Isn’t desire, Julie Gillis wonders, a good thing for all of us?
Recently, my sons had the annual Halloween festival at their school. Kids were in costume and frantically conniving and pleading for little red raffle tickets, which could buy soda, cookies, and popcorn, or passes for skee-ball, the haunted trail, or the bouncy house.
I was in an odd mood, having spent quite of bit of my lunch hour, and several breaks during the day, commenting and arguing on Tom Matlack’s piece, “Is Male Lust Turning Us Inside Out?” As a woman who loves men, and has boys, parts of the piece irritated me: the idea of male lust being so different than female lust and the double standards in place that make it hard for both men and women to come together in mutually-satisfying sexual relationships.
Why does this have to be so hard? Why can’t we find a good middle ground? Can we be honest with each other? Tom’s post was certainly provocative. The comment thread ran into the hundreds, and I replied, right and left, to nearly every one, but I became increasingly frustrated without understanding why.
While I pondered and tried to shift gears into a festival frame of mind, a good male friend approached to say “hello,” as our children wrangled more tickets and dollars out of us so they could get all the things they wanted.
Just then, an absolutely beautiful woman walked by, dressed like a fairy. My friend and I turned our heads and watched her float past us to the bouncy house. “Man, is she gorgeous,” I said. “I’m glad I’m not the only one who can appreciate that,” he replied. And I did. From the outfit, to how she carried it, both of us appreciated her “look.”
Nearly simultaneously, our local fire station brought over an engine to show the kids. They always volunteer at our festival, and the firemen parked their truck by the raffle table. I noticed a sudden, huge increase in ticket sales as pretty much every mom gathered near the shiny red engines. “Ooh! Firemen!” I said, making my friend laugh. “They’d better watch out, or they’ll wind up covered in soccer moms!” he quipped.
♦◊♦
Women don’t lust? Yeah, they do. And yeah, men do too. We all do. We all want, and we all want to feel wanted.
I thought long and hard about my reactions to Tom’s piece over the weekend. After seeing Mika Doyle’s excellent response, “Women Are More Than Just Virgins or Whores,” I started to realize why.
I get annoyed with the binary-ness of lust. Actually, I get annoyed with black-and-white thinking of most every kind: masculine/feminine, gay/straight, win/lose. That kind of thinking creates complete denial, that only men can have a yin and woman can experience yang. It denies the existence of bisexuality. Mostly, it limits us, I think, by making us feel that so long as we are in a box, we are safe, things are understood and comfortable, and no one has to deal with any cognitive dissonance. But boxes don’t contain life, and lots of things aren’t safe or comfortable. We’re not doing ourselves any favors by hiding.
I especially dislike the winner/loser scenario so beautifully outlined by Mika here:
The difference is that, while we may or may not like the results of male lust, men are expected to feel, display, and act upon their lust to a certain extent. Women are simply the recipients of male lust; our lust is shrouded in shame, guilt, and self-denial.
So if men lust and are supposed to express the lust, and women don’t experience lust, where do the men go to fulfill it? A class system, this Madonna and whore dynamic, is built, and women get caught in a never-ending cycle of either lying about or being castigated for their lust.
Women wind up in unsatisfied possessions to be wanted, not partners that share that wanting. Men wind up in constant states of stress, competing for women who withhold a natural desire for sex, intimacy, and love.
If men lust and want to enjoy their lust, then why keep women’s sexuality in a binary little box? If women lust and want to enjoy their lust, why penalize men for expressing theirs? Because that means giving up control of each other. It means men giving up ownership, and women giving up controlling this “resource” so many sex theorists discuss.
Wouldn’t it be better if we could both want each other? If we could share each other’s resources? That’s more of a world I’d like my sons to grow up in, one where they don’t have to feel shamed for having strong desires and one where they don’t feel the need to tamp down the desires of their partners.
It will take a while to get to that place, but I’ll keep working for it.
My children are young still, and they’ve got time to learn about the complexities of sexuality. For now, I’ll leave them to the wanting of candy, raffle tickets, and scary costumes. I’ll watch them as they grow into mature human beings, knowing that wanting and desire, and yes lust, will be a part of what makes them human.
—Photo Lite Speed Photography/Flickr
I’m intrigued by this whole “uses and dicards” thing. First of all, it presumes that the woman is sort of a passive observer in sex, not an active participant. Presuming that she was sane and not drunk, she decided to have sex of her own free will. So why is she being “used”? The feeling, to me, seems to presume that something more is owed to said woman than fun, courtesy and respect. That in order for her not to have been “used”, the man needs to instigate – or indicated that he’d like to instigate – a more permanent… Read more »
“But there’s a whole industry out there dedicated to the proposition that sex, for women, needs must end in a relationship and, if it doesn’t, the woman has been “used and discarded”. Why do people feel this is true?” One word – oxytocin, which binds the woman to the man in a way the man is not bound to the woman. And that’s without factoring in pregnancy risks (and risks of single parenthood if/when the man decides to abandon the child and mother). Women risk more in every act of sex. It’s really that simple. The risks each party assumes… Read more »
“Isn’t desire, Julie Gillis wonders, a good thing for all of us?”
Not if you’re a Buddhist or some kind of renunciate.
Hahahaha, Great point! 🙂 Very western-centric of me!
Julie, this is a great article. Thank you for writing it. It expresses what I often feel frustrated about very well.
Thank you!
Julie. I agree with everything you wrote here. I too want to get away from the binary-ness of lust and gender. Perhaps I didn’t say that in my piece but I was painting a problem and not yet ready to claim I had the answer. I am still not. But you have given a very elegant vision of what it might look like. Thank you.
Thank you, Tom. I appreciate that.
While we’re challenging sexual generalizations, I wanted to point out that there are people who are perfectly healthy who are simply not very sexual beings. They may have such a low libido or think about sex so little as to be essentially asexual. (Not gender neutral, just not very interested in sex.) There are people that have sex as a very low priority in their lives or who have built lives without it. They rarely feel lustful, just like some people seldom feel jealous or angry. We can’t really say that “everyone” lusts after lots of people and thinks about… Read more »
You know, there’s all this talk of men want this and women want this. Alright. I want this. I want a partner who is a 10, looks-wise, will lust after me constantly, give me great sex, have interests he shares with me, be able to hold a conversation, and be there for me in tough times. He’ll also let me have sex with and fantasize about as many other men and women as I want (of all different races and ages) while HE only thinks of me. I’ll be able to walk into a bar and get the hottest guy… Read more »
Well, my wife and I both think that we became a lot happier when we decided that we were going to stop looking for Prince/ss Charming and start dating some cute and personable frogs. We’ve talked about this alot and we feel that those women who think that there are “rules” to getting a husband are a bit like male pick up artists: both groups see the other sex, essentially, as a status object and not as real people. Both groups would probably be happier, to tell the truth, if they could just hang out with their same sex friends… Read more »
i’ve managed to surprise a few men over the years with my honesty about my sexuality and feelings of lust. i had one partner who really appreciated the fact that i lusted after him and was open about it. he felt *desired*, and really, isn’t that what we all want? we are all sexual beings, but our culture is still pretty messed up. take a line from tom’s piece in which a friend and (supposedly) wonderful husband turns to him and says that “His wife is quite beautiful, but mothering has “ruined her tits,” “. how wonderful a husband can… Read more »
I suppose sex drives vary from person to person. In my example, I don’t think anyone interested in the fairy or the firemen were looking for love, just enjoying the attraction. No need for it to go farther in any way or another, but just appreciating feeling the desire.
My goal in my own life, and my hope for most couples no matter their gender, is that they can find a wonderful balance of lust, love, desire, domesticity which changes over time. Both parties should be “getting something” good out of the relationship.
Julie, you’ve voiced what I’ve always believed. Lust and commitment can go hand-in-hand, but it’s the pretending that we don’t have any lust for anyone else while committed that makes us (men, women, anyone) feel oppressed, or resentful or even like we’re denying a part of who we are. Women DO desire like crazy, just as men do. I assume there are people who think I’m a slut because I might slip into general conversation with my girlfriends that my preschooler’s Spanish teacher is super sexy (sorry, he is!). It doesn’t mean I’m looking to have an affair with him,… Read more »
Great point, JF. Lust doesn’t always need an outlet. Certainly, there are times when it feels like it does! But sometimes just enjoying the feeling of desire is awesome. Reminds us we are alive.
I guess I’ll use myself as an example. Yes, I like to be desired, but sex isn’t as much of a fixation for me as it is the average man. Some men have what amounts to a part time job fantasizing and chasing and whatever else. The last time I was really really horny was several years ago. And some women find it more important to have a relationship that random sex or lust or whatever. When the sex starts it makes the relationship go in a different direction, especially if it’s early on. The easier sex is the less… Read more »
I should also add that it takes a lot less as far as looks to fire a man up so there’s going to be more of it. Most men can find something sexy in an average looking woman, but women get fired up over firemen. For example, men tend to be easier on a woman’s looks than another woman would be. I know there have been times when I would call a girl average but the man would think she was hot. A lot of men lack tact when expressing their lust. “Hey baby wanna have sex?” might work with… Read more »
I’d love to seriously consider the worldview you express in your two comments but it’s so dreary and yawn-inducing that I think there would be no point. I’ll stick with my delusions where men and women are equals who can have mutually exploratory and challenging relationships with each other that are actually interesting to consider.
Have fun with that: 🙂
If I have sex with a man, the thing I get in return is sex. I’m there too. But apparently my enjoyment of sex doesn’t count because I don’t want to fuck all men everywhere.
Ok Im sorry i see what you are saying now!
Lust is can easily be an expression of desire, not necessarily an action. All (most) of us meet people we find attractive on a daily basis. You probably work with several people who you are strongly attached to and are likely friends with some of those people as well. Attraction and desire should be explored and shared. You don’t have to go sleeping around with strangers. But we should all be able to express to someone, even through a simple compliment, that they are attractive. I have no problem telling someone that their hair looks especially sexy today, or that… Read more »
good posts alice, and it seems youve attracted some fans 😉
lol i see
“Men basically want to use a woman for his own needs then toss her aside. Why shouldn’t women get something out of him?”
Wow. It’s a good thing you’re making sweeping and unsupported generalizations about MEN rather than women, or else that would come across as sexist.
I think it’s quite a generalisation to suggest that its only women who want something other than just sex, and to suggest that sex, love and intimacy don’t go together. I know women (and men) who only want sex, I know others who only want relationships. I’ve been on both sides, and neither is any less valid than the other. I think this article addresses a very important issue. Lust and desire can’t be split off into male and female. Even if it could, that would completely disregard the experiences of people outside the gender binary, as well as the… Read more »
LOL
Most of the time those things are not together…Look in the sex and relationships part of this website…It’s much more about sex than relationships. It’s essentially a watered down version of Askmen, only men are more polite than at other sites. However, the message is the same,
“We are horny, and we want moooore seeeeeex!!!!
Now granted, there are a few men who value sex more than relationships, and women who just want sex, but generally we know how things go most of the time….
““We are horny, and we want moooore seeeeeex!”
You keep saying that like it’s a BAD thing, Alice. It’s not, and it never will be.
It is when you view people as something to be used and then discarded…Not every girl is going to like that.
I think it would be better if men used prostitutes more often and were gentler with everyday women. That way they get variety they seem to want to so much, and they can leave the more sensitive girls alone.
And not every man uses women and discards them. There are plenty of loving kind gentle men. And there are also mean callous women.
Where are they?
I’ll admit that I’m pretty callous, but thats from dealing with men. I think there will be many more callous/emotionally unavailable women in the future.
Unfortunately Alice is telling it as it is; I agree with all of your points. Women on average seek relationships more so than men, meanwhile in contrast most men seek lust before relationships. Sex is satisfying and most often times no strings attached, whereas relationships require patience, time and nurturing; so relationships are seen as a huge turned off by men. Meanwhile women have something called a biological clock…and seek men based on quality of relationship and not solely on sexual satisfaction.
I realize I must be an outlier. I know lots and lots of men who want relationships, and yes, they also want sex. Sometimes in that relationship and sometimes as a way to find out if the dating is right for them. I know several women who enjoy no strings sex as well. But my point is, that we all experience desire. I’d go so far as to say that we all experience desire for sex, for relationships. Lust occurs in women as well as in men. Women are not as likely to act on it due to this particularly… Read more »
I’m with you Julie. I’ve seen plenty of men who have wanted to maintain a relationship when the woman wanted to move on and have sex with other people. It really all depends on the person. I’ve experienced simple lust, had sex, then gotten bored and wanted another person. I’ve also been in relationships that required work and were completely worth it. I’ve also tried to pretend I could have a relationship with a few guys, even though I didn’t really, because I didn’t want to admit to myself that I just wanted a few weeks of accessible, passionate sex,… Read more »
Lust occurs in women as well as in men. Women are not as likely to act on it due to this particularly toxic binary we’ve gotten ourselves into, but women are capable of experiencing it.
In the West, Gay Men were ruthlessly persecuted for several centuries. Yet it didnt stop, and doesnt stop, Gay Men from acting fully on their lust.
Why do you think that is? I’d posit that it’s because there was no risk of pregnancy.
Then your argument is with Nature, and not with Culture. If it mainly the risk of pregnancy keeping het women from acting on their lust.
So do you think that het women don’t act on lust? At all? Or do you think that men act on theirs more? Or can it be that both sexes experience lust and act on it differently, depending on cultural circumstance. I”m not a historian, but I would put money on women throughout history having copious affairs, children out of wedlock and so forth. My argument is that women feel lust. That men feel lust. How it gets expressed has changed throughout history. How it gets expressed may vary based on individual human beings and there may or may not… Read more »
Women feel lust, really….that is quite the phenomenon. (sarcasm) I think when women have their biological clock talking to them, they tend to seek out (speaking of myself as an example) men interested in building a relationship, someone ready to settle down and not someone who is purely interested in lust and sex. Life is too short to waste it on men solely out to get laid…some men are comfortable with being a bachelor for life, but most women have the natural need to procreate and start a family. Men on the other hand, feel they can delay marriage and… Read more »
Also, because its just so easy to extract sex from a man.
Alice, some men are easy. Other men know how perilous sexual relations with any woman is if you are a man and are very capable of refusing any offer, regardless of how tempting it might seem. Some men also take their marriage vows seriously.
Most men are easy like Sunday morning. Even this site is tantamount to the fact that men dont get as much as they want bc women say no.
Also, I’ve known maybe one husband who didn’t cheat.
Do you ever get bored of misandric views? I know equal levels of men and women who cheat, I know of men and women who don’t want relationships, I know of plenty of men who CRY over heartbreak because their gf just left them, just as I know plenty of women who do the same. You turn this into a gender war and try to act as if women are deeper, want more than men do, based on your presumptions of what men want. It’s insulting to many men who have very successful relationships, marriages, who stay faithful that you… Read more »
Jun,
It doesn’t bother me at all. I never said men dont get heartbroken or whatever, but it still remains that men as a whole very easy to get sex from.
In all fairness, I dont deal with women on that level so that could be a factor.
I know very few men who are faithful, so….