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Jay: I don’t mean to sound like I’m grousing at you at all Daisy, but this thing is a headscratcher for me. You sound like you’ve seen a lot more watchdog efforts against left groups, maybe you’ve seen how some of the efforts against hate groups. You really seem like a good resource to tap, here. What do you think the results of this would be? You’re right, there are no MRA rallies… its mostly online activity. So, who knows a lot about online stuff? Who might try to get someone to help them do something? Answer: “Anonymous” probably has… Read more »
I am much more excited by the resigning of Carlos Rogers for the SF Forty Niners than I care about the upcoming election.
FOUR MORE YEARS! FOUR MORE YEARS! FOUR MORE YEARS!
(and hopefully a superbowl ring)
Hint hint politicians, figure your shit out.
I would think that the SPLC might call out a bit of misogyny, if it weren’t for a couple problems. One the already mentioned calling over 5 million rape victims not rape victims, while distorting rape and DV stats. That isn’t cool. That is major not cool. The most charitable view I can take is they failed to read the CDC report, WHICH THEY CITED; not only that failed to read the TABLE which they cited. If you did not do the research to such a degree that you didn’t read the whole table you cited something is wrong. Two… Read more »
@ Daisy Sorry for a long delayed response. It’s spring break week for the kids and I’ve had to take time off from work to watch them. It’s been nuts. That’s a funny narrative: songs where men sing to women about how they’d like to sex said women’s world being songs for men. Like women wouldn’t want to hear Mick Jagger singing about how sextastic they are. I’m sure it was the relatively explicit nature of the lyrics, which really does show how hard people were (maybe are still) clamping down on the idea of women wanting sex at all.… Read more »
@Solo, thanks. For those who are inclined to write to SPLC about this, here are some things you might want to include (if you are taking the whole “honey catches more flies than vinegar” approach): – I appreciate your organization’s work on x issue / reporting on the Men’s Rights Movement (if this is the case for you personally) – It looks to me like your report is misinterpreting the statistics about the commonness of male rape, sexual assault, DV victims, here is how [again, Lamech has done the legwork on this in the thread, BlackHumor had some caveats which… Read more »
no more mr. nice guy said:
“And since MRAs believe the most ridiculous things that PUAs say about women, they must have disastrous relationships with women.”
Yep! Embittered by bad breakups with the fat, hairy, ugly, mannish bitches whose bitterness about being so damned repulsive to men has driven feminism since the dawn of the Second Wave, every one of us. You’ve cracked the code at last.
@f./Lamech
Thank you so much for pushing this.
@Daisy Deadhead Re. misogynists in the MRA movement.
Your completely right. We don’t want to turn into manboobs but we have to draw a line and defend it, regardless of what feminists did or didn’t do with their own.
My advice to the men’s movement: NO MEN’S STUDIES.
If you go there, flush it all down the toilet, or divide your movement into an educated and erudite “men’s studies” class, and all the rest of the working class men. And this split will hobble you and follow you for two more decades, at least.
Thank you, Marc! If I had it to do over, I would have done it differently. I wish I had been *more* adamant about the Dalys etc, but there is also part of me (and yall can no doubt identify with this!) that just thought nobody would pay attention to the wacko genocidal stuff and I was personally embarrassed that they were considered the “real” feminists. (I kept forgetting–the professors are *always* considered more important than the rank and file.) I now know, it is your enemies and detractors who will pay attention and call you out for your inaction.… Read more »
Black Humor: @Daisy: Did we ever really disown Mary Daly and Janice Raymonds? Black Humor, did I read a post where you said you were fresh out of college? So, I really have to ask: Whatcha mean WE? Are you still in your 20s? Were you there drawing blood and getting disemboweled during those political splits? If not, no offense, but I don’t think you have a clue. Why do you think you do? I am not talking about anyone who was not alive and active during that time. I mean, I suppose we can say we’ve disowned Raymonds by… Read more »
@Lamech, I completely know how you feel. Good information about sexual violence and DV is a niche subject even in terms of stuff about the most stereotypical perpetrators and victims, since it’s not something many people bother educating themselves about – I think a lot of times because it’s just too painful to really consider for an extended period of time. There is VERY little awareness of male rape among the general population, and a lot of ignorance or sloppy thinking out there about it. Which is horrible, and excuses nothing. I’m honestly not surprised to see an organization I… Read more »
I would like to note that now that I thought about it, there is a reasonable chance that it was not reading well on the part of the SPLC authors. A big part of the problem is the CDC’s classification. I still do expect better than that when its a professional author though. I suppose if it doesn’t change in the next couple weeks we’ll see if it is just poor reading, or something more nefarious. (I do consider poor reading + too much apathy directed at rape victims to change it more nefarious.)
Oh, and I wanted to add, I sent them an email asking SPLC to correct the parts about rape and DV statistics, using Lamech’s info. As a donor, I figure they should listen to me 😉 I’ll definitely post if/when they get back to me.
@Daisy, yes. The feminist movement has plenty of creepy, man-hating, transphobic, racist, ableist, classist skeletons in the closet and even Mary Daly got some positive obituaries a few years ago. People who care about men’s rights should take the excesses of certain feminist thinkers as a warning. Now, just to admit my biases, I ride pretty hard for the SPLC… they are the only national organization that bothered to give two shits about the Aryan Nations holed up in a bunker in the woods near my hometown back in the 90s. They came up and filed a lawsuit against the… Read more »
So you think women *should* listen to top forty pop music? Are you a man or a woman?
From my mountainous but crumbling fortress of privilege, I very softly, plaintively, apologetically mumble and whine:
– Ok. I’ll get rid of them. … But I liiiiiiike gender roles!
@Blackhumor: “Myth 1: Yes, the CDC report did find equal rates in the past year. However that was a single statistic in a section that otherwise found ratios of between 3:1 and 18:1 over a lifetime. (The idea that being forced to penetrate isn’t rape also annoys me, but it’s not entirely the SPLC’s fault; they were going by the headings used by the authors of the study.)” Its the SPLC’s fault (or just the authors’ fault as the case may be) for using the CDC’s definition. The CDC doesn’t send thugs over to your house if you use a… Read more »
Daisy, the problem is that a lot of the stuff the SPLC is listing isn’t even hateful, and is actually reasoned argument (see Lamech’s post).
And the distancing I usually see feminists do is the “not a monolith” mantra, which doesn’t really even denounce the person or behavior being criticized.
@Lamech: Oh god, so hypocritical. You realize you’re cherrypicking statistics much worse than they are, right? Myth 1: Yes, the CDC report did find equal rates in the past year. However that was a single statistic in a section that otherwise found ratios of between 3:1 and 18:1 over a lifetime. (The idea that being forced to penetrate isn’t rape also annoys me, but it’s not entirely the SPLC’s fault; they were going by the headings used by the authors of the study.) Myth 2: …I actually kind of agree that looking at general population assault statistics, as opposed to… Read more »
@Daisy I agree with you whole heartedly on this issue exactly why are we so reluctant to call out the crazies? As I’ve always maintained some of the best critiques of the feminist movement have been from feminists like yourself and April over at ethecofem and my others I’m sure. We aren’t being traitors to our gender if we come forward and say these people on the Spearhead DO NOT REPRESENT US!
Fortunatly for us it appears that the SPLC has made the first move for us.
@jesus_marley:
Sorry, I confused you with Jesus_Mahoney.
Re: SPLC. Look yall, deal.
WE had to put up with the Mary Dalys and Janice Raymonds talking genocidal wacko shit about “reducing the male population” and all of that, and we had to carefully separate ourselves from them. Nice mannered criticism, we realized, wasn’t enough, we had to DISOWN them and BE CLEAR ABOUT IT.
Your turn, guys. DISOWN the haters, or be defined by them. They’re the LOUDEST.
Unfortunately, that’s how it works.
No more Mr Nice Guy: And do you remember the Disco music vs Rock music conflict at the end of 1970s ? I think that Disco was more feminine than Rock. Yeah! I wrote an article at the time, pointing out the “feminine” voices of the Bee Gees, Michael Jackson, etc. It was for “Red Tide” in Detroit, which I guess tells you what kinda politics they had. 😉 We went up there a few times and worked w/them on the Rock Against Racism extravaganza on Belle Isle, it was terribly exciting. Many were POC and very concerned with the… Read more »
NMMNG:
I’m not talking who’s right or wrong. I’m talking about strike force, when the SPLC hit, they hit hard and lots of people believe them.
and that’s where who’s right or wrong comes into play. That hit from SPLC seems to be pulling a lot of information from a site that whose inhabitants have no problem dealing in misinformation of their own. So sure people will be SPLC but that “hit” is coming from dishonesty then wouldn’t mean that the people that believe it may be buying into some dishonesty?
@BTTF – “For those of you who identify as “feminist critics”, what are your views on gender roles? I think part of fighting for equality (for women, men, and people who fall outside the gender binary) is denouncing the whole concept of gender roles. Denouncing the idea that man can’t cry or like pink. Denouncing the idea that women can’t like hard rock/heavy metal or be gamers.” I personally don’t give a damn about gender roles. If you want to place with dolls, play with dolls, if you want to play with Legos, play with Legos. If you want to… Read more »