On men being men again.
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From “Desire,” a poem by Stephen Dobyns:
Why have men been taught to feel ashamed
of their desire, as if each were a criminal
out on parole, a desperado with a long record
of muggings, rapes, such conduct as excludes
each one from all but the worst company,
and never to be trusted, no never to be trusted?
Why must men pretend to be indifferent as if each
were a happy eunuch engaged in spiritual thoughts?
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The feminists have had their say over the years, and most men got the message: It’s not okay to objectify females, to see them as a conglomeration of body parts, to speak to them as if there is a microphone nestled between their breasts, or to act as if young women strutting the streets in mini-miniskirts and revealing halter tops are the least bit interesting to us unless they also happen to be carrying a copy of Goethe’s Faust. (I just learned that photographers would often stick a copy of Proust or Dostoevski into Marilyn Monroe’s hand before shooting, to round out the picture, so to speak. Ironically, Monroe actually was an avid reader of great literature and, contrary to her two-dimensional, pin-up calendar image, it turns out she was actually a person as well. Who knew?)
So we got it. Women are not merely sexual objects of desire. But what happened to men in the process of their feminist education? Poet Robert Bly, in Iron John, was very critical of typical “New Age Sensitive Males” who had essentially cut off their own genitals in the effort to distance themselves from the macho idiots that incur the wrath of women, and to become the thoughtful feeling blokes women claimed they wanted them to be. There was a rude awakening for many of us though, when we discovered that yes, women wanted us to be sensitive and respectful friends and fellow workers, but more often than not, they still often preferred the “bad boys” in the bedroom. We were duped, and gypped.
I remember as a teenager, the single worst thing a girl could ever say to you was, “Let’s just be friends.” It was the kiss of death. Like Seinfeld’s Soup Nazi, it essentially meant, “NO NOOKIE FOR YOU!” As I got older, just once I wanted a woman to say to me, “Listen, let’s just be lovers, I can’t handle a friendship right now.” I once mentioned this in a stand-up comedy performance, and an enterprising lass in the audience approached me after the show and took me up on it. We made a date to get together, but when I got to her apartment, I found it was filled, floor to ceiling, with 32 years worth of the New York Sunday Times. When I inquired, she said if she ever got around to “catching up,” she would most likely begin with Section Two, the Arts and Leisure pages. Needless to say, this opening conversation was not a harbinger of erotic adventures to come, and I left soon afterward, with a 1973 copy of the Book Review tucked under my arm, a consolation prize.
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My old college friend Billy had a unique way of dealing with the sex and power issues within a stable marriage. He writes: “Even though as a gynecologist, I knew there were better methods available for birth control, I always recommended the old-fashioned diaphragm to couples because it had a distinct advantage: it had to be stored somewhere, usually in the soap dish or shampoo caddy in the shower. Early on in our marriage, I learned that if I let my wife get into bed first, I could go into the bathroom and check the shower, and I could eliminate the guessing game as to whether that night would be a go or not. If the diaphragm was not in the shower, there was only one other place it could be. If it was still in the shower, then I could get into bed with a pre-emptive strike, saying, “Is it okay if I just hold you tonight?” After our last child and after the tubal ligation, I was back out in the woods, figuratively. When I asked my wife if she would mind continuing to use the diaphragm, and she figured out why, I got cut off for a good two weeks.”
I took a popular workshop in the early 80’s called “Men, Sex and Power” (now “The Sterling Men’s Weekend”) in which the following riddle was proposed as a summary of male-female relations around sexuality:
“How does an 800 pound (male) gorilla make love to its (female) mate?”
Answer: “Anyway he wants to.”
The message was that women ultimately want men to be men, and that they want to be “taken,” often with force (in a safe and mutually agreed-upon, consensual way), and it was high time that New Age men—there’s no better way to say it—“got their balls back.” (I actually don’t think women want to be taken by force, except maybe once by Javier Barden; they mostly want us to beg, plead, and clean the house.)
But the message of the gorilla is dangerously close to the belief system of right-leaning Christian groups like The Promise Keepers who assert that a man must reclaim his rightful place as head of the family, the one who “wears the pants,” while the little woman returns to her rightful place as nurturer of hearth and home. Certainly as a society we have thankfully moved way past such limiting roles long ago. But in the sexual arena, even wise teachers of sexuality such as David Deida, author of umpteen books on the subject, insists that in striving for equality of the sexes, women have become more like men, men more like women, and in that sameness we have lost the fundamental male-female energetic polarity that makes for desire, lust, and hot sex. How to bridge this gulf, in which men are men, women are women, and raw, primal desire is real and allowed, yet not cross over into the world of inequality, rigid roles, objectification, and pre-feminist values?
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It’s the marriage of love and desire, the blending of Eros and Agape that has been particularly problematic for men forever: if I want you, I don’t love you, and if I love you, I don’t want you. How many men have sectioned off their lives, keeping love in the home and hiding Eros in the pornography closet?
What would a “Masculinism” movement entail? Preferably, something other than the Bly-inspired Men’s Movement that usually had us sitting in sweat lodges and drumming naked in the woods, desperately trying to reclaim our primitive roots. (Some children’s summer camps try to instill these male instincts early: my friend’s son came back from one such place with the new name, “Flows With the Dolphins.” When I heard that, to honor my sweat lodge experiences, I briefly became “Shvitzing with the Schmucks,” but it didn’t stick.) I don’t think becoming imitation Native Americans is the answer for guys like me, or most men I know. Somewhere between Ward Cleaver and Geronimo the answer lies.
My friend Charley, however, a veteran of the Men’s Movement, points out, in its defense, that “Men in America are divorced from the earth, the sky, the air and fire and water and every thing that made men men for thousands of years because they were close to nature.” (I beg to differ; when I was a kid, there was no such thing, for example, as indoor malls. When my mother took me shopping for clothes, all of the stores were right out in the open, exposed to the elements. And she often allowed my brother and me to set up our little pup tent in the living room, where we kept a window open so we could hear the crickets and other wildlife sounds of the Fair Lawn, New Jersey nights. Cut off from nature? I don’t think so.)
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—Photo Ben Husmann/Flickr
When I think of “masculinism” I think it’s men being critical of masculinity – that thing that our culture uses to define human beings born with a penis. This article really only touches on the libido and neglects to discuss other issues that deserve to be included in any discussion about “masculinism”. Issues like why is misogyny a cornerstone to the male identity?
Wonderful thought provoking article by someone who doesn’t pretend to know all the answers. In the matter of sex I have conducted myself on the suck it and see method. (no pun intended) If one approach didn’t work, try another. Turns out one of the most successful ploys from my experience, is to ask questions of the young lady, making sure the questions are about her, look into her eyes, then shut your mouth and, here’s the difficult part…LISTEN! I once listened to someone for two hours at a party many years ago, barely inserting the odd, really? or uhhuh.… Read more »
There are much worse problems with todays society, many are derived from binary thinking and inability to critically think and develop a personality for oneself.
We need fewer isms, not more.
I share your ism-hatred Will.
And that, my friend, is why no respectable institution of higher education will ever award either of us a PhD in philosophy. 😉
Men love p*ssy so much that eventually become one…
In deed, it is way past time for men to own their authentic power, their balls and desire. Denying it does not work and drives us to depression, fear of being a man and ultimately, makes our intimacy an impotent failure. Being a man does not mean demeaning women, it means empowering them as well. A friend, David Bruce Leonard wrote a book…’How to Worship the Goddess and Keep Your Balls’. At 60, I love my lust; not just as a sexual being, but as a man who lusts after living his mission. Maybe the next phase of our mens’… Read more »
It’s funny how often the percentage of female CEOs comes up when people talk about all the obvious examples of how men still dominate society. Nobody ever mentions the percentage of female homeless people, convicted criminals, wrongly convicted criminals, military deaths, occupational deaths, murder victims. etc. Women are vastly under-represented in these categories. Where’s the outrage?
More men are murder victims because more men are in gangs or involved in criminal lifestyles that lead to being murdered. It’s not like vast numbers of surburban dads are being gunned down randomly. It’s young men in lower socioeconomic groups who are getting murdered. The murder rate among young inner city men is tragic but I think there’s a lack of outrage because the statistics are seen to be driven by personal choices. Similarly, being arrested, joining the military and working in hazardous jobs are choices. We can talk about socioeconomic factors that influence those choices but the most… Read more »
What bothers me is that people will ignore those percentages you mention Maggator, point to the few men at the top, and declare that men control society as if we are some monolithic entity.
“I also agree with the above comment that men still hold an unequal amount of power in our society. The inequality is apparent to anybody who looks at the # of male and female CEOs and politicians.” That’s what Donna said a few replies above…. This is an absolutely true statement, I believe called androcracy… However where many feminists get things wrong is when they conflate that idea with the idea that men as a class hold power over women as a class. Now, I don’t know that the average man has much more power than the average woman. One… Read more »
Shouldn’t it create it’s own theory instead of building on what feminism started.
It most certainly should be able to do just that. Frankly a good bit of the push against masculinism seems to boil down to “but feminism already covers that”. If that were the case then why are there men that are choosing to go in a different direction? You’re not going to win people to your cause by telling them your cause already has everything they need while at the same time shutting them out when they try to speak.
But men do have the freedom not to be a provider, breadwinner, protector or father. You can be a lifelong bachelor if you want. No one forces you to get married or have children. I realize there is social pressure (as a single woman without kids, I really do understand the enormous pressure put on those of us who don’t follow a conventional life script), but to say that men don’t have options doesn’t make much sense to me. I’m in agreement on selective service, though. I think if there is a draft it should be mandatory for both men… Read more »
Jill,
Actually, I think we are in disagreement, I am for ending the Selective Service altogether, not administering it for both genders. There are two arguments that often get confused-one is women’s rights to fight in combat roles–I have heard this described as benevolent sexism by some feminists. The other is ending Selective Service altogether which I am personally for. Anyways, I do know that some anti-war advocates have proposed what you are mentioning as it would surely increase anti-war sentiment for precisely the reasons you state.
“How does an 800 pound (male) gorilla make love to its (female) mate?” Answer: “Anyway he wants to.” This person is describing rape: ignoring the other person’s feelings because you have total power over them. And they make it sound fun. I know you don’t agree with it, but why is that joke in this discussion? Why would anyone have anything to say about that joke except that it’s disgusting? Why do you use the term ‘taken by force’ which has no use other than being a nicer way to say ‘rape’? I do what a lot of people do:… Read more »
Well it was interesting Daniel, because after spending the weekend with some 200+ men, the leaders brought in about 20 women to stand on stage and answer any and all questions, no matter how blunt. And in fact, that particular group of women, anyway, agreed with the message of that gorilla riddle; they wanted their men, their husbands and boyfriends, to at least be willing to sometimes simply “take” them, but obviously within the context of a loving consensual relationship, so it bears no relationship to rape, more in the realm of sex play. I don’t that sort of fantasy… Read more »
missing a word above: “I don’t think that that sort of fantasy which COULD be called rape fantasy, is so very uncommon etc…”
It’s interesting, and yes that is worth discussing. But the distinction of fantasy is all-important -I didn’t see that distinction made, and I mean no offence, but this didn’t feel like a context where that could be taken for granted. And then I start wondering why women might be have that kind of fantasy -do they have it more than men? Are women just more able (and more permitted) to decide they enjoy feeling submissive at times? I know I’ve had a variation of that fantasy. Also: I’m not a submissive person. Similarly I date a woman with that fantasy,… Read more »
Wanting someone to be more aggressive with you and make all the work in a consensual way could never, in a more deep perspective, be called “rape” fantasy – rape is all about non-consent. And that is interesting you say it can be common among “women and “submissive” men”. This speech makes it sound like women are always submissive, or that only men can choose between dominant and submissive. Dominating women (if you believe they exist) and men could never have fantasies of this type? I believe that, in a lot of Countries, women are still castrated to show less… Read more »
My main problem with this article, and many on this website, is that it supposes there is only one type of masculinity and that that is what defines being a man. I would be all for a masculinism movement if it was about accepting all types of masculinity rather than just the traditional one. And just because a man is sensitive and caring doesn’t make him not tough. I’m a very sensitive, caring and pro-feminist man, but I’ve also been through a lot of pain in my life and have come out on top because I’m tough. I also think… Read more »
ClayTheScribe – are you reading the same articles that I am reading on this website? I see a pretty broad spectrum of conversation. Keep coming back and see if there isn’t more diversity than you think.
As a queer bystander in the war between the sexes, I’m always struck by the way men and women blame themselves for having inherently incompatible sexual agendas. After a six pack, I listen to straight male friends admit the truth about married sex and want to shout “Stop beating yourself! It’s not your fault! It’s not her fault! It’s nobody’s damn fault!” Stability and excitement are antithetical, domesticity kills passion, and you can’t be both a comfy cushion and a bolt of lightening – at least not to the same partner. These aren’t choices any more than gravity is, which… Read more »
Thank you for this Bryan. Your response touched me, felt spot on, and amazingly clear. –Eliezer
Bryan, I have a question. How does a gay man say: “Attraction and sexuality exist for the continuance of the species, not for the happiness of the individual.” ? I honestly don’t understand that statement coming from someone who, by his sexuality, enjoys sex not to “continue the species” but to further his “happiness as an individual.” Help me understand that. Also, as someone who is happily married and still enjoying sex exclusively with my wife, I could not disagree more with your statement: “We could start by saying out loud, if only to each other, as men, that monogamy… Read more »
You make a good point, especially with the second paragraph. I think some number of people focus so heavily on how to GET a significant other that they never really put any thought into how to keep it up. Also, I know a lot of people think it’s incredibly romantic when sex happens “spontaneously,” but some amount of pre-foreplay that can be really helpful. Or rather, it’s nice when my partner expressing affection and interest in me isn’t an indication that he wants sex to happen NOW. Also, is it really so stressful for most guys to be told that… Read more »
Hi Riti! Mostly that phrase dates back to high school days when the message of “let’s just be friends” very clearly meant “I am not interested in you in ‘that’ way and I’m only saying ‘let’s just be friends’ to be nice and soften the blow.” But the average, pimply insecure teenage boy will generally interpret “let’s just be friends” as “She thinks I’m a complete loser and she’s probably laughing at me with her friends.” As an adult, it has been a long time since I’ve been single, but in the dim recesses of my memory, I don’t think… Read more »
As someone who admittedly has used the “I like you as a friend” line, what’s a better way to let a guy know, nicely, that you don’t reciprocate his sexual feelings? Sometimes a woman really does like a guy a lot as a friend, but there’s no chemistry. That’s not anyone’s fault. Not every guy I’m attracted to feels the same way about me.
There’s always the old stand-by: “It’s not you, it’s me; I’m just not available for an intimate relationship right now because of ____________.” Fill in the blank: “I’m just getting over a difficult break-up; my entire extended family just perished in a mine shaft explosion; the doctor says I might never make love again and if I do the man’s penis is likely to become disengaged from his body; my family only permits me to date men from Latvia.”
Ahhh, so is it probably more of a self-esteem thing than disappointment with the fact that she declined a relationship? That makes more sense to me; I’ve known some guys who feel like they need to “objectively better” than the competition in order to get a girl, and they always seem to feel a lot more distressed when a girl declines a date with them than most of their peers. If feminism has been moving us away from cultures where young men could count on sexual interactions with women in order to get some sense of self-worth, I think it’s… Read more »
Thanks for your question. Whenever we discuss existence, our need to assign meaning to ours tends to cause us to confuse the wherefores with the whys, when in fact the two are often unrelated. Our need for meaning is so strong that we tend to stack the semantic deck in a way that guarantees we’ll find it, even if we’re cheating ourselves at solitaire. This is never clearer than in discussions of evolution. Our insistence on meaning results in misstatements like “The human visual system was designed to…” These are all based on the implicit assumption that cause and effect… Read more »
Given that most people, whether liberal or conservative, genuinely want to live in a society where stable longterm relationships are possible and children are able to grow up with loving parents and stable home lives, how would you reconcile that with the idea that men should reclaim their rights to f$&k like animals? As a woman, I do not see much benefit for myself in such a society, honestly. Unless we are talking about a society where men basically become irrelevant as fathers and husbands, and simply act as mobile spem donors. Because if a man is out f$&king everything… Read more »
Bryan, thanks for your thoughtful response. I understand your points – don’t agree with them – but I think I understand what you are saying. You say: “Like everything else about us, the purpose of sexuality is found art we make out of materials discovered in a junk yard not of our creation. Part of my point is that we should treat the often lurching, clattering Rube Goldberg result (and by extension, ourselves) with generosity, compassion, and humor.” I agree that we should be gentle with ourselves. There is a Rube Goldberg quality to the psyches we cobble together over… Read more »
To tag on to Cy’s response (which I fully support): Is it time for resurgence of masculinism? Yes. But this time the goal should be to achieve social acceptance and liberate the stigma that surrounds antiquated (and constraining) views of male sexuality. Along with the feminist movement, men have fought to gain equal rights for statutory rape laws, child custody and military draft regulations to name a few. Women have come a long way from days of Emily Post, and have broken down gender barriers. Now it’s time to fight against societal “norms” and allow men to be men, without… Read more »
This article gets too many things backwards…
No wonder men are having such a hard time being men when they want to cater to princesses (royalty, supremacists…) in order to feel like men or feel any semblance of happiness?
Interesting article, but I actually think men (and women, come to think of it) have much freer rein in modern, American society to express and indulge their sexuality than they have throughout most of history. But I do agree that there is still a double-standard that is holding men back from feeling fully well/fulfilled–and it’s actually precisely the opposite of this retro hyper-masculinity movement. In this age when women are allowed to dress/comport/express their identities in a pretty full range (all the way from ass-kicking butch/tomboy to lovely-in-lingerie frilly/lacy), men are still stuck in a fairly rigid range of what’s… Read more »
“The feminists have had their say over the years, and most men got the message.” In what world are you referring to? This is one the dumbest articles I have read on here.
So we got it. Women are not merely sexual objects of desire. But what happened to men in the process of their feminist education? You know for a while I was wondering about that question but over time I saw the answer for myself. In my own experience when it came to feminists education men only show up when they are useful. Frankly instead of trying to change that I just struck out on my own to find my own way. What would a “Masculinism” movement entail? I can’t speak definitively what it would entail but I do think, at… Read more »
I agree with MasMadness. It’s important for each individual man to think about what manhood and masculinity mean to him, and how he chooses to draw goodness and strength from them. What I’m bothered by is the idea that feminism has in some way forced men to distance themselves from their desire, or feel guilty about it. I’m not sure why that should be the case. Being horny or aggressive or even crude doesn’t necessarily mean being a sexist asshole. Respect is not an either/or. I don’t understand why people think it’s impossible to view and treat a woman as… Read more »
“The feminists have had their say over the years, and most men got the message: It’s not okay to objectify females, to see them as a conglomeration of body parts, to speak to them as if there is a microphone nestled between their breasts, or to act as if young women strutting the streets in mini-miniskirts and revealing halter tops are the least bit interesting to us unless they also happen to be carrying a copy of Goethe’s Faust. ” These issues are actually still a problem for most women. I don’t find that most men are aware in the… Read more »
We don’t speak hatred of women (equality-based women are awesome!), but do speak rightfully of a high level of disdain for entitled, manipulative, abusive royalty called princesses.
If that much truth isn’t too “offensive” and doesn’t shake you into convulsions, then try this truth about glass ceilings, oppression, etc.:
https://www.youtube.com/user/TheHappyMisogynist#p/u/4/oMzcMATRGmE
In a word, no. “How to bridge this gulf, in which men are men, women are women, and raw, primal desire is real and allowed, yet not cross over into the world of inequality, rigid roles, objectification, and pre-feminist values?” You do it yourself. The whole reason feminism is an “ism” is because it absolutely required some form of solidarity to make it happen. The inverse is not the case. We don’t need an “ism”. We need men making good decisions, of their own accord, every day. Be smarter, be more well rounded and more critical of the various idiotic… Read more »
Movements are for power. Men still have that in our society. We need better men, and better men are forged with better decision making. I’m sorry but I have to disagree with that. It isn’t a matter of men having power but a matter of men with the wrong mentality having power. There are plenty of good men out there making proper decisions. And I would go as far as to say that those men do need to come together and show that we exist. And right now I really don’t think that men that are making those better having… Read more »
And for those men looking to be in community with other men … making good decisions, empowering, mentoring, supporting and challenging one another … there is a great opportunity in the ManKind Project [http://mankindproject.org]. Men ‘going it alone’ is the old way – isolating, lonely, relying on women to meet our emotional needs, denying our dark sides and repressing the brilliance we are capable of manifesting in the world. The ManKind Project has been a life-changing part off my life for 8 years now – and I have met the best, most evolved, wise men I’ve ever known in MKP… Read more »