After Conan O’Brien tweeted a joke about Team USA weightlifter Holley Mangold, many were outraged at the insult against the athlete’s weight. Danny digs a little bit deeper.
Sometimes comedy can feel like a minefield. It seems like no matter what a comedian says there’s a high chance that they are going to tap onto some topic or subject that will rub some people the wrong way.
A few days ago comedian Conan O’Brien made a prediction on the performance of weightlifter Holley Mangold at the 2012 Olympics, in London. The tweet goes like this:
I predict 350 lb. weight lifter Holley Mangold will bring home the gold and 4 guys against their will.
This tweet presents us with two things. There is a matter of making fun of Holley’s size and making light of the idea of raping men. In fact, in an email exchange Noah Brand gave a rather nice breakdown of what’s happening in the joke:
“She is fat and therefore no man would ever consent to sex with her. However, she is also strong, therefore their consent becomes irrelevant!”
Holley is doing something with her female body that has traditionally been frowned up for women. Her choice to pursue weightlifting has supposedly made her unattractive to men but she can remedy that by using her superior strength to make guys have sex with her whether they want to or not. This makes her out to be some terrible woman that just can’t get a man unless she becomes a rapist. Holley is going against the flow and doing something that women “aren’t supposed to do”. What is funny about that?
Who said a woman has to build her life around the ability to attract men? Maybe she’s doing this for herself, which should be all that matters?
Did this joke bother you? Were you able to laugh at it and keep going? Additionally I wonder about a few other things as well.
Is this the fate of comedy? An art bound to leave some frowning as others are smiling?
What could be done to remedy this?
Is it possible that various types of social justice could bring about the end of making jokes out of topics that rub people the wrong way?
Or perhaps there is nothing that needs to be “fixed”?
AP Photo/Victoria Will
“She is fat and therefore no man would ever consent to sex with her. However, she is also strong, therefore their consent becomes irrelevant!”
Thank you for repeating the joke with humor removed.
Anytime. Thanks for reading.
So this is what it has come to…… a guy makes a FUNNY joke and people want an apology? When did this pussy attitude come to this country? George Carlin and Richard Pryor would NEVER apologize to these overly sensitive pussies, and I hope no one else does. A joke is a joke, it’s meant to poke fun at, that’s it. You can joke about anything you want and if you think other wise, you’re part of the problem. Not one argument I read that someone put up that thought other made any sense. I am honestly embarrassed that we… Read more »
How in the hell did this get turned into a rape joke? Being brought home “Against one’s will” is not rape and to conclude that the sole outcome of being taking by force to one’s home only means rape is complete crap.
It has to do with the fact that she could easily overpower most men and, in no way, does it mention, imply or even hint that she would rape them.
Jesus, people…get an effing grip.
ITS A JOKE! If you don’t like it, then you should have shut the door to your cave. The joke was not about you. And even if it was do you really think it would matter? If your okay with who you are as a person it shouldn’t matter what anyone says about you. Especially if it’s a joke. Not every joke made is going to be found funny by every person on earth. We all have our own taste. So to be insulted on behalf of someone is a waste of time, mostly yours. You may find something funny… Read more »
What disgusts me is not the the supremely offensive content of Conan’s ‘joke,’ but the fact that it seems that people still don’t realize that his success is built upon a foundation of literally being a talking a$$hole. Look at all the attention he’s getting over this! It’s important to speak up about injustices, but *please* remember: All press is good press when it comes to promoting a train wreck. He’s probably upped his ratings over this. Reminder: Ratings do not mean quality but the number of people watching. The money in network television is not the content of the… Read more »
OK, I’ve tried REALLY hard to like Conan. Something about his “geeky-guy/fish out of water/hey! I can’t believe I actually got this gig!” shtick was kind of endearing at first. But he just keeps stepping in it. Rape jokes/fat comments/PC rhetoric aside, the guy’s just a putz.
Conan, I give up, buddy. You’re a lost cause.
Apologize. Mean it. Move on.
Like maybe, off the airwaves altogether…
This seems to be a thing with the Olympics this year, or maybe I’m just noticing it more… but it’s the constant critiquing of female athletes’ bodies. It’s driving me a little crazy, actually. You don’t hear anything about the male athletes’ bodies. The women are either sexy or too masculine or not feminine enough or fat or not pretty or their hair is too messy…. please! [the rape joke aside, which has its own problems] I’m sick of everyone deciding that these women are somehow less than amazing athletes because they’re either too hot or not good looking enough… Read more »
I don’t understand how everyone came to be so dead sure that the joke was about sex at all let alone rape. Call me naive but the picture I got was of this KingKong-like giant woman saying “me like you” kidnaping men she thought were attractive. KingKong didn’t rape that lady! He kept her like a pet. The joke seemed more like an exaggeration meant to poke fun at her actual size. It’s a mean joke only if Ms. Mangold is unhappy about her appearance (which I seriously doubt given the fact that she’s an Olympian who size and success… Read more »
One thing that’s worth pointing out is that weighlifting is a marginal sport, and female participation is doubly marginal. If you took a poll, it’s probably considered freakish. Nobody is getting rich off it – if nobody got rich off of pro football, NCAA football would disappear into obscurity. The last weightlifter who casual viewers remembers is Yuri Alexeyev. So if you’re doing it for love of the sport, country, &cetera, people should just stfu. Sarah Robles, iirc, has been a regular at food banks because she doesn’t come from a family that can deal with the huge soccer mom-style… Read more »
Sorry folks, but I think a part of the joke is a bit of a compliment. The implication is: “Hey, this woman’s so damn strong, that no matter what other plans men might have had that evening, they’re coming back with her whether they like it or not.”
I would buy that if it went, “with a gold medal around her neck and 4 men on her shoulders”, but the “against their will part” pretty much makes it an insult to her attractiveness. Like if someone said, “That guy is so charming and rich I bet he could get any prostitute he wants,” it wouldn’t be a complement to his charm and wealth.
If that’s the case then a simple, “She’s so strong she’ll have no problem picking up guys.” would have sufficed. See what I did there?
Danny: If that’s the case then a simple, “She’s so strong she’ll have no problem picking up guys.” would have sufficed.”
Or putting them up for the night for that matter.
RIM-SHOT
Yep. And I find it hard to believe that Conan O’Brien could not have come up with a more appropriate way to say that. O’Brien has been active in the comedy industry since the late 80s when he was writing for SNL. That would remove the implication that guys are being taken against their will and (as far as I can tell) would also remove the implication that she is so unattractive that no guys would go out with her. All the while still making a nod to her strength. But hey maybe Hollley would still not like it even… Read more »
Initially when I read this, I didn’t interpret it as an attack on her weight. She is a titan of a woman, damned impressive, if you ask me. It came across to me as a hamfisted, somewhat low-brow remark of astonishment above all else, not that she was fat and requires rape in order to have a sexual relationship. Holley Mangold is a world class athlete, and Conan O’Brien’s tweets are the very least of her concerns. Check out her interview with Julie Faudy on ESPN to get a good example of exactly how many craps she does not give… Read more »
I don’t think rape jokes are verboten across the board. Louis CK has a hilarious bit — and if you don’t think it’s funny, you don’t have a human soul — about how he’d go back in time not to kill Hitler, but “only” to rape him, so his [Hitler’s] self esteem would subsequently be too low to invade Poland. And Sarah Silverman has a great rape bit — “I was raped by a doctor, which is a bittersweet experience for a Jewish girl” — which combined the daily double of rape and anti-semetism. AND IT, TOO, IS INDISPUTABLY FUNNY.… Read more »
Thanks for this. I think once people assume “attack” the original context/premise of “joke” is long gone. The punchline in Conan’s tweet is Holley carrying the four guys over her shoulder. I’m just imagining two dudes on each shoulder with a gold medal around her neck and a smile on her face. But once I’m told it’s an attack on Holley, I suddenly assume an evil girl who’s using her strength to intimidate. But I suppose that if you don’t assume the context of “joke” from Conan from the start, you will assume something quite different. And besides, her last… Read more »
You guys might like this GMP article I did a while back about Louis CK and what makes a joke funny. Part of it is that CK is SO FUNNY that almost everything he says is okay. But that’s because every big of CK’s jokes are well-crafted and well-honed.
https://goodmenproject.com/good-feed-blog/louis-ck-and-the-brilliantly-crafted-feminism-vs-comedy-joke/
Yeah, I read that one. I thought it was really good.
I think we should get Holley to lift Conan up in the air on national TV and see how he wants to come back to the ground…
And then shake hands later and yuck it up later….
(sort of like an Andy Koufman mock wrestling scenario)
Would he also apologize for the rape part of the joke?
Nobody makes jokes about NFL offensive linemen, who have the footwork of a dancer and have to act as human shields against freakishly quick and strong defensive players and make split-second ad hoc changes to their blocks – all the while weighing 350 or so. That doesn’t mean we can’t make jokes about them – sumo wrestlers seem like easier targets, with their hairdos and loincloths. Plus they’re Japanes. Ha, ha. But big, athletic women are “fairer” game? Hmm. R. Crumb made a career out of that sort of thing, but his “redemption” (to use that word Olympics announcers are… Read more »
People don’t make fun of gigantic men in purple spandex pants? (football) And wrestling’s even worse,,, a spandex onesie, and you can’t tell me the rear mount position doesn’t look a little funny. And then there’s the “good game” butt slaps, the locker room communal showers, etc. Basically everything in hypermasculine sports is just one huge running gay joke. Now, I tend to think if someone’s gonna try for a fat joke or a rape joke, that’s okay. But it had better be good. Fat jokes are generally tasteless, and rape is a serious issue so if you want to… Read more »
Conan is pretty brave, Holley could tear him a new one if she wanted to.
Oh my lord. get over it people, it was joke. She’s fat. so what. Im fat, I hear jokes about me all the time. They’re jokes. No different than “skinny jokes” or “little” jokes. All this PC policing crap is getting out of hand in this country. Wake up to reality people, there are 6 billin people on this planet all different, tall, short, fat, skinny, beautiful, fugly, rich, poor, and everything in between, and guess what? Theyve all been and are sources for jokes, and if you sit here and tell me that you have never or do not… Read more »
It’s interesting to hear others take on a comment. When you live on the fringe- any extreme is seen as so queer. I’d like to think that Holley set a goal for herself , and went for it. With that, she is a young lady, one minute she’ll think that she is the shit and at other times, ugly. All women have these highs and lows. And she chose this body, she worked hard for it. She be sexy as hell , firm young skin, strong, curved, pretty blonde hair. Ceribrally, I’d rather dive into a lush proud lover who… Read more »
This ‘joke’ is personal. It’s directed at a specific person for a specific reason. Not to say that ‘fat’ jokes are ok at all. However that’s what comedians do, they make fun of people in a generic fashion, or at least they used to. I remember when stand-ups used to tell stories about themselves, friends and family members that were largely made up, called material. It seems as though this art form is changing into insulting personal remarks.
Also, my husband read the ‘joke’ and he (no stranger to tasteless, offensive jokes.. don’t ask), said it wasn’t funny.
Maybe it’s me, but Holley doesn’t look “fat”- she looks big, but “fat” has connotations like, “needing to be trimmed” or “sloppy” and Holley does not seem either.
When I read the tweet posted above- at first took it to mean that them men did not want to come to America- not that abducting four people is better then raping four people. I guess it stems from me seeing a proud athlete and not a misfit.
Perhaps it would be more fitting to have called it a size joke then?
Either way the comment is a nod to her size and how it means the only way she could have sex is to take someone against their will.
Holley is an awesome athlete and even though I doubt she will medal this year (the threshold is a bit above her total… Sarah Robles seems more likely to medal for the USA in her weight class, to me, due to her much greater experience). Both men and women in the 105+ kg class (“super-heavyweight”) are often treated as if they are not “real” athletes because their bodies are larger and their percentage of body-fat somewhat higher. In weightlifting at least, though, it has to do with height and what the body can do with certain weight compositions at certain… Read more »
There is a moment in her NPR coverage- http://www.npr.org/2012/07/05/156292980/at-last-superheavyweight-finds-her-olympic-niche – where she frets over her makeup regimen and doesn’t want to be too cheap looking.
Got me right where I live- as a father of a daughter who wears a size 4.
HS football starter & a girl all in one….
Jesus weeps, I pray she medals and appears on Conan in a dress she feels flatters her.
Maybe the guys lifting weights on TV are wearing blush- but then the Russians probably have coaches for this as well.
Drew.
Amazing comment.
amen, drew, amen.
However, it’s proof positive that male rape victims are rarely taken seriously.
I think people are overthinking this. It is a joke. If you do not find it funny, ignore it and move on. Every comment or joke people make is not some thinly veiled attack on someone.
Easier said than done to many in the social justice game. While I doubt this joke, and most jokes, are attacks on individuals, they can contribute to attacks on individuals. How? The fact is, while the majority of people can recognize a joke as just something about society to laugh at, there are a select few (usually those already with risk factors for committing violence) that will take a rape/racist/homophobic joke as reinforcement to sexist/racist/homophobic worldview. So when we joke about rape, 99% of people will laugh or ignore it and move on, but some will see it as societal… Read more »
Do you have any evidence to support that? To my knowledge, people who want commit a crime do not look for societal permission to do it, let alone look to jokes for said permission.
So when we joke about rape, 99% of people will laugh or ignore it and move on, but some will see it as societal permission to rape, because rape can’t be so serious if so many people are joking about it. There is so much wrong with that argument it’s hard to pick where to focus. The pulled-out-of-thin-air statistic looks juicy, but that’s too easy. The link between a joke and “permission to rape” is also tempting, since it rest on the premise that humor always condones and approves of the subject matter being laughed at, when the opposite is… Read more »
This isn’t a thinly-veiled attack at all. I’d say it’s a very blatant attack. The whole point of the joke is that he’s insulting her appearance. He mentions her weight, so clearly her weight is supposed to be a factor in her lack of sexual appeal. Fat jokes are generally shitty and deserve some pushback. Fat jokes about incredibly accomplished athletes who are representing their country at an international level is just low and mean. It’s effectively saying “It doesn’t matter how successful you are in your chosen sport, you’re a woman, therefore your appearance is up for critique, therefore… Read more »
Good point on the reversal. Although to tweak it a bit I would imagine said joke if swapped would be about a male athlete in some event that brings his machoness into question that won the gold but was still too weak to take any women home against their will or something.
If the genders were reversed, and this was a joke about a male weightlifter taking home four women against their will, there’d be uproar. This effectively denies the experiences of male victims of rape, which is a destructive thing to do in context of a society which largely denies the fact that men can be raped at all. I disagree, for two reasons. First, the joke wouldn’t be a joke anymore with genders reversed, because the basis for this joke wasn’t rape, it was simultaneously ridiculing a woman for being non-feminine and for being masculine (because she’s big and strong),… Read more »
Exactly. Thank you.
Points taken! I totally agree that if the genders were reversed it would not be a joke, but it would be a supremely rape-y comment. However, I didn’t the tweet is mocking male rape victims nor do I think anyone laughed at it for that reason. I said it denies the experience of male rape victims. Rape is used as a device in this joke but no one bats an eyelid at it or indeed even sees it as a rape joke, which to me illustrates exactly how invisible male rape is in the minds of the general public.
I am with Marianne. There really is an element to this joke that denies the reality that men can be raped, or even just forcefully made to do anything.
Okay, sorry for paraphrasing incorrectly, but I still disagree that Conan’s joke denies the experience of male rape victims, or that there’s an element to it that denies the reality that men can be raped or forcefully made to do anything. To the extent there’s anything rape-y about it, it was that men *can* be forced against their will to do something. If you want to read rape into it, the joke is literally saying men can be raped (as long as the rapist is a hyper-masculine woman, har har.) The punch isn’t about men getting raped, though, it’s about… Read more »
Marcus: You almost got it with this sentence:
I’ll give you a further hint; it’s between the parentheses.
You don’t think this sentence in any way downplay or even denies the reality that men can be raped not only by hyper-masculine women, but also by conventionally attractive women?
Correct. I don’t think a mean tweet by Conan O’Brien that makes fun of a non-feminine female weightlifter makes any statement about rape or male rape unless you’re determined to make rape sausage out of everything, and if you are, that only shows that you have a knack for making rape sausage, not that Conan’s joke was rape denialism. Watch, I can make rape sausage out of this, too… You choose to look at the “as long as the rapist is hyper-masculine” aspect of the joke as male rape denialism because it suggests conventionally attractive women can’t (or don’t) rape.… Read more »
Jacob, perhaps we do overthink some topics sometimes. And perhaps it’s good to be more thoughtful of the way we talk about others. Even in jokes. I’m not sure comments should get a free pass just because the intent was suppose to be laughter. One could argue that if you have an issue with people taking an issue on a certain subject, that you could also ignore it and move on to topics that you actually find important. Instead of telling others what should or shouldn’t concern them. Although, I don’t think either way would really accomplish much.
So… My guess is that this will get a lot less outrage than Tosh’s joke…
Conan should man up and give a public apology. Conan is the only one that can remedy it. It was his bad.