Lynn Gazzis-Sax asks a perfectly reasonable question about the question of masculinity and manliness.
Adam Serwer writes
It’s 2000 all over again: A Republican governor from Texas is running for president, and the press is swooning over his manly manliness.
As I read this, I realized that, if I’d been asked ahead of time to guess which politician, Rick Perry, Mitt Romney, Tim Pawlenty, Rick Santorum, Ron Paul, Gary Johnson, or Jon Huntsley, would be singled out for “manly manliness,” I wouldn’t have been able to point to one of them and say, “yes, that one’s the obvious candidate!” And that raised the question in my mind: How far do we actually agree about manly manliness? If I were to pick two singers, let’s say Bruce Springsteen and Eric Clapton, and ask you which of them displayed more manly manliness, would you all give the same collective answer? If I were to ask you to tell me who in the world you think is most manly (leaving out loyal answers like “my husband” or “my father”), and why, would you all describe the same kinds of people, and point to the same traits?
Source: Noli Irritare Leones
Leaving aside the insane notion that there should be anything more to “manliness” than either a) being able to produce human-ovum-fertilizing substances or else b) deciding that your genitals either are or ought to be male, what is there, exactly, that makes Rick Perry more “manly” than Bruce Springsteen, or Conan O’Brien, or the late Fred Rogers, or for that matter the female-bodied but impeccably masculine Sinclair Sexsmith?
Is Perry manly? Sure. But in the course of becoming one he’s emptied himself of every other thing that makes a real man human. I mean, yeah, it really does “take balls to execute an innocent man.” But to do such a thing requires one to have amputated every other vestige of one’s humanity.
Put it another way: if you could choose any kind of man to be would you choose his kind of “manliness” over all others?
Sweet Merciful Coconuts, What is up with the American (far) Right? Should we just ship you over Nick Griffin now and have done with it?
No Seriously, Republicanism is increasingly beyond parody. Well here’s the news, Bible-belt, there’s more people in the middle than on either of our sides, and all these battles are mostly pointless anyways, because folks’ll think what they think!
And all this from an Englishman.
Or, TL:DR You’s Trollin’!
“Not me, Lt. Col. (Ret) Dave Grossman, from whose justly-famous essay “On Sheep, Sheepdogs, and Wolves” I borrowed:”
I am quite familiar with his excellent essay. It does not apply to you. Narcissistic grandiosity is not characteristic of guardians.
Yup, newsflash, calling black women “masculine” has been used as a dehumanizing, devaluing tactic for centuries in the US. If you would like to be insulated from accusations of racism, consider not saying things that are obviously racially charged. That is my last word on the subject.
@Richard: “Thus Governor Perry is more of a man because he is able to execute an innocent man.” If what you are saying is true then any governor or indeed any lawmaker should support increasing the rate of executions to the point that the number of innocents executed matches the number of murdered innocents at, presumably, a vastly reduced margin. Only about two thirds of all governors and legislators are men, nor do I see any reason at all why only men should find your argument compelling. Therefore Perry is manifestly not more of a man for executing innocent people,… Read more »
@pst314: “You guys can call someone racist for pointing out the obvious about the difference between Perry and Obama, you call Perry a ‘manniquin’ and a “deviant” who has ’emptied himself of all humanity’, but to object and point out how wrong you are is abusive. Do you not have the courage to accept criticism?” I’m equally critical of my former senator, Al Gore (who’s politics I suspect you dislike as viscerally as I dislike Perry’s) who similarly emptied himself in the service of “manliness.” And for further reference, Sen. John McCain, who I disagree with almost completely in terms… Read more »
“Yeah, sure. Strong and eloquent disagreement is abusive. ”
Oh of course. The misunderstood genius! How could we have been so blind?
“He [Rick Perry] probably looks pretty good with his shirt off. He’s manly enough. For an Air Force pansy.”
That’s another example of what you seem to think passes for civil discourse.
As I said in a previous comment that you deleted, Perry served in the military in a dangerous job. Not only do lots of people wash out of pilot school, some of them die. And more die on active duty.
There’s something to be said for the manly virtues…at least if a society wants to survive.
Look at the Schrodinger’s Rapist thread or the Sex, Gender, Presentation, Orientation thread, dude, and see if I accept criticism. I just don’t accept people who say hateful shit without contributing to the discussion.
@figleaf… Bit touchy there… So a few people were mean to you in the northern states about your southern accent and THAT gives you all the qualifications you need to paint the Governor of Texas as “psychologically self-mutilated in order to conform to particular ideals of “manhood”? uh huh… good luck with those special gifts of yours. Oh and if the shock of tattered provincialism is what you consider a “qualification” then please know that I’m a Canadian from Montreal who moved to North Florida/South Georgia 32 years ago. I’m actually anti-death penalty but more for economic reasons than moral… Read more »
Love how the lefties don’t seem to understand much at all. In death penalty cases, the Governor of Texas can issue one thirty-day reprieve. He or she can also make recommendations to the Board of Pardons and Paroles and can either approve or reject the board’s recommendations on pardons or sentence reductions.
That’s it. S/he can issue ONE thirty day reprieve. So while the left likes to accuse the governors of Texas (if their names are Bush or Perry) of callowness, your charge tends to show you to be the ones who are callow in this regard.
Very good arguments. But since I was already planning to vote for Perry, there was really no need to try to convince me.
First let me say that I don’t support capital punishment. There are various reasons for this, which are irrelevant here; the fact I disapprove is the only thing that has a bearing on my argument, because I don’t want replies to distract with some condemnation of me. I am, however, a science graduate, and uncommonly for a scientist I am pretty competent with statistics. Therefore I feel I have to take into account sound statistical research, and I understand the scientific literature that shows that capital punishment works – by that I mean that it reduces the rate of crimes… Read more »
@figleaf, not to mention the nasty history of de-gendering black women and considering them to be “unfeminine” in this country. That remark has some ugly racial subtext.
Kronn: “Oh, and Michelle Obama is twice the man her husband is.” This being primarily a sex and gender website, and this post being primarily about the total disconnect between the two I’ll just point out that Kronn’s sentence makes my point entirely. By definition a woman can be more “masculine” than the father of her children, or a man more “feminine” than the mother of his children if and only if masculinity and femininity have absolutely no connection whatsoever with biological sex. (And lest Democrats feel too smug you’ll hear our side making similar disconnects in regards to, say,… Read more »
Well, how about we just acknowledge that the American people might like to have an actual – you know, MAN – in the White House, instead of this current man-child in the promised land? Maybe on-the-job training, in arguably the hardest, most intense job in the world, is not such a good idea after all, no matter HOW much “hope and change” bs you can talk.
Over ALL other manliness? No, I’d not choose Rick Perry. In the only relevant context, you pick him all day, every day when the current president is the competition. BHO shows no sense at as to what it takes to be a man. I suspect that intuition is always misformed if one’s entire life is one where he is always “right” and no further examination is need.
Oh, and Michelle Obama is twice the man her husband is.
Leaving politics aside…what is manliness? From my father, I learned that manliness is patience and stoicism. It is taking whatever crap the world throws at you and not blaming people for it. It’s doing the needful (whatever that may entail), protecting and loving your family, and seeing to it that your children learn the things they need to learn in order to become good, productive adults. Cover their ass when they’re too stupid or self-involved (as I was) to do it for themselves. Have the foresight to see what’s coming, take cover and make sure there is room for your… Read more »
I think manliness is embodied by two distinct and contradictory notions.
To his family or neighbors or even his country
1) A man should be kind, gentle, considerate, caring, compassionate and loving
Yet in defense of his family or country or neighbors should
2) at the same time be able to bring a level of violence and destruction so that no one messes with the things he loves
and to be clear 2) applies only to a genuine threat.
That goes for everyone else, too. If the only thing you can think of posting is gender-policing, gender-essentialist, femmephobic, homophobic, transphobic shit, please leave. You will not have a long and happy life on this blog.
PST314, I have deleted several of your comments for being gratuitously abusive. Please try to contribute meaningfully to the comment section.
Today, I have learned that some people think real men swear and insult others to show that they are real men.
Everyone knows that there’s only one modern model of manliness: Tom Selleck’s mustache (note: not Tom Selleck (sp) himself, the mustache only). Second, the only human form that embodies absolute manliness is King Leonidas of “300” (NOTE: King Leonidas is actually more manly than Gerard Butler himself).
As far as politicians in the Democrat party…Let’s be real: We’ll all take Hillary Clinton’is manliness over Barack Obama’s effeminate eunuch menstr-osity any day of the week and twice on Sunday Night Football (woo-hoo! beer n’ babe’s! ‘er whatever..)
“I hadn’t noticed Rick Perry being manly…”
Oh, I don’t know. He probably looks pretty good with his shirt off. He’s manly enough. For an Air Force pansy.
I hadn’t noticed Rick Perry being manly…but I have noticed that he’s a religious conservative prick.
“Well, send him off to the Reeducation Camp immediately! Or should that be the Glorious People’s Psychiatric Hospital?”
Or better yet, just don’t elect him, since a person who is dabbling in Christian Dominionism, or is a Communist, or a Monarchist, is perjuring himself if he takes an oath to defend and uphold the Constitution. But that’s how things work in a democracy. No re-education camps until Perry and his coven get into power. They can build off of their Jesus Camps and ex-gay brainwashing programs.