Hat tip to jnakabb, trigger warning for rape.
I hate picking on people who are trying. I really, really do.
But seriously? Writing an ENTIRE ARTICLE about how rape hurts men that doesn’t mention that, you know, men get raped? It’s like she’s begging me to teach her some shit.
According to the CDC, approximately a quarter of rape survivors are male (other developed countries probably have similar statistics). Deaths in the workplace are more gendered than that! But you don’t see people saying that women suffer from deaths in the workplace too, after all, sometimes men they know die. Because that would be STUPID, and even if only 8% of people who die on the job are female that 8% matters and we should not erase their experiences.
I mean, it’s not like her article is bad as far as it goes. It’s true that having people one loves be raped is a negative consequence of the existence of rape; however, it seems to me that’s less a bad thing for men, and more a bad thing for people who have not been raped. As an androgyne who has never been raped, I am deeply hurt by the fact that many of my friends are survivors– even though I’m not a dude.
And she’s actually quite insightful about the way rape culture hurts dudes! She even picks up on the Knight/Beast Dichotomy: “It was hard to know how to act around women, my boyfriend said, when it seemed the only options were being sexually aggressive or being completely asexual.” It’s certainly not good to have your appearance policed for fear that you might turn on some dude and then of course the inevitable consequence is being raped, but it’s also not good to be viewed as a walking erection who is completely not in control of his actions every time a person with a vagina appears. Ozy’s Law up the ass.
But seriously I can’t get over the fact that she missed that sometimes men get raped. That’s like following Romney’s campaign without realizing that you can vote for president, or watching the Avengers and missing the fact that shit blows up.
That 1 in 4 men statistic from the CDC is sexual violence, including stalking, not penetrative rape. Be careful about your wording, Ozy. You did it right on the primary article.
I meant not only* penetrative rape.
“I hate picking on people who are trying. I really, really do.” Don’t feel a bit bad, Ozy. She was hardly trying at all. ibn fact her reference to men geting rapaed to was just PHMT dismissal. So have at her. And yet this article represents progress. I am old enough to remember a time, before oyur time, when there were feminsits who stated categorically that men could not be raped, as a matter of defintion. That definiton was pretty mainstream then, but feminists have so renounced it that it is not uncommon to find young feminists who have never… Read more »
The monologue that really got to him was “Rescue”, an autobiographical essay by Mark Matousek, which describes growing up with a mother and sisters who had all been victims of rape. Matousek talks about the self-hatred he felt: “If men were rapists, then so was I”. This was something new – a man talking about the the way sexual violence towards women had coloured his world view. I’d wager it’s not the sexual violence towards women in and of itself that coloured his view that way. If anything its how people (through campaigns, blogs, movements, etc…) use the sexual violence… Read more »
She just comes off as ridiculously condescending to me. “Never had much sympathy for men”? Oh yes, ‘cos they’re a total hive mind who all go through the same thing.
“And I wouldn’t be surprised if many men, on hearing one of their friends had forced themselves on an unwilling date, would dismiss it as a “misunderstanding” or a “moment of weakness”.”
Is the implication that women wouldn’t? I’ve heard suggestions that Jerry Sandusky wouldn’t have gotten away with it if a woman had caught him. Yet when that female gang beat and sexually abused that boy for three hours, there was another woman who witnessed it, the one who’s flat the abuse was taking place in. She didn’t turn them in to the police.
Is the implication that women wouldn’t?
Lord I hope not.
I’ve heard suggestions that Jerry Sandusky wouldn’t have gotten away with it if a woman had caught him.
Yeah I heard that one too. Still just as wrong as the day it was said.
Yet when that female gang beat and sexually abused that boy for three hours, there was another woman who witnessed it, the one who’s flat the abuse was taking place in. She didn’t turn them in to the police.
What? When did this happen?
Check out the link. Did see mention of flat owner, but remember seeing it somewhere.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-478781/Sick-happy-slap-girl-gang-sexually-abused-teenage-boy-jailed.html
Heather: Well in that case I’ve seen people do the same thing with the term “lady,” so clearly that must be what Jezebel, etc is doing with that term? No…wait that’s not right. That tactic, of no longer using a person’s name deliberately and instead replacing it with either a term of endearment (used sarcastically) or any slang term as a way to shut down conversation and insult the person you’re talking to isn’t gendered. That’s a bad tactic, certainly, but it’s not a gendered tactic. It can become gendered if using very specific terms….”little lady” or “missy” or “girl”… Read more »
You are reaching. Lady in that case is not equivalent to gentlemen. It’s like “girl” or “chick”. Ladytimes, ladybits, ladyparts.
I know you want to believe feminists are all things misandric, but in this particular case you truly are creating something out of nothing…it’s just a phrase. “dude” is not a bad word. “dudebro” maybe so, but dude is just dude. I’m a certified feminist and I call chicks dude all the time.
Lady is the equivalent of Lord.
And I learned that playing Ultima Online, circa 2001.
Right. And Hey Lady, lemme tell you about the martini I had, Hey Lady, what’s up, does not indicate gaming levels, or ren faire titles. It indicates “girlfriend” and is it’s equivalent.
hey blogrunners, noseriously… has became unsearchable – google shows snippets from the article in the old adress, and the goodmenproject is unable to find the damn stuff 🙁 Please make your archive searchable, separately from the whole GoodMenProject.
“That’s like following Romney’s campaign and not realizing that you can vote for presidents.”
New favorite metaphor? New favorite metaphor.
<3
Forcible rape has declined every year for the last five years. 2011 saw another 4% decline.
wow, not talked about at all. i knew kids growing up that were molested. and have one friend that was raped (as an adult) by 3 men in a park at sunset. was really damaging to him and took about 5 years for him to reclaim his life. men don’t talk about this. for my friend, his mom and I know; that’s it. not his wife, dad, brothers, friends. they know he was jumped and beaten. sex crimes seem to hurt people on a different level. i’m so horrified by them and afraid of them. its the kind of crime… Read more »
Please stop using “dude” to refer to men in general. It’s really sexist and condescending.
I really don’t understand how the term dude is either sexist or condescending, and would very much appreciate an explanation of your statement.
I don’t mean to sound snarky or rude, I really am just curious.
Just use the gender reversal test; imagine if adherents of male-dominated ideology constantly referred to all women as “chicks” or “girls.” Would you understand how that would be sexist and condescending. Feminists love mocking fratboy types and men they deem to follow their stereotype of traditional masculinity, the type of men they imagine say “dude” all the time. They then use a scorn-worthy term to refer to all men as a way to subtly demean them. It’s like when white people use black-slang to reference black people and black culture. It’s both appropriation and disrespect. Just read popular feminist bloggers… Read more »
See, I use dude all the time and have never used it demeaningly. I honestly use it like ‘like’ as random punctuations to fill in places in a sentence while my brain’s working.
Notice that most feminist sites liberally use “dude’ in reference to men while at the same time use “lady” in reference to women. Who’s the inferior, the “dude” or the lady?
If they use lady, why do they not use gentleman instead of dude? Obviously, dude is used to lower and demean. If they use dude, if they wanted to convey equality they would use chic, not lady or even woman.
Cause the current form of “lady” isn’t like “Lady Diana” but more like LayDaeee!!!! Also I know a lot of women who use chick, dudette, chica, gurrrl, girl please, betch, and so forth.
Not everything is misandry, Eric. Not everything.
Nah, maybe a bit dismissive. Because even I notice the free use of “dude”, “bro”, and “dude bro” on feminist blogs. And the use is not always just common slang for guy
You win. Feminists are obviously the antichrist. In everything they do. I notice the use of dude, bro, brah, dudebro, duuuuuude, and more by everyone on my college campus. They must all be misandry, even the men.
You win. Not yet there is still a lot of f’d up stuff going on in the realm of gender. Feminists are obviously the antichrist. In everything they do. No some of them are the perfect angels they pretend to be. I notice the use of dude, bro, brah, dudebro, duuuuuude, and more by everyone on my college campus. Big difference between using it as a term to identify general people with and using it to identify specific people namely guys that might not be on the straight and narrow like some frat boys. They must all be misandry, even… Read more »
Man alive this is one of the most surreal and frustrating threads I think I’ve ever been on on this site. I think there is a difference between using language to be dismissive in general (to anyone) and finding gendered misandric slurs in pretty much everything feminists say. But, since we all pretend to be perfect angels while hiding hearts of darkness, I guess you are onto us. We love using slang terms that could mean anything to hurt men. And yes, this is sarcasm, because we have a post here about how rape hurts men. Written by a feminist.… Read more »
Right well I use the term ‘dude’ all the time…I must be misandrist? Heck, I’m pretty sure that makes all of California misandrist, particularly the surfers in the 1990s. Naw, don’t think so. Otherwise, yeah what Julie said.
The problem is not with feminists (or anyone) who uses “dude” ALL the time. The problem is with certain feminists who use it as a way of reducing any male they disagree with to a buffoonish level. This IS a problem with SOME feminists who use the term SELECTIVELY against men who disagree with ANYTHING AT ALL AT ANYTIME. I’ve had this garbage pulled on me before as well over the simplest of disagreements. I am James or Mr. Landrith right up until I disagree and then I become “dude” or “dudebro” and I no longer have a name. It… Read more »
Well in that case I’ve seen people do the same thing with the term “lady,” so clearly that must be what Jezebel, etc is doing with that term? No…wait that’s not right. That tactic, of no longer using a person’s name deliberately and instead replacing it with either a term of endearment (used sarcastically) or any slang term as a way to shut down conversation and insult the person you’re talking to isn’t gendered. That’s a bad tactic, certainly, but it’s not a gendered tactic. It can become gendered if using very specific terms….”little lady” or “missy” or “girl” are… Read more »
“I am James or Mr. Landrith right up until I disagree and then I become ‘dude’ or ‘dudebro’ and I no longer have a name.” EXACTLY. Calling a man “dude” is a way deeming someone not worthing considering and only worth responding to in order to mock. It changes the nature of the discussion. The goal is to create the impression that the “dude” is someone you wouldn’t want to associate with. “The problem is not with feminists (or anyone) who uses “dude” ALL the time.” I don’t entirely agree with this. Yes there are some feminists that use “dude”… Read more »
““Dude,” however, is not one of those terms, even when used as an insult.”
Yes it absolutely, 100%, is.
Except for the part that it’s a word used to describe men and women…like “mate” or “friend.” Heck, even using the term “chick,” as a way of replacing a person’s name as an insult still isn’t gendered like the other words I mentioned, and that’s a phrase that specifically you would use to describe a woman.
I understand your point, but respectfully disagree. Whether a term becomes a gendered insult lies in the intent and usage. Is it intended to be a gendered insult? Is it used only against a particular gender when used in that manner? Then it is a gendered insult at that particular time and place. At other times, not so much.
“Except for the part that it’s a word used to describe men and women…like “mate” or “friend.”” It is overwhelmingly used to describe men, and always used to describe men when consciously chosen. Like “guy” (but not to the same extent) it’s used to describe women ironically or reflexively out of habit. Here are the sentences where Ozy uses “dude”: “As an androgyne who has never been raped, I am deeply hurt by the fact that many of my friends are survivors– even though I’m not a dude.” “And she’s actually quite insightful about the way rape culture hurts dudes!”… Read more »
Actually, I’m with Eric and Danny on this one. In certain circles it really is used as an insult. I recall one feminist space on LJ where a few of the ringleaders would use “dudebro” to refer exclusively to trans men they disagreed with as a way of insulting their intelligence. (“Douchebro” was substituted in occasionally, though it was more often used on cis men.) Of course not everyone uses “dude” that way – I use it frequently for just about all of its usual meanings -, but given how I still flinch upon hearing “dudebro”, there are real offenders… Read more »
I’m not sure that “dude” really is the reverse of “chick”. Indeed I don’t think there is a precise female equivalent.
I’m not sure what you are talking about Heather, given that the specific uses that I described are directed solely at MEN. In those uses, it is GENDERED and meant as an INSULT. If you want to make the case about Jezebel or any other website’s use of “Lady” or similar terms, that is a separate issue, but one you won’t see me arguing against. It isn’t an either/or situation. Dude, in the manner I SPECIFICALLY described is a form of sexist insult as it is SOLELY used in such a manner against MEN. I NEVER claimed that it was… Read more »
Does this conversation have anything to do with rape? This is off-topic, take it to the Open Thread. I’ll delete any further comments about the subject over here, but the conversation may continue without me saying shit in the Open Thread.
My apologies. I was typing while you posted.
It’s cool, I’ll let you through. But you’re the last one. 😛
Hmm. The CDC stats seem to put male rape closer to 40% if I recall. Why do those stats always seem to get downplayed?
I think you recall somewhat incorrectly. NISVS 2010 Report p.17-19 and p.24: 18% lifetime prevalence for rape of female victims. – * lifetime prevalence for “being made to penetrate someone else” for female victims. 1.4% lifetime prevalence for rape(anal and oral penetration) of male victims. 4.8% lifetime prevalence for “being made to penetrate someone else” for male victims. 1.1% last 12 months prevalence for rape of female victims. – * last 12 months prevalence for “being made to penetrate someone else” for female victims. – * last 12 months prevalence for rape(anal and oral penetration) of male victims. 1.1% last… Read more »
A boy in England was beaten and sexually abused by a gang of girls and was so humiliated that he reported that it was a group of men.
“He felt so ashamed that at first he told police his tormentors had been men. He has twice tried to commit suicide since the attack.”
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-478781/Sick-happy-slap-girl-gang-sexually-abused-teenage-boy-jailed.html
The girls were caught because they filmed part of the attack and disseminated it. Makes you wonder how many instances attributed to men were maybe not actually committed by men.
The problem is that the CDC don’t record forced envelopment as rape, when it is the woman doing the forcing, they report it as sexual assault.
If you include “forced to have vaginal sex” as rape, not sexual assault, then 25% of the rape victims in that study are male.
Yeah, that is correct for lifetime numbers. If you apply the latest FBI definition for rape to the NISVS 2010 Report from CDC one can see that over their lifetime men compromise 20% of those who report being raped. But if you look at who reports having been raped in the last 12 months one see that men compromise 50% of those. Startling numbers which ought to generate much more attention, discourse and action than it has done so far. I keep wondering why that is.
In fact I recently got a reason why one self-identified feminist would rather not classify “being made to penetrate someone else” as rape. I’ll quote her answer in full: I have reason to believe that male victims, in particular, won’t be helped by this new wording in any significant way, but I feel as if female victims will be disproportionally disadvantaged because of it. In addition, I believe that this will allow male perpetrators to feel less responsible for their actions, because in a sexist culture, men eschew responsibility, which I think is why this thread is so full of… Read more »
She’s saying this because of this line “I’ve seen men deny and deny rape,” and she appears to be afraid that instead of the paradigm becoming “all are capable of rape and all should stop it” it will pendulum swing to “well women do it to so….” slight reframe on your take on it. My take is that all humans are capable of great atrocities and as such we all need to deal with that shadow stuff and we all need to protect those victimized by atrocity and continue to break down the gender issues responsible for making it hard… Read more »
She’s saying this because of this line “I’ve seen men deny and deny rape,” and she appears to be afraid that instead of the paradigm becoming “all are capable of rape and all should stop it” it will pendulum swing to “well women do it to so….” slight reframe on your take on it. ‘ Which is a defeatist stance by her which also throws victims of female perpetrators under the bus. She is yet another one in the large number of people I’ve seen that deny that women rape and whatever her reasons I can’t see any real difference… Read more »
“I’ve seen men deny and deny rape, but I’ve seen women actively question whether or not they (a woman) were sexually inappropriate or a rapist in a situation.” So, did they turn themselves in to the police or are women cool with I raped him, whatever. I don’t see how this puts women in a better light. Maybe the men deny that they commited rape because they actually believe that they didn’t. “Meanwhile, women blame themselves for their rapes and plenty don’t even bother to talk about it.” Does she really think that men don’t? “Do you think it’s good… Read more »
I don’t think they count 3rd party abuse like hiring hit men, which primarily women engage in, as domestic violence.
I could sympathies with her boyfriend. I was with two male friends. The club we decided to hit was near were another friend, who we hadn’t seen for years, lived. We had room in the car so decided to stop by his house (big mistake). His on-again/off-again girlfriend was there. They were supposedly off-again at the time, which generally meant that he was free to date others. She never cut it off with him because he was built like the hulk and lots of women liked his physique. He could bench 450 and looked like it. We knew he treated… Read more »
Abusive relationships are difficult things. You can’t beat the abuser into not abusing the victim, if you confront him angrily, he’ll just beat her where you can’t see. All you can do is tell him that it is not ok, and that he can come and talk to you about it. Most abusers have been abused themselves, hitting people that you love is a sign that you have serious problems. She can end the relationship. All she has to do is leave, and never see him again. If she has nowhere to stay, there are shelters, or you could offer… Read more »
I know it’s difficult to say something, but you just allowed yourself to be complicit in someone’s abuse. Talk to her, or him, or the police (just like any other crime, you’re legally obligated to report where I live). It doesn’t matter how not scared you are, you’re still letting it happen.
*report abuse, that is
You know calling the police never occurred to us. It didn’t occur to our mutual female friend. I don’t know if it’s just that you don’t rat out your boys. I’m still unsure I could have brought myself to do it. I’m not sure I’d be able to do it now and I guess that’s the problem. There’s a lot of societal pressure to keep things in the family. A friend of mine had a similar experience. A group of them were lounging in the living room of his friend’s house, when his friend demanded that his girlfriend perform oral… Read more »
What you say is absolutely true when you are talking about child abuse. If you see or suspect child abuse, as an adult you are responsible for stopping the abuse. However adult male and female abuse victims are not children. They have agency, and they are complicit in what is happening to them. You can talk to the victim, help them see that what is happening is not OK. You can offer support, offer them a spare room to sleep in, or you can talk to the perpetrator. However, you cannot rescue them like you can with a child. There… Read more »
I can see where you’re coming from but I think it’s absolutely wrong to frame it in terms of abuse victims being complicit.
For practical reasons there may be less their friends and family can do to help them, but that doesn’t make them complicit. Ending abuse is not just an act of will. This is a particularly damaging assumption for men because it ties into the whole “you must be strong to be male, if you’re abused it’s due to weakness on your part”.
I don’t think you’re interpreting what he said correctly. I think he’s saying that ultimately each person has to come to the realization that they don’t deserve to be treated that way in order for the abuse to finally end. He’s not blaming the victim. He’s saying that you can’t rescue a person who doesn’t want to be rescued or doesn’t believe they need to be rescued. One of the problems and I don’t know if this is what you’re getting at is that many abuse victims have had their self esteem destroyed by their abusers and so wrongly think… Read more »
I found out that guys got raped too in a really sucky way. I was fourteen and the guy who’d dragged me into a secluded area in the park lived near me, and because I’d gone through too much police and painful reactions from mother stuff the first time (when I was twelve), I didn’t have the will to tell anyone. He also lived near me so I saw him all the time. But that’s beside the point, what was one of the worst things is that he asked me if I had any male friends he could “see” as… Read more »
“Um, that was really rambly and TMI. Sorry.”
Don’t worry about it. Sorry you had to endure it. Too bad I wasn’t one of your friends. At 15/16, I was already into martial arts and weightlifting. At 140 lbs, small enough to be a target, but I was also juicing and did 80 lb curls as a warm up and could bench 180.. Breaking his appendages one at a time would have let out some of my pent up aggression.
” At 15/16, I was already into martial arts and weightlifting. At 140 lbs, small enough to be a target, but I was also juicing and did 80 lb curls as a warm up and could bench 180..”
Watch out, we’re dealing with a badarse over here!
That was almost 30 years and 50 pounds ago. I haven’t fought in about 25 years, but would gladly come out of retirement for this guy..
I know it’s fun to fantasise about beating people up but I think a lot of people, much as they dislike rape or rapists, are not cool with the idea of them being beaten on in some sort of vigilante justice exercise. Also, you seem to be under the impression that the only people who can be raped are those who are incapable of physically defending themselves against assault. This is not at all the case.
Really, compared to all that skeeve, your bragging about how buff you used to be is only mildly annoying.
“Also, you seem to be under the impression that the only people who can be raped are those who are incapable of physically defending themselves against assault.” I’d never say that because unfortunately, I have first-hand knowledge that this isn’t true. What made you think I was never victimized, because I was strong, fast, and skilled? It doesn’t protect you from a drug. That’s all I’m telling you. That’s all you deserve to know. I’ve been triggered way too much in the last couple days. Do you think the anger is there for nothing? I didn’t say I would beat… Read more »
I read the “too bad I wasn’t one of your friends”, talk of “breaking his appendages” and accompanying stats dump as implying “If somebody tried to abuse me, I would beat them up”
I am so sorry you had to undergo that. Don’t apologize for telling your story.
Um, that was really rambly and TMI. Sorry.
No apology is necessary on your part. You have not done a thing wrong.