As SPSMM’s editor for contributions to the Good Men Project Magazine, I’d like to respond to some points made by Mr. Paul Elam (“Men and Violence: Blaming the Blameless“) in response to an article written by Chris Kilmartin, Ph.D., (“Violence Is a Men’s Issue“). Elam notes that Kilmartin did not explicitly reference any research in his article. It’s GMPM policy, obviously, to fact-check, but not require citations in the text of the article. And of course, we hope that GMPM readers interested in the topic would follow links back to the author’s homepage. Readers can also visit the free bibliographic service at Google Scholar, or view books listed by their favorite bookseller. Searches for “violence masculinity” at Google Scholar indicate nearly 87,000 references and at Amazon.com indicate nearly 500 titles, including Kilmartin’s three books.
Elam wants you to think about the issue in terms of men vs. women: who’s more likely to start violence, who’s more likely to engage in violence, and who’s more likely to get hurt. Those are important issues, but they aren’t the focus of Kilmartin’s article. Kilmartin argued that we need to stop the violence—one way to do that is for men to hold each other accountable. When men turn their ability for violence—which is supposed to be used to protect their country and loved ones—onto their partners or children, that’s masculinity gone bad. When men hurt their partners—the people we men are expected to protect—it looks bad for all men. And men are much more likely to cause damage that requires medical treatment, a point that Kilmartin and Elam agree on.
The idea that a small percentage of men can make all men look bad isn’t far fetched. The U.S. military understands this; the events of a small number of soldiers at My Lai and Abu Ghraib left the entire military with a proverbial black eye. In response, the military increased awareness, changed training, and prosecuted those whose misdeeds directly caused the problem. Kilmartin suggests that men do the same; we should make all men more aware and hold accountable those men who are violent and therefore make us all look bad.
Elam draws an interesting parallel with problems in the African American community. What folks in those communities realized was that they needed to take care of their own. Black communities throughout the U.S. have found a myriad of ways to try to prevent their young men from becoming violent and thus being killed or incarcerated (admittedly, some programs have been more effective than others). Kilmartin is arguing for the same: that we, as men, find ways to help other men refrain from violence. This seems to be especially problematic for Elam, who believes that men should “abandon any notion of commitment to women or vulnerability to them,” and who is “anti-marriage and anti-commitment to the core.” Like Kilmartin, I think that some of our society’s expectations of men contribute to the problem. And like Kilmartin, I think that we, as men, can and should help other men.
—Andrew Smiler, Ph.D.
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Andrew P. Smiler, Ph.D., is a visiting professor of psychology at Wake Forest University and the president-elect of SPSMM. More information is available on his website.
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This is a response to “Men and Violence: Blaming the Blameless,” which was a response to “Violence Is a Men’s Issue.” Paul Elam responds again, here.
There’s another dimension to violence awareness that’s a men’s issue: Toxic women. There are many good women in the world, but there are also the toxic women. The manipulators, instigators, “domestic terrorists”. We often make excuses for women when they do horrible things. When women commit violent acts, we as men, and women too!, don’t hold women up to the same standards as we do men. For example, if women bludgeon a man to death with a sledge hammer our response is to say, “let’s pray for her”? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xE8BUHKRr-E&feature=player_embedded We can pray for her, but only when we pray for… Read more »
Andrew. I would be interested in knowing when we can expect SPSMM’s next article to GMPM. Kilmartin has clearly chosen to take his articles to locations where he does not need to fear his “facts” being challenged (due to a lack of comments section http://www.nomas.org/node/90 ), but I remain curious as to how you have/will respond to the suggestions made for you.
In New South Wales in 2008 the ratio of women convicted of serious domestic violence assaults in NSW Courts is 1 woman for every 1.8 men. Thirty years ago this was 1 woman for every 8 men. Add to that the ABS figure that one quarter of violence against woman comes form other woman. Indeed the fastest growing source of violence against woman in Australia is….other woman. The reality of modern day Australia makes a nonsense of the notion that IPV is a male issue. How can one eliminate violence against woman by ending male violence alone – it would… Read more »
i am awaiting some answers as to why when i needed help and asked for it-no one knew what to do-they knew i was abused and mentally asphyxiated but had absolutely no idea what to tell me or where to go. my doctor finally gave me some anti-anxiety meds but untill this day-i still have panic attacks from the abuse suffered at the hands of a female when i was going through the father extortion process and claimed physical,mental,emotional and financial abuse-the misandry machine turned it all around on me and made me feel like it was all my fault.… Read more »
@gwallan & outdoors,
I obviously don’t have any answers for you or, at least, nothing that’d be particularly helpful. Would that I had the power to change your experiences or to make sure that no one else goes through what you’ve experienced.
Andrew
I don’t think these men are asking for answers as much as they are asking for acknowledgement. Will you pledge that from this time forward, in SPSMM’s articles, programs, research, conferences and other undertakings that men will be equally represented as victims of domestic violence? Will you pledge to do the same in your representations of females as abusers? If not, then you are a part of the problem of perpetuating the myth that men are the only ones doing the abusing. The question that keeps coming up in my mind is how long have you known about male victims… Read more »
Hi Nancy, I am in no position to make any promises or guarantees about the behavior of SPSMM’s members. They’re adults, they each have their own areas of expertise, and they have free will. As long as I’m SPSMM’s editor & liaison to GMPM, I can influence what appears here, but that’s the extent of my power. I will also point out that there are times when it may be particularly relevant to focus on abusers or victims of only one sex. My experience as therapist made it clear to me that while male & female victims of childhood sexual… Read more »
Wow. You knew about male victims of domestic violence 20 year ago and still let that article through? All I can say is wow! I hope you have listened to the feedback from the posters here and will start framing DV as a human issue rather than a men’s issue.
Ok, so here’s my question. I’ve responded to many comments and that’s been entirely on Paul’s article, but I haven’t asked a question. Here goes: In the US, most people see IPV/domestic violence as a women’s issue. As Gwallan has stated, male victims are largely ignored. And in many cases, when males acknowledge that they’ve been victimized, they encounter shame and ridicule for not being able to defend themselves, something men are “supposed to be able to do.” Read the opening section of Kilmartin’s piece where he hears undergraduate men making fun of things like the white ribbon campaign; they… Read more »
Perhaps focusing on helping the male victims would be a good start.
“Read the opening section of Kilmartin’s piece where he hears undergraduate men making fun of things like the white ribbon campaign; they simply don’t see it as relevant. “ The white ribbon campaign, a campign to stop violence against women, evolved from the Lepine massacre at polytechnique in Montreal. Feminists openly stated at the time, that lepine’s actions were representative of all men’s hatred of women… It was founded in lies, as all men do NOT share Lepine’s hated of “feminism” (not women). In addition, there have been many reports of white ribbon campaign events becoming hostile towards men who… Read more »
Barbara Kay
Christina Hoff Sommers
Cathy Young
Katherine Young
Kathleen Parker
Diana Furchtgott-Roth
Daphne Patai
There are others.
Ooops. I forgot Erin Pizzey — one of the greatest.
Thanks Thomas,
I assume that list is of female authors who speak out against the white ribbon campaign due to it’s misandric origin and message?
Thanks for the history lesson. I don’t know the history or the politics; violence is not the focus of my research or part of my expertise. I’ve been learning alot about IPV, perception, and presentation. I hope that it’ll make me a better advocate for men. I hear you about being broader in terms of presentation and audience, but I’ll also need some patience from you. GMPM has been kind enough to give us space; no other venue has as of yet. If I could get us regular space in Time Magazine, USA Today, or some other place, I would.… Read more »
“Thanks for the history lesson. I don’t know the history or the politics; violence is not the focus of my research or part of my expertise. I’ve been learning alot about IPV, perception, and presentation. I hope that it’ll make me a better advocate for men.” Well, despite you and Paul getting off on the wrong foot, I hope you (and other’s at SPSMM) will use him and other MRA’s as a resource of alternatives (to the feminist taught) viewpoints. The fact that you are willing to have this discussion bodes well. “I hear you about being broader in terms… Read more »
@Andrew P. Smiler & SPSMM… Male victims of abuse are awaiting your responses. Do you have any idea of the depth of the marginalisation experienced by male victims of abuse, particularly those abused by women? Do you have any idea of the extent to which your advocacy contributes to this marginalisation? In my country those promoting this thinking hold sway with governments at state and federal level. Agencies funded by government to help victims respond to desperate calls for help from male victims with laughter and accusations of dishonesty. In my state future welfare workers are being taught that male… Read more »
On another thread relating to this topic (https://goodmenproject.com/2010/12/11/men-and-violence-blaming-the-blameless/), Cooper Fleishman stated, “But one truth—yes, truth—about being a man is our privilege.”
Really? He might want to take a look at the most unemployed person in the country
http://www.businessinsider.com/most-unemployed-person-in-america-2010-12?slop=1#slideshow-start
and the most employed person in the country
http://www.businessinsider.com/most-employed-person-in-america-2010-12?slop=1#slideshow-start
So given the reasoning of this article’s author, if we can hold all men responsible for the actions of a few men can we hold all blacks responsible for a few blacks? Or Muslims?
Post updated to include author’s name.
“Kilmartin argued that we need to stop the violence—one way to do that is for men
to hold each other accountable.”
Correction: we need to stop the violence—one way to do that is for humans
to hold each other accountable.”
The problem with blaming men for domestic violence is that it neglects the dynamic nature of relationships and absolves women of their own responsibility for violence. In the journal for the Psychology of men and masculinity, the relevant topics include: • the victimization of male children and adults; and • boys’ and men’s relationships with girls and women and with each other Yet the SPSMM neglects male victimization and focuses on male violence only, rather than a more effective and accurate look at interpersonal relationships. The expertise and professionalism of the SPSMM doesn’t even begin to compare with http://www.nfvlrc.org The… Read more »
I wonder if SPSMM understands how apt this title to be? I’m one of the quarter of all the survivors of child sexual abuse who were raped by women. I’m one of the half of all survivors who are male. Among the victims I know personally are several who grew up as the only male in a household. Each of them was abused sexually and physically by their mothers AND sisters. Each of them served as a punching bag to assuage every single hatred and frustration their mothers and siblings held towards men. The worst experiences among the many female… Read more »
Folks at SPSMM and GMPM say that you are interested in reducing violence by getting all men to hold violent men responsible for their actions. You folks probably know like-minded women who focus on the problem of violence, and so I would appreciate it if you would please pass on the following note to them. I argue that we need to stop the violence—one way to do that is for women to hold each other accountable. When women turn their ability for violence—which is supposed to be used to protect their country and loved ones—onto their partners or children, that’s… Read more »
Thats it?! My god its like a mantra! They just keep repeating themselves untill we are unable to deny their arguments!
Paul Elam made some earth shattering arguments and all these folks do is shovel soil into the gaping crevices!
Passion and reason cannot exist side by side.
I guess thats why they have nothing to say!
The purported gist of the response, as I understand it, is that since some men are violent that it looks bad for all men. And that consequently we should coalesce, as men, to confront it within our ranks. But unfortunately the author quickly and erroneously mischaracterizes the nature of my argument. “Mr. Elam wants you to think about the issue in terms of men vs. women: who’s more likely to start violence, who’s more likely to engage in violence, and who’s more likely to get hurt,” is offered to readers. Actually, between myself, the person who wrote those lines and… Read more »
Can’t wait to hear the reply…..
**Chirp chirp**
When I notice two lesbians engaging in IPV, which of the two do I confront about violence perpetrated against women? The one that appears most manly? What if they both look like blokes? What if neither of them appears manly? This is terribly confusing.
I wonder if Kilmartin has heard of Munchausen’s by proxy, where a mother purposely poisons her young so she can appear heroic when she suggests a “cure” to doctors. In many cases, multiple children will die before anyone admits to seeing a murderous pattern.
What allows this to go on is that we have this image of empathic, nurturing women who would never harm anyone, let alone their own children. Another factor is that hospital officials don’t want to admit to neglecting the situation to begin with because of liability issues.
So given the author’s reasoning if all men can be blamed for a small portion of men then ALL men can take credit for the small portion of men who actually ever build anything. If we use this group think mentality and claim women are not responsible for violence because men commit more violence THEN women are not responsible for any contributions in history, science, mathematics, engineering, medicine, the arts, defense, building anything or inventing anything useful. I always notice when it comes to blame, the feminists, both male and female wish to play this game but when it comes… Read more »
@cb750: “according to the author’s logic, women haven’t done anything at all… ever… at all.”
Well put.
I must disagree with your characterization of Elam’s response as “men vs. women.” As I see it, he is stating just the opposite. BOTH men and women can commit violence and BOTH men and women can be victims. Instead, it is Kilmartin who is characterizing violence as “men vs. women” by making it a “men’s issue” and by characterizing it as a “toxic masculinity” while ignoring the other half that is committed by women. I take no exception to Kilmartin’s strategy of urging men to confront other men who commit violence against women, but by going only halfway, he is… Read more »
TDOM: “By characterizing IPV as only a “men’s issue” and making men responsible for IPV while ignoring that they can be victims and that women also commit IPV, Kilmartin is feeding us more of the same failed strategy that has failed over the past 40 years.” Agreed – well said. This is the fundamental flaw of both the Author’s and Kilmartin’s arguments. Calling upon men to stand up to violence is one thing…but playing the blame and shame game is something completely different. Besides, as an aside, what about when the violent one is a woman? As the CDC study… Read more »
Dear Editor. Perhaps instead of you coming in and trying to backpedal, Dr. Kilmartin could come back and answer the questions posed to him. You are twisting his words to suit your purposes and try to undo the damage. Problem is, your version is not what he said, and if he meant differently he should be the one explaining where we misunderstood.
“The idea that a small percentage of men can make all men look bad isn’t far fetched. The U.S. military understands this; the events of a small number of soldiers at My Lai and Abu Ghraib left the entire military with a proverbial black eye” Which branch(‘s) of the military was involved in these scandals? Did the US military only apply it’s change in policies to the branch’s involved? Was the shaming of the military only applied to those specific branch’s? or did the military as a whole, all branch’s, get affected by these actions? If politician’s were also involved,… Read more »
Very unprofessional rebuttal to assume words and intentions that are not there.
What is your name?
Not to mention the attempt at discrediting Paul via condemning his personal choices (IE, “anit-commitment”). pretty desperate.
Andrew Smiler
Found it at the bottom of the first article:
https://goodmenproject.com/2010/11/11/violence-is-a-mens-issue/
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Paul Elam responds to this article here.
Andrew Smiler of SPSMM responds to Elam here.”
“Elam wants you to think about the issue in terms of men vs. women:” Incorrect. Elam wants us to think about violence as a whole, not limited to one sex vs the other. It is you and kilmartin that only seek to look at men vs women, men’s attacks vs women. “who’s more likely to start violence, who’s more likely to engage in violence, and who’s more likely to get hurt. Those are important issues,” No, actually, they aren’t the important issues. The issue is stopping violence altogether, but pretending that it is only one sex that commits the acts… Read more »
“Elam draws an interesting parallel with problems in the African American community. What folks in those communities realized was that they needed to take care of their own. Black communities throughout the U.S. have found a myriad of ways to try to prevent their young men from becoming violent and thus being killed or incarcerated (admittedly, some programs have been more effective than others).” There is a distinct difference between realizing your community suffers, as much, or more, from a larger societal issue, and putting into place programs to help reduce the numbers your community adds to that problem, verses… Read more »