Vicki Larson wants to know why there is still surprise when divorced dads are actively co-parenting, have full custody, or are simply there to show up in their children’s lives.
The moms had seen him at the ballet school every Thursday — an attractive 30-something guy with earrings and cropped blond hair. They gossiped about him — Who is he? Is he unemployed? Is he a trust-fund baby? What is he doing with that cute little girl? Where’s her mother? What is he doing here? He just doesn’t fit in.
Finally, a mother got her nerve to walk up to him. “I see you here every week. What are you doing here?”
He was taken aback. What did this mother think he was doing at 3:30 p.m. on a Thursday, the exact time of the beginners’ ballet class?
The answer was embarrassingly obvious: “Taking my daughter to ballet class.”
♦◊♦
It’s a scenario that seems to be plucked off of the pages of Tom Perrotta’s brilliant novel “Little Children,” or the movie starring Kate Winslet and Patrick Wilson based on it. But this isn’t a scene from a novel or a movie — it’s real life if you are a stay-at-home-dad or a single or divorced father.
As much as we love the idea of men being an equal partner in a marriage, we don’t necessarily embrace the idea of men being an equal partner in a divorce. The divorced father who shows up for his kids in meaningful and obvious ways, such as taking a daughter to a midday, midweek ballet class, is still considered odd.
It’s a similar but slightly different reality than that of stay-at-home dads — the trail-blazing “feminist, father, and husband who doesn’t care what the gender roles are,” is how Diane Sollee, director of the Coalition for Marriage, Family and Couples Education, sees them. There were about 154,000 men in 2010 who stayed at home to care for their kids while their wife worked. But the recession, which hit men hard, has kept many more men at home, willingly or not. Given the many dads who work part time or consider themselves consultants but who are still primarily the caregivers to their children, that number is probably closer to 2 million at-home dads, according to Aaron Rochlen, an associate professor at the University of Texas at Austin.
That number is sure to grow; some 45 percent of men said they’d stay at home if their wife made more money than they do, according to a recent survey by Men’s Health and Spike TV.
♦◊♦
And then there are single fathers, about 1.8 million in the United States — a 27 percent jump in the past decade, according to the latest Census. Of those single-father families, 46 percent are divorced, and another 19 percent are separated. That’s about two-thirds of all single-father families — a pretty substantial portion of men taking their children to ballet classes or Little League practice.
So why are we surprised that many of them are either co-parenting or have full custody? As Sally Abrahms writes in Working Mother magazine:
“Today, it’s not uncommon for fathers seeking sole custody in a contested case to prevail at least 50 percent of the time. And Dad is asking for joint or primary custody more and more: Over the past decade, the number of fathers awarded custody of their children has doubled, according to the latest data. In the current generation of dads, gender doesn’t dictate who changes a diaper or consoles an infant. And as fathers become more entrenched in their roles as co-caregiver, they’re less willing to hand off that role when a marriage breaks down.”
We should applaud that — dad’s an equal partner, exactly what women want! Yet as a society, we still aren’t used to seeing dads being so hands-on with their kids in public. The stereotypes are challenging. All dads — whether stay-at-home, single, co-parenting or full-custody divorced dads — are likely to hear comments rife with judgment, such as, “Are you babysitting today?” or “Giving Mom a break?” if they’re out with their kids. And they are suspect if they volunteer in classrooms, hang around parks while their kids play, or try to join in a playgroup, typically made up of moms. As one stay-at-home dad tells Andrea Doucet, a Brock University sociology professor and author of Do Men Mother, “It’s kind of bad for men to be interested in other children.”
But divorced dads often experience another layer of judgment and gender-based expectations. “When men parent as single parents, they’re expected not to be as good at it,” says Dr. Wendy A. Paterson, dean of the Ralph C. Wilson Jr. School of Education at St. John Fisher College in New York and author of Diaries of a Forgotten Parent: Divorced Dads on Fathering Through and Beyond Divorce. “We don’t trust men. A lot of women, and they don’t even understand they’re doing this, take on all the mothering and they ‘allow’ the father a peripheral role or an ‘invited in’ role, and then when the father isn’t as big a part of the lives of his children, they get blamed for not participating.”
♦◊♦
It isn’t unusual for divorced fathers to hear comments like, “How often are you allowed to see your daughter?” As Sam Magee, a divorced co-parenting dad, writes, “despite having a solid full time job, a regular salary, and no concerning habits of any kind, people were stunned that I got 50% custody. ‘Wow, that’s a lot,’ people would remark. ‘Every weekend?’ They were shocked that I was actually going to be a consistent and active part of my son’s life post-divorce.”
When people react that way with words, they react that way with behaviors, too. While they may have been fine letting their young daughter have a sleepover when a guy has a wife, not many feel the same when he gets divorced. Now it seems creepy.
That’s on top of the general stereotypes that all divorced men are womanizers, cheaters and dead-beat dads; after all he must have done something wrong for her to dump his sorry butt.
“There’s a huge need for people who can mediate the separation of a family into two families, and not one family with a visiting dad. Calling someone a visitor; the language of that has to change,” says Paterson, a single mom. “Women will never be liberated until men are.”
—
Originally published on Huffington Post. Vicki Larson also blogs at OMGChronicles.
I am a single dad 2 girls 5 and 6 doing well me at home for them and in the courts for a lot of that time , the relative authorities failed to protect the children closed the file mother turned on that expert opinion to remove them from me forever meanwhile the abuse continued step brother .. Against all odds I won the children after sacking the lawyer- we relocated , after three years of ballet make up dressing and joy we started out again in a country town only to be told I was excluded backstage from the… Read more »
I think one of the problems when it comes to fathers and parenting is that even among people that say they want equal parenting the definition of equal parenting ends up becoming “as long the mom is not getting the short end of the stick” rather than making sure both parents get a fair shake.
I wonder how class enters into this. I see a lot of men on the playground during the week in my mostly working class neighborhood, and I’ve never noticed mothers looking at them oddly. Some of them are divorced, some never married and some are with the kids’ mothers, perhaps working second shift so they can share child care. I’ve talked to some of these guys from my blog, and they never say they feel strange about watching the kids–I actually asked one of them about this and he didn’t seem to have ever thought that people might see his… Read more »
Dancer says:
December 21, 2011 at 1:16 pm
Quit whining. Men literally get away with murdering women and children, and you want the murderer to get sole custody? Whatever.
—————————————
Women are as violent as men.
What a ridiculous comment ignoring the fact, that children are more frequently mistreated by women than by men. – Boys are more frequently mistreated than girls.
Women are getting away with murdering their husband and children.
Men are usually sentenced to much much longer jail terms than women for identical crimes.
I have been separated for a little over a year. I was a stay-at-home mom, and he was a non-present husband/father/human being except when he wanted to be around to criticize, and control, or wanted sex. When I moved out I figured he wouldn’t know the first thing about being a primary care-giver to the children, and that I would take them with me, and he would see them two nights a week and every other weekend; more effort than he’d put into them in their lives to this point. He insisted, no, how could I think this, he absolutely… Read more »
I hate to step in like this, but as someone who has a step-child I resent the implication above that if a man re-partners, and his new partner helps out with some of the domestic and familial responsibilities that somehow he is no longer deserving of custody of his children. In our house we have 50-50, plus we pay child support (because there are differential incomes between the two households), and my partner is as active a dad as they come (both before and after divorce)….. and yet you know, sometimes it just works better for me to take care… Read more »
Well put. That new woman (or man) in your ex’s life is just a fact of life. He or she will be family to your children. You want it to work, if nothing else that for their sake.
My objection is not to him having a new partner, nor to a new partner wanting to be involved in their lives. My objection/concern is that he is setting her up to do ALL of the parenting while he makes another exit from their lives. That he will be not present yet again. When the new partner figures this out she will resent my kids. I have a stepmother who ended up being the primary care giver when my dad fought for custody from my mom, I lived it. It does a number to a kid’s self-esteem to feel like… Read more »
I mean a 50% parent, 100% father.
I can’t speak about the specifics of your situation – it sounds like your ex is of the there-but-absent kind. However, I will say that parenting is to me by it’s nature something you share. If I was to divorce and then find another partner, I would be sharing parenting with that new partner. The new partner would be fully part of the family, so any notion that “these are my children, I have to do all of the parenting” wouldn’t wok. But then, I can’t imagine finding another partner *and* get to the stage where that partner is considered… Read more »
Bingo Lars! The notion of micro-management of the other’s parenting is of BIG concern and was one of the catalysts separating our relationship. It didn’t work IN marriage and it certainly will not work after separation and divorce. However, with the conditions encountered with the staid, “every other weekend” father schedule, despite my wish for 50-50 parenting compounds the issues. It is worth mentioning that I too was considered an “absentee father” by my ex-wife. This was mostly due to my responsibility to provide for our six children and her full-time mothering, (which is an AWESOME opportunity if a family… Read more »
I hate to say this – but stay at home mom with six kids doesn’t sound like it’s turned out to be an awesome opportunity for your or your family. It has distanced you from your kids (because you spent a lot of time out of the home providing for them financially), it has certainly stalled your ex-wife’s earning potential (I don’t know what kindof a career she had before marriage/kids – but if she had one it’s over now), and in the end your children have been subjected to bitterness on both sides (no matter how you try to… Read more »
(pls. ignore the grammar and spelling errors above, my brain is stuck in early morning still!)
I consider him to be an absentee father, not because he was working, but because when he was home, he wasn’t home, not involved, did nothing but watch me take care of the kids, or disappear into the tv, computer, and leave me alone with them. Sometimes he took himself out to a movie on the way home from work instead of coming home. If I wanted to go out to have some time to myself (as my job was/is a 24-7 job, with little to no help from him) he’d make me feel guilty about not spending “family” time… Read more »
One of the biggest issues for me, as a single father (since 2004) has been the complete lack of empathy at work when it comes to my responsibilities to my kids. I get A LOT of pushback from my bosses whenever family obligations come up–things like doctors appointments, extracurriculars, sick days, etc. And yet, at the same time, when female coworkers need to take time off for such things, these same managers are extremely accomodating and understanding. I’ve made it work over the years, because I really have no choice, but I’m always amazed at the complete lack of understanding… Read more »
This isn’t the case with my current employer, they are very understanding, but at my previous job, a school of all places, my need to take personal time to take my son to the doctors, go to soccer games, and so on, was greeted with rolled eyes and skepticism by some, largely, by the male administration. The dissection of the psychology behind this reaction would be interesting and probably complicated, but worth trying. Thank you all for this conversation.
This is a subject near and dear to my heart; when I was 2-1/2, my mother left my father (at that time, my younger sister was a year old, and my youngest sis was in-utero). My father would have cut off his right arm to have been able to have ANY part of custody of his kids, but he was stationed in Turkey at the time…not an option. My mother didn’t want to stay married, and moved back to the U.S. He had no say in the matter. I am now married to the love of my life, who lost… Read more »
Ah, yes, the MRA brigade has arrived, who would like all that silly fuss about abused spouses and children to go away so that men can assert their rights to keep their women and children under control. And if it takes a punch, a slap, or a strangling to maintain those “rights”, well, it’s just what a man’s got to do, I suppose. Please.
Don’t tell me… you’re a “victim,” right? Empower and educate people instead of distracting from the real issues. It seems all too easy to use an already overloaded system to broker vengeance and retaliation based on some dysfunctional “woman’s playbook to revenge.” Accuse him of spousal abuse… CHECK! Accuse him of child abuse… CHECK! Accuse him of sexual abuse of a child… CHECK! When does it end? At what point does the judge or court official look back at the track record of lies and decide enough? If I cried, “FIRE!” in a crowded theater, I would go to jail… Read more »
Thank you for proving my point.
Proving the point of necessary and healthy discourse to bring awareness and positive change to inadequate laws,egal system abuses andl biases? Proving that helping others to help themselves is paramount to a healthy and thriving society for our children? Then yes, you’re welcome.
You’re making horrible generalisations there. Many MRAs, myself included, absolutely recognise issues of DV (for both genders), child abuse (of and by both genders) and other “women’s” issues. The fact that those issues exist does not negate the fact that men are treated unfairly before the courts in general, and the family courts in particular.
But the fact that men get a raw deal doesn’t negate the fact that women, too, get a raw deal in family courts. Only those with a particular agenda try to spin it like family court is some sort of paradise for women. And I’m sorry, but this anti-DV MRA crowd is a new one. The ones I’ve encountered only trot out DV when they want to prove that women are horrible parents. I think that sort should probably hold out until artificial wombs become available, so they can breed without having to deal with the horror of a mother.
The divorce process stinks. The marriage is over, that’s usually a sad realization. Lawyers get involved and advocate for their clients. Too often the conflicts between the spouses escalate because of the attorneys’ ideas on who deserves what. A bad judge makes things worse. Divorce frequently brings out the worst in both parties. My ex got on a plane for Europe where she was going to “study” for a month. A week later she called and said she wasn’t coming back. Soon after that her lawyer contacted me and the madness began. When all was said and done she got… Read more »
“But the fact that men get a raw deal doesn’t negate the fact that women, too, get a raw deal in family courts”
– HAHA! But you have no stats to support this claim? Didn’t think so.
Hey, nothing like a little invective to lift the caliber of the discussion. The old “artificial womb” brigade has arrived, right? We could work to keep this on the level of people who want to resolve something instead of scooping up the spitballs.
Dancer says: “Ah, yes, the MRA brigade has arrived, who would like all that silly fuss about abused spouses and children to go away” According to the 2006 Child Maltreatment study mothers commit 70% of parental child abuse (even when you roll in sex abuse). And yet mothers win sole physical custody 80% to fathers 6%. You can sling slurs all day long, but the facts do not lie. “The best interests of the child” is code for “what momma wants momma gets”. There are dozens of studies which show children fare best with constant involvement from loving fit fathers.… Read more »
Quit whining. Men literally get away with murdering women and children, and you want the murderer to get sole custody? Whatever.
“Men literally get away with murdering women and children, and you want the murderer to get sole custody?”
Sole custody of whom? The dead children? Who would he have joint custody with? The dead mother?
As for “literally” getting away with murder, I have four words for you: Susan Smith, Andrea Yates.
As for getting custody, two words: Mary Winkler.
-Jut
Dancer says:
“Quit whining”
Are you scared Dancer? Are you scared of fathers having parental rights?
Wow! The murder wants custody of the just murdered children? Nice logic, idiot.
Please don’t call people idiots. Call out the funky logic, call out the grammar, but leave the person out of it?
And so now we’re down to “whatever.” Not the most compassionate of ideas. I think the subject of parenting deserves a higher level of respect than Valley-speak.
You’re in the wrong line of work, Dancer. surely some caricaturist at Fisherman’s Wharf needs help.
You’re opening is cute and illustrative, but what really struck me was your follow-up – that men who take their daughters to ballet class are either stay-at-home-dads or single parents. How about regular married fathers with a regular job, taking their kids to dance classes, music classes, football, or whatever? Isn’t that done in the US – or is that the domain of mothers? Because, if it is, I fully understand why mothers would be surprised when a divorced father show up. Children need their fathers to be involved; not just SAHD’s and single father – all fathers. And fathers… Read more »
It’s very unusual in the US to have dads taking their kids around to classes and sports and games on a regular basis.
I did it regularly after my divorce, and started a play group at my eldest daughter’s elementary school. It was an awesome time in my life – the kids were fantastic and they’re doing great now, in large part because they have an active, involved Dad in their lives.
Question – why only after the divorce? I absolutely agree the children benefit fro having an active, involved father – and not just children with divorced parents. Why not take your children to dance lessons, sports, etc., while married? I do it all the time; it’s great fun, and it gives you so many opportunities for being intimate and having quality conversations with your kids, plus you meet other parents and get a chance to bounce ideas and problems with them. I have a managerial position that gives me a good deal of flexibility in work hours, so for us… Read more »
Lars: “Question – why only after the divorce? I absolutely agree the children benefit fro having an active, involved father – and not just children with divorced parents. Why not take your children to dance lessons, sports, etc., while married?” “I have a managerial position that gives me a good deal of flexibility in work hours” Guess you just answered you own question. Flex time simply isn’t a reality for many fathers who work jobs with no flextime and mandatory overtime. I would turn this around. If the father (most likely with the mother’s blessings) decided his time was best… Read more »
No, I don’t think I’ve answered my own question. I understand that many families arrange themselves such that the man work long hours, leaving little time to spend with the kids. But if we truly believe that having engaged fathers is good (and it sounds like we do), why are we doing things this way? If fathers truly want more time with their children, like the opportunity to take them to dance lessons, why do fathers accept an arrangement where they can’t do that. If you can’t get what you want, you must change things – and no-one but yourself… Read more »
Lars, In the US, fathers who are married have some parental rights.
Of course, those rights frequently include the right to pay child support to their spouse upon divorce if she bears a child during the marriage, regardless of the biological father.
Single and divorced fathers de facto and de jure have very few rights. A typical example of issues deployed fathers face is here:
A veteran of the Iraq war has had his parental rights terminated despite having in no way wronged his child or the mother. Read about it here: (http://www.boonevilledemocrat.com/articles/2011/12/09/news/news10.txt).
Lars, good point. While I’ve known several fathers who are involved in their kids’ lives without a court order regulating such involvement, I know too many who are out of touch with the people who share a roof with them. It just plain doesn’t make sense to me for it to require a divorce for parent to suddenly acquire a desire to find out whether their daughter has Bieber fever, or how long she’s been playing soccer. And when I say “parent” I mean both mothers and fathers, as I’ve known a couple mothers who couldn’t be bothered to tear… Read more »
Look up the term “maternal gatekeeping” and you’ll understand.
Well, yes – that can be a challenge in a relationship. But fathers should not accept this type of behaviour. As father, you owe it to your children to be there in their lives – even if that means putting your foot down and taking a conflict with their mother. If fathers do not, they’re as much to blame for the outcome as the mother.
Lars, The problem (in divorce) is that the family courts routinely side with mothers in divorces for no greater reason than she is female. It is hard to enforce your visitation when cops and courts won’t and the mother can have you jailed for the tiniest slight. The way our society treats fathers today is one of the largest systemic civil rights abuses I have ever seen by government since jim crow laws. If a family court judge were to systematically exercise bias against blacks (like most do against fathers) in every inter-racial relationship that crossed her/his desk she/he would… Read more »
Wow, that’s funny. I’m currently dealing with cases where the fathers have been charged with sexual abuse of their own children, and they are getting sole custody. I’ve got a case where the father beat the mother, dragged her out of the house while she was unconscious, then claimed that he should get sole custody because she “abandoned” the children while out cold. And he got it. I wonder what world you live in, and how I can visit.
Dancer says: “Wow, that’s funny. I’m currently dealing with cases where the fathers have been charged with sexual abuse of their own children, and they are getting sole custody.” Of course you are dear. Strange, radfems keep trying to release “specials” and books about how abusive father are winning custody, yet every time they do Glenn Sacks debunks them and shows that in EVERY SINGLE CASE POPULARIZED by feminists the mother lost custody for various reasons all of which were reviewed by custody evaluators (many of them feminist), guardian ad litums, therapists and saw the mothers were harming the kids.… Read more »
ooops well-being of children, not child care.
Dancer,
I love that story! Any more fiction for us?
So Dancer, it sounds like you’re in Family Law. Well, I have a few things I’d like to discuss in person with you, so you can get some emotional insight on how broken your brand of law can leave a loving father. If Family Law is established to support the health of the child, then it should be ready to make judgements based on typical instances, not this outland story you’re sharing here. This kind of grandstanding works okay in litigation. This audience isn’t sitting on the bench in judgement, however. I can find people who can swallow swords, too,… Read more »
Well, someone’s got to look out for a child. A parent can’t just hand off their kid to anyone who thinks the kid is cute. If a father can’t, won’t, or is hurting the kid, a mother can’t just throw up her hands and hope that the kid(s) learn self-defense.
That’s an interesting and illustrative reaction. You’re making the assumption that the mother is protecting the child from a father who is incompetent, unable to look our for his children, or even abusive. That’s a destructive point of view. If in a relationship the mother is (maybe unconsciously) thinking of her partner – the father of her children – as a threat to the kids, as someone she need to protect the children from, then it’s going to be extremely hard to make parenting work. In parenting, there’s more than one way to do things. All parents are different. Parents… Read more »
You’re correct. That, in part, is why parents have rights, instead of simply letting the state figure out whom among all and sundry would do the best job for a particular kid. Nice to see that when you write, “[a] parent can’t just hand off their kid to anyone who thinks they’re cute,” what you mean by ‘parent’ is ‘mother.’ I knew that set of fangs would be bared.
Not sure where you’re from Lars, but assuming scandinavia, I gather work weeks in the US are longer and wages are lower. People also get less holidays than those of us in western europe. Given this background its hardly surprising that fathers often don’t take their kids to dance classes: if they’re the sole earner they probably don’t have time.
Yes, I’m living in Scandinavia. No, it’s not surprising that fathers who are the sole earners can’t take their children to dance classes. But it is (to me) surprising that fathers accept to be the sole earners, thereby robbing themselves of the chance of time with their kids. If we want to play an active role as fathers, structural changes must happen to allow us the opportunities. Those changes start with making personal choices that make us able to do what we really want. Anyway – that’s what struck me reading the original post, that if few fathers are part… Read more »
In America, those of us who do get jobs are often overworked and poorly paid. Family supports of the sort Scandivians have (and grumble about from time to time) are more or less unheard of.
I think the problem is that we are thinking of custody of children as a right and not as a tool that’s needed to keep things stable for the kids. If custody is granted to a parent who’s never changed their diapers, doesn’t know what school they go to and who their friends are, that’s going to be a significant disruption for the child(ren), who didn’t get a choice in this. If a parent wants 50-50 “rights” to custody and financial responsibility they need to claim their 50-50 “rights” to sitting up all night with a kid with a fever,… Read more »
Fathers who wish to be involved in their children’s lives, (post separation or divorce) SHOULD be… period!
If you’re a dad, sometimes even that is not enough: http://www.fathersandfamilies.org/?p=21672
If you’re a mom, sometimes that and more is not enough to make the case for custody:
http://msmagazine.com/blog/blog/2010/05/17/how-family-courts-punish-abused-women/
Seems common sense lacks in a court’s decision to invoke justice. A quick “coming to the table” with all parties involved would make for a rational judgment as to WHO to enforce a restraining order against. In my experience, because of the court’s fear for such events cited in Ms. Magainzine’s article, the court’s impose restraining orders “with an abundance of caution” which disrupts a parent’s involvement in their children’s lives unnecessarily; further exacerbating an already fragile situation. What is so wrong with simply coming together to discuss the best interest of the children like mature adults? Our court system… Read more »
The article you linked to is so full of inaccurate information, I’m not clear what you’re trying to say.
It must be based on the same information that “Breaking the Silence” was based on. This “expose” was supposed to be an objective documentary exposing how abusive fathers were winning custody by laying false claims of parental alienation against mothers. It was made to be aired on PBS. However, the PBS ombudsman stated this documentary did not adhere to journalistic ethics and standards. It also turns out the mother who lost custody did so because she initiated a blatant campaign of instructing the kids to make false statements. She was even recorded at a visitation center instructing her kids to… Read more »
Dancer says:
“If you’re a mom, sometimes that and more is not enough to make the case for custody:
ht tp://msmagazine.com/blog/blog/2010/05/17/how-family-courts-punish-abused-women/”
Dancer, you’re example doesn’t even apply. Firstly, a single incidence of a father killing his child does not a study make. The 2006 child maltreatment study shows that mothers commit 70% of parental child abuse. Mothers also commit 70% of parental child murders.
Secondly, the father DIDN’T HAVE CUSTODY. So this article tries to state the family courts are en masse giving custody to abusing dads the one example was fraudulent.
Better evidence please.
The article is about a book. A book that assesses many cases. Do try to keep up.
If it’s made by the same radfems that produced the debunked “breaking the silence” then it is most likely advocacy research that reaches a conclusion and backs the data into it. “Breaking the silence” which was to air on PBS and show abusive dads were using claims of Paretal Alienation to secure custody was a farce. The poster-mother shown in this “special” was filmed at a dv center coaching her kids into falsely claiming dad inappropriately touched them. Are you seriously putting forth a claim that mothers are unfairly losing custody en masse when fathers get 6% sole physical custody… Read more »
Oh, boy, direct from the magazine that believed wholeheartedly in satanic ritual abuse at daycare centers.
Yes, exactly.
I really don’t think any of that custody stuff does anything for kids whatsoever. It’s the PARENTS who ultimately raise their kids right, divorced or not, and not court orders.
Frankly, we have a bunch of piss-poor parents these days, of both sexes.
Dancer says: “I think the problem is that we are thinking of custody of children as a right and not as a tool that’s needed to keep things stable for the kids. If custody is granted to a parent who’s never changed their diapers, doesn’t know what school they go to and who their friends are, that’s going to be a significant disruption for the child(ren)” This is not necessarily (or even in the majority) true. The few studies I have seen on divorce outcomes show that shared custody is the best outcome for children. For one thing, the sole… Read more »
Well, I guess it doesn’t matter if the kids are actually taken care of, as long as that piece of paper says that the “split” was even.
I think too many fathers defer to what the mother wants instead of enforcing their 50-50 rights and looking out for the well being of the children. If both parents are wanting it 50-50 should be the norm not the exception.
Exactly. I wonder what motivates them to “defer” as you put it. Surely any dad who really cared about being an equal parent would insist on the 50-50? Why don’t they – because it’s too hard to work and watch the kids, it’s not as easy as just having them every other weekend, they don’t know how to watch the kids – what is it?
No. In many states, the higher earning spouse must pay the legal bills of the other spouse, so mothers can drag out conflict as long as they can without too much expense. Also, many attorneys advise their male clients to settle before costs balloon out of control. Also, judges are trained and are from a generation that often has biases about custody and child care. I’ve heard judges say a “man should work”, and deny a father custody. Overall, women default on child support at greater rates than men, and they abuse children at higher rates than men, but they… Read more »
mjay, to your point, I experienced this exact outcome where my ex-wife’s attorney, (a new attorney taking on her first few cases with her same sex partner and known as one of Colorado’s most active Lesbian & Gay Rights firms) dragged on our case with discovery questions, demands limiting parenting time for me based on false accusations, (such as supervised and/or very limited parenting time and access to our children, etc.) which brought our legal costs to well over $40,000. I remember one convo with my ex-wife staring that she isn’t even being billed for her lawyers time! I was… Read more »
Maybe they don’t want to fight in front of the kids.
They knows that it is hard enough for the kids to go through the divorce. they don’t want to expose the children to the custody battle, as well.
In this case, “deferring” is agreeing with the mother, who, apparently, does not want to let the kids spend 50% of the time with their father.
Why would she do that? To be vindictive? Because he is a worse parent? To get child support? Because, she thinks that the kids are HER kids?
-Jut
That’s part of why I’m not pursuing a child support claim- because I didn’t want my kid’s first memories of the interaction between Mom and Dad to be the battle over child support or me begging his dad to visit without having to pay, ahem, “in kind”. Divorced parents have it rough, and everyone gives up something they’d like for the sake of the child. Some mothers want sole custody for a negotiating point- something that can be compromised on, as much of this is about bargaining. Some want sole custody because they are the only ones providing care, and… Read more »
Yes, there can be all kinds of motivating factors. My favorite is a friend of mine who has full custody of his son and who STILL pays child support to the mother, who never sees her child.
Why does he pay her? Essentially, it is hush money. If he tries to reduce his support (not even considering getting HER pay support), he expects a fight for custody.
So, he pays her so he can continue to live with his kid.
-Jut
The rate of paying among non-custodial single mothers is much worse than for NC dads. As you mentioned most dads won’t push for child support, because he knows (thanks to misandrist family courts) the mother can yank custody anytime she wants.
Dancer says:
“And I nearly weep every time I hear fathers act like that and then demand sole custody and no visitation. It’s nothing but another way to abuse a spouse.”
Yet another reason why the sole custody model is outdated.
It’s time to bring family court into the new millennium and break down some gender stereotypes.
“Exactly. I wonder what motivates them to “defer” as you put it.”
Cultural tradition and the legal regime. Fathers know sooner or later in a marriage that their wifves hold thier kids as hostages, so they had better make nice. That includes deerring to her and tolerating her mommy-blocking. And even if they don’t, the family courts will enforce it on them and their children.
Parents are treated quite badly by family courts, period. Mothers have it bad, too, which is why I think the problem is greater than the gender of the parent and needs to remain on the kids. If Mom was barely home but wants full custody, she’d better be ready to explain why the kids’ lives should go through such a drastic change. If Dad is buying a new Ferrari each year and Mom is trying to get by with a 20 year old Honda, demanding that financial responsibility be split down the middle is rather harsh and doesn’t benefit the… Read more »
I don’t think stay at home moms usually encounter the bias seen in this case:
http://www.fathersandfamilies.org/?p=21672
I have a friend in that situation. Her husband left her with 4 children AND all their credit card debt. My friend had to argue with him every single month to get child support. He wouldn’t always pick up his kids on his weekends. When he did, he’d take them straight to his mother’s house. In the meantime, he immediately re-married a professional woman and proceeded to live in great comfort on dual incomes.
Family court t ultimately benefits only government bureaucrats and attorneys.
Your anecdote is all too common, as is the less widely acknowledged bias and active interference with a fathers’ relationship with his children.
Ah, I did the child support dance too, until I realized my ex was just itching to have absolutely no responsibility, and was willing to hurt our kid to be free of it. So I gave him almost everything he wanted- no pestering him to visit, no calls when the child support was a week late and short by half, and he gets to go do what he does. The only thing I didn’t give him was the nookie he kept trying to get while he was between girlfriends. Oddly enough, the folk who always bug me to “go after… Read more »
Dancer, “Ah, I did the child support dance too, until I realized my ex was just itching to have absolutely no responsibility, and was willing to hurt our kid to be free of it.” Dancer, it’s terrible that your ex didn’t want to be a part of your children’s lives. However, the flipside is that many good fathers are legally forced out of their children’s lives by equally bad mothers. The difference is that mothers have cops and courts on their side when they decide to keep loving fit fathers from the children’s lives. This is a huge travesty and… Read more »
Dancer:
I am sure you would have given anything for the father of your children to been a good dad and involved.
So then, why would you support the sole custody system which enables mothers to force loving fit fathers from children’s lives?
That doesn’t make sense. Why would you say that a father’s parenting time has to be minimized after a divorce?
If you would have given anything for your kids to have a loving fit dad, why do you support taking this away from other kids?
At least the courts recognise her right to child support. In that case the problem seems to be less with the courts and more with the asshole who skipped out on his kids.
Courts treat family law far too much like property law, and much less like helping arrange the best possible situation for children during a difficult time. They “split” children 50-50 like yet another asset, often disregarding the facts of the children’s lives prior to the divorce, and seem to reward the parent with the best manipulation tactics or the most money. If it were more in the interests of children, both parents would be required to go through assessments of how much care they provided before the divorce, the situation that the divorced parents are transitioning into and how much… Read more »
Dancer says: “Courts treat family law far too much like property law, and much less like helping arrange the best possible situation for children during a difficult time. They “split” children 50-50 like yet another asset, often disregarding the facts of the children’s lives prior to the divorce” Dancer, once again you have it wrong. The sole custody model rules the land. There are only 8 shared custody states. All the data points to shared custody being lower conflict, and creating children with higher happiness and well-adjusted. The situation before the divorce is irrelevant. The reason being this: If a… Read more »
Hopefully, Dancer, these assessments of pre-and-post facto situations will result in Mom being told to get a job if Dad agrees to quit his second job.
Divorced men are too often treated abysmally in family courts . I support the notion that everything in divorce proceedings be shared equally. That means equal (50%) physical custody and equal financial responsibility. The notion that a child has a real home, and dad’s place demeans fathers. When children are shared equally, they have two homes, and fathers can take pride in how they create warm and welcome homes for their kids. I was a single dad, and I suffered through family court. There wasn’t any dignity in the struggle, and although I won custody of my boys, I was… Read more »
Stop whining
hahahaha! Classic
Well said 🙂
He was being ironic. You didn’t catch that, did you? It’s the standard response men get for bringing anyhthing like this up, and there is always some asshole white knight to swoop in a defend the ladies’ honor. Now thank leta for schooling you.
You could be right, but shouldn’t it start with men being more active and involved parents BEFORE divorce comes into play?
Whether they are or not has no bearing on the outcomes in family court.
Tyler says: “You could be right, but shouldn’t it start with men being more active and involved parents BEFORE divorce comes into play?” Here is a supposition Tyler. Let’s say you have two great parents who both have a degree in child development. They BOTH spend lots of child-minding time, engaging with their two children, engaging their imaginations or creativity, etc… Now let’s suppose they are both unemployed. What do you think their chances of adopting a third child. Even examplary parents will get turned down if they cannot show proof of being able to support a child’s MATERIAL needs.… Read more »
Well spoken, John D. My seperation and divorce experience afforded the hindsight that working two jobs to support a large, growing family which enabled our children’s mother the ability to be a full-time mother was a detriment to my parenting wishes and involvement post-divorce. A decision and agreement which I thought was honorable and a worthy sacrifice for our family was used against me as I was penalized and relegated to the standard ever-other-weekend father parenting schedule, (Worksheet B) yet still provide now for expenses now for two completely seperate households. Everyone in the family is set up for failure… Read more »
Thanks MM, It’s interesting how chivalrists and feminists think in lockstep about male responsibility, but I rarely see things going the other way (female responsibility). Shared parenting is absolutely the best model for both parents and for child happiness and well-being. The simple fact is, some mothers might lose a little privilege and some income from child support. But, on the flipside without being joined at the hip to the children the mother will have the ability to volunteer, go to school, retrain for a career, or pursue other things for fulfillment. It’s funny because the sole custody model actually… Read more »
I do wish that a father getting custody always meant that the father would be a consistent presence in their child’s life. Both men and women treat child custody like some sort of trophy, and I’ve seen some mothers, but mostly fathers, gaining full or partial custody simply to get back at the other parent, then dump the kid(s) onto their new spouse. The focus needs to be on what’s truly good for the kids- caring, involved parents who provide stability for their children. Sometimes that will mean that a father has equal or more involvement; sometimes that will mean… Read more »
Since fathers get a tiny share of custody of their children after divorce, I wonder how you came to your conclusion about fathers gaining custody after divorce.
Was it based in fact, or based on impressions and bias? Looking forward to learning more.
By working for two family lawyers, and knowing several more personally. While it’s anecdata, note that I’m not making any empirical claims, and neither are you- one case does not a national trend make.
That’s great. I work with a national parental rights organization.
I’m happy to share educational data with you if you like.
I favor a joint-custody presumption, but given your work, you know this does not mean automatic 50-50 in every case.
Thanks for this piece Vicki. Every voice counts.
I do think a lot of this issue has to do with geographic location and the kind of people who live in a certain area. I was a stay-at-home dad for a few years, and I noticed a big difference in how I was viewed depending on where I was. My wife at the time was active-duty military and, believe it or not, when I found myself around other military families or spouses, the fact that I was a stay-at-home dad wasn’t an issue. There are enough active-duty mothers in the military, and enough stay-at-home dads who utilize on-base resources… Read more »
Glad to hear the military is so enlightened! Pity about the city folk 🙁
You know, when women went into the workplace, there was plenty of surprise then, too. Men haven’t been good about asserting ourselves as equal parents. And there are plenty of men who are happy to ride along with societal norms — let’s be honest, too many men do check out after divorce. That’s not acceptable, and men shouldn’t tolerate it of other men. As for me, I’ve always had my daughter a significant percentage of her time (roughly half of waking hours, and about a third of overall time outside of school; I see her 5-7 days a week). This… Read more »
Strange, I don’t recall men’s groups lobbying to keep women out of the workplace while touting their enthusiasm for working women.
Women got “far worse” when they joined the workforce? Were they actively cut out of their children’s lives? Was the government enforcing their payments for their kids, but not their visitation with their kids?
No, not true at all.
I like the comparison you make. And I think you’re right; fathers do need to assert their right to parenting. Some courts are coming around now and making 50/50 custody standard. The court was surprised when I “agreed” to 50/50. They did not understand that I insisted on it. My ex- was not a good husband, but he was determined to be a good father and he has been a good father. I had no desire to separate him from his daughter, even tho the courts here would have happily done so if I had asked it. I look forward… Read more »
Kuos to you, Kitti, for putting your kid’ needs first! The country needs more parents like yourself.
Kudos to you, Kitti, for putting your kids’ needs first! The country needs more parents like yourself.
Thank you!
Well done, and glad to hear hes trying to be a good father.
We need more Moms like you, for sure.
I spent $30k of my savings trying to get half the time with my sons and got the every-other weekend screw job because the courts are so biased.
You can help, Kitti. Seriously. Tell mainstream feminists that what is known as ‘joint custody presumption’ is NOT ‘forced joint custody” any more than child-support is forced subsidization of an ex’s lifestyle. NOW was instrumental in having California’s legislature rescind joint custody presumption. California, the bluest state in the union! Tell your legislature about your experience while you’re at it, too, even if you have to clothespin your nose and work with FRAs to do it.
Exactly! Well put, Jeff.
It is weird how people lionize men for doing what they should be doing – raising their kids.
It’s disappointing and divisive to make an assault on the praise for caring men. And Tyler, good people do bring children into the world and then soon find that parenting together everyday is bad for them and especially for their child. Sometimes they do this after many years married but without children. It’s compassionate to make a way to let a man who loves his son or daughter share in that wonder and duty. Again, I believe we want to be sure here that our own experiences are not stated as if they’re facts for everybody. It’s sad and hard… Read more »
Oh please. We have had decades of people lionizing women for doing what tyhey should be doing, going out and geting a job to support themsleves. Rosie the Riveter? What a heroine she was, for deigning to take a job that men had literally been killing each other to get just ten years before. Amelia Earhart? She was every grl’s icon back in grade school. So spare me the moralizing about men doing what they should be doing and then getting some credit for it.
A friend of mine is a stay at home stepdad, and it gets pretty bad, as he’s part of a pretty traditional community, so for a man to stay home and take care of a kid, let alone one that isn’t biologically his, is just short of scandalous. But he’s perfected the art of the intimidating smile. Looks perfectly innocent- a toothpaste commercial grin- which can quell any sort of condescending comment someone wants to make. I wish he’d to tutorials.
“And yes, occasionally I get odd comments. So what? ”
Those odd comments can easily turn into baseless allegatins that can you in jail for a very, very long time. That’s what. Wake up and look at the world as it really is.
Thanks for this Vicki. My daughter was 2 and son 6 months when I got divorced. My life work has been to show up for them as a father despite never being granted physical custody. I had to negotiate pretty much every hour I got to see them. My daughter got into college last week. She, her boyfriend, and my 15 year old son were sitting in my living room late one night just afterwards. I was so proud of them for becoming amazing young adults. And I was just a little bit proud of myself for sticking it out… Read more »
Tom, do you feel your custodial situation was fair or equitable? Was it good for your kids?
Did you feel your treatment by the legal system was just and equitable?
This is an honest question, and sorry for being abrupt, but why did you have kids without having a stable relationship in the first place? Divorced 6 months after having a kid – really? That kind of thing always blows my mind.
I don’t think divorce is the demon, here, it’s having kids into crappy relationships that is doing all the damage.
I think there might be some surprise, because men are so rarely equal caregivers before they get divorced. I’m pretty outdoorsy, and I can tell you that it’s ALWAYS the women who have to show up for a bike ride or ski trip with their kids. The men always manage to foist the kids off on their spouse so they can go off and have fun. Most guys do that after they are divorced, too, so of course it’s surprising when they take more of an interest. The funny thing is that this isn’t a criticism, exactly – I don’t… Read more »
“they should insist on 50-50 time whether the guy wants it or not”
Is that really whats best for the kids? I can’t imagine it’d be much fun, or very good for self esteem, to be lumped on a caregiver who doesn’t really want you there while mom goes off for some me time, however much its deserved.
Is what’s really what’s best for the kids forced fatherlessness with Mom? In a situation where she is financially incentivized to cut a child’s father away from her upbringing?
Decades of research on fatherlessness show the lasting harm to children. If you need links to the research, please let me know.
I’m sure it does, but the harm is caused by fathers (or mothers) not wanting to take an active part in their lives. This can’t be rectified by forcing their kids on them, it won’t change how they feel about them and it certainly won’t make the kids more loved.
The financial incentive would equally encourage fathers to consider spending more time with their kids.
You might want to peruse the fathers & Families website for some educational information on the legal and financial barriers fathers face trying to be in their children’s lives when they are divorced or never-married in the first place.
It is a sad and hateful feminist myth that divorced fathers don’t want to spend time with their children.
http://www.fathersandfamilies.org
“I think there might be some surprise, because men are so rarely equal caregivers before they get divorced. ” “The men always manage to foist the kids off on their spouse so they can go off and have fun. Most guys do that after they are divorced, too, so of course it’s surprising when they take more of an interest.” Interesting comment – not much data to support the bigotry, though. It’s surprising how so many women after a divorce take more of an interest in bringing in more income for themselves. At the expense of their ex-husband, of course.… Read more »
Just wait until gay marriage becomes legal and recognized in our “family” courts… Then, we will see true bigotry and bias!! It seems to my peers and I that the divorce courts and litigant-prone attorneys have tapped the bottom of the proverbial (financial) barrel with all of the bankrupt fathers in our country and are greedily awaiting this “new” market to exploit. mjay, I too hope the bigotry and biased incompetence of family court changes. One can hope!
How is it same-sex marriage is a special opportunity in this respect? How is a same-sex divorce different from a different-sex one? We’ve had same-sex marriage here for 20+ years, and there’s no sign this changes divorce much.
Change in respect to opportunity for further exploitation of a legal system by emotional parties and adversarial litigators. We haven’t heard much in this regard. Wait and see.
“”To divorce lawyers, gay marriage is the best thing since the Magna Carta. “It basically doubles the population pool of potential clients.” Manhattan-based lawyer Raoul Felder.
http://www.towleroad.com/2011/07/happy-gay-marriage-day-new-york.html#ixzz1iOXpgOvv
Its a special opportunity because theres fresh muck to rake. LGBT parents often aren’t seen as capable caregivers in the eyes of the community and the law. I’m sure theres more than a few mercenary lawyers (and their clients) who would be willing to exploit this fact to gain custody of children they wouldn’t otherwise.
Eg.: Homophobic grandparents target surviving widow(er)’s kids after his/her partner looses their battle with disease.
Such parents are especially vulnerable when they’re not biologically related to their children. I’ve heard of such parents having to apply to “adopt” kids they’ve been raising for years.
OK; Maybe the US legal system and the weird emphasis on litigation is just beyond my comprehension.
What I do know is that same-sex divorce does not appear to present special challenges here or give rise to particularly ugly cases. In fact, the key learning with same-sex marriage is that is really hasn’t change much – not even the emphasis on heteronormative family structures.
Lars – I suspect that is the issue, the US has a particularly litigious culture. In Canada we haven’t seen any particular uptick in weird family court cases involving LGBT parents, nor is there any consensus that LGBT people are less capable caregivers for their children. Then again we also have a court culture that emphasizes mediation and has strict formulas for who gets money and how much which takes a lot of the acrimony out of settlements (not all of the acrimony, but I am often astounded at alimony payouts in US family court that I hear of –… Read more »
Megan – sounds like the Canadian system is much closer to the Danish one. In particular, things child support, alimony, etc. are done according to formula, with simple defaults that apply in to all but the most unusual situations. Essentially, you’ll be able to figure out what the child support payment is going to be in 10 minutes from a public website; no need or use for a lawyer. And unless you’re going to skip out of the country, you can forget about defaulting on the payments. I have several friends who’ve gone thru’ divorce, with and w/o children, and… Read more »
Well said.
There is actually a TON of data to support the idea that women are the primary caregivers even in two-parent marriages. I’m not sure at all why you think this is just some sort of fantasy. I’ve no idea why there is always a big fight over the kids though. Maybe if it was a legal requirement that each divorced parent HAS to watch the kids 50% of the time, people would think harder before having them and be more careful to not create kids if they don’t want them. I really don’t know. I don’t think it’s all motivated… Read more »
There is actually a TON of data to support the idea that women are the primary caregivers even in two-parent marriages. I’m not sure at all why you think this is just some sort of fantasy.
I agree, this is often the case. Maybe the reaction comes because you present it as if this is always the case?
I see your point, Tyler, but nobody is omniscient. One day, the mother of my daughter, who was then barely two (and whom I left the workforce to care for, mind you) announced, “I wanted to love you, I tried to love you, but I love (Guy A) and always have.” People have a talent for hiding ambivalence.
Tyler, I believe that there’s a struggle between parents over the care of their kids during a divorce because of unresolved adult issues in the marriage. At least that’s the case in many situations. I believe it was the cause of the bitter disputes in my own first marriage when we brought Nicky into the world. It was an act of love committed together, but nurturing our 6-year-old became a source of conflict, especially when she insisted on me settling for visitation to comprise my relationship with our boy. My lawyer in Texas advised me that my chances of winning… Read more »
I must live in a pretty nice place. There are plenty of single dads and divorced dads around here who encounter no suspicion from the moms we know. They have kids ,we have kids, they know each other, we see each other around town,it’s all very accepting.
There have been tons of girl sleepovers at my house where the only guys there have been my son and I. None of the parents had a problem with that. I like where I live.
It sounds like you do live in a nice place, and have nice friends and aquaintances.