This comment by Dave was in response to Tom Matlack’s post Being a Dude Is a Good Thing
Until recently very few men were publically challenging or even discussing masculinity. This is why the Good Men Project and spaces of its ilk are so necessary. Just because masculinity in its various negative stereotypes abounds in our culture doesn’t mean there’s any sort of critique of it. Obviously you [editor’s note, another commenter] are frustrated at the “rigid and patriarchally enforced definition of manhood”. That’s great! So are we! Dialogues about this definition – such as the Good Men Project hosts – lead to change.
In your comment I noticed a tacit assumption that because this definition is so prevalent, people discuss it. I’d contest that repeating stereotypes and speaking in ways that reinforce the usual narrow definition of masculinity does not constitute talking ABOUT it. Tom’s made the point that many dialogues about masculinity are female dominated, which is true. The feminist movement resulted in a generation of women (and several handfuls of men) educated and socialized to think critically about gender and gender dynamics. However males have not undergone such a revolution, and therefore have no education in how to think about or challenge stereotypes about themselves. Cut guys a little slack as we figure out how to actually talk about these sorts of things.
Finally, I’d like speak a little to your son’s inability to identify with anything traditionally female. As a heterosexual male, I am also scared of being judged as “bad, wrong, deviant, and disgusting” for, say, wearing pink. But do you know who will judge me? Not my close friends friends. If anything they’ll see my breach of social norms as funny. Not the male population at my school. It’s unlikely they’d give something like that even one thought before shrugging it off. It’s the straight female population that would judge me, that would question my sexuality. The reason why many straight men don’t embrace traditionally female tropes is because it harms their ability to date and their chance of finding a partner. Jesus, but that’s messed up.
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photo: wonderlane / Flickr
I had posted forgetting Ms.Magazine was the hidden hand here.
The majority of men are not queer, talking in high girly voices on how to please the wimmin.
Nothing you is going to change that.
Quit using the name of men for your queer agenda.
Not in my name!
(we’re not going away)
You are being inveresly illogical, just like a woman.
No, that is the same standard the fems asked for!
I’m guessing your reading comprehension is low?
More likely you are being deliberately disingenuous,just like a woman.
Sucks when your words come back to you doesn’t it?
“you are being deliberately disingenuous,just like a woman.”
“You can make all the concessions you want, but they hate you for your gender.”
Hypocracy, activate!
There is no rational discussion with the cult known as rad-fems. They want men to be subservient and silent about it. Any talk of basic human rights for men is met with outrage and shaming language,such as you are a rapist. They’re not looking for “erosion” they’re looking for total unquestioned supremacy. Seeing how this is supposed to be a site for men,and the women have called for MRA’s to be banned from this site,this say’s volumes that they do not wish men to have rights. I, in turn, suggest the feminists be banned from this “men’s site.” Gotta keep… Read more »
If banning MRAs “says volumes”, then so does banning feminists.
Double standards, activate!
Jill, how in the world did you turn “The feminist movement resulted in a generation of women (and several handfuls of men) educated and socialized to think critically about gender and gender dynamics” into “you’re making the assumption that such things come naturally to women and we’re all just programmed with how to talk about these things”? This is bogus, as is your assumption that all worthwhile women are so progressive as to be completely non-judgmental when gender norms are violated. Sadly I perceive your comment as being basically equivalent to those by men trolling feminist forums, invalidating statements made… Read more »
I’m not going to soften this message a whole lot for you because your comment is just kind of….self-pitying. I’m a straight female. I’m not turned off by men “embracing female tropes.” There are tons of such men in happy marriages and relationships. Yet you think it would harm your chance of finding a partner more than hiding who you really are? I think that’s a bigger issue for you than whether someone thinks the color of your shirt or you hobbies are too feminine – if you can’t be yourself, you’ve got no chance at all. I agree fully… Read more »
The _individuals_ are adults… but the male examination of masculinity is still taking baby steps. We’ll get there, but at our own pace. And we’ll work out how to discuss these issues for ourselves, thank you; we’ve seen what happens when feminism tries to drive discussions of masculinity.
SOME women would judge. But I would consider that to be an effective way to weed out the bad ones before wasting any time on them. 😉
“It’s the straight female population that would judge me, that would question my sexuality. ” I’m straight, but I don’t fit that stereotype. I love pink on a man, straight, gay or bisexual. I love other colours besides pink on a man as well: purple, yellow, red, plaids, pastel green…whatnot. In a sea of navy, black and white shirts, I find these other colours refreshing on a man – it tells me he’s not afraid of stereotypes; he’s unique, self-confident and has his own mind – that’s a bold statement with just colour. When I see men in the office… Read more »