Please, people–relax and enjoy a wonderful moment in these people’s lives. What a gift to give someone–friends and family working together to give this woman an amazing proposal. You are beating it to death with your agendas !
Fine. But just don’t make it a matter of “raising the bar.” A heartfelt proposal at a quiet dinner (or even a shower) can be jsut as romantic.
As well, there’s nothing wrong with questioning – just questioning – tradition.
Guest
gimme a break
11 years ago
ick. why get married in the first place? men and women don’t know how to treat each other, everyone is so selfish and unloving, and try to justify crappy behavior with their “biology” or their “wants” or “finding themselves” crap.
marriage is a defunct institution. just don’t, people.
Guest
Mollie
11 years ago
This proposal totally embarrasses me to watch it. It’s really sweet, but I would never want anything like that. I don’t want a ring, I want to mutually propose to each other (why should I be the only one that gets affirmed or the one on whom the choice depends?) , and I hope it’s private. Sometimes, it certainly seems like I’m one of the few females who thinks such things. I really appreciate the recent GMP posts highlighting over the top proposals, whether engagement rings are necessary, and simple weddings. Flash and sparkle are great and often well-intentioned, but… Read more »
Guest
Erin
11 years ago
Monkey said: “What else would call getting down on one knee with a diamond ring? We’re not trying to guilt anyone, just point out that with many other gender roles being challenged, it’s frustrating to see this one being reinforced and taken to the next level. I’d call it “traditional”. Should I complain next time a boyfriend wants me ot get on my knees to orally service him? I have no problem getting on my knees for someone I love. I LOVE giving them that kind of pleasure. And a lot of men seem to really enjoy it when you… Read more »
As you said, you do those things because you enjoy them, and some women don’t, and would (rightfully) resent the societal pressure to do those things. I seriously doubt that a video of a woman cooking an elaborate meal for her partner would pass without comment on this site or a site geared toward women (let alone the… other thing) A big part of GMP is challenging and questioning tradition. We don’t defend dowries, women taking their husband’s name or not working outside the home on the basis of tradition, why should we defend this? As well, considering that we… Read more »
I’d say we would defend someone’s right to take his or her husband’s name, or vise versa. We’d be against someone enforcing that tradition, just as we’d be against someone enforcing this tradition.
Whatever you choose to do, if you’re conscious about it and not hurting anybody, we’re all for it.
That’s not the message I get from “Our Favorite Blog”, RoleReboot.
Part of their mission statement: “We are forward-thinking, creative, thoughtful men and women dissatisfied with the limitations of deeply-embedded traditional gender roles.”
Eric, if you actually GO to R/R and read, you’ll see a whole section on their site about how and why different people chose to change their names or not.
Just because you’re dissatisfied with the limitations of tradition doesn’t mean you’re against tradition. They mean different things.
Dear Joanna, I have BEEN TO RR. Taken together, their message is that they personally ARE against traditional gender roles; meaning that breaking free from them is a better way to live. That’s the whole idea. For instance, they say, “We’re not the Cleavers or Ozzie and Harriet (nor do we want to be!).” Why not? Thought they were “all for” the Cleavers. Whether you say they (you all) are against traditional gender roles, dissatisfied, or some other term, clearly they (you all) are not “all for it”, as you stated. Except, apparently, when it involves the tradition of men… Read more »
Well, my personal take is that the whole thing is a little antiquated. I respect this guy’s dedication and imagination, but I bristled at the idea of “raising the bar.” the whole idea of performing romance as a competition is what runs me the wrong way.
Monkey, if you do not want to get on your knees to ask for someone’s hand in marraige, that’s fine. No one is arguing with your right there. If a woman doesn’t want to get on her knees to orally service her partner because she thinks it’s belittling, then that’s her choice too. However, a lot of people do not think getting on their knees to perform a kind of service for someone they love is belitting. They consider it an act of love. There is no indiciation in this flim clip that this man did anything against his will.… Read more »
You’re quire missing the point. It’s not that Isaac is wrong for doing it; it’s that it’s annoying that headlines like “ruining it for other guys” are essentially saying that guys *must* do over the top proposals (or, indeed, be the one to propose at all) and that anything less is somehow “unromantic.”
No, I am not missing the point at all. You said and I qoute, “Yeah, this rubs me the wrong way. It would be cool if we outgrew the whole proposal thing. As well, the idea that this “ruins it for other guys” plays up the idea that love is a competition.” The title of the article was not your only point of contention about the entire thing to begin with. It wasn’t even your first point of contention. You talked more about getting down on your knees for someone then about the title of the actual article. Have you… Read more »
“rubs me the wrong way” means just what it says. “it would be cool if” also means just what it says. We may not have to completely give up tradition, but it’s healthy to question it.
As well I’m not sure how else to take “ruins for the rest of us.”
But the whole process -going down on one knee, the ring- is part of a “tradition” that we have changed over time. We no longer expect women to have dowries, take their husbands’ name, etc. We should st the very least question this.
“We no longer expect women to have dowries, take their husbands’ name, etc. We should st the very least question this.”
I know I do. If she’s not willing to follow the gender-role tradition of accepting my name, I’m definitely not following the gender-role tradition of dropping $5,000 or $10,000 on an engagement ring or getting down on one knee.
Monkey, I’m not arguing with your right to choose whatever kind of marriage or engagement you desire. I just don’t understand looking for something negative in this video. I understand you saying, “that’s not for me.” I don’t understand the Men’s Right Movement-like uproar though about a man doing something for someone he obviously loves. Do you look down on the man in the video? I certainly don’t. I personally like some traditions and of course, I understand that traditions and life styles change and new traditions come into play that work better for a more modern society. I just… Read more »
I’m not a men’s rights activist. I don’t look down on Isaac, but I don’t feel the need to celebrate him or to look up to him as an exemplar of how to do a proposal “right.” I don’t want to pedestalize a potential spouse. If I choose to marry it will be with an equal. And as someone not given to grand public gestures (I agree that this is as much for his own ego as to make her feel special) I resent the pressure that comes from people celebrating this as “raising the bar.” In terms of the… Read more »
So, I”m going to reframe the “on the knee” thing just a bit. When two people greet in this country (US) we offer each other our hands in greeting. A handshake. Here is the wiki on the origin of such a thing, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handshake, mostly so we could show we didn’t have any weapons, are approaching with good will etc. There are a number of ways of showing we don’t have weapons, like opening up the coat or raising the arms in the air or other things, but this one has stuck. In fact we have all kinds of cultural symbolism… Read more »
“I bet most people don’t really even think about it or thinking of it as a “humiliation” thing or begging, but I can read that into it.”
Funny how the bride being given away is a terribly sexist and outmoded tradition, but the man getting down on his knees (which what commoners did begging/bowing before royalty) is something that doesn’t need to be examined to closely.
Erin, your views make sense, assuming you are not opposed to other gender-role traditions. My issue is with those who (apparently falsely) claim to be against prescribed, traditional gender-roles but who endorse and support these traditional gender-roles. Turns out that they really aren’t against gender-roles after-all; turns out that they are against men.
Guest
Erin
11 years ago
How in the world does one equate marriage proposals to something that needs to be “out grown”? That’s like me saying that I wish men would “out grow” oral sex. And why all the negativity? I’m glad the man in the video that orgainized this did something special and unique for his future bride. His effort in making a warm, fun, and unique proposal for just her is really something special. We need more of that kind of kindess in the world. I think it’s nothing but goodness when a man or woman does something kind and special for their… Read more »
When did “asking” turn into “beggging”? I’m disturbed that the idea of someone asking another person to marry them is automatically equated with “begging” to begin with. There are lots of things I have asked former boyfriends. Things that I wanted, things that they wanted . Does that mean everytime I asked something I was begging? There are many times when boyfriends have asked me for something. Does that mean they were begging? It seems to me that some people believe women are not allowed to have anything special or sincere done for them. Such as something completely nice in… Read more »
What else would call getting down on one knee with a diamond ring? We’re not trying to guilt anyone, just point out that with many other gender roles being challenged, it’s frustrating to see this one being reinforced and taken to the next level
“And to be honest, women get so little romance now-a-days.”
My sister’s husband bought her an engagement ring that cost some outrageous amount of money, and he bought himself one that also cost a lot of cash (though not nearly as much as hers). He arranged the whole proposal with this romantic getaway, and my sister had no idea he was going to propose until he did. Traditionalist that he is, he asked my father for permission first, even…I mean if my father had said ‘no’ I’m not sure what he would have done, but he made the gesture. Now if it were me, all of that would piss me… Read more »
True…though I’d say that it’s more that this little blog post is just failing to challenge the prescriptive nature of the way we’ve gendered marriage proposals. It didn’t write the prescription, though yeah it did fail to challenge it. Unfortunately I think it was meant to be a bit humorous, and instead just sort of fed into the problem.
So yeah, it’s fair to critique it, but I also think it’s important to keep that critique in perspective.
“When it comes to the individual and personal level, though, then I’m more of the opinion that people do what works for them.” Agreed. 100%. Leave people be in their personal lives. Butt out. Would you please, please tell the anti-gender-role brigade that. They don’t get that simple but important concept. They are so anxious to tell people what they believe should work for them rather than let “people [themselves] do what works for them.” For some reason, they think it’s their job to tell people how to live their personal lives, expect where men are begging and/or buying, such… Read more »
What Peter said. It’s difficult to have an equal partnership if one party has to buy an expensive ring and create an elaborate show to “win” the other person. The very idea that women are a “prize” is insulting.
Yeah, it’s not possible for it to be an equal partnership under these conditions, which is clear evidence that those who claim to be for equal partnerships but endorse or don’t at least reject these practices really aren’t trying to achieve true equality at all.
“As well, the idea that this “ruins it for other guys” plays up the idea that love is a competition.” Agreed, and that is why site liek ‘the Nest’ are so popular.
Really?? Guys!!! This is awesome! In today’s world seeing a group of sooo many happy people doing something which is ONLY positive for a full five minutes? The last time I experienced that I was on Percocet! Lighten up.
Guest
Michelle
11 years ago
Totally agree Eric! Please lovely men: keep marriage proposals simple, honest, private and allow room for a “not yet” and even “no”. unless you are super sure your girlfriend will sway yes… Don’t force an obligation to say it just to save face.
Or, replace the whole proposal process with a series of adult conversations about what you both want out of life, values, visions, passions, morals, ethics, children, etc, etc. etc. and whether your plans include marriage or not. And how you feel about each other. Over time, whether you want to marry each other should be clear, making a proposal unnecessary. Or at best a forgone conclusion formality.
One would think so. Similarly, one would have suspected that of the many highly public, recorded proposals on youtube and where the answer has been no. Evidently, that was not an accurate suspicion.
However, if all those conversations had taken place, there is no reason to make a formal proposal. I would think that the anti-gender-role patrol here would eschew the tradition of men proposing to women, especially the getting down on one knee tradition.
Yeah, this is a really big issue with elaborate proposals like this. If you’re reasonably sure she’ll say yes, fine, but otherwise you’re creating a really awkward situation for her.
Guest
Eric M.
11 years ago
Wow. Amazing coordination. But, what if she had said no? Highly public proposals are risky. Glad it worked out after all of that.
Please, people–relax and enjoy a wonderful moment in these people’s lives. What a gift to give someone–friends and family working together to give this woman an amazing proposal. You are beating it to death with your agendas !
Fine. But just don’t make it a matter of “raising the bar.” A heartfelt proposal at a quiet dinner (or even a shower) can be jsut as romantic.
As well, there’s nothing wrong with questioning – just questioning – tradition.
ick. why get married in the first place? men and women don’t know how to treat each other, everyone is so selfish and unloving, and try to justify crappy behavior with their “biology” or their “wants” or “finding themselves” crap.
marriage is a defunct institution. just don’t, people.
This proposal totally embarrasses me to watch it. It’s really sweet, but I would never want anything like that. I don’t want a ring, I want to mutually propose to each other (why should I be the only one that gets affirmed or the one on whom the choice depends?) , and I hope it’s private. Sometimes, it certainly seems like I’m one of the few females who thinks such things. I really appreciate the recent GMP posts highlighting over the top proposals, whether engagement rings are necessary, and simple weddings. Flash and sparkle are great and often well-intentioned, but… Read more »
Monkey said: “What else would call getting down on one knee with a diamond ring? We’re not trying to guilt anyone, just point out that with many other gender roles being challenged, it’s frustrating to see this one being reinforced and taken to the next level. I’d call it “traditional”. Should I complain next time a boyfriend wants me ot get on my knees to orally service him? I have no problem getting on my knees for someone I love. I LOVE giving them that kind of pleasure. And a lot of men seem to really enjoy it when you… Read more »
As you said, you do those things because you enjoy them, and some women don’t, and would (rightfully) resent the societal pressure to do those things. I seriously doubt that a video of a woman cooking an elaborate meal for her partner would pass without comment on this site or a site geared toward women (let alone the… other thing) A big part of GMP is challenging and questioning tradition. We don’t defend dowries, women taking their husband’s name or not working outside the home on the basis of tradition, why should we defend this? As well, considering that we… Read more »
I’d say we would defend someone’s right to take his or her husband’s name, or vise versa. We’d be against someone enforcing that tradition, just as we’d be against someone enforcing this tradition.
Whatever you choose to do, if you’re conscious about it and not hurting anybody, we’re all for it.
That’s not the message I get from “Our Favorite Blog”, RoleReboot.
Part of their mission statement: “We are forward-thinking, creative, thoughtful men and women dissatisfied with the limitations of deeply-embedded traditional gender roles.”
Eric, if you actually GO to R/R and read, you’ll see a whole section on their site about how and why different people chose to change their names or not.
Just because you’re dissatisfied with the limitations of tradition doesn’t mean you’re against tradition. They mean different things.
Dear Joanna, I have BEEN TO RR. Taken together, their message is that they personally ARE against traditional gender roles; meaning that breaking free from them is a better way to live. That’s the whole idea. For instance, they say, “We’re not the Cleavers or Ozzie and Harriet (nor do we want to be!).” Why not? Thought they were “all for” the Cleavers. Whether you say they (you all) are against traditional gender roles, dissatisfied, or some other term, clearly they (you all) are not “all for it”, as you stated. Except, apparently, when it involves the tradition of men… Read more »
Well, my personal take is that the whole thing is a little antiquated. I respect this guy’s dedication and imagination, but I bristled at the idea of “raising the bar.” the whole idea of performing romance as a competition is what runs me the wrong way.
Monkey, if you do not want to get on your knees to ask for someone’s hand in marraige, that’s fine. No one is arguing with your right there. If a woman doesn’t want to get on her knees to orally service her partner because she thinks it’s belittling, then that’s her choice too. However, a lot of people do not think getting on their knees to perform a kind of service for someone they love is belitting. They consider it an act of love. There is no indiciation in this flim clip that this man did anything against his will.… Read more »
You’re quire missing the point. It’s not that Isaac is wrong for doing it; it’s that it’s annoying that headlines like “ruining it for other guys” are essentially saying that guys *must* do over the top proposals (or, indeed, be the one to propose at all) and that anything less is somehow “unromantic.”
No, I am not missing the point at all. You said and I qoute, “Yeah, this rubs me the wrong way. It would be cool if we outgrew the whole proposal thing. As well, the idea that this “ruins it for other guys” plays up the idea that love is a competition.” The title of the article was not your only point of contention about the entire thing to begin with. It wasn’t even your first point of contention. You talked more about getting down on your knees for someone then about the title of the actual article. Have you… Read more »
“rubs me the wrong way” means just what it says. “it would be cool if” also means just what it says. We may not have to completely give up tradition, but it’s healthy to question it.
As well I’m not sure how else to take “ruins for the rest of us.”
But the whole process -going down on one knee, the ring- is part of a “tradition” that we have changed over time. We no longer expect women to have dowries, take their husbands’ name, etc. We should st the very least question this.
“We no longer expect women to have dowries, take their husbands’ name, etc. We should st the very least question this.”
I know I do. If she’s not willing to follow the gender-role tradition of accepting my name, I’m definitely not following the gender-role tradition of dropping $5,000 or $10,000 on an engagement ring or getting down on one knee.
Monkey, I’m not arguing with your right to choose whatever kind of marriage or engagement you desire. I just don’t understand looking for something negative in this video. I understand you saying, “that’s not for me.” I don’t understand the Men’s Right Movement-like uproar though about a man doing something for someone he obviously loves. Do you look down on the man in the video? I certainly don’t. I personally like some traditions and of course, I understand that traditions and life styles change and new traditions come into play that work better for a more modern society. I just… Read more »
I’m not a men’s rights activist. I don’t look down on Isaac, but I don’t feel the need to celebrate him or to look up to him as an exemplar of how to do a proposal “right.” I don’t want to pedestalize a potential spouse. If I choose to marry it will be with an equal. And as someone not given to grand public gestures (I agree that this is as much for his own ego as to make her feel special) I resent the pressure that comes from people celebrating this as “raising the bar.” In terms of the… Read more »
So, I”m going to reframe the “on the knee” thing just a bit. When two people greet in this country (US) we offer each other our hands in greeting. A handshake. Here is the wiki on the origin of such a thing, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handshake, mostly so we could show we didn’t have any weapons, are approaching with good will etc. There are a number of ways of showing we don’t have weapons, like opening up the coat or raising the arms in the air or other things, but this one has stuck. In fact we have all kinds of cultural symbolism… Read more »
“I bet most people don’t really even think about it or thinking of it as a “humiliation” thing or begging, but I can read that into it.”
Funny how the bride being given away is a terribly sexist and outmoded tradition, but the man getting down on his knees (which what commoners did begging/bowing before royalty) is something that doesn’t need to be examined to closely.
“I’d call it “traditional”.
Erin, your views make sense, assuming you are not opposed to other gender-role traditions. My issue is with those who (apparently falsely) claim to be against prescribed, traditional gender-roles but who endorse and support these traditional gender-roles. Turns out that they really aren’t against gender-roles after-all; turns out that they are against men.
How in the world does one equate marriage proposals to something that needs to be “out grown”? That’s like me saying that I wish men would “out grow” oral sex. And why all the negativity? I’m glad the man in the video that orgainized this did something special and unique for his future bride. His effort in making a warm, fun, and unique proposal for just her is really something special. We need more of that kind of kindess in the world. I think it’s nothing but goodness when a man or woman does something kind and special for their… Read more »
“How in the world does one equate marriage proposals to something that needs to be “out grown”? ”
Because it’s a bit weird to have one partner beg the other to marry them, and to have this activity divide strictly along gender lines.
When did “asking” turn into “beggging”? I’m disturbed that the idea of someone asking another person to marry them is automatically equated with “begging” to begin with. There are lots of things I have asked former boyfriends. Things that I wanted, things that they wanted . Does that mean everytime I asked something I was begging? There are many times when boyfriends have asked me for something. Does that mean they were begging? It seems to me that some people believe women are not allowed to have anything special or sincere done for them. Such as something completely nice in… Read more »
What else would call getting down on one knee with a diamond ring? We’re not trying to guilt anyone, just point out that with many other gender roles being challenged, it’s frustrating to see this one being reinforced and taken to the next level
“And to be honest, women get so little romance now-a-days.”
And men almost never get romance.
My sister’s husband bought her an engagement ring that cost some outrageous amount of money, and he bought himself one that also cost a lot of cash (though not nearly as much as hers). He arranged the whole proposal with this romantic getaway, and my sister had no idea he was going to propose until he did. Traditionalist that he is, he asked my father for permission first, even…I mean if my father had said ‘no’ I’m not sure what he would have done, but he made the gesture. Now if it were me, all of that would piss me… Read more »
Fair enough about this fitting the individual’s desire, but the way this was presented (“ruin for the rest of us”) is rather prescriptive.
True…though I’d say that it’s more that this little blog post is just failing to challenge the prescriptive nature of the way we’ve gendered marriage proposals. It didn’t write the prescription, though yeah it did fail to challenge it. Unfortunately I think it was meant to be a bit humorous, and instead just sort of fed into the problem.
So yeah, it’s fair to critique it, but I also think it’s important to keep that critique in perspective.
“When it comes to the individual and personal level, though, then I’m more of the opinion that people do what works for them.” Agreed. 100%. Leave people be in their personal lives. Butt out. Would you please, please tell the anti-gender-role brigade that. They don’t get that simple but important concept. They are so anxious to tell people what they believe should work for them rather than let “people [themselves] do what works for them.” For some reason, they think it’s their job to tell people how to live their personal lives, expect where men are begging and/or buying, such… Read more »
What Peter said. It’s difficult to have an equal partnership if one party has to buy an expensive ring and create an elaborate show to “win” the other person. The very idea that women are a “prize” is insulting.
Yeah, it’s not possible for it to be an equal partnership under these conditions, which is clear evidence that those who claim to be for equal partnerships but endorse or don’t at least reject these practices really aren’t trying to achieve true equality at all.
Yeah, this rubs me the wrong way. It would be cool if we outgrew the whole proposal thing.
As well, the idea that this “ruins it for other guys” plays up the idea that love is a competition.
“As well, the idea that this “ruins it for other guys” plays up the idea that love is a competition.” Agreed, and that is why site liek ‘the Nest’ are so popular.
Really?? Guys!!! This is awesome! In today’s world seeing a group of sooo many happy people doing something which is ONLY positive for a full five minutes? The last time I experienced that I was on Percocet! Lighten up.
Totally agree Eric! Please lovely men: keep marriage proposals simple, honest, private and allow room for a “not yet” and even “no”. unless you are super sure your girlfriend will sway yes… Don’t force an obligation to say it just to save face.
Or, replace the whole proposal process with a series of adult conversations about what you both want out of life, values, visions, passions, morals, ethics, children, etc, etc. etc. and whether your plans include marriage or not. And how you feel about each other. Over time, whether you want to marry each other should be clear, making a proposal unnecessary. Or at best a forgone conclusion formality.
I suspect these two probably did the conversations AND the proposal.
One would think so. Similarly, one would have suspected that of the many highly public, recorded proposals on youtube and where the answer has been no. Evidently, that was not an accurate suspicion.
However, if all those conversations had taken place, there is no reason to make a formal proposal. I would think that the anti-gender-role patrol here would eschew the tradition of men proposing to women, especially the getting down on one knee tradition.
Yeah, this is a really big issue with elaborate proposals like this. If you’re reasonably sure she’ll say yes, fine, but otherwise you’re creating a really awkward situation for her.
Wow. Amazing coordination. But, what if she had said no? Highly public proposals are risky. Glad it worked out after all of that.
Good question! Love it! So much!