Despite being a survivor herself, Amy Logan had no idea how to respond to people who made rape jokes around her. Then she found a way.
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Though I doubt it was the first rape joke I heard, the first I remember was told by a stand-up comedian at a comedy show in 1988. He said guys have female friends because they’re just waiting until she gets drunk someday to get in her pants. The audience roared with laughter. I felt queasy but, at 21, didn’t recognize what that meant. I laughed too.
After the show, “Dave” the comedian came over to talk to me. Though I wasn’t attracted to him sexually or romantically, he seemed harmless and possibly fun to hang out with, so I agreed to meet him for drinks one evening in his nearby town. At some point during the evening out, he must have slipped me something because I fell unconscious and momentarily woke up to him raping me.
♦◊♦
We live in a culture where there are enough people that believe it’s only natural for men to “take advantage” of women, so a joke about that is often considered funny. With that particular joke, Dave warned us exactly who he was – a potential rapist. A faint alarm bell went off inside me but I dismissed the wisdom of my body in deference to the louder messages of my culture, laughed along with the crowd, and the rest is history.
This assault, and the fact that I didn’t report or seek counseling for it, proved to be a defining experience for my ensuing decades, leading me into and out of several abusive relationships, and making my mission in life helping to end violence against women and girls and creating peace between the sexes. I wrote a book, became an activist and started speaking publicly. And I’m still learning.
We live in a culture where there are enough people that believe it’s only natural for men to “take advantage” of women, so a joke about that is often considered funny.
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Last year, an old college friend was in town and invited me with some of our old buddies to dinner at his friend’s restaurant. The owner, a high-profile sports businessman, joined us for the meal, sitting down next to me. For two hours, he ordered dish after dish and regaled us with name-dropping stories from his several decades of glory, never asking anyone a single question about themselves. When we were in the middle of our entrees, and male/female relations came up in the conversation, he exclaimed, “You know what the difference between rape and rapture is?” My stomach clenched. He paused, his eyes sparkling as we each looked up from our plates, and he held us in his grip. He waited another beat. “Salesmanship.”
I froze as he roared with laughter. My mind raced over his words, my heart in my throat. I recognized this as a moment I should be acting like a leader in my field. A few others meekly tsk-tsk’ed him in a good-natured way or stared down at their food politely. No one else actually laughed. “No, it’s true!” he protested. “Think about it!”
I couldn’t think straight. My heart was pounding in my ears. I try not to speak up when I am upset like this because I know my “lizard brain” is in control and my rational, prefrontal cortex is off-line – I will regret it. But while I held my tongue, I berated myself for not speaking up. Did his social stature intimidate me? The fact that it was his restaurant? And he was footing the bill? That I didn’t want to embarrass my old college friend by making a scene? Would I have to split right then, mid-entrée, which I was enjoying? Or was I just ill-prepared to deal with this? I didn’t even know what I should say. Of all people, why didn’t I know how to respond to this guy – swiftly, calmly and incisively?
I ate in silence while shame swept over me and dinner wound to a close. How could I call myself a women’s rights activist and allow such a comment to go unchallenged? I’m a fraud, I thought.
♦◊♦
I spent a few weeks reflecting on how I’d failed to handle that situation in a way I respected and was actually useful to everyone at the table. I realized his joke was not only declaring that women are both gullible and in a perpetual state of victimhood in relationship to men, he was also asserting something far worse about men: they’re all rapists.
If my intent is to transform our culture, not just complain or cause more divisiveness, what do I say? I toiled with that and came up with this: What if I could have just matter-of-factly asked him, “Do you really think that poorly of men?” I’m not sure how he would’ve reacted, but by getting curious and holding a mirror up to him, at least he would have had an opportunity to reflect on another layer of himself I suspect lies well below what he’s used to having confronted. And the others at the table could have witnessed another possible response to such a joke that is neither combative, condoning nor acquiescing. It might have even sparked a generative conversation.
This introspection got me thinking about how important and rare it is that we talk about these sensitive subjects without anger or fear clouding the communication. So I decided to reach out to my rapist “Dave”, almost exactly 25 years after the event, and see how he was doing. If I could talk to him about rape, I could talk to anybody. I found him online and emailed him, asking what impact the rape had had on his life. I promised him I was no longer angry and wasn’t seeking revenge. Just healing, perhaps for us both. My expectations were low.
To my astonishment, Dave emailed me right back, thanking me for reaching out. He said he was slammed with work and would write a longer, more thoughtful reply in a few days. It never came. He probably realized it wasn’t worth the risk. I regret that, though it’s what I expected. Just sending him that message without any shred of rage left in my heart – just curiosity – was empowering enough.
♦◊♦
Perhaps to test my newfound peace of mind, the universe sent me another rape joke a few months later. A male relative of mine in law enforcement emailed me a post on his social media account of a picture of an icy nature scene with text that read: “I think it’s time for Old Man Winter to Get Mother Nature drunk, and have a little fun making Spring…
This time, I didn’t miss a beat. I emailed him: “While I don’t think it was your intention, the message you’re conveying here condones non-consensual sex — sexual assault. As a women’s human rights activist, I participate in global campaigns to try to help people become more aware and sensitive to what constitutes rape and other forms of violence against both women and men. Using alcohol to coerce sex is against the law in most countries, not to mention it’s morally repugnant. I want a world where rape jokes are equally as unacceptable as rape because that will be a world that is much safer for everyone. I hope you will take my words in the educational, loving spirit in which I am sharing them. Thanks for listening.”
He never responded, but finally I felt good about how I handled a rape joke. I held up a mirror to his view of sexual predation as “fun” and funny. I gave him straight feedback and shared my point of view and vision firmly yet compassionately. I wasn’t angry. It doesn’t need to be more complicated.
Since then, I’ve come to discover that not all rape jokes are inherently harmful – when cleverly designed, they could even offer helpful social commentary. But rape jokes are frequently sexist at their core, which appear to exacerbate sexist beliefs and actions in those who hear them. I want a better world than that, where we exalt and celebrate our gender differences and work together in partnership. I’m still learning how to do that myself, and today, I’m hopefully one step closer.
Photo: Flickr/Pete
Amy Logan is an activist, speaker, professional certified coach and the author of The Seven Perfumes of Sacrifice, a novel about the search for the ancient, lost origins of ‘honor killing’ in the Arab world. Find her at www.amylogan.com, Facebook and @AmyAuthor.
I’m currently regretting my own reaction to a rape joke made by a guy I was dating. I did challenge it but I wish I’d asked him why he thought it was funny and explained why it was damaging. It can be so difficult in the moment.
As passing through points out, simply declining to get the joke can go a long way. I typically respond to such with a deadpan gaze right in the eye and “I’m sorry, how is that funny?”
You should reply on the same basis you use to judge all other humor. I think something is really, really wrong about how we treat men if any random 10-year-old can tell a joke where people die, or are permanently disfigured, especially if they are presumed to be male, but we are supposed to filter our jokes about sex. Get over it. If I can DIE in a joke, you can get raped in one. As a gay guy, I can definitely get raped in one. Because we have had an outright onslaught of jokes were boys or despised men… Read more »
Something that’s worked for me, whenever I’ve had the presence of mind to employ it, is asking the joke-teller to explain the joke. “I’m sorry, Joe, I don’t understand – ‘rapture’ means blissful and pleasurable, while ‘rape’ is a despicable act of violence and/or coercion that can result in life-long trauma for the victim. Where does ‘salesmanship’ come into play?” Only once has anyone responded by trying to explain why the joke was funny, and after I replied to three attempts with more questions and asking for more “clarification,” he gave up. Otherwise, the result has always been an uncomfortable… Read more »
“passing through” — I like that approach of yours. Uses curiosity, inquiry, rational thinking and puts the onus back on the joke-teller, requiring them to dissect their “joke”. Maybe in the process, they discover something about themselves or the culture they’re a product of. Thank you for sharing.
Sorry to repeat myself, but this fits better here: This kind of response not only makes you look humorless and condescending, it makes you look narrow and stupid. In a different culture, that did not assume a large part of a woman’s value somehow inheres in her vagina, this phrase would be a proverb about the ability of words to establish a mindset, and the deep impact of mindset on experience. But that requires looking at it as a joke, not a piece of controlling rhetoric. It also involves looking at women’s experience as normal and not as relevant primarily… Read more »
people make jokes about rape? I had no idea and have no idea why anyone would think rape is something to joke about…
Because sometimes they are funny…
I wonder if the rape joke may be a societal way of dealing with a horrific reality. Someone told me that ring around the rosey was a response to the black death. When I grew up, it was a children’s rhyme. Priest rape jokes where fairly common place. It wasn’t until 30 years or so later that the priest sex scandals broke. I think people always knew, but it was too terrible to address. Prison rape jokes, they only happen to bad people. Slutty / drinking rape jokes, what decent woman would do that? Marital rape, well a good wife… Read more »
Amen. A lot of humor is about transgression. If we want to address our transgressive thinking and deal with disapproved thoughts, we can’t protect everyone from being aware anyone has them.
With me, the conversation goes something like this:
Jerk:
Me: You have rape fantasies, don’t you?
Jerk: What? No! (Or whatever.)
Me: That’s why you told the rape “joke;” you need people to laugh at rape because in your twisted mind it validates the fact that you find rape desirable.
Jerk: Hey, chill out! It was just a joke!
Me: And that is a classic passive-aggressive non-response that tends to prove my theory. You’ll excuse me, I prefer to keep better company.
1) Men have rape fantasies, they have murder fantasies, too. Does simply having a fantasy about something make you guilty of it? When did alt the Feminists become Nuns? 2) This kind of response not only makes you look humorless and condescending, it makes you look narrow and stupid. In a different culture, that did not assume a large part of a woman’s value somehow inheres in her vagina, this phrase would be a proverb about the ability of words to establish a mindset, and the deep impact of mindset on experience. But that requires looking at it as a… Read more »
On the dating site OkCupid there is a question that they pose that I found really offensive that asks what is the best kind of first date, “coffee and conversation,” or “drinks and groping?” At first I was going to complain about this, but then I thought about it and realized that it it a wonderful indicator of exactly the man I want to avoid. It is my go-to question. Whether a man thinks that’s funny or he thinks of it honestly as an objective, I want to know in advance so I can block him. Thanks for your essay… Read more »
Thanks, Patty. Hang in there.
See this is the fundamental issue. You see someone having drinks as no longer having real agency or otherwise being reduced to a child and as such being taken advantage of. Most other people believe you still have agency and see drinks and getting drunk as little more then two adults having fun. So when someone said “get her drunk and get her laid” you understand it as Reduce her ability to think and act for herself so she will not be able to reject sex… This is the act of a sexual predator Others might understand it as being… Read more »
Right but we as a society have decided that the intoxicated still have agency.crimes you commit while drunk or high are crimes now, and will not be written off as they might have generations ago. Drunk consent is consent as long as drunk murder is murder. You cannot tighten the riles that affect the group most often punished and relax then for the group that is less often punished and get a result that works.
Sorry typing on a phone…
I had read your first posting about rape jokes. I find them distasteful, not funny and I get uncomfortable. I consider myself a “guy”. I like football, I can act “juvenile” and be one of the “boys”…AND NOT around rape – there is not humor in it. The historical and continuing subjugation of women by religion, politics and socio economic road blocks is not humorous. While I agree with you there can be social commentary in presenting humor, rape is not a topic that can be hilarious. It still says more about the presenter and what he thinks is okay… Read more »
Well said. Several years ago, I was in the company of some of my young friends. We were hanging around the mall as youngsters who can’t legally enter bars are wont to do, and one of the guys made a rape joke. I went off on him. I tore apart his argument and asked what made him think it was okay to say those things. Instead of allowing him to see the folly in his words, though, my anger only justified his attempt at humor–at least in his mind. I was ostracized from the rest of the group for failing… Read more »
While I agree with the bulk of the article, please do remember that the mother nature joke has more connotations than you read into it. I and many people would associate old man winter and mother nature in this context as a couple, ie already together. It therefore doesnt come across as a rape joke at all. The reason many people might assume they are a couple is I think if they arent rapists or looking for rape connotations. Obviously context is important and peoples views and assumptions play a big part in jokes like this.
Liam, non-consensual sex can and does take place within couples and the fact that they are dating or married doesn’t mitigate the wrongdoing of the perpetrating partner. Coercing sex out of someone (with or without alcohol, couple or not) is rape in most parts of the Western world and beyond. There is a lot of material about spousal and marital rape, and about what constitutes consent, available from anti-rape organizations and university law departments on the Internet.
Well said!
So can having drinks knowing full well this will up the chance of myself wanting to have sex ever not be rape? that is always the heart of this argument and it always ends the same way.
I couldn’t tell you the last time I told a rape joke. Even with the experiences I’ve had. I hadn’t started to consider that it might be wrong until I started participating in these discussions on GMP. I want to tell the story of one rape joke and how everyone bought into it even the woman it was directed at. It was in my early 20s so please bear that in mind. I’ve grown since then, but it might prove helpful. I was taking a woman to a comedy club. When I bought the tickets, I was making casual conversation… Read more »
Interestingly, as a man, I had a similar reaction to the Old Man Winter meme as Jordan did – my worldview is dominated by couples drinking heavily together and having consensual sex. I did not assume Mother Nature was being raped in the scenario. Then again, most memes are created for simple humor and wordplay so my mind would not have jumped to a violent scenario in reading that. Regardless, I agree wholeheartedly with the dinner table scenario described and the follow up question – ‘do you really think so little of men?’ Because real men don’t have to slip… Read more »
…yah dating is an exercise in polite lies. Some salesmanship is mandatory…
Dann – I like your response. I don’t think a true predator would respond well and a practiced one would have, unfortunately, turned it around on her and made her feel weak (from my experience with predators). Agree on the 1st paragraph. Agree on the 2nd paragraph. I am a woman and undergoing therapy due to 2 predators. I didn’t see rape in the meme. Anonguy’s response about polite lies makes me ill. I believe it is what most people do, which disgusts me – and I don’t date.
Yah it might make you sick but I doubt you do any better so its probably for the best you don’t date. I would love a world with more honesty but that is just not how it works. I find you very sexy and have hopes of seeing your breasts tends to be a very poor conversation opener… making sure you font come off as a creep or needy or horny or disgusted or lonely or Luke a “nice guy”…. just making a good impression by telling a joke is all selesmanship and small lies or holding back the truth.… Read more »
I was coerced into having sex…I felt like it was rape but knew if I said any thing I would be blamed. I feel so guilty because he is a doctor now and wonder if there were others.
Aggressive sexual behavior by anyone is wrong. It is glamorized in text pictures and everywhere on the web. It is inexcusable and cowardly. There is never an acceptable excuse and one should never force anyone into a position they are uncomfortable with. Sexual aggression is a sign if a very weak and damaged personality. Grow up. Don’t do it. Ever.
If I like my partners to be sexualy aggressive am I a very weak and damaged person?
A girl I’m seeing usually isn’t that uninhibited, or affectionate, unless she’s had a few beers. As in, I’ll get a text later that night from her, or she’ll start to compliment me more. It’s started to actually bother me, but I’m being a little sensitive I think. Because Old Man Winter’s meme doesn’t provide enough information to completely rule it as malicious, as it never states whether or not he drinks with her, nor does it really discuss the demeanor of old man winter or mother nature and their prudence in detail, to connote that rape is taking place… Read more »
I agree with you about the meme. I am female and have been a victim of a sexual predator. I am also a pessimist. I don’t want to bring down the strength and personal empowerment the author feels, yet I also feel that she is pushing her over-sensitivity a bit too much on a general population. I know plenty of women who get more “in the mood” (including myself) with their significant others when they’ve had something to relax them such as alcohol. My husband giving me a wine cooler, a massage, or drawing me a hot bath doesn’t equal… Read more »
Maureen, there is a material difference between having a wine cooler or getting a massage to get in the mood (your words) and getting someone “drunk” in order to have sex with them (the words from the meme) — the latter being alcohol-facilitated sexual assault. If you force yourself on someone, if they are unconscious and cannot consent, or if they are too intoxicated to consent — it’s rape. This is not about my over-sensitive filter as a rape survivor — it’s about the law.
“Either interpretation is valid.”
Is it? Not to get too rhetorical here-
But that I am concerned that this would imply that a 3rd party could then impose their own (subjective) criteria arbitrarily, and so doing, rescind/invalidate the consent of the two (consenting) parties- eg – ‘You may think you both consented, but you’re both wrong, and I’m right.’ It’s not consent that’s arbitrated by a third party/outsider (when both adults there are in agreement), it’s the lack of consent that is arbitrated, when two people are in disagreement.
Hmmm, I hope some Good Men will chime in with support / comments.
@ Abigail I had a story similar to her. I had actually tried to write it a couple times, but it’s not something that always comes easy. A lot of guys deal with it by trying to forget or by convincing themselves that what happened really wasn’t what happened. There are a lot of reasons why men won’t comment on a story like this. They may feel their voice is inadequate. They may feel like so many in society seem to suggest that when a woman is violated by a man, the last thing she needs to hear are men’s… Read more »
John, thank you for sharing your moving story. You provided something that is very important to understand but that not everyone fully grasps: sexual abuse or violence can be perpetrated by and be traumatic for both sexes. I wish that hadn’t happened to you but since it did, I do hope you can find some healing from your anger and pain. I encourage you to seek counseling which many survivors benefit from. Best of luck to you. ~ Amy
Great article!
What a beautiful, thoughtful article. What touched me most was your inner reaction of berating yourself for “being a fraud”. I saw it differently. I connected with how hard it can be to stand up and be honest from a centered place. It’s easy to react. I was just talking with a client who was speaking about “responding” not “reacting”. Thank you for modeling the way.
Thanks, Nathalie. I guess I felt like a “fraud” because I was considering myself an activist, yet couldn’t muster the courage or capacity to speak up at a ripe moment that others could learn from. I think I can do better henceforth in “responding”, but only time will tell.
Amy (and Nathalie) — I think it’s such an important point about the ‘feeling like a fraud’. As a feminist and an activist, I’ve felt bad when i’ve used the “i have a boyfriend” defense to shoo off an overly aggressive guy (when I didn’t have a boyfriend). I felt like I SHOULD stand my ground and assert my right as an autonomous person to have my “no” mean no. But when you are in that situation, sometimes react as a human, and not an activist, and you just want the b.s. to stop! I think it’s unfair when women’s… Read more »
Sorry – off topic, but i also emailed a guy who’d refused to take no as an answer with me, two years after the event. I described what I’d thought and felt on the day, the impact it had on my life. i didn’t call it rape. He responded by saying that he felt like an asshole, he remembered taking things too far, took full responsibility and was truly sorry. The relief was immense, and I haven’t pursued it with him any further (was fourteen years ago now – I’ve even deleted the email). I’m sorry this ‘comedian’ doesn’t have… Read more »
Hi Kate, thanks for sharing your story. I’m glad you got an apology at least and hope it helped heal the wounds. Take good care.
*topic
Such a good top to raise a conversation about. I am continually astounded when I hear men nonchalantly make rape jokes … in particular in the presence of women. I am one to speak up and I usually say straight out: “That is seriously NOT funny. There is no one single thing ‘funny’ about rape and violence against women.” … I don’t know how to say it “softer” than that. And I guess I resent the fact that I’m supposed to. I resent that I, as a woman, am expected to sit there and take the implied insult to women… Read more »
I can’t agree enough with you. It’s never failed to amaze me that the tables can be flipped so quickly when an offensive joke is called out and the joke-teller’s integrity is on the line. Observe it carefully, because I am convinced it’s a pre-meditated social ‘plan b’ – how to act like an offended victim when people are offended by YOU. I think it’s a defence mechanism that works for the perpetrator because again, he deflects ownership of his material and instead forces the spotlight on his victim. In my opinion, it’s so sadistic and manipulative (even manipulating/challenging, other… Read more »
People always seem to attack the credibility of the person calling out a transgression, and they ALWAYS seem to make it into a “you’re the bad one for hurting ME” even if it’s just “But my first amendment rights!”