Joanna Schroeder advocates both individual responsibility and an understanding of the realities of the society we live in.
Winter in West Michigan can be dreadful. Snow falls almost continuously due to “Lake Effect”, and as you can imagine, it’s really flippin’ cold. It was one of those days: grey, bitter cold, and dumping snow. My father and I were driving on a rural road. A rusty pickup truck squealed to the side of the road in front of us, and out jumped a young woman holding a baby in a snowsuit. There were no houses in sight and a storm was coming in. The pickup squealed off, its tires spinning and spitting snow into the air in front of us.
My father and I looked at each other. I was about fourteen. He turned to me and said, “We’re going to ask that lady if she needs a ride (there were no cell phones at this time, of course), but I want you to ask her so she’s not scared.” I understood.
We pulled up, I asked her, and she replied, “Aww no, honey, thanks. He’ll be back.” She smiled at me, but her face was puffy and streaked with tears. We drove away, but we looped back around to be sure she was fine, and of course she was climbing back into that truck just a few minutes later. My father pulled the car over after the truck was gone and explained to me why he had me ask the lady if she wanted help. He said he would’ve offered help regardless, but she’d be more likely to take it from a man with a female in the car. He also said that I shouldn’t get in a car with a man I didn’t know. I already knew that, of course.
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Last week, after holiday shopping on the crazy-busy Third Street Promenade in Santa Monica, I went for lunch alone at Tender Greens. This restaurant is set up cafeteria-style, where the majority of the seating is at a bunch of long tables. While in line, a nice guy said something to me like, “Isn’t this restaurant cool?” and we chatted a bit about how awesome it is that restaurants focusing on local goods are sprouting up.
I took my tray and sat down, and after he paid, he sat down by me at one of these long tables. Not directly across, but diagonal. We ate quietly for a bit, but eventually got into a really interesting conversation about the music his record label makes and how he chooses to run his label in a socially-responsible manner. I talked to him about the GMP and solicited him to submit an article about an album that a tough-guy singer is about to release that focuses around the pain of having been bullied when he was younger. We shared emails on our phones and were off on our separate ways.
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So why did I tell you these two relatively uneventful stories? Because I’m trying to pull together both sides of this debate about the Presumption of Male Guilt (a special section of GMP I recently co-led), and say that Hugo Schwyzer is right… and so is Lisa Hickey.
In a recent Twitter debate between a bunch of people, including Tom Matlack, Hugo Schwyzer, and two well-respected feminists, Jennifer Pozner and Amanda Marcotte, Hugo asked Tom “your daughter has a choice: she can accept a ride from a strange woman or strange man. Do you care? What advice do you give?” to which Tom replied, “I would not tell her to base it on gender. Don’t get in cars with strangers period…” I think this is foolish, stubborn advice based in a theoretical argument rather than reality. There are times in which we need help, we all need help, and though Lisa is so right when she says, “The best way to overcome fear is to gain competence” in her piece, When Women Fear Men, that is not always an option.
I flashed back to what my father taught me both with his words and his actions that day on the side of that country road in a snow storm. Sometimes we have to ask for help, Tom, and sometimes there are only strangers around. There may be a violent-looking woman and a very kind-looking man to choose from, and in that case your daughter should defy gender stereotypes. She should follow her instincts. But in general, your daughter should play the numbers and know that if she is going to be raped or murdered, it is most likely going to be by a man and make a choice based upon that.
My father, without naming it, understood that in Rape Culture, he was presumed guilty despite being completely well-intended. He was willing to shoulder that burden and wasn’t angry about not being innately trusted.
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I think what is misunderstood about Hugo’s message in In Rape Culture, All Men Are Guilty Until Proven Innocent, is that in recognizing the reality of a world in which women are (in general) physically weaker and the police and courts systems are (in general) dominated by men, you do not have to feel guilty. You do not need to feel bad about yourself because of what other men have done. There is a difference between Feminists trying to make you feel bad about being a man (which is dead wrong) and us asking you to recognize the way most women feel, and asking you to respect that.
Hugo, it seems to me, is calling men forth to demand more from one another. Sure, you shouldn’t have to do this, but this is the way society changes. As a feminist, I ask women to stop doing the things that damage society and ourselves. Yes, we are complicit too. It isn’t about self-hate, it’s about taking responsibility. The woman in that pickup was probably in an abusive relationship (whether it was him abusing her, or them abusing one another) and she needed to take responsibility for being there and needed to change her life, especially for her baby. That’s her job. Resources are available, and it’s our job, as a society, to offer those resources. We all have responsibility here, and feeling guilty (on a micro level) is merely going to cripple our ability to make change (on a macro level).
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To Lisa’s point, in her rebuttal Rapists, I have Known, “Presuming guilt in males is not good for males and it is not good for females”, being suspicious of men does harm all of us in a day-to-day way. When I was in line at Tender Greens, I could’ve assumed this guy, Jacob, was a perv or a creep or only out to sleep with me. But on a micro level, on a personal level, I had a strong feeling he wasn’t. I trust my feelings. Even if he had a sliver of intention to hook up with me, all I had to do was say “no” (I’m married). We were in a restaurant in a bustling city and I am an intelligent and resourceful woman.
I assumed the best about Jacob, and I was rewarded by meeting a nice person who regarded me as a human being and a professional. Maybe someday he’ll become a contributor to The Good Men Project and he will show us yet another way in which men are good. Am I defying what Hugo says about Rape Culture in doing what Lisa says we should do (not pre-judge men, become competent myself)? Am I denying Rape Culture by trusting a man, any man? No, Rape Culture is real and Good Men are real.
I don’t intend to speak for this relative stranger, Jacob, in saying that he took responsibility for Rape Culture in his short interaction with me last week. But in my mind, he did. He spoke to me as an equal, he did not step into my personal space, he did not mention anything about my physical appearance, he didn’t touch me or follow me, or ask for my number (I volunteered my email after talking about contributing to GMP someday). I don’t think he treated me like I was a man—I think he treated me like I am a human. And, if I may speak for women for just a moment, that is what we want.
I think this is something most of you guys do every day. As Hugo maintains, “Good guys hold themselves and other men accountable, in public and in private.” Good guys act how Jacob acted, and they hold other men accountable to act the same. Those simple behaviors are the start of a revolution.
“recognizing the reality of a world in which women are (in general) physically weaker and the police and courts systems are (in general) dominated by men, you do not have to feel guilty” There is no escaping it once a light has shined on to your privilege as a male, at least for me there was no escape of guilt. And, I would also think that I am not alone in this. A well-meaning, caring, compassionate individual who has been conditioned to treat women as inferior, sex objects as a way part of life gets a huge dose of reality… Read more »
Rape Culture is real and Good Men are real. Three quarters right. Rape is real. Good men are real. However, “Rape Culture” is a brazen feminist lie, consciously known to be a lie by all who propoagate it, and created solely for the purpose of falsely implicating the vast innocent majority of men, so as to put “all men” in the oppressor box for neo-marxist political reasons. In particular, the lie-meme of Rape Culture embodies slanderous accusation that the vast non-rapist majority of men are somehow complicit because men… (a) could stop the rapists if we really wanted to (SELF… Read more »
Hey you know what? I give up. If I had a daughter and she was stranded I would rather she take the ride with the woman. I fucking understand. But that doesn’t make it any easier to wake up every fucking morning to a world where I get treated like a default rapist. It doesn’t make it any easier to see women visibly intimidated by me and giving me suspicious looks just for being. I accept this fucking mantle of presumed guilt and will continue to walk on eggshells around women because they are so fucking scared of me. But… Read more »
So the world you seem content to live in, Jimmy, is a world where it’s ok for all women to assume all men are rapists? And it’s ok for all men to assume all women will falsely accuse them? Cause that’s not a rational world. All men are not rapists. In fact all rapists are not always men! All women are not false accusers, and in fact all false accusers are not always women! There are, come to find out, people in the world who don’t rape or falsely accuse. Lots of them. And there are people who rightly accuse… Read more »
Honestly, it’s a safer world when one trusts no one else. You might be surprised to hear that I actually have friends – I’m married, for god’d sake! The fact that I don’t and I can’t trust others in no way precludes me from forming relationships.
Now, am I happy about it? Not really, but this is what works for me right now. Being vulnerable means that hurt and betrayal are inevitable. When I get to the point of feeling strong enough to put up with betrayal, I’ll look into learning to trust.
Interesting point. And to clarify it with others: Would we say it’s okay to play the numbers with a black man? Because that dynamic works the same way. I did like the OP’s reference to abusive relationships and how the victim should take some responsibility of getting out of it. But yeah, I started getting lost at the whole “play the numbers” bit. For instance, it’s a common argument to “play the numbers” on domestic abuse campaigns, so they show a girl crying and a man shaking his fist. But that statistic is something like 45-55, with men only being… Read more »
So… then every prejudiced person on the planet is right? I mean, they make this same argument – play the odds: a black man is more likely to be a mugger than a white one! Or, hey, a gay man is more likely to molest my male child than a straight one… so I have to assume the gay guy down the hall is a bad person. The reality of it is, the chance that any of those folks are dangerous is vanishingly small. That guy walking down the street late at night? White or black, chances are that he’s… Read more »
Hey Soullite
Just so you know, this is an old article written by me. I hope you’ll look into things I’ve written since then.
I hear your rage, I really do. I believe there is a middle ground between what you’re saying here and what I’m saying in the original article.
https://goodmenproject.com/author/joanna-schroeder/
Yeah, I see now that it was from a while back. It was just trending, and I didn’t read the time stamp. To be honest, I didn’t even know this site existed last December.
I’m not that angry, though I can understand how I’d come off that way. I’ve never had a personality that came across well on the internet. Whenever I try to sound pleading, it only ever comes off as enraged. Mostly it’s just frustration. I don’t get why people spend so much energy trying to rationalize their emotions (which aren’t rational), instead of trying to understand them.
I wish I hadn’t read this article. I used to like you, Joanna; now I don’t trust you anymore.
When ever I read about this story I can’t but wonder. Did the painting of men as perps and women as angels help to kill this little girl.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Victoria_Stafford
She was abducted by a young, pretty white women and now according to court testimony killed by her as well.
Was Torri Stafford taught to not trust men BUT it is ok to trust women.
As much I agree on an intellectual level that individuals should “think the best” of people offering assistance in the instance of a women getting a lift from a strange man I think it is best for her to err on the side of caution and decline the assistance. We don’t live in a perfect world and although the majority of people we meet have good intentions it is tricky to tell them apart from the few who don’t and sometimes the best strategy is assume the worse. For the indignant MRAs in the discussion let’s flip this a little… Read more »
You don’t get it. MRAs don’t tell men to get prenups, they tell men not to marry at all. Prenups, well, they don’t really mean much, hell, you should be careful even when you didn’t get married. The system we live in (and the SYSTEM is the problem, not the woman, indeed, the same would go for homosexuals) doesn’t care much about prenups; judges, and lawyers will happily argue and accept that the prenup exists because you’re a misogynist who doesn’t trust women, and the prenup is null-and void. Hell, don’t be too generous in a relationship without being married;… Read more »
Honestly, if we were talking about any other form of prejudice (and that is what we’re talking about here), would you hew to this line of thought? If we were talking about some wannabe klansman, would you say ‘Well, he could still be a good guy. It’s not like his opinions are the law or anything’?
Would any other group of people be told that they don’t have a right to resent people who are clearly prejudiced toward them?
Soullite, I’m not saying that prejudice or stereotyping is right. I think I made it clear that if you as an individual decide to act on that prejudice then you take the responsibility of that action. Using the example you posit in your post below, if an individual assumes that a black man is more likely to mug him than a white man and therefore avoids him then he is making a judgement born of his prejudice and will be considered racist which is a consequence of his action. A women not accepting assistance from a man because she thinks… Read more »
It does rob me of my freedom. I’d like to be a nicer person than I am, and I can’t be, because I have to worry that people will see that and assume (like the author of this article) that I’m a ‘pervert’. I can’t be the person I’d like to be – one who doesn’t harm anyone – because women will blame me for it. How is that any different then men trying to decide for women how women should act or be? And tell me, how do you separate these issues? You think a woman like that doesn’t… Read more »
It does rob me of my freedom. I’d like to be a nicer person than I am, and I can’t be, because I have to worry that people will see that and assume (like the author of this article) that I’m a ‘pervert’. I can’t be the person I’d like to be – one who doesn’t harm anyone – because women will blame me for it. How is that any different then men trying to decide for women how women should act or be? And tell me, how do you separate these issues? You think a woman like that doesn’t… Read more »
In regards your last comment. 1st paragraph: It does not rob you of your freedom or ability to be nice, that is your choice. I have had situations where I felt I was unfairly characterised by someone and I called them out on it. It made them look silly and I went on my merry way, if someone treats me like shit and won’t listen to reason then I choose not to hang out with them. There is no point blaming other people because it takes away any of your own power and ability to direct yourself. If however it… Read more »
@ Jill “How many MRAs would want their partners to sign a prenuptial agreement before marriage, not because they didn’t love them but because they were concerned that in the case of a divorce their partner would turn out to be in the vindictive minority of women you would take them to the cleaners? If you answered yes to the prenup then I suggest you stow your indignation.” For the majority of guys, this isn’t an issue. I know some guys who were “taken to the cleaners”, but they didn’t sign prenups. As for me and most guys, it’s probably… Read more »
@John Gottman Anderson. I don’t see how you’re example is applicable. The offer of help from the hypothetical man, as described in the article, is merely a kind gesture and not that man’s job. The declining of the offer is based on the hypothetical women “assuming the worst” of the man. My example is a based on the hypothetical man “assuming the worst” of the hypothetical women, therefore an adequate counter example. I’m assuming same gendered medical care for intimate procedures is based more on embarrassment than fear of rape; I have no evidence for this so if you have… Read more »
@ JH My eyes play tricks on me. Based on what I remember reading on the patient modesty/privacy blogs, the reasons people request same gender care varies. Some have cited past female perpetrated sexual abuse. Some have stated that female nurses have in the past been less concerned with their modesty issues such as leaving the curtains open when performing the procedure or leaving them more exposed than necessary. Some implied that the nurses got off on it. It sometimes seemed to stem from the nurse’s desire to be in control or to have power over her patient. Things eerily… Read more »
I’ve never heard of any abuse like that by nurses, do you have any references for the story? If it is true then it would be a terrible abuse of power by the nurses and such a issue would be worthy of its own article. Have you thought about writing up on the subject and sending it into good men project editors for a featured article?
@JH If I remember correctly he posted as flyer58. Going from memory by what he wrote, it occurred when he was in his teens. I gather that he is in his 50s now. He got an erection during a medical examination with a female nurse and she proceeded to beat on his testicles. He mentioned that this caused permanent damage to his testicles. An easier example to find would be then female ENT who gave unconscious male patients genital exams. http://www.outpatientsurgery.net/issues/2010/01/the-ENT-surgeon-who-gave-genital-exams I tried to find the original news source that put this out. A link provided on another site was… Read more »
Those who have no assets should be a more worried about marriage and divorce than those who are loaded. Those who are loaded can afford the alimony and child support, those who are poor do not, and that means you go to jail.
A couple of points: 1) I’m female. My car breaks at a meeting where I don’t know anybody. Two strangers offer me a ride. One is male and one female. I trust them equally, in the sense that I know neither of them from Adam and in general I think men and women are about equally likely to do evil things for no reason. If they’re average, they’re both bigger and stronger than I am. If they’re average, the man is MUCH bigger and stronger than I am, the woman only slightly. There’s a roughly 90% chance that the man… Read more »
I’d be nervous at both of them, how do I know they aren’t carrying a weapon? Everyone is dangerous with a weapon even the 110lb 5ft tall female. I can’t be certain there are no weapons, and weapons are used quite a lot in crime so size differences are far less important. Here’s one for you. The anti-abuse campaigns for quite a while had the 99% of rapists were men moniker, most child sex abuse was perpetrated by men, etc. You have the option of a male, or female child-carer. Which do you choose and why? Now lets do something… Read more »
>There are vulnerable spots on the body that require very little force to cause a lot of pain, the >testicles for men can be hurt SO EASY and it hurts bigtime, putting most men into the fetal position. Never, ever, ever, ever go for the balls unless you have no other choice left: 1. Sensitivity in the balls varies from time to time, one moment it may be extremely sensitive, the other times it will barely feel anything. Hitting it may not do much at all. 2. Men going into a fetal position is a Hollywood myth, men usually grab… Read more »
Hi, Archy — You wrote: I’d be nervous at both of them, how do I know they aren’t carrying a weapon? Everyone is dangerous with a weapon even the 110lb 5ft tall female. I can’t be certain there are no weapons, and weapons are used quite a lot in crime so size differences are far less important. It makes sense to me that the possibility of someone having a weapon would make the physical-size thing less of an issue. My working hypothesis, however, is that any given random guy is more likely than a given random woman to be armed.… Read more »
Thank-you, funnily enough you reassured me that you aren’t purposely singling out men and it varies upon situation, it’s interesting to see you choose men for the protection as well. I do wonder if people have much fear of their partner, if we go purely by statistics then I’d feel safer around strangers than I would around a girlfriend. What point do the stats become unhelpful though, this question burns in my mind at the moment. The size difference issue I think is reinforced too much, our society pushes size as the big benefit but I wonder if size is… Read more »
@Amaranth “I’m going to take the ride with the woman. It isn’t because I think she’s a better person. It’s partly because I think she has less reason to hurt me, and partly because I’m betting she CAN”T hurt me. This has nothing to do with misandry.” Sure, it does unless as a man, you believe a woman would be more likely to hurt me because there is a 90% chance she’d have some sexual attraction to me and only a 10% chance she wouldn’t. “2) Guys who are upset with Johanna, here: a thought experiment— You’re walking through an… Read more »
I really appreciate this article. It would be really nice to think that human beings could recognize the feelings and needs of eachother. That’s what this article speaks to. The needs of human beings. If all beings were feeling supported and getting their needs met, then we would not need a feminist revolution. It is crazy to me, but true, that some don’t see a need for any enlightenment on the issues of women when it seems so obvious to me (as a woman). We have to be able to step out of our own woundologies long enough to see… Read more »
Funny, you claim we should recognize the feelings and needs of EACHOTHER, and promptly spend the rest of your post talking only about the desires of women and feminism and completely disregard the needs, and feelings of men.
Funny enough, the MRM is the only movement that actually brings enlightenment on the issues of women; and actually champions for women as equals, not a pampered, entitled status of supremacy.
Apologizes to Joanna and Julie, but I’d have left you for dead too. Not because I’m a callous human being or want to prove some MRA equality point, but because of the assumptions that I would make. The assumption being that if you declined my offer for help that it is because you didn’t need it. It would have never occurred to me that you were in fear of me. Now that I know better, I’m not as certain, but I’m leaning toward leaving you to your fate. I still don’t see myself assuming that you needed help, but were… Read more »
Part of being an adult man is knowing that adult women are fearful; the second part of being an adult man is not owning the fears of women. I will offer assistance to a person, women or man, and if they refuse then I just move on. They are strangers after all, whether they live or die, flourish or fall doesn’t directly impact my portion of the global village. I understand it is important to the stranded individual but I will not take ownership of their insecurities. Part of resisting the feminist rape culture meme is refusing to be swayed… Read more »
Well, written, it’s foolish to tie yourself into a knot for something you can’t control.
I would ask the author and other supporters of misandry….which is what you’re talking about. Do the same rules apply for blacks vs whites vis-a-vis criminal activity ? Is it ok to not trust blacks because they are statistically more violent ? Do you support the same thought process about muslim’s ? Is it ok to not trust a muslim because it’s more statistically likely they could be carrying a bomb ? Do you support racial profiling ? When I was growing up, I remember hearing the message that women and in fact all people should not be stereotyped because… Read more »
Of course. Men are always put in a double bind by feminists. Evil if you do, evil if you don’t. Plenty of examples around but I think the way they turned on Tom is as good as any. Men are evil if they are “manginas” and evil if they are anti-feminists.
Recently, the site had an article about professional men not being willing to act as mentors to female subordinates because of the fear that they’d be accused of inappropriate conduct. Here, the article essentially gives another example of “women are going to treat men as attackers by default.” Again, the rational man’s conclusion would be the same: avoid all contact. In this case, smart men should refuse to offer assistance to ANY woman, again for fear that they would be treated as an attacker. Curiously, though, the mentorship article still managed to blame men for not ignoring such fears and… Read more »
Btw? If anyone actually thinks that feminism is an equality movement still, please tell me why I just had to define “discrimination” to a feminist and tell her why it was immoral. Please tell me why a member of a so-called equality movement can come up with an argument like, “but treating men worse than women is OK if I get an advantage out of it” and have no clue at all why anyone might think that was wrong.
SERIOUSLY?
Come on this is just farcical now.
Not being trusted by someone who doesn’t know you isn’t discrimination. Taking a ride from someone isn’t giving them something (like a job, or scholarship or what have you). Giving a ride to someone isn’t a right or even a privilege. It’s doing a favor, and missing out on being able to do a favor for someone does NOT make anyone disadvantaged in any way. It would be nice if women did not need to weigh and judge and worry about whether someone offering to do a favor might have ulterior motives. It would be nice, but the world being… Read more »
“Discrimination is the prejudicial treatment of an individual based on their membership in a certain group or category. It involves the actual behaviors towards groups such as excluding or restricting members of one group from opportunities that are available to another group.” “Educating” others that they should be more fearful of one group to the point it has very real impacts on them in society is discrimination. You don’t have to take a ride from anyone, but the mere fact you use prejudice to profile that person IS the problem. Eg, fearing ALL muslims over terrorism, fearing ALL men as… Read more »
So you think it is OK to eg. follow black women around your shop because they might be shoplifters? Or arrest Latino looking people because they just might be illegals? Or stop and frisk black people in New York because they might be selling drugs? Or tell gay men they can’t work with children because they might be pedophiles?
Just because the bigotry is your bigotry doesn’t make it OK.
All those things you list are aggressive, overt acts someone takes against another individual. They are not decisions made by someone to protect their own safety. Those are actions taken with the backing of an entire power structure that you expect to back you up if you find the person has done something wrong, not the action of someone on their own (a person who if they WERE sexually assaulted, is likely to find their lives significantly worse if they DID report it to that same power structure). Equating “not getting in the car with a stranger” with tactics that… Read more »
You are not the first person to justify their prejudices. All those things you list are aggressive, overt acts You think prejudice is alright as long as it is subtle? And telling your kids to fear a certain minority group counts as “subtle”? They are not decisions made by someone to protect their own safety They all are. Icky people are frightening. They have cooties. You just don’t know what they will do. Fear is always somewhere around. But in any case would you say it’s OK for someone to teach kids that black people were dangerous? Or Jews? Or… Read more »
It’s none of your business what my political identity is (of course I’m a feminist). That’s a deflection (as is calling me a sexist). The fact is, this entire argument by you and others is one giant deflection. If you can find one single “wrong”, “bad”, or “sexist” thing to point to, well, then all the arguments are invalid, “look, someone discriminated about the poor menz.” The sheer fact that this is the thing you harp on about puts you on the wrong side of the argument. Oppression, prejudice and discrimination are big, institutional issues that need to be addressed… Read more »
Of course the harm is “an academic thing” to you. Your white female privilege means you will never suffer from this sort of prejudice. You’re at the top of the hierarchy. Instead you are the one with power hurting other people. So now you are asking what is the big deal about discrimination? What is the harm in hurting people from minority groups? Why is everyone down on me using my privileges to step on peoples necks? The answer to this requires you learn a skill called empathy. It is not my place to teach you that. I can’t do… Read more »
Deflect, deflect, attack, make stuff up, provoke, make a nice big strawman, set it on fire (your *victims*, really?). I’m not going to rise to it, because I know you don’t know the slightest thing about me. I can tell something about you though. You like to paint yourself as the heavy. At least twice in this thread. I’m not seeing any substantive contribution to a discussion on whether there’s a real issue here or just hot air. When feminists (and others who value human rights) discuss institutional oppression, discrimination, prejudice, there’s very real explanations of WHY this hurts people,… Read more »
When feminists … discuss institutional oppression, discrimination, prejudice I don’t think I’ve ever seen that. Feminists just blather on about “the patriarchy” or “male privilege” or “rape culture” and never have any actual issues. I keep asking people to name a specifically feminist issue and I never get an answer. I’m not going to give you an answer because there’s a dozen other places on this very thread where people have already done it for you. To say nothing of the rest of the web site. I’m not going to give an answer because to any human being with a… Read more »
Institution discrimination? You mean affirmative action quotas that have women hired as fire fighters even when they can’t make the physical requirements? No, I don’t mean the male physical requirements, I’m talking about the lowered female physical requirements (which incidentally is already getting women hired that are physically incapable of performing the job), they still have to be hired. As a result endangering the lives of her mostly male colleagues (but they’re just men right), the people she’s supposed to save, and her own. I’m sure you and other feminists are fighting against this institutionalized discrimination, right? Or how about… Read more »
The harms. Men less likely to offer help, a young child died and the last person to see the child was a man who was afraid that offering help would have him seen as pedo/childabducting monster and the child later drowned (I believe he only noticed her alone, not in or near water until it was too late). Severe lack of male representation in childcare and primary/preschool jobs, even the Scouts I believe are having a hard time finding adults. Male parents getting dirty looks at playgrounds, accusations of abuse being enough to destroy a career and reputation, airlines forcing… Read more »
All those come from women being wary of getting in a car with a stranger or not smiling at every guy they see? Does that seem likely? Or maybe they are caused by institutional paranoia (companies do not want to be sued for a real or imagined abuse case) and conservative social values (childcare is an acceptable menial job for women, and women who are afraid of men will be more constrained in their behavior and options). Which one of those is more universal? There are plenty of women who would behave cautiously when alone with a stranger, but would… Read more »
You really can’t be serious can you? It’s not the fact women aren’t getting into cars or smiling at strangers, it’s the reason WHY they aren’t if it’s towards men only that matters. I don’t expect anyone to jump into strangers cars, but I also don’t expect people to start profiling most likely abusers whilst conveniently ignoring some hard hitting truths. “There are plenty of women who would behave cautiously when alone with a stranger, but would also have no problem letting a man care for their kids. ” Read the comments and even articles on the goodmenproject, we have… Read more »
I stand by what I originally said. Feminists object to people (I’ve only seen presumably male posters saying this, but obviously that’s not verifiable) characterizing certain actions as “sexist” or “prejudiced”. Those actions were specifically things like “not getting into a car with a strange male” (in this article) or “not smiling at every passing male” (in Hugo’s article). Presumably we can see the difference between those things and things like “teaching children to fear adult males”, yes? Also, we can see the difference between an adult woman and a child? Between institutions and individuals? Between one person’s safety concerns… Read more »
I support and expect feminism to exist, we need masculism and feminism to work together along with the various racial rights groups, etc. The combined effort becomes equalism. “Accusing an entire movement of bad faith and lack of empathy accomplishes exactly zero.” Exactly, and accusing and treating men to be of bad character in profiling them as less trustworthy than a female accomplishes not zero, but a negative effect on males in our culture. It also causes a backlash by people offended by the notion of men being more dangerous so lets teach our kids to avoid them, or teach… Read more »
Do any feminists exist who say men should be treated as well as women. If there were any would they be savagely attacked by the others?
As the decent people abandon the feminist movement the remainder is getting more and more obvious.
Actually, there was a group of people in my old neighborhood; I think they were Mormons, who told me that they were required by their faith to do good deeds. I don’t remember if it was monthly or weekly. I’m just bringing this up because denying someone the opportunity to do a good deed, may very well be denying them an opportunity to practice their faith. I also heard about a group of monks who go around begging to give people an opportunity to do a good deed. I don’t know if that would rise to the level of discrimination,… Read more »
Joanna, your article basically comes down to saying that it’s perfectly moral to be a racist or a sexist if you can get some personal advantage from it for yourself. Do you think that is a fair summary of your reasoning in the article? And if it is not please say how your reasoning is different. Do you realise that such a perverse logic would undermine just about every advance that liberals have ever made in fighting prejudices against just about any group? Endless examples could be made but let’s pick one you might “get”. Currently the law says that… Read more »
“My father, without naming it, understood that in Rape Culture, he was presumed guilty despite being completely well-intended. He was willing to shoulder that burden and wasn’t angry about not being innately trusted. ” I made that point in comments behind BOTH the articles Mrs. Schroeder referenced. Including steps to simply “defuse” concerns over help offered by an unknown, lone male with at least SOME style and grace. Let it be known though, that I despise the term “rape culture”. It is an ugly, desperate term for an easily understandable concern for all women’s safety from either gender’s reasoned viewpoint.… Read more »
Thanks Uncle Woolfie! And I’ve enjoyed all your commentary. Would love to work with you someday and completely understand your sentiments about the term Rape Culture. I, too, don’t love it, but I’m not sure of a great synonym for this phrase. Completely open to brainstorming a new phrase with you.
“male threat culture”….will keep trying onna back burner…I wanna drive a stake through this one REAL bad.
I’m back… I batted that comment out real quick…as a matter of fact TOO quick and too tense for the kind, warm response you gave me, Miss Joanna ( a term of cordial affection, forgive me). This seems to be a trademark that the entire staff and now some of its major contributors have seen fit to grace me with. This goes all the way up to Lisa Hickey & particularly Ryan, the managing editor, has given a guy that dropped in here like a rock, bitchin’ about no permanent “divorce” section… I think you should know that I’ve been… Read more »
Thanks again U.W.
I think that most of us who are contributors or involved at the GMP are incredibly kind people all working toward a single goal – making the world better for everyone and creating a safe place for men’s voices and opinions (when stated respectfully). Thanks for being a strong but kind voice in the madness.
My good woman, before you bestow “Captain Nice” status on me, you might wanna look at my responses to Mr. Byron over at Lisa’s article….
https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/when-women-fear-men/
Simple question
Why does female vulnerability translate into male accusation
If my presence as a man causes you to feel vulnerable, how am I to know that
and respond appropriately. If I default to accepting a womans violent definition of me
why would I want to be around women at all, doesnt it just make me vulnerable to your fears, assertions and eventual accusations. If your fears and beliefs are based on statistics do they decline when statistics do.
A lot of feminists are sex segregationists. They want to divide men and women so they never meet up. So they spend a lot of time sewing fear and hate. Your response is perfectly as expected I guess.
““My father, without naming it, understood that in Rape Culture, he was presumed guilty despite being completely well-intended. He was willing to shoulder that burden and wasn’t angry about not being innately trusted. ” Then your father had been brainwashed and sadly failed to realize it. Being presumed guilty is NEVER acceptable and should NEVER be permitted to go unchallenged. Most men are simply not going to accept being treated as second-class citizens (or worse, criminals) on the basis of their gender. If feminists were still concerned with equality and justice, they wouldn’t accept this situation either. Instead, many seem… Read more »
David, take a deep breath and relax.
This article needs a disclaimer like this: WARNING : not all women are like this one! Because I come away from reading this very angry indeed at women. And it isn’t their fault. It’s not all women who are this disgusting and sexist. You know what? If it was me in the car and Joanna was the one stuck in the snow going to freeze to death I think I’d tell her. Oh what? There’s no nice woman to save you today? You want to get rescued by the potential rapist do you? Oh I am sorry but I couldn’t… Read more »
I understand that frustration. I am a very tall, very large male, I am aware it’s quite intimidating however I’m more likely to belt an abuser up than ever harm an innocent. Where they see potential rapist, they should also see potential savior, potential good samaritan. I have first-aid training and I am quite aware of not only violence against women, but violence against men yet automatically we think potential rapist, potential negative, even though it’s more likely to be potential help. I don’t pick up hitch hikers, if kids are lost I sit there worrying like hell over what… Read more »
Ironically if all women were like Joanna they’d never be a choice between a man and a woman because the Joanna’s of the world would never risk rescuing anybody. What if that hitchhiker is a potential rapist? It’s a non-zero risk. Her father was willing to take that risk, even with his kid in the car, on a perfect stranger that he had an inkling might be in a violent relationship. Would Joanna? And yes as a practical matter since it’s men who take the risks and do the rescuing, any woman who has a knee-jerk prejudice against men is… Read more »
The logic in this is actually scary but true. I fear for the future with how stats are used in ways to damage our relationships with men. What’s sad is usually the people who do it, end up speaking out about how bad it is men don’t help with the kids and cries of sexism, gender roles, etc. Yet they can’t see how they are reinforcing those gender roles which assume a woman is a better child carer.
Of course not all men who offer a stranded woman a ride are rapists. But some are (read the news if you don’t believe me). Don’t you guys understand, why would I ever take a risk that has even a small chance of getting me raped and killed? (Especially if I have other options , like calling a friend to pick me up.) If you were in my shoes, would the risk be worth it? Ask yourself that. Seriously, really think about it. If there is an 0.1% chance that the person offering you the ride will kill you, do… Read more »
Do you understand what discrimination is? I feel I have to explain it to you. OK. Many people feel that treating some groups of people badly just because of how they happened to be born is unfair and immoral. For example someone who says they will hire only white people is discriminating on the basis of race. That is called “racism”. You are advocating discriminating on the basis of gender. That is called “sexism”. Don’t you guys understand, why would I ever take a risk that has even a small chance of getting me raped and killed? Because your actions… Read more »
If the choice is my safety or making some kind of “point” to myself about how I am not discriminatory then I will take my personal safety. I was just reading in the paper about a girl in a earby city who accepted a ride from a guy after her car broke down and he tried to rape her. Luckily she escaped. I don’t know the stats but I’ve read enough cases like that to conclude it is not particularly uncommon.
So basically you want to criticise others for sexism but when you do it then it’s OK?
It is not sexist to be concerned about my personal safety. How many times do I have to say that? But this argument really isn’t going anywhere so, DavidByron, what do you suggest I do if my car breaks down and a man stops to offer me a ride? How to I determine if he is “dangerous” or not? Do I just blithely assume that no man is ever dangerous (because otherwise I’d be sexist) and get into the car? Every time? Is that what you would suggest your daughter, sister, or mother should do? Or should I use some… Read more »
Well the views you are telling others stops many good men from stopping to help because they don’t want to be assumed to be bad and have the very uncomfortable experience of putting a woman in fear. So we have women afraid of being hurt by men, men afraid to help women for fear of those women being afraid of them and how this will harm them. Internal instinct is helpful but be careful of bias. Are you afraid of your friends, your mother for instance? Being as mothers are most likely to kill a child you should probably teach… Read more »
You are completely avoiding my question.
What would you tell your daughter about whether she should accept a ride from strange man. What criteria should she use. This is a real life situation and thinkimg about abusive mothers and nutrition is not helpful for deciding what to do at 2 am on the side of the road.
P.s. I’ve taken self defense classes, and they always tell you to (a) trust your instincts and (b) never put yourself in a risky situation that you can’t get out of. A car is a classic example of a place where you are trapped if something goes wrong. Self defense advice = don’t get in the car if your instincts tell you it’s dangerous. They also tell you not to rely on weapons. Even if you are carrying a gun (illegal in most states without a concealed weapons permit), it has to be accessible, you have to know how to… Read more »
I’d tell my daughter to be cautious of all people but don’t profile them, if she’s in dire need of help at 2am then ask a man or a woman for help. I can’t tell her to choose only women because women aren’t some bastion of safety, they’re human like men and humans can be both great and also bad. Because naive attempts at safety don’t particularly make her much safer, I’d have to hide her from all people to make her safe. Question is why are your instincts telling you it’s dangerous? Do they tell you it’s dangerous to… Read more »
How would you feel if you told your daughter that if she had a choice between accepting a rider from a man and accepting it from a woman, she should always pick the woman and that choice just happened to be the wrong one the time that she made it? How comforting would it be to know that she was playing the odds? Right or wrong, most men would probably tell their daughters not to be out alone at 2 AM. It’s unfortunate that we’d let our daughters miss out on a lot of life out of fear.
the views you are telling others stops many good men from stopping to help because they don’t want to be assumed to be bad and have the very uncomfortable experience of putting a woman in fear
Yeah, had that happen once. Stopped to help a stranded woman, and terrified her instead. Learned that the hard way.
Now, with universal cell phones, it’s not necessary. But back then (80’s) she could have been stuck on that freeway median for a long time. I’ll never know – I cleared out of there as soon as it was clear that I wasn’t wanted.
Actually, it is extremely uncommon. You see, I do know the stats. Rape, especially from male on female, is the least violent crime perpetrated in our society. It is all but non-existent. In fact, so unlikely is it that someone picking up someone who’s car broke down would turn out to be a rapist, that I don’t believe the story. Coupled with the high number of false rape accusations, she was probably lying.
A little late to the comments here…but has everyone fallen off the turnip truck? Yes, thieves, rapists and murderers are a tiny fraction of the population, but its not like hitchhikers and their drivers are representative of the overall population. Getting into a car with a stranger is super dangerous and most reasonably aware and well-intentioned people self-select out of the activity, ensuring the remaining population of enthusiastic participants are almost surely psycho. And we’re talking a false choice here, this isn’t a gendered division. As a guy, I wouldn’t accept an unsolicited ride from a strange man OR women.… Read more »
That’s a tough one because if nobody took risks for equality, I’m pretty sure equality will never be achieved. Should I point out sexual harassment when I see it, I might lose my job or be retaliated against? Should I object if someone tells a sexist joke, they might get violent? What if someone were being raped in the car? Should I stop to find out? What if they were just having sex? I could have two very angry people on my hands. Should I take down the license plate just in case? If I read about a woman being… Read more »
“Don’t you guys understand, why would I ever take a risk that has even a small chance of getting me raped and killed? (Especially if I have other options , like calling a friend to pick me up.)” Do you bother reading statistics at all? Your friend is more likely to harm you. You have a risk with every single human being pretty much of being raped, killed, tortured. In fact you probably have more of a chance to be badly injured or killed in a vehicle regardless of who drives it, vs being attacked by some stranger in a… Read more »
I think that a very reasonable compromise is that women have a right to turn down assistance from men as men have a right to turn down assistance from women, but they have a right to think, not necessarily say, that you’re a jerk for doing it. I look at the issue of same gender care in healthcare. Men have a right to expect same gender care in hospitals just like women for intimate procedures as outlined in the patient’s bill of rights. Men should be allowed to decline intimate medical procedures and hospitals should be accountable in ensuring that… Read more »
Good point, Archy. I’d offer to help any stranded person, but if they responded out of some rape-suspicion, I’d just laugh in their face and drive off.
Yes, you (random man-hater and man-fearer) may have irrational and prejudicial fears.. but they’re YOUR problem, not mine. I don’t have to show your bigotry any respect or consideration whatsoever.
I understand that frustration. I am a very tall, very large male, I am aware it’s quite intimidating however I’m more likely to belt an abuser up than ever harm an innocent. Where they see potential rapist, they should also see potential savior, potential good samaritan I have no patience with leftist “rape culture” nonsense, but I have to challenge you on this point. I, too, am a very tall guy, and women who don’t know me SHOULD be wary of me. They can’t read my mind, they can’t know that I wouldn’t harm a hair on their head. Once… Read more »
That’s an amazing comment, DavidByron. I’m not sure what purpose it serves to relay a fantasy in which you’d allow anyone to die who held opinions you find abhorrent. By that pattern, perhaps I could say the same thing about seeing you stranded. I wouldn’t leave you to die/stay stranded though, because I’m not nihilistic like that. Perhaps you wouldn’t even accept the ride from me though. In which case I’d call 911 and wait for them to arrive, leave, fully aware of your disdain for me, but safe in the knowledge I didn’t let you come to harm. Peace,… Read more »
Obvious it is rhetorical. I don’t think people deserve to die for having prejudices. I don’t even think George Bush deserves to die, much less Joanna. Still, as I say, following Joanna’s own “logic” nobody would ever stop to help anyone else ever because doing the right thing is never worth it if there’s even an infinitesimal chance it might cost you something. I’m not sure what purpose it serves It serves the clear purpose of communicating to Joanna that her opinion is unacceptable and immoral. If you saw someone expressing a racist opinion would you not do much the… Read more »
To me, “Still, as I say, following Joanna’s own “logic” nobody would ever stop to help anyone else ever because doing the right thing is never worth it if there’s even an infinitesimal chance it might cost you something.” this serves a purpose. What you said, as a rhetorical device, seemed to me (in my opinion at least) to serve the purpose of being inflammatory. A “zinger” of a comment if you will. And so as much as my question could itself seem rhetorical, I didn’t know what purpose you thought it meant. If you felt her work was unacceptable… Read more »
Anyway, your example didn’t seem fantastical enough for satire to make your point. It just seemed nasty. Maybe that was your point though.
Well that’s your fault frankly. You think I LIKE beating up on people? It makes me feel like shit actually. But I know if I don’t do it nobody will. You could have told her all that same stuff and you could have done it much nicer because she’d have taken it from you. Instead it was left to me so I had to be the “asshole” (which is also in part because a man “attacking” a woman always looks like an asshole). You think it’s easy to go around telling people they SUCK all the time? And as for… Read more »
That made me laugh out loud. I see. You beating up on Joanna is my (or someone’s) fault. I (or someone) made you be an asshole. And you’d rather other people be assholes and beat up on people so you don’t have to be an asshole because it makes you feel like shit. Truly one of the most narcissistic things I’ve ever read. You have every control over whether you beat up on people, sir. Nothing was left to you to do. So far as I know there isn’t some organized request for David Byron to beat up on commenters… Read more »
OK you’re not listening now so I will end this. But if you are able to listen at some point in the future I will explain. At any rate I’m glad you’re laughing.
But you don’t find any of my views “abhorrent”, do you? You just think some of my views are incorrect.
There’s no symmetry in this stuff. Only the feminists on this board are advocating sex discrimination. Nobody here is saying treat women worse. The debate is between those of us who want equality and those who want to treat men worse.
First of all. I”m a feminist. Secondly, I’m advocating equality for men, boys, etc. That’s why I’m here. You can disagree all you want, but I’m a feminist and I’m for love peace plenty great sex less war (no war!) wonderful educations for kids, a world where gays and straights and trans can live together and rainbows and unicorns fart fountains of gold chocolate. I don’t know quite enough about you to know if all of your views are abhorrent, but I can’t say I prefer your debating style. I have been listening, and the last thing you said was… Read more »
Well I am English, but the problem may be more that (as is well know) feminists don’t have a sense of humor? It is possible to misread a lot of stuff ; if you don’t ask then you won’t know. I didn’t ask if you thought all my views were abhorrent. I asked if you thought any of my views were abhorrent. I like Joanna too. But she is advocating that men be treated worse than women here. As I said, no person on this board is advocating that women should be treated worse than men, but many people are… Read more »
I answered your question. I also commented further. Surely, you don’t mind additional commentary? I know what you asked. I’m an improvisational comedian, emcee, and I run a comedy festival. You should check it out. It’s filled with women! I can’t always read tone, David. My guess is, as silly as it is to assume, that if I’d heard you say many of your statements I’d have found you humorous or even charming. As it stands, and given the heated nature of the last few days, it was relatively easy for me to see the words without charm. I think… Read more »
I’m a man. If you and I share the same environment YOU are safer than you would have otherwise been. So are the inanimate objects, every element of the flora and fauna and everybody else within that sphere of influence. You, meanwhile, disdain me for the very things that lend me the capacity to provide you this safety and comfort. In essence you are unworthy of my protection. Nonetheless I would give it because the things I have for free oblige their use for others. Unfortunately this was a lesson I learned from the patriarchy so it’s destined to be… Read more »
“I’m for love peace plenty great sex less war (no war!) wonderful educations for kids, a world where gays and straights and trans can live together and rainbows and unicorns fart fountains of gold chocolate.”
I wouldn’t be eating THAT chocolate!
Hey DavidBaron. I think you may have made some great points in some comments, but I think it’s really important that you take a moment and realize that you are talking *to a human being* in these comments. Just because I am a person who has chosen to write for a publication doesn’t make me inhuman. It doesn’t make me your punching bag. You would *leave me to die*? Would you say that to my face if I were to tell you that story about my father, if we were at the home of a mutual friend? Would you say… Read more »
Bravo, Joanna!
He used dramatic language to illustrate his point, and I’ll admit it’s over the top but I am really not surprised by it given how many women and even men have tried to justify misandry. What’s worse is they pick and choose the stats to believe and ignore the others which suggest people are safer with strangers than their friends and family. No one is obligated to help if they feel at risk or threatened, if he views someone as a bigot who is adding to the culture that is harming him and doesn’t wish to help them at all,… Read more »
Legit points, Archy. Even if I disagree with some of them, I respect your presentation and because of that, the thoughts will germinate within me and I may come around, who knows? 😉
I did already concede, like in the third comment up, that I should be using the term, “families with kids” over “moms with kids” in teaching my children about whom to trust were they ever lost. You guys are 100% right on that.
Thank-you Joanna. Hopefully more people can make small adjustments and the fear culture of men will dissipate allowing them more trust in childcare, which in turn should help reduce the gender-role pressure of work and family. 😀
Starting to really like Archy!
DB – No feminist humor huh? What a downer it’ll be when we take over the world!
Mwah huh huh huh huh (that was my Mr. Burns laugh).
Was that sarcasm? I’m bad at detecting it:P I basically roll with the view of seeing the damage of too much emphasis on gender, in my world men, women, children, black, white, green blue red, etc would have adequate coverage and funding towards stopping all forms of abuse regardless of who gets it worse. The cycle of abuse can have a male be abused by a male then later goes on to abuse a female, or female abused by a female and later abuses a male, and bunch of other combinations. This basically means to stop abuse against women, we’d… Read more »
Yes Sarcasm: Feminists taking over the world and Mr. Burns laugh.
No Sarcasm: Starting to really like you!
And for what you say above as far as caring for all victims and preventing all abuse and that being a mutually-beneficial system, I agree wholeheartedly. And though I knew it intrinsically, I hadn’t yet found a way to express it, or fully even understand it before you said it. I said that over in LIsa’s piece where you commented the same ideas.
That’s the problem we’ve got now in we’ve heard violence against women by men sooo long and sooo much it’s given a perception that the opposite direction happens so little that it’s insignificant, and other variables. It’s basically hearing under half of the whole picture if it’s male attacker female victim, we know that beating a dog can increase the risk of it biting back without battign an eyelid but that same principle can be applied to humans. In my family I knew of a lot of violence in my uncles, one in particular would beat his kids, throw them… Read more »
Archy, would you like to write a post about your experience? We’d love to have you contribute if you would be willing. I appreciate your comments quite a bit. Email me lisa at goodmenproject dot com if interested. thanks.
Hey Archy, that good guy I wrote about in the original piece, Jacob, is currently working with a musician who was also bullied as a kid. He is writing an album all about the scars of that abuse and how he overcame it. I think even something small like that – activism through music – can change a kid’s life. To hear what pain you cause someone when you commit violence like that, the harm you cause when you allow it or discount it, and also for the kid (or adult man) to hear a successful, tough guy say “hey,… Read more »
I’ll possibly do it when I can remember more of it to give a better understanding, it amazes me that 10 years later I still remember things that seem new. I guess trauma likes to block itself out. @Joanna, I totally agree. I really hope to see both men and women, victims and abusers to write down their experiences and hopefully lend aid to more study into the field. I still find people who are shocked to learn women can be abusive and men as victims, it’s clearly indicative of how silent some can be. To be honest this is… Read more »
I am right there with you on this Archy. Thank you!
You’re an iFeminist?
I am not the one spewing hate. You are. You simply refuse to accept that fact. Plenty of people have tried to tell you in a more polite way Joanna. You ignored them all. I thought maybe a more emotional approach might reach you. At least you reacted to it. Perhaps that is progress. Maybe you at least having finally figured out that something you are saying is making people angry? But you are still deep in denial. It can’t be me you say to yourself. It must be this other guy. And all the other guys. I would love… Read more »
your daughter should play the numbers and know that if she is going to be raped or murdered, it is most likely going to be by a man and make a choice based upon that Again this is sexist. It is discriminatory, pejorative and irrational. You know its rubbish from what you said in your example. If your dad had not had a kid with him would he have left the woman to die in the snow? And would he really want his daughter to die in the snow rather than get a lift from a man? All you are… Read more »
The Diamond Dazzle Stick ad on the right is hilaroous….
Yes, folks, we men can be friendly and sociable with no ulterior motives.
“with no ulterior motives.”
Do you define ulterior motive as wanting sex. Because I don’t define that as an ulterior motive…I define it as a fantastic motive.
How foolish are some of you to believe that simply calling somoene out on their behavior is gonna do anything ?
You disapprove of their behavior ? so what, you’re not the first and won’t be the last person to tell them that.
“. There is a difference between Feminists trying to make you feel bad about being a man (which is dead wrong)”
There is a difference between some women trying to make you feel bad about being a man….
Suggested edit for accuracy and de-escalation….
Male feminists do it too, it is a bit of a running theme in feminism, if not a defining characteristic. I suspect that will change as male perspectives enter the gender debate more.
Male voices will not be allowed in.
Seriously: giving men a voice is entirely different from giving women a voice. Giving men a voice would be a radical action that would be of concern to the ruling class. Feminism never did anything that bothered the ruling class. Women are not prisoners. Women are not the homeless. Women are not veterans. Feminism was always a whiney wealthy white women’s movement. No threat whatsoever to the elites. They looked like a threat for a few years because feminists (gender essentialists that they all are) claimed women were more moral than men and when they got the vote all sorts… Read more »
Hey Liz, I totally get what you’re saying here, and it would seem more accurate, but in fact I’m speaking of both male and female Feminists (specifically as this article references Hugo Schwyzer). What I probably should have said, if I was being ultra-careful was “some Feminists”… However, what I am answering is the claim that “Feminism” and “Feminists” are trying to make men feel guilty. I am speaking for Feminism, but as it is such a broad umbrella, I hope that people are able to know that of course I do not speak for *all* Feminists in that. (of… Read more »
Feminism is not at all serious about ending violent and abusive behavior in adults.
If it was it would be drawing our attention to the fact that women commit most child abuse, and female perpetrated violence instead of always glossing over it.
The fun feminists are being used by the radical feminists, to spread their men are the only problem and rape culture hate propaganda.
There is a difference between Feminists trying to make you feel bad about being a man (which is dead wrong) and us asking you to recognize the way most women feel, and asking you to respect that. Speaking from experience, there really is not a difference. Anytime you hold individual men responsible for other men’s actions just because they are men, you are going to make men feel bad for being men. It does not matter how you try to soften the blow, feminists still blame all men for the actions of a few, and expect men to take responsibility… Read more »
If your friend were making lewd jokes about a woman, giving commentary excusing rape, getting into the personal space of a female or making a female uncomfortable, would you say something to him? Would you say “this isn’t right”? Would you ask the woman who is made uncomfortable by a man if she needed any assistance? Would you report a crime against a woman, even if it were your friend or colleague or boss who committed it? Would you call for the removal of judges, police or other authorities who do not follow proper procedures in the cases of women?… Read more »
Joanne I keep reading and finding these Polarities of men have to hold men accountable and women hold woman accountable. I don’t think it’s your intent to create a divide, far from it, but the same thing keeps on happening and frankly is getting in the way. I’m human first and male second. If I see action which needs to be taken for the welfare of another human I act. The gender focus seems to get in the way. It even alienates groups who fit into the list of questions you have asked. Disabled, Elderly, Children, Race …. the list… Read more »
Allow me to answer your questions with a question: why you assume that I and other men do not already do these things for everyone?
To ask me those questions implies that you are judging me not by my own actions, but by the what you assume all or most men do.
As for you not feeling guilty for other women’s actions, I suspect that is because no one blames women for other women’s behavior (or for their own behavior), particularly not feminists.