Ethical Pickup Artistry

Where can men find non-misogynist advice for hitting on women?

As some of my readers know, I’m fascinated by the pickup artist subculture (a community devoted to advising men on how to seduce women). It’s a very mixed bag. There’s good advice in the community for genuinely kind, shy guys. But it can be so charged with misogyny and cold-heartedness that wading through it feels like panning for gold in a sewer.

There are small communities of pickup artists all over the world, and there are message boards all over the Internet, and expensive pickup coaches are always popping up. Some of these folks are not so bad; some of them are awful. Many are frighteningly cynical; many traffic in particularly dangerous stereotypes about women. And most care a lot more about what works (i.e., how to get their penis in someone) than about what’s ethical or how to treat their targets like human beings.

“When I first found the community I was horrified by how sleazy and gross it is, but I had never had a girlfriend, and I told myself, ‘Dude, if you don’t learn this stuff you’re gonna die alone.’”

A good friend of mine recently told me that he’s been reading the blog of a misogynist pickup artist who I absolutely loathe. I was appalled. I provided a detailed feminist critique of this guy’s blog. My friend listened and understood, but in the end he said, “I hear what you’re saying, and I agree with you. The guy is an asshole and his advice is permeated with terrible opinions of women. But a lot of it is really good advice, and I don’t know where else I can find such good advice about women.”

Here’s the thing: the current pickup artist subculture has a monopoly on effective advice for how to break down social interactions and talk to women. Not all of it works, but enough of it works that it draws guys in. As a pickup artist instructor once told me, “When I first found the community I was horrified by how sleazy and gross it is, but I had never had a girlfriend, and I told myself, ‘Dude, if you don’t learn this stuff you’re gonna die alone.’”

I’ve theorized that maybe feminists should provide good pickup advice, in an attempt to counterbalance some of the awfulness of the existing community. In the meantime, however, I figure the next best thing to do is to provide a list of less misogynistic pickup artist instructors and sites, and a few very basic critiques.

First, the basic critiques. These are very, very basic; if you get me started, I’ll provide 10,000 more. But please, if you are going to investigate pickup artistry, at least keep these things in mind.

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1) People are different. Pickup artists often say “women are all X,” “women love X,” “women all respond to X,” etc. Sometimes they are correct for the majority of women; sometimes they are correct for a minority of women; sometimes they’re wrong.

The bottom line is this: Anything pickup artists say about women is not true for all women. Period.

(Corollary: pickup artists are sometimes wrong about men, too.)

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2) Even pickup advice that works does not always work for the reasons pickup artists commonly claim it does. Here’s a nerdy scientific analogy:

If you put a large container (like a tall drinking glass) over a burning candle and trap the flame inside without fresh air, it will eventually flicker out.

In medieval times, scholars believed in the existence of a substance called phlogiston. Supposedly, phlogiston was an invisible substance produced by fire; too much phlogiston would suffocate fire. Medieval scholars believed that flames without fresh air died because they eventually produced enough phlogiston that it filled up the available space, thereby suffocating the flame.

Today, we know that this is incorrect. Flames require oxygen, and if they are trapped without fresh air, flames go out because they use up the available oxygen.

A fair number, though not all, of pickup tactics work, but they work because women are likely to feel pressured, or guilty, or anxious. Not because women are likely to feel attracted.

So, the phlogiston theory is wrong. But at the time, it fit reality better than previous theories about fire. It explained why fire wouldn’t burn without fresh air, for example; previous theories failed to explain that. People had observable reasons for believing in the existence of phlogiston. Nevertheless, phlogiston still did not exist.

In the same way, pickup theory makes a lot of assumptions, especially stereotypes about women. Pickup artists may have some good ideas about how to flirt, but many of them will try to convince you that those tactics work because women are dumb, childish, weak-willed, gold-diggers, inherently submissive, considerably more irrational than men, or whatever other gross stereotype you care to choose. Just because a pickup artist can show you how to flirt, that doesn’t mean the assumptions behind the advice are reasonable.

In short, don’t fall for the phlogiston trap.

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3) Some pickup advice only works because it capitalizes on the insecurities of women who have low self-esteem, and can manipulate those women—not because those women actually want to have sex.

For example: some pickup artists describe using “freeze-outs” on women who say they don’t want to have sex. Here’s what the freeze-out looks like: the woman says no, the pickup artist says “OK”—and then he turns away from her and starts checking his email or doing something else very boring that does not include her. If candles are lit, he blows out the candles. If they’re playing a card game, he packs up the cards. Basically, he goes cold and ignores her until she agrees to have sex with him.

Here’s why this is fucked up: because women are inundated with messages that men won’t like us unless we have sex with them. If a guy we really like suddenly gives us the silent treatment because we won’t have sex with him, that’s basically calculated to take advantage of insecurities. And yes, it will probably work with women who have low self-esteem, or who have never experienced a relationship with a guy who respected them. It might have worked on me when I was much younger.

But just because it would have worked does not mean I would have enjoyed it or felt OK about it later.

A fair number, though not all, of pickup tactics are just like that: they work, but they work because women are likely to feel pressured, or guilty, or anxious. Not because women are likely to feel attracted. This is another reason looking for ethical pickup artists is useful, because most of the evil tactics come from misogynists. (For example, Gunwitch, whose advice often reads like a textbook on date rape, and who once shot a girl in the face because she rejected him.) In the comments below, there is much discussion of specific tactics. Feel free to read and participate.

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… OK, so now that’s all out of the way. Here are some references:

I appreciate Hugh Ristik’s critiques and deconstructions of the pickup artist community. I don’t always agree with him, but feminism and consent both interest him, and he has a much more careful and intelligent approach to those things than any other self-described pickup artist I’ve ever encountered.

The Authentic Man Program has been recommended by a ton of people I trust. Lots of pickup jargon.

SucceedSocially.com is a site full of thoughts on basic social skills, by a guy who’s studied a lot of pickup stuff but specifically does not identify as a pickup artist. Its goal is to get readers from socially below average to average. Seems pretty much pickup jargon–free.

ApproachAnxiety.com has various advice that only occasionally trips my misogyny meter, and also usually features pictures of science fiction chicks. Seems light on pickup jargon.

Zan Perrion and David DeAngelo are often recommended as less-misogynist pickup gurus, but I haven’t looked at much of their stuff so I’m not linking to them. (There’s some criticism of DeAngelo in comments #114, #116.) But I am linking to Juggler at Charisma Arts because he wrote this advice post that made me laugh for five full minutes. Juggler, it should be noted, specifically does not identify as a pickup artist.

Over on the feminist blog Feministe, I once started a thread that drew 322 comments picking apart pickup artistry. Some of the comments are terrible, but many are interesting and perceptive.

I once got the chance to interview the famous pickup artist Neil Strauss, author of 2005 bestseller The Game: Penetrating the Secret Society of Pickup Artists, and he was pretty cool. Here’s some commentary about the interview on Feministe.

If you’re unfamiliar with pickup jargon, welcome to the encyclopedia. Understanding pickup artistry may no longer be worth it to you once you realize how many acronyms are involved.

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See more:

Why Are Men Expected to Make the First Move?

Why Do We Demonize Men Who Are Honest About Their Sexual Needs?

Lit Inspiration: Being Good in Bed Is About Attentiveness

A Good Man’s Guide to Catcalling

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This post originally appeared on Clarisse Thorn’s blog.

—Image Ben Cardy/Flickr


Premium Membership, The Good Men Project

About Clarisse Thorn

Clarisse Thorn is a feminist sex writer who has given workshops all over the USA. She wrote a book about masculinity, dating dynamics, and sex theory called Confessions of a Pickup Artist Chaser; she’s also got a best-of collection called The S&M Feminist. Recently, she released an anthology about sexual assault in virtual worlds called Violation: Rape In Gaming. Clarisse has also explored fiction with short stories like The End Of An Age: A Ramayana. To stay up-to-date with Clarisse’s work, visit her blog or follow her on Twitter.

Comments

  1. “Cosmo, blusher, and push-up bras” are not tools used to deceive men and capitalize on well established insecurities born out of a power imbalance. It is not the same thing. Often times they are further entrapments of men expressing the attitudes described in the article, such as the “freeze-out” technique. This reinforces the idea that women are only good for providing, or at least inspiring thoughts of, sex (since PUAs are often offended at the mere sight of women just minding their own business that they deem ugly).
    These hallmarks of “women game” are unfortunate, BUT it is a result of the same broken system that provides the insecurities that PUAs are capitalizing on.

    • I disagree, I believe that blusher and push-up bras are very much intended to deceive men.

      A natural blush conveys a relaxed state; it is a reflexive reaction meant to convey that a person likes you and is not afraid, and will not run. Wearing blush make-up anywhere but onstage is effectively telling people that you feel relaxed and not alarmed. If you do not feel that way, then the blusher is deceptive.

      Push up bras? Do I even have to say it? They make something smaller look larger. The same as when men stuff their underpants. Deception!

      The Rules are misanthropist all the way around. They belittle both women and men. One of the few books I would willingly burn…except that then we might forget how stupid some humans can be.

      • I’ll be the first to gladly never have to buy high heels or push up bras for the rest of my life.

        I didn’t choose these things… yet I face a pressure to wear them by society …every-fucking-day.

        If I don’t wear them… I don’t get any props for being authentic. No, I get called ‘frumpy’ or ‘unfeminine’ by these same types of douches on here who say it’s sooooooo manipulative.

        Would you guys like it if tomorrow all women stopped wearing sexy clothes? Just walked around in sweats and old oversized soccer jerseys? Hair in a comfy, messy bun?

        Try for some intellectual honesty for once…

        • Sure. go for it.

          Seriously. Then I would never have to wear a ties, I could grow my hair out again, and I could spend the rest of my life in blue jeans

    • When have you had sex with a woman you didn’t want to have sex with?

      How did she trick you into it?

      Riiiiiight…

      Find me the guy who has experienced a freeze out… felt guilty and…gave up the sexy to the wily wimmin.

      PUH-leese.

      • Give me one concrete example. When has a woman who you were in a room with… who was trying to get you to have sex with her… and you did not want to… pulled away from you… and then you felt guilty about not being ‘nice’ to her or worrying about how she though of you… and then you had sex to appease her.

        Just once.

    • Oh how about the whole ‘rating’ system of women?

      Calling women ‘grenades’ or other derogatory terms for ones who are not the ‘targets’?

      • That link doesn’t show anything about what you’re saying?

        Are you saying that *one* woman who made the Duke list = all the PUA literature that dehumanizes women.

        Clearly you have no sense of scope or breadth.

        And as a matter of fact, if you actually read the majority of comments… they were rather harsh towards the creator of the Duke list. The vast marjority of comments said that behavior was unacceptable for either women or men to engage in.

        FAIL.

    • Why men need resources to combat the entitlement mentality of women defrauded by feminism: http://goo.gl/f4pXo

  2. In Ms. Thorn’s eyes, men are going about hitting on women wrong. This is news? I could’ve saved her the time necessary to research and write this piece because we’re aware women think men are doing just about everything wrong. Why is it you think men who have been married for a any substantial amount of time stop talking? Do you think that’s a stereotype? It’s not.
    Why not right an essay about when men are doing the right thing? It would be short and sweet: “When you do what we tell you to do.” Then you have time left over to write about how victimized women are by society.
    For instance, are you aware of the evil system Ren wrote of, the one forcing wearing to wear make-up?

    • SallyStrange says:

      “Women think men are doing just about everything wrong”

      Nice stereotype there. Yup, stereotype, stereotype, stereotype. That’s all you’ve got. And that’s why you (YOU THE INDIVIDUAL, not you, men, collective) fail–stereotyping is just lazy thinking.

      Treating stereotypes as a useful guide to human behavior is like treating the average width of a river as a useful guide for how to build a bridge.

      • I have no choice but to speak in generalities because, to carry your metaphor, I can’t measure each river. We’re didcussing how tens of millions of people interact; I can’t interview them all and come back with conclusive information. I can only represent the experiences of myself, my friends, and what seems to be the experience of the male population IN GENERAL. Hence the popular George Carlin line: “If a man says something in the woods, and there isn’t a woman there to hear him…is he still wrong?”
        If what I wrote had no grain of truth, no one would laugh at that because we wouldn’t know what the hell he was talking about.
        I am aware though that I broke a contemporary social convention by suggesting women may have faults, not ascribing someone or something to blame, and thereby absolving them of accountability for those faults.

        The preceding message was brought to you by my lazy thinking. :-)

  3. Where are your examples of the double standard in this article? I do not see where the author compared men’s bad behaviour with women’s behaviour. I only see that the author compared men’s bad behaviour with men’s good behaviour.

    • Let’s face it, women aren’t qualified to give men advice on picking up women. They are terrible at it.

      For men who don’t want to be duped by all the con artists in the pickup industry just looking to make a quick buck off of socially naive guys, they should check out “The Principles of Social Competence” , a free ebook. I put it as a link on my name.

      • I am confused as to why women aren’t qualified to give pick-up advice? Aren’t we better qualified than most men, because we know what we and our friends look for when being picked up? No, what we want doesn’t necessarily apply to all women, but the advice these professional pick-up artists tout, as Clarisse mentioned, doesn’t either. No one is capable of giving pick-up advice that works 100% of the time, but I really think women will do a better job at helping remind guys that the ladies they’re flirting with are human beings, not just sex objects.

        • The trouble, Alicia, at least according to game, is that you don’t know what you are looking for. As long as you reward the “cool” guys, the not-so-cool guys will try to become cool; and you don’t seem cool to women by treating them as “human beings”.

        • No Alicia. Most women have no clue what they want. Which is why they say they want one thing publicly, but through experience, guys know that women are either lying or ignorant of their own needs. If women’s advice actually worked, there wouldn’t be the ridiculous amount of dating confusion that there is today.

          You don’t even have the mental capacity to grasp the fact that if men’s advice works for a large segment of the population, other guys are obviously going to follow it. Like most women, you believe in wishful thinking over rational common sense. The fact that you even need to throw in your silly “100%” qualifier is indicative of your limited mental capacity compared to men’s analytical powers.

          Guys really aren’t interested in your childish, self-serving opinions (correction: REAL men aren’t. I’m sure there are emasculated guys running the GMP who would love to be the “gay best friend” who never gets laid).

          • Most men only want one thing. Men are just walking penises. Men are dumb. Teehee.

            See what I did there.

            Generalizations are fun.

        • No Alicia, you’re not. That’s the same clueless answer most women give. They have no grasp of common sense as you so aptly demonstrate.

          Who are you going to trust; a woman who CLAIMS to know what females want or a guy who ACTUALLY DATES WOMEN and knows how to get what a guy wants in a woman?

          If you have a brain, the answer is pretty simple.

        • because you’ve never tried to pick up a straight woman. duh. You can’t advise on something with which you have no experience.

      • I am reading “The Principles of Social Competence” right now. Very interesting.

        Thanks Amanda!

        PS. I am also telling my friends about. DS.

    • 90% of the “game” that PUA gurus are running is on the GUYS they’re selling their programs to.

      With men increasingly staying at home in front of their computers (from ever-earlier ages), social skills, which can only be learned by interacting with live people, are disappearing. “Pickup artists” existed for decades before, but only in the age of PowerPoint spreadsheets and e-books has “PUA training” become the multimillion-dollar business it is today.

      But the REAL secret, and what I tell my readers, is that 90% of learning to meet women involves simply getting out and talking to them. If you spend the time actually enjoying the company of people, instead of treating it like being anally probed by aliens, you WILL develop social skills, without spending a penny learning “negs” and “freeze-outs.”

      You can spend all the money you want on pickup “training,” ethical or not – it’s money down the crapper if you don’t get out of the house on a regular basis. The more you get out of the house, the more actual women you deal with, the less training you need.

      • Sure, Michael – if you’re content with being just friends with women. If you’re not, you’ll need something stronger, ie, you’ll ned game.

  4. Why are you bringing up “The Rules”, which is by and large hugely derided by modern feminists? Just because something is done by women doesn’t make it feminist…

    • I don’t think the female game is any more well-established than the male game. Is it talked about more openly? Possibly. Cosmo certainly makes no effort to hide it’s ridiculous, laughable attempts at advice, but it’s not like men haven’t been picking up women for centuries. It’s a duel game of cat and mouse that’s been played since time immemorial. Does that make deceit okay? No, but both sides are guilty of that and until we bust Cosmo as being chock full of BS and these PUAs as being wankers, then it will continue. Even once the main sources of deceit are shot down, it will likely continue, unfortunately. All any of us can do is recognize that and actively decide to not practice it in our own lives. It does no good blaming the other side when plenty of men realize these guys are jerks and plenty of women realize Cosmo is wrong.

      • Happily Married says:

        Hook, you seem awfully caught up in supermarket check-out lane reading material. We are all so much more than that and none of what this article, or the articles/books you mention, is new. As my grandmother once put it, “Women have always ruled the world from the pillow.” Maybe women honed their “game” over the many centuries of having little to no political or economic power. But men were manipulating women then as well. Now that women have political and economic freedom, the situation seems more muddled, instead of less. So I ask, is the “game” just about sex? Is it power? Is it, as some have mentioned, about getting past social awkwardness in the hopes of finding someone?

        • Happily Married says:

          Wow. Insecure much? I had no idea I was attacking you! I thought this was an intelligent discussion. I guess I was wrong. It does seem like you don’t like women much. BTW, I only found this site today. I won’t be back. So, if it was your goal to win as a cyber bully, then I guess you won. Woo-hoo for you. I have no need or desire to get into a “pissing contest” with you. That is what you good old boys call it, right? BTW, if you resent having to respond, why do you? No one is holding a gun to your head making you type.

          • Old Dude says:

            Hook, blowing your stack at what Happily Married wrote was totally off the mark. Your credibility is zero, now. Try reading for comprehension.

  5. SallyStrange says:

    There’s no magic bullet. Getting in a good relationship with someone and staying in it takes work–mostly paying attention to that other person.

    Sorry.

    If you’re having trouble paying attention to other people’s social cues, try some body language and facial expression primers. There are some very good ones out there. Me, I’m about to pick up “Emotions Revealed” by Paul Ekman, not because I need to get a date, but because I’m interested in that sort of thing.

    • Natasha says:

      But PUA is not about securing an LTR…it’s about the pick up, the hook up and the sex. Sure an LTR may develop, but no one is going to these classes to find their “One”…they’re going there to find their “For the Night”.

      Quite frankly, I think it’s bizarre that a feminist, even one who is sex positive and bdsm friendly, and one I transiently follow in the blogosphere, is teaching PUA.

      • How is treating women like targets instead of humans helping promote men’s rights? Clarisse didn’t dismiss pick-up artistry out-of-hand, she dismissed misogyny. There’s a very big difference, as she later showed by providing links and names that allow for some acceptance of women as real people. Why do men’s rights and feminism have to be exclusive? If both sides want equality then that means both sides have to treat the other like human beings deserving of respect. Otherwise we’re just chasing our own tails and not doing anything to help either cause.

        Do women have some privileges men do not? Yes. Yet men still maintain some privilege as well. How about we even the playing field. No wage gap, no ladies night. Radical feminists stop bashing men, radical MRAs stop bashing women. I want us all to be equal, really truly want and live daily trying to make sure I give no one preference based on gender, race, orientation, class, etc. However, as long as some radical MRAs continue to bash anything that allows women respect and equal opportunity, it’s really hard to side in a fight with reasonable, moderate MRAs.

  6. I have several huge problems with this piece.

    First of all, so what if men are out to get laid? Where is it written that all men should be out there with the sole purpose of finding a soul mate? Some men just want to meet a woman for a good time, and as long as that good time is consensual then I see no problem whatsoever. Saying that all men have an obligation to be gentlemanly in their sexual pursuits is oblivious to the fact that one-night stands aren’t always a negative thing.

    Second, are we really pretending women don’t use similar, if not worse, tactics on men? Do really think men invented the freeze out?? That’s a go-to move created and perfected by women. Whether or not a couple has sex is most often dependent on the woman giving the green light. And there are absolutely some women who withhold sex as punishment or to get their way. Please don’t pretend that doesn’t happen, because it absolutely does. To ignore that is being disingenuous.

    I love how you have a problem with how some men effectively use tricks to pick up women, but Sex & the City is a multi-billion dollar hit among women. Give me a break.

    • Sex and the City is a fictional work of television.

      You know this right?

      And not all women like that show. Me, I hated it. I can’t stand even watching five minutes of that garbage.

      • 1.) While I’m flattered you think I am youthful enough to be a teen… it’s pretty lame to try to infantalize me. Whatever, you’re trying to bait me with the whole, typical ‘talk down to her’ approach. Been there, seen that. Won’t work.

        2.) You tried to make an argument that Sex in the City was somehow equivalent to the PUAs whose stock and trade is the objectification and ‘knocking down a peg’ of women. I point out that PUAs are real people that run expensive seminars in hotels that get paid by men of all stripes desperate to emulate them… and that Samantha on Sex and the City… is not a real person. She is a stock character in a comedy show that I think most intelligent adults can agree is not someone you can or should emulate to a T.

        • Wow. I thought you were kid also, not due to an attempt to infantilize you, just a general impression. That’s not good!

          Have you met that SpookyTimes guy? I think you two are opposite sides of the same coin. Neither of you are helping here (btw, society does not make you wear any type of clothing. It’s your choice. STOP making a victim of yourself! Stand up!)

        • Natasha says:

          But the fact that Samantha was pretty much hero worshipped as the woman to be most like — sexually “empowered”, CEO of her own company, and dated ‘like a man’ — is indicative of the (then and now) cultural norm, or the norm the culture was striving for. Yes SINTC was a sitcom of sorts, but the media is reflective of the culture it lives in.

          And quite honestly, I had you pegged at about 17 or 19…

          • Sara, I didn’t have you pegged as a teenager or child. I thought you had well written thoughts. And I do think the reference to your supposed age, which has absoluetly nothing to do with discussing the topic, was an attemtp to infantalize you.

            By the way, the media is *sometimes* reflective of the culture we live in. It also hyper extends depictions of reality to make it more interesting and even some times bases it’s output on fantasy not reality. Trends don’t only develop because there is an interest in them with no media sway. It’s amazing how easily advertising and exposure works on us to change the way we think or feel about any number of issues or products.

            But if you are someone that believe media is only reflective of our culture, then lets also look at media’s that appeal to some men. Again, I must mention porn because there are some things in porn that are down right abusive to women. I also want to metention popular video games like Grand Theft Auto, where you can run over hookers and do any other number of salicious acts. There is another video game set to come out called Duke Nukem. In this video game, you can visit porn shops, win awards from lesbian school girls while abudcting a stripper that needs saving and sometimes giving her a “reassuring slap” if she becomes out of control. If SINTC says something about women, what do these popular media avenues say about men?

            • GirlGlad4theGMP says:

              I agree with Erin. SATC was more often a reflection of what was already happening in mainstream dating.
              And no, Samantha wasn’t hero-worshipped as the one to be like. Part of the attraction of the show was based on the commonalities between 4 distinct personalities, that made it relatable. Even the Upper east side princess want’s to feel like a sex goddess from time to time. Even the sexually progressive can fall in love.
              The other part of it: the bond between the women, which is mostly irrelevant to this discussion except to say it was a big part of why the show was so popular, not because it teaches women about dating ‘tricks’.

              Additionally, yes women fall for the bad ones (not me, I’m evolved, lol).
              The other side to that is that men often fall for the bad ones too…if I had a dime for every time a man though it was ‘sexy’ to see me angry a them, or was turned on by getting treated like dirt by a women, I’d buy myself a a steak and a glass of wine! What does that say about us in general?

        • “While I’m flattered you think I am youthful enough to be a teen”

          There is nothing flattering abut being called a teenager. It’s a straight up insult, whatever the circumstances, and a little uncalled for here. Young = stupid.

      • Yes, I’m aware it’s a TV show. But it’s a show women genuinely related to. At least the vast majority of women I know. They’d talk about who they most resembled and how they sometimes emulate the characters precisely. So while that show does not speak for all womankind, it does ring true for some women.

        Yet I can never recall any outcry from anyone talking about how those ladies were working men over or objectifying them. Just food for thought.

        • GirlGlad4theGMP, great points and observations about the show.

          Daddy Files, and what about shows like Sopranos? That was a very popular HBO show that I know appealed to men with the violence and sex. It showcased a middle aged baldling, over weight man that had a mistress and was sometimes in the company of strippers or hookers. I never even watched the show that much but whenever I caught a glimpes of it, there seemed to be some kind of young busty girl or stripper on there.

          Also, what about porn? How that protrays women? Do most men you know feel disgust for the objectifcation of women in porn? For depictions of older men having fun with 18 year old strippers and cheating on their wife in tv plots?

          I love how men get so worked about about SATC , one tv show. Vs never saying boo about porn, a multi billion dollar industry that has built many more stereotypes and objectifications of women then SATC ever did on men.

          • I’m supposed to feel bad for how women are treated in porn? They’re getting paid!!! They’re willingly entering into an agreement to perform and being compensated for said performance. And the Sopranos revolved around how pathetic Tony Soprano was for acting the way he did. He wasn’t worshipped, he was a posterchild for failure. So your comparison doesn’t hold water.

            • My comparsion holds a lot of water.

              I didn’t say Tony Soprano was worshipped. I said a number of men responded to that show because that’s mostly who the show was popular with. They liked the violence. They liked the sex. I never heard one man get in a stink about how Tony Soprano was protrayed treating the woman in his family or his over all atttitude toward women and worried that other men were going to get bad ideas.

              And yes, of course women in porn agree to be in it. Just as the men in the SATC franchise agreed to be in it Daddy Files. You think the men in the SATC weren’t paid? Where forced to act in it? No.

              But that doesn’t mean there aren’t stereotypes and objectifications made about our retrospective genderes in entertainment that’s designed to appeal to men or women. It doesn’t mean you as a man can’t look at it and recongnize certain negative messages about men in them.

              Are you suppose to feel bad for how the women are treated in porn? How about you feel bad for the way they are treated in porn and for how they are depicted in porn and the stereotypes and obecjtifications that are made about women in general in porn that far exceeds anything ever made about men in the SATC franchise. At least be fair about it. You don’t like the messages being put out there in the SATC franchise. Fair enough. I don’t blame you. I can understand. But at least be hoenst enough to admit that media designed for men isn’t much better and have the fairness to object to that as much as you would negative depictions of men as well.

    • Anonymous says:

      “First of all, so what if men are out to get laid? Where is it written that all men should be out there with the sole purpose of finding a soul mate? Some men just want to meet a woman for a good time, and as long as that good time is consensual then I see no problem whatsoever. Saying that all men have an obligation to be gentlemanly in their sexual pursuits is oblivious to the fact that one-night stands aren’t always a negative thing.”

      Dang it, I was going to say something just like that:

      I don’t think a short-term, no strings attached sexual dalliance is necessarily worse than any other kind of relationship. There are men and women out there who at times want nothing more or less than that in a given evening. (Maybe men do more often than women do, but it’s not a male monopoly.) It’s certainly not inherently exploitative, and I would argue it’s not necessarily a failure to grant others full respect. A one-night stand can actually be very respectful of another person, can even be quite gentlemanly and egalitarian, while a long-term exclusive relationship can be brutally disrespectful.

    • I’m going to piggy back on the discussion of personal responsibility regarding how we treat those we want something from.

      If two people are completely on the same page and only looking for a one-night stand, I don’t see an issue either.

      If one person is trying to manipulate the other into doing something for their own selfish gratification, through fake kindness, affection or interest, that’s a problem. It’s my own personal opinion that we all have a human responsibility to not exploit the weaknesses of another person for our own pleasure.

      Why shouldn’t a man have a “gentlemanly obligation” to treat a woman with fairness? Even in their sexual pursuits? Does raw male sexual desire automatically negate any responsibility or respect toward women?

      I look at it this way. I don’t go out with men for dinner if I’m not really interested. I don’t let them take me to fancy events if I’m not really interested in them. Even though the free meal and fancy even would be fun. Why? Because despite the pleasure I could get from him in form of money or non-sexual activity, I don’t want to use him for my own pursuits. And I don’t think there are many men here that would want to be used like that anyway. Just like women, more often then not, don’t want to be used for just sex. It’s just as easy for a man to use a woman for sex as it is for a woman to use a man for money.

      As for being “freezed out” regarding sex, there’s a couple things that need to be discussed. When I’m pissed at a guy I’m in a relationship with him, I don’t feel like having sex with him. I’m not “freezing” him out because of some kind of twisted view of “punishment”. If we are in the middle of fighting, I don’t feel like having sex with him because the emotional connection isn’t in a healthy place at that time.

      Comparing a fighting couple where the woman doesn’t want to engage in sex because she’s fighting with her partner; to a man that doesn’t have a steady relationship with a woman but turns his cheek and ignores the woman like a little boy who didn’t get a cookie when she refuses him sexually, are two different things. Women might have the “green light” for sex, but men have the “green light” for relationships. If attention, affection and even a couple dates aren’t enough for a man being committed to a woman, then don’t be hypocritical enough to say that if a woman doesn’t have sex with a man she’s “freezing” him out or playing some kind of game.

      I’m going to leave the Sex & the City comment alone. I’m so sick of hearing guys complain about Sex & the City but they don’t ever seem to work up the same amount of anger for a show like Sopranos that was all about show casing a balding, middle aged man, in a position of power, with mistresses and strippers. Or lets even talk about porn. Which is about 10 times as degrading to women then Sex & The City ever was to men.

      • I had given up on this discussion until I read your post. Well said, reasonable, tolerant thoughts. Thank you.

        I’m going to leave the last paragraph alone. If we’re going to use Sex & The City and The Sopranos as the language for this discussion, I’m getting back out. We might as well use as exemplars those two morons with the eight children who put their personal business on TV.

      • Coburn is right. That was a great comment, Erin – reasonable, decent, humane. Thanks.

      • Anonymous Male says:

        My issue with SATC, the few episodes I’ve actually seen (I swear!) is not that as a man I feel degraded, just that many of the scenarios seem so uncommon as to be hardly representative of men at all. I remember one episode quite distinctly where the big issue was all these men who only date models and no one else. Even in parts of NYC and LA, is this really a major problem in the dating scene?

        • I’m not sure. I’m not a model so I wouldn’t know. I suspect there might be a little truth to it with maybe men that are actually in the business? A very very limited group, certainly not nearly true for men in general. It’s not a positive image of men though. And I understand why guys would question it.

          But you know what? I see images of how women are projected in media that’s meant to appeal to men that has nothing to do with being a fair representation of what a real woman is. Those girls on Maxim? I’m nothing like them. Not to mention how they are only portrayed for their sexuality. Not for who they are as people. Those girls in porn? I really think it’s shitty how women are portrayed in porn. And when I was younger, I tried to act more like them because I knew that’s what men liked. But that had nothing to do with who I really was. But I got more praise from my boyfriends for mimicking “pornstars” then I did for acting like just normal me. So I wonder how many other women fall pray to that. They know men like porn, they see how those girls act, and the mimick it. And that’s such a huge business for men. So when I see guys complain about the SATC franchise, I just shake my head because I would bet I million dollars that those guys probably look at porn. So it’s okay to objectify and stereotype women. But it’s not okay to objectify and stereotype men.

          No most men certainly aren’t “model chasers” and don’t even want to be. And most women aren’t sexually available school girls and cheerleaders. And they don’t want to be either. But men sure do like those objectifications.

  7. Christ,

    Society does in fact make people wear clothes. The fact that you’d be arrested for walking around naked is proof. But…

    What I meant was not that literally there were fashion police waking me up in the morning shoving stilettos on my feet… but that the pressures and shaming tactics for not presenting ‘femininity’ are more subtle.

    It’s a ‘damned if you do’ and ‘damned if you don’t’ situation. If I go out wearing the heels, make-up, and push up bra I’m accused of being ‘manipulative’ or a ‘temptress’ that is evilly seduces the menz. If I don’t … then I’m ‘frumpy’ ‘don’t care about my looks’ ‘ugly’ ‘lesbian’ and ‘fun hater.’

    Similarly… there are pressures for presenting masculinity… which are also subtle.

    You’re obtuse trying to make me to be saying something I didn’t. Not once did I claim to be a victim or state that women are solely victims.

    • SecondBeach says:

      The solution is clearly to start hitting on “frumpy” looking women. Encourage other men to do the same. Validate women who don’t play temptress.

      And if some playboy bunny saunters up to you in a bar, eyelids heavy with makeup and breasts pushed to the ceiling, politely say “no thank you” and go buy the nice lady who looks like your gym teacher a drink : )

  8. Johnny_B says:

    It’s a shame that most feminist sites take a ‘damned if you do, damned if you don’t approach to this issue. Pickup artists are demonized, but at the same time a guy who’s genuinely looking for dating advice is ridiculed and told that he probably doesn’t deserve to be with someone. At least this article, though written by a woman and a feminist, doesn’t take a mocking, snarky tone and actually tries to be helpful without ridiculing its target(s). A good start, I guess.

    I have one comment regarding the male game/female game thing: One big difference between the two is that men are usually ‘taught’ how to be more aggressive and predatory. Women are taught how to make themselves more available/appear easier targets. One is active game, the other is passive, but both seem to place the men in a position of power. I’m not sure I agree with that, personally I’m not hugely invested in ‘traditional gender roles’ and would be quite happy if more girls took the initiative at least some of the time.

    • SecondBeach says:

      Women will be the gatekeepers of sex as long as society tells them they’re dirty sluts if they DON’T play gatekeeper.

      The necessary corollary to the death of PUA’s is the death of any of the intentional mind games women play. The article would have done well to note that. Is it surprising PUA’s teach each other to ‘chase women’ when society tells women that they should ‘be chased’? However, the fact that (some) women can be manipulative doesn’t absolve or justify manipulative men. It’s escalation and military history shows us how that ends.

      The games both men and women play just need to die.

      • Women might have a leg up deciding when sex is going to happen. But men have the leg up on deciding when a relationship is going to happen. Usually, women want relationships more and men want sex more. Stereotypes yes, but in general, the other gender has something the other gender wants. It’s not just a matter of women being “gate keepers” and having all this power and men have no choices of their own.

  9. Veeness, great post.

  10. SecondBeach says:

    So few of these comments are about the topic at hand. This is an article critiquing PUA’s. There are plenty of other articles elsewhere critiquing the games WOMEN are encouraged to play. As a note, any woman I’ve ever met that hated PUA’s also hated the Rules, avoided advice in Cosmo and found guides to ‘landing a man’ manipulative, shallow and silly.

    Healthy relationships, if that’s what you’re looking for, are not founded on games; they’re ruined by them.

    Hot sex, if that’s what you’re looking for, isn’t founded on manipulation and insecurities. If you think it is – if you actually WANT to sleep with women you needed to emotionally manipulate into having sex with you – then you probably have some bigger problems that need solving.

  11. A-hook: Subjective. “You keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”

  12. SecondBeach says:

    Sex and the City was the first show to put female sexual desire in the spotlight.

    The Good: it gave permission for women to feel ok having desires and sleeping around a little.

    (perspective of guy who enjoys getting laid: women who aren’t repressing desires and feel comfortable sleeping around a little is a GOOD thing. Let’s encourage that move away from shame and passivity.)

    The Bad: shallow, selfish main characters who often looked for materialistic qualities in man and who (especially Samantha) strayed into Objectification territory waaaaaay to often. Making it ok for women to talk about wanting sex? Good. Looking at men like walking penises? Bad.

  13. Old Dude says:

    Dating is a very important part of human existence. It is biologically driven and societies have many rules about it. When someone calls it “game” and trots out an endless series of sterotypes about women and men, I find that sad. Sex is something a mature person shares, it is not a contest.

  14. I’m seriously considering trying to learn the whole pickup artist thing. I’m 22 and I’ve had sex once and the girl was old, fat and unattractive but I couldn’t stand being a virgin any longer. I grew up in a family full of feminists — no males at all except for me — and I got to learn “what women want from a man.” To put it bluntly… it’s a giant load of bullshit. I was the definition of the nice guy. Kind, caring, thoughtful, generous, romantic, polite, etc, etc, etc. You know what I got as a result? Tons and tons of female friends! Just what I wanted… friends. Gotta love female friends, being the shoulder to cry on, listening to them complain endlessly about asshole boyfriends and yet here’s this really nice, really kind guy, who is everything they claim they want in a man and the only thing I ever hear from them is “let’s just be friends” “can’t we just be friends?” “I love you as a friend” etc, etc, etc.

    Being friends doesn’t get my dick wet and it doesn’t help my confidence. The simple fact of the matter is that being raised by women and being taught how to treat women by women was the single worst thing that happened to me in being able to interact with women.

    • Well, tell you what, Dave. I grew up in a family that was militantly anti-feminist; whenever I was around my extended family, I was told I was too opinionated, too much of a tomboy, not focussed enough on my appearance, and that no guy would ever want to marry someone like me. That’s not even from the female side of my family – that’s from my ultra-dick uncles (guys so assholish even my dad doesn’t like spending time with them). I was told exactly what men wanted – and that I offered none of them, and despite my academic and athletic excellence, that I pretty much had no purpose in life.

      You know when it was that I found a decent dude I could bump uglies with? When I got over the idiotic crap I’d internalised as a child that I had to be passive, quiet, ultra-feminine and semi-helpless. When I stopped saying “I’m not one of *those* feminists, I don’t hate men like those sluts”, I actually found that my opinion of men changed for the positive. When I stopped holding these weird benevolent sexist ideas of what dudes should do for me, like opening doors or paying for my meal, I actually got to meet pleasant and decent people.

      Stop thinking “what women want”. We’re not a homologous borg of concurrence and identical opinions. Find someone you like – someone who is pleasant, and who you find attractive. Find out what *she* wants. Offer it. If she doesn’t accept it, then suck it up – that’s life, and while you live in a liberal democracy without the power of mind control, you can’t force someone to do something against their will.

      And secondly, you aren’t entitled to anyone hot. Even hot people aren’t entitled to other hot people. You’re entitled to someone who will treat you decent; anything after that is just an optional extra.

      • You’re a woman; you don’t have to work to get laid. All you have to do is sit there and wait for men to come to you. That isn’t an option for men, unfortunately.

        • Dude, that’s kind of an insulting and unpleasant thing to say. I’m not an especially attractive person – I am sure if I offered myself to a hundred dudes, my success rate would be in the low single-digits, if that. I was lucky that the one time I made a move on someone that it worked out for me – all I had was statistical luck.

          Maybe you have self-esteem issues or the sort of depression that perpetuates negative and self-defeating thinking patterns, I don’t know. But when you make comments like that then potentially you need to look at the image of yourself that you’re projecting outward to people. If I were hypothetically looking for a boyfriend and I heard comments like that, I wouldn’t be very inclined to stick around with someone who said those things. My time on earth is short and I’m not going to spend it with the unpleasant.

          Just buying people dinner isn’t the be-all and end-all of nice. There’s a difference between having character and a great personality and being a suck-up by buying people’s affection. And of course a subset of women are going to exploit your generosity if you offer gifts and money. The same thing happens to people who endlessly offer favours or help to other people. I offered free tuition to a number of kids at my school, and suddenly I was inundated with demands from the lazy parents of even lazier children. Point is, lots of people are dicks, but not all. If you don’t want to buy gifts or dinners out to attract women then don’t.

      • Also, I have done what SHE wants and THAT is the problem. Because I do stuff that THEY want, and I care about what they think, they think to themselves, “Oooh, fresh meat to take advantage of! I wonder what I can get out of this sucker.” And they inevitably get dinners, gifts, etc because I’m nice to the point of being a sucker.

        • SecondBeach says:

          Then that’s your problem. You don’t need to be a misogynist or listen to PUA’s, you just need a backbone. Distance yourself from these leach-like women, who may not realize they are harming you but who clearly are. Dinner and gifts don’t make you a good guy or a nice guy. They make you a desperate guy. Desperation is universally unattractive. Don’t play pick up games, just be confident and try and find a new crowd. Friends of mine who kept getting put on the ‘friend’ bench have had lots of luck with dating sites because no one is there to find friends, there’s only women there who are actively looking for someone. By even being on a site, they’re already moving away from the passive game women often play where they expect men to come to them. And you want a proactive woman who knows what she’s looking for, right?

          And I second the “no one is entitled to hot people.” I’m passing that one on.

        • SecondBeach says:

          Also, don’t stay friends with woman you have ONLY romantic interest in! That’s not a real friendship. Not fair to them, DEFINITELY not fair to you, and projects an image of you (not over the ‘friend’, not looking to date) that might hurt future chances with other women.

  15. Dave, I’m not so sure you’re as good a guy as you seem to think you are. C.F. “get my dick wet.”

    • I guess it’s a crime to want to get laid? Forgive me for being sick and tired of having the only way I get to orgasm is from my hand. No, you’re right, I’m definitely not a nice guy because I want to get laid for the second time in my incredibly long and extremely sex-empty life.

      • It’s not a crime to want to get laid, but maybe you should figure out why no one wants to sleep with you.

        • The only thing I can think of is lack of confidence because every time I’ve tried to get laid or even get a date has been a complete and total disaster. Batting .000 will do a number on one’s confidence. Objectively speaking, I’m quite a catch.

          • So I should just let her know she’s a bitch because that’s really what I wanted to say?

            • Well, It looks like what I wanted to say got moderated!

            • Yeah, well, you don’t know sadistic harpies until you’ve met my family. Let’s just say I was beaten for being a boy. When I say militant feminists, I mean militant. If I got caught not holding the door open for a woman, I’d get beaten until I bled.

            • That Girl says:

              Troll

            • That Girl says:

              There are a lot of trolls on this site cleverly disguising themselves as victims.

          • That Girl says:

            Maybe you should find a prostitute because it sounds like all you want is sex not a real relationship. And maybe you should not blame your childhood upbginrging for your lack of sexuality.

            I.E>>> “The simple fact of the matter is that being raised by women and being taught how to treat women by women was the single worst thing that happened to me in being able to interact with women.”

  16. Wow, lots of comments. I’ve been inside a lair, I’ve known a lot of pick up artists. I was the victim of a pick up artist (soon to be engaged to). Here’s the thing.

    It’s a program for nerds. Men who are bad at talking to women become pick up artists.

    Now, I have seen it change losers into functioning males. It can work, but it *is* all about social skills. Pick up theory teaches men to get over themselves and just go for it, but they often do this by teaching him to make her feel uncomfortable. This is not cool.

    Like the author says. Gold in the sewer.

    • Old Dude says:

      Jen, it’s a waste of time here. This blog is inhabited by some really weird people. Dave admitted to being abused as a child, and Hook dishes out verbel abuse but cries when anyone politely disaggrees with him. Truely weird.

      • Johnny_B says:

        Meh, it’s still miles better than some ‘progressive’ feminist blogs I could name, where newcomers get shouted down, insulted and subsequently banned if they dare disagree with the official party line set by the blog’s author and his/her cronies. At least here you get a variety of viewpoints and a real discussion, not just a clique of extremists agreeing with each other.

        Jen: I wouldn’t say nerds really. I know a guy who’s just about the biggest nerd you can imagine, and he’s had 2 girlfriends since I’ve known him. Let’s call them socially awkward people. And yeah, when they’ve got a choice between women who merely insult them while giving no advice (see abovementioned feminist blogs and their endless bashing of ‘nice guys’, bad guys, and just about every guy in general) and PUAs who claim to have the answers, of course they’ll listen to the PUAs.

        Yeah, the real answer seems to be to stop focusing on ‘getting women’ and focusing on oneself instead – improving as a person and building a fun, healthy and interesting life. But that takes hard work and it doesn’t sell books.

    • “functioning males”?? get the hell over yourself

  17. You are kidding right Veenees?
    There is so much main stream media geared to men that does treat, show and talk about women in terms of T&A. From sports (cheerleaders) music (video girls), to movies (it’s amazing how many older male actors are paired with younger actresses), to video games (Grand Theft Auto and DukeNukem), to freaking beer commercials (girls and bikinis aren’t any strangers to them) that all highlight women’s bodies over anything else. All these depictions, depict women as just sexual toys. Not people. Not human beings. Not women with real thoughts. And certainly not women over 40. So really? “That movie”, that you claim never would have been made had it been a man objectifying a woman, “that movie” is made all the time. In countless media forms that are popular with men. Again, I must mention porn. Because whenever topics about women objectifying men comes up, a lot of guys all the sudden forget that there is a whole industry dedicated to stereotyping and objectifying women for just sex.
    Secondly, what is Feminism Veenees? It was a response to the lack of balance and equality women experienced 40 years ago due to men giving themselves more privileges then they afforded women. So if your going to defend misogyny on the back of Feminism, then isn’t it fair to defend feminism on the back of misandry? And if that was the case, if that’s how a man really felt, how could you possibly even fault Feminism. You would be one to understand why it came around in the first place even if the movement wasn’t perfect. Feminism was response to a group of people feeling that women weren’t treated fairly. And lets be honest, they weren’t. Women weren’t afforded the same luxuries men were at that time in history. In current culture, there are new issues men face. Issues worthy of discussing and issues worthy for women to take notes on. But men still hold most positions of power and men still make more money on average then women.

    • What’s with you & porn, Erin. You coming off kind of obsessed, you’ve mentioned it in every post & comment.
      I know many women who feel like Veenees. They quite simply feel feminism accomplished it’s goal, they don’t see men as the enemy, and they don’t want to be constantly haranguing (as she said) and chastising them . Clearly not a sentiment widely shared as this discussion has, for the most part, deteriorated into men vs. women.

    • SecondBeach says:

      Many of your criticisms of feminism have been reasonable, but that last masturbation crack brings down your level of discourse. While I know plenty of anti-porn feminists, I have yet to meet a self-identified feminist against masturbation. Lot’s of religious fundamentalists who view it as sinful and adulterous, lots of non-feminist women made very uncomfortable by it, but no self-identified feminists who are on the warpath against it. The 3rd wave, sex-positive feminists actually seem to have a lot of good things to say about masturbation for all parties and are waaaaaaaay less misandrist then their intellectual predecessors, probably because the 3rd wave feminists are skeptical of gender as a whole (making misandry moot) and are interested in the way different axises of oppression overlap (race, class, disability, orientation), forcing them to engage with a much broader community,

      Kudos on recognizing the rise of queer porn and women-focused porn. However, while this is the fastest growing sector of the industry (and the one best weathering the recession), it’s still a niche market and not the depiction of women most consumers (hetero men) watch or even know about.

      • Coburn:

        “What’s with you & porn, Erin. You coming off kind of obsessed, you’ve mentioned it in every post & comment.”

        I mentioned it so often because my point’s been evaded thus far.

        SATC is one franchise. Porn is an entire multi-billion dollar industry. A number of men have commented that they don’t like the SATC franchise because of it’s attitude toward men, how it objectifies them, the ideas they think women are getting from them. So I’d like to know how these men feel about porn. Do they think that porn objectifies women? Do they think men get ideas about women from porn? Do they like the attitude porn has for women? Do they feel just as annoyed about the objectifications of women in porn as they do of the objectifications of men in SATC? Why aren’t these men getting just as upset about depictions of women in porn? Depictions of women in the other popular HBO tv show The Sopranos that portrayed a married man sleeping with a mistress, running an illegal business and often visiting strip clubs while his wife wasn’t around. How are these depictions any better? But for some reason, I don’t see the same out cry for The Sopranos; making claims that men are going to get bad ideas and that women are being objectified.
        —————————————————-
        Veeness:

        That whole “I stopped drinking the feminism kool-aid” is really quite a pointless comment designed to set your own view points up as the “right” one over anyone that thinks differently. It’s also an intellectually dishonest and overplayed phrase. Especially for anyone that admits that Feminism did achieve certain positive accomplishments.

        Kudos to you though for using Google to find out when the first woman’s rights movement was held. I googled it too…1848 in Seneca Falls, just like goggle said. Nothing wrong with using the internet for information and sharing it. Although it’s a little strange to lecture others considering where you got your information from. I never claimed I was a history buff. I don’t need to know that the first meeting for Feminism was in Seneca Falls. It doesn’t negate my ability to have a well thought out opinion despite your attempt to imply that it does.

        Feminism WAS a response to the lack of balance and inequality women experienced 40 years ago. If you are going to interpret your own meaning and hint at things I never claimed (such as implying that I don’t think Feminism went beyond 40 years) that’s again, intellectually dishonest. My statement wasn’t complete but it is true.

        Aspects of Feminism did good. Other aspects didn’t. There were Feminists that hated men. There were Feminists that loved them. Just as there are Male Rights Movement believers that hate women or love women. But to claim the whole movement was a big waste and was all about hate and abuse of men isn’t even factual. Feminism doesn’t hold sole responsibility for social issues regarding single motherhood, fatherless children and high divorce rates. These are choices men and women made together. This is a cohabitation of choices made by both men and women. This is a cohabitation of events both social and economic dynamics.

        Men do infact hold positions of power that out number women. They also still make more and that has nothing to do with job choices. Johnny Depp is the highest paid male actor earning $75 million for movies. Angelina Jolie is the top earning female actress and she earned $27 million. That’s a huge pay difference. Depp and Jolie are two highly talented people, who both have children, significant others, and people to help them care for their children. There is a huge pay discrepancy between what male actors make vs what female actors make.

        When comparing Jolie’s earned money to other top earning male actors, she comes in under Stiller, Hanks, Sandler and Dicaprio. So out of all the actresses, Angelina earns the most money, yet she still rates below a number of her fellow male actor counterparts. Some actors, that have one less awards then herself. While none of us are the next Depp or Jolie, it shows an interesting social dichotomy on what is willing to be paid for an actor vs an actress.

        You brought up a comment about how women don’t take jobs as construction crane operators or firefighters because they prefer safer and less lucrative jobs. such as nursing and teaching instead. Yes, that’s true only in the context that women aren’t naturally inclined to take jobs as Crane Construction Operators or other dangers, labor intensive, muscle required tasks. So? Crane Operators can make anywhere from $55,000 to $100,000 a year. This isn’t much different from school teachers that can earn inbetween $45,000 to $90,000+ themselves. Even more if your a Superintendent. Not really a job that is dangerous unless you consider the smell of teen spirit to be detrimental to one’s health. It’s even more so for nurses who can pull really good bank and only work a few days a week. Discrepancies in pay can have little to do with the actual job. You can earn just as much as a Crane Operator as you can a Nurse or Teacher. There are many men that are in clerical positions, positions that keep them posted to a desk that still make more then women who do the same job.

        I did enjoy your meager attempt to shame me into joining other causes (causes that I might already be a part of) because women suffer greatly in other parts of the world. First, you have no idea what I concern myself with because of my commentary on topics here. Secondly, that would be like me telling you to do the same, ignore male rights, ignore male issues and the destruction you think Feminism caused because there are infact women that suffer hugely in other parts of the world. And since women suffer in other parts of the world, sometimes more greatly then any man or woman in the states, then no one should be allowed to talk or address issues we face here. That’s a ridiculous mindset considering how multi-dimensional all of us are. Just because children starve in Africa, doesn’t mean I don’t give food to kitchens here in my own state.

        Moving on, I never claimed women were victims. I do think both men and women face different social injustices and if we want to make this world better, then we have to be willing to address both. I’ve seen many men comment on the objectification of men in SATC franchise. One franchise. And yet defend the exploitation and objectification of women in porn. Lets at least be honest and admit that both objectify each gender for the things they don’t want to be taken advantage for. And both genders should make a more aware choice to not engage in these things.

        Lastly, yes I am aware that porn is working to targeting heterosexual woman. They have an untapped market that has thus so far been pretty much ignored. However, that says nothing about how women are objectified in media that’s popular with men. It says nothing about how heterosexual male porn treats women. This is just a deflection, not an address.

        Of course porn, video games and movies are not strictly consumed by men. Again, this has nothing to do with female objectifications in these mediums. Just as I know there are men that have watched and enjoyed SATC. Again, this does nothing to address the fact that a number of men do not like seeing men objectified in SATC but have yet to say anything about the objectification of women in popular male mediums or have an equal out cry for it.

        Further, of course women appearing in porn consent to these movies. Of course it’s their choice. That still does not negate the objectification of women in these movies. It’s just as equally a man’s choice to watch that movie or not. To partake in the objectification or not. Most women aren’t doing porn. Many men are watching it. The men in SATC consented to be in that movie too. That does not mean it’s okay to objectify men in it just because there are male actors that fully decided to be in it.

        Lastly, you mentioned masturbation. Masturbation is great. But it does not need to come at the expense of objectifying a entire gender.

        • Erin, I think no one is responding to some of your topics because this thread has pretty much run its course, and because no one wants to type as much as you did. haha But I don’t want to ignore you, so:

          DaddyFiles responded about the Sopranos and I agree, so that’s that.

          Your porn thing: the way to not objectify women is to see them as thinking, feeling, spiritual beings, coprrect? So how does that work as a practical matter?
          To use a classic scenario: the pizza guy shows up at the door and a woman answers, she has on sweats and no make-up/adornments, they sit on the couch and have an in depth conversation about politcs, art, religion, etc., and then have buck wild sex?

          Honestly, the way you’re freaking, your reaction to Veenees, the thing about masturbation (!!), all say more about your issues than anything about society and gender dynamics.

        • A Man, so it’s asinine for someone to not want to see their gender objectified?

          ———————————————————————-

          Coburn,

          I think no one wants to respond because they see the truth in what I’m putting down. Permitting objectification of women in porn or media that’s popular with men but getting up in arms about it when it comes to media made for women isn’t right. If instead I heard, “gee, yeah I know women aren’t always portrayed that nice when it comes to what men respond to and how can I better consider that”, that would be one thing. But that’s not what’s being said. What’s being said that it’s not okay to objectify men in popular female entertainment but it’s okay to objectify women in popular male entertainment for x, y and z. The Sopranos and SATC where both shows on HBO. Sopranos appealed to men. SATC appealed to women. Both shows made negative gender stereotypes. The only show some of the men here are concerned about is SATC.

          I’m not saying anything people don’t know. I’m not even saying anything that far out there.

          Yes Coburn, I am wordy. But so was Veenhees. We were having a debate and she provided a lot of information and I took time to respond to her points. Why are you not telling her how wordy she is? To describe me as “freaking out” for having a discussion with someone I think is meant to belittle me. You’ve decided to not focus on the actual topic, or on the things I’ve actually said; and instead decided to project a feeling onto me that isn’t even true. That’s not really productive. Even though Veenhees response to me was volatile, we were still having a lucrative debate. You seem more interested in telling me I feel certain things that aren’t even true instead of addressing the things I’ve said that pertain to the discussion.

          I responded to DaddyFiles above if you’re interested in it.

          ———————————————

          MsCarla, I stand by my statement again. I do agree I could have done a little job explaining myself and I’m not ashamed of that. But my statement wasn’t incorrect. And this isn’t really about that statement. This is about all the other statements I made that are being ignored. Not one which you intellectually addressed.
          Kudos to you for taking women studies. You’re personal experience with the class I’m sure is one that happens in many classes over the world. I have no doubt in my mind that there are many unhappy feminists. I have no doubt that there are many happy ones. I do not consider myself a feminist. But even if I did, that really has nothing to do with the subject at hand. You’re attempt to paint me a certain way is easy to see through. You aren’t here to debate points. You didn’t address one pertinent fact from my conversation with Veenhees. You’ve just attempted to label and peg me in a negative manner to discredit my points. The problem with that is that you didn’t really say anything of value about the actual points. Just made slanderous comments that have nothing to do with anything.

          I am sure some men ARE scared off when they see women take things personally. Just as many women are scared off when they see strong MRM advocates too. It’s hard hearing the other gender be vocal about the injustices they feel. That’s going to happen. But Veenhees and I were discussing points and there is nothing wrong with that.

          Tone is also always hard to judge on the internet. Take you for example. My first impression was of someone shrewish. But you know what? I bet you are a very happy person who has the ability to be multidimensional and whose lone commentary on subjects on a message board don’t equate the entirety of your being. So I am going to choose to not see you as a shrew even if that’s the tone to which I read your post with. I am also a very happy go lucky person myself! Just because I respond strongly to certain issues here doesn’t mean there isn’t more to me. Just as that’s true for you and every person here.

          You and Coburn made this post about personally criticizing me instead of deciding to focus on an intelligent debate. I am fine with you disagreeing. Please go ahead and disagree. But disagree with the valid points I made. Don’t make it your mission to instead critique me as a person and set me up with purpously slanderous comments which has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

          • MsCarla, I do need to work on myself. When I stop working on myself, that’s the day I’m dead. You’re certainly not the first poster to try and use that illogical reasoning to defame another poster.

            Every person here is an imperfect being that’s always striving to do better, learn and grow. (Except maybe yourself who is a perfect person, who doesn’t need to work on themselves, that your in a position to share your thoughts over the rest of us.) But amazingly enough, the rest of us are all still able to hold intelligent conversations despite are ever evolving state of imperfection.

            Kind of takes the wind right out of your sails thought doesn’t it. You thought by telling me that I need to work on myself that this would be a good way to use defamation of character to discredit my points. Instead of taking the more intellectual route and actually address my points in a direct and honest fashion.

            There is nothing in your posts that lean to a “trying to be helpful” attitude. Why you even attempted to throw that in there is beyond me. Through personal criticizing, you’ve attempted to attach thoughts and feelings to me that aren’t true. You claim you’re not trying to be offensive even as you make very nasty personal attacks. No one uses the aggressive,

            childish attitude you’ve displayed without trying to be offensive. Calling someone “Creepy” is not rational, “helpful”, intelligent conversation. It’s slanderous and a waste of time.

            As I said before, I brought the porn subject up here because of the issue a few of the men had about how the objectifying of men in the SATC franchise. They had clear concerns and issues with it. I wondered where that thought was for how porn belittles women, which is an even bigger industry. I also compared it to a comparable TV show by the same network that didn’t exactly showcase a healthy attitude about men or women, The Sopranos, but was more popular with men then women. A show that showcased a man cheating on his wife and indulging in sexual pursuits outside his marriage. You again fail to address these points. I continue to reiterate the same points because of your attempt to divert the attention from the subject at hand, to slanderous personal commentary.
            As for porn, I have never in my entire life heard any woman label a man a “pervert” or “rapist” for liking it. Hey, I totally get why men like porn. I just think men are so much better then that. That their sexuality has the ability to be so much better then what porn tells them it is.

            But I agree that no man wants to be labeled for his sexuality in unflattering terms. Either do women though right? How much in porn is about referring to women in sexually negative unflattering terms? (Sl*t, C*nt, B*tch, etc etct..) Quite a bit right? Men don’t want to be labeled negatively for their sexuality. Either do women. Women don’t want to be objectified and stereotyped. EIther do men. This isn’t rocket science.
            Men and women are sometimes wired differently. Very true! That still doesn’t make it okay when we each exploit the other gender in negative view points for our own pursuits.

            Women totally do put themselves in the position to do porn! Just as the men in the SATC franchise put themselves in the position to do that. That doesn’t mean that ideas about men and women aren’t being objectified, stereotyped or abused. Goggle the Pink Ribbon Foundation. It’s a foundation built to help women that have been in the porn industry. I suggest reading their stories.

            There are many media projections of men as being bumbling, incompetent idiots. I totally HATE these stereotypes about men. I’d love to see more positive projections of men being respected and revered for their masculinity. I think this would only be positive for men and women. And i’d like to see men give the same respect to women too. To not give more power to industries that demean women.

            I totally think there were unflattering themes of men in the SATC franchise. But I’d just like to see that same awareness for male entertainment where women are also defamed.

            I don’t think that’s unreasonable.

            You want to have a resonable discussion even if we disagree? Perfect. But you hit a new low when you make purposely untrue and slanderous comments about my thoughts, feelings and character in a cheap attempt to take the conversation from the issue at hand. Which up to this point, is mostly what you’ve done.

        • Veenees, this is getting old. I already told you once before I could have better articulated that one point. “Dancing” around a topic isn’t my ability to be open about how I could have better articulated something. If I said “Feminism didn’t happen until 1970..” then you can take issue. But that’s not what I said.

          And this isn’t really about that. This is about you cleaving onto one little facet in an attempt to prove nothing. It certainly doesn’t add anything to the conversation. And it certainly doesn’t negate the other points I made. Infact, you pretty much admit it yourself. If this is all you want to cleave onto to avoid an adult discussion, that’s your choice.

          By the way, what’s with all this “schooling” nonsense of yours? Can two adults have a discussion where they don’t agree with the other without feeling they are being “schooled” by the other. I sure don’t feel “schooled” by you. You apparently felt schooled by me though to even bring that nonsense into the conversation. But I enjoyed how you tried to condescend to me with that whole “raise your hand” bit. That gave me a good chuckle. It says a lot more about you then it does me.

          Previously you said that a movie would never be made that showcased women like the SATC franchise showcased men. That’s nonsense. That movie is made all the time and it appeals to men. You have yet to refute one point I made.
          I also stand by my comment that you googled the information. There are several reasons that lead me to that conclusion. And you’re only proving them.

          You’re other suggested goggle phrases aren’t particularly impressive or that informative. I’m sure we will get the chance to happily debate them on other articles.

          • Hey Erin, I’m not sure what intellectual point you’ve brought up, exactly! All I’ve read is blah-blah-blah-blah I’ve got issues with porn and then you’re turning things around to try to make me look bad. I haven’t tried to cheapen the discussion, just tried to help you to see where you make a lot of mistakes. I notice that people who like to think of themselves as intelligent often don’t see the forest for the trees when it comes to how they are perceived. If you don’t want to listen to it and try to grow from it, that’s your prerogative. I’m only speaking the truth and the truth hurts, as my grandmother likes to say! Like I mentioned before, I’m trying to help you to grow and it’s pretty clear to me based on the other comments on this thread that you’re really not respected and that people don’t think highly of your intelligence. I mean, a couple of the other people totally dissed you and no ones has bothered to really respond to you – I’m just trying to give you some perspective on why that may be. As it stands, it seems as if I’m the only one who’s been checking in to try to respond to you in a meaningful manner. You would think someone like you would be grateful for that attention, but I guess not. No good deed goes unpunished, as the saying goes…ah well. I’ll see you around, I suppose!

        • Hey Erin, I’m not sure what intellectual points you’ve brought up, exactly! All I’ve read is blah-blah-blah-blah I’ve got personal issues with porn and then you’re turning things around to try to make me look bad. I haven’t tried to cheapen the discussion, just tried to help you to see where you make a lot of mistakes. I notice that people who like to think of themselves as intelligent often don’t see the forest for the trees when it comes to how they are perceived. If you don’t want to listen to it and try to learn from it, that’s your prerogative. I’m only speaking the truth and the truth hurts, as my grandmother likes to say! Like I mentioned before, I’m trying to help you to grow and it’s pretty clear to me based on the other comments on this thread that you’re not really respected and that people don’t think highly of you or your intelligence. I’m trying to point that out to you and I’m not sure why you view it as an attack. If someone told me that I came off as an moron, I would actually appreciate it and then thank them for their kindness. I think another poster above told you that you came off as ignorant, in so many words. I mean, look at how everybody else’s comments get thumbed up and yours get thumbed down – doesn’t that tell you something? Also, a few other people totally dissed you and no ones has bothered to really respond to you or defend you at all – I’m just trying to give you some perspective on why that may be. As it stands, it seems as if I’m the only one who’s been checking in to try to respond to you in a meaningful manner. You would think someone like you would be grateful for that attention, but I guess not. No good deed goes unpunished, as the saying goes, so oh well. I guess I’ll just see you around!

    • I have been reading all of the posts in this forum and the other one on how nice guys should not use PUA stuff. What veenness said about : “Why focus on an online group of PUA, themselves a miniscule portion of the male population? What proven effect does that online community (or any, for that matter) have on your ability as a woman to secure a well-paying job, vote for in your next local election, or develop a relationship with a man who values you as an individual?The answer is none. The only inequality that exists for women is that in their minds. So long women continue to hold dear to the notion that they’re victims, they’re the only ones guilty of robbing themselves of concerted achievement towards individual success”
      is one of the BEST responses I have read so far.
      My two cents: The feminists (Amanda Marcotte, et al) are all afraid and scared of PUA, MRA and MRM. They know their battle was fought hard and it’s over. What the feminists doing now is nitpicking and looking for a new target and they found one. What makes the feminists look so foolish right now is that a bunch of men, some of whom never finished college, have started to call the woman out on their games and said “gotcha ya” and now the feminists are saying no fair. These same feminists are now complaining where have all of the good men have gone? After stripping them of all their legal rights, jobs, and money, where do they go?…to jail…to other countries where men are still valued, or worse, suicide. Picking on the PUA community only makes the feminists look like they are being petty without offering solid and tangible advice. The feminists are scared of PUA because it takes the power back from them and it is something that, for once, they cannot understand themselves.

      To Erin about porn: Porn helps no one. Putting religious reasons aside, it only screws up men’s bodies (leading to ED) and minds (thinking all woman should have huge chests, small butts and always look like 20 years old.) Google pink cross foundation or shelly lubben.

      I just wish I knew about Doc Love and other books when I was in my late teens and early 20’s.

  18. Richard Aubrey says:

    If PUA works, it’s either because it tells socially unsuccessful men how to get out of their own way and sometimes it works.
    Or because women, a sufficient number of them, can be manipulated by scripted lines and physical moves. I don’t think most folks would want to insist that a substantial fraction of women can in fact be manipulated.
    So that leaves socially unsuccessful men making lame pickup attempts to no avail.
    An annoyance, probably, but not a major problem. We already have socially unsuccessful men making lame pickup attempts. It’s not a new phenomenon.
    The PUA gurus want men to think of approaching women as risk-free, or at least low-risk. After all, what have you got to lose? Shame. Humiliation. Flop sweat. Self-image. Feeling like he’s going to puke. No biggie.
    Guys in that position are going to want to do something. Presumably, there’s better advice available. Somebody should start marketing it. Make a lot of money.
    I have been exclusive since 1968. Fading memory reminds me that I figured, a couple of decades after the fact, that certain incidents involving women I knew but was not dating (that being the point) were, in fact, likely them trying to tell me to take some initiative. Missed it. Presuming I have interpreted the situation(s) correctly, I have no idea why they would, using as templates various schemes of attracting women. Since I wasn’t trying.
    Best i can figure is that i was leading a life of some activity and interest and not looking needy. When you think about it, presuming I’m correct, that’s pretty simple.
    Too simple to sell, I guess.

  19. Mom of 4 says:

    Seriously…a lot of whining going on here. We are all a “fish out of water” at some point in our lives. If your goal is to deceive, then you will get what you deserve. It doesn’t matter if you are male or female. There are assholes and creepers on both sides of that coin. If all you want is to “get your dick wet”, set your standards low enough and you will. But it seems like most want more than that. Just be yourself. Let go of what you think you “should” be and do what you love. Be passionate about it. One of my dear friends is what I would call a little nutty about animals. Not my thing, but it’s totally hers. She met her boyfriend while volunteering at the SPCA. She didn’t go to the SPCA looking for a boyfriend. She went to do something she cares deeply about. My niece met her husband while working on a political campaign. Again, she wasn’t working there to meet men. But, that’s how it happened. Stop obsessing and get on with your life. I believe that some of us will meet our life’s partner very young (yea, it happened to my sister; met at 15, married at 22, still married 25 years and 3 kids later.) Others not until much later. Our dear friends met in their 30s and on a plane traveling for work. She’s a chemical engineer and he’s in sales. They’ve been married for years. The thing is to not spend your time sitting at home masturbating to porn or figuring out how to get laid. OR, on the other side of that coin, spend your time figuring out how to trap a rich husband/boyfriend. If your goal with the whole pua thing is to just be more comfortable socially, then go for it. Like I said, we’ve all had our socially awkward stages in life.

  20. Dave, the issue I take is not that you want to get laid. Most people want to get laid. But saying “get my dick wet” means you don’t seem to care about the woman, just her vagina. Possibly some sense of validation of masculinity you’re looking for from female acceptance…

    Solely sexual encounters that are not about relationships are fine and can be totally healthy and mutually enjoyable, but how healthy can it be if there’s a significant degree of dehumanization involved?

    I’m not saying the answer is necessarily to be the nice-guy friend to a woman you want to sleep with either, but being honest and seeing her as a person with sexual needs too that you can mutual fulfill might get you further. Thinking only about *your* dick does not make a woman feel sexy.

  21. wiseman says:

    The person writing this is writing from a spiteful condensending poin of view. Of course like any subject online there are a few people claiming to have the answer when they dont-however there are a lot of far more educated people than yourself who have attended institutions you more than likely have not attended(ivey league :mit, harvard) who have conclusively demonstarted the effectiveness of their methods and the soundeness of their theories unless you are 5’10 plus, extremely fit, almost unanimously sought be honest with yourself. I even taught the Mystery Method (a book written by an MIT student who like a lot of people in our community has dated women you would DIE to look like) to an international student at my school and he himself picked up multiple attractive women.

    • Hi Clarisse. I’d like to share my views on the topics discussed on your article.
      Women are different but many of them think similarly for they were socialized in the same society. Pick up artist sexist advices work partly for this reason. They promote the chauvinism of the dominant male, which is often accepted by both males and females oftentimes For instance, many women want the man to lead them.
      I’d like that you pointed out the false assumptions on female nature; women are not weak, they are nurtured to be so.
      Pick up artist advice work because they teach the individuals to approach women with confidence and other “male” attractive traits. They also teach them to, after having attracted the woman, how to take advantage of her feelings of insecurity and fear of rejection to manipulate them into having sex.
      Thank you for providing other alternatives. They are not 100% misogyny free, but better than the rest. What I would advice other guys is reading the non-sexist advice from the resources you provided. That way you can learn the non-manipulative skills to attract women and approach them as so, rather than vaginas.

  22. Thanks for the link to the full terminology page and hello to the Good Men Foundation!

    The pick up arts or seduction arts changed my life. As someone who grew up pretty well in other areas of my life, I was a 23 year old virgin before I really decided to do something about it.

    I think it would be too shallow to just say, “PUA is misogynistic” or “unethical”. Its an artform. A tool. Understanding human psychology and field testing methods that work. Used for good or bad is up to the artist himself (or herself). The industry is commercialized due to the amount of money guys are willing to play to get this area “handled”. As with all things, eventually the real coaches develop a true business based on talent and others come and go.

  23. After reading the Game, Rules of the Game, the Encyclopedia of Body Language and Mystery Method and practicing some of what I learned I can’t believe some of the articles on this site were written by anyone who read ANY of these books and gave it a try.

    From what I gleaned, learning PU is about re-programming the male brain (through self help exercises, repeated exposure drills, etc..) to bring out the BEST in YOURSELF while interacting with women. It’s basically self help first, social skills second, and success with women a distant third – although it’s not marketed that way obviously.

    Lies, canned material, insulting women while being ‘blown out’ , negging ugly girls, being a jerk (vs being strong) and manipulation are all looked down on. PUAs don’t need to stereotype; there’s a science to attraction (Buss et al.) and the PU methods seek to exploit the science that’s all.

  24. I have posted this exact same comment at multiple places, hoping some women actually take the challenge. So here it goes again.

    All you girls giving advice, be it the author of this article, women in the comments section, or anywhere else on the internet, there is a very specific term for you in the PU community – it’s called Keyboard Jockey. In simpler words, people who just talk/post on the internet but never take any action.

    If you are so confident that your advice works, take on the following challenge. Find a guy in your area/city in his 20s who has very little to zero experience with women (You will be surprised how many of them are out there, who are very normal looking). Take him from that and guide him to becoming a man who feels confident and empowered around women, and is able to find a reasonable girl who he loves, and who loves him back.

    Accomplish this task in a reasonable amount of time and without him having to spend an unreasonable amount of money.

    If all you girls put together (all over the internet) can achieve this transformation with 10 guys, write about it. Do not cheat and start giving PUA advice to these guys to use ‘negs’/’opinion openers’/’approach x women a day’ or whatever else you find on PUA websites/blogs. Use your own brand of ‘Be yourself’,’Just say hi’,’connect with her’,’don’t dehumanize’,’talk about things which you care about’,’care about what she thinks’,’don’t approach randomly’,’no emotional manipulation’ etc. and see what you can accomplish.

    If you are able to achieve this, let me know and I promise to advertise it enough that guys will listen almost exclusively to this brand of advice and not the PUA stuff. But till then, please shut the f*** up

    • Oh yes. YES YES YES!!!

      Women, do this. Do this HARD. Do it like a rock star.

      Go out, find a socially insecure man who’s unlucky in love, and try to teach him how to be successful without using PUA material, or copying it. I DARE YOU.

  25. When it comes to good social advice, here’s another one that’s especially targetted at geeks that I happen to consider solid gold.

    Well, Actually – Miguel De Icaza ( http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2011/Feb-17.html )

    It’s not really PUA advice, or even strictly dating advice – but it’s a very good example of explaining a concept that some people (including me, before I read it) don’t get.

    Also, while “Be Yourself” is good general advice, it’s often an over-simplification. People are complex, and can have many different sides or aspects to their identity that they might present. It also often ignores that bothering to care about others perspectives in how you interact with them isn’t a bad thing at all – and that it’s quite possible to be true to yourself and yet adjust your behaviour for the sake of others.

  26. Thanks for sharing excellent informations. Your web-site is very cool. I’m impressed by the details that you have on this blog. It reveals how nicely you perceive this subject. Bookmarked this website page, will come back for more articles. You, my friend, ROCK! I found just the info I already searched everywhere and just couldn’t come across. What a great web-site.

  27. Yes. Women really are different. Not all of us want sex at any given time, and no, that’s not up for debate, we can’t always be persuaded to give it up if you try hard enough. So stop trying to do that and instead work on meeting women who actually want sex.

    I realise the PUA community is as diverse as any. Within their ranks are men who just want sex but are pretty respecting of women’s rights to say no and walk away, individuals whose actions and philosophies I have absolutely no problem with as a feminist. There’s nothing wrong with wanting casual sex, guys. Hey, many women also want casual sex! In this way, feminists are not your enemy – we want everyone to enjoy the freedom to consensual fun. We’re also not against men improving their confidence or becoming more socially aware. Really, that’s a good ideal. As is learning how to approach others without coming off as creepy. A decent PUA can actually succeed at charming women and getting them to willingly sleep with them and not creeping anyone out in the process. But so, so many of them are just creepy. Because they get conflicting messages from various ‘teachers’ out there, many of which are misogynistic or simply dangerous and unethical (not taking a woman who wants to go home to her house is rapey. Bugging a girl into sleeping with you is rapey. Be the guy who people WANT to sleep with, not the creepy dude who has to emotionally blackmail women to sleep with them!

    The problem I have is that some PUA advocates espouse a philosophy of trying to coerce women to sleep with you. And the thing is, men, it really shows if you feel bitter or entitled about sex. And a lot of these ‘nice guys’ are. There’s this underlying expectation that a woman they’ve talked to SHOULD be providing sex, and that they’ve been let down if it didn’t materialise. We women can read those vibes, and they are off-putting as hell. Don’t whine if she won’t sleep with you, don’t send passive-aggressive texts. If she’s playing mind-games, find someone who isn’t silly, don’t act even worse. Whether it’s by insulting someone to lower their self-esteem, or lying about taking them home (and then taking them to yours), or any other way of getting rid of ‘last minute resistance’ (despicable term), I can’t condone anyone who encourages or advises coersion and rape. You don’t have to want anything than sex from a woman, but for crying out loud, find one who REALLY wants to sleep with you. There’s no such thing as ‘buyer’s remorse’ if you were upfront about what you wanted and don’t push women into sleeping with you. That’s a sign you’re not doing it right, and might in fact be very, very wrong. Criminally wrong.

    For a reasonable portion of PUAs who are still very bitter about rejection, they just don’t appreciate women’s rights to choose not to sleep with them. As many mature PUAs say ‘If a chick doesn’t call back, or isn’t interested, don’t waste your time and hers, it’s a number game, there are other girls out there’. And I think this is good advice. Rejection is NOT about you. Work at your insecurities so you don’t come across as needy or entitled, and try again. As a woman I am sick of men who keep trying when you’ve been polite enough to tell them it’s just not on the cards. It’s bad practice when PUAs teach that all women are the same, that if you try hard enough, ALL women will sleep with you (and if their gurus aren’t teaching them this, then it doesn’t matter, because I’ve seen too many noob PUAs who feel this way). No matter what you are like and how amazing you are, you will never appeal to everyone. It’s really not personal. And yet too often I see these techniques used to try to zero in on a specific woman (just making her uncomfortable and pissing her off) when what the guy should be doing is just trying elsewhere.

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