Marianne Cassidy thinks being a female nerd is trendy. Except when that’s all guys see in her.
I am a female nerd.
Apparently.
I cannot tell you when it became trendy to be a nerd, but it definitely happened at some point in the last ten years. I think it was probably around the same time that all the hip kids started wearing big thick-rimmed glasses (actual vision problems optional) and the pop culture value of retro videogames, superheroes and old school sci-fi suddenly sky-rocketed.
This was a strange experience for me. American TV shows taught me that nerds are bespectacled, calculator-toting individuals who stammer and have severe co-ordination issues. During my teenage years, I was stoically silent on the topic my nerdy pursuits – my Elfwood account, my Pokémon cards, my attempts to learn Elvish – knowing that to advertise would only draw ridicule. However, during my college career, I began slowly to realise that these interests carried currency among my peers. “Wow, you are such a nerd!” was no longer the social equivalent of being guillotined; it was a compliment. This was a fortunate turn of events for me personally, because it allowed me talk intensely about my niche interests for hours and hours without risking exile from all future parties.
At this point, it is probably useful to note that the niche interests that qualify as “nerdy” among my generation are fairly narrow. They are also, thanks to the high value of their social stock, no longer so niche as they once were. By and large, to be deemed a nerd in the trendiest sense of the word, you need an in-depth or encyclopaedic knowledge science-fiction or fantasy as it manifests itself in literature, games, films, television, comics, cartoons and online media, as well as having a wide base of general knowledge pertaining to science and technology. Knowing about Trollface also helps. Wood-whittling or world music could also be considered niche interests, but because they do not fall within the aforementioned realm of popular culture, they do not qualify as nerd-chic.
Gradually, I began to notice that the happy accident of my being a “complete nerd” was no longer merely socially acceptable; it was impressive, particularly among my male peers. Sometimes, it was more than impressive. Sometimes, it was a point of attraction. Often, it was the main point of attraction. I have been asked out on the strength of my comic book knowledge more than once. My ability to hold my own in a conversation about hard science-fiction has earned me more male attention than a push-up bra ever could. “I’ve never met a girl like you before,” a guy once told me, in response to an incoherent rant about the artistic merit of videogames. This is a real thing that someone said to me, even though it sounds like a nerdgasm, a trope that I thought only existed on TV. While I have never deliberately played the nerd card to impress a guy, I cannot deny that my particular set of interests have served me well in this respect. Especially since attempts at flirting are probably on par with those of a drunken Batman (lots of lurking and glaring, but not nearly as mysterious or intriguing as I think it is.)
There is a similar dynamic at play when men are impressed with women who know the basics of plumbing or engine maintenance. Videogames, comics and their ilk are traditionally male pastimes. Historically, girls who pursued them were considered weird and decidedly unfeminine. Now that these pastimes have transcended into the realm of cool, and since cool has little regard for gendered boundaries, it seems perfectly fine, and even desirable, for a girl to proudly display her nerd credentials. This is evident in the fact that the nerd girl has been cropping a lot recently in films and television, usually as a supporting character, as in Fanboys, but occasionally as the main protagonist as in Juno or New Girl. She comes in the form of a sexy tomboy, a sexy scientist, or a more traditional nerd in need of a sexy makeover. This quriky girl is accepted as one of the guys; she’s whip-smart, loves Star Wars/Lord of the Rings/Dungeons & Dragon, she swears and she makes “guy” jokes. Crucially, she is low maintenance; she never wants to go shopping or worries about her nails, and she makes no stressful demands of her male counterpart when it comes to silly things like anniversaries and personal hygiene. She is the polar opposite of the boring girlfriend that Sony was using to advertise the PS2 a while back.
In this, I have identified the root of my discomfort. Obviously, this idealised nerd girl does not actually exist, in the same way the gorgeous preppy bimbo and the bad-ass femme fatale do not exist. Being called a nerd makes me uncomfortable, and I have feeling that this is at least partially Hollywood’s fault. Sometimes I worry that when a guy hears me talking about something nerdy, he starts to tune out my actual opinions on the subject and instead concentrates on – as a friend of mine so succinctly put it – “Great! We can play Xbox and then we can bang! She’s perfect!” I worry that the nerdy girl has become a new stereotype of femininity, a new category of wish-fulfilment that has no bearing on reality. If this is the case, the advantages of being a female nerd are just as shallow and decorative as those created by a short skirt and smoky eye make-up.
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It is currently cool to be a nerd, but being cool is even more fleeting than being physically beautiful; I do not want it to be all someone sees in me and I certainly do not want to found a relationship on it. I have no problem if a guy notices me because of my chest but if he can’t take his eyes off it after a few minutes of conversation, I am going to walk away. I think the same applies to female nerd syndrome.
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These suspicions are confirmed when I see that many men (and some women) think girls are allowed like nerdy things in the same way they are “allowed” to fix cars or play in metal bands. All well and good, as long as they are sexy while they do it and do not threaten to challenge or emasculate the men who dominate these fields. It’s awesome when a woman reads comics, as long as she doesn’t start complaining about the generally awful portrayal of female superheroes throughout the industry. It’s definitely hot when a girl wants to play Halo or Gears of War or any other formulaic testosterone-fuelled first-person shooter, but it’s kind of a turn-off when she wishes that videogame developers take a more unisex approach to design and marketing. Time and time again, I have seen women run into brick walls of male privilege when they raise important issues about gender and equality within their chosen nerdy field. The old who-cares-girls-don’t-even-play-videogames/read-comics/understand-spaceships argument is quick to raise its ugly and irrelevant head the minute a woman offers an opinion that highlights gender disparities. We are welcome in the boys club provide we acknowledge that is unquestionably male space and kicking up a fuss about it is actually not sexy, so you should just stop.
On a personal level, I know that being a nerd does not make me unique or exceptional. It is not a measure of my intelligence, nor does it tell a guy anything about me except that my dad is a science-fiction fanatic and I happened to grow up on a street where everyone had a game console. Being able to speak three languages or complete a triathlon is unique and exceptional. I can’t do either of those things but, for my part, I would prefer if a guy was impressed because I made him laugh or because I have intelligent opinions on important things, not because I can quote Penny Arcade at length or beat the Water Temple blindfolded.
I have been called a nerd many times, so maybe I am one. Nerd is often where I start if you get talking to me at a party, but it is most definitely not where I end. I am a theatre practitioner, a photographer, a reader, a runner, a drinker, a cat-lover, a nail-biter, a shower-singer, a writer and a lot of other stuff in between. It is currently cool to be a nerd, but being cool is even more fleeting than being physically beautiful; I do not want it to be all someone sees in me and I certainly do not want to found a relationship on it. I have no problem if a guy notices me because of my chest but if he can’t take his eyes off it after a few minutes of conversation, I am going to walk away. I think the same applies to female nerd syndrome.
Take your eyes off the All Your Bases shirt. I’m up here.
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photo: cristiano_betta at Flickr
About Marianne Cassidy
This is not intended as an attack on the original post, as I do on the whole agree with it, but rather as an honest question to delve into the nuances of this issue:
What is the difference between a guy being attracted to a girl “because she is a nerd” and a guy being attracted to a girl because intelligence is sexy, and nerdism is generally associated with intellect? My girlfriend is brilliant, and that is one of the reasons I love her, and I frequently think of her as a nerd. I guess the question is really, at what point does appreciation of any quality (be it physical or mental) become objectification and fetishization? And further, is that point the same point at which it becomes unhealthy for both sides, or is a bit of consensual objectification appropriate so long as it is done with respect? And how is that respect expressed or defined?
I think what she was talking about wasn’t her relationship with the personal qualities of “female” and “nerd” but rather they complete stereotype of “female nerd”. The stereotype has a full set of specific qualities and constitutes a full fictional character. Inevitably any actual female nerd is going to be different from the female nerd stereotype the people they meed have in their head. Sometimes people are really attached to their stereotypes and are unsettled when you don’t meet their expectations.
So the way I read this is that you are saying that the issue is less one of gender roles and more one of creating irrational and incomplete models and expecting romantic/sexual partners to live up to them? I could get behind that, I think it’s a problem people have in lots of settings, not just relationships.
Yes! This is definitely the underlying point of this article, though you’ve just articulated way better in a couple of lines. All your questions are relevant, and I grappled with most of them while writing this article. I came to the unhelpful conclusion that all the lines are blurry and that it really sort of goes on a case by case basis, of what makes you uncomfortable vs. what doesn’t.
Also, Jill’s comment pretty much nails it. Objectification is an inevitability, it exists, we all do it, and a certain amount of it is perfectly natural and healthy. I think the best way to avoid crossing the line into unhealthy is to be aware of it and discuss, which I guess was my motivation for writing about it where I see it, in the specific case of gender roles in nerd culture.
You look like a someone from Ballinasloe. You’ve got that twisted culchie nose and rotten Irish teeth and you look like you need a good wash.
The concept of objectification comes from psychoanalytic theory. The idea is that when we are interacting with other people, we are actually interacting with an “object” we have created in our mind that reflects our own personal needs, expectations and experiences. In that sense, everyone else is an “object” to everyone else. It is inevitable. If you treat someone as a “sex object” that means you only see them as a projection of your sexual needs. That makes it difficult for you to see them as a fully real human being separate from your own needs. I suppose you can objectify someone for any reason, not just sex, but what that means (in my mind) is that you are exclusively focused on some aspect of that person which meets whatever needs you may have. It is a self-centered way of relating to another person.
For example, my mom was very invested in my academic success, to an unhealthy degree I believe, because of her own issues. I would say she treated me as an object in that sense. It caused a lot of difficulties in our relationship because I felt that was all she cared about. She liked bragging to her friends about how smart I was and conversely she became angry and depressed when I didn’t do well.
On the other hand, my boyfriend loves smart women and he loves the fact that I’m smart. But I don’t feel that’s unhealthy objectification because he doesn’t make me feel like our whole relationship is riding on my smartness. Being smart is something we have in common that let’s us enjoy our time together. He also loves having sex but I don’t feel like I’m “just” a sex object to him and nothing else.
I suppose what I’m saying is that there is unhealthy objectification and then there is the “objectification” we all do because, if we are honest, a lot of being in relationships IS about getting our own needs met, whatever those are. But that doesn’t mean we don’t care about other people or truly appreciate them as human beings. That’s the key, IMO.
As well-written and thoughtful as this column is, I find myself agreeing with some of the commenters above that this is really sort of a “non-problem,” or at least not a problem that’s being examined from the right perspective. Of course no one wants to be objectified, to be reduced to one or two details in a whole panoply of qualities that makes us complex, interesting and hopefully attractive beings. But (1) is it really a huge demoralizing quandary when someone detects that you share something in common with them and wants to know more about you? And (2) are you really complaining that someone thinks that qualities you thought were unattractive are the opposite of that?
As far as “female nerd” cliches go, you’ve managed to define them pretty well, albeit in essentially as reductive a way as you would castigate a male purveyor of this cliche for doing. But the reason that almost any person talks to anyone they’re interested in is because they’re looking for something in common – and when basement-dwelling geeks meet a young woman who speaks their particular lexicon of geekery, why shouldn’t they speak to you on that basis? A first impression is just that – a first impression – and if it’s positive, then it would hopefully encourage them to see what else that person likes, is into, is “about.” And if they’re not interested in your other qualities, that’s unfortunate – but that’s dating. Whether you’re Sir Mix-A-Lot’s wet dream or a Dungeon Mistress. Not to mention, wouldn’t you RATHER have a man who’s attracted to what you say and think than one who’s only interested in your bodily proportions?
In terms of the larger cultural reverberations of the acceptance of female geeks, leading to the creation of a new female stereotype, well, welcome to the same world that stereotypes all other women, and men, and people of different races, religious beliefs, etc. It’s the same world that expects men to be cultured, sensitive, manly, rugged, erudite, tough, etc. (And I’m not complaining, just pointing out that there are plenty of expectations to go around.) But it’s not just unfortunate that a person would believe in these cliches, it’s unrealistic – and that’s on them, not you, and not me. Any person who thinks another person is only one thing is probably an all-around idiot, but being kinder, they seem to have myopic perceptions of what human beings are capable of, and more accurately, what they’re likely to be. And unfortunately, the onus is on YOU to pick and choose from this phalanx of suitors that’s beating down your door to determine who truly cares about you for you, and who cares only about your dexterity with a Wii controller.
By most standards, me and my girlfriend both are movie nerds, and that is certainly something that we share in common in our long-term relationship, among many, many other things. But the reason our relationship works is not because we like the same things, but we like things the same way, even if they’re different. And discovering (or uncovering) a person who shares your attitudes about things that are important to you – not your opinions, or even your specific interests – is, in my opinion, the standard which I think most people seeking relationships should seek to fulfill. We share a passion for the things we’re each passionate about, and respect the other’s interests even if we don’t share the actual interest. But did I first get excited when she talked to me about some movie or album she liked that I liked too? Probably. But I also met a lot of people in my past that liked that movie or album, but we didn’t share enough meaningful things in common for those relationships to continue.
So yeah, movie characters cannot encompass the entire depths of a person’s substance – and in the context of a story, they probably shouldn’t, because if they did they would seem psychotic. And Juno or Zooey Deschanel or whoever/ whatever else may have created the perception in some dumb nerds’ minds that there are girls out there who live to love what they do and ask for nothing in return. But I’d argue they’re actually much more interesting than the dream girls of decades past, and quite frankly, their increasing appearance in pop culture is a major signifier that female identities are actually multiplying in mainstream perception, not narrowing. So what people have to do is be the person they’re proudest of and happiest with, and then find a person who accepts that. And I’m not suggesting that you’re doing this, but if you’re planing to rely on pop culture or mainstream attitudes to get around to accepting all of your wonderful qualities that you have yet to reveal, you’re going to have a long, long wait. So go out and be the best version of you you can be, and be open enough to accept the (respectful) advances of a person who’s intrigued by you and wants to know more, and then be discriminating enough to figure out when they are or aren’t right for you. And all of that applies to both men and women. Because to identify yourself as a nerd, and then say that nerds are now considered attractive, and then complain that you don’t get the kind of attention you want – which in this case is interest in the nerdy stuff that you actually like – falls pretty squarely into a “non-problem” category, or at the very MOST, a problem that pretty much everybody has.
Hi Todd! Thanks for this comment, it’s really well thought-out and I’m going to try to address all the point you make as best I can. Fundamentally, I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said.
Firstly, I completely agree this is a non-problem. In fact, I think I’ve failed as a writer in some respect here, because I really was not trying to frame my thoughts as a “problem,” nor did I intend to be come-off as complaining or whining. Like I said, being a nerd has served me well in a social context, and particularly when it comes to talking to guys. I wrote this article in response number of encounters that made me feel uncomfortable and as an honest attempt to identify why I felt this way. The only paragraph where I feel like I’m actually complaining or identifying a real problem is when I highlight the huge gender issues rampant in certain nerd-centric industries, which I stand by as being a completely legitimate concern. So 1) No, it’s not a huge demoralizing quandry, I never claimed that it was and 2) I had no intention of complaining about anything and I am sorry I failed to get that across.
This also possibly wasn’t clear, but I feel that “female nerd” cliches I identified are exclusive to film/television/etc, and that they have no bearing on real life. I would not castigate a man for identifying these cliches, provided he was also identifying them in popular culture and not applying them to real women, as applying cliches to real people is a generally unhelpful exercise.
I am well aware that there is a vast pantheon of stereotypes that apply to all genders, races, ages, nationalities and creeds. I am aware that stereotyping is an inevitability in most movies because, as you pointed out, you cannot encompass every aspect of a person’s psyche in 1 hour and 20 minutes of screen time. I absolutely agree that stereotyping is a ubiquitous aspect of popular culture that affects pretty much everyone. In spite of this (or perhaps because of this) I think it’s useful and worthwhile to discuss specific instances of it, no matter how trivial the context. Stereotypes perpetuated in popular culture do have subtle but tangible influences on the people who consume them, and no one of any gender is totally exempt from this effect. Therefore, I don’t think it’s ever obsolete to discuss how stereotypes are helpful, harmful or otherwise relevant to how we interact with each other. Since you’re a movie nerd, I don’t doubt that you have a broader and more comprehensive grasp of the “female nerd” stereotype than me, and I agree with your point that the dawn of the female nerd is ” a major signifier that female identities are actually multiplying in mainstream perception, not narrowing.” I never thought about it like that before and it will certainly influence how I view such characters in the future.
If I’m complaining that I don’t get the kind of attention I want, it’s because I don’t like being objectified. Because no one does. In this case, is it largely harmless? Absolutely. Is it a problem? No, not really. Is it actually pretty silly? Yeah, I’d say so. I mean, it’s a piece about nerd culture, I’m not looking for a Pulitzer. I don’t really understand the thinking that evaluates a piece of writing based the gravity of the “problem” it presents, because as far as I’m concerned, we could play the More Important Things game for hours and everyone’s issues would be completely undermined and everyone would have a lot of perspective and no one would get anywhere.
Anyway. Objectification, like stereotyping, doesn’t really care about gender barriers, so I feel like identifying and discussing specific cases is a useful activity. Open dialogue about gender is rarely harmful (I’m struggling to think of an example where it might be.) I understand that the onus is on me to identify men who pay attention to me because they feel like my surface interests indicate that I’m an intelligent multi-faceted person who they’d like to get to know better vs. men who presume that because I play videogames, I must also hate shopping. And of course, objectification is a two-way street. I fully acknowledge that if I don’t want a project the female nerd cliche when I’m meeting new people, I should probably stop talking about comics at some point. Similarly, I know it’s my prerogative to walk away from situations that make me uncomfortable. As I state in the last few lines of this article, I have no problem doing that.
“How we are perceived vs. how we perceive ourselves vs. how we want to be perceived” is a universal issue that most people deal with on a daily basis. In this very specific case, I noticed a gap in perception and I wanted to talk about it. Predictably, some people relate to it and some people don’t. Ultimately, I feel like the underlying issue is objectification and how it comes into play in nerd culture. I enjoyed writing it and I stand by my views, but equally I can see why someone might think I shouldn’t have bothered. In any case, I’ve almost written another article in response your comment, so once again thank you for your perspective, you really made me question why I wrote this.
First of all, thanks for an equally thoughtful reply. I am certainly aware of how horrible commenters can be, or even when they aren’t, how their comments can erode your patience and even sometimes intellect, and it’s always good to have a constructive conversation about, well, any subject.
In terms of the piece, I didn’t mean to suggest that the piece was just or “just” a complaint – I think it’s a well-articulated and well-mounted argument against stereotyping even characteristics that a lot of people both find flattering to them and attractive to others. Ultimately, I think my main point was that stereotyping isn’t good, but it’s important to note that independent of that generalized portrayal in movies and on TV, a first impression isn’t necessarily the same thing as being stereotyped – it’s being drawn in by qualities which, almost by definition are superficial but appealing. And it’s incumbent upon both parties to probe further (not a euphemism) and get to what else makes up that person, and then of course if those qualities are ones that you find appealing as a whole.
Nevertheless, again I thought the piece was well-written and thoughtful, and I’m happy if I could have provided any additional food for thought as you’re examining a big, and indeed, important issue.
Marianne
Thank you for the article, regarding the cliche’s you mentioned, I can’t help but feeling that this is more in the nature of human communication and storytelling than sexism against women. TV (and literature in general) typically consists of a few core characters and a whole lot of cardboard cut out background pices whom the audiance can easily identify, understand and predict, but even the central characters are “dressed” with cliches allowing the audiance to grasp them from the get go, rather than spend an entire episode detailing their motivations and desires.
I can see how this reinforces stereotypes and presents major problems for society but I’m not so sure its really avoidable when human beings spin a yarn. “Real women” are far too complex to depict in a half hour time slot.
Hello Marianne,
My name is Lindsay Spaulding and I am currently casting King of the Nerds, a new show celebrating geeks and nerds of all kinds. The show is Competition based, designed to showcase the passions and knowledge of men and women between the ages of 18 and 30, as they compete to win a huge grand prize! King of the Nerds is an opportunity for self proclaimed nerds to put their intellect and resume out there in front of millions.
The show will be hosted by the original UBER NERDS from “Revenge of the Nerds”! We are looking for mathematicians, scientists, programmers, inventors, puzzle-masters, engineers, gamers, comic book fanatics, movie buffs, trekkies, techies, chess masters, role players, you name it. We are looking for people who live and breathe their passions who are competitive and want to showcase their talents and win BIG! And because this is TV, we of course want passionate and proud nerds with personality!
For more information, please take a look at the attached flier and also please check out our website and CNN article.
WEBSITE: nerdking.net
CNN ARTICLE: http://geekout.blogs.cnn.com/2011/10/13/king-of-the-nerds-eh/
Please let me know if you have any questions and I look forward to hearing from you. Also, any and all recommendations for candidates or suggestions of who to speak with would be greatly appreciated. If you could blog, tweet, facebook, google + this, it would be absolutely amazing!!
Thanks and have a wonderful day.
Best,
–
Lindsay Spaulding
Casting Director
King of the Nerds
o: 310.360.2347
t: @HelloImLindsay
e: lindsaycasting@gmail.com
w: nerdking.net
PRESS: http://geekout.blogs.cnn.com/2011/10/13/king-of-the-nerds-eh/
Todd, I’m going to have to disagree with you on some of the points. Not because I think you’re wrong, but because I think we’re on different pages. There is a vast difference between being excited to share your interests with another person– many solid relationships are based on this– and what is being brought up in this article. I think in this case, we’re not talking about the guys that enjoy going to Comic Con with their girlfriend. We’re not talking about the guys who love their girlfriends, in *addition* to their passion for “nerd” stuff. We’re talking about the abstract, fetishized idea of the hot female nerd. And yes, the word “hot” has to be in there, because guys are pining for that sexy, svelte geek goddess, not the homely girl huddled in the back corner of Anime Expo.
In the fantasy, the perfect female nerd companion “gets” him. She’s content watching him play Halo, content hanging out with him and his buddies while they roll dice, and will gladly bang him at the end of the day– possibly in cosplay. We’re talking about the fantasy of dating a hot girl who’s essentially just one of his bros, with a rack.
There’s a prevailing stereotype in our society that girly-girls are shallow and high-maintenance. They shop, they gab, and they spend all (your) money on clothes and makeup. Is it an unfair stereotype? Sure, but it still exists, and it exists strongly. From the way my guy friends talk about it, nerd women are considered to be a lot more like men. And thus, they must also want the same things as men– casual, low-key relationships, getting drunk with the boys, going to the comic book store on release day. As the fantasy goes, they don’t care about clothes, but they’ll clean up nice. They don’t care about their appearance, but secretly, they’re super hot girls waiting for a makeover. They’re nerdy diamonds in the rough, waiting to sexy up for the lucky paladin that discovers them.
I am NOT saying that all guys are shallow. And I’m certainly not saying that there aren’t plenty of stable, loving relationships between male and female nerds. I am merely pointing out this recently popularized fantasy of female nerds.
A few months ago, FilmDrunk posted a video called “Hot women pandering to nerds.” (http://filmdrunk.uproxx.com/2011/05/mash-upsupercut-hot-women-pandering-to-nerds) It got a fair amount of flak from self-proclaimed female nerds who thought the article was insinuating that there was no such thing as a female nerd. But the writer makes a very valid point that in recent years, “nerd” has become as much of a shallow checkpoint on a list as “blond” or “thin.” Why should women have to prove that they’re nerds in order to impress men? Would men like them less if they quietly read Gernsback in their bedrooms, instead of chortling like Chewbacca in public?
Maybe the writer wrote this particular post in a way that presents the female nerd fantasy as a non-problem. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t real. Whether or not it’s a problem is subjective– that it exists is much more fascinating.
Tangentially, I’m reminded of a piece that Patton Oswalt wrote for Wired (http://www.wired.com/magazine/2010/12/ff_angrynerd_geekculture/all/1), in which he calls for a moratorium on Geek Culture. It’s a fun read.
It is not male privilege; it is simply them protecting their space and their interests. You would not like someone to come into your space and start politicizing every little detail that comes to mind. How long would it take before you lost it if a person who joined a Lord of the Rings fan club constantly talked about the lack of non-white in Middle Earth? How long would it take before you lost it if a person who commented on a feminist blog constantly talked about male domestic and sexual violence victims?
The reason why you get the negative response is because you essentially made it about you. If male nerds and geeks wanted to talk about women’s issues, they would be talking about them. These are spaces for them to discuss their interests, and it is rude and arrogant to go into their space, trash their interests, and then telling them what they should like and why they should like it.
I think the other thing people need to keep in mind is that a lot how women go about “raising important issues” smacks of the same bully tactic male nerds and geeks get subjected to, particularly from females. It comes across as another way of humiliating and chastising them for their interests.
Wow.
It sounds like you must have really run into some real feminazis at some point, or have had some issues with women at some point. All the feminist geek friends I have don’t do that. Because both examples you brought up (non-white elves would be cool!) seem to have extremely valid points *I* would like to hold as conversation (but then I consider myself an equalist). It seems like you’re thinking of a nonfictional situation where the only thing a girl spews out of her mouth from the second she walks into a conversation about video games is how sexist they are. I really have not run across this case.
“If male nerds and geeks wanted to talk about women’s issues, they would be talking about them. These are spaces for them to discuss their interests, and it is rude and arrogant to go into their space, trash their interests, and then telling them what they should like and why they should like it.”
What “spaces” are you talking about? How is geekdom a pure male society of perfection? and why don’t you think men aren’t talking about sexism in video games? How, specifically, is talking about gender equality in video games trash talking them? If you were working in the game industry and someone brought up creating a more gender equal game, would putting them down about it be “protecting their space and their interests”?
My friends and I critique, not bash, lots of video games. What would make it better? What did it do well? What would be a better costume for her?
Like I said before, Geek Culture for Men is an escapism.
I remember growing up in New York’s early 1990′s and living through the Crack epidemic with nothing but Peter Parker & Charles Xavier as my moral back bone. I would spend every dollar fifty I had for bus fair and walk 4 miles a day with my Comic book salvation in my hand. Do you think I’m going to listen to someone tear down something that meant so much to me?
You can’t remove the sense of ownership Men have towards scifi, comic Books and video games.
(note: Hogwarts should have joint custody and for Gods sake keep Twilight…)
I don’t understand why geek culture is escapism for just men? It isn’t a closeted society where you have to undergo entrance exams to participate. If women enjoy geek culture, that is their prerogative, just as much as it would be to criticize things within it that they find offensive, sexist, what have you. If you don’t want to listen to someone “attack” what you like, that is your choice, but it is also a woman’s choice to voice her opinion.
Men have a sense of ownership over EVERYTHING… so because of that, women can’t have opinions about anything that men seemingly claim as theirs?
We can have Twilight? Most geek women probably don’t even like that. So what do geek women get? We can’t have comic books, we can’t have sci-fi fiction, we can’t have videogames. What is ours? Just things that have historically been female realms? Which means nothing within geek culture, right? The kitchen, makeup, romance novels?
Maybe I’m being a chauvinist. Maybe it’s an inability to see women as underdogs. I’d even go so far as to say that some Men think Women are slumming the Geek culture for the attention.
In some regards this all might be a nonissue. Modern Sifi is evolving and expanding past any specific gender preference. Video games are moving towards character driven narratives in hopes of maximizing intellectual properties for Movie distribution and Novels are the New Hollywood starting point. Gender progress is on the move..
This leaves comic books as the last true hideout for Male hereto-normality.
I don’t care if women partake in the consumption of the product but let the record show that the Product itself is the selling of troupes such as “Man as Protecter” , “Body Utopianism”, “Violent conflict Resolution” & “Chivalry”…These are Male centric social norms that run contrary to feminist dogma. Just remember that the next time Movies like Captain America and Thor reach commercial success.
@ Videogamecat
One complaint that feminists have had with MRAs is that MRAs complain that existing DV shelters and programs don’t service the needs of male victims of DV. They say that if men wanted shelters for men they should build them as women took the lead in building shelters for women. One big difference is that many DV programs have federal funding so that they can’t discriminate at least theoretically. We know that many shelters don’t service men, but is the government really going to cut off their funding?
If we were to use the same argument, we would say that if women wanted video games, comic books or sci-fi to portray women in a different light, they should produce them. The argument is more valid, since it is private enterprise not public funds. Although there is some change, wasn’t Hunger Games written by a woman and has a woman protagonist?
This is an interesting point, John Anderson, and the fact is that many, many women in independent spheres are producing comics and videogames for and about women. However, these industries are still largely dominated by men and cater to men, and many women find it very difficult to break into the mainstream. So if I’m a fan of fighting games for example and I really want to play the new Tekken online, I’m going to have to put up with a certain amount of misogyny. In a recent Capcom-sponsored Tekken tournament, a prominent member of the fighting game community claimed that sexual harassment and fighting games are “one and the same time” and trying to restrict his right to make rape jokes is “ethically wrong” and undermines the community is a whole. This in response to a girl dropping out of the tournament because the sexually-charged abuse directed at her made her feel uncomfortable. That’s a kind of extreme example, but it is nonetheless indicative of an environment that is generally and openly hostile to women.
Now, this girl had a choice. She could seek out or create an exclusively female fighting game community or become adept at game design and create her own indie fighting game. But it’s nonetheless sad that she doesn’t feel safe or welcome in a wider community of people who are passionate about the same thing she is.
The same goes for comics to a certain extent. Certainly, I could make my own comics (or in my case, encourage my friends who actually have talent in that area to make comics). But if I want to read Batman (which I do), I am still very much dependent on DC, who have a fairly poor track record for both hiring female writers and artists and for their treatment of female characters. Again, I can choose not to read DC and abandon characters and worlds I loved for years because they crossed the line one to many times, and indeed many women have done that. But I find that kind of sad, because I think it would be much nicer if nerd culture was a space both men and women felt safe and happy in. I think it’s sad that this can’t happen because of a small but vocal population of men who simply MUST have their rape jokes at the expense of women (and frequently at the expense of queers and trans people, but that’s a whole other can of worms).
Obviously, all this sounds kind of trite against your analogy, because DV is a much bigger issue than Batman for both men and women. I think the key difference is that shelters for victims of DV necessarily need to be separate spaces for men and women (and indeed, queer people who have suffered at the hands of either) because victims develop a very real and understandable fear of those who share the gender of their abuser. DV shelters are one of the few situations where I think separation, rather than integration, is the logical solution. I do not think women should exclude themselves from the process of funding and building such shelters, but ultimately, I think victims of female-on-male DV would feel safer and more comfortable in shelters that are founded and run for men and by men, and largely free of the influence of women.
Why are you as interesting as a bucket of water and as deep as the goldfish in it? The interwebz is crawling with boring wannabes and predictable nobodies like you. Keep trying Marianne.
It is not whether the points are valid, but whether a person keeps bringing them up in every discussion, no matter what the discussion is about. When I read stuff written by feminists geeks, there is inevtiably a mention of this sexism or that ‘male privilege’ or that boys’ club. The first two get tiresome very quick because the reality is that none of us are really interested in these fictional worlds and concepts for the politics. The third basically vilifies boys and men for having male-only spaces, which would obviously not go over well with male geeks.
Who said geekdom was “a pure male society of perfection”? The majority of the spaces we are talking about are mostly, if not entirely, male, so by default those spaces will reflect their interests and their views. It is incredibly unlikely that non-feminist males would spontaneously break into a discussion of women’s issues as they relate to video games. I doubt anyone would care if a studio gave equal play to male and female characters as long as the game was good and interesting, but that is not the complaint. The complaint is that male geeks essentially do not focus on feminist concerns. Instead, male geeks, surprisingly, focus on their own interests and really do not want to hear about anything not related to them.
Your use of the phrase “male privilege” makes you one of the femnazis. Men have so few spaces to themselves, without women wanting to feminise everything they do. I’m not surprised that women who want to impose their feminist dogma on geek groups are ostracized. Geekdom isn’t about women, it also isn’t about men although it seems to be a space men prefer in greater numbers than women. It is primarily about people pursuing a common, usually narrow, interest with enthusiasm. Feminist social engineering doesn’t contribute anything positive to this sort of endeavour.
As one female nerd to another: Props on pointing out the fallacy of “She’s cool ’cause SHE’S not like the OTHER girls with their dumb demands and opinions” point.
Also, in the name of everything holy, don’t read the comments. Really, really, really don’t read the comments.
Hay she opened up a can of worms…
Right. Don’t get involved in the discussion. Say what you want and run away.
That serves… what purpose?
Why not read the comments? What possible reason could there be to not read them?
If they’re wrong then you would need to read them in the first place to ascertain this and then respond to them, isn’t that the point of the exercise?
Why bury your head in the sand?
@ Arlette
“As one female nerd to another: Props on pointing out the fallacy of “She’s cool ’cause SHE’S not like the OTHER girls with their dumb demands and opinions” point.
Also, in the name of everything holy, don’t read the comments. Really, really, really don’t read the comments.”
Aren’t you doing to others what you claim to be wrong? That is denying others an opinion.
I think it’s important to distinguish between real nerds and today’s internet-connected dork subcultures. Okay, my nomenclature is somewhat arbitrary…A real nerd doesn’t know when to stop talking about his pet interest (military history, tube amplifiers, woodworking tools, etc.) End result: he’s lonely and has self-esteem problems. It’s not a glamorous or cool situation. Never mind that he’s still a good person. A dork has sufficient social skills to navigate into various interest-centered subcultures (Goth rock, online video games, creative anachronism stuff, etc) and basically join a new in-crowd. A dork SAYS he/she was a total outcast in high school. A nerd actually was.
PS – the ironic hornrim glasses thing has been going on since the mid-’80s. It kind of underscores my feeling that a lot of nerdisms are style accessories, and nerdism is essentially cool, especially now that nerds have parlayed their acute powers of research, organization, and concentration into good Web/Web 2.0 incomes.
I agree and I think that this whole concept of geekiness becoming “cool” is foreign to true geeks. A true geek has no choice about his, or her, geekiness. There are truly geeky women and they suffer as much social rejection and heartbreak as male geeks. It is one thing to be an attractive, thin, socially aware 22-year-old woman who loves comic books. Good for you! But you have options. You are a regular person who has adopted some trappings of geekdom. You are like the hip guy with nerd glasses. Real nerds don’t KNOW that their glasses are unstylish! It’s a whole different thing to be a plain, socially awkward, possibly overweight young woman who loves comic books but never gets asked out on a date.
What is the response you’re fishing for when you are “complaining about the generally awful portrayal of female superheroes throughout the industry”, “wishes that videogame developers take a more unisex approach to design and marketing”, “raise important issues about gender and equality”? I remember losing a friend because I said something bad about the final fantasy movie, turns out he liked it alot. Thats life, its not a conspiracy.
Think we dont notice the eye candy drizzled into games for the lady types? Maybe we just know better than to jump into angry rants about all the boners.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHJSINPuOBU
I think you have a misunderstanding, here. It’s pretty well expressed in your seventh paragraph, where you say some untrue things (I have seen many a female nerd behave against the traditional sexy grain) and, overall, try to get out that “when I hang out with my nerd guy friends, they don’t like to talk about women things.” (That’s “Time and time again, I have seen women run into brick walls of male privilege when they raise important issues about gender and equality within their chosen nerdy field.”)
Your misunderstanding is that you think a guy who likes talking about something that both you and he are interested in–your nerdject, that is–then MUST want to talk about something he is not interested in, because you are interested in it–the gender topic.
It would be unfair to call that a “brick wall of male privilege” when it is simple disinterest. People don’t have to talk about things they’re not interested in; it doesn’t mean we call them sexist, or privileged. And actually, for all you or I know, they might actually have something to say about it, but hold back because they feel you would consider their comments offensive. Maybe they *LIKE* that there are things marketed specifically to them. Maybe they are happy to have found a place where they don’t need to worry about the battery of over-sexualized social interactions that non-nerds deal with on a day-to-day basis. Maybe it is their own response to an increasingly confusing culture that lies on the outside, and threatens to invade their subculture all the time. I don’t know–but if they think those things, and they don’t say them, is that an expression of male privilege? I think not.
This is a people thing, not a male thing.
Excellent point, Michael. When I go see a superhero movie, I’m not interested in my friend’s discussion of the director’s lighting and camera-angle choices. But that’s not privilege, it’s a difference in interests. She wants to explore the “behind the scenes” stuff about the making of the movie, and I don’t; I want to talk about the casting, and she doesn’t. So we talk about the storyline and characters instead.
Where’s the privilege? Where’s the brick wall?
It’s funny you ask where the privilege is, Copyleft.
Part of me wanted to say that it might be considered an expression of a different sort of privilege for one to believe that one can rightly waltz into a subculture and expect members of that culture to be as interested in one’s own concerns as they are in their usual cultural fodder–and, if they aren’t, that one can rightly denounce them to the world, in writing.
But that part of me tends to go further than the rest of me can comfortably assert. So take that with a grain of salt.
Disinterest is not the problem. Well, it’s a problem in the sense that most people would like to generate more interest in issues they feel are important, but it’s certainly not the brick wall. I never said it was. Everyone is 100% entitled not to give a flying fuck about things that don’t interest them.
The brick wall emerges when, for example, a writer posts a rant on a dedicated feminist/pop culture website about the new Duke Nukem game, because it has a level that focuses on girls getting raped and impregnated by giant alien penis things, and that can be seen as a potentially problematic representation of women. The brick wall is the slew of male commenters who descend upon this article and variously tell the writer that’s she’s over-reacting, she’s way too easily offended, girls don’t know anything about videogames, and she’s just whining for attention, probably because she’s a fat ugly lesbian, so she should shut the hell up.
This is not disinterest. If these men genuinely had no interest in women’s issues, they would not be reading an article on feministfatale.com, let alone commenting on it. A lot of these men are very angry. It’s difficult to get angry about something you don’t care about. However, while these men are angry, there is a definite unwillingness to entertain the idea that the writer might have a point or actually engage with the argument in any way. Some guys do absorb the argument, and they’re still angry, and they show that by tearing it to shreds, point by point, and even though that can get pretty heated and unpleasant, it’s still dialogue, it’s still listening and responding, which is ultimately positive. But with a lot of male commenters, there is no listening, there are just abusive comments that undermine the writer’s right to an opinion and ridicule her for being so presumptuous, without ever engaging with the actual content of her argument. I see this all the time, on almost every piece I’ve ever read about representations of women in nerd culture. And that’s the brick wall.
Also, slightly tangential to these comments, because I noticed it throughout the comments on this article, but it’s really interesting to me that so much of the language surrounding women and women’s issues in nerd culture implies that women are somehow invading a space they have no right to occupy. Women are “waltzing in” and “showing up” and attacking and trashing and complaining – but apparently they are not getting worked up about their own interests, the games and worlds and stories in which they have invested time and money and love. They are getting worked up about male interests. And that’s rude and arrogant and exercising privilege, because they are not members of that culture. They are only there on male sufferance. It’s real inside-outside, us-and-them mentality and it’s kind of baffling to me, because I (and I’m sure most other women) feel like I have as much of a right to occupy nerdy spaces as anyone else. Obviously, I totally reject the idea of male ownership when it comes to nerd culture, and I will never EVER accept it as a valid reason to stop talking about sexism in these industries.
Also, the implication is that all these female nerds are staunch feminists who just happened to pick up a videogame one day, and immediately descended on the nearest forum to shriek about gender equality in a thread dedicated to game mechanics. I mean, do these women exist? This is a genuine question, because I have NEVER encountered them. All the feminist opinions I read on videogames (and other nerd things) are on personal blogs, dedicated websites and occasionally on forums, if it’s on-topic. The majority of female nerds are just that; gamers and readers who happen to be female. They love their nerdy pursuits, first and foremost, but sometimes they feel the need to speak up or vent their frustration when the industry they are so invested in makes them feel marginalized or objectified. It seems crazy to talk about nerd culture in terms of male or female space, because thanks to the Internet, there’s infinite space for everyone’s opinions and for an individual to avoid or engage as they see fit.
” If these men genuinely had no interest in women’s issues, they would not be reading an article on feministfatale.com, let alone commenting on it.”
And yet that is not what you appeared to be talking about in this article. You appeared to be complaining about the reaction of ALL male nerds to your raising of gender issues in their presence. If your comment is a good representation of your true intentions, then what you REALLY want to be complaining about, in this case, is MALE NERDS entering the GENDER DISCUSSION. Not FEMALE NERDS entering the NERD DISCUSSION with GENDER ISSUES.
“But with a lot of male commenters, there is no listening, there are just abusive comments that undermine the writer’s right to an opinion and ridicule her for being so presumptuous, without ever engaging with the actual content of her argument.”
And we see the same of female commenters in similar spheres. So this is not a manifestation of male privilege; it is the same thing we see from both sexes and from all genders–from all PEOPLE–that is, a desire to be right.
“it’s really interesting to me that so much of the language surrounding women and women’s issues in nerd culture implies that women are somehow invading a space they have no right to occupy. Women are “waltzing in” and “showing up” and attacking and trashing and complaining – but apparently they are not getting worked up about their own interests, the games and worlds and stories in which they have invested time and money and love. They are getting worked up about male interests. ”
No no no, no no, no no no… don’t start getting these things confused. You risk turning around what I was trying to say, and suggesting that I am saying something totally different. I am NOT saying that female nerds getting interested and worked up about their nerd subject are invading the nerd space. I’m saying that female nerds complaining about gender issues to their friends in nerd-subject-centric settings are SEXUALIZING something that was not necessarily previously sexualized. For the vast majority of those guy nerds, it was not, is not, and never will be about women and men, or even about people. It will be about the nerd subject.
Now, once again, to be clear–the issue you raise of male nerds going to FEMINIST blogs and other places where gender issues are to be expected, and complaining that “girls don’t play video games”–that is totally different, obviously. That is NOT the situation I mentioned. Certainly it is not the situation you appear to be complaining about in most of your article.
And by all means, if there is sufficient demand, we should be seeing video games, card games, comics, etc. marketed to women. And I think we do see those things, since demand creates the market.
But let’s please not turn this into a Title IX-esque situation, where we suggest that game makers and so forth should market equally to nerdudes and nerdettes, with the result being poorly-selling games designed for nerdettes and a dearth of games, all super-expensive, for nerdudes.
Go on voicing your opinion that you would like to see x-female-nerd-targeted product and y-female-nerdsubject-idea. Garner support. But don’t suggest that male privilege is keeping those things from being talked about. Just because some guys don’t want to talk about it doesn’t mean some other guys–and of course, female nerds–don’t want to. It’s their choice. Certainly if they don’t want to worry about gender in their particular nerdsphere, we shouldn’t hold it against them.
(Again, if you want to talk about the situation of male nerds going to feminist or female-nerd blogs to denigrate the position of the female nerd, that is a totally separate issue.)
So in a discussion of a game that’s generally about violence against, one level that depicts violence against women is a problem.
Sounds like female privilege to me.
edit *generally about violence against men
Dammit, now I’m confused. Here in Seattle recently was the first ever(?) Geek Girl Con, a sci-fi pop culture convention dedicated to providing a female-centered event for mavens of comic books, science fiction, anime, etc. Its producers were trying to emphasize that girls are not just the clueless girlfriends of male geeks but have their own legitimate status in geekdom. (I know geek and nerd are not the same thing, but work with me here.) They were trying to raise awareness that women can be geeks in their own right. But, now I see there’s already a reductionist stereotype about female nerds that must be broken through. Not enough awareness and too much awareness at the same time?
Sorry about saying dammit. I meant to say “frak it.”
I think it would be interesting to have a serious discussion about how many “spaces” men and women can turn to in order to escape the difficulties of our hyper-sexualized culture.
Is male nerd culture a successful alternative to sexualized, macho car/sport/bro culture? For male nerds who mostly hang out with other male nerds, is it successful in that regard? That is, do those guys escape some of the cultural mandates associated with your car/sport/bro culture? (I’m not sure it does for all; but for some, I KNOW it does.)
And is there a corresponding subculture that is “stereotypically female,” which takes women away from the culture that uses them (as it similarly uses men)? It almost seems to me that feminism in some ways fits this description, since I know many women who identify as feminist and group together around that. But unfortunately, I think the preoccupation with gender is opposite to the idea that I’m trying to capture.
There are a lot of women who quietly opt out of the obsessive “Sex and the City”/Cosmo/materialistic female culture by pursuing other interests. Arts and crafts (quilting, knitting, etc.) is one area where I think women get together in a female space and do their own thing with absolutely no concern about what men think.
And, btw, those artsy-crafty places are invisible to most men because there is nothing about them that is designed to attract male attention. Rather they are places where women of all ages gather to enjoy the camaraderie of creating beautiful (non-sexual) things with their own hands. Visit a yarn shop for example or check out the knitters social network, Ravelry.com
Oops–this was meant to be a reply to Jill. Sorry all.
Thanks Jill. I had considered that, but I don’t know very much about that particular subculture, or how prevalent it is. I wasn’t keen on bringing it up because somehow, coming from my brain, it sounded sexist. But I do have a number of female friends who connect around their knitting and decoupage and other interesting crafty things. And it’s true, when they talk about it, there appears to be no intention of impressing men or of re-affirming any kind of gender identity. Thanks for bringing that up.
Hmm… what would you consider the equivalent male space where men can ‘do their own thing’ with absolutely no concern about what women think?
@Copyleft, I think there are a lot of spaces where men try to separate themselves from women, starting with the tree house with the “no girls” sign.
I would agree with other comments that many guys do view “nerd culture” as a male space where women don’t belong, although personally I don’t think that alone is the explanation for the hostility that Marianne has observed when issues like sexism in video games is discussed. For one, video games are popular with ALL guys, not just “nerds.” So, talking about it in terms of “nerd culture” is a bit misleading. The truth is, any discussion of women’s issues is guaranteed to get angry trollish responses. A male blogger sees the article about gender issues in video games, puts a link on his blog and a bunch of guys rush over and post hostile remarks. Some of those guys may not even play video games. They are just generally pissed off at women. I think it’s a mistake to judge this issue based on what goes on in the blogosphere, which is a very skewed sample of people.
To the extent we are talking about “nerds” as in the stereotypical guys who are very smart, socially awkward, and clueless and inept with women, I think there may be anger at people in general (not just women) who aren’t nerds who have latched on to nerd culture or identity. A friend of mine, who is very nerdy, said to me, “A hot woman cannot be a nerd. There are no attractive nerds. There are female nerds and they are not attractive women. If you are attractive, and members of the opposite sex ask you out and want to be with you, you are not a nerd, no matter how much you love anume. You are a poser. End of story.”
Sorry, *anime.
Btw, it’s not my opinion that “nerds” can’t be attractive, that’s just what my friend said. He’s one of those guys whom has suffered a lifetime of social exclusion as a result of poor social skills and his idiosyncratic interests.
Woah, Jill. Now you’re being a little ambitious in your generalizations and certainly biased.
“I think there are a lot of spaces where men try to separate themselves from women, starting with the tree house with the ‘no girls’ sign.”
You can’t tell me that little girls don’t do exactly the same thing. That is NOT somehow “male” behavior. In fact, having grown up in a house with two sisters, I can say that little girls are perfectly capable of trashing on a younger boy and excluding him because “girlz rule, boyz drool!”
And your idea that “video games are popular with ALL guys,” now that’s just ridiculous. In fact, my father’s sister is more addicted to video games than any of the adult males I know in her generation. I, myself, am not a gamer, and yet I’m male. So, you know–don’t go around telling us everything you know about guys, when you don’t even know what you know about guys.
I think you seriously misunderstand any of the nerd cultures we’re discussing, by your description.
@Michael P., well, I’m sorry that my admittedly rather rambling remarks got your knickers in such a twist. I am certainly not implying that ONLY men have their own spaces. So do women (and girls), obviously. I was actually responding to Copyleft’s comment to me where he asked me “what would you consider the equivalent male space where men can ‘do their own thing’ with absolutely no concern about what women think?” So I said I think men have a lot of those spaces, which is true, starting in childhood. I’m not sure why that offends you.
Also, I did not mean to imply that ALL men like video games. Maybe I misspoke. I should have said that all TYPES of men like videogames. I think this whole discussion, starting with the original article, is a little off base because I wouldn’t consider video games to be exclusively “nerd space.” So this whole idea of “nerds” being upset because girls are invading “nerd culture” is kind of odd. I think the hostility that Marianne is talking about (in some of her follow up comments) is not about “nerds” being angry about women. Really it’s about the trolls on the internet being angry at women. You can draw a venn diagram if you want. Nerds, non-nerds, guys who play video games, guys who don’t play video games, and guys who troll feminists sites and post angry comments, and guys who don’t troll feminist sites and post angry comments. There is an intersection but I don’t think the anger really has that much to do with “nerds” and their reaction to women invading “nerd culture.” That’s my personal opinion, I could be wrong.
Finally, to the extent “nerds” ARE angry at girls “invading their space” I am actually saying that I think that is a symptom of a socially excluded group being angry at “posers” who co-opt some nerdy interests without having suffered the same pain of social exclusion. This is what my friend described when I discussed this topic with him. I do actually know a lot of guys like that, and their pain is very real.
The reason I asked, Jill, was because you cited the notion of a ‘women-only space’ with approval. But then when I asked what you considered an equivalent “men-only space,” you replied with apparent DISapproval.
Why is that?
I think you misread my tone, or I didn’t express myself well. (I tried to use a smiley to show I was being light!
) Anyway, I don’t disapprove of men having their own spaces, I think both sexes like to have their own spaces. That’s normal and there is nothing wrong with it. It gets complicated with something like a hobby or interest, like video games, where everyone is entitled to take up that hobby and make it their space too. But I understand the inclination people have to say, “hey, this is ours, back off.”
Seriously? Men have all sorts of their own “spaces.” They get together and have LAN parties, BBQs, play softball or golf, go fishing, watch sports, all sorts of stuff. Married guys often have their “man cave” in the den/basement, a workshop in the garage, etc. They certainly aren’t doing those things to impress women, and that’s fine.
Mmm yeah… but I think that in a lot of ways those things are very, you know, macho. Maybe not LAN parties. But the rest of it is pretty much dictated by the cultural desire to see men act like men, even if the culture also likes to make fun of those things. (I hate the term “man cave”).
While knitting and crafting and baking cupcakes is definitely not traditionally-feminine!
Your ability to rationalize away any idea that makes you uncomfortable is truly amazing.
Good question Michael P. I don’t actually think nerd culture takes anyone out of the hype-sexualized culture AT ALL. Quite the opposite actually – videogames are incredibly misogynist and promote all sorts of stereotypes for men and women. And I say this as a female rock musician – people presume that’s a very misogynist environment, but to me it seems like nothing compared to the videogame world.
I think that musicians, writers, artists etc. tend to be able to get past gender stereotypes pretty well actually – just as they were the first to overcome racial barriers, homophobia and so on. There are some types of music like metal that revert to the same ol’ same ol’, but for the most part, it’s a pretty good space to be in. Both men and women are a lot more able to get away from the usual gender roles and open up to each other more.
Hey LF:
I’ll agree that most of the mainstream games aren’t the greatest in terms of sexualized imagery or gender stereotypes (however, I would argue that even kids have the ability to compartmentalize. Just because bugs bunny bamm’s daffy duck w/a mallet doesn’t mean your 4y/o will attack you with a hammer). But, you are incorrect when you draw the conclusion that this has anything to do with nerd-spheres.
Most mainstream games cater to the lowest common denominator. However, you will never see a nerd playing hours upon hours of grand theft auto.
In my experience, just as others have mentioned crotchet & knitting groups, a lot of nerd groups are totally hidden unless you’re on the inside. To make an estimation of what they do based on some mainstream video games, well to be honest it just doesn’t work.
About 10 years ago I went to a gaming convention (table-top gaming). There was about 130 people there which was almost exclusively male.
Nerd-dom has a lot of variants. Some of the ones I have been exposed to and/or heard about:
Table-top miniature battles (historic & fantasy)
Table-top board-gamers (like zombies! Or Talisman)
Table-top RPG games (like dungeons and dragons and others)
Table-top strategy games (like battlehammer)
Then there is the LARP’ers (which I think are kind of silly, but live and let live)
The list goes on and on. Also, most nerds I have encountered either don’t like the action/arcade style of most games.
Nerds don’t play games like grand theft auto or the military shooters because they think they are boring, or they don’t have the hand-eye coordination to do well (lots of these games have online competition mode in which most nerds don’t do well or consider boring as it’s a battle of reflexes rather than strategy or intelligence).
Games nerds would spend lots of time playing would be more like fantasy (like Elder scrolls/morrowind or dragons age) or nation-building (like Civilization or sim-city or star-trek fleet building games) or any of the star wars rpg games, or survival horror (like Resident Evil. In resident evil 2 you must play as both a woman and little girl save the group) or futuristic (Half-Life 2 has a very positive example of a female scientist)
You mention how people make snap-judgements about your participation in music, then you go on to make some snap-judgements of your own.
I would say that overall (depending on what sub-group you’re talking about) that nerds do much better (not worse) in terms of being exposed to gratuitous sexual imagery or gender stereotyping.
Firstly, they are spending time off-the-clock away from tv and marketers, that’s a huge step right there. Secondly, I also think that since nerd-spheres tend to be male only that this can also be healthy in some ways. Thirdly, the activities (whether table-top or pc or console) tend to be gender inclusive (in the rpg star wars games female characters can do anything the male characters can do).
At this gaming convention I saw a lot of middle-aged fathers hosting tables with their teen sons. We’re still agreed father-involvement is good right? I would say nerd-spheres are far ahead of the curve over mainstream society in many ways.
Sorry I missed your reply until now… actually my thoughts have come from knowing a group of very hardcore gamer nerds, including some who have doctorates in the subject (crazy as that may sound). Although they do have a lot of very scathing things to say about the mainstream game industry, in truth a good deal of the fantasy type RPGs have a lot of the same crappy stereotypes, and some of my nerd friends have been somewhat castigated for saying so.
As for the board games, civilization games, father/son involvement and all the rest, I’m all good with that (although I have some entirely non gender related issues with many of the civilization games, but that’s a whole other can of worms).
I kind of disagree here. I know a few guys who love computers and do computers all day, and a lot of times at end of the day they go to a local “coffee pub” and play whatever goofy tabletop game (I’ve tried and can’t get into them) and have a few drinks. One of them has a girlfriend, actually, who sometimes shows up… so in many ways these are “normal” members of society. But to me it looks like they’re usually insulated from the need to have stereotyped male-female sex-overconcerned interactions.
Even amongst your example of video-gamers: there may be subsets who only play games which affirm and play to all the stereotypes in the book. But when I think of the PS3 games I’ve seen some of these guys play… in some of them, there aren’t PEOPLE. And in general, the games that DO have people in them–men and women–are just not concerned with them as men and women; just as characters in some kind of plot. A sex-stereotypical interaction occurs only if it benefits the plot. Not to say this happens with all of them. But in my personal experience, it is 1) low-key and 2) a small amount.
It seems to me like you are being rejected from nerd groups not because you are a woman “intruding” into traditionally male spaces, but because you insist on going off-topic constantly in a way that might make the other members feel uncomfortable or guilty about their hobby.
I was a huge roleplaying nerd in college, my group was nearly half women and no one rejected each other. Because everyone was there to pretend to be heroes and adventurers for a few hours of geeky escapism, not to listen to or give an impromptu lecture on gender politics.
It is not about “male privilege” and I’m sure there are times when it is appropriate to talk about gender in nerd groups. But for example, someone would also most likely be rejected from a group of football fans if they tried to turn every discussion to figure skating, or from a feminist forum if they constantly tried to enlighten the other readers as to why the 4th Edition of Dungeons & Dragons is the worst thing to happen to gaming since Final Fantasy X-2.
No, I don’t insist on going off-topic. Why do you assume that? I would honestly like to know what part of this article suggests that I try to force my opinions on people, or insist on talking about gender politics when it’s not relevant? I write about gender politics. I talk about gender politics if a conversation naturally goes that way. I have never in my life “given an impromptu lecture on gender politics.” Again, why do you assume this is something I do or condone other people doing?
Role-playing is awesome hobby. I think one of the reasons it’s such a safe and friendly space for all genders is that there’s emphasis on creating your own character, so every individual gets to play a character that they can relate to or that they feel represents them. Thus, there’s the all the appeal of fantasy and escapism, without problematic stereotypes that make people feel uncomfortable.
I apologize then, since it appears I got the wrong impression from your article. Also looking back at what I wrote, it sounded a lot more aggressive than I intended.
I do wish there were more female characters in video games that weren’t sexualized so much. And for every huge-breasted woman in stripper gear there is a huge-muscled man wielding an incredibly phallic sword or gun…
Like you said, one great thing about pen and paper RPGs is that you can play around with stereotypes or completely ignore them as you see fit.
One intriguing thing I observed in my time roleplaying is that while people would play characters of different genders and often want to roleplay romantic relationships, they were invariably heterosexual, even if both characters were being played by men.
Sorry for the rambling reply…
Representations of gender in videogames are pretty problematic in general. I often wonder how of my male friends feel about constantly playing as hulking, grunting soldiers or massive Conan-style warriors. I think the key point is that the men are designed to be impossibly muscular bastions of traditional masculinity because that’s what the designers think men want, and the women are over-sexualized and objectified because that’s ALSO what the designers think men want. Which, if you think about it like that, is actually pretty insulting to men.
There have been some really excellent and commercially successful videogames (Heavy Rain and Mirror’s Edge are spring to mind as examples) that present a decidedly more complex view of both men and women, which illustrates that the huge-warrior-men/huge-breasted-women formula is not essential for industry success.
Heteronormativity in the gaming world is a whole other can of worms, but it’s incredibly prevalent. I know there was huge controversy over Dragon Age 2 because there is potential for a gay romance, but it’s interesting that even in a pen-and-paper RPG where the options are completely open, you’ve never witnessed a guy play his male character into a gay relationship.
I agree about representations of gender in videogames. I am not a gamer, so I have a pretty objective view that is based on what friends have shown me, and it scares me actually.
The other thing I find pretty sad is that in the virtual world Second Life, which is not a game per se but you can create literally any character you want, with any body type or clothing style you want, probably 90% of the men choose to be the hulking warrior-looking dude and nearly the same percentage of women (there are actually a lot of women in Second Life) choose to look like Barbie dolls, strippers and hookers. Of course, there are also men who roleplay as women and go for the same look (which must be eye opening for them), and probably the reverse as well, though women playing men is probably not as common, because the men who play women often do it so they can work as “escorts.” Yes, prostitution is the #1 business even in the virtual world. I find this incredibly depressing.
Not that there isn’t an awesome amount of creativity in Second Life also – lots of artists and musicians use it as a vehicle for their art. But it is very sad to see the number of people who, given the opportunity to be anything they want, choose the same awful stereotypes that exist in real life.
I find it amazing that you believe you can throw around numbers like this, and comparisons, as if you have actual data. In fact, until you do some kind of study, you have no way of knowing how many men roleplay as women and women roleplay as men, and who the people are who make these choices of avatar and why they do it. For all you know, 76% of the characters on Second Life are played by 40 people, and 64% of them are male, and 50% of them choose avatars that they consider ironic–such as muscular men and barbie-like women. 2% of them could be intelligent dolphins connected to computers in a secret government lab. What data you have might as well have come to you from a voice you imagined coming from the radio, until you have investigated it in a rigorous way.
So please refrain from saying, “though women playing men is probably not as common,” or “90% of the men choose” to be superficial and “NEARLY the same percentage of women (there are a lot of women in Second Life)” choose the same. Until you know it. Otherwise you’re spreading what amounts to a lie.
Ballpark numbers based on anecdotal evidence aren’t great, and certainly dubious. Virtual evidence is silly. So ballpark numbers based on virtual anecdotal evidence… you get the idea.
I don’t pretend to have actual numbers, which is why I qualified my statements with things like “probably.” It does not amount to a lie to give anecdotal evidence based on quite a lot of time spent in Second Life, and talking to other people who’ve spent lots of time in Second Life. It’s an educated guess, and I believe I made that clear. I also gave reasons for why I make the assumptions that I do (e.g. that there are more men roleplaying as women than the reverse, because there are more “employment opportunities.”) You can disagree with my assumptions if you have anecdotal or other evidence to assume otherwise, but don’t characterize what I said as spreading a lie. I simply related my personal experience and that of many others I’ve talked to about Second Life as a “social microcosm.”
Actually, claiming to have approximate statistics does amount to lying.
I didn’t claim they were statistics – they were *guessing* based on my personal experience and that of other frequent Second Lifers I’ve spoken to.
Suit yourself if you want to claim it’s “lying” but I don’t understand the point of that. All it does is prove you’re not empathetic enough to try to discern a person’s meaning rather than taking every word literally. Why don’t you comment on your own experience if you have it? Do you think that Second Life helps more people to break out of stereotypes, or to perpetuate them?
I have absolutely no way of knowing whether Second Life helps people break out of stereotypes or perpetuates them, because:
1) Aside from having tested it out, I do not play (or “live”) Second Life.
2) There is no way of knowing who sits behind the avatars in Second Life.
The key here is item (2), as I tried to make clear. I’m not somehow lacking empathy, nor do I misunderstand your meaning. I understand your meaning perfectly. But unfortunately, I think that maybe sorta kinda almost POTENTIALLY true statements like your own go a long way toward distorting the fact that we simply cannot know these things.
Maybe you, on the other hand, don’t want to believe that innocent-feeling statements like your own are closer to lying than you previously realized. It’s okay–I didn’t mean this as an attack. But I think you should be aware, and so should everyone else.
For instance, when someone posts a quotation ostensibly from someone famous, and it turns out that person never said it… Their feeling is almost always, “well it was the quotation that mattered.” But when you misattribute a quotation, you are doing something worse than you realize, because people reading the quotation (and possibly posting it in other places) are led to believe it carries some moral authority.
Example: “Violence is always evil.”-Thomas Jefferson. No, Jefferson never said that. But plenty of people would be willing to accept that quotation AND its attribution; they are likely to like it even more because it was said by Jefferson. And suppose some sort of thing, like the killing of Gadhafi, has just happened. Then that quote gets propagated all across the internet. What is initially an innocent-feeling decision to post something that MIGHT, SORT OF, KIND OF, ALMOST be true turns out to be a lie that is amplified by repetition.
Even if, in my example, no one had gone on to post it again… some of them might remember it and it would affect their moral opinions of both Jefferson and all cases of violence. And they would influence other people and so forth.
If you want to make the world a more truthful place… you have to try not to generalize when you don’t have any kind of certainty about the data. It’s a tall step, I know, to switch to thinking like that in daily life, but it is necessary when what you want is a world where people can understand each other and not simply act out on their most wildly emotional concerns.
But anyway. Point being you can’t know these things with very much certainty at all. Most especially since things like Second Life are relatively new, with respect to humanity.
Sorry Michael, but there’s an awful lot of ground between having empirical data and just making shit up (or misattributing it). People can make well considered generalizations, and they can be meaningful (especially in the absence of empirical data, which as far as I know we don’t have much of yet). People’s personal experiences are not meaningless or lies.
LF:
I agree that there is a substantial list of games that are troubling.
However, as I mentioned up-thread the games with the most gratuitous sexual imagery typically have nothing to do with nerds.
Marriane says:
“but it’s interesting that even in a pen-and-paper RPG where the options are completely open, you’ve never witnessed a guy play his male character into a gay relationship.”
Actually, it’s not a mystery at all. It’s called FANTASY rpg for a reason. The men are playing out their fantasy of being a sword (or spell) wielding hero. Since they are not gay, they have no interest in playing a gay hero. To suggest this is somehow lacking on their part isn’t fair.
Can I make the same pronouncement that you are not interested in black studies? To just bring something out of the air and say this person group is lacking because of yada yada doesn’t seem fair, mature, or profound in anyway.
Moving this into fantasy games, I think playing as a muclebound warrior is not indicative of anything. Once again it’s called fantasy for a reason. Unlike with say barbie dolls, these muscle-bound warriors don’t represent a standard to emulate, but a fantasy hero.
I also think you seriously underestimate the ability of teenage boys and young men to compartmentalize.
To my mind, you seem to be throwing your nerd groups under the bus and mischaracterizing them. (Of course, I could be wrong depending on what experiences you’re specifically talking about). Quite frankly as nerdospheres are already ostracized groups who are throwing off most constricting standards (like men are supposed to like sports) I don’t think they have any standards to conform to others views.
If you bring this air into your meetings, I can see why they are trying to ostracize you. Nerds are a subculture of boys/men (and in rare cases girls/women) who are refusing to accept the tiny accepted interests of men (titties, beer, sports). Women already have so many choices compared to men would explain why most women/girls are intensely and quickly bored of most nerd-spheres.
“To suggest this is somehow lacking on their part isn’t fair.”
I didn’t suggest it was lacking, I said it was interesting. Menelas pointed out that though he knows people who like to play as a different genders (even though they presumably have no desire to change their actual gender), he doesn’t know anyone who plays romantic relationships contrary to their sexuality. I think it’s interesting that players will experiment with their gender as part of their fantasy, but not with their sexuality and I wonder what that’s indicative of.
You can say I have no interest in black studies if you want. You have zero evidence to back this up, but it’s definitely a thing you could say. However, the points I raise in my article did not come out of the “air” as you suggest.
I cover the rest of the points you raise in your comment in responses to other commenters, and detail the specific experiences I am talking about.
I think you have a very narrow view of men’s accepted interests and I don’t see how you came to the conclusion that women have so many choices compared to men. Both men and women labour under stereotypes of masculinity and femininity, and both have the right to conform or resist as they see fit.
I know plenty of people who’ll roleplay different sexualities on MMPRPGs, where they are anonymous. In fact, this has become a bit of a stereotype, hasn’t it?
Have to comment on the DA2 thing: There have been several other games in which there are optional homosexual relationship subplots to go alongside the optional heterosexual relationship subplots that no one bats an eye to. The first Dragon Age game was actually a decent example of this well done.
The issue with Dragon Age 2, was more about this one particular character both pressing the issue, and there not being any “platonic” option whatsoever. You literally had a choice of romance or rivalry, and the option to go down the romance line wasn’t too obvious that that was where you were headed. Also they pulled an “everyone is bisexual to make things simpler” bit that wasn’t well received. Bad writing is bad. You’ll notice no one complained about Zevran Arainai in the first Dragon Age despite his bisexuality. Ditto for Leliana (who was one of my favorite companions in DA:O).
True, bad writing is bad and your issues with DA2 seem fairly legitimate. However, your issues with the writing aren’t the issues most players seem to have with that game (or certainly are not how they chose to explain them.) Most of them took the “OMG GROSS GAYNESS, WHY ARE THERE GAYS WHEN ALL GAMERS ARE STRAIGHT MALES, UGH, STOP CATERING TO MINORITIES, POLITICAL CORRECTNESS GONE MAD” line of reasoning. I don’t know why DA2 specifically irked so many straight male gamers, but it did and their issues wasn’t bad writing, it was homophobia, pure and simple. I’m willing to bet a significant amount of money that there wouldn’t have been any uproar at all if the “no friendship, only romance or rivalry” option was confined to a straight relationship.
Not a gamer here, more nerdwife than nerd-girl, but I’d just like to point out that what is assumed as female eye-candy might not be. Most of my female friends don’t go for the muscle-bound body-builder types, more are attracted to the guy-next-door type – average build, decent face. I have seen studies too that back this up as more general, not unique to my self-selected social circles.
I was reading an article discussing The Further Adventures of Seymour Butts, it’s a porn type game where guys try to sleep with women and if you’re successful, you get to view the sex scene. The developers were asked about creating games for women and they replied that they would because they felt that there was a market for it, but that there weren’t many female developers out there and that the guys couldn’t determine what women wanted. Just because women reject it, doesn’t mean that it wasn’t meant to be eye candy. It’s just what guys think women want.
Thanks Jill. I had considered that, but I don’t know very much about that particular subculture, or how prevalent it is. I wasn’t keen on bringing it up because somehow, coming from my brain, it sounded sexist. But I do have a number of female friends who connect around their knitting and decoupage and other interesting crafty things. And it’s true, when they talk about it, there appears to be no intention of impressing men or of re-affirming any kind of gender identity. Thanks for bringing that up.
well written.
I have to admit i wish there were less unrealistic female choices for my characters in games. I am not into looking at barbie when i play a game. But I find the male toons ugly.
now maybe my BF will go to the kitchen and make me a sandwich….
Usually most nerds are technically inclined in some form or another but you are an arts major.
I like nerdy girls but more so because they are likely to be critical thinkers rather than ramble off unsupported male privilege. It’s because men are the majority of the market just like women have more options for clothing and most advertising is directed at women…female privilege? Dumb girls are a huge turnoff.
Yes, I am an arts major. I don’t know what that has to do with anything.
The fashion industry most definitely privileges women and I’ve seen it work against men time and time again. My ex-boyfriend was really into 60s mod fashion, and he used to take a lot flak (from both women and men) for putting time and effort into his look. That’s definitely female privilege at play.
Not to be a Debbie downer but you essentially just said I didn’t exist
“This quriky girl is accepted as one of the guys; she’s whip-smart, loves Star Wars/Lord of the Rings/Dungeons & Dragon, she swears and she makes “guy” jokes. Crucially, she is low maintenance; she never wants to go shopping or worries about her nails, and she makes no stressful demands of her male counterpart when it comes to silly things like anniversaries and personal hygiene.”
“Obviously, this idealised nerd girl does not actually exist.”
^ That’s really me! Minor changes about anniversaries and personal hygiene… but me! This comment really hurt, no offense.
OK, no to bib boobs, no to nerdy…
Could some woman tell us poor men the full list of acceptable reasons for loving someone?
I actually think there might be a bit of miscommunication here. Guys like fixing things. Guys especially like fixing things for girls. But this article look more like a woman venting. There’s nothing to fix. It’s just life.
Are you sure about the big boobs thing?
One could argue that Leisure Suit Larry and the Further Adventures of Seymour Butts objectified women, but that might have been the whole purpose of the games.
As a “female nerd”–someone who has worked both at Game Stop and a comic book store–I’ve been in many similar situations. I was hit on quite frequently at both workplaces and it was solely because I was a girl and I was nerdy. Sometimes I even went out with some of these guys but I was quickly disappointed when they realized that yes, I was actually a real flesh-and-blood girl instead of their fantasy perfect girl (like that comment about being able to play Xbox together and bang later).
Often, my “nerd” status was exploited by guys as a way to flatter me and make me feel like they actually appreciated for me…but later I would find out that it just another way to get in my pants and they didn’t actually like “me”.
Something to consider from an artistic point of view, are there any elements intrinsic to the genre? Can these elements evolve? For example, the “B” movie genre usually relies on gratuitous female nudity and violence. Male nudity if present tends to not fall under the gratuitous kind. Can “B” movies evolve to incorporate gratuitous male nudity and stay true to the genre or if there is a market for it, develop a separate genre were this is the norm like “C” movies?
Well, if Buffy showed us anything, it’s that gratuitous female nudity and a lack of strong female characters are not intrinsic to nerd culture.
Sure, but there are also different sub types. For instance, “B” movies will have a sub group women in prison, slasher, nazi, biker, Troma even does a camp/horror style. Is Buffy a niche of nerd culture and a rather small one at that based on the complaints by the ladies or does it signal an evolution? I don’t find Sarah Michelle Gellar to be a stunning beauty, but she’s not unattractive and Eliza Dushku is hot. Hot women are the norm for scifi. The portrayal of the slayers might have been affected by the medium, broadcast TV. Look at Vampirella. There is a huge difference.
Getting back to your point, I think the game developers will stay (mostly) true to the characters when creating Buffy games. Buffy won’t all of a sudden become DD or dress like a bikini model most of the time. Gamers stay true to their characters. Look at the backlash when Wing Commander decided to make Hobbes a traitor. I’m not against women having games for them. I just question if trying to force its incorporation into games geared for men and boys is the appropriate way to do it.
Or the absolutely crap depiction of Samus in Other M…because omg how horrible. But yeah, mostly I was just saying that gratuitous nudity isn’t inherent in nerdy genres.
It’s All Your Base, not All Your Bases, hence your argument is moot.
“Take your eyes off the All Your Bases shirt. I’m up here.”
Excellent closing line. ^_^