Shining a Light on Men and Mindfulness

Patricia Greenberg:
Mhm. Mhm. So, there are a lot of lonely people out there. And, you know, what holds men back from engaging in community the same way women do?

I’m such an extrovert, and I’ve learned over the years—now that I’m in my 60s—to be a little more delicate with people who are introverts, or when I approach people.

This is a little aside, Vic, that we didn’t really discuss, but sometimes people who aren’t shy will say, “Hey, what’s wrong with you? Come on, let’s go! Let’s get out, let’s do something.” And people who are shy will retreat even further from someone doing that to them.

So, in an effort to make someone feel less lonely, we might actually make the situation worse—and vice versa.

You know, I find that because I’ll talk to anybody at any time, I try—especially with my male friends—to pull them out a little bit, the same way I do with my women friends. But what holds men back from engaging in community the same way women do?

Vic Calderola:
Well, this is something I’ve seen in the men’s groups I lead. It’s pretty clear that men are far less likely to reach out and build friendship circles with individuals who are not family.

Patricia:
Mhm.

Vic:
So, whereas women generally socialize within female “clans,” meaning they have a wide circle of friends, there’s no disconnect for women remaining close friends—going to lunch together, taking a walk together. These are not things men tend to do.

We have social restrictions against men’s behavior and how it’s expressed. Think about what a friendship consists of—you have empathy, compassion, face-to-face discussion—and these are mostly necessary for friendships to bloom. For the most part, these are all aspects of socialization that men aren’t terribly good at.

Patricia:
I understand there have also been changes in social connection and community involvement over the years. What can you tell us about that—particularly men getting involved in their communities?

Vic:
Yeah, that’s very true. Once again, the statistics show that both men and women are far less attached to their communities than they were, say, 30 years ago.

But for men in particular, they were, until fairly recently, engaged in things like civic clubs, religious groups, labor unions, community events of various kinds. Through the ’60s, ’70s, and ’80s, they were also members of fraternal organizations such as the Elks Club, Odd Fellows, Freemasons, Knights of Columbus—my dad was a member of the Knights of Columbus—and various veterans’ groups.

These were organizations for men—some more secretive than others—but essentially they were safe places for men to gather, open to pretty much any fellow who expressed interest.

That’s something we don’t really have today. The membership of these organizations has sharply declined. They might still be around, but it’s much more difficult for men to engage in them.

Patricia:
That’s also true with things like scouting and 4-H clubs. When we were kids, our parents—both mothers and fathers—encouraged us to join sports or civic groups. Children were involved from a young age.

But I still find it interesting that men hold back on forming those deep, intimate, emotional relationships with other men the way women do—in a completely nonsexual way. It’s interesting.

And men are less likely than women to report that they’re lonely.

Vic:
Yes, absolutely. I have never, to this day, in all the groups I’ve led, heard a man actually say, “I’m lonely.” But it’s really just a façade—a restriction we place on ourselves.

The theory is that we might look weak or vulnerable if we say that. And that’s partly due to how men see themselves individually.

In the mindfulness work we do in the groups, just sitting together brings men closer—it’s an unusual activity, and that helps. One of the key elements of mindfulness is what we call accept yourself, or think of yourself as a good friend.

Accept yourself just as you are—all the positives and negatives. And that’s very similar, I noticed, to one of the acronyms in your book: SELF—“See Everything Like a Friend.” It’s a very similar concept, and it helps a great deal.

Patricia:
Yes. But beyond those one-to-one experiences, it’s hard to measure what we think of as negative bias.

How do we know men tend not to report their loneliness? It’s very difficult to measure.

I think a lot of humans—our society has bred this into us—that if there’s something wrong, or something that makes you feel weak or “less than,” or something that sets you apart, instead of saying, “I need help; I feel left out,” we keep it to ourselves.

Nobody wants to be ostracized or feel like they’re the odd man out, which I think makes it even worse.

I read in your literature that upon separating from a marriage or intimate relationship, women report a two-fold increase in loneliness, whereas men—those who do report it—show a 13-times increase in loneliness. Interesting, Vic. Is that a perceived reliance on another person?

Vic:
Yes. A serious mistake that many men make when they become partnered or married is to invest the entirety of their social lives in their female partners or wives.

Many of them sit back and rely on their partners, who are often much better at social connection than they are. Women, on the other hand, tend to do quite the opposite—they invest even more social capital into their networks of friends and families. So when relationships fail, men often find themselves with no support structure.

Patricia:
Yeah.

Vic:
The way we face loneliness is very much tied to how we were raised and taught to approach friendships.

We know today that nurture, or gender socialization, is a powerful influence on men’s behavior. The model that first developed in the 1990s is known as the man box culture, and it places numerous restrictions on our behavior.

We learn these from a very young age—from the bullies in the playground, if you will. We learn how to “become men.”

We learn to act tough, even in moments of fear or sadness. We learn to be self-sufficient and avoid showing emotions. We learn to be the primary income-earner and avoid responsibility for household chores. We learn to dominate women as sexual objects, and to be competitive with peers—while avoiding anything that may appear “gay.”

If you put all that together, those are pretty severe restrictions.

Patricia:
Yeah. Yeah. Are younger men open to the changes in the world that women are experiencing now—the freedoms women have?

Vic:
I’d say it depends on the age group we’re talking about, but younger men, in general, are much more open to those changes. They’re more willing to engage in relationships with women who are feminists and who express that point of view.

So yes, there’s a difference, but it’s tricky to pinpoint without defining the specific age group.

Patricia:
Yeah. So, two things. We’ve talked about engagement with people—it’s important to have someone to go to, preferably a handful of people. You’re saying that men might put all their emotional stake in a spouse, and then, upon divorce or death, they’re left with no social network or support group.

But what stops men from having that casual lunch, that hangout date, that women do?

My girlfriends and I do that all the time. I’ll say, “Okay, who can I call to go do this or that?” I have friends who are good at different things, and that’s who I call.

I’m very blessed that I have male friendships too—men I’ve known since childhood. Guys I grew up with are still close friends today, and there’s never been any kind of sexual connotation; we’re just friends.

So I’ll often say to a male friend, “Hey, I’m going to be in town—want to grab a cup of coffee?” I don’t think anything of it. But a lot of men do. A lot of men put tremendous weight on going out for a cup of coffee.

Vic:
Yeah, that’s very true.

This goes back to the masculine rules enforced by male peers. That’s an important point—because the same male peers who could become your friends are also the enforcers.

Most men aren’t aware of the “man box” until they make a mistake and someone in the locker room says, “Oh, stop acting like such a…”—you know, some version of that.

When we think about the kinds of activities men and women engage in, men tend to favor what we call shoulder-to-shoulder activities rather than face-to-face ones. Women tend to favor face-to-face.

Most men are uncomfortable sitting face-to-face with each other—especially alone.

There are exceptions, of course, and some men are becoming aware of this dynamic today. Whereas our fathers probably thought of it as simply “acting like a man,” younger people—especially Gen Z—are realizing this isn’t just the nature of men; it’s something imposed on us. They’re beginning to break out of that pattern, which is great to see.

Patricia:
Yeah.

Vic:
But if you’re, say, in your late 60s like I am, chances are your dad assumed that’s just the way things were—and took pride in it. Often dismissing women as a result, which is perceived by many as abusive.

Patricia:
Right. So men said, “This is the way it is,” and became dismissive of women’s nurturing—what they called the “weaker sex.” That drove them further apart rather than bringing understanding and compassion between men and women.

More recently, we’ve seen improvement, but many people suffered for years due to this communication gap—hence Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus. It all plays a role, even in same-sex relationships.

Let’s discuss a little bit, Vic—what fuels the male loneliness epidemic, starting with connectedness?

Vic:
Okay. So, just to reflect on what you said—men can have women as friends, but most who do are not partnered. Once we’re partnered, we see it as a conflicting situation.

To have a woman as a new friend when you’re already in a relationship seems tricky, because of the assumption that it might become something intimate.

Patricia:
Why is that the first place people go?

Vic:
Good question.

Men often say they can’t relate to a woman the same way they relate to a man—and that’s understandable. But many also admit that makes them uncomfortable. They assume women exist for their pleasure, to put it bluntly.

So, if a woman is a friend, some men see that awkwardly—because they’ve been socialized to perceive women primarily as sexual objects.

Patricia:
Interesting. As a woman who likes having a lot of friends, I feel it’s often just innocent communication.

If men and women—anyone, really—are feeling lonely, you should be able to have friends of all kinds: men, women, old, young. We should be open and free to do that.

But there are so many self-imposed and social restrictions placed on it. That’s what I was getting at—how can we remedy that? If you refuse friendship based on an assumption, you’ve already cut out a whole group of people who could be social outlets.

Vic:
Exactly.

And keep in mind, men do this with other men as well.

For example, a friend of mine, Tom, attends Sunday service at a local church. He meets a new fellow there—they get to talking. If they were two women, what would happen next? They’d probably plan lunch, an activity, or a phone call.

But as two men, they’re immediately confronted with: What do we do next? What can we do and not seem gay? What can we do and not seem to be cheating on our wives?

There are all these issues that come into play. I can tell you from experience—it’s a difficult challenge.

What some men do, myself included, is bring that awkwardness out into the open. You sort of plow through it—acknowledge it implicitly, and meet anyway. It works great, but not everyone can do that.

Patricia:
It’s so sad, Vic. In every aspect of life—friendships, careers, clothing, whatever—it’s that we care what other people think.

That’s my opening line in my book: the number-one key to aging well and finding happiness is not caring what anybody thinks. That’s everyone’s Mount Everest.

How do we get past caring what people think? You’re in a small town having coffee with a guy, and everyone’s gossiping—“What are they doing together?” Instead of saying, “Hey, that’s great—two guys getting together, building friendship.” It’s sad.

Vic:
Oh, it is. Absolutely.

And we have even more serious problems. Loneliness is a serious issue, but it’s attached to anger and aggression—two other aspects of that “man box.”

The culture encourages men that if you’re going to express emotion, it better be anger. You can’t cry, you can’t be sad, you can’t be vulnerable—but anger is acceptable.

As a result, we have serious problems: suicides and “deaths of despair” have increased almost 200% among men in the past 15 years. We have toxic behaviors—MeToo-type issues—violence, especially domestic violence.

And, as you mentioned, loss of social connections. There’s also the rise of the “manosphere” groups—some of which are hate-filled and misogynistic. They attract a lot of young men.

Patricia:
Yes. And with communication and technology—it’s changed everything. Older adults are getting more comfortable with technology, but young men have been on it from an early age.

My daughter’s in her 20s—she’s had a phone since she was little. Kids can hide behind technology. Older people aren’t as comfortable with that, so younger people develop online friendships and work environments, while older men struggle to adapt.

That leads to even more isolation. If you’re not “on the tech,” you’re an outcast.

Vic:
I agree. In fact, I’d say part of the business model of social media is to make you feel lonely.

And what you’re saying about the generations is so true. For anyone over 50, it’s a real conundrum.

I’ll text a young relative and never hear back. Later they’ll say, “Oh, I don’t use SMS—I use WhatsApp or Discord.” I know what those are, but I don’t typically use them.

There’s so much variety in communication platforms now—it’s hard to keep up with what’s popular.

Patricia:
Exactly. In the early days, even texting was confusing! You’d rather just call someone and say, “Let’s meet at noon.”

Vic, you also mentioned earlier how work plays such a strong role in men’s identities—and how forced retirement or ageism, even starting at 50, has put a huge dent in socializing.

Vic:
Oh yes, for sure. Men, in particular, have always identified strongly with their work—for a couple of reasons. It’s a way to demonstrate competence, and competence is vital to the male ego.

It’s also a common way of socializing. Work isn’t that different from a football game—you’re engaged in a shared framework. It’s a safe, stable place to be social while feeling capable.

Patricia:
Exactly. Work is actually a great place to socialize—you can be friends with anyone, and leave it at the door at 5:00. But without that, you’d feel really lost.

There’s this outdated idea that “you’re not here to make friends, you’re here to do a job.” To me, that’s the total opposite of what makes life rich.

Vic:
I agree completely.

Patricia:
Before we wrap up—you wrote about romantic disillusionment, modern dating, social media, and the competitive landscape of dating apps. Thousands of profiles—half probably fake—and now AI making it worse.

I wish we could go back to old-fashioned dating: meeting in person.

Vic:
I know. Yes, a lot of men—and increasingly women—are disillusioned with dating apps. They’re pretty awful.

For men, it creates a competitive environment. They feel assessed or compared to others—none of which feels good. You’re being scrutinized like a checklist. There’s no natural spark or easy way to get to know someone casually anymore.

Patricia:
Yes, there’s so much to unpack—literally! (That’s a new word we didn’t use when we were young, but it’s a good one.)

Collectively, if we could all work toward helping people feel comfortable—encouraging them to share, take chances, be vulnerable, and find ways to be more social—that would be huge.

Men and women can be friends. Men can be friends with men. It’s never too late to make new friends.

I can’t encourage that enough.

And I want to thank you so much, Vic Calderola, for joining us today.

For more information about Vic and the Shine Men’s Project, go to **www.shinemenspro.net**—we’ll put that up when the show is available.

Vic, can you tell us what you like about getting older?

Vic:
Ah—me?

Patricia:
Yes, you.

Vic:
Well, I’d say I know myself better now. I’m much more comfortable and at ease in relationships—and much more comfortable stepping beyond that man box.

And if I may, I’d like to leave your viewers with a quote from Woody Allen—one of my favorites:

“Life is full of misery, loneliness, and suffering—and it’s all over too soon.”

Patricia:
(Laughs.) Yeah, that’s food for thought for sure.

So again, thank you so much, Vic Calderola, for joining us today. And thank you to everyone listening, for being here on It’s Okay to Be Old.

Please subscribe to my channel, Patricia Greenberg, for more engaging discussions on all things aging