What are men’s rights activists so fired up about? Here are the results of our MRA goal poll.
The editors at the Good Men Project Magazine asked if I could write a piece on the top 10 issues for men’s rights activists 
(MRAs). As I am only one man, I felt I could not speak for the rest of the community on how we prioritize issues. So I came up with 17 things we consider problems men face and set up a poll. (I would like to thank everyone who voted, especially from Men’s Rights Reddit.)
It is important to note that the poll is far from perfect. It has a small sample size, and the ability to pick a single issue did not go over well with many MRAs—in their mind, the goals of the movement aren’t so easily prioritized—they’re all important and interconnected. That said, while this poll isn’t perfect, it does, to some degree, reflect the distribution of priorities among those MRAs who participated.
More notes on methodology here.
Image DieselDemon/Flickr
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For me its the abuse of the protections laws in Florida. A few well aimed lies from a spouse and I’m fighting for my rights as a father!
The main problem is with the abuse of law. Certain sections have been used illegally against men, which should be debated.
Given the article on the 10 top issues facing men today – whatever you may think of them or whatever methods were used to collect this data (who exactly was interviewed etc) one thing that really hit home with me is the issue of prostate cancer – Particularly the numbers of men quoted as suffering from this issue versus the number of women suffering from breast cancer. These numbers are not too far apart, yet in terms of media exposure and public awareness, prostate cancer is nowhere near enough reported as a serious issue. Inequality?
Government ready to Bend The Rules for pleasing women But no safety for men though they are worst victim of crime. The reason for it is the false belief in society that she is woman she can’t commit crime http://lifenstory.com/she_cant_commit_crime
Woah. I was all for this until I got to the feminist part. As a feminist, my main goal is promoting equality FOR ALL. Because out society is a double sided coin- when women are expected to do certain things, so are men. I understand what problems men have, and am always trying to help solve them. My father was abusive- did I say all men are therefore disusting animals? No! I decided that some PEOPLE are simply evil. How many times are men expected to man up, deny their feelings? How many times has not liking sports or not… Read more »
Then call yourself an egalitarian. “Feminism” is slanted at the start.
I agree with Melissa, Feminism has many of the same goals that you do. We know that the Patriarchy also hurts many men, especially poor men. You really do need to learn more about feminism; feminists should be your allies in the fight for gender equality, not your enemies. It also shocked me when I saw reproductive rights listed as a problem. You are aware that the fetus develops inside the woman’s body… right? That is why women get all the choices and men get none. Because you cannot force a woman to undergo an abortion nor force her to… Read more »
I agree with Melissa, Feminism has many of the same goals that you do. We know that the Patriarchy also hurts many men, especially poor men. You really do need to learn more about feminism; feminists should be your allies in the fight for gender equality, not your enemies. Honestly its a matter that while there are feminists that do want to be allies in this a lot of them simply do not and would rather cast men or MRAs as enemies. It also shocked me when I saw reproductive rights listed as a problem. You are aware that the… Read more »
Well obviously there are many men’s rights advocates that would rather cast feminists as enemies (my evidence of this: the results of this poll), but that doesn’t mean that everybody should just vilify everybody else and perpetuate the fighting instead of working together. And if he wasn’t talking about the right to say what happens to the fetus before it is born then he shouldn’t have titled #5 “Reproductive Rights,” if what you are saying is true, then that is an intentionally misleading title, and I fell for the bait, sorry about that. So essentially, #5 is exactly the same… Read more »
Well obviously there are many men’s rights advocates that would rather cast feminists as enemies (my evidence of this: the results of this poll), but that doesn’t mean that everybody should just vilify everybody else and perpetuate the fighting instead of working together. Yes the nasty is coming from both sides. Ideally it would be preferable if we could get past all the hypocritical, “You’re the ones that are being hostile, not us!” And if he wasn’t talking about the right to say what happens to the fetus before it is born then he shouldn’t have titled #5 “Reproductive Rights,”… Read more »
When conception occurs after consensual sex, both parties are equally responsible. At that point the man cannot “opt out “, but women can (abortion). Men also cannot “opt in” because they cannot simply choose to stay with a woman that might not want them around. Worse they may not know the woman is pregnant, not immediately for certain, and maybe never. But when the realization of fathered offspring comes, it can come at any time 1, 10, 20, even 50 years later. I pose this question, if it were possible, would it be okay for a father to hide the… Read more »
Men can “opt out” of conception by 1) always wearing a condom you bought yourself beforehand 2) only having sex with women you know and trust and would be ok raising a kid with 3) not having sex with women you don’t know or who have questionable character. MRAs slut-shame women for sleeping around without facing the consequences of their actions. Well guess what? There are consequences for men to sleep around, too, so consider the consequences before you put your penis in her and you minimize the problems that result afterwards. Maybe instead of whining about the problems that… Read more »
The best response to this hogwash I ever saw was from a man… “Only a man can donate one cell, watch a woman grow it inside her body, feed it from her body and then claim 50% ownership.”
If you read carefully you’d see they said that feminism isn’t all bad and the parts that demonize men are the parts that need to be taken out of it. While you’re bitching about feminism being demonized feminism in some aspects demonizes men. Also feminism is NOT for equal rights, it’s for women’s rights. LGBT is NOT for equal rights either it’s for LGBT community rights [but it’s certainly less obnoxious as feminism since it doesn’t demonize the heterosexuals. I’ve never felt like LGBT was pointing a finger as me for being a heterosexual and saying I’m a scumbag because… Read more »
There is also the fact that, unlike the other items listed, ‘feminism’ is an idea and not an effect. Mixing apples and oranges like this makes anything numerical about this pointless.
Oral sex solves a lot of these problems and is less work for the guy. It’s not as easy as eating a woman out, but women get more orgasms anyway so it’s a fair trade.
And men’s rights issue número uno is circumcision.
Other then gay marriage and abortion (which is debatable in MRM), give some examples please?
Alright, so there’s something I still don’t understand about the MRM…or at least about a lot of the MRAs I’ve come into contact with. Most of their issues, including most of the issues on this article stem from traditional norms about men. (Only #2: Feminism doesn’t necessarily, and arguably where it’s harmed men is when it’s failed to recognize and challenge traditional gender norms, but that’s another issue). But like, okay some examples of what I mean: the idea that men are aggressive? Traditional gender norm. The idea that men are less emotional? Traditional gender norm. Men as less capable… Read more »
HeatherN – “Most of their [MRA] issues, including most of the issues on this article stem from traditional norms about men.” Some MRAs are what I would call conservative – they believe in the gender norms, some believe in some of the gender norms but not others. The bulk of the MRA’s I spend time with are opposed to the adverse impacts legislation and law enforcement policies that harm men, these MRA’s are also often opposed to gender norms such as traditional marriage. In the same way you say not all feminists are the same, equally not all MRA’s are… Read more »
Well first, I wasn’t lumping all MRAs together. I just want to point out that I mentioned, “a lot of the MRAs I’ve come into contact with.” Just want to clear that up.
But so, okay, if those four points are sort of what it all has in common…then really that seems to me to be mostly about being anti-feminism (or at least against a certain kind of feminism).
The four points intersect with certain specific types of feminism under certain circumstances. For example: Point 1 – is about being egalitarian and not anti-women, it is more a definition than specifically anti-feminist. Taken as a whole, some feminists claim feminism is for equality but many results demonstrate otherwise. This point would lead to anti-feminism if a specific feminism type claimed to speak for all women and/or all men. Point 2 – is for boys and men, so would only be anti-feminism if a specific type of feminism was anti-boys and anti-men. There are some of those types – for… Read more »
Easy, you’re making the mistake of taking what some MRA’s are worried about and mixing it with others. SOME worry about traditional marriage, others don’t care about traditional marriage. Some are worried about gender roles, others are ok with it. You’re using MRA/MRM in a generalized sense here but they don’t all follow the same belief just as feminists don’t all follow the same belief. There is no one path to the MRM, just a common goal of addressing men’s rights and some also see it as egalitarianism.
Right I’ll again point out I wasn’t lumping them altogether. I was literally talking about specific things I’ve heard from specific people who identify as MRAs. I didn’t mean to imply that I thought all MRAs thought exactly the same things. But I have seen the same people who argue that men are just as capable of being parents also argue that preserving traditional marriage is important for our society, for example. Also, I don’t mean this as a challenge or something. I am literally hoping someone could explain it. Again, not as a generalization…but that I see a lot… Read more »
“But I have seen the same people who argue that men are just as capable of being parents also argue that preserving traditional marriage is important for our society, for example.”
I am not sure about your baby-bathwater approach. Why can’t men be as capable parents and still be in a marriage or traditional marriage? Men aren’t the same kind of parents, men and women aren’t interchangeable parents. Men and women aren’t interchangeable. The sooner every ‘equality’ group accepts that the more successful they will be in achieving their respective and hopefully convergent goals.
Right I’m not going to discus whether men and women are inherently as different as you are saying, because that’s not really the point of my question. But if someone believes that the differences between men and women are mostly biological in nature and also believes in traditional marriage…well then part of the explanation for why women are assumed to be better parents is to do with presumed biological differences between men and women. Women give birth, so the argument goes, and their hormones shift, etc, when a baby is born therefore they are more connected to it, etc. (Not… Read more »
Well the nitpicking about which you like and which you don’t would actually be at the core of most men’s complaints about feminism. And the point of whether men and women are inherently different IS at the core of the entire question. I don’t believe women are ‘better’ parents I think they are different ones and have a different role imposed not by society but by biology. They give birth and nurse. Men don’t. Men do provide emotional, financial and physical support and protection. Feminism argues that women should have the right to reject that role and/or to participate as… Read more »
Easy answer, some people are hypocrits:P I’ve seen some of them myself on both sides of the fence, wanting traditional marriage or certain types of traditional behaviour whilst changing other stuff. I’ve never really understood the whole appeal of traditional families n marriage, I’m a fan of people constantly evolving for the better. And usually traditional marriage is used to insult homosexuals which pisses me off, can’t stand people who try to take ownership of what marriage is supposed to be and control other peoples lives.
But how is that controlling other people’s lives? Same-sex marriage is in fact a redefinition of marriage and the conversation about that being a new and accepted definition in our society was simply trampled upon. You were either some homophobic religious nut or a ‘gay’ looking to destroy the institution of marriage. Just because many many many people believe that marriage was always meant to be man/woman and there is great justification for believing that doesn’t mean it was an ‘insult’ to homosexuals. The insult was telling reasonable people who said ‘woah wait a second that isn’t my understanding or… Read more »
“MRA” describes a wide range of political groups, many of whom are highly socially conservative and traditional. It’s just a matter of definition. There’s plenty of women who argue in favour of preserving traditional marriage too, they just don’t get lumped in with feminists. It’s important to compare like with like: Feminists are roughly equivalent to masculists. The terms hasn’t really been all that well defined (although neither has feminism) but it’s proponents, such as Warren Farrell, tend to argue against the gender norms you mentioned. Masculists would typically be MRAs, but not all MRAs are masculists. Just as not… Read more »
Oooooookay now this is starting to make a bit more sense to me. I just don’t see a lot of people identifying as masculists, perhaps in part because it is such a new term. So here’s a question, considering masculists are generally arguing against gender norms…as are feminists. Do they generally use a similar interpretive framework and set of ideas? (I’m not talking politics at the moment…just talking about ideas). So, would a masculist also draw the conclusion that, say, industrialization really hammered home the strict women in home, men outside of home dynamic? Do masculists generally discuss things like… Read more »
From what I’ve seen of masculism, they are perceived as a faction of the MRM and are developing their own theories based upon their own research (for example paleomasculinity). Feminist principles and research rigor are seen as deeply flawed and, in a lot of cases, based on deliberately skewed data. This is particularly true when the MRM discusses DV stats, general violence stats, sentencing of women criminals, child support and police department policies to name some that come to mind immediately. The MRM has internal debates over just how inclusive they are, masculinism, MGTOW, PUA, MRA and more are still… Read more »
Transhuman says: “The MRM has internal debates over just how inclusive they are, masculinism, MGTOW, PUA, MRA and more are still debating their common ground; it is an evolving community.”
PUA is “pickup artist”, isn’t it?
Yes, PUA = Pickup Artist, also called the Game community (as differentiated from gamers who play computer and associated entertainment forms).
Transhuman, I don’t understand how a community whose purpose is to teach men how to seduce women has much in common with the ones that advocate for men’s rights.
Transhuman, I don’t understand how a community whose purpose is to teach men how to seduce women has much in common with the ones who advocate for men’s rights.
Nor do some people in the MRM. I included PUA in my comment because it is currently an ongoing discussion – some PUA’s consider themselves a part of the MRM and have made cases for why they are for boys and men, ergo MRM. Other people of the MRM argue against PUA’s being included based on a number of objections. Added to the mix is different philosophies of PUA. In summary, the arguments I’ve seen boil down to – men enjoy sex with women; men are expected (a gender norm) to pursue women yet are often ill-trained to do so.… Read more »
I left out the counter to PUA’s being a part of the MRM – the argument I’ve seen against PUA’s from other members of the MRM boils down to they are seeking sex using false or inaccurate pretenses.
The only major writer I’m aware of in the are is Warren Farrell, but I’ve seen a heck of alot of smaller scale writing online, NSWATM, for instance, identifies as a masculist blog. Anything I’ve seen from a person identifying as a masculist has been ideologically similar to feminism, except that male oppression, female privilege and misandry are acknowleged as an opposite side to the problem. Some go further and argue that men are oppressed as a class in the same way that poor people are, but I don’t think that’s born out by the facts. It’s a young school… Read more »
Well thanks for answering. That does sort of clear a few things up. 🙂
Bitte schon!
Well I am an egalitarian, but that includes masculist and feminist ideals. I believe in some feminist theory I guess but there’s also some stuff I’m on the fence about. I comment on this site and it’s a good mix of masculist and feminist, some stuff I agree on, other stuff I probably don’t. I believe privilege exists for both men and women, and in recent years the gap between men and women in the western world I think has diminished a huge amount. I believe there are some areas women are worse off, and other areas men are worse… Read more »
I posted this early this morning. Did it get eaten?
Basically, it’s an opposition to a whole bunch of socially conservative ideals. So what I don’t understand is when I see MRAs complaining about feminists for being opposed to socially conservative ideals. Like, when I see complaints that feminists are destroying traditional marriage etc….well…as an MRA opposed to all of these traditional gender roles, wouldn’t you also be opposed to traditional marriage? Part of ‘traditional marriage’ relied on strict traditional gender norms…so if you want to change them, then what marriage looks like will change too. But really, it’s more than that…I see MRAs supporting all sorts of socially conservative… Read more »
“The fact that I am a male is not enough to hold me responsible for stopping rape. As men we are apparently not supposed to help women just because we are men and they are women…except for when women want us to?” To me this goes to the crux of the issue of not just feminism but female sexism. Men are held to be responsible for the *bad* things other men do; if you ask any women why men should put their health/lives on the line not just walking home and protecting the women they like/love but even ones they… Read more »
Okay let me see if I can lay it out. 1. A screw up (or deception) at a IVF clinic. 2. A an accidental swap (or an attempted kidnapping) at a maternity ward. 3. Mother withholds the truth about a child’s paternity. In the first two situations most people would call for blood. In the third there is a division over whether or not the guy be right to leave. What I think bugs a lot of people is this. In the first two situations while the father is outraged, so is the mother. In the third the father is… Read more »
3. Mother withholds the truth about a child’s paternity. In the first two situations most people would call for blood. In the third there is a division over whether or not the guy be right to leave. You are missing someone here. There is the father who never got to know his child. It means a woman not only steals a man’s child, she steals another man’s life. ‘We’ keep excusing that with ‘what is good for the child’ as if the child’s rights trump the man’s rights. Trying to figure out when the mother is pregnant her rights trump… Read more »
True. Just as the mother may not always know the truth about paternity the biological dad may not always know the truth about paternity either. ‘We’ keep excusing that with ‘what is good for the child’ as if the child’s rights trump the man’s rights. Or even (possibly) deeper than than that how do we know that the man that’s being left out wouldn’t be the better parent? At most all we have to go with on that is the mother’s word if the biological father’s unfitness isn’t something obvious like him being abusive. Trying to figure out when the… Read more »
Or even (possibly) deeper than than that how do we know that the man that’s being left out wouldn’t be the better parent? Or even possibly deeper yet again; even if we know the man being left out would be a worse parent doesn’t change the fact for a second he is the father and has the right to raise his own child. Period. Unless of course people here want to start fitness tests for mothers (say for instance one who slept with so many men in one month she can’t figure out who could possibly be the dad or… Read more »
Michael: Wait Danny certainly you can’t be buying into her argument. The triviality doesn’t stem from the ‘innocent third person’ because all we have done in this thread is put the argument in light of women’s choices/rights and children’s choices/rights. The point is the innocent MAN who has been duped into providing emotional/financial support for a child that is not his forced to live a lie that goes to the core of his life. While that is not where the trivilality stems from that “innocent third person” is the the bind that people keep using to say that he should… Read more »
She is most certainly not misandry writ large. And that’s close to a moderation violation.
That’s to Michael, not you Danny.
Misandry was definitely out of line and I apologize to Heather for the slur. However I will say ‘sexist’ applies. I am sure both you and Heather understand that men can be both sexist and misogynist without having any real hatred for women but simply by adopting societal prejudices and attitudes that they eventually assume as being axioms. And this is where I would classify Heather’s comments as I’ve experienced them in this thread. This is presumably a forum for and about men’s rights so how a discussion about men being lied to about their paternity is only discussed in… Read more »
Alright I sort of addressed most of this in my other reply, but as to the whole adoption thing, I’ll tell you about my really good friend who was adopted. She’s in her 50s, so her adoption was all under the table and whatnot. Her parents were told not to ever tell her she was adopted. She figured it out (in no small part because she looks very different to her parents). Was it upsetting? Of course. Did she wonder why her bio-parents abandoned her? Yup. Did she seek them out? Sort of. She wanted to find out who these… Read more »
Fair enough. Now let me ask. Let’s saying your friend, upon finding/figuring it out, decided to cut all ties with her adoptive family. Could you imagine people coming out of the woodwork to call her names and insult her? And if you did could you imagine no one coming to her defense, as is implying, that she is indeed wrong for leaving after feeling betrayed? How about if your grandad have left his adoptive family on a search for his bio-parents? Would he suddenly have become a jerk or something? Its fine that your friend and your grandad were adopted… Read more »
“Does feeling betrayed for even leaving automatically make you a bad person?”
I’m not trying to prescribe how someone should feel in such a situation. For goodness sake…I’m talking about people’s action. To completely abandon a family because you find out your not biologically related is really messed up. Lying to someone about their biology is also really messed up.
Also, we’re not talking about the vast majority of healthy relationships here…we’re talking about the really crappy outliers. It’s crappy all around.
That was a typo. That should have been “Does feeling betrayed or even leaving automatically make you a bad person?” That’s why I asked “what if…” your friend or your grandad left would they be jerks. AKA people’s actions. But even then it may not be an exact analog considering you are talking about the child’s actions/reactions versus the actions/reactions of a decieved parent. To completely abandon a family because you find out your not biologically related is really messed up. Lying to someone about their biology is also really messed up. Fair enough that you actually hold both parties… Read more »
To completely abandon a family because you find out your not biologically related is really messed up. Lying to someone about their biology is also really messed up. First of all most men do not abandon their children when they find out they were lied to because as you pointed out they have developed an emotional bond to them. It does however cause a vast conflict knowing their life has been a lie, their wife has lied to them, that their options were taken away and that they do have these feelings that exist but have been a result of… Read more »
For me the issues lying, flat out. Lying to hide cheating, lying to gain resources, lying to manipulate. Not good. If I was to try to get pregnant through IVF and I found out years later that the child I had wasn’t actually mine? Yeah, I’d be really wigged out. Not at the child though, at the situation where either a mistake was made or someone f’d up. If it was a sperm donation issue (cause the f’ up could be the wrong egg, the wrong sperm or both), I think both of us would be entirely freaked out. Whose… Read more »
“And any woman lying to a man about her fetus, in order to cover up something she did or to obtain resources is acting in a way that is extraordinarily unethical.” Thank you for simply stating that. It has been next to impossible to get that simple acknowledgement without some qualification. “I would feel horrible for the child and the father in that situation because they’d have done nothing to deserve the falsehood.” Thank you again for that simple understanding. “That being said, there is a big difference in being a parent and an egg/sperm donor. Then again again, we… Read more »
“Oh I’ll agree there are people who do this but I don’t think Heather is one of them. In fact she has said in this thread already that she thinks men are more than just wallets and sperm.”
No. She has said that fatthers are not just sperm when she justifies lying to man whose sperm did not cause a baby and lying to man whose sperm did cause the baby.
Right well I’ll jump in and try to explain, again, that nowhere in any of this am I trying to say that lying to a partner/spouse/whatever about paternity is a good thing. I’m with Julie here, the lying is where the betrayal is centered. That’s why I asked about other types of betrayal…because I understand that being lied to is detrimental to a relationship…and yes, totally unethical. But in the vast majority of cases, I’m willing to bet most women who find themselves in a situation with multiple potential-bio-fathers don’t know who the bio-father is. And so you might suggest… Read more »
And so you might suggest mandatory paternity tests for everyone. And I’d say that’s not out of the realm of a reasonable request….except that it sort of reduces fatherhood to sperm. It just reinforces the patrilineal baggage we’ve got as a culture. I’m more for trying to work out of that baggage, rather than find ways to hammer it home. The only way you can possibly be consistent on that opinion is if you agree that it is unreasonable to ever request paternity tests and that you should never reduce fatherhood to sperm. Which would eliminate the concept of paternal… Read more »
HeatherN: Also, to Danny’s question – “If DNA isn’t important why did the mother lie about it?” – I already tried to answer that question. Well first, it’s assuming that the mother did actually lie; that she actually knows who the bio-father is. Then let me add on to it. “If DNA isn’t important then why was the mother not truthful about it?” In other words even if it was a matter of her not being sure there is still the question of why did she hide the doubt? If she sleep with multiple men and gets pregnant then why… Read more »
Hi Heather, I did and do apologize for that over/mis-characterization in prior post. I did and do still think that you are confusing fathers rights with fathers. When it comes down to a choice between the rights fo a child born by a woman and supported by a man who is not the father but has been lied to about it I am firmly of the opinion that the man’s rights can and must trump that of the child. There is not even a contest. In this case the child’s rights, the father’s rights AND the unsuspecting man’s right’s have… Read more »
“Now as to the suggestion I’m placing a child’s rights over a father’s…well yes I am. Actually, I place a child’s rights over anyone else’s (including the mother’s), particularly in this sort of situation. ” It isn’t a matter of putting the child’s rights above the fathers. It is a matter of putting the child’s rights above the rights of a an who is NOT the father. No way. No how. Try this on for a size; a man has a fiance, he is also sleeping with bunch of other women. His fiance gets pregnant. She dies in childbirth. Now… Read more »
A mandatory paternity test in that situation does not “reduce a father to sperm.” There can be family court (think paternity, custody, visitation, child support, etc.) consequences for not getting one in time.
I have to jump in here. I have been reading the replies and what I don’t understand are the responses the “men” are getting from others. Men are responding with how they see things and it confuses me that there are attempts to show men that they’re wrong, that their views are off in some way. These responses ARE how men see things. We’ve shown the inequities but as long as society continues to stack the deck against men, men are going to continue be behind the 8-ball. Nothing is going to change any time soon. How can we expect… Read more »
HeatherN: Well here’s the thing…I’m not saying that he’s obliged to stay with her, necessarily. I’m not saying that the betrayal (of having sex with someone outside of a presumably monogamous relationship) is trivial. What I’m saying is that there’s still a kid there that he’d been raising…from the kid’s perspective, he’s that kid’s father. That child still needs to be cared for. And I’m saying that maybe, just maybe, if that betrayal hurt him that badly then perhaps the best thing is for all ties to be cut. And while yes that child needs to be cared for I… Read more »
Marcus Williams: That’s not what I’m saying, or at least, not what I’m trying to say. It is a profound betrayal to a man, no argument there. I wasn’t trying to attribute that to you. Sorry for not clarifying. If a man were to discover this lie and bail *before* the child was born, none of this would be the case….. But yet and still such a man is still demonized as a deadbeat dad that needs to “step up”. So either he is a deadbeat or an asshole, who either way shirked his responsibility. …..but I was taking issue… Read more »
HeatherN:
And I don’t know how often these cases are won in the man’s favour, but you can sue for paternity testing. And you can sue a woman for fraud if she lies to you about paternity. In the U.S. you can, anyway. Criminal and civil law are very different…and often civil law has a lot more leeway.
From what I understand not very often. Usually its a matter of telling the dad “too bad so sad”. But again a mom has her child swapped with another at birth for a few days and she can get millions.
Okey pokey…I’m not going to continue this conversation, not because I’m frustrated or anything (I’m not). I just sort of think we’ve both sort of reached the point where we’re just going to start the conversation over. It’s been a good conversation, really. I like talking with you…but I started writing a reply and I realized I was kind of repeating myself. I think we both pretty much understand each other. 🙂 Although, if you want to keep discussing this then totally feel free to e-mail me at [email protected] 🙂 Last thing…I’d be really interested in seeing stats about how… Read more »
HeatherN: My point is that a father is so much more than sperm. In the face of everything that a Dad is, exactly which male provided the sperm is pretty freaking trivial. (And similarly, a mother is so much more than a womb or an egg, that exactly whose womb or egg created the kid is pretty freaking trivial). But bear in mind that while you say that a dad is more than the man that provided the sperm its a matter of everything that dad is being based on a deception. Earlier you mentioned a woman lying about where… Read more »
Earlier you mentioned a woman lying about where she was from. Well let’s say she lies about where she is from and they get together and a few years later he finds out she lied. Compared to finding out that a man is not the genetic father of the child yes lying about where she came from seems trivial because lying about where she came from doesn’t involve an innocent third person Wait Danny certainly you can’t be buying into her argument. The triviality doesn’t stem from the ‘innocent third person’ because all we have done in this thread is… Read more »
“Now what does all of that have to do with DNA testing and what-not? (Sorry, this is long). Well let’s pretend that I accidentally became pregnant (lol). If I was unsure of who the bio-father was, would I risk the abandonment of all the potential bio-fathers by informing them that I don’t know? Possibly not…because, again, raising a kid as a single parent is absolute crap in our society. I think it’s also about complicated relationships. If I was in a relationship with someone, and I had an affair and became pregnant, I’d be more interested in making sure I… Read more »
HeatherN: I think it’s also part of why there is such social stigma and potential financial consequences for bio-fathers who leave. There was no physical, practical thing to force them to care for the kid…so there had to be a financial one. Now, that in itself isn’t suggesting that men are bad people. It’s, theoretically, admitting that women are only keeping the child because they feel forced to (by society, the law, etc), and so we created a way to force men to keep the kid too. That’s about what I gather as well. I wonder if this were any… Read more »
“So then, why not financial opting-out? Well, because we still haven’t created a strong enough support system for single parent” This is such gobbledygook double-talk. You are saying that a woman who has 100% choice on a) whether to have sex b) whether to use birth control c) whether to abort or not i.e can opt out or in at any point and would raise bloody hell if anyone interfered at any point with ‘her’ decision and ‘her’ body can now use the argument that she can’t support the child she chose to risk and have must be supported by… Read more »
Right well, first, the importance of whether a kid is biologically related (or not) is sort of lost on me. I mean, I understand the arguments people have; I comprehend it. But at the same time I don’t really agree with them or feel it…mostly because I will never be a biological father and I will never be a biological mother. To my mind, biology is over-rated. Well, in this case anyway…as a field of study I’m sure it’s awesome. 🙂 So as for the ‘shopping for the best father’ thing. Well…that’s no more true than considering dating as ‘shopping… Read more »
“If they hadn’t had (presumably) unprotected sex with the bio-mother, then they’d be in the clear. Which man’s sperm actually inseminated the egg seems a bit unimportant in light of that. ” In the clear? If a woman has sex with 20 men and one of them gets another woman pregnant, then we can by the same logic hold her financially accountable too? I mean she isn’t ‘in the clear’ after all, she did have sex with him too right? The fact that you can so casually dismiss a man’s sperm as being unimporant is astounding; if it IS my… Read more »
Heather: So as for the ‘shopping for the best father’ thing. Well…that’s no more true than considering dating as ‘shopping for the best partner.’ Contrary to the many rom-coms out there, it’s not making a laundry list of traits you like and finding someone who matches them. (lol). Not to mention, the idea of ‘shopping around’ implies that she actually knows who the bio-father is and isn’t telling anyone. Which, chances are the mother had no idea who the bio-father is. And I really don’t think most mothers are using the ‘acting in the best interest of the child’ as… Read more »
“If the biology doesn’t matter then why go through steps to keep it truth of it from them?” Because there’s a disconnect…this time between what really should be and what society has created. I think our society has placed such a huge importance on the biology of the kid. We have a test now that can determine whether a kid is biologically related to you or not…and we’ve got remnants of a patrilineal society. So why hide it? Because telling the truth could screw up the relationships that are necessary in our society to raise the kid. Now, ideally, it… Read more »
Because there’s a disconnect…this time between what really should be and what society has created. I think our society has placed such a huge importance on the biology of the kid. We have a test now that can determine whether a kid is biologically related to you or not…and we’ve got remnants of a patrilineal society. So why hide it? Because telling the truth could screw up the relationships that are necessary in our society to raise the kid. So in other words the DNA matters more than most people are willing to admit? Or better yet the DNA matters… Read more »
“So in other words the DNA matters more than most people are willing to admit?” Naw, I mean people think it matters more than it does. People get so tied up in biology, when really, practically, it doesn’t make much difference. That’s what I mean. And when I say physically tied to the kid…I mean without the social systems in place to provide for adoption and safe drop-off points…she is tied to the kid. Right like, she gives birth and there’s a tiny person there. She can’t just leave it (unless she’s got the familial support to do so…or the… Read more »
…I mean without the social systems in place to provide for adoption and safe drop-off points… Meanwhile fathers that try to take part in their children’s lives are having their connections cut. I’m not even a father and I find it very aggravating to hear on the same people on a regular basis complain that men need to step up and be fathers but then go dead silent when fathers are fighting to be in their kid’s lives. Fair enough. I appreciate the exchange. It just seems that despite all the biology, social pressures, support systems etc… it still feels… Read more »
“Today is Mother’s Day and other than one piece mentioned at Fathers and Families I’ve yet to hear a negative article/post/piece about mothers today.” If you’re talking about on GMP, well then I’ve no idea cuz I’ve never spent a Father’s Day as part of GMP. 🙂 If you’re talking about in general…oh I can assure you that somewhere on the internet there’s some article about how horrible mothers are. It’s the internet, you can find anything you’re looking for. 🙂 Anyway…let me come at this discussion (which I’ve enjoyed) from a different angle and ask a couple questions. Why… Read more »
“Why does the biology of a kid mean so much? I mean, is it just the intentional deception that is the point of contention? Would you feel the same way if we were talking about financial deception, or if she lied about where she came from, etc?” Let me ask you the same question as a woman who’se just had a baby and had it taken from the maternity ward by the father to raise with the woman he has decided would make a better mother since he deems you, the bio-mother-, as an inferior choice. Does biology matter then?… Read more »
I’ll reply to this more once I’m at my computer. I’m on my phone At the moment. Basically though, most of the gender reversing you’re doing there I’d also say “biology doesn’t matter so much.” particularly at the last example you give with a cheating spouse. The cheating would be a betrayal, but whether a kid comes from that betrayal doesn’t somehow make the betrayal worse. Anyway, I’ll write more later.
Alright, first to the suggestion that I’m downplaying the role of Dads or that I am assuming men don’t bond with their kids or something…that’s exactly the opposite of what I’m saying, actually. My point is that a father is so much more than sperm. In the face of everything that a Dad is, exactly which male provided the sperm is pretty freaking trivial. (And similarly, a mother is so much more than a womb or an egg, that exactly whose womb or egg created the kid is pretty freaking trivial). As to the question of whether my position is… Read more »
“As to taking a kid out of the maternity ward is the same thing…well the difference there, mate, is that she already knows she has a kid. Taking a kid away from someone who knows it’s their kid, that’s just cruel (whether it’s away from a man or a woman).” The woman still has a child, just not hers. After all, it doesn’t matter which child she has, as you said “whose womb or egg created the kid is pretty freaking trivial” The woman went through labour, a child was delivered; at that point it doesn’t matter which child she… Read more »
f you’re talking about on GMP, well then I’ve no idea cuz I’ve never spent a Father’s Day as part of GMP. 🙂 If you’re talking about in general…oh I can assure you that somewhere on the internet there’s some article about how horrible mothers are. It’s the internet, you can find anything you’re looking for. 🙂 No I’m talking about in general. And yes while I’m sure you could find some negativity about mothers “somewhere” its not quite the mainstream media coverage that negativity about father has been known to spew. Anyway…let me come at this discussion (which I’ve… Read more »
Well here’s the thing…I’m not saying that he’s obliged to stay with her, necessarily. I’m not saying that the betrayal (of having sex with someone outside of a presumably monogamous relationship) is trivial. What I’m saying is that there’s still a kid there that he’d been raising…from the kid’s perspective, he’s that kid’s father. That child still needs to be cared for. And your explanation of why it matters so much is sort of my point. It’s really rather socially constructed…it’s all about the patrilineal society we’ve inherited. As for the father’s day/mother’s day good article/bad articles thing. I’ve never… Read more »
Couples go through a lot of effort and money to conceive through IVF when they could adopt. Women, as well as men, want to have “their” child, it isn’t because of patrilineal baggage, if this was the case women would not care if the child was swapped without her knowledge.
Adoption is different, the couple have foreknowledge of what they are doing.
“In the case of switched babies in hospitals or fertility clinics…well then my issue with it is that it’s institutional fraud.” If one woman commits fraud, by falsely representing who the father of her child is, then that is just as bad (to the defrauded father) as an institution doing it I use the hospital example to demonstrate that women appear to mind very much whether the child they take home is indeed “their” child. Why is it aberrant for men to care as much about knowing their child is indeed “theirs” as well? The issue of men and paternity… Read more »
That is a neat entrapment technique if I ever saw one. If a woman can decide to have a biological abortion, why can a man not have a financial abortion? I wouldn’t even say its a matter of biological abortion versus financial abortion. I’d say its a matter of once the baby is born the mother seems to still have several options for giving up all rights and responsibilities while men don’t. If men have to put up with being told we should have kept it in our pants because we have no say in the mother’s role in the… Read more »
“Right well, first, the importance of whether a kid is biologically related (or not) is sort of lost on me. I mean, I understand the arguments people have; I comprehend it. But at the same time I don’t really agree with them or feel it…mostly because I will never be a biological father and I will never be a biological mother. To my mind, biology is over-rated. Well, in this case anyway…as a field of study I’m sure it’s awesome. :)” Well imagine instead of pregnancy we had stalks deliver babies. Now a baby gets delivered, guy says it’s your… Read more »
The main reason why women can get an abortion is not just because the woman does not want a child, but because an unwanted pregnancy violates her rights to her body. The reason child support exists is because it is extremely difficult to raise a child as a single parent without financial assistance. It’s essentially two jobs in one: being a breadwinner and taking care of the kid(s). It would be great if men could get a ‘financial abortion,’ but in a society like ours with no strong support system for single parents, this would have a negative impact on… Read more »
” would be great if men could get a ‘financial abortion,’ but in a society like ours with no strong support system for single parents, this would have a negative impact on the kid. ”
What kind of impact does it have on the kid when it is aborted? Why is a woman’s life more important then a child’s but a man’s life is less important?
” The reason child support exists is because it is extremely difficult to raise a child as a single parent without financial assistance.” Then a woman shouldn’t have a child if there is not a man who wishes to raise it with her. If a woman can have sex for sex’s sake and choose to abort i.e. destroy a growing life because she is not ready emotionally of financially and/or not in love with the father then that right should be accorded to the man as well via ‘financial abortion’. If 9 months of labor is considered ‘indentured servitude’, if… Read more »
“…but in a society like ours with no strong support system for single parents, this would have a negative impact on the kid.” The mother can abort the child, that is a permanent negative impact on the child but is justified because forcing her to carry the child to term is servitude. If the mother chooses to keep the child, any man identified as the father can be consigned to servitude for 18 years to support a child he has no choice concerning whether it is brought to term or not. This leads to a situation where servitude of men… Read more »
I don’t understand why anyone would be against paternity testing. When a baby is born, they should test the named father (even if they’re married) before he is put on the certificate. If she doesn’t know the father, they can put unknown. These tests aren’t very expensive are they?
There is nothing worse than a man raising a baby that’s not his. But it’s also horrible when a man denies children that are his because he’s pissed at the mother. Paternity testing fixes this. But I guess the state doesn’t want to pay for fatherless babies, but don’t they already?
“There is nothing worse than a man raising a baby that’s not his. ” I’m gonna be honest with you, I’m totally shocked that you said that. I have only heard one other woman in my life realize what a terrible crime that is to do to a man. “I don’t understand why anyone would be against paternity testing.” Odd as it may sound, from what I have read feminist lobbyist groups are against paternity testing. They say it isn’t in the best interests of the child. This is really fucked up because data collected just from blood samples show… Read more »
If it is acceptable for a man to raise a child that isn’t theirs then it is equally acceptable for a woman’s infant to be swapped at the hospital without her knowledge.
Men are not ATMs for any single mother to plunder because they now have some additional financial burdens. Your body your choice, my wallet, my choice.
Anybody with $200 can get a paternity test, without even having to explain why they want it, so get them already! Nobody is stopping you. Exactly which “feminist lobbying groups” have stated that they wish to outlaw paternity testing? I’m afraid I don’t know of any, and googling turns up nothing but anti-feminist websites saying this without any proof that it’s true. Maybe a few whacky women are against them, or a few trashy articles appeared by women taking this position, but they’re a long way from feminism my friend, and these MRM lies about imaginary battles aren’t helping because… Read more »
@ Songthe …. Nobody is stopping them? How about the women. Yeah, $200 isn’t any big deal especially compared to the costs for the next 18+ years. But mom has to agree to it which in most cases means court orders and costs. That $200 is now $???
There is nothing worse than a man raising a baby that’s not his. If a man raises a baby, it’s his. If he did so based on a lie that the mother told about where the DNA came from to make the baby, that’s a terrible lie and horrendous betrayal, but it’s an insult to adoptive fathers, fathers of donor sperm children, and fathers who willingly bond with and raise children who aren’t genetically theirs to rank the lack of a genetic link to a child as the worst thing that can happen to a man. Paternity testing determines whether… Read more »
Thank you, Marcus, for saying this.
Well said.
Thanks, Heather & Peter. I should also have pointed out that depending on the circumstances, the worst victim of lies about paternity is the child, especially if they’re unlucky enough to have a father who buys into the necessity of a genetic link, and bails upon finding out who the “real” father is. This is what infuriates me about the premise of those “Who’s the real father?” episodes on trash TV, with some woman who either lied or genuinely doesn’t know which of two men conceived a child with her, and a pair of men standing by poised to either… Read more »
….the worst victim of lies about paternity is the child, especially if they’re unlucky enough to have a father who buys into the necessity of a genetic link, and bails upon finding out who the “real” father is. Honestly I think if that father is bailing over the genetics then the child is better off. And frankly I don’t fault the man that left one bit, especially if there is deception on the part of the mother. If DNA doesn’t matter then why is it that when a man does bail after finding out the genetic truth people trip over… Read more »
I’m not saying the man must forgive the lie or be obligated to stay with the mother. I’m saying that if he loved and nurtured a kid long enough to bond before discovering the lie, the kid’s idea of who his Daddy is has nothing to do with DNA and legal paternity. The man’s feelings may have a lot to do with both, but if he suddenly cuts off all affection and responsibility for the kid, that makes the kid the biggest victim of the lie, in my opinion. There’s a lot of harm to go around in such a… Read more »
The man’s feelings may have a lot to do with both, but if he suddenly cuts off all affection and responsibility for the kid, that makes the kid the biggest victim of the lie, in my opinion. I can agree that the child is the victim in that situation. It’s just that I’ve gotten real tired of people using the harm to the child as front to put all the blame for the father leaving all on him, as if the mother is totally innocent. If people have such a problem with the child’s life being broken then where is… Read more »
I think part of the reason for the disconnect is this – physically the woman’s stuck with the kid. When a woman finds out she’s pregnant (unwanted, mind), she is forced into making a decision about abortion, adoption or raising the kid. Just from a purely practical standpoint…she can’t not make a decision, or put the decision off for any length of time, because doing so is in effect making a decision itself. And until fairly recently, adoption and abortion weren’t really viable options either. When a woman had an unwanted pregnancy, she was stuck with the kid. I think… Read more »
” What we need, really, is both a financial opt-out and better support for single parents.” Right. Someone has to pay for the woman’s decision. What we need is readily available a) contraception and b) free abortions. This way a woman who decides to be sexually active and a) take responsibility for the womb that she makes the very correct point is HER body so therefore is responsible for who goes inside her vagina and how readily that penis has access to her womb and b) can make the decision to abort without financial constraints. THEN we can add in… Read more »
It just bothers me that what you say here is somehow some sort of standard in which a man that doesn’t stay around he’s judged an asshole That’s not what I’m saying, or at least, not what I’m trying to say. It is a profound betrayal to a man, no argument there. What I’m saying is that if a dad leaves his child after discovering the lie, then from the child’s point of view, he’s a dad who left, not “oh well, he wasn’t my real father anyway”. I’m not saying the guy should tolerate the lie or forgive the… Read more »
Adpotive dads are just that … knowledge of the child not being his is no consern. No one said that dads who later find out that their biological child is not his, are truning away from the child they love. It’s a blow and a big one. I don’t know why anyone is minimizing how a man would feel. If I were to find out that either of my kids were not biologically mine, yeah … it would cause some real hurt. Would it change how I feel about them? Hell no. And what about the kids, how do ya… Read more »
” it would cause some real hurt. ” Some real hurt? I get that you by now have/would have developed a bond by emotionally and financially cared for another human being from birth. And of course you can’t turn that off but the levels of pain would be immense; the fact that the chid is not yours biologically is only one of them (putting aside for amount the devestation to the child and the rift in your relationship); the knowledge your wife cheated on you and kept a lie, i.e the fact that YOUR life was a lie, from you… Read more »
@Michael Russell … Thank you for taking this beyond my simple “real hurt” because what you said is true. Appears to be a total lack of empathy in many of the responses.
Thanks Tom. What really bothers me about the way women seem to trivialize this issue is that here we have millions of men ‘stepping up to the plate’ and ‘being good men’ by supporting the children and women they believe they have a responsibility to. That should be a good thing at least in the intent. But then when it turns out that good intent was based on fraudulent intentions that totally dismiss his rights and claims to his own life those same women are not up in arms. If someone expect you to act morally and does so only… Read more »
The crime is partly that he is denied the CHOICE, and becomes a father based on a lie. As soon as he is told he is the father, he’s pretty much forced to be responsible for that child at least financially (unless he can get a dna test but if he doesn’t have reason to not trust her then….goodbye choice). Personally if a woman did that to me, I’d never respect her AGAIN. It’d be complete n utter betrayal, made worse by the fact that I’d probably have a child I have bonded with so the relationship I had with… Read more »
Alright so obviously I’ve said my piece already…I’m not going to start in again. I will ask where the 10% comes from? If it’s a complete unknown, how the heck do you create a statistic for it?
Someone suggested from random blood samples, I’m hoping they’ll post a link. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/22/magazine/22Paternity-t.html?pagewanted=all Seems on this link 30% of those who SEEK a paternity test are not the biological father, but that wouldn’t be all fathers. ht tp://www.menshealth.com/best-life/fathers-and-kids-parenting-fraud 3.7% here for all fathers, still a significant amount of the population. “According to a 2005 U.S. Census Bureau report, there are 27,940,000 fathers nationwide with a child under 18. That means over a million guys out there are taking care of some other man’s kid.” ht tp://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/more-news/fathers-question-paternity/story-e6frf7kx-1111113384635 This says 3% as well. “Parentage Testing Program Unit – 1999 study by the… Read more »
So given that I think lying about parenting is wrong (just want that out there first thing), it appears that the human primate is just as prone to fooling around as any other primate. The only difference is, the rest of the primates don’t seem to have the cognition to track whose baby chimp is whose. Though it has been shown that some warring chimp tribes will kill infants. Other mammals do this too, to force the females into estrus. Really nice stuff, nature. Women cheat on men. Men cheat on women. The women cheating that get pregnant are cheating… Read more »
“especially if they’re unlucky enough to have a father who buys into the necessity of a genetic link, and bails upon finding out who the “real” father i” Buys into the genetic link? Unlucky enough? Bails upon finding out who the real father is? Way to totaly miscast the situatiuon: THe child is unlucky enough to have a mother who slept around with multiple men, lied to one about his being a parent who then stepped up to the plate and invested emotiojnal and financial support he could have spent elsewhere as he most certainly would not have done for… Read more »
“If a man raises a baby, it’s his. If he did so based on a lie that the mother told about where the DNA came from to make the baby, that’s a terrible lie and horrendous betrayal, but it’s an insult to adoptive fathers, fathers of donor sperm children, and fathers who willingly bond with and raise children who aren’t genetically theirs to rank the lack of a genetic link to a child as the worst thing that can happen to a man.” Astounding. How do men who CHOSE to adopt and WILLINGLY bond with and raise children’s get insulted… Read more »
This is a great list. Add mandatory paternity testing to #5 and we’re golden.
We should get tax payed vasectomies to boot!!
I am a 23 year old male. So far in my adult life i feel like i have acomplished a great deal i have a house, a car, a dog, my credit is great and my job is sweet. my parents divoriced when i was 8 and i still spent time with my father. my mom raised 3 kids working 2 jobs. and my dad just sent us checks. for the next 10 years. i still hear about the crap he went through to this day. point is im terrified to get married. i have been with a girl for… Read more »
on another note. I am mostly bothered by insurance rates. i just applied for a quote to see that i would pay, $200 a month with esurance. i changed my sex to female and got $140 a month. i never could understand statistics, if you grab 10 people from one building and another 10 from across the street it likely neither group is much the same. it is the one institution that is allowed to be prujudice to one sex over another and above all is required to drive in america. not saying make women pay more, just move my… Read more »
Obamacre does this for women’s healthcare costs.
Men, you aren’t going to get consequence-free sex. As appealing as it sounds, it just isn’t going to happen. If condoms feel bad, you’re not putting them on properly. If you have it in you to abandon a child because it was an accident, then you are exactly the kind of person who should get a vasectomy. Consequence-free sex doesn’t exist. Not for women, not for men, never has and never will. If you aren’t ready to accept that every single sexual encounter can possibly end with an HIV infection or unplanned children, you aren’t ready to have sex. There… Read more »
So your against women having the option of adoption then? Just checking.
Of course not. Sex doesn’t come without consequences. I will say it again and again. Becoming a mother is a possible outcome of sex. Along with that are awful situations like having to give your baby up for adoption. It’s a horrible consequence and I feel bad that her and possibly her partner would have to deal with that pain for the rest of their life, not to mention dealing with the 9-month-long potentially fatal medical condition and the permanent physical and mental changes that possibly damage the mother and those around her. I know I couldn’t do the adoption… Read more »
Here’s the thing, ideally everyone (men and women) would realize that sex has potential consequences. Also, ideally, we’d have a really great system set up for when people make mistakes. Abortion would be viewed as a viable option without such huge social stigma associated with it. We’d have financial support for single parents, so that they wouldn’t end up having to perform two roles and work extra hard to do both well. We’d have an adoption system that didn’t result in kids falling through the cracks and growing up in group homes. And giving up a child for adoption wouldn’t… Read more »
Not sure about the US, but if anything in Ireland the religious and social pressure has been to give the child up. The idea of single motherhood being acceptable and workable is a new thing, years back they used to effectively turn them into slaves in the magdalene laundries.
Giving a child up is a hellish thing to have to do, but if someone decides they cannot give that child the life they deserve then they shouldn’t be forced to try.
My experience in the U.S. is that the pressure is to keep it…along with pressure to stay with the bio-father.
Yeah, I’ve heard about all kinds of weird programs to force the couple to marry. As if that’s not a recipe for resentment and disaster.
” We’d have financial support for single parents, so that they wouldn’t end up having to perform two roles and work extra hard to do both well. ” Rigggght. So the same society that shouldn’t interfere with people’s sexual choices and stay out of their bedrooms should work part of each year to support the children they have from that sex? If you don’t have a partner who wants a baby you shouldn’t have the baby. Period. If your reply is that if you don’t want a baby you shouldn’t have sex then you don’t believe in abortion. If your… Read more »
I am sure pills for men will be a game changer. And lo and behold when a pregnancy happens anyway you will know for sure what women have been trying to tell you- that NO form of birth control except sterilization is 100% effective. Most women seeking abortion were using birth control. I fail to see how having a pregnancy is proof that women are irresponsible. It doesn’t get much bigger responsibiltiy than raising a child. And most women pay for their own abortions if my friends are any sample. Sex makes babies, whether you want it to or not.… Read more »
“If you aren’t ready to accept that every single sexual encounter can possibly end with an HIV infection or unplanned children, you aren’t ready to have sex.” So I really like the sentiment in your comment, I just feel the need to correct you slightly. A more accurate sentence would read: …can possibly end with an STI (including HIV) or an unplanned pregnancy… HIV isn’t transmitted via oral sex unless you have an open cut or sore in your mouth. Exact statistics aren’t available, but even when you take into account the possibility of open sores/cuts, it’s wicked unlikely to… Read more »
Agreed. I meant that of the possible negative results of having sex, HIV and children are the most severely life-changing due to their permanency. I can’t help but wonder if this issue in the men’s movement is a roundabout result of the abstinence-only “sex-ed” falsehoods of the 2000s. It seemed in the 90s, with its absolutely comprehensive sex-ed (due to the AIDS scare still prevalent), things were greatly improving with regard to unplanned pregnancies, using protection, communicating before having sex, etc. They were definitely getting better with teaching kids how to deal with the sexual realities of the world. After… Read more »
Well, abstinence-only wasn’t everywhere, thank goodness. I taught sex-ed in NYC through a program that taught in Chicago, San Francisco and New York (and now probably other cities as well). We definitely weren’t abstinence-only. Though, yes, I do believe that abstinence-only sex-ed has caused more trouble. Though, to be honest, sex-ed isn’t exactly a traditional part of the education system in any form, really. I mean, not comprehensively…not until relatively recently. I don’t know if the desire to think of sex and consequence-free is really part of the men’s movement so much as it’s something a lot of people wish.… Read more »
No it’s a result of feminism promising gender equality and not delivering.
IF a woman can walk away from her child with no obligations (adoption)
THEN a man should be able to walk away from his child with no obligations
That’s feminist theory 101 – EQUAL RIGHTS
@ songthe i think you read my opinion with the wrong undertone. i am saying i would love to have a child. in fact i feel i would be a great father. however, i have no control over the decision in which is ultimately hers. all im saying is how i want a little more input in the decision. i would support her in whatever decision she makes.but i am prevented from having an impact on that decision due to it being her body. my argument is if it takes 2 people to “create” this child why is the aftermath… Read more »
At some point in the future, I’m really hoping that the only options aren’t raising the child, abortion or adoption. Wouldn’t it be awesome if the woman could say “no I don’t want the child, and no I’m not going to give up my body for 9 months.” But equally the man could say “right then let’s use an artificial womb to gestate the fetus and I’ll take care of it.” Then both parties would have equal say in the matter, but no one’s bodily autonomy would be in jeopardy. Unfortunately, we’re not there yet. So when it comes to… Read more »
The government (or even the father) shouldn’t take over control of a woman’s body for 9 months and force her to remain pregnant.
But it’s okay for the mother to decide the father’s role in that child’s life for the next 18 years though right?
(I know you don’t think that but it seems those that don’t think that are in the minority.)
Well I don’t…but also it’s a bit of apples and oranges, Danny. One (abortion) is about bodily autonomy. The other (a father’s role) is about control over your own life. Both are important issues, yes…but they aren’t directly comparable.
A better comparison would be the way that, back in the day, fathers were the ones with all the legal control over their kids.
WE ALSO WANT AWAY WITH THE MALE ROLE. SO THAT WONT WORK.
Well, first, could you not write a post in all caps? It’s like the internet-version of yelling at me. Thanks. 🙂
I’m also not quite sure what you’re responding to here. In my comment, my use of the term ‘father’s role’ wasn’t meant as a cultural reference but as a quote from Danny’s comment. I literally meant the role of the bio-father…whatever that role might be.
reset pc … no more caps… yay
i guess that’s one of the fall backs from debate over text. it shares the undertone of the reader.
i can own up to that. sorry
A better comparison would be the way that, back in the day, fathers were the ones with all the legal control over their kids. Fair enough but for some reason there are plenty of people that would say such control in the hands of fathers was unfair. But when mothers have it its all good I suppose? Well I don’t…but also it’s a bit of apples and oranges, Danny. One (abortion) is about bodily autonomy. The other (a father’s role) is about control over your own life. Both are important issues, yes…but they aren’t directly comparable. But even still there… Read more »
“How does being the one to carry the child for nine months grant the mother rights over the father’s role?” We’re sort of back to the discussion about how, purely physically, she’ll end up with more responsibility (ignoring society etc). She’ll give birth to the kid, and if she’s not a total ass-hat, she’ll be stuck caring for the kid. There is a baby and she can’t physically leave it. And so then society, adoption, abortion, etc etc…what I said in my other comment. 🙂 Which doesn’t make it all okay or all right…but I think it does help to… Read more »
“Fair enough but for some reason there are plenty of people that would say such control in the hands of fathers was unfair. But when mothers have it its all good I suppose?” And see here I think is where the problem stems from traditional gender norms. Back in the day (particularly from the 1950s onward though it didn’t start there) in the U.S., we created this false idea that men aren’t emotional. That sort of expands on to the expectations of a father. The assumption is that they don’t care…or at least they don’t care as much as mothers.… Read more »
@Heather @jean @songthe we are not fighting you. as men in this particular moment in time we are unhappy with the laws and decisions made by others that puts our lives at risk. I am am clearly aware women want the same. a woman’s body is hers and hers only. if a man and a woman decide to have sex and a egg is fertilized. and if there is any debate, i feel an extra step would be necessary, especially when it impacts the lives of both partners. if a woman or the man wants to keep it, then keep… Read more »
Wait a second…how is court-ordered abortion or adoption okay? In your list, number 1 I can understand. Numbers 2 and 3…no. How would it be okay for the court to come in and tell the woman that she has to get an abortion or give the kid up for adoption if she wants to keep the kid?
SORRY IT WAS AN OFF HAND PARAGRAPH
IF A WOMAN DECIDES ON 2 OR 3 THEN A MAN WOULD HAVE TO DO THE FOLLOWING.
PS MY CAPS BUTTON IS STUCK IN LOL
Right okay, I get what you’re saying, I think. Here’s the problem with bringing all of these cases to court…well first the U.S. court system is already impacted. More importantly, though, is the fact that it’s a slow process…and decisions regarding pregnancy and children are sort of time-sensitive. What happens to the kid if the courts haven’t figured everything out within the 9 months of pregnancy? Is the mother stuck supporting the kid on her own for that time? Is it put into foster care? (That would be horrible). So far all the ‘answers’ I’ve seen for this problem don’t… Read more »
DOUBLE POST
IF SHE FEELS SHE WANTS TO KEEP IT THEN ANY OF THE 3 OPTIONS ARE AVAILABLE TO HER, WHICH EVER FEELS MORE COMPELLING.
NOW YOU KNOW HOW WE FEEL WHEN PEOPLE MAKE DECISIONS FOR US 😛
i didn’t mean for my last comment to sound rude if it did to you. i just feel as opposed to arguing everyone’s point of view here we can come up with a plan that benefits both parties. unfortunately the only ones that seem official to me is court. hahaha pretty soon you will have to sign a contract before i put myself into you i need you to fill out some paperwork. (kill the mood) lol
“. The government (or even the father) shouldn’t take over control of a woman’s body for 9 months and force her to remain pregnant.”
But can take control of a man’s body for 18 years and force him to labor to support the baby.
“If condoms feel bad, you’re not putting them on properly.”
Ever wrapped your clitoris in latex and then had sex? Didn’t think so.
I apologize, my last comment was a littlr harsh.
“nobody on earth gets to have consequence-free sex, regardless of gender or laws.” There are consequences and there are consequences. Having sex and then having to have an abortion pales in comparison to having sex and having the entire course of your life changed, the options open to you for the better part of your adult life. Calling each a ‘consequence’ is a cop-out. Women DO get consequence free sex because they have a choice over their entire future. If you are going to insist that your womb is yours then YOU are 100% responsible for what goes into it… Read more »
Try the new Skin’s/skyns condoms, tough and thinwalled, they may help with sensitivity.
I would prefer winning an argument and get a vasectomy anyway as simply having that right regardless of my wife’s feelings. Ask the doc if he’s a surgeon or a preacher. If a woman can have an abortion a man can have male elected surgery. I’ll go to church later. Get the scalpel.
Laurent
I agree with most everything here. However, true feminism as I understand it is being overshadowed and drowned out by the militant anti-male feminists. Those I don’t consider true feminists, but female supremacists. Certainly an unfortunate side effect.
All in all, if we could fight for all of this, and even out feminism the way it was intended to be, it would be much better across the globe.
I agree. I consider myself a feminist, and in the feminist groups I’m a part of, we have numerous men. I suppose “humanist” would be a better term for us, because everyone in my circle talks about masculinity and it’s problems as well. I don’t think these issues should be about one gender or the other: it’s about EVERYONE getting a fair shot at living the life they deserve. MRAs have some valid points, but they do have some very outspoken members that scare me a little. I can understand how some feminists would scare them too. Another thing to… Read more »
The unjust power of women derives from their electoral majority. At the same time, women’s right to vote was and has never been linked to mandatory military service, the prime duty of citizenship, which only men must perform. I deem the right to vote for women without the concomitant identical duty towards involuntary military service the number one men’s rights issue. Along with this, the tyrannical feminist state results from this feminist electoral majority. The same represents a definitive threat to the continued existence of the state, also. Men should realize that electoral representation for women without ,women accepting the… Read more »
Conscription as an institution had been in use since the Civil War but was discontinued in 1973. The Conscription Act passed in 1917- 3 years before the 19th Amendment gave women suffrage. That female electoral majority is so sneaky that it got men drafted *before women could vote*? I’d be the first to agree that it’s unfair that only men can be (hypothetically) drafted, but it’s pretty hard to specifically blame women for that one. The problem is the patriarchal system that forces both genders into rigid and unhealthy defined roles- and hey! Guess what feminism is trying to take… Read more »
Number 10 should have been number one. All of the other issues on this list were probably cause by the male gender role. I think a big problem with the male gender role is that it views men as powerful, and we all want power, so this actually gives men incentive to abide by an oppressive gender role.