julie has perfectly described our two interactions. I’m sorry it feels like we’re battling each other. Believe me, that is not my intention. Thank you Julie.
That’s because “systems” are made up of individuals. I mean, how many guys like Eagle do there have to be before it’s considered systemic? What does “systemic” even mean?
It’s a buzzword and a silencing tactic. it’s a way of minimizing people like Eagle, of making them into an anomaly and therefore invisible. It says to guys like Eagle “Well, we’re sorry for what ahppened to you, but you’re the only one it’s happened to, so you don’t really matter.”
But thing is? He’s not the only one to whom things like this have happened. So I ask again, how many will there have to be before things like this are considered “systemic” enough for people to give a damn? And I mean actually give a damn not mout some platitude that let’s them handwave the problem into existence?
…Or would that be whining? I hear men aren’t supposed to do that. Or at least, not “real men”
Julie
Let me ask you:
What’s so positive about erasing people like me?
Where is the progress in invalidating my experiences?
Remember when I said in my Bullied By Girls And Women article to not paint over me so I fade into the background where no one can see me?
Guess what happened.
Anyway, I’m done.
Eagle, I have not silenced you. I don’t have that ability to silence you. I don’t want to silence you. I see you. I have not erased you. I want to be able to talk about individuals and about systems. Both. Not one or the other. If you can’t see that in my writings and my pieces and in my responses to you, that’s your issue not mine.
FYI? Me getting bullied by African American women all through grade school does not mean that all African American women are systemically oppressing me. And no before you respond I am NOT comparing my life to yours.
There is a huge difference between how systemic issues work and how individual interact. Systems are made up of individuals yes they are, just as organs are made of cells. At some point the cells create a structure bigger than themselves which can influence the life of the cells and sometimes, the individuals can affect the larger whole.. Even as I write this I know it won’t make a goddamn bit of difference because you’ll just decide somehow that my responding to you (which means I’m seeing you, experiencing you and hearing you) is silencing. If I was going to silence, I wouldn’t respond at all. Do you see that?
You are very very visible here Eagle. Your words are published and your comments are read and responded to. Were you to be erased your piece wouldn’t have been published! It’s here on the site visible to millions!
Disagreeing (which I actually haven’t done) with you isn’t silencing. If I said, “Hey I don’t believe you F&ck off.” That would be getting towards silencing. If people banned you (which they have not and I suspect will not and shouldn’t), or not published your piece, or taken it down that would be silencing.
Me offering a compassionate response to you where I share my own frustrations about how the dialogue is going here is NOT silencing.
In NO way have I said, “Oh too bad for you whatever.” I hate HATE that people are abused. That children are treated this way. I don’t give a good goddamn if the kids are male, female whatever. No one should be so cruel.
Of all the posts I’ve been seen over the past few weeks, this one is probably the only one that has actually upset me. Congratulations.
Actually Julie, my comment was more directed at what Andrew did, not you.
Sorry, I should’ve specificed more when I said “Guess what happened.” I should’ve said “Guess what andrew did” to grant specificity.
I see I’ve really upset you and in no way was that the intention at all.
Say, you were teased by other women too? You should’ve offered that story there in the comments of Bullied By Girls And Women. I would’ve loved to hear it as I did other women who were bullied by girls as well whom commented.
Anyway, please respond soon. Let me know if you’re okay.
Great, now I feel bad. Really bad.
Eagle, thanks for responding and no need to feel bad. I also apologize for not asking first if you were referring to me.
Not always the best thing.
I assumed
I have been very frustrated with the threads in general the past few days. There is so much pain and so little listening. And I really want people to own when they are actually “seen.” Not just you, but I see a lot of people on both sides saying the same thing, the same way, with the same result. It’s quite troubling.
Human beings can be brilliant and beautiful on an individual level and those individuals can create beautiful fair systems. And humans can be horrible and cruel on an individual level. And they can build horrible systems.
What’s the tricky thing? Is that the beautiful kind brilliant people can take part in terrible systems. And the horrible cruel people could actual build lovely fair systems.
It’s a giant three/four dimensional puzzle and all we have here right now is a website and comment threads and I don’t see any real solving of the problem. Maybe each little moment of reaching out, peace making, arguing fairly and kindly, apologizing and listening and accepting are all moves on that puzzle board.
I don’t know.
I do know that I dealt with horrible people. Not often, not every day. Many people do I guess. I’m sorry you suffered so much, I truly am and I truly don’t want anyone to suffer. I do see you Eagle, FWIW.
Thanks Julie.
You keep up the good work here. And have faith.
As will I.
“His piece attempts to speak for all males and understand all women. ”
“Men, on the other hand, are privileged and face nothing resembling the systemic pressures and oppressiveness that Women face.”
So Tom is bad because he generalizes and then you go ahead and in the same comment generalize about all women and all men. Way to go. So Tom is supposed to observe rules of discussion that you yourself refuse to observe.
“What your example doesn’t account for is the difference in power that our society has ascribed to Men and Women. Women have license to write critically of this structure because it exits. Men, on the other hand, are privileged and face nothing resembling the systemic pressures and oppressiveness that Women face.”
This fails to explain why men cannot write critically about women on feminist blogs. Your logic is poor.
Which circles right back around, inevitably, to the standard radfem conclusion: “Men should just shut up already.”
Too bad that this is the wrong site to be pushing that message.
“in a way that no women’s website ever would if it were a man writing about women”
This is not actually true. I recommend you check out ifeminists.com for ample evidence to the contrary.
Kirsten, thank you, I’ll do that. I’ve never found a women’s site that welcomed and published a steady stream of sharply-worded, occasionally-scathing critiques by men’s rights activists (MRA) aimed at women, instructing them how to be “good women,” and explaining the women to themselves from a male perspective. On your advice, I’ll check out those sites.
Indeed Micheal, and great Original post too
I do like that the worst female and male scolds don’t come here as often now, or maybe I’m misperceiving this.
Dude. Your feelings of marginalization are not the fault of feminists. We’re against that crap. That’s the fault OF the dominant patriarchal system.
Put the blame where it belongs.
Cara,
I don’t think the response was directed at feminists, but rather at the assumption that white men are just the “privileged class.” Privilege comes with consequence and Eagle’s comment very clearly demonstrates that. As a white male am I privileged? Very much so, and it would be mistaken to think that a white male does not also experience social pressures that threaten to invalidate him just as they would a woman. Along with women’s consequences and troubles there are also many privileges to being a woman. Before anyone jumps on me by saying one’s groups invalidation is greater than another, I think this misses the point, and in particular is the point that Andrew is missing; we should focus on making sure that no group of people is ever invalidated.
Now each group can only focus on so many things at once, so Andrew, champion the rights of women and Eagle, champion the rights of women. Let’s agree that we are all people and never seek to invalidate another’s thoughts or feelings again. Isn’t that what the Good Men Project is really about? Creating a forum for the male half of our species how to redefine their perception of what it means to be “a man” and allow everyone the right to grow and develop their own thoughts and opinions and to help women understand how a male that thinks like a man looks at the world?
I’ll champion the rights of women, but at the expense of men like me thank you
Edit: I mean “NOT” at the expense of men. Thank you.
The very notion that it would necessarily be at men’s “expense” indicates that the problem is in your thinking, not in feminist ideas.
No that means he’s had the misfortune of dealing with bad feminists. But of course you’ve already decided that no feminist anywhere has any negativity about them so when people like Eagle come along is MUST be because they are running on prejudices about femnists rather than actual experience.
I would be nice if feminism was the perfect system of equality for all that you (and whole lot of misguided souls) seem to be believe but its not. And a lot of us have the scars to prove it.
But if it makes you feel better to just sit back and declare that feminists have 0 responsibility for any of the negativity that comes at them….