What are men’s rights activists so fired up about? Here are the results of our MRA goal poll.
The editors at the Good Men Project Magazine asked if I could write a piece on the top 10 issues for men’s rights activists 
(MRAs). As I am only one man, I felt I could not speak for the rest of the community on how we prioritize issues. So I came up with 17 things we consider problems men face and set up a poll. (I would like to thank everyone who voted, especially from Men’s Rights Reddit.)
It is important to note that the poll is far from perfect. It has a small sample size, and the ability to pick a single issue did not go over well with many MRAs—in their mind, the goals of the movement aren’t so easily prioritized—they’re all important and interconnected. That said, while this poll isn’t perfect, it does, to some degree, reflect the distribution of priorities among those MRAs who participated.
More notes on methodology here.
Image DieselDemon/Flickr
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About Zeta Male
There is only ONE thing needed in the area of ‘Mens Rights’. That is for men to educate themselves as to how to claim their rights, exercise them, and defend them. 99.9% + of men do not know how to do these things. So I wrote it down. Men have EVERYTHING they need to claim their rights, exercise them, and defend them. Nothing more is needed today.
Men would do well to stop talking and start reading.
http://www.peternolan.com/Forums/tabid/420/forumid/58/scope/threads/Default.aspx
The top issues neatly summed up in his video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5OdQGbVNa4
Gentlemen,
I have made my position clear. If ALL fathers adopted my position then all this shit would be over in a month. But you won’t because you are ‘gutless wonders’.
My position is this. If a lying bitch f***s you over in the Family Court? Walk away. Pay nothing. Kill any man who tries to enslave you because slavery is a very, very servere crime. She claims they are HER children? Then let her have them. But do not pay ONE CENT.
I have proven how to refuse to pay ‘alimony’ or ‘child support’ lawfully and legally in any UCC court which is ALL western courts. I am alleged to ‘owe’ some EUR150K. I have not heard from this judge since I sent him a BILL for his request for my services. A ‘court order’ is exactly the same as an order for a burger at McDonalds. Before you fulfill the order you have a right to be paid.
http://www.peternolan.com/LinkClick.aspx?link=PN_Notice_to_Judge_Griffin.pdf&tabid=538&mid=1230
Shame men are so committed to their ignorance they won’t even learn how to refuse to pay alimony or child support.
Sure. The criminals in the FC in Australia then took 95% of my house off me. But that is a CLEAR CRIME for which they will pay.
Gentlemen. You do nothing? You DONT grow a pair of balls and do what I did? You deserve your slavery.
Peter-Andrew, a man who walks away from his children is not a man.
TByte, you are living in 16th century. Children are of absolutely no use for men even in a country like India, so you should wonder why men are still obsessed with children. It should be a man’s choice, if he wants to have contact or not. Men must stop being protectors of children, women, society, culture and religion. Why should women have all the fun?
It’s not about the children “being of use” to the father, it’s about taking responsibility for your actions. When you are part of bringing a life into the world then you should also be a part of raising that being.
I normally consider myself a feminist, but don’t really associate myself with a movement. I was born to a committed heterosexual couple who shared household chores, expenses and breadwinning equally and with great joy and aplomb, and who raised their two daughters (myself and my sister) to be intelligent, independent and loving. My parents’ relationship informed my views on male and female roles in love, in life and in work. My father worked at a menial and backbreaking job to put my mother through college and into a career in the banking industry. My mother supported my father in quitting that job and taking training and a low-paying but oft-promoted job in his dream industry. They worked different shifts so that they needn’t pay childcare; so that they saved that money for better use and each got face-time with we children, at least until we were both in school. We weren’t raised to think of being an executive as masculine, or fixing dinner or doing dishes as feminine. Our mother is strong and opinionated and tender and loving. Our father is strong and opinionated and tender and loving. The qualities which make our mother feminine and our father masculine aren’t defined by their deeds, but by more inherent biological aspects which DO exist, yet do not minimize one compared with the other. They are different, but equal in the capacity for all the qualities which make one a good, strong and loving person.
This it the background I come from. So when I say I think of myself as a feminist, it is as a woman who grew up in that post-70′s movement, without the benefit or hindrance of a look at previous decades. It is as a woman who truly believes, and has no earthly reason to believe otherwise, that women and men deserve equal reverence, punishment, pity and support.
While I think that many of the points in this article are just to an extent, I don’t necessarily believe they are all based on entirely right thinking. When I read that I, as a woman, have all the power these days, I must wonder where the heck it is. I don’t feel powerless, certainly, but I have personally experienced plenty of sexism to feel that women certainly don’t have all the power. However, I acknowledge that in many particulars, the feminist movement where it falls into anti-male is decidedly unpleasant and unfair and not something I have any interest in supporting. I don’t feel like men owe me any consideration for past wrongs, only equal consideration for present rights.
On the subject of reproductive rights, and extending that into fathers rights, I have to say that I agree to an extent. The “Just don’t have sex” argument seems specious to me. I truly believe that if I were to find myself in the position of having an unplanned pregnancy with a man who didn’t want a child, and I opted neither to abort nor adopt, I’d be perfectly willing to absolve him of fatherhood providing that included absolving him of any rights to the child at all. If you give up your responsibility for a child, you give up any legal recourse to that child at all points in the future until or unless the child comes to you at such a point when it is old enough and asks you to say yay or nay to an adult relationship. That should go for men and women. I agree that as long as I, as a woman, have the right to ignore any input a man has in the disposition of my womb and its’ fruits (and I strongly believe that should legally be the case, although I am opposed to it morally) then I have no further right to expectations from him. Yes, he impregnated me, but surely he is not to blame for that. If he isn’t allowed to voice his opinion to me, then I’m not allowed to blame him for my condition.
Very insightful. From a legal perspective, once the male has transferred property to the female, by which I obviously mean sperm, if he is no longer afforded some form of joint ownership over that property and the say on what happens to it, then it is no longer his, and ownership cannot be transferred back in the absence of his consent. Conversely, if we maintain that it is still his property held by the women, then as the joint owner the male would still have a say in the disposition of that property. I hate to talk about child birth in such a callous form, but it certainly waters down what’s being discussed here.
I agree with this. I think men should have the option to walk away from a child in the first couple of months of a pregnancy (equal to the length of time a woman is allowed and abortion). In extreme cases where a woman doesn’t know she is pregnant until much later or the woman doesn’t tell the man or the woman thinks it is someone elses, there should be another set time for the guy to opt out. The woman has the option of adoption. But I do not think it is right for a guy to walk away after he has previously been committed to having and raising a child and has said that to the woman. How can that be protected? Maybe women should set up a contract of sorts that they both sign that says they are knowingly trying to have a child if the two are not married. It sounds formal, but I don’t think it is fair for men but I also don’t think a man has a right to force a women into birth or abortion. It seems like the only fair option.
And yes, I’ve seen many fathers lose primary custody to a mother that is downright neglectful or abusive. It sickens me. Child support payments do seem to be a little over the top. Yes, children cost a whole lot. But in some cases I don’t think it is fair either. Especially when the women (at least where I am) can get numerous breaks for medical care, food, housing, you name it.
The instant of conception the zygote travels down the fallopian tube for about 5 days and connects itself to the uterine wall. It is separate; it always was and still is. It is connected to a womans body much like an IV bag is connected to a person during an operation. No one would ever say that bag of solution is, “part” of their body, it is simply connected to them, and it is separate.
There is no one alive was not a zygote, fetus, ect. If a fetus was, “part” of a womans body it would always remain, “part’ of a womans body. Your arm is part of your body, it always was, and barring an unforeseen accident it always will be, a fetus was always separate. A mans seed fertilized the egg; it is; “part” of his body as well, yet it is separate. When a child is born it is equal, “parts” of a man and woman, yet it is separate because it always was.
When a woman contemplates an abortion one day and changes her mind the next, does the status of that fetus change from dead to living by conscious choice? Did it change from being an, “unwanted” dead, disposable fetus to, “my baby” by conscious design? The most abhorrent manifestation of modern society is the denial of rights to the completely helpless and totally innocent unborn child. The right to simply live.
I understand the contemporary issue of men’s rights and find 90% agreement with the concerns we’re talking about here. But with regards to chivarly….Can we really deny our biological evolution as being the main contributor towards the basic concept of chivalry, the male courtship of women, etc? The same behavior is shared with our mammalian cousins. Now one might make the claim that we can move past this as higher order organisms, although I personally feel this would be more indicative of a degradation in our society’s goals then it’s success, but chivalry can’t really be construed as some human engineered plot by misogynists or misandrists alike. And if we get to that point, while certain portions of the feminism movement has made it their goal to demonize women who chose to stay at home and run a household, I hope the MRM, masculism, etc. do not get to a point where we attack males who see chivalry as way of living life they feel comfortable with.
Personally I’m not letting go of chivalry as I do think it is part of being a man. However, that being said, I do think every man has the right to be selective in applying chivalry. Every femaile is a woman but not every woman is a lady. I apply chivalry to ladies, not every female.
That’s cool if you want to hold yourself to it. My problem is when people try to hold others to it. It would be one thing if someone liked the fact that you still hold yourself to chivalrous standards its quite another for someone to say that a man who does not is somehow not a real man or that since he doesn’t treat women a certain because they are women (which has somehow been twisted to the point that we are supposed to believe that women don’t get any benefit from this treatment) he must hate them.
I love this magazine, and where it’s going. The articles are well written and passionate, with a voice that can be firm, soft and humorous all at once. The world could use more of this.
But the commentary? I’m so disappointed in some of the readers that I’ve almost given up frequenting the magazine. The moment I read something strong and empowering, I look down to the comments to find someone spitting petty insults or passive-aggressive hate. I wish the readership were as commendable as the writers, I suppose.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, or a thousand, but I find myself wishing that more opinions were a little easier to swallow. Are the readers the “good men” we refer to? Or are they simply on their way to becoming such? I see, reflected in the comments section, a mix of “good men” and another sort altogether. This latter group speaks louder, I’m afraid.
The issues discussed in this article are not, nor have they ever been, black and white. Reproductive rights (for example) are in limbo for men and women alike all over the world. Is it right to complain that women’s decisions trump those of their partners when victims of rape are being denied the right to abort? And even in healthy, loving relationships… women have to weigh the risks to themselves (work, education, fair pay, pain, immobility, prejudice, expense) when they consider having a baby. It isn’t always about being a mother or not. Should men have a say? Of course. But reproductive rights are being challenged and defined for both sexes currently, and both should be working together every step of the way.
I could go on, but I think it’s best I don’t. Suffice it to say: Please be good men. Influence each other, as well as those who read and observe, to be good. This can’t be done without spending time challenging what you believe, or walking in someone else’s shoes. This can’t be done by bullying, venting or being stubborn. You have to be ever-prepared to learn, listen and adjust.
We can’t step on each other and improve the state of the world. We have to walk alongside each other and open our minds to change.
Very fine sentiments worthy of a Utopian World. Perhaps you might express the same sentiments on the sites of those whose inspired these reactions in the first place. Though I have sympathy in general with the main point you are making.
Re:- ” Is it right to complain that women’s decisions trump those of their partners when victims of rape are being denied the right to abort?”
Illicits the obvious response
“Is it right to complain that victims of rape are being denied the right to abort when millions of people of dying of hungry after a life of untold misery?”
A greater “outrage” does not deny the sufferer of a “lesser outrage” the right of complaint.
Concerning your comments making the decision to be a mother and father. Risks do exist for the mother but you seem to ignore those of the father. The very idea of marriage has been to equalize these risks. The fact that a man among other things is forced to work and give almost all of his resources in support of the mother and child is of little consequence to you? And they almost always do. The risks he faces at the behest of family law speak for themselves. The risks of fatherhood are not inconsequential.
“Re:- ” Is it right to complain that women’s decisions trump those of their partners when victims of rape are being denied the right to abort?”
Illicits the obvious response
“Is it right to complain that victims of rape are being denied the right to abort when millions of people of dying of hungry after a life of untold misery?”
No, not really.
COMPLETELY unrelated. Straw[person] argument.
When women have the unobstructed rights and access to ALL birth control, including abortion, and universally, perhaps men will then have a LITTLE more leeway.
But if you as a guy REALLY have a strong averse reaction to EITHER abortion OR being a parent, then (a) get a vasectomy; (b) don’t have sex; (c) get any woman you have sex with to sign a document agreeing that you will either have equal rights OR not be responsible.
WOMEN end up with all the responsibility of carrying the child, risking their lives, etc. If you can’t plan ahead a little bit, then … get a blow up doll.
+1
That is all
Re: father’s rights…let me get this straight, men want to be with their kids more but not have to pay for their support?!
How grown up. Actually, how pathetically selfish.
fatherhood IS support….moron.
I am going to explain this clearly and simply, so you can understand.
Father’s rights are simple common sense requests that fathers have all of the same priveleges with regards to children as mothers do. Equality, as it were.
They also wish to have the right to choose whether or not a child should be born, just like the mothers do. Of course, if the mother wants the child but the father does not, it would be unethical to force her to have an abortion, so they simply wish to have the right to ‘opt out’ of being forced to pay for a child they did not choose to sire, just like a woman can choose to opt out of mothering a child by having an abortion.
They wish to have the right to raise their children instead of the standard family court practice of automatically awarding custody to the mother, a blatantly sexist practice.
At no time have father’s rights activists ever wished to ‘be with their kids but not support them’.
Ryan perhaps should not have been so quick with the personal insult, because it’s possible that your misunderstanding was due to ignorance and ‘skimming’ the article instead of actually researching the question. I suggest doing a google search of ‘fathers rights’ to gain better understanding.
If fathers are able and willing to grow up, take responsibility, and actually be fathers, then yes, they deserve equal rights and privileges for a child they have produced. Otherwise, they don’t.
Your post has an anti-male odour. You seem to require little of mothers.
ZimbaZumba, most of the time mothers don’t have the luxury to invest “little” into their kids. From day 0, mothers have the burden of responsibility placed on them biologically and hence tend to be far more involved with their children – at least at first. I’m not anti-male – I’m anti-lack of responsibility – whether it comes from the mother or father.
I never said that mothers who don’t grow up and take responsibility for the child they’ve produced deserve the child any more than fathers who do this. Quite the contrary. However parenting generally requires much more than simply contributing to a zygote.
… in fact I’ve always believed that people should be required to get permits or licenses to have children, just as they need one to drive, or any number of other things that seemingly represent taking on more adult responsibilities.
The government should not have the power to decide who is “allowed” to have children. In the USA we threw off the shackles of such despotic rulers 200+ years ago and I for one will not support any movement to give such powers back to government. My ancestors left countries who controlled marriage, job opportunities and the ability to move for a reason – for freedom.
That’s blatantly false – there are plenty of dead beat mothers in the world but the media pays little attention to the problem. I’m glad that one of the issues mentioned was how the media portrays men because this is a perfect example of it.
I find all this a little one sided. From my perspective most of what I have seen in 54 years is women not taking responsibilty. My wifes mom left both her daughters and gave them up. Each one was adopted out from a childrens home to seperate families. My step brothers mom just one day left my Dad and never came back and never contacting and supporting her son in anyway. My Dad raised him with no support. My wifes brothers first wife left and gave up never supporting her son and he raised him the whole way.I could go on and on. Just a few days ago one of women neighbors children complained about pipes and needles at school. The mom was busted for possession,manufacturing and distribution and lost her kids in the process. Now the Dads will be raising them with no support from the jailed Mom….just on and on………..
If that’s the case then why do people go through so much trouble to actively ignore the fathers that are trying to take responsibility for the same of highlighting the ones that aren’t?
Well dont steroetype all men. I was one of those resposible grownups that raised my daughter because of a irresponsible dead beat ex wife. So you need to go back and start over.
“At no time have father’s rights activists ever wished to ‘be with their kids but not support them’.”
Patently false– as can be seen RIGHT HERE ON THIS BLOG, in the comments, second comment, as a matter of fact:
Peter-Andrew:Nolan(c) says:
“My position is this. If a lying bitch f***s you over in the Family Court? Walk away. Pay nothing. Kill any man who tries to enslave you because slavery is a very, very servere crime. She claims they are HER children? Then let her have them. But do not pay ONE CENT.
“I have proven how to refuse to pay ‘alimony’ or ‘child support’ lawfully and legally in any UCC court which is ALL western courts. I am alleged to ‘owe’ some EUR150K. I have not heard from this judge since I sent him a BILL for his request for my services. A ‘court order’ is exactly the same as an order for a burger at McDonalds. Before you fulfill the order you have a right to be paid.”
He goes on to say:
“Shame men are so committed to their ignorance they won’t even learn how to refuse to pay alimony or child support.
“Sure. The criminals in the FC in Australia then took 95% of my house off me. But that is a CLEAR CRIME for which they will pay.
“Gentlemen. You do nothing? You DONT grow a pair of balls and do what I did? You deserve your slavery.”
Talk about “misandry”– look to your OWN.
Those are two completly seperate issues as far as the courts are concerned and should be as far as society is concerned. A women should deny a father visitation of his own children because of money.
Oh, poor, poor men. After centuries of dominating women, they’re suffering from ptsd at the suggestion their reign may be over. In a couple thousand years, and maybe you’ll have a case.
On the face of it, I’ve also always thought this whole men’s Rights business is primarily about resentment, like complaints about affirmative action.
OTOH, dysfunctional men tend to leave a lot of bodies in their wake.
The problem is Men’s “Rights” creates rhetorical frame because it sounds like “Women’s Rights” or “Gay Rights,” which might imply “oppression” to some people hearing the phrase.
Maybe the movement should rename itself to something like “Society for Ideal Men” or something cordial like that.
I agree with your statement. I like the last option. We also have to face to the fact that oppressors are oppressed themselves. If we oppress others we also oppress ourselves. I think that #2 is a little off base. I think that sensationalists and media representations have misinformed many people about the needs that mainstream liberal feminism addresses. The article does not elaborate that there are many different kinds of feminists, who believe many different things. The theorists that the article purports as “man-hating” could be radical feminists, who shouldn’t be labeled as bad, evil, or negative- just different. Some people believe that sex segregation is the answer to our gender woes- but that is also that utopian ideal to those groups of feminists. It is the same as men who think that all women would do much better to have just stayed in the home and to forget feminism. I think that many of the rights the piece speaks to are important, and must implemented if the goal is still equality.
Another incredibly eloquent argument for feminist ‘equality’. It’s nice to see that at least a few feminists are honest enough to admit that they have no interest in equality and merely want all the power for none of the work.
but…if it makes you feel better, your ‘reign’ won’t last a thousand years. as more men learn the truth, they may simply decide to take it away from you… It must be disturbing to realize that female power only exists because males choose to grant it to them, and that it can be taken away the moment enough males have ‘had enough’.
Ew.
A comment like this on a site called “The Good Men Project” is just…rather revolting. I really hope the men that think this way don’t consider themselves “good men” worth supporting.
It’s sad to read comments like this because there are so many excellent men out there who deserve support and attention, but bitter, angry, misogynist, mean souls like Brian eclipse them in spades.
I think, though, that the good people will win out and the bitter, angry, mean ones will slowly die off. It’s an evolution, by nature slow, but inevitable.
Perfect example of women not wanting equality, but power and revenge. Why should we help men and be fair, let them suffer for a couple thousand years, right? And by the way, I’m a woman, before you decide to start with the “man-hate”, your comment is reeking with it.
At least 1 woman has the guts to state what they feel (I won;t credit her with thinking). because men long dead dominated women long dead we the living should should be mistreated by women who were never mistreated. This is the core spirit of the modern liberated woman and their idea of justice? Oh the irony that they are every bit as evil as the evil men they castigate.
If we needed a reason to be aware that there are plenty of women not interested in justice then here it is.
I agreed with most of what was being said…until I reached #2, where, inevitably, the blame was placed on feminism. Seriously, that is a huge problem with MRAs; instead of saying there’s a problem and trying to fix it, they remain inactive and blame feminism for not allowing them to be heard.
This is why I’m turned away from the MRM; they state reasonable issues that need solving, and then they all of a sudden start ranting about feminism being the cause. Feminism isn’t anti-male for trying to even out the rights in society that girls and women lacked back then. You could argue that boys/men have fallen behind in some ways, but as soon as you blame feminism/females for your problems, you lose credibility.
Arielle, there is a difference between blaming feminism and pointing out the flaws of the ideology and how it has harmed men. A number of the problems men face stem directly from feminist ideas, policies, and efforts. The situation in schools is a good example of that. As a result of the shift to focusing on girls’ needs and interests, boys’ needs and interests get ignored. Methods of learning that work best for boys get touted as old fashioned or sexist. Activities that boys enjoy — like recess and competition — get touted as useless or aggressive.
It does not mater whether feminists’ intent was to harm men. What matters is what occurs as a result of those efforts. If the result is that fewer boys graduate from school, it is a problem. If the result is that male victims of domestic violence get arrested, it is problem. If the result is that men are frightened away from working with children, it is a problem. No matter how politically incorrect it is to comment on this, the problems still exist. It is only by confronting the misandry within the feminist movement that we can prevent more problems from occurring.
The education arguments as to why boys are failing are totally flawed. What school has less recess or competition than in the past? In the old days, classrooms were physically very restrictive and virtually all teachers were women. Now kids get to learn on the floor and there are lots of physical activities, as well as many more male teachers, than in the past.
Competition hasn’t lessened. If anything, it’s increased. It’s just that boys have to compete against, and potentially lose out, to girls.
The problems boys are having are real, but they aren’t related to feminism. They have to do with video games, online porn, a culture of anti-intellectualism and emphasis on macho attributes over academic ones, as well as lazy parents who would rather medicate their kids than read to them. If you actually want to solve the problem, you need to diagnose it accurately rather than look for convenient scapegoats.
Well said JD!
This is a site for men to discuss their issues JD and Indrani. Not for feminists to air their views. As is oft quoted “it is not about you”
As a contributor, I do believe this is a site for everyone.
The problems boys are having are real, but they aren’t related to feminism. They have to do with video games, online porn, a culture of anti-intellectualism and emphasis on macho attributes over academic ones, as well as lazy parents who would rather medicate their kids than read to them. If you actually want to solve the problem, you need to diagnose it accurately rather than look for convenient scapegoats.
Then cool let’s diagnose. Feminism didn’t create a lot of those problem but it isn’t helping as much as its members like to pat themselves on the back for.
WHY should feminism focus on helping men?
When has the patriarchy ever gone out of its way to help women? We had to learn it on our own. No one helped the First or Second Wave Feminists do what they did.
We DO offer tons of support– feminism is about challenging gender roles, female or male (or other gender). Goddess knows, we WANT men to be able to stay home with the kids if that’s how it works out; to succeed in “female dominated” profession because then we might get some pay parity; to learn how to communicate their feelings, needs and desires without expecting us to read their minds.
What MRAs bitch, moan, and whine about is the loss of their male privilege. And as far as custody goes, a rich man will still most often get custody if he has hidden assets from his wife so she doesn’t get a fair distribution and therefore can’t hire as high-profile a lawyer as he can.
“When has the patriarchy ever gone out of its way to help women?”
Wrong question. Your first statement you make a statement about helping men then you shift terms and talk about patriarchy. Naughty, naughty. Your question should read:
“When have men ever gone out of their way to help women?”
I’ll leave it to you to answer.
Feminism is a movement that is for the equality of both men and women and serves both genders. The best solution for men who feel that their rights are being infringed upon is MORE FEMINISM. However, since men have fewer problems, feminists should not concern themselves whatsoever with any of men’s problems.
Men have fewer problems than women do, so any problems they do have do not matter. Solving women’s problems needs to come first. We shouldn’t listen to men when they try to explain their problems and just dismiss anything they say, because, you know, patriarchy. However, men are obligated to listen to, and empathize with feminist’s point of view or they are misogynists.
If men do not completely agree with something a feminist has to say, he is a misogynist and his opinion doesn’t matter. If a woman doesn’t agree with some part of feminism, then she has been brain washed by the patriarchy, so her opinion really doesn’t matter.
WHAT IF A MAN WANTS TO BE WITH HIS KIDS, AND DOES NOT WANT A DIVORICE. IN THIS CASE A WOMAN STILL GETS HALF AND THE RIGHT OF THEIR CHILDREN. CHILDREN HAVE RIGHT TO PICK WHO THEY STAY WITH AT CERTAIN AGE. THERE ARE PLENTY OF WAYS FOR WOMEN TO STAY ON TOP WITH MANY ASSISTED LIVING PROGRAMS. WIC? WELFARE? MEDICADE? FOODSTAMPS? COMPARE YOUR HOMELESS MALE TO FEMALE RATIO. WOMEN ARE UNFAIRLY BEING ASSISTED ABOVE MEN. I DO NOT THINK MEN OR WOMEN OR RACE SHOULD BE HELD ABOVE AN OTHER. I THINK ALL SHOULD TREAT ONE ANOTHER WITH RESPECT AND DIGNITY I TRY TO WITH EVERYONE I MEET.
Thank you Jared.
So true!
The sad part is that feminism is that women can have there cake and eat it to. They can be the productive head of the household with substantial careers, they can keep the children, they can get generous alimony and child support from the courts. But a recent university study states that women are more unhappy now then ever before. Marriage in the 20-30 year old range is down from a high of 75% over 30 years ago to 50% and dropping every year. Marriage is a bad deal for young men and there not buying into it. I am all for equal rights but equal rights across the board for both men and women.
Why do you think that the marriage rate is only due to men’s dissatisfaction? Perhaps women are just as disenchanted…
true some is because of women being disenchanted..but I see more younger men then ever before shrugging off responsibilty of marriage and family. Just an obsevation from life.
I see it too Brad. You are not alone.
Precisely like feminism does with men, boys and all things masculine.
Ugh. Less of these sorts of affairs, please.
I’d like to see rape redefined as women attempting to reproduce without a man’s consent.
One study of 5000 women showed that 42% would try to get pregnant even if she knew her partner didn’t want kids.
The same poll also showed that half would tell their husband the baby was his when it was another man’s.
I hope men will realize that feminism is a women’s movement and not a humanistic movement. If you are interested in helping humanity as whole don’t look to feminism. You can’t have a movement promoting one gender that helps both equally, it’s just not going to work. We have arrived at a turning point with young women vastly outperforming young men. We can’t rely on a women’s movement to shift focus to helping our sons. Men have to be men and stop living in fear of women calling us misogynist for doing what they have been doing for 40 years. The difference is we know what equality means and it’s not the special treatment we have grown accustomed to showing women. We don’t need to make fairy tales about the patriarchy or try to treat gender as equivalent to ethnic struggles. A men’s movement seeks the true path where we can form families and be together. It does not try to exclude one gender to advance the other or minimize one another’s contributions to the society. Equality would be great but that’s not where feminism is leading us at the moment. Men need to be who they are and not simply who women tell them to be.
I am new to the Mens Rights Movement .I have personally watched one sucuide a man pleaded with his wife to not leave him and make him pay child support she cheated on him .Me and him spoke while in the community pool he sobbed he was a neighbor on mines .My and my girlfriend went back to the apartment I hard a loud thump about 12 minutes later .His wife came the next day to get more of their belongings they found him dead.I watched another suicide this guy was frustrated over the divorce he had a gun drawn and I heard him cry and seen his tears while the police stood in shock I watched from about 40 yards I saw the blood splatter from where he blew out his brains.After that incident I almost commited suicuide .I found out that the women I was about to marry was a slut.I was drove about 20 miles away to another town .I saw this guy walking in the rain I felt kinda bad and said need a lift it was my second time in my life picking up a stranger.He said hey I was in this car yesterday he said their is a bottle of Passion in here their was I kicked him out and couldnt believe it. That week their was over 500,000 tourist on that beach I was over 20 miles away.She left me took my possessions and sold my possessions legally long story but it would of been hard to prove.I played Russian Rouletter 39 times that week.She later got housing and threatned to take me to court to pay child support for her baby that wasnt mines since I had supported it while together.
I have collected 85,000 signatures for the Mens Rights Movement.
The Fathers & Men That Are Exfelons Bill was created to allow men access to housing see most men commit crimes to be men .We have children popping out babies and getting housingI am sick of knowing that virtually all the Vets I have known in my life are no branded as crimnals for petty crimes they did to just have a little happiness.I hope that Mens Rights Activist will not take offense for me speaking out since I am a exfelon I have been out for 10 years .Have attended Purdue University and have A CDL I strive to be a man of honor daily and strive to look in the mirror daily and say I am doing something good for mankind.I seek to not just help felons and vets but to be of assistance to any group .I am willing to write grants help with blogs and support any cause pertaining to Mens Rights .Peace
Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mPwS-1Dg10
Web Site
http://fathersandmenthatareexfelonsbill.blogspot.com/
I’m with you Robert!
All men deserve the right to opt out of fatherhood during the first trimester.
Women need to prove they have the financial and emotional means to support a child before they can give birth.
No surprise about issue number one as that is how most guys are screwed so bad they are forced to become political when they were not before. Men get screwed a lot but they usually don’t see it as a specifically gendered thing. In family court it becomes obvious and undeniable.
But issue number two is “feminism” itself. I find that telling. Many “nice” feminists would agree that men have issues but none agree that feminism is one of the biggest issues facing men.
“Many “nice” feminists would agree that men have issues but none agree that feminism is one of the biggest issues facing men.”
The only way that feminism is one of the biggest (negative, I assume by the context) issues facing men (or rather, it should be, that men face) is if men don’t want women to have equal rights.
Feminism has done more to help men redefine their roles and be better men than their fathers than the Men’s Rights Movement has– or, I daresay, any other socio-political movement.
As Amanda Marcotte’s piece on Good Men Project points out, the best way to solve most of these issues is: MORE FEMINISM!
http://goodmenproject.com/ethics-values/solution-mra-problems-more-feminism/
If that’s the case then why did Marcotte basically have to misrepresent what MRAs are saying about issues in that post you link to?
Feminism has done more to help men redefine their roles and be better men than their fathers than the Men’s Rights Movement has– or, I daresay, any other socio-political movement.
An easy claim to make when one movement has a 40 years headstart over the other.
I wanted to relay this story from a friend of mine that I think really and truely points to a major problem that society has within our society.
I friend of mine I will call “KIM” and her husband I will call “CHRIS” had tried for years and year to get pregnant and become parents. After spending a ton of money on IVF and other methods, finally gave up and decided to adopt.
For the past 2 years or so , they have been going thru the process, interviews, home visits, professional counselling etc etc etc just to see if they would be fit and ‘good’ parents. Alas they were turned down because “KIM” has a little history of drug use when she was a teenager (she is in her late 30s now).
Well, KIM found out last week that she is pregnant. Now this really brought a though to my mind. No one can now tell her that she can’t have this baby, or more to the point no one will tell her that. Why when you adopt a baby do parents have to go thru 2 years of a process to be deemed a fit parent but when you get pregnant, nothing if required.
Society is really screwed up. Perhaps though it might simply be that adoption is just a money making industry and if we simply gave children to adults to raise without question then there would be no money to be made.
I am trying to educate myself on the MRM, and as a woman it is sometimes difficult as I have had to wade through both feminism and misogyny. I certainly am not a feminist, and I would call myself more of a traditionalist, as I believe men and women are biologically suited to having different, but complementary roles in society. What confuses me, however, is when the MRM criticizes feminism, while at the same time taking feminism to it’s absurd and illogical conclusion. Number 10 on the list strikes me as something many men and women don’t want. My husband is proud to be my protector, and I am grateful for all he does for me. What do MRAs want? A traditional loyal wife? Free and easy sex granted by feminism? Complete segregation from women? I want to be a wife and mother, not man’s “equal.”
Here’s a great rebuttal(and the MRM in a nutshell):
“Women’s limitations are men’s obligations.”
Oh, well in that case thank you to all of mankind for putting up with my “limitations” and letting me live.
Number 10 on the list strikes me as something many men and women don’t want.
10.) The Male Gender Role (4%)
That’s right, folks, chivalry has got to go. No longer should men be expected to be the providers and protectors of society. There needs to be no shame in showing weakness, fear, and emotions other than anger. No one should be expected to “man up” and internalize their problems until they go mad. We don’t want to be conscripted and sent over to die to protect the womenfolk, or be expected to do all the backbreaking labor on our own. Just because we have penises doesn’t mean we should be forced to abide by additional societal expectations, especially when those lead to an early grave.
Why would many men and women not want men to be free from the male gender role that binds us?
My husband is proud to be my protector, and I am grateful for all he does for me. What do MRAs want? A traditional loyal wife? Free and easy sex granted by feminism? Complete segregation from women? I want to be a wife and mother, not man’s “equal.”
That’s the point of the piece. MRAs want men to be free to live the life they wish (as long as it doesn’t harm others of course). Just as you should be free to want to be a wife and mother your husband should be free to want to be a husband and father.
I understand wanting to have the freedom to enjoy your life as you want, but let me remind that we have a volunteer army, and if you don’t want to do backbreaking labor, get a job at Starbucks. You make it sound as though you have NO choices.
And my husband married me of his own free will. I did not coerce him, nor do I coerce him to open my car door for me, but he chooses to do so because it makes me happy.
I don’t think we are only the only happy couple in this country either. Feminism hasn’t managed to ruin our lives.
I know this is an old article, but being new to ideas of MRAs, I thought I would take a peak.
So… I am confused. As a feminist, I am concerned with the vast majority of these issues also (my issues are with 2… obviously, and 5 and 6 which I am not sure I totally understand). The gender stereotypes we have in place in our society screws over men and women alike, in different ways.
I guess my question is: why aren’t MRA’s just feminists? We already have a name for gender equality, which is feminism. Why is it focused on women? Because in our culture, women have been the historically shafted bunch, so they had to be pulled up to equal rights to men. Now both genders are realizing how much more ground we have to gain. Wouldn’t we be able to make more noise and enact more change if we worked together? I care about men’s rights, I care about women’s rights, which is why I identify as a feminist.
On a different note: reproductive rights? I don’t know, maybe someone can help explain this. When my boyfriend and I started having sex, the opinions for reproduction were laid out. We discussed it (condoms until I get birth control, if anything fails, then abortion), agreed, and were fine. For us to NOT agree would be an end to the sex, because anything to do with children is a big deal.
So I don’t really understand what the issue is? Talk it out with your partner to make sure you’re on the same page. And condoms? Though, for the record, I am all for the male birth control pill, that would make my life so much easier/happier.
The argument I’ve heard for why MRAs aren’t feminists is because in so many feminist organizations, the policies they promote are harmful to men. At the very least, how many feminist organizations do you hear talk about male victims of spousal abuse, or rape? So because feminist groups weren’t addressing these (and other) issues, men (and some women) created MRAs. Which, you know, that all makes sense to me. I too identify as a feminist, but if you look at the little paragraph that the author wrote about feminism, you’ll see he’s not saying feminism is evil. He’s just saying it hasn’t solved a lot of the problems men face, and it’s even made some of them worse.
But I agree that more change would be possible if MRAs and feminist groups joined forces and became…um…I don’t know what you’d call it. It couldn’t be called feminist anymore, as that term excludes men. It couldn’t be called MRAs cuz that term excludes women. We could use the word humanist (though that already has a somewhat different definition).
As for reproductive rights…yeah ideally before having sex everyone involved would sit down and work out all the details of contraception, and their position on abortion and the morning after pill, etc. However that very rarely happens. So until everyone is responsible about sex (which really isn’t likely to ever happen), reproductive rights will be an issue. Now because women are the ones pregnant, abortion rights are just that much more difficult to discuss. Men have a valid point in saying ‘it’s my baby too,’ but women also have a valid point in saying, ‘it’s my body.’ It makes the conversation difficult. It’s also true that the way it currently stands, women have a lot more control over whether they reproduce than men do. I don’t have an answer for that, but I do see how it’s a problem.
Artemis:
I guess my question is: why aren’t MRA’s just feminists? We already have a name for gender equality, which is feminism. Why is it focused on women? Because in our culture, women have been the historically shafted bunch, so they had to be pulled up to equal rights to men. Now both genders are realizing how much more ground we have to gain. Wouldn’t we be able to make more noise and enact more change if we worked together? I care about men’s rights, I care about women’s rights, which is why I identify as a feminist
I bet the reason you are wondering that is because you have bought into the the idea that being feminist is synonymous with one who wants equality. Perhaps that is why you call yourself a feminist but there are way too many feminists out there to whom this association does not apply and in a lot of case actively contradict that association.
On a lighter note even though I don’t identify as an MRA it comes off as a bit condescending to just say, “Why don’t they just work with feminism?”. A lot of us have tried just that and it didn’t work because as I say there are people in that movement whose motives are not equality for all people. Now that doesn’t make the entire movement bad but its enough to break the illusion that anyone that wants equality for all people should be a feminist.
Because in our culture, women have been the historically shafted bunch, so they had to be pulled up to equal rights to men.
(Bolding by me.)
This again. How much leeway do you expect to make with men’s activists (or even men in general) by going around saying that women are THE historically shafted bunch? I bet you don’t meant to play Oppression Olympics but that’s what it sounds like when between the genders one is designated at “the victims” of gender oppression.
As for reproduction you say you and your partner talk things out. Let’s say after talking things out you get pregnant. You could very well go back your desicion to get an abortion. On one hand I readily agree that its your body your choice. Problem is when you make that choice you quite literally have control of the father/child relationship in your hands. And it doesn’t help that there’s a few feminists making the claim that the only reason men feel sad and upset over their partner getting an abortion is because it means he’s lost out on a chance to control her by keeping her bound to child care.
And let’s say you don’t abort and carry the child to term. You still have the option of:
1. Safely abondoning the child at a fire house, hospital, et….
2. Giving the child up for adoption regardless of whethere he wants to be in the child’s life or not.
3. Put another man’s name on the birth certificate and hold him responsible for child support while denying visitation/custody.
4. You could also do No. 3 to the actual father if you wanted to.
In short a lot of the people that will quickly chime off, “He should have kept it in his pants.” will scream the bloodiest of murder over the idea of “She should have kept it out of her pants.”
Being of the female part, I do agree with some of these points. But there is just one point, that I have to ask about. It says in part 5, ‘reproductive rights’, that there is no pill or anything that can prevent them from getting a woman pregnant. If not so, what is a condom for? It couldn’t be for the woman, because she certainly can’t wear it. Sure, there are more option for women, but biologically men continue to produce sperm so why would they want to stop, compared to women who have all the eggs they will ever have and cannot produce anymore. Furthermore, men can surely adopt children, so for their sake, if they so desire a child, why not adopt and help some of the children who are worse off? I’m sure that would portray them as heroes.
It seems to me that MRAs want the freedom to sleep with hundreds of sluts with a guarantee that they will never have to deal with ever fathering a child. I wish there was a male birth control pill, but there’s not. This is one of many things I hate about feminism: teaching women to spread for any man. A woman loses value every time she let’s a man have her body outside marriage, hello! As for me, I’m raising ALL of my children to remain abstinent and only make love when married. But what do I know? I’m “oppressed.”