A lot of guys lament the fact that they have to be the ones to initiate with women… Dr. NerdLove examines whether that’s true, and why.
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One of the most recurring complaints that I hear from men, both here and in my columns at Kotaku, is that women don’t approach enough. Many, many guys, especially ones who are more socially inexperienced or who deal with acute approach anxiety, regularly lament the fact that men are expected to do all the hard work when it comes to trying to start a relationship and wish women would help out by being willing to make the first move.
Of course, all too often this goes from simply wishing that women would approach more to folks explaining ((By which I mean: people making shit up)) that women are the sexual gatekeepers – especially in the short-term – and generally like being in charge, thus feel no need to go out and be the initiators like they should. Moreover – so the complaint goes – women have the power to not just shut down but ruin someone by unfairly labeling him “creepy” and insist that women need to be more considerate of the feelings of the men they’re rejecting… maybe even stopping to give him lessons in how to get her to like him so he can do better next time.
The thing is: women do approach guys. All the time in fact. Women frequently message guys they’re interested in when it comes to online dating; it just seems less significant compared to the many men who will shotgun out messages. Other times they get brushed off by the men because they’re not the women those men want to approach them. Then, there are the times when guys don’t recognize that someone is trying to make the first move. More often than not the way women approach men they’re interested in doesn’t match up with how they picture the approach going. She may use proximity and body language to try to catch his attention and signal that she wants to talk to him, she makes an observation about something or finds an excuse to talk with him about, say, a class they have in common, as a way of breaking the ice.
If some of these sound familiar, they should… these are many of the ways men approach women. Most forms of indirect openers and indirect “game” from PUA circles are variations of techniques that women have used to signal interest without being too overt.
But the fact of the matter is, more men make the approach than women do. However, once you understand the social dynamics of why women don’t approach, it becomes much easier to create an environment where women feel empowered to make the first move, too.
Many Women Aren’t Comfortable Making The First Move
Quick virtual show of hands. How many of the men reading this have had to deal with approach anxiety? If you’re like me – and I know I am – then you’re intimately familiar with the heart palpitations, the sweaty palms, the dry mouth and the infinite variations of “What’s Going To Go Wrong” that flash through your head when you’re trying to psych yourself up to make the approach.
Guess what? Women feel the exact same way.
Guys often get too caught up in the idea of “woman as gatekeeper”, where women “control” the market on sex because they want it less than men do and therefore can afford to be pickier. Because they perceive women as the ones who ultimately control access to sex, they tend to miss out on a very fundamental issue: women hate getting rejected too.
One of the insidious issues of the idea that women are somehow in charge of dating and have it so much easier than men do is that it invalidates and erases every woman who’s ever been rejected by somebody she’s attracted to. When guys insist that any woman could go out and get laid if she wanted, this actually makes it harder for women to make the first move by increasing the potential fear of rejection; after all, if any woman can get laid and she can’t get a guy to go out to dinner with her, what does that say about her?
Moreover, in order to make the first approach, women have to overcome generations of social programming that insist that women never make the first move. Everything in our culture drills “men make the first move” into women’s heads. The traditional gender roles of man-as-aggressor are continually reinforced by our culture and society; witness the slut-shaming that Miley Cyrus gets for being an active – rather than passive – sexual performer. Even in this day and age, the sexually-aggressive woman is a figure of ridicule (especially if she’s played by Rebel Wilson rather than Kim Cattrall) . The Rules may seem like a quaint relic of the 90s, but Ellen Fein and Sherrie Schneider have published a new version just last year, which is doing well for itself over at Amazon.
So not only do women have your garden variety approach anxiety, but also have the specter of generations of socialization and gender roles that says “men don’t like girls who are too forward” and “if you make the first move, they’ll think you’re a slut” being dropped on top of that like a 400 lb weight on a balloon full of shit. And recognizing that fact just makes it even morefrustrating because theoretically they should be better than that.
But gender roles, no matter how outdated, are damned hard to overcome. Don’t forget: guys freak out over something as innocuous as braiding hair. But as it turns out, women have a good reason to be extra nervous about flaunting gender roles because…
Some Men React Badly To Being Approached
A lot of what makes us react one way or another to somebody is unconscious. When we see somebody, we instinctively process many, many non-verbal clues as to the person’s inner character from the way they walk, the way they smell and the way they interact with other people. One of the benefits of being approached, rather than being the approacher, is that you have more time to get a read on somebody. The manner in which they approach you tells you a lot about their personality and their level of confidence or social intelligence1; this can make the difference between being attracted to someone or having them set off your creeper-sense.
When you’re making the approach, unless you’ve been scoping them for a while, you’ve got considerably less info to work with. And that lack of info can be especially important for women. Remember what I said about how some guys freak out over overturned gender roles? This includes when women do the approaching. There are many men who are profoundly uncomfortable with any sort of non-traditional forms of gender-expression whether it’s through looks or behavior, and by trying to make an overt move, women risk stepping squarely on that particular emotional landmine.
On the low end of the spectrum, some men will be profoundly turned off by a woman approaching them. They have issues with aggressive or strong women – women who don’t conform to the “traditional values” of being meek and subservient, and a woman who flouts convention in that way will repulse them. Yes, finding out early that a guy is threatened by assertive women is generally a good thing – it means he’s self-selected out of that woman’s dating pool and good riddance. However, those guys rarely do so quietly. For all the times guys have worried about the “eww no” reaction from women that they approach, women are more likely to be insulted loudly and very publicly. If they’re lucky. Because at the other end of the spectrum are the guys who will feel like she’s a pushy bitch who needs to be taught her place. Sometimes physically.
The “bad reaction” isn’t just about potential physical threats. Because women generally don’t approach men, there will be plenty of men who will assume that the woman has far moresexual interest than she actually does. After all, since the cultural narrative is that women don’t make the first move, she must be really into him by coming up to him. Or maybe she’s just extra slutty. Either way, they’ll take her being forward as license to be even moreaggressive than they might be otherwise.
Amongst the less socially experienced, there are plenty of well-intentioned men who will assume that a woman who made the approach is in love with them – or something very close to it – and up attaching themselves onto her like a lost gosling. Less physically threatening but still painfully uncomfortable under the best of circumstances.
Now, are all guys like this? No. Are you like this? Hopefully not. Here’s the thing though: women can’t tell this from just looking at you. Not every Brohemian is a collar-popping date rapist and not every quiet geeky wallflower is a shy Prince Charming waiting to be discovered. Sometimes the bro is really cool. Sometimes the geek is the one who you have to be worried about. So on top of the cultural baggage and the approach anxiety, a woman who may want to approach a man has to roll on the singles bar random encounters table2 and hope she doesn’t roll low.
Let’s be honest: if every time a man approached a woman there was a not-insignificant chance that she was actually a gorgon, men would be a lot less likely to approach strangers.
(Well, with the exception of that one freakin’ munchkin min-maxer who’d be pulling the Monty Hall probability stunt every time. But I digress…)
They Often Don’t Know How
Another issue that women often face when it comes to being the one to make the first move: they often don’t know how. Just like guys don’t.
Being female isn’t proof against social awkwardness, and trying to figure out how to “get a relationship” doesn’t get any easier just because you’re a woman. Just ask my friend Arden Leigh, whose job is all about teaching women how to embrace their inner Catwoman and find the relationship they’ve been looking for.
“But why can’t she just come up and say ‘hi’?” I hear some of you ask. Well… for the exact same reasons a lot of socially awkward guys don’t, but with the added benefit of social expectations working against them. Not only does she have to figure out how to get over her own approach anxiety, but she has to convey her interest without seeming slutty or being too interested and coming across as a potential Overly Attached Girlfriend ((Incidentally, Laina Morris, the face of OAG is actually pretty damn cool).
Let’s not forget, if it was so easy for people to just make the first move and meet awesome single people, Match wouldn’t exist, Cosmo would lose half its pages and I wouldn’t have a job.
Now, one of the things I’ve mentioned before is that women have more of a societally accepted support system for getting better at dating than men do (a reason why I write this blog). However, many of the flirting techniques women are taught and encouraged to use are to encourage men to approach them without being overt about it; approaching a guy is about as overt as it gets short of pouncing on them from a tree like a horny leopard, and very little of it is helpful when you’re taking the initiative. Just like many PUA techniques, women’s flirting advice is designed for a specific type of interaction; just as dating advice for picking up club girls doesn’t map to everyday life, knowing how to send approach invitations doesn’t help when you’re the one trying to do the approaching.
So the next time you’re sullenly wishing that women would do the work for you, remember that they’re having the same issues you are.
It’s Not About Who Has It Harder
Here’s something to keep in mind: dating and approaching isn’t about taking home the gold medal in the Who Has It Worse Olympics. It’s not about “women have it worse, so suck it up and make the move”, nor is it about whose “responsibility” it is for being the aggressor. It’s about understanding the reasons why more women don’t approach. Whether or not you agree that those issues are valid is ultimately irrelevant; the fact of the matter is that these are the pressures that women feel that discourage them from being more proactive on the dating scene. Yes, things are getting better as society slowly crawls towards greater social equality, but those pressures are still there.
Understanding these pressures makes it easier to relate, and when you’re not treating dating as an antagonistic process of gatekeepers and supplicants, you’ll find far more success… and in fact, this will help you learn how to create an environment where women do feel more empowered to approach as well.
(In fact… well, check back soon for more.)
New! Read Dr. NerdLove’s follow-up, How to Get Women to Approach You
Originally appeared at Paging Dr. NerdLove
Photo: Flickr/Rob Boudon
Gatekeepers and supplicants ( or even applicants?) . Throughout all of these offerings, that sounds like the best way of putting it! How clever!
“If you’re like me – and I know I am – then you’re intimately familiar with the heart palpitations, the sweaty palms, the dry mouth and the infinite variations of “What’s Going To Go Wrong” that flash through your head when you’re trying to psych yourself up to make the approach. Guess what? Women feel the exact same way.” Guess what? MEN feel the same way, too. So we’re the only ones that are obligated to do the initiating? Women have no responsibility to initiate? That’s bull. And it’s sad, because it means that only 50% of the dating world… Read more »
“TooSmartToBeHere” — Hey! Give it up! They do not want to hear that unless your wife is the one who says it! Nice try though!
I’m not beautiful and I know it. I never get approached by men and when I tell people that they say, “Oh, you should try approaching them!”. So I did, for a long time. The guy I first fell head over heels for and got the courage up to “approach” still hates me to this day. I mean, a deep seeded hate. Like, he’s disgusted someone like me (and not a gorgeous model) asked him out (we work together. I can’t avoid him). He said bad things about me to some of our coworkers. Said I am not that special;… Read more »
I would seriously love to have a woman approach me for a change since i always get Rejected, or they will make up some kind of excuse not to be interested in me. I am a good looking guy considering looking at the women that are dating very horrible looking bad boy type of men, and then they have the nerve to Reject us. Makes no sense at all.
This is not a surprise, Nerdlove is generally incompetent with his advices and generally they are never aimed at guys. My advice is to boycott him or simply ignore this person. Ok rant aside. The problem is women should be better to understand the struggles guys face. Se you say it by yourself you are afraid of being labelled as a slut or something similar. You afraid of rejection and misunderstandings connected to the approaching and to other possible consequences. Same thing goes for guys. Men are just afraid as you are of rejection labeling and bad consequences. It goes… Read more »
You find him imcompetent because he doesn’t say what you want to hear? He knows very much what the majority of women think about most issues… and that is aimed at guys that want to know more about it.
I love your point that it’s not a matter of “Who has it harder.” It’s hard on both sides.
I also love this point: When guys insist that any woman could go out and get laid if she wanted, this actually makes it harder for women to make the first move by increasing the potential fear of rejection; after all, if any woman can get laid and she can’t get a guy to go out to dinner with her, what does that say about her?
@Broad I agree and this actually explains why its difficult for guys to do the approaching. They are expected to Women expect them to do the first move. Then its how the game is played. sometime (man or woman) you may meet a bully other times a saint. Life is a gamble.
Honestly, some of my male friends and I are just bad at reading social cues sometimes. One reason men think women don’t approach is sometimes men don’t even know they’re being approached. Maybe I never see women approach me because I’m not spotting it when they do.
We can’t assume that men are somehow hypersensitive to any interest shown by any woman at any time. Sometimes we just don’t notice when it’s happening!
Great point Steve.
So women DON’T approach men? That’s odd, every time this subject comes up on internet dating forums, almost all of the women posting will say how often they approach men.
They are being disingenuous. Many women certainly want to do so. But, there is a heavy price to pay for this behavior. Many men, if not the majority, are going to view her in a negative light. They are most likely to say she is a ‘horny slut’ or a ‘bitch in heat’…I have heard these things said by men about women. Then you have the flip side where men approach women. The woman rebuffs him. The guy then goes ape shit on the woman. I was chatting with a woman in the library today. I actually asked her if… Read more »
I think you’ve bought into the myth being peddled about. There is no sizeable stigma / shame or whatever the fake buzz is concerning me asking a man out for a drink or a bite to eat. Being in a relationship, I have not had the need for several years, but when I was dating, it was a simple matter to ask a guy I liked and that I was talking to at a bar to go grab some greasy food. The only drawback is that I would be tipping my hand, dropping the fashionable coyness often used in these… Read more »
There are certainly still men out there who think women are sluts if they make the first move. They tend to be men who call a woman slut for doing just about anything. Wearing sweatpants to the grocery store? Clearly a slut. A woman voting? Totally slutty thing to do. Etc.
The difference could be in the definition of approach.
All I keep hearing is about how much power women have as a monlithic group have. What a joke! I never ever felt like I had a monopoly on “power” when it came to dating. I certainly had power over my own actions. I got to choose how I respected myself. But hat never stopped men from ignoring me, passing me up for prettier women, asking me about my friends over me, treating me badly trying to get sex from me without caring about me as a person, holding conversations with me about how much better men get as they… Read more »
@Erin, I have to agree with you on this 1000%. What you have stated happens every day to women. I love women my age (50) or older. Yes, there are some young women that like me and I have a fondness for them too. However, I am not a guy who believes in dating very young women. My girlfriend is 39 and a mother. Too many men see women as having a shelf life like food. It is really sad and pathetic. I really wish more men would think of how a woman feels when she is viewed as undesirable… Read more »
@ Jules “men are having a difficult time with women and their successes” Maybe some men are, but that’s a really big generalization. 25 or so years ago a friend of mine met an older woman at his health club. She was successful and wealthy. He had no issues driving her second car or accepting her gifts. There are a lot of guys who have no problem letting the woman pick up the tab. I’ve actually heard some women say they hide their wealth from perspective dates because like men, they want to make sure that a perspective mate isn’t… Read more »
Jules, there is nothing wrong with dating someone who is 39. I am not against age-different relationships. I hope you’re relationship stays strong and you both grow in it and contribute to it. But lets be honest, she is still younger than you. Thanks for the support and giving an honest account, as a man, about men. I’ve been on so many relationship websites and the common theme I hear is that women simply have less value overall than men. Men have the opportunity to grow and be valued for their life experience and enjoy their lives into their 60s.… Read more »
@Erin, “But lets be honest, she is still younger than you.” Yes, I can honestly tell you her attraction was not age. It was the way she walked and her pretty dark hair. After approaching her and we made a connection, the way she talked was equally attractive. She has a very gregarious personality. “So for the next 40 years we are just suppose to live a life of being less? Not desiring to feel attractive? Not having love, sex and romance in our lives past the age of 30?” No. You have to continue to move forward Erin. I… Read more »
@ Erin “One time at a work dinner I had one of my work-mates husbands ask me if I was going to get married becuase I wasn’t getting any younger. He had sons around my age so” I wonder if he was trying to hook one of his sons up. My Mom does that all the time. She’ll tell me she spoke with a woman she met. Starts giving me her background and to top it off she’ll tell me that she has her phone number if I want to call. These women all seem to be about 10 years… Read more »
John, he was not trying to hook me up with his sons. He was condescending and I’m the one that brought up his sons. He never mentioned them until I said that they were about my age. To which he pointedly reminded me that it’s different for men vs women. I know all about the “set-up”. My older brother is a handsome accomplished guy. I’ve seen lots of Mamas talk about wanting to set their daughters up with him. No one ever suggests setting me up with their sons. Secondly, why do you assume that asking men out is the… Read more »
@ Erin I heard what you’re saying. I heard what my much younger admirer is saying. What she told me broke my heart. What you’re telling me made me sad. Is that what you wanted to hear? An attorney friend of mine used to ask what’s your recourse? In other words, what are you going to do about it? A lot of guys on this thread had the same response to this article that essentially says you have concerns, but “man up”, that you did to my comment. Other commentators took them to task. It’s funny how when guys have… Read more »
Yeap. That’s exactly what I want to hear. Acknowledge what your emotional response is to it, that’s great! You don’t need to feel sorry for me but yeah, it’s sad. It’s okay if something is sad. Acknowledge that men can be hard on women as much as the reverse. That it’s not all kittens and rainbows. I went back and read some of your other posts. You express the ideas that the author is giving “excuses” for why women don’t approach men. I think he’s simply giving reasons why. “Reasons” are not “excuses”. I also couldn’t disagree with you more… Read more »
@ Erin “I also couldn’t disagree with you more that anything is being said that men’s concerns are trivial compared to women’s” “”women hate getting rejected too. makes it harder for women to make the first move by increasing the potential fear of rejection;women have to overcome generations of social programming. Even in this day and age, the sexually-aggressive woman is a figure of ridicule, … So not only do women have your garden variety approach anxiety, but also have the specter of generations of socialization and gender roles that says “men don’t like girls who are too forward” and… Read more »
“Sounds like he’s saying men and women have roughly equal problems making the first move at least if I ignore the 5 or so other things women have to deal with that men don’t. That 400 lb weight, nothing.” There will always be things women have to deal with that men don’t. And there will always be things that men have to deal with that women don’t. It’s almost like your annoyed that in an article about why women don’t approach, there aren’t more points made about how difficult approaching is for men. You appear to be more interested in… Read more »
@ Erin “like your annoyed that in an article about why women don’t approach, there aren’t more points made about how difficult approaching is for men.” On a site for men so in theory this article should reflect back on how this information is to help men either improve their lives or be better men. This is supposed to address the complaints that men have that women don’t approach. To what end? To tell men to “man up” and “shut up” because she would have it worse. We’ve already been “manning up” and doing the approaching. Now we’re not allowed… Read more »
“On a site for men so in theory this article should reflect back on how this information is to help men either improve their lives or be better men. “ How doesn’t it do just that? He took common patterns of thought he hears men voice on this subject toward women and offered a perspective that asks men to understand the complexities women deal with on this issue. When you better understand the opposite sex, that improves you as a person. It’s one reason why I come here to begin with. “This is supposed to address the complaints that men… Read more »
Dear Erin How stupid men can be if they don’t love you Erin. I have read your comments here on GMP for a long time. Your thoughs are deep, wise and you fight the good fight. I cry now when I see how you write about yourself . “””I’m the girl that men don’t care to think about. I’m the girl that men write off and don’t want to consider what my experiences have been because I’m not pretty enough for them to think about. Men care about the experiences of the pretty girls. I’m the girl that’s easy to… Read more »
You’ve always been a very sweet and kind lady Iben. Don’t cry. 🙂 I admit that those experience frustrate me and I only share them so that the guys can see it’s not all rainbows and kittens for the ladies. I’ve had good relationships too, good experiences with men. But I’ve also had a lot of trouble with men too. It’s not easy for any of us and that’s all i really want them to understand.
Erin,
If you think it’s such a joke hearing that women are such a monolithic group, I think it would fare well for these discussions if you would also stop describing and treating men as such.
I don’t treat men as a monolithic group denying their experiences of hardship and pain FlyingKal. Even with women. I probaby do treat men as a monolithic group when it comes to things like how men view women for our looks/bodies and porn though. Most of the material out there points to a very limited view of women. Frankly, if men hold other views of women, other then the pop culture one, then they need to voice it and not just voice it at times like these. GMP is the *only* place online I’ve ever seen significant detail paid to… Read more »
Hi Erin and thanks for your reply, I’ve been kind of busy the last few days and haven’t had time to really contemplate your answer. I did write a short acknowledgment the other day but it seems to have been lost. In the auto-refresh or the transition, I don’t know. But I do agree with a lot of what you say. I have also often spoken up against wrongness, and also often been ridiculed for it. As a single person without a media machine at one’s disposal, it’s difficult to get a message out there. But I do know that… Read more »
“Because women generally don’t approach men, there will be plenty of men who will assume that the woman has far more sexual interest than she actually does.”
So she has some sexual interest but, but, but. What is she looking for before her sexual interest matches his? Is it the expensive dinner she expects him to buy going to be the aphrodisiac to get her going? She’d really love to jump his bones if he were a doctor, but fast food workers don’t do it for her. Maybe his Porsche would do it, but not if he has a Kia.
“Because women generally don’t approach men, there will be plenty of men who will assume that the woman has far moresexual interest than she actually does. ”
But since the cultural narrative is that men always want sex and that men who approach women are approaching women for sex, if she says yes, isn’t she signaling the same thing anyway?
Why are there so many hateful comments on this article? Come on, people, take away what you think is helpful to you and move on. Dr. NL is trying to help. If it’s not helpful to you, close the tab and continue on your merry way. Hating on or blaming either gender, and nitpicking the article, doesn’t get you any closer to being happy.
Women do not approach men because they have been told by “experts” that once they do the approaching, they will always do the approaching. Nina Atwood used to advocate egalitarian dating until she noticed that when the woman approaches the man, he seldom reciprocates. This article never showed women and men how to trade off the initiator and responder roles in dating.
As usual this turn into another “nice guy” theory that women are so mean for not giving them a chance and go and approach them. The fact is that some of us do not approach men for the same reason some men do not approach us; we fear rejection. There is not a hidden agenda or manipulation in our part (at least in mine) I see a guy a like and I get all nervous and insecure that I just ‘freeze’. AND no, I do not have a long line of men waiting for me, and even when I am… Read more »
I’m probably going to get in trouble for this, but about 20 years ago, I was giving dating advice to an early 20s male virgin. I told him to go to this particular club, which was popular with people around 30. I told him to get there around 11:00 PM. He’ll notice three types of women. The ones on the dance floor. Don’t approach them. They already found dates. The ones at the tables, don’t approach those, they still have hope of finding dates. Then there were the ones in the game room. Go after them. They gave up the… Read more »
@ Marc, This is a terrific perspective. Some great advice too! I have never gotten annoyed at being shot down by a woman. I have been a heavy dating man. I was married for over 15 years. You can always try talking o another one. There are lots of them available! Having grown up in the Deep South, I am quite relaxed, easy going, and will talk to anyone. I have never met a stranger. I can confidently say this: women do like me. Most often they say it is my warmth (from eyes), charm, intelligence, sense of humor, and… Read more »
As a single man, I want to indicate that I have no fear of rejection, nor fear of penultimate power of women in the dating dance. I believe that a self aware, open hearted man with reasonably good self esteem and communication skills, should enjoy the prospect of meeting and initiating new contact with women. It’s really just about being relaxed, and unattached to the ultimate outcome. If a man’s focus / goal is only to have sex or to determine if the woman you are talking to is a viable sexual partner at some point in the future, then… Read more »
@ Lisa Short, “Yup. This is probably the 100% biggest reason I and women I’ve known well enough to have these kinds of discussions with, have learned to approach men with extreme caution. This is regularly the assumption that we’re faced with.” OK. I am baffled. What is it that you as a woman is in fear of? So, you’re telling me that if you’re out say at a private party and see a well dressed guy whom you are attracted, you are reluctant to approach him for fear he might think you are just some ‘horny slut.”? Seriously? The… Read more »
Yes, seriously. I’m sorry the only things you approach with extreme caution are criminals; I also approach big hairy spiders and large flying insects with extreme caution, for example. 🙂 I’m not in fear of my life, but I am highly reluctant to subject myself to an unpleasant experience that, were I extremely cautious instead of just flinging myself out there, I might be able to avoid entirely. I wouldn’t necessarily model my worldview and vocab on a cop if I were you–I assure you, it’s not what’s generally accepted. I can speak from experience, as I was married to… Read more »
@LisaShort, No, my world view has zippy to do with cops or any type of law enforcement. Obviously, there IS danger in the world. I love to Big Game hunt. There is danger and times when you must exercise extreme caution (grizzly bears in MT). What I am trying to get at is: Specifically, what is the “unpleasant experience” you and other women fear? Is it bodily harm? Is it some guy labeling you a name? Is it some guy being hostile to you in public because he was rebuffed? I know men do form harsh judgement of women about… Read more »
” Because women generally don’t approach men, there will be plenty of men who will assume that the woman has far more sexual interest than she actually does. After all, since the cultural narrative is that women don’t make the first move, she must be really into him by coming up to him. Or maybe she’s just extra slutty.”
Yup. This is probably the 100% biggest reason I and women I’ve known well enough to have these kinds of discussions with, have learned to approach men with extreme caution. This is regularly the assumption that we’re faced with.
That sounds reasonable, but you have to admit that men can’t be blamed for making that wrong assumption. The key is to change the cultural narrative, not chastise men within the existing one.
Yes, men are to blame if they think we are “slutty” and that we have so much more sexual interest that they will find it okay to just not respect our boundaries. That is what many men do when they believe they already “won” us.
Men are adults. If they learned in their lives that women are “sluts” for whatever reason and that it is okay to try to force anything, that was indeed a very bad, toxic education, but now they are adults and responsible for heir own thoughts and actions and should stop with this.
And if you fuck up your approach as a male, you’re a creep.
Oh wait, except we’re still expected to keep making moves.
that’s not what a creep is. despite the hurt little boys crying foul a “creep” is not just a guy a lady is not into.
Did I say it was? Only pointed out that you can labelled it at the virtual drop of a hat, depending on the mindset of the woman you are approaching – and not every woman is going to be rational or reasonable, as with any person.
The difference is, one gender’s excuses are treated as acceptable reasons not to approach, whereas an identical excuse coming from another gender isn’t.
Don’t worry, a woman thinking you are a creep usually won’t lead her to feel like she has the right to sexually assault you only because you are being too easy ans “asking for it”.
And I don’r expects any guy to keep making moves. Do what you want.
No, it could only possibly lead to men in the vicinity assaulting you.
Big difference.
@ LisaShort
OK, I’m confused. If she doesn’t have a romantic interest in him, why is she approaching him? If she’s not interested in him sexually, what is she looking for, a free dinner?
I imagine she means that she isn’t offering up sex immediately- that’s not why she’s approaching. She’s approaching because she finds the man attractive and wants to see if they’re compatible, have chemistry, etc., but that doesn’t mean she’s 100% going to sleep with him. I imagine the same is true of a lot of men who approach women. If they were to discover that, say, the woman had a really bad drug problem, seemed mentally unstable, or simply was boring, they may decide not to pursue anything. However, Lisa seems to be saying that, because women are less commonly… Read more »
“knowing how to send approach invitations doesn’t help when you’re the one trying to do the approaching.” Yet, men have the added problem of being labelled creepy if they use “approach invitations” to try to gauge a woman’s interest prior to approaching and she’s not interested. So where does that leave us? IMO and what has worked for me is that men need a “plan B” whether it’s a club with a game room, a movie theater in close proximity, showing a film you want to see, etc. When guys go out with the sole intention of trying to get… Read more »
I agree. People should really focus more on empowering themselves which I think a side effect of that would be not worrying so much about what other people think. I think that if a man approaches a woman and is met with anything other than friendliness that is a reflection of her not you. The same goes for a woman approaching a man. If you are treated with anything other than decency and respect that is a reflection of the individual, not the gender. Be strong in who you are and know that you deserve something amazing. Rejection is not… Read more »
There’s a major drive in society to put “women on a pedestal” and that causes a lot of rejection pain. Care less about who you’re trying to date, seriously. Plenty of women exist, so don’t put so much care into each woman as if her rejection will end your world. A lot of guys grew up on romance movies where women were treated like queens and the guys were peasants, hell even action movies have men sacrificing themselves for her quite often. Putting her on a pedestal doesn’t create any sense of equality and the bad women will use that… Read more »
I think if women are going to hold mindsets like Schrodinger’s Rapist – if they really are that scared of rapists behind every smile – then they should be the ones approaching.
To expect men to still approach while holding that mindset over them is nothing short of psychotic.
That’s the problem with expectations: you are almost always disappointed when the reality doesn’t live up to what you wanted. A truly secure man doesn’t worry about who approaches who. If she says no, don’t waste time wondering why and agonizing over it. Move on and don’t look back.
@Wes Car,
” Move on and don’t look back.”
Yup!!!! There are lots of other smart, kind, loving, and compassionate women out here.
It is interesting to see the comments you are getting. I thin you were rather balanced in your approach, but I think that is the point you are making. Men, in our society as a whole, dominate everything. We determine what beauty is (if you don’t think so either do formal academic study, or watch any movie made in the last 15 years). The sexual situation, the female leads, all appeal to “men’s” (this is in quotes, because it’s not all men’s) sensibilities and desires. We socialize women to accommodate our interests, that from sex to dinner it’s really about… Read more »
Balanced approach? Balanced between what and what exactly? One side of the scales is the notion that women suffer, men are causing it, men better shut up and not complain because women have it worse, men must take responsibility (you emphasized that several times yourself), etc. etc. The other side of the scales is … not here. There is no other side represented in the article. If it were, it would be to treat men (in particular male readers) with a bit of compassion, to acknowledge that toxic society (the patriarchy, if you like) puts them in a difficult situation,… Read more »
@ Jonathan Brown, “Reality is: Men need to own their message, take responsibility for how the conversation goes, and be accountable to the effects of that message. Usually, guys are bent out of shape because we believe we “deserve” her affections. The negative response is often tied to a sense of superiority, and not the sense of powerlessness that so many project. They believe she “owes” it to him because he walked over, and never once asks if he is the man SHE is looking for.” Reality is: Most women view most strange men as “creepy.” So, if a man… Read more »
In all honesty, you are talking yourself down man. I used to have a similar mindset to yours, especially with the porn and the escort thing, after all, we don’t hear about women paying men for sex too often now, do we (I can assure you, a man who has got his shit going will not need to pay for sex, prostitution is not a valid indicator of anything to do with sexual energies). I’ve explored a wide, highly diverse range of porn, and I’ve found that there is enough material to cater to just about any fetish out there.… Read more »
I’ve never, ever, ever heard one of my fat male friends hear of how often they get laid. Yet I’ve heard from PLENTY of fat female friends that they have had lots of sex, had more than one partner, etc. Casual sex is far easier for women to get, I am surprised people still doubt this. The difference might be that men want casual sex more than women do though.
Archy, when I said average, I was not referring to fat, or at least not fat alone. I think there is a difference between fat males and females, but of course, this is only based on my personal observations. It’s fairly common to hear motivational stuff that encourage plus sized women to embrace their body and such, and the whole Real Men Love Curves thing. I am not aware of one aimed at fat guys though (I’d be more than happy to learn of any). From what I’ve seen of fat guys I know, they do not have confidence in… Read more »
@ Chris, “Go ask one of your average female friends how easy they have it, I’d be willing to bet that you’d be surprised at what they say.” Yes, but most of these women are creating their own drama. They don’t believe in “settling.” Therefore they continue to hold out for Mr. Don’t Exist. in the meanwhile, they go about have sex with men who they are sexually attracted (about 20%-25% of men). Some of these men are unemployed, dangerous thugs, womanizers with harems,……But, women don’t seem to mind. They just want the good sex these men provide. Many women… Read more »
Jules, I get where you are coming from, I truly do. I used to indulge in this mentality, but I have come to realize, the problem with this is that it heavily relies on generalizations. Firstly, “most of these women” is not a representation of society as a whole. It really depends on the kind of social setting you hang out in. Secondly, yes, I have indeed come across the Drama Queen, but just curious, why don’t you simply avoid such women? Unless of course, you are generalizing that most (or all) women are like this, which is simply not… Read more »
@Anonomyous, One thing that irks me people do not understand the meaning of the word “generalization.” Statistically, the typical male in America has an average height of 5′ 9″. So, what this says is that if this data is normal about the mean, then 80% of men will be very very close to 5′ 9″. THIS IS A GENERALIZATION!!! Does it mean all mean are 5′ 9″? NO!!!!!!! But MOST men will be close to 5′ 9″. So we have to make generalized depictions of reality. I really do not understand what is so difficult for people to get! I… Read more »
Good point. To make any headway coming to any kind of understanding about anything requires us to make generalizations. If I never, ever generalize about a group of people, then in effect that group of people does not exist. If we cannot make *useful* generalizations about men, for example, then that means there’s no such thing as “men.” Even if I wanted to understand something about a distinct individual person, I’d STILL have to make generalizations even about that one person, because he or she is different from one day to the next. The bad thing is to put too… Read more »
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/generalization?q=generalization A general statement or concept obtained by inference from specific cases http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/generalization?s=t a proposition asserting something to be true either of all members of a certain class or of an indefinite part of that class. Jules, your example about height and generalization is good, but are people of normal distribution? The Meyers-Briggs personality test, based on the work of Carl Jung is pretty accurate, but even within the 16 different groups, there are large variations in an individual’s preference for the 8 indicators. Yes, the character descriptions that accompany the test are based on “individualized” generalizations, but individual preferences… Read more »
Thank you for writing this. I am glad you took the time to break down and clarify the various emotions and social conditioning that factors into this. I find that this topic often devolves into a type of “Gender War” where people tend to lose themselves in blaming which gender has it worse or which gender should be responsible for a particular outcome, with a seeming assumption that all humans of a particular gender behave exactly the same way inescapably. So thank you for pointing out that this is not the case and that these characteristics are human characteristics filtered… Read more »
@ Liana, “Would you be interested in providing some practical steps we can take to create that environment, so that everyone (men, women or other) can feel safer in approaching whoever they like for mutually pleasurable experiences?” For Women: Stop viewing men as ‘creeps” and potential rapists. Stop think that only a FEW men are attractive. All others are “creeps.” Stop viewing men as disposable. For Men: Stop objectifying women. Truly love and appreciate women. Show respect to women. “so that everyone (men, women or other) can feel safer in approaching whoever they like for mutually pleasurable experiences?” Please explain… Read more »
Every bloke should this article! It is some funny shit from someone that clearly doesn’t know the difference between their head & their arse. If you want to feel sorry for Miley for being called a slut even though she makes $2 hookers look like classy women, well that is your right. But don’t give me this BULLSHIT that it is because she is (As you call it) an active sexual performer, there are plenty of strong women that are comfortable with their sexuality & don’t mind flaunting it without. The difference is that they do it without behaving like… Read more »
Why won’t you have sex with me you slut! This is men… complaining about not getting laid… by women… that they are calling sluts… for having sex with others (but not them) and for dressing in a way that turns them on without daring to “finish what they started” when it was men’s testosterone STARTING it, not women’s dress. Men treat women the same way a 5 year old treats another 5 year old that got more candy than he did. He’s having a temper tantrum because he didn’t get what he wanted and attacks the person who has more… Read more »
Do you think you could stop generalising for a moment?
Not every male writer objecting to this article is calling women sluts or blaming testosterone.
I wonder if it has crossed your mind that the use of the word slut is very much about controlling a women’s sexual power. Same with slut bashing and all that other sexist crap. Women are the sexual gatekeepers…. that is a lot of power. Some people might even resent that power or try and dominate it don’t you think? That power and privlage might not feel all that useful but don’t pretend women don’t have it
a vagina is not a gate.
Its also not s car! What do we win?if your going to be snarky at lest add something.
Brett, the name calling specifically directed to women is purely hateful and misogonistic. Say what you may about Miley, Pink or Christina, they have made more money then you ever will. I love when us average people call people who are famous “stupid”. They aren’t famous and rich because they are “stupid”. You know what is even more terrible then your personal hate for women? If you instead had used targeted names against African Americans or Homosexuals, it never would have been allowed. We use the phrase “the n-word” but we are careful about not actually using it out of… Read more »
@ Erin,
I too thought his remarks were over the top.
Thanks Jules.
This article is fantastic! It really does point out the problems both genders face (contrary to the two comments that are clearly written by whiny misogynists) and as a woman who is assertive I find that just being friendly to a guy gives them the wrong idea. I’ve literally just talked to some guys who looked awkward at a club just to be friendly and one of them tried to kiss me and go home with my friend and I when I caught a cab! Anonguy you use porn and escorts to support your theory that women hold the sexual… Read more »
And you clearly come across as a hateful misandrist. Both you and the author deny what’s the reality for most men (like you and the author claim denial of the reality for a few woman). If you worry (rightly) about objectification, please, read the author’s other articles, you’ll (hopefully) notice how he goes on about men needing to know and make clear instantly their sexual interest (nope, romantic interest is out of the question) for not to be called a liar, what else is that going to do than objectify ? Funny how you still state that it’s a guys… Read more »
this article is not about men, check out the title
It is. It is about how men are the problem that make it difficult for women to approach.
And in any case the article is for men.
I think your reading of the material is telling us more about yourself than you know. Cheer up, little cowboy
“I have been rejected by men I’ve been attracted to, if I hold the sexual power by default please explain how this has happened?”
Well I believe in terms of power he was probably referring to that you’ll have far more success in finding the average partner than a male of similar looks n status as yourself. It doesn’t mean you’ll always win.
how do you define “success”? most relationships consist of two individuals, how is one “more successful” than the other in finding a partner?
Success as in terms of finding a partner, not having one. Higher percentage of women need to ask less men in order to be successful.
@Olivia, “I have been rejected by men I’ve been attracted to, if I hold the sexual power by default please explain how this has happened?” He had better options Olivia. Pretty simple. I am willing to bet he was one of these guys who probably had other women desiring him as well. Why? Women simply find only a FEW men attractive. What studies have shown is most women seem to find the SAME 20%-25% of men attractive. Why you can even confirm this by looking at the results of the Match.com study about 3-4 years ago. In this PC world,… Read more »
women find all sorts of men attractive. even you. even me. not every woman, but you don’t need very many.
it doesn’t matter what your interpretation of a match.com article confirms for you. women are not an aggregate ego mass.
Anonguy you use porn and escorts to support your theory that women hold the sexual power? Hmm ok then. This idea that women have the power is socially constructed and I completely agree with the sentence “One of the insidious issues of the idea that women are somehow in charge of dating and have it so much easier than men do is that it invalidates and erases every woman who’s ever been rejected by somebody she’s attracted to.” I have been rejected by men I’ve been attracted to, if I hold the sexual power by default please explain how this… Read more »
what “power” do you mean? the power to make someone cry? we can all find someone who will cry when we hurt them.
@ Olivia
“I find that just being friendly to a guy gives them the wrong idea.”
Poor you, try being a man just looking in the direction of a woman. The ideas that gives them.
Fantastic article, thanks for bringing some realism to the topic of dating.