The Danger in Demonizing Male Sexuality

male sexuality

Alyssa Royse explains how our current predator/prey model of sexual relationships is harmful to both men and women.

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Jamie Peck over at The Gloss, wrote a great little piece asking a great big question: Can Men Write About Sex Without Sounding Like Douchebags?  In asking, however, she wasn’t pointing at men and suggesting they are douchebags so much as she was pointing at all of us and suggesting that we have a tendency to demonize male sexuality. She rightly points out that most of the men who achieve any sort of status and acceptability in writing about sex are somewhere on the gender queer spectrum. Sure, James Deen has a successful blog, but if you read most of the comments on it, there’s this weird anger at him for being a porn star, and enjoying it and writing about it. It is couched in the assumption that he is just doing what every guy in the world would fantasize about doing, because, you know, the only thing straight guys want to do is pound as much pussy as possible.

Puzzling.

I was trying to wrap my head around why that was, and unable to come up with anything really to contradict it, when the incredibly brilliant Sabrina Morgan left the following comment on Facebook:

Cis men are also in the position of the cultural desirer, never the desired; many genuinely believe that since “no one” finds them sexy/since their sexuality is considered threatening, no one wants to hear what they have to say about sex.

God, that woman is brilliant. And she’s right. It is at least possible that women love the likes of Dan Savage because he is in no way threatening to us. I could be drunk, dirty-dancing on his lap and he’d be all like, “bitch, please, put that shit away.” I like to think he’d also give me warm milk and tuck me in, but who knows. The point is, he is no threat to me.

But more than that, he is an ally. He has, time and time again, stood up for the rights of women  to have full agency and autonomy over our bodies, spoken out against rape culture, and generally paved the way for an open dialog about human sexuality and our right to it. (Yes, I know there are many people who have serious bones to pick with him, he is not perfect, but on the whole, he is an example of a man who can write about sex without being called a douchebag for doing so.) Charlie Glickman can write about sex and sexuality without being called a douchebag, but he is also widely considered queer, and not a threat to anyone.

But to Sabrina’s point, what of the cisgender men? Specifically, heterosexual cis men? How we read their words has so much to do with what we, as a society, assume about their sexuality and how it manifests. Society seems to have set heterosexuality up as a thing that involves men pursuing, and women either accepting or rejecting—mostly rejecting.

This starts young. I live in Seattle, which is, by any standard, a very progressive city. Many of us do a mommy / daughter sex-ed class at Seattle Children’s Hospital as our daughters get close to starting menstruation. In the session of the class that is less about biology and more about navigating sexuality, the presenter offered the idea that girls would have to start learning how to say “no” to boys who were going to want to touch them sexually.

I looked at my daughter, who sort of rolled her eyes at me. And the woman went on, listing the many ways that girls could rebuff boys. I looked at my daughter again, and she said, “go ahead mom.” And I did. I raised my hand and said, “Can we also talk about how to teach girls to say ‘yes’ to sexuality. Can we teach them that sex is about pleasure for all parties involved, and that learning how to identify and say ‘yes’ to things that give them pleasure is how they learn to draw their boundaries and say ‘no’ to things that don’t.”

She replied that surely I could understand that protecting girls from boys was more important. I told her that I surely did not see it that way.

But it starts that young. Yes, girls are told that boys are predatory and somehow out of control. The corollary there is that boys are told they are predators, and out of control. Therefore, not a desirable thing, but a thing to defend against. From the get-go, we are teaching our kids to fear male sexuality, and to repress female sexuality.

As they age, and their media exposure extends beyond the protective (and crappy) bubble of children’s programming, we see example after example of men having to pull huge gestures to lure women into sex, or catch them, or trick them. Just off the top of my head: In Superbad when one of the guys talks about getting girls drunk enough that they can be “that mistake;” in Spiderman when he shoots a web to catch the girl who said “no” half a dozen times, pulling her in for an epic kiss that leaves them both breathless; in Anchorman when the guy uses a cologne made with “bits of real panther” that “60% of the time works every time” to get the girl. I could go on and on, but that point is that popular culture sets up this idea that men are sexual predators who need to resort to trickery and cologne to fulfill their one and only mission, which is sticking their penis in a girl.

It’s sad. It’s insulting. And it’s damaging.

♦◊♦

This way of looking at male sexuality conflates sexuality with predation. It means that he who posseses sexuality is assumed a predator.

That is obviously damaging to the vast majority of men who simply are not. They want and like sex just as much as the rest of us. However, it’s downright dangerous when you extrapolate that out to situations like the horror of Stubenville. It is this line of thinking that allows people to say, “boys will be boys.” As if this kind of predation is just natural for guys, when in fact it is not normal for guys to be predators. Most men are not predators.

Steubenville, and the way-too-many incidents like it, are not examples of natural male sexuality. There are examples of a violent rape culture than perpetuates the idea that predation is the natural manifestation of sex.

So with this in our mind’s eye, no, it is not possible for us to believe that heterosexual cis men can write about sex without being douchebags.  And that breaks my heart.  It breaks my heart as someone who loves men, in a whole lot of ways.

You do not need to trick us into sex, in fact, you shouldn’t. And you don’t need a cologne with bits of real panther to attract us. In fact, lay off the stuff, seriously. A little dab’ll do ya.

♦◊♦

So, how can we all work together to change our collective impression of male sexuality as something that is dangerous and disgusting? Besides the obvious—understanding male privilege, dismantling of patriarchal mythology and ending rape culture? Those issues are far too big for me to take on here, but without accomplishing those three, nothing changes. So while we work toward those goals, here are some steps to take along that path:

1. Be an ally. Help us stop the violence against women. I am assuming that none of you would do what happened in Stubenville, but would you have helped stop it? Have you been vocal about how wrong it was? About how that should not represent you or your sexuality?  From a societal perspective, we need your help. From a personal perspective, when we feel safe, we let our guards down, and that’s the first step to an intimate connection.

2. Ask women what they want, and listen to what they tell you. We are all different; we all want different things from the men in our life. Rather than getting lost in a frustrated guessing game, ask us. Listen to our answers. Tell us what you want, with words, and listen to our responses. Whether it’s sex or any other relationship, the best way to not be seen as predatory is to not act like a predator. And that means communication, not acquisition. Which, by the way, is also called consent. “Yes” is the safest word of all.

3. Let us in, don’t lure us in. Lay off the cologne, the pick-up lines, and the games. Please. Trust that you do not need to trick people into wanting you. Trust that you are worthy, just as you are. And that you deserve someone who wants you for who you actually are, how you actually are.

4. Don’t take it personally. Your self worth is in no way connected to whether or not some girl (or guy) wants you. I am constantly telling people to “Consider Cilantro.” (Seriously, I need that on a t-shirt.) Some people love cilantro. Some people think that cilantro tastes like tinfoil soaked in dish soap. That in no way reflects on the worthiness of  cilantro. And cilantro never takes it personally. If you can, don’t even think of it as rejection, you are just cilantro sometimes. After all, you’re not attracted to every person you meet, why would every person you meet be attracted to you?

5. And lastly,know that your body is beautiful. I, like most females, was warned that penises and balls and anuses were gross. I was told to hold my nose, close my eyes, get it over with. Imagine my disappointment when I saw my first penis and there were no festering boils hissing my name, no sulfurous clouds wafting up from a menacing member.  I thought it was kind of cute. As I learned more about them, I grew to love them, in and out. Hell, there are times when I was sure I heard angels giving hummers on high when I’ve see one. Most of us straight chicks really like your bodies. You don’t need to trick us into liking them. That is what makes us straight, after all.

However, they are not lures, and we are not fish. Do not, ever, show them to us unless we ask for it. The bonus for you is that when we ask for it, it’s because we want it, so you aren’t really risking rejection at that point, Mr. Cilantro.

♦◊♦

I am sorry that generations of lazy storytelling and bad media have perpetuated the myths of men as predators and women as victims. Or the idea that women’s purity is what can redeem the nastiness of male sexuality. It is wrong for both men and women alike.

But the only way we’re going to change it is together, and it’s gonna take time. We need to all be better. Oh, hey, I know, we need to come together—if we want to, that is. You can also come alone. Or with someone else. Aint’ no skin off my back, as long as it’s all consensual. And, hopefully, pleasurable.
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Photo: Flickr/ robnas

About Alyssa Royse

Alyssa is freelance writer, speaker, fitness trainer and personal coach living in Seattle with her husband and their 3 daughters. They own Rocket CrossFit where she spends most of her time training men and women in ways that are as much emotional as physical. She can also be found on her eponymous blog, where she pontificates about food, family, politics and the Seattle rain. Yes, she would love to speak at your event, host a workshop or write something for you. Just ask.

Comments

  1. Bay Area Guy says:

    Don’t take it personally. Your self worth is in no way connected to whether or not some girl (or guy) wants you. I am constantly telling people to “Consider Cilantro.” (Seriously, I need that on a t-shirt.) Some people love cilantro. Some people think that cilantro tastes like tinfoil soaked in dish soap. That in no way reflects on the worthiness of cilantro. And cilantro never takes it personally. If you can, don’t even think of it as rejection, you are just cilantro sometimes. After all, you’re not attracted to every person you meet, why would every person you meet be attracted to you?

    A compassionate message, but there’s always something about women telling men not to take rejection too seriously that rubs me the wrong way.

    I find it a little bit audacious to say that rejection isn’t a big deal when you don’t have to actually deal with rejection.

    • Alyssa Royse says:

      But we ALL have to deal with rejection. I have been rejected plenty. Just because you are not someone’s type, at a particular moment in time, doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with you, or that you won’t be someone else’s type down the road.

      • Bay Area Guy says:

        Are you the type who believes in the notion of “passive rejection?”

        (ie. if a guy sees a woman but doesn’t approach or hit on her, he’s “rejected” her)

        Otherwise, I fail to see how women can be “rejected,” since they’re rarely the ones who approach or ask guys out. At best, they get ignored.

        • Alyssa Royse says:

          Nope, definitely do not believe in “passive rejection.” I don’t know single woman who hasn’t hit on a guy, or asked a guy out, or tried to switch from friend to “friend with benefits” and hasn’t been rejected at some point. Or who hasn’t had some lovesick guy, on whom she had a crush, complain that no good women “want him.” It happens all the time.

          I am willing to believe it happens to men more often, but that’s part of the point of this article. That we have set heterosexuality up so that men are the primary pursuers and women are often expected to sit and wait for Prince Charming to woo her. That is, precisely, part of the problem. And part of what we need to change – the idea that men are predators and women are prey is not only a primary reason why men do more approaching, but also why women do more rejecting.

          That said, it is both dismissive and foolish to believe that women are never rejected. I have been rejected to my face, for being to skinny, too fat, too intense, too passive, having boobs that are too small, too big, or simply not being someone’s “type.” You name it, I’ve been rejected for it. Most of us have. And at the end of the day, it’s okay, because I don’t want to be with someone who has to be convinced that I’m a great score. I deserve better than that. I deserve (and found) someone who is unbelievably psyched that he found me, because he didn’t think he’d find a woman who was exactly his type. (I’m a lucky woman. He’s a lucky man.)

          • The best thing would be to destroy the idea of universal beauty. There is no 10, or 9, every single person has difference scales of attractiveness. There are women whom I find extremely sexy that my friends think are too skinny, too this, too that, too pale, etc. Redheads to me are incredibly sexy, to some others they are ugly. Some folk like big, some like small, some like massive boobies, some like itty bitties, some people like bitches/assholes, some like nice, sweet men/women. I have a friend who is a model and some people think she is too thin, yet others think she is perfect. I have friends who like “cuddly” men/women and aren’t attracted to thinner people, some LOVE skinny scrawny folk others love muscle-bound weightlifters.

            If we can get away from the idea that we have to fit a narrow mold of attractiveness then we might realize that people vary. I knew a very attractive and quite thin woman who LOVED big men, overweight men, as an overweight guy it helped me realize that attraction varies hugely! Previously I thought that everyone just liked thin “conventionally attractive” people but I’ve heard from a few people that they like bigger men or women, that they feel safe with someone bigger, like something to grab onto. Personally I am MOST attracted to thin, petite women with definition in their body, no idea why but it’s just what happened. I am still attracted to a wider variety of bodytypes though and a person’s smile and especially eyes is usually what wins me over + of course the personality. There are many who at first looked neutral but their personality grows on you and you start to think of them as very cute.

            It’s very hard to say what my type is though because there is an unknown element involved, there is this sweet, calming feeling I get around a small number of women and I have no idea why. Something they do puts me at ease, their personality, their vocal tones, their body language, their smile, something makes me feel SAFE just be being near them and they are someone I’d definitely date. Hell maybe it’s pheromones to some degree!

        • Joanna Schroeder says:

          Dude, I’ve been rejected plenty. I was rejected by both Aaron Eckhart and Keanu Reeves. Swear. And tons of other guys you don’t know. That’s life. I ended up happy.

          • Bay Area Guy says:

            Okay, that initial response was harsh, but your comment about being rejected by Keanu Reeves came across as condescending.

            If men were really the entitled, predatory pigs who think they’re entitled to women like Kate Upton, then your comment about being rejected by Keanu Reeves and Aaron Eckhart would make sense.

            But in reality, as I’ve said, guys have a hard enough time hooking up with women in their league.

            • It sounded really condescending to me too.

            • Joanna Schroeder says:

              Sorry if it seemed condescending, I’m really just not depressed about having been rejected and in retrospect I think it’s funny that I was rejected by two famous guys. I didn’t like them because they were famous, I knew a ton of famous guys then through work, they are both interesting, stoic, guys.

            • “Sorry if it seemed condescending, I’m really just not depressed about having been rejected and in retrospect I think it’s funny that I was rejected by two famous guys. I didn’t like them because they were famous, I knew a ton of famous guys then through work, they are both interesting, stoic, guys.”

              If you were involuntarily celibate, haven’t had a date in years, no partner, no love, would you still feel the same? Not all of us have partners, life gets pretty damn lonely when the only intimacy you get is from your left or right hand!

            • It’s actually a bit like hearing someone say they aren’t depressed because sometimes they skipped a meal when you’ve been starving for days/weeks (since years would kill in relation to food).

            • Just… stop talking. You don’t get it.

            • Joanna… here’s the thing. This is basically what you said (or at least what I’m assuming the men who are calling you out heard)

              “I’ve been rejected by two A-List celebrities who often have thousands of women drooling for them and could, probably quite literally, have any woman they wanted so I totally know what it’s like for you to be rejected by the cute girl at your office, or the lady at the bar, or the woman who goes to your church. And I really do understand the pain of going possibly years without a date. Really! I get it! I’ve been rejected twice by famous actors! TWICE!”

            • Mr Supertypo says:

              wait a moment, you have been rejected by Keanu Reeves? you actually met Keanu and asked him out, or did the two of you dated for a bit, and then he rejected you? all I can say is wow!

            • Never heard of him.

            • Joanna

              Thats interesting. Can I ask you a question regarding this incident?

            • @Tim….

              Not even the decency of a reply. Yet, we are suppose to be engaged in discourse.

            • PursuitAce says:

              Maybe his reply was blocked. You never know.

          • I realize you’re simply saying as a woman you’ve been rejected. I am curious though in your experience do rejections bother you more than not being hit on? Since men are more likely to hit on women than the reverse. I’ve heard many women talk about feeling invisible and this “passive rejection” would certainly hurt.

            “Dude, I’ve been rejected plenty.”
            How often have you been hit on though? There is a huge difference between someone rarely ever being hit on and being rejected often, and someone who’s hit on quite a lot and is rejected often. I’ve never been hit on, but have been rejected a few times so the chances of me knowing I am attractive would be far less than someone who’s actually been hit on even if they’re been rejected often. If you can be passive and still get hit on would the rejections be as bad for you as for a man who can pretty much only rely on being “active” in asking others out?
            “I ended up happy.”
            How?

            • Correction “If you can be passive and still get hit on would the rejections be as bad for you as for a man who can pretty much only rely on being “active” in asking others out?
              ***Bad for you in the sense of your chances at finding a partner****

            • 😉 I’m 43. I’ve long since given up counting, or paying attention. Sure, I get hit on, sometimes. But not nearly as often as my friends – historically – who dressed up, put on make-up, flirted. I was always the shy tomboy in glasses, jeans and converse. (Still am.) I definitely went un-noticed more often than not, and yes, it sucked when I was younger. I was always the “smart one.” Never the “pretty one.”

              At 43, it’s quite different. I was a late bloomer. So ya, I look at things through the long lens. (I would not go back to my 20’s for anything.)

              We are, for better or worse (oh, who are we kidding, for the worse) socialized to play these games, and play different, prescribed roles. While the mechanism of feeling rejected, unwanted, unseen may be different, I very much doubt the net result is all that different.

            • Yeah I have friends whom are male who are angry at being rejected, and female friends whom are angry at being invisible. I myself am just angry that it’s hard to find SINGLE people where I live, all my hobbies n activities I do, everywhere I go usually has women who are dating and mostly married with kids. I am sure there are heaps of men n women at home on a friday n saturday night here who are lonely but the nightlife sucks as it’s a smallish town. My aunt told me that there use to be far more school dances, and even as adults people went out to dance and mixed more whereas these days it’s clubs with loud music + very drunk people that many do not wish to be around.

              I do think there are probably far more shy men these days who aren’t asking women out and more women who are asking men out, hopefully people will just ask out whoever they’re interested in vs sticking to gender roles so heavily. That way shy people won’t be as worse off and more people will have the chance at dating. We also need to find a way to get shyness out of people, build up their confidence.

            • Alyssa Royse says:

              I get it. I am PAINFULLY shy. That’s why I write! I met my husband online dating, because I was more comfortable that way, and before we met I warned him that I am so shy that I sometimes just fuck up meet-n-greets. I also met him straight from the gym, unshowered, because I wanted him to know the “real me,” from the get-go. I was old enough to know that I needed a guy who would be happy when he saw me, unshowered, stinky from the gym, and kinda awkward – because that’s who I am. Of course, I was in my 40’s before I figured that out. My great hope is that my daughters figure it out much younger. And that maybe I can help other people figure that out too.

            • FlyingKal says:

              It’s funny, cause that “be who you are/be yourself” thing often comes with a long list of “But…” at the end, when it is applied to men. And one especially common, one that I was told as recently as yesterday (or possibly the day before) is “Dress nice, be clean, and shower every day”.

              I wasn’t just a late, but also a SHORT bloomer. I’m also in my 40’s and I haven’t figured anything out. At least in my 20’s, I looked good (relatively… “better”…). But if I were 20 years younger, and knew what I know now… I’m not sure I’d consider it being worth it.

            • Joanna Schroeder says:

              I honestly can’t say what it would be like to not be hit on, that’s part of being a woman with some degree of beauty privilege. I can’t assert what the experience of anyone other than me has been like. That’s not my job.

              But I have been ruthlessly cheated on, had my heart stomped more than once, been lied to, had a guy break my nose because I rejected him, and been sexually assaulted in my life of dating, before I met Ivan. I’m not saying it’s better or worse than anything anyone else went through, but it’s not that I was born pretty and everyday was cupcakes after that and everyone loved me all the time and life was easy.

              Everyone’s life is hard and easy, to varying degrees. I can’t imagine what my life would have been like if I’d not believed what I do. And what I believe is that life isn’t fair and people sometimes act shitty, but that you get to decide how you’re going to extrapolate shitty people’s choices out to the rest of the world.

              I love men. That’s why I’m here. That one broke my nose, that another (few) cheated on me, that some bullied me or slut-shamed me, that one thought my body belonged to him will not define for me what masculinity is, or who men are. I have a genius, wonderful, adoring husband and had a wonderful first husband, too.

              Life is good despite there being assholes in the world.

            • Indeed. Even the super rich get depressed, it’s why I cringe when people make fun of the middle or upper-class urban kid who is depressed. His/her pain is just as real even if we think their life of luxury should cure all pain but they still get raped, abused, treated like dirt, have mental health issues through no fault of their own, get bullied, experience heartbreak, etc.

              “I honestly can’t say what it would be like to not be hit on, that’s part of being a woman with some degree of beauty privilege. I can’t assert what the experience of anyone other than me has been like. That’s not my job.”
              As long as you avoid telling others they shouldn’t be sad because they don’t get hit on then it should be ok. Sometimes people will forget that there are people whom romantic opportunities are EXTREMELY rare so they act like it’s no big deal to be rejected yet rejection for them is more like…You’ve gone 5 years without a kiss, a date, sex, you’ve been rejected for the 50th time, your desire for intimacy is extremely high. A person who’s had relationships on n off regularly wouldn’t truly understand the level of pain that could bring and it can sound very dismissive if they make like it’s no big deal. (not saying you’re doing this btw)

              But even people whom get sex every night still feel heartache, just the pain is different. No one’s pain is overly worse than the other because pain is subjective. I’ve been punched a few times in succession at a club before and the pain from that was nothing compared to the pain I felt of heartbreak, or the pain of being rejected for games as a kid. Hell my broken wrists didn’t hurt as much as heartache or being bullied. Rejection for some can be nothing, they move on to the next but for others it can leave them feeling like shit for ages. I was once rejected in highschool pretty roughly as the girl was a bitch about it (other people said that), for quite a while it scared me off asking out girls because I thought they’d be assholes about it. That hurt a lot and because it was in a key period of development it took a long time to get past, just like your first step into the water resulting in a near drowning would scare the hell out of you for going swimming again.

          • My heart breaks for you.

          • What about Jon Bon Jovi?

            • Joanna Schroeder says:

              Dude, he’s been married forever. But I did love his big hair in the early 90s.

              LA is weird, naming the celebs as mostly making fun of myself, but it might be LA humor 😉

          • Joanna, how does your experience as an attractive person being rejected by famously attractive people give you insight into what it feels like to be so unattractive that even ordinary people with few dating prospects reject or ignore you?

            I don’t see this as women not understanding what it’s like for men. I see this as attractive people not understanding what it’s like for unattractive people. (By “this”, I mean a lot of this thread, not just this comment.)

            • Oh for Pete’s sake. I am not conventionally attractive and I still totally get what she’s saying in her comment…and in this thread. The whole “dating market” thing is absolute nonsense. As if being attractive somehow means you’ve got more “dating prospects” than those of us who aren’t more conventionally attractive. That’s assuming that, not only is dating like shooting fish in a barrel if you’re conventionally attractive, but that you really don’t care which fish you get…the point is just catching something. That’s utter nonsense.

              £10 says that when Joanna was dating, she was always looking for someone who, though physically attracted to her, wasn’t just interested in her because she’s conventionally attractive. So, actually, her “potential dating pool” was, in some ways, limited by her attractiveness…because she had to find people who would look past her initial appearance. Which, funnily enough, is exactly the same experience that I (as a fat sometimes quite butch woman) have had…I’ve had to find people who’ll look past my initial appearance. Two sides of the same coin in which a woman’s appearance is what a lot of people think is most important about her.

              (Side notes: 1 – I don’t mean to speak for you Joanna. 2 – In advance of a “but you’re a lesbian so it’s different” type of comment…I’ve been hit on by guys more than I’d like. And, more importantly, lesbians are still situated in the general culture in which a woman’s appearance is considered important).

            • “As if being attractive somehow means you’ve got more “dating prospects” than those of us who aren’t more conventionally attractive. That’s assuming that, not only is dating like shooting fish in a barrel if you’re conventionally attractive, but that you really don’t care which fish you get…the point is just catching something. That’s utter nonsense.”
              +
              “So, actually, her “potential dating pool” was, in some ways, limited by her attractiveness…because she had to find people who would look past her initial appearance. .”

              Umm. A non conventionally attractive person’s dating prospects will be FAR lower to the point they may not get hit on at all. 1 person hitting on you is better than none. The fact that she gets far more people hitting on her (hypothetically, I don’t know her life) means the chances of her finding a partner will be FAR HIGHER than someone who rarely gets hit upon because there is this other side to your idea and that is the person whom hits on the non-conventionally attractive person is doing so for reasons such as casual sex with no interest in dating, desperation, etc. Her options would be far superior. It’s true they may not be what she wants but that’s true for all people dating, why would the uglier person get better luck?

              “2 – In advance of a “but you’re a lesbian so it’s different” type of comment…I’ve been hit on by guys more than I’d like.”
              You do realize you’re here talking to men who most likely haven’t been hit on at all right? At least I haven’t been hit on and some of the others haven’t either. When you get guys n girls saying they feel largely invisible because no one hits on them, how are there dating prospects even similar to Joanna’s? Looks still matter a lot for dating, even good looking women without a job (and men too I guess) still get access to dating far far more than ugly people would. The Prospects are far superior the more attractive you are, as they also increase with your wealth for men. Abled body, a bodytype that is closer to the more desired ideal which is currently athletic or thin, symmetrical face all give huge privilege in the dating world because they’re so highly desired. Realize that if you can reject ONE or more people you are probably doing far better than many folks who don’t get hit on. If you can go about your day and still get randoms hitting on you then you’re experiencing something that many do not get (mostly men of course). These ALL increase your prospects even if you are picky as hell you’re STILL getting people showing interest in dating you or desiring some form of relationship more than friends. Just because you aren’t interested doesn’t make them not a prospect, but simply a prospect that failed to impress you or spark interest.

            • OirishM says:

              Oh for Pete’s sake. I am not conventionally attractive and I still totally get what she’s saying in her comment…and in this thread. The whole “dating market” thing is absolute nonsense. As if being attractive somehow means you’ve got more “dating prospects” than those of us who aren’t more conventionally attractive. That’s assuming that, not only is dating like shooting fish in a barrel if you’re conventionally attractive, but that you really don’t care which fish you get…the point is just catching something. That’s utter nonsense.

              Yes, like all claimed privileges, they aren’t really that much fun to actually HAVE.

              But hey, if us men are going to get slated 24/7 for hours, can’t hurt to do a little of the same in return when it comes up.

              And seriously, “I got turned down by two celebrities, so I know what it’s like”?

              The phrase “let them eat cake” springs to mind.

            • OirishM says:

              *”for OURS”, rather – not hours

            • Bay Area Guy says:

              And seriously, “I got turned down by two celebrities, so I know what it’s like”?

              The phrase “let them eat cake” springs to mind.

              Indeed. To quote someone who’s a hero to most women on this site, “privilege is invisible to those who possess it.”

              I must say, quite a few women are exhibiting some serious blind spots. .

            • Joanna Schroeder says:

              Hey, umm, go a few comments up and see that I actually named that as privilege.

              Also, the celebrity thing (as I’ve already said, if you would actually read the comments) was a joke. I recognize that outside of LA it might not be funny.

            • Bay Area Guy says:

              Indeed, L.A. is its own separate planet, in my opinion.

            • I think what Bay Area may be talking about is that even though you brought up privilege you kept it gender neutral.

            • But aren’t you saying you have privilege, but then saying it doesn’t really change your experience? Which sort of renders privilege moot.

            • FlyingKal says:

              HeatherN,
              I think we all, or at least the vast majority of us, are looking for someone who is at least somewhat attractive both physically and intellectually.
              Which means that the physical attractiveness is a limiting factor for all of us. Appearance is rarely someting that’s just looked past.

            • Joanna Schroeder says:

              Yeah, listen. Of course I had to deal with the problems of being wanted for the way I looked. But like I said, beauty is a privilege, and like all privileges, it opened doors but didn’t make life perfect for me as an individual. I never dated a conventionally handsome man until I met my husband and frankly wouldn’t give him the time of day for weeks and weeks because I was so used to hot guys just wanting a trophy.

              The less attractive, more overweight, bookish guys were always my friends first and I knew they liked me for what I was inside.

              Again, this isn’t a comparable problem, but it’s something.

            • Did you date the bookish, more overweight guys?

            • Well, the thing with youth/beauty privilege is that it will disappear. Wait until you are over 40 and you will never have to deal with it again! :-)

            • @Sarah…

              There many beautiful, intelligent, glowing, and confident women over 40. I love these women and prefer to engage them or date them. Why? They are like a fine Bordeaux. Simply awesome!

      • Jonathan G says:

        But we ALL have to deal with rejection. I have been rejected plenty. Just because you are not someone’s type, at a particular moment in time, doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with you, or that you won’t be someone else’s type down the road.

        Okay, Alyssa, this sentiment really, really trips my trigger, and I had to take a few moments before writing to collect myself. I hope I can keep a lid on the residual rage and that it doesn’t seep in too much to my reply. I appreciate this piece a great deal, and my anger is not directed at you, personally, but at the attitude above. When I read that, all I can think is, YOU DON’T GET IT!

        In your comment above, I see the underlying assumption that subjective experience of rejection has a linear correlation to the amount of it, that since you’ve experienced a certain amount of rejection, that you can extrapolate what that must feel like to experience vastly more rejection simply by imagining more of your experience. But it doesn’t work that way! Even in the physical world, the scale of a phenomenon changes the qualitative nature of the outcome. A piece of straw crumples when you press it against the bark of a tree, whereas a tornado can hurl it with enough speed to embed itself in the wood. One hundred milligrams of caffeine gives you energy and focus; three or four hundred milligrams of caffeine leads to anxiety, agitation, stomach upset, rapid heartbeat, et cetera; three or four grams of caffeine can lead to death. A wave on the ocean may lap serenely against the shore; a bigger wave will lash the shore with a roar; an even bigger wave will rush miles inland, kill hundreds of thousands of people and devastate everything in its path.

        Or, when you say, “I have been rejected plenty,” to a guy who has endured relentless, chronic, ubiquitous rejection, it’s like you got caught unprepared in a downpour and then say to the drowning man, “I understand what you’re going through, as I have had to deal with unwanted water, too.” Sorry, no, it’s not the same. The scale of the phenomenon fundamentally alters the qualitative outcome. When you’re a man approaching middle age having been single virtually your entire adult life, when you’re invisible to most women, when you face rejection almost every time you try, when you face pre-emptive rejection before you try (even if that wasn’t your intention), when women who do go out on dates with you seem to hold something back as if critically evaluating your performance, when you’ve never once been told by a potential sex partner that you’re physically attractive, when most of the few that you’ve had have mentioned that you’re not their usual type, when in bed they seemed reluctant to touch you and more interested in what you could do for them, well, sometimes when you think about it you get the symptoms of a mild panic attack: the pervasive, unreasoning fear, the helplessness, the racing heart, the inability to breathe… sometimes it does literally feel a little like drowning. It’s a very different thing than feeling rotten when you got rejected a few times.

        That’s why I’m with Bay Area Guy, and it rubs me the wrong way, too, when women advise men not to take rejection too seriously.

    • I think there is a bit of, “Of course you’d say that. You’re one of them.” going on with things like that.

      By “them” I mean of course that its someone of a group identity trying to tell you that what someone of their same group just did to you wasn’t that big of a deal.

      Yes I know that men reject women and women reject men and if you get down to it, those rejections share a lot in common (they can get nasty, they can get mean, and yes they can get quite personal). But when it comes to dating there are still pretty thick gender lines.

      • I think I addressed that in my comment above, probably as you were writing yours, but, if not, let’s figure it out. Yes, I think it’s possible that rejection happens more to men than women, but that is all part of the same problem, in which men are expected to pursue and women to respond.

        • I actually wasn’t bothering to touch on the “who gets rejected more?” question (its about as fruitful as calculating if men or women have it worse in terms of sexism).

          What I was talking about was why Bay Area Guy is rubbed the wrong way when a woman tells him not to take rejection personally. Actually I’m almost wanting to bet that the very “who gets rejected more?” question rises from the feelings of not wanting to hear from the other gender when it comes to dating rejection.

          By that I’m thinking that its that the argument over who gets rejected more didn’t spontaneously appear on its own but is maybe a manifestation of simply not wanting to hear what the other side has to say when it comes to dating rejection.

          • HA! I agree with you 100%. I thought you were responding to me, and as such, your questions were a bit confusing to me. You were responding to him, in which case, they make perfect sense.

    • Bay Area Guy: You might want to check out RSD’s YouTube videos (Tyler/Julien) about handling rejection….

      Women have the right to reject you… It doesn’t necessarily mean you are deficient in looks, personality, or charisma or whatever…. She’s just not feeling it from you at the moment…move on…

      Perhaps hearing that from a guy is more acceptable to you than hearing it from Alyssa… Because truly, what she says is no different from Tyler and Julien, who are master PUAs….they might call your attitude “chode-like”….

  2. An awesome piece! In all humans lies the predator and the prey. We need to teach our children (all genders) to look out for predation and to stand up for each other, while allowing them to actually discover and own their own pleasure and sexuality. Clearly, a difficult task right now.

  3. Thank you.

  4. I’m pretty sure I’m about to go off the radar here.

    It seemed like at the start of the post you were pointing out how male sexuality was assumed to be a threat in a much larger sense than what is really is true (because as you say regardless of the message only a small portion of men overall are actual predators and rapists). I was expecting this to be a call to stop buying into the presumptions and actually listen to men and that is there. However in the end even with the call for us to work together it (especially the list) still sounds like “men, you need to do these things in order to earn our trust and for us to believe they have something worthwhile to say”.

    Going back to the comment you quoted:
    Cis men are also in the position of the cultural desirer, never the desired; many genuinely believe that since “no one” finds them sexy/since their sexuality is considered threatening, no one wants to hear what they have to say about sex.
    Well it goes being genuine belief, its lived experience. I’m curious as to why they put quote marks on no one as well.

    I know that sounds a bit blunt but I just didn’t know how else to get my concerns across.

    • Danny, it’s okay to be blunt, as long as you’re not making ad hominem attacks, which you’re not. 😉 You certainly don’t need to apologize to me for asking hard questions.

      It is a call for us to work together. If you look at the response of A Bay Area Guy above, he very quickly went to the place that women reject men, men don’t reject women. And at least appears to take that rejection personally, as if it is a condemnation of “him” rather than a statement of preference from a woman. As if he was entitled to her, if only she hadn’t rejected him. It’s a common trope, and a strange one. And it’s a very hard one to deal with because the anger, in and of itself, does feel threatening, it feels as if we are being told that we are doing something wrong, mean and hurtful by expressing our preferences. Moreover, that men are entitled to our attention and affections, and that makes it necessary for us to deflect – defend against – that entitlement.

      I fear that I am not explaining it well, but once we are in that place, our defenses are up, it’s hard for anyone to get in. Even a good match.

      So yes, I am saying that women need to understand that not all men are predators. But that to get there, a lot of men are going to have to step back and stop taking “rejection” personally, or affection as an entitlement. We all need to work together to help men understand that their “worth” in the world is not related to sexual conquest. And that we all get rejected sometimes, and it’s okay.

      As for why Sabrina put quote marks on “no one,” I can’t speak for her. I don’t know. But I, personally, interpret it in the same way that I interpret Bay Area Guys assertion that women are never rejected. A lot of people will say “no one wants me” when they are rejected by a handful of people who they fancied. Once someone internalizes rejection to that degree, it is an all encompassing perspective that is hard to get out from under.

      • Bay Area Guy says:

        As if he was entitled to her, if only she hadn’t rejected him.

        How many times do I , Marcus, and other male commenters have to say this?

        Feeling frustrated or taking it personally when you get rejected does not mean you feel “entitled.” Really, what is it with this obsession with “entitlement?”

        How about those women who expect a high earning, perfect gentleman of a man, and when they have trouble finding him, write articles in Slate, the Atlantic, and similar publications about “where have all the good men gone?!”

        How about that “entitlement.”

        • Alyssa Royse says:

          I agree that it is also entitlement when women think they should just “get” a high-earning, hot dude etc…. Totally. I think that both men and women feel “entitled” to the Prince Charming / Princess happy ending that we’ve been sold.

          I agree that it is not “all” entitlement when men take rejection personally. Sometimes it just personally sucks. However, when men say they aren’t getting the girl because she was dismissive in rejection him when, obviously, she should have wanted him, that’s entitlement. It’s a subtle difference, but bears repeating.

        • “Really, what is it with this obsession with “entitlement?””
          It’s a way some women try to shame men for feeling frustrated that they don’t get success in the dating arena. Or it is a way some women misunderstand men feeling frustrated.

          If a woman rejects a man, he has every right to feel frustrated and angry. That’s normal, it’s called life, you wanted to date this person and they don’t want you and that is a disappointment. If it happens often then it becomes quite soul-crushing. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. He isn’t pissed off at her specifically, he’s pissed off at LUCK, pissed off at his attractiveness, etc. It’s fucking annoying being single, asking someone out and not getting any luck because each time reinforces any negative feeling of yourself and it means you aren’t lucky enough yet. If he’s getting A LOT of rejections then it can definitely play havoc on the confidence because each time he has more proof that an individual didn’t like him in that way. How is that not frustrating and not something that would make a person angry?

          I am really surprised more women do not grasp this concept of men, there wouldn’t be many saying entitlement if they really took the time to think it through. If a man starts to call you a bitch for rejecting him then you can talk about entitlement, but if he’s simply just angry then IT’S NOT ALL ABOUT YOU. Ever had a day where everything goes wrong? Then you find your tyre is punctured? You’d be angry. Now imagine a guy mustering up the courage and regularly being rejected, each time the message is “this individual woman does not like you that way” and that slowly adds up to being more like “women do not like you in that way”.

          He may be angry with the individual woman who’s been leading him on, treating him as more than a friend but stringing him along, flirting and crossing boundaries of friend and lover then rejecting him when he asks her out. He has every right to be pissed off at her, she’s fucked him around or he’s interpreted it that way. It’s normal to be annoyed and has nothing to do with entitlement. When someones actions point to them wanting X but they then want Y then it’s confusing and annoying not to mention feels like they’ve just lied. He may misunderstand her intentions in which case it’s a matter of them both at fault for communication issues. And if she knows he likes him and flirts to keep his attention then she’s heavily at fault and he has every right to be pissed.

          Entitlement would be though that he expects her to date him simply because he’s nice to her, but if she’s leading him on and he expects her to be far more open to dating because her actions are indicating interest then it’s not entitlement. But I highly doubt entitlement is the basis of most anger in rejection, I’d say for most people it’s simply just anger at being lonely. I’m sure many women who don’t get hit on feel similar anger when they see guys overlooking them time n time again.

          • Archy, you summed it up nicely. Being disappointed, bummed out, all that is TOTALLY NORMAL! It crosses the line when it becomes “all women are this way” or, as you said, when guys think that they deserve her attention and affection simply because they were “X.” X = nice, hot, rich, popular, strong… pretty much anything. The only factor that decided whether or not a person returns someone’s affection is if that person wants it. Otherwise, we all have to move along and try to find a match – someone who wants us in the same way at the same time as we want them. It aint easy.

          • wellokaythen says:

            Archy,

            Oh, thank goodness. I was afraid I was the only one thinking this.

            “Entitlement” is the latest fashionable explanation, requiring no evidence and no thought. People, including men, do not only do things that they feel entitled to do. There are lots of motivations of individual behavior besides a feeling of entitlement.

            Actually, accusing someone of having a sense of entitlement says much more about the accuser than the accused. Saying men feel entitled is really just the flip side of saying that men should only act in a certain way if they are issued licenses to do so.(By whom, of course, is the big question?) It assumes that men need to get permission for everything they do. It reminds me of the Old South, where you might label someone as “uppity” if they didn’t do exactly what you expected them to do. Like poor people trying to vote and other horribly arrogant stuff like that.

            Some men act like they’re entitled because they think they have to have a license to approach women in the first place, so they give themselves all sorts of weird rationalizations. At heart the problem is the idea that men need licenses in the first place.

      • It is a call for us to work together. If you look at the response of A Bay Area Guy above, he very quickly went to the place that women reject men, men don’t reject women. And at least appears to take that rejection personally, as if it is a condemnation of “him” rather than a statement of preference from a woman. As if he was entitled to her, if only she hadn’t rejected him. It’s a common trope, and a strange one. And it’s a very hard one to deal with because the anger, in and of itself, does feel threatening, it feels as if we are being told that we are doing something wrong, mean and hurtful by expressing our preferences. Moreover, that men are entitled to our attention and affections, and that makes it necessary for us to deflect – defend against – that entitlement.
        But does Bay Area Guy have a sense of entitlement or is he confused and angry over something else? Also is it the mere expression of your preferences or is there something more malicious going on? I’ll agree that there are men out there that have this sense of entitlement. But at the same time I can’t help but notice that when encountered with guys like Bay Area Guy there is a quick leap to write him off as being angry over having his sense of entitlement go unfulfilled.

        So yes, I am saying that women need to understand that not all men are predators. But that to get there, a lot of men are going to have to step back and stop taking “rejection” personally, or affection as an entitlement. We all need to work together to help men understand that their “worth” in the world is not related to sexual conquest. And that we all get rejected sometimes, and it’s okay.
        I think something else that would help would be having more consideration about the feelings that guys have over rather than just writing it off as “it happens to everyone so its not a big deal.”. Guys are in a position where their sex lives is a defining part of their manhood, which of course sets us up for taking all that rejection personally.

        I think that before guys can be expected to get over all that rejection we will have to see that our sex lives are not a defining part of our manhood. (Sometimes I wonder if there is some confusion where people think guys will first stop taking the rejections personally and then they will see that sex life doesn’t equal manhood.)

        As for why Sabrina put quote marks on “no one,” I can’t speak for her. I don’t know. But I, personally, interpret it in the same way that I interpret Bay Area Guys assertion that women are never rejected. A lot of people will say “no one wants me” when they are rejected by a handful of people who they fancied. Once someone internalizes rejection to that degree, it is an all encompassing perspective that is hard to get out from under.
        Oh I know you can’t speak for her, that was just my own curiosity.

        As for the “no one wants me” thing I think that’s a bit of a tight rope walk. If he show interest in too many woman then its figured he’s just looking for any woman, not a special one. If she shows interest in too few women and doesn’t meet one then its figured he’s too picky.

        Now as for how that all encompassing perspective its a matter of how it develops. If I were to hear that from a 17 year old kid still in high school then yeah I wouldn’t put as much stock in it as if it were coming from a someone in their 30s who has actually seen the world a bit. When you have a little over two decades of turn downs/rejections/whatever you want to call them, then yes it stacks up.

        • Jonathan G says:

          Guys are in a position where their sex lives is a defining part of their manhood, which of course sets us up for taking all that rejection personally.

          Gotta disagree, Danny. It doesn’t necessarily have to do with our sex lives as a defining part of our manhood. Though it may shock some to hear it, men are people, too. We need to feel loved, appreciated and desired, too. We need emotional intimacy and human touch sometimes. And sometimes we need sex for the sake of sex, not a notch on the bedpost. Furthermore, in my experience, it’s the guys who need these things who are more likely to take rejection personally because they’re the more sensitive ones. The men who see their sex lives as a defining part of their manhood simply move along to the next woman after a rejection, because they’re just looking to get laid, so with whom matters to them much less.

          • I should have said that the male gender role sets guys up to be in that position but please allow me to disagree with your disagreement a bit.

            Of course men are people. Just as the guys that are looking for notches on the belt so to speak, guys who are looking to fulfill those needs you list will also move from woman to woman

            • Jonathan G says:

              Yes, fair enough, that certainly does plausibly explain “serial monogamists” who go from partner to partner seeking intimacy and fulfilment (but seemingly not knowing how to accept it).

            • I dig.

        • OirishM says:

          But does Bay Area Guy have a sense of entitlement or is he confused and angry over something else? Also is it the mere expression of your preferences or is there something more malicious going on? I’ll agree that there are men out there that have this sense of entitlement. But at the same time I can’t help but notice that when encountered with guys like Bay Area Guy there is a quick leap to write him off as being angry over having his sense of entitlement go unfulfilled.

          Yeah, I think there’s a tendency to just demonise male anger as well as male sexuality.

          And to Alyssa, I also really don’t see how we’re supposed to not take rejection personally. How is it NOT personal? You don’t have to blow up about it, sure, but really, how else are you supposed to take it? You make a personal overture to someone about whether they’d like to get to know you personally – and because you don’t look right (a personal trait) or smell right or act right or aren’t “confident” enough (all personal traits) , you get turned down.

          Saying “rejection isn’t personal” is like saying “partially pregnant” – it literally just does not make any sense.

          • ThomasM says:

            Well, one solution to deal with rejection is to dehumanize women. PUAs for example call the women they try to seduce “targets”. Though, I’m not sure if dehumanization is the right word. It’s more like the relationship between support hotline employees and their customers. They can’t agonize over every angry customers they talk to. They have to stay calm and friendly and not take it personally if the get treated unfairly by a customer. But this also implies not taking the customers too seriously.

            So maybe treating dating more like a profession is the solution for men. We try to keep the customer happy and if everything works out we get paid with sex, if not don’t we take it personally and move to the next customer.

            • Bay Area Guy says:

              So maybe treating dating more like a profession is the solution for men. We try to keep the customer happy and if everything works out we get paid with sex, if not don’t we take it personally and move to the next customer.

              Unfortunately, that’s what it’s come down to for many men. If forces you to take a cynical, machiavellian approach to dating.

              Until women start flirting more or better signaling their interest, this problem will continue unabated.

      • @Alyssa…

        “So yes, I am saying that women need to understand that not all men are predators.”

        MOST men are not predators.

      • FlyingKal says:

        Alyssa:
        So yes, I am saying that women need to understand that not all men are predators. But that to get there, a lot of men are going to have to step back and stop taking “rejection” personally, or affection as an entitlement. We all need to work together to help men understand that their “worth” in the world is not related to sexual conquest. And that we all get rejected sometimes, and it’s okay.

        I am also not buying this “entitlement” scenario. I think it’s a scapegoat explanation that’s been set up.
        IF a guy really had the opinion he is entitled to a woman’s attention/affection/whatever, then why would he take a rejection personally and internalize it, as if it is a condemnation HIM?
        IT JUST DOESN’T MAKE SENSE!
        (sorry for screaming…)

        Yes, I’m sure there are guys who think they are “entitled” to a woman’s attention. But those are not the ones we are talking about here, the ones who take rejections as a measure of their personality!

        Also, the double standard conveyed in messages like “Just follow your heart and be passionate about it!”, but then again “Don’t take it personally if it doesn’t work out!” is more than enough to make anybody nauseous..

  5. Bay Area Guy says:

    2. Ask women what they want, and listen to what they tell you. We are all different; we all want different things from the men in our life. Rather than getting lost in a frustrated guessing game, ask us. Listen to our answers. Tell us what you want, with words, and listen to our responses. Whether it’s sex or any other relationship, the best way to not be seen as predatory is to not act like a predator. And that means communication, not acquisition. Which, by the way, is also called consent. “Yes” is the safest word of all.
    3. Let us in, don’t lure us in. Lay off the cologne, the pick-up lines, and the games. Please. Trust that you do not need to trick people into wanting you. Trust that you are worthy, just as you are. And that you deserve someone who wants you for who you actually are, how you actually are.

    Alyssa, as I once said to you in a much older thread, your heart is in the right place, and I wish more women thought the way you did. Not being sarcastic even in the slightest, I genuinely do.

    However, the problem is that “being yourself” and being genuine doesn’t work for a significant portion of men. We’ve had to learn, the hard way, that most women are not interested in “yourself.”

    I know that I’m about to traffic in generalizations, but from what I’ve observed, a man’s success to women doesn’t have to do with how genuine, kind, reliable, or decent he is, but rather his ability to be a non-stop entertainment device. Maybe your dealings with people have been better than mine, but at least for my young, millennial generation, it seems that people (especially girls/women) have ADD, and need to be constantly entertained.

    If what I’m saying is wrong, the PUA/game industry wouldn’t be exploding. Whether or not their ideas about women are actually correct is beside the point. Their mere existence is indicative that there’s a real need for men in this area.

    • I think you hit on a truth about our narcissistic culture — everyone wants to be entertained. I’ve often felt that men only want women who entertain them (by the way she looks, how conventionally attractive and sexy she is, etc.) It’s a pretty universal phenomenon.

      I don’t think it started with Millenials though… Kurt Cobain touched on it 20 years ago when he sang, “here we are now, entertain us” in “Smells Like Teen Spirit.” He was being ironic — but somewhere in the ensuing years, the irony has disappeared and it’s just assumed that of course other people are supposed to entertain us at all times.

      I don’t know what to tell you. It often seems hard to find quality people.

      • Bay Area Guy says:

        It may not have started with millennials, but it sure as hell has gotten worse with them.

  6. I get it, and thanks. But that’s part of what I am saying. The whole game is screwed, and as a result, the players are getting screwed. We’ve told women they need to wait for Prince Charming, and as a result, men think they have to be Prince Charming, whatever that means at the time. We ALL need to opt out of the game.

    And I promise, not getting laid “right now” doesn’t mean you won’t find fulfilling awesomeness with a partner who doesn’t see you as a game, in the future. It just sucks to wait. Waiting sucked for me too, and I kissed a lot of toads. Until I decided to wait, for a guy who could just be himself, no bullshit, no games, no weird mating rituals…..

    As for women having ADD and needing to be entertained, I know a lot of women who say that about men “these days.” I think it may be more a reflection of our times then our genders. Really. None of which takes chemistry out of the equation, which is unpredictable, and necessary.

    Regardless, you don’t want a partner who doesn’t genuinely want you for who you are. That is a road to future unhappiness, as you can’t keep up the pretense forever, and you can’t go forever with needs unmet, and a self unvalidated.

    Sigh, I feel so lucky. But I have faith….

    • Bay Area Guy says:

      We ALL need to opt out of the game.

      On that we agree.

      Unfortunately, that’s not going to happen anytime soon. Certainly not while I’m still young.

      Which is why men like me either need to learn game, or start making travel plans to get out of this mess of a country known as the U.S.

      • Alyssa Royse says:

        I dunno, I kinda think that those of us who stopped playing, win. And slowly we show others that it can work. But then, I’m an optimist.

        • Bay Area Guy says:

          We all need to stop the game

          Okay, but as a guy, how can I “stop the game” without resigning myself to a lifetime of involuntary celibacy?

          Men have no choice but to play the game.

          • Legal brothels maybe? It’s not a great fix but may help.

          • Alyssa Royse says:

            You always have a choice. ALWAYS.

            There are plenty of people who don’t play the game, and find love / sex and a future. But ya, as long as you are attaching your self-worth to sexual conquests, you’re going to have to play the game. So I think that’s the first thing to let go of. And we, all of us, this society, have to do a better job of making it clear that sexual conquests do NOT define a man’s worth as a man. That is how we have messed this up for men. And we have to change it.

            • But Alyssa.

              There is a big difference between a guy seeking out a partner because he wants a partner to share life with and a guy seeking out a partner because he thinks need one to be considered a man.

              I agree that getting rid of the idea that a guy has to have a partner to prove that he is a man would do a lot of good but obviously this would be of little comfort to guys that just want to find a partner and are beyond trying to prove their manhood.

            • Alyssa Royse says:

              That’s certainly true. But it doesn’t change anything tactically. I wish it did. Like we could all get a Seal of Approval that we’re ready and worthy and not trying to prove anything, then go into the members-only partner store. If I could find a way to do that, it’d be on the market in a week.

            • Maybe I’m missing something in what you’re saying here but I think it does change the way those people would be reached out to.

              If you talk to guys that are just looking for a partner as if they are only it for prove their manhood then it shouldn’t be a surprise when the advice is not received too well.

            • Jonathan G says:

              There are plenty of people who don’t play the game, and find love / sex and a future. But ya, as long as you are attaching your self-worth to sexual conquests, you’re going to have to play the game.

              And there are plenty of people who don’t play the game, and don’t find love/sex. So yes, you always have a choice, but choices have consequences. And some of the consequences have nothing to do with mixing up your sense of self-worth with sexual conquests. As researchers delve more and more into the science of loneliness, they have identified more and more the negative consequences of not having intimate connections with other people. In my experience, so many men pursuing romantic relationships are seeking more than just notches on the bedpost.

            • Alyssa Royse says:

              I FULLY agree that the absence of intimacy has myriad detrimental effects on people. But sex and intimacy are not the same thing. And, by definition, game-playing is not an intimate act.

              I also agree that a life without sex is probably a real bummer for those who wish to be having sex with other people. But sex and intimacy are still not the same thing. One using sex to get intimacy is likely to be very disappointed indeed. That’s at the root of many “I don’t get it, I have a partner, why am i still lonely?” queries. Because sex and intimacy are not the same thing.

              Broadly speaking, intimacy is a connection with someone that may or may not include sex, but inherently includes a level of unfettered, unfiltered, honest and open communication based on a genuine understanding of what makes someone who they are. I have intimate connections with people who I never have and never will have sex with.

              Sex is infinitely possible without intimacy. That is probably far more common.

              So, while I agree with what you are saying, it is important to a) understand that sex and intimacy are not the same thing, b) be clear about what you want and why as you seek it from other people and c) not hold other people responsible for your own happiness.

              None of which changes the fact that it sucks to be alone when you don’t want to be. But knowing what you want from relationships and why will make it easier to get.

            • I think your article is both well meaning and contains good advice. Opting out of the game is more is less dating advice and more life advce, which if followed leads to the more valuable but far less titlating wisdom to acquire.

              I think the advice can be useful if someone is willing to completely accept that their dating luck may not change at all after following it. The potential payoff is more likely about self respect and peace of mind, which can help a person’s dating life, but won’t necessarily.

              A couple of criticisms regarding specifics.

              -Even though he may not do so well dating, dating may be a man’s best may be his best chance at any sort of intimacy. Women typically (not always) are better at staying connected to family and friends, and rely less on their primary relationship for intimacy.

              -Men who struggle to get a date or get anywhere in a relationship probably don’t get hit on at all. Getting hit on at all vs not at all makes a difference, although perhaps less than many men think since much of the hitting on isn’t desired.

              -The message that a man (or woman’s) worth is tied to their desirability is pervasive. It would be nice if it weren’t but that mesage is insidious and can’t be wished away. It adds some weight to the pain any lonely person feels.

              Having said all of that, your advice is still good. It’s good because it gives a person’s self respect and peace of mind a high priority.

            • I FULLY agree that the absence of intimacy has myriad detrimental effects on people. But sex and intimacy are not the same thing.

              I have a word for non-sexual intimacy: friendship. It’s a wonderful thing, and possible with lots of people at once even if you’re monogamous, but none of my platonic friendships (or family relationships, if you want to include those) address my need and desire for sexual intimacy. I can’t have sexual intimacy without sex. I don’t know if you ever read my seed crystal piece from a while back, but in it, I wrote:

              For me, sex is an emotional seed crystal. When I’m happy with the kind and amount of sex I’m having, all sorts of positive emotions that don’t seem tied directly to sex have a way of crystallizing around it. With enough sex, I feel happier, more confident both generally and in my marriage, more patient, and more likely to feel like an all-around good guy.

              Insufficient sex is also a seed crystal, but for negative things. If I’m having no sex or not enough, my happiness is limited when I can feel it at all, I get more insecure in general and in my marriage, I’m more cranky and irritable, and more likely to feel discontented and annoyed with the world.

              I didn’t specifically use the word “intimacy” there, but part of my meaning is that in a more-than-friendship relationship, sex IS required for intimacy. (Speaking only for myself, but also not thinking I’m unique among men to feel that way.) It’s not an exact overlap where the sex is the intimacy, but I can’t achieve or feel intimacy without sex, unless we’re just talking friendship. And none of this is about just finding friends, right?

              What’s confusing to me is that I know you are a sex-positive, more-good-sex-for-everyone kind of person, even to the point of being a Sex Educator, which I commend you for, but this comment strikes me as one of those “You don’t need sex to live, so get over it and seek intimacy, which you do need” kind of things. I concede sex isn’t required for survival in the sense that air or water are, but what’s so wrong with someone thinking it’s required for happiness or intimacy? The message I’m hearing in this comment, whether it was the intended one or not, is that we (men) just want sex too much, when what we should be wanting is intimacy. That feels to me like a negative judgment (albeit a common one) about male sexuality, because it’s saying sex isn’t what we think it is, and we should think of it more like women do. That is, male sexuality would be better for both us and you (women) if it were more like female sexuality. It’s like Henry Higgins in reverse.

            • @Marcus…

              Great explanation Marcus. You have made it crystal clear just how sex (or lack of sex) impacts many men, myself included.

              Cheers!

            • I actually agree that in a long term relationship, women need to understand how important sex is to men and we need to try to make it a priority in the relationship, even if we aren’t feeling particularly horny. I think some women may think “ugh, he wants sex AGAIN!” without considering that he’s not just scratching an itch (which is often what women think) but also fulfilling his needs for emotional connection. I’m not saying women must have sex as their wifely duty, but just recognize that his desire for sex is important and if you want a successful relationship, you have to be open to meeting each other’s needs.

              At the same time, I think many men seem to have no other way to achieve emotional intimacy except through sex, and therefore sex and how much sex they are getting and whether this woman will have sex with them becomes an obsession. They put all their eggs in one basket so to speak. They approach every new woman with the idea of sex first and foremost, then they are frustrated and angry.

              The whole issue of women giving more sexual “access” is interesting to me because on the one hand, men wish women would hand out sexual favors more easily and in a less discriminating fashion, but on the other hand, women who have sex with too many guys are still viewed in a very negative light.

              I don’t have a solution, and in fact it seems unsolvable at some level.

            • Jonathan G says:

              Very well put, Sarah. I think you’re spot-on that many men have no other way to achieve emotional intimacy except through sex, and that’s very sad because it doesn’t always have to be that way. Aside from emotional intimacy with female friends, American society has always offered men a few havens to find emotional intimacy with other men, such is in a foxhole, on the playing field, through hobbies or through alcohol. I think our society is changing, and I’ve found men around me more receptive to emotional intimacy than the stereotypes would suggest. (It’s just that I have to go first in order to get them to open up.)

              But I’d like to add one thing that so many men can only get through sex: touch. Physical intimacy with a sexual partner is just about the only way that a lot of men can get their need for simple human contact fulfilled. Women touch each other all the time (more or less depending on cultural variations by region), but men touch each other rarely, and often with discomfort. Women might touch men in day-to-day interactions but, I think, not so frequently because (looping back to the original topic) men are sexual predators and he might get the idea she’s coming onto him, and it seems men don’t touch women for fear of making them uncomfortable for that reason.

              It sounds silly, but touch is a very fundamental human need, and for a lot of men, the only way to get it is through sex.

            • How do you get emotional intimacy apart from sex that is fulfilling? I have deep n meaningful convos with my friends but that feels absolutely nothing like the warmth of skin to skin contact during sex or even a cuddle. Even cuddles have nothing on the pleasures of sex I find, with sex I feel like I am at the peak of human happiness and all of my senses are in overdrive firing like crazy and it’s just bliss. Hugs feel nice but are nothing compared to a good time in bed with someone you desire bigtime….

            • @Sarah…

              “…. less discriminating fashion.”

              That would solve a lot of problems.

            • @Jules, there is a word for women who are not discriminating about who they have sex with.

              When I look back on my life, from the perspective of my 40’s, I would love (in fantasy anyway) to go back to my 20’s and have mre sex. I would have loved to be fully empowered in those days tomhave different sexual experiences with a variety of men. In retrospect, there was probably a lot of interesting men I could have had sex with (and I was a nerdy, plain looking girl — a really hot girl could have sex with practically anyone). Instead, I was convinced that I could only have sex with a serious boyfriend or otherwise I would be a total slut. And being a total slut seemed like a very bad thing. Honestly, it still seems like a bad thing to me because it can completely destroy your prospects of having a relationship when you want one (what guy wants a woman who has slept with dozens and dozens of other guys)?

              until a majority of men are COMPLETELY okay with the idea that their wife or girlfriend has a sexual past that includes lots of casual sex with many different partners, it’s just going to be impossible for women to be completely uninhibited in that area. (Even setting aside other fears like pregnancy and STD’s). Society has become more liberal in that area but I still read a lot of comments, whenever there are articles about this topic, from men (including young men!) complaining about women being too slutty.

            • Bay Area Guy says:

              @ Sarah

              I think the reason why so many men resent slutty women is because of the ease at which most women can be sluts, whereas many men struggle just to find any kind of sex or intimacy.

              I too used to think that the whole stud vs slut dichotomy was unfair, but that was because I presumed men and women could acquire sex equally, which is definitely not the case.

              As the Australian comedian Jim Jefferies once put it:

              It’s f**king easy to be a slut, it’s f**king hard to be a stud. To be a stud, you need to be witty, charming, well dressed, have a nice car, and a fake job. To be a slut, you just have to be there

              (my emphasis)

              I can’t speak for all men, but I guess you could say my aversion to sluttiness has more to do with “why does she get to have her fun while I’m lonely?” than any hostile attitudes towards female sexuality.

            • Sarah is right.

              The risk of slut shaming and rape is much lesser when a guy is hot and popular.

            • @Sarah…

              “At the same time, I think many men seem to have no other way to achieve emotional intimacy except through sex, and therefore sex and how much sex they are getting and whether this woman will have sex with them becomes an obsession. They put all their eggs in one basket so to speak. They approach every new woman with the idea of sex first and foremost, then they are frustrated and angry.”

              Yes, there are many men who achieve Intimacy through sex. However, it is not the only way as you say. Cuddling, holding hands, kissing, and hugging are also other ways.

              I think when a man is sex starved, it does become an obsession. Just like a person who is starved due to lack of food. Food becomes an obsession unless that person has a food addiction.

              When a woman reduces or shut off the sex, I find it difficult to want to want to kiss, cuddle, hold hands, hug, etc.

            • ThomasM says:

              Women prefer sexual experienced men as sexual partners. Sexual conquests don’t define a man’s worth in society in some abstract way. They define a man’s worth as potential sexual partner for women. Sexually inexperienced, unsuccessful men are unattractive to women as sexual partners.

              So unless women change their preferences men have a strong incentive to play the game.

            • @ThomasM

              You are absolutely correct.

              This is why most women like playboys, womanizers, and do not care how many women a man has slept with. Why look at Jesse James. There is line of women waiting to fuck the guy.

              But, the problem is women just will not be open and honest enough to say it. So, until this issue is honestly addressed, this article is just disingenuous.

              Nothing is going to change EXCEPT men. More and more men are simply going to start playing “The Game”, using porn, escorts, AND eschewing relationships, be they long tern or short term.

              So, in my view the current behavior and preferences will have negative long term consequences for both men and women. Women will NOT be able to get men to consider ANY form of long term relationships.

            • Hi ThomasM

              When you spread idea like that you only reinforce myths about women that harms both men and women.

              You are not a woman,and you are not qualified to tell all the world what all women want.

              When you advise other men this way you push men to go out and penetrate as many women they can find. As if that gives a man qualifications as a lover. That is silly and it is stupid!

              Women can NOT see how experienced a man are sexually when they meet. Women are not psychic. We are attracted and fall in love,but we are not psychic.

              We see something ,we like something about the man. We can NOT see if he is sexually experienced or not.

              You have not a clue about what women see and what makes us fall in love and want to make love.

              Some men are comfortable in their own skin and relaxed around women,and many women like men that are relaxed. This has nothing to do with being sexually experienced. And any man that lives in involuntary celibacy can work on his ability to be close to a woman, emotionally in a relaxed way. It is not easy,but your strategy is not good advise.

              And your analyses of women , and your attutides towards women makes me wonder what social circles you have your friends in. It is cynical.

              This is not helpful ThomasM.

            • ThomasM says:

              I don’t believe my view on women is cynic, I believe it’s realistic. I worked for years in the nightlife industry and observed human mating behavior in action. In my experience, men who are already successful with women become more successful. Some men, on the other hand, are almost invisible to women and can only hope to get lucky once in a blue moon.

              It’s like a self perpetuating cycle. I don’t have any explanation for this phenomenon, it is just something that I’ve observed many times. It has very little to do the character of the sexually successful men. Surely, a lot of the guys who are good with women are charming and decent, but I also know enough assholes or even downright dangerous men who get a lot of female attention.

              Maybe this is about intra-female competition for men. If some women take interest in a man he becomes more interesting to other women, almost like a luxury handbag. It’s doesn’t really matter if the handbag is excellent made or practical or pretty. What matters is that it’s popular and other women will envy you for owning it.

            • Joanna Schroeder says:

              Please do not base your ideas about women upon women in nightclubs!

              Yuck!

              I have been to a few, I hated every second of it and you couldn’t pay me enough money to go back. That is a self-selecting sample. Go to a book club, night school class, knitting club, I don’t know! – Something else instead. Diversify your experience!

              What if I were basing my experience of men upon what I’ve seen in nightclubs! PUAs and frat boys!

            • Bay Area Guy says:

              Please do not base your ideas about women upon women in nightclubs!

              Yuck!

              I have been to a few, I hated every second of it and you couldn’t pay me enough money to go back. That is a self-selecting sample. Go to a book club, night school class, knitting club, I don’t know! – Something else instead. Diversify your experience!

              At last, we reach a point of agreement!

              I avoid the club/bar scene like the plague. Full of pretentiousness and inflated egos.

              Plus it reinforces female advantage in courtship, since men HAVE to cold approach if they want any results.

              A hobby allows you to partially circumvent these conventions.

            • @Joanna…

              The same kind of behavior exhibited by many women in clubs is conducted outside of clubs too! The only difference is the venue.

              Women still go home with thugs, degenerates, bikers, djs, sociopaths, Rent-A-Rasta, etc whether they meet in a club, PTA, a public library , park, night school, a private party, church…..

              The one thing I have learned about many women is: they always do what THEY want to do and fuck whom they want to fuck.

              As a man you have some choices: 1) You can not give a damn and just fuck em and leave them, 2) Opt out altogether (give up basically), 3) Maintain your principles and refuse to play the game, 4) Just find a woman to enjoy a FWB deal and call it a day.

              At the end of the day, I am just not sure if it’s really worth all the grief and aggravation.

            • Jules, honestly, I read your comments and I have no idea what you are talking about because I just don’t know any women like that. My friends, going back to college, have all dated and married decent guys. Just thinking of my handful of best friends, their husbands/boyfriends include 2 computer engineers, an organizational psychologist, an aircraft mechanic, an immigration lawyer, and a bacteriologist. as far as I know, none of these guys have ever been to prison or ridden a motorcycle.

              You and I must be in different social circles or something, maybe it’s because I’m a nerd and my friends are nerdy.

            • it’s strange that you would mention “book club, night school class, knitting club” because these are all the types of places we’ve been told in the past that women go to enjoy the activity and not worry about having to be bothered by men all the time. So how are men supposed to meet women doing these things when we are frequently told on GMP that women aren’t always looking to meet people so we should just leave them alone when they are out and about. You in particular have mentioned how much you dislike men hitting on you when you are out doing various things.

              So yes, I will accept his experience that he saw in nightclubs for how many women go about dating.

            • Joanna Schroeder says:

              I’m not saying to go there to PICK UP on girls. But rather to meet women who aren’t nightclubbers.

            • “I’m not saying to go there to PICK UP on girls. But rather to meet women who aren’t nightclubbers.”
              How the hell do you meet someone to date then? If you go there to meet women and then become friends, then try date them then wouldn’t some assume you went there just to pickup chicks and that you’re being friends just to get a partner?

              Personally I think just do the activities you like, try your luck if you want and be respectful if you ask someone out.

            • ThomasM says:

              You make it sound as women in nightclubs are a highly selected group. But, in my experience, it’s quite common for young women to go out to dance.

              I believe the dynamic, I described, is the same for other venues where people look for partners. In the drug- and alcohol-fueled nightlife it’s just more extreme.

      • Well that’s quite counter productive. We all need to stop the game, but since you don’t think people will, you keep playing it…and in playing it, you perpetuate it and continue to create a culture in which people feel like there is no other option.

        Can’t just talk about wanting the world to change…we gotta BE the change.

        Anyway, I know a hell of a lot of people who don’t “play the dating game.” Actually, I think all the myths and bad media and what-not surrounding dating are actually quite divorced from the actual realities of dating. That’s part of the point of Alyssa’s article, really. We talk about dating in this predator/prey model and so it affects all of us negatively…but in reality most people don’t actually fit into this model.

        • Jonathan G says:

          Swords and ploughshares, Heather. The first to beat his sword into a ploughshare will be at the mercy of those who have kept their swords, so who’ll go first? It only works when everybody makes the change together. The predator/prey model does affect us all negatively, but a man who opts out of the game, who tries to be the change, runs a significant risk of condemning himself to a life of involuntary celibacy. It’s a hell of a choice, and I can’t blame any man who decides it’s not worth the risk. This kind of change needs everybody to move together.

          • wellokaythen says:

            We could start with the Nielsen ratings. Stop watching all those TV shows and movies where men are predators and women are the prey. That’s an incredibly huge share of TV plots today. Spend your money and attention elsewhere. That would put pressure on the major networks, not to mention the Lifetime Channel, to change some of their programming. Hollywood and the TV networks seem to think we love to hear about men preying on women. They must be getting that idea from somewhere…..

            • Wellokthen

              You are right
              Some of women’s fears comes from the films we watch,and even the crime literature we read.
              I have put away my television and go instead to the movie theater, theaters, opera…live performance.

              This is discussed now in my country because the crime novel has become so violent that people bring it up in our newspapers.

          • But . . . those who stop playing the game, who make ploughshares out of swords, will they really be at the mercy of those who kept their swords?

            I can only speak anecdotally (which I hope is a word), but the only success I’ve had with dating came as soon as I STOPPED playing games, and STOPPED putting up with people who weren’t into who I actually am. The moment where I stopped giving a shit is also the moment where it started working.

            • Indeed. How successful will you be at dating while you keep pretending to be someone you aren’t? Because even when it’s successful, you end up getting with women who aren’t actually interested in who you are. And that never ends well.

          • Come on, mate. I’m an openly queer woman who’s a vocal liberal feminist. Oh, and I’m a lady with an opinion…a hell of a lot of opinions that I won’t shut up about.

            So, not only do I opt out of the game…I am one of the people who busted out with a ploughshare and am constantly banging on to everyone around me that their swords really kind of suck. (Insert phallic joke about me being a queer woman talking about swords. lol).

            Seriously, though, what I’m saying is that there are plenty of people everywhere who are opting out of the game and are doing so quite visibly. Some by choice (i.e. men who reject the predator/prey model), some because they have no other option (i.e. me being a queer woman). One of the big problems with the predator/prey myth is that not only is it a myth that most men and women want it…it’s a myth that most men and women actually behave that way. You’re saying you can’t stop the game because there’s risk that if you do, you’ll end up alone…and I’m saying, that actually you’re far more likely to end up with a healthy, stable woman if you stop the game.

            • Hi HeatherN
              You are wise.
              Many of us have already opted out of the game.
              There is absolutely no reason to play this game any longer. It does not work,it is dishonest and we waste years of our life’s trying to master it.

            • Jonathan G says:

              Heather,

              The game I’m talking about is the “man proposes, woman disposes” model of dating and relationships, i.e. in which the men chase the woman and demonstrate their value and she remains cool and aloof until she meets the guy who makes her swoon.

              I grew up in a progressive area, so my childhood was steeped in the feminism-inspired messages of equal rights and that “women are people, too.” So when I was young and naïve, I logically applied that notion to romance and dating: I’m human, women are humans, we’re mostly alike, so of course they’ll approach it the same way I do, right? If I like her, I’ll let her know. If she likes me, she’ll let me know. If we like each other, huzzah!

              Due to the bountiful cornucopia of human variety, it even worked that way a couple of times when I was young. Not often, but often enough to validate my belief. And holy hell, did that lead to a lot of misery later, when I was plagued by the question, “Why does nobody like me?!” I went out, I did interesting things, I tried to “be myself,” meet people and have fun. I met lots of interesting female friends and acquaintances, but got no romantic interest.* It wasn’t until much later on that a male friend clued me in to the rules of the game. (And some female friends confirmed it for me.)

              In general, men have to put a lot of effort into pursuing women. It’s the pursuit itself. If I don’t pursue, women seem to think I’m not interested and/or not worthy, as if the pursuit validates their own sense of self-worth. They will not initiate, and will not pursue me. Once I figured that out, things started to make so much more sense. Once I started to pursue, I had a lot more success. I have since mostly given it up. Quite a few men from elsewhere have told me that the women in my city make the Herculean feats required to win their attention too taxing to make the pursuit worthwhile, and especially since I’ve learned to live happily alone, I’ve found that very true.

              So yeah, bountiful cornucopia of human variety and all, some people who give up the “man proposes, woman disposes” game do go on to find better partners as a result. I’ve seen it, and yes, the couples that result from such serendipity seem happier than many others. Good on them. But I know from my personal experience that, for straight men, opting out of the game is not a method to find a better romantic partner. It’s what you do when you don’t actually care whether you find a romantic partner or not. Indeed, I have a friend who was somewhat a ladies’ man when younger, but after his divorce nearly 30 years ago decided that a romantic relationship would be nice, but he’s happy single. And he has been mostly single ever since; no woman has pursued him.

              Back to my point, opting out of the game as a straight man carries a significant risk of living a single life. I can’t blame any guy who won’t opt out, for that reason. Since the game is a self-reinforcing cycle, it requires that everybody change more-or-less together. Otherwise, the men who opt out of the game just leave the field open for the men who continue to play.

              * Not true, actually. In hindsight, I can see that a few really wanted me to pursue them, but they simply would not initiate anything. It’s not that they were shy, their interest in me was contingent on the pursuit.

            • I think there is a lot of truth to what you say, but it’s complicated. I think women’s own insecurities also play into this dynamic. I rememeber many years ago, a friend set me up with a guy she knew. Our first date was kind of arranged by my friend. I definitely was interested. He was very smart and bookish (which I like), attractive and interesting. I believe I was the one who suggested getting together again. However, on both dates, he was very quiet and passive. I thought he was attracted to me but I couldn’t really tell. I think we might have had a third date that we mutually agreed on during date 2. Again, it felt very awkward because I wasn’t getting a lot of signals of interest from him. After the last date, II decided the ball was in his court. I decided if he wanted to continue to see me, he would need to make a move. He never called me and I never saw him again. I assumed he didn’t like me and wasn’t interested.

              So, there’s an example of a situation where I wonder, should I have pursued him aggressively or was I correct in deciding that if he was interested, he would call me? To this day, I don’t know.

            • Well, you called him for the other three dates, right? So, he had no reason to think a call from him wouldn’t be welcome. I find it a lot harder to make the first move “breaking new territory” in terms of the boundaries within that relationship if you like. That is I’d find it hard to initiate a kiss with a girl who hasn’t initiated a kiss with me, or ask a girl out who hasn’t at least said “call me and we’ll meet up”, mainly because I don’t know whether that is something she’d be comfortable with (I probably agonise too much about making the other party uncomfortable or putting them on the spot, as if life is supposed to be free of discomfort, and so I take the full burden of anxiety on myself trying to avoid passing any of it on – that’s my inner counsellor talking!) but I think once a behaviour is in the behavioural repertoire of your relationship, then the absence of that behaviour can’t merely be put down to shyness.

    • FlyingKal says:

      Alyssa,
      And I promise, not getting laid “right now” doesn’t mean you won’t find fulfilling awesomeness with a partner who doesn’t see you as a game, in the future. It just sucks to wait. Waiting sucked for me too, and I kissed a lot of toads. Until I decided to wait, for a guy who could just be himself, no bullshit, no games, no weird mating rituals…..
      How do you define “right now”? Today? This week? Ten years…?
      And what if, in the meantime, you don’t even get to kiss the toads, even if you have been “yourself” the whole time?
      (Is it just me, or does the toad reference suddenly feel much worse when applied to girls instead of boys?)

    • ThomasM says:

      And I promise, not getting laid “right now” doesn’t mean you won’t find fulfilling awesomeness with a partner who doesn’t see you as a game, in the future. .

      Women strongly prefer men who get laid over men who don’t get laid. Dropping out of the rats race for female attention is not really an option for most men, unless they drop out for good.

    • And I promise, not getting laid “right now” doesn’t mean you won’t find fulfilling awesomeness with a partner who doesn’t see you as a game, in the future. It just sucks to wait. Waiting sucked for me too, and I kissed a lot of toads. Until I decided to wait, for a guy who could just be himself, no bullshit, no games, no weird mating rituals [Emphasis added.]

      Welcome to Toadville.

      This quoted paragraph, though I think you were trying to be lighthearted, is full of “not getting it”. Again, I think you’re trying to, and I want to pat you on the back for that or even give you a thank you hug if you’re up for that, but this misses the mark.

      First, you describe “kissing a lot of toads” while waiting. I won’t bother trying to get elaboration as to whether “kissing toads” could be a euphemism for more action than just kissing, but even if you’re literally just talking about kissing a lot of guys that didn’t lead to any escalation in either physical or emotional intimacy beyond that, you’re describing a different kind of waiting than the not-getting-laid audience you’re talking to here. What you’re describing doesn’t sound like complete involuntary celibacy where getting laid was never even an option. It sounds a lot more like several opportunities which you chose not to pursue due to insufficient chemistry – or maybe you were even the one rejected sometimes – but at a minimum, there were opportunities and some kissing. You can call that “waiting” if you want, but it’s not the kind of waiting that involuntarily celibate men live with. It comes off as, “Kiss some toads and be patient,” which comes off as heartless because…

      We’re the toads. You know that awesome fireman cross-fit trainer you finally found? That’s totally awesome, but he’s not a toad. The pond this article finds itself in has a large toad population, many of whom never get picked up and kissed, whose croaks go largely ignored, and for a few lucky ones who do get kissed, are all too familiar with what it’s like to be put back down because hey, we’re just a toad, not some fireman cross-fit trainer.

      How does your toad advice go if we flip the gender of the Prince Charming narrative? Who exactly are the women toads, where do we find the ones that it’s okay to kiss while we wait for Princess Charming, and how compassionate is it to tell the pond full of croaking women that they just need to wait because look at me, I kissed lots of you before I found my lingerie model sports fanatic who plays D & D with me every weekend?

      It may sound like I’m bitter you found such a compatible and sexy match. I swear I’m not. I’m one of the lucky ones myself, and while I’m not married to a lingerie model sports fanatic, I dodged a life of inescapable toadness. I still remember and occasionally have that feeling, though, even as a married man, and the “Don’t worry about it so much” message, even though you mean well, sounds too much like a well-fed person telling a starving person not to obsess so much about eating, because it’s only food. It’s only no big deal if you have enough. Being told otherwise feels unempathetic (to put it gently).

      • Hi Marcus Williams

        This was well written. I am impressed.

        I also hope that on of the psychologist online on GMP reads this and gives you an aswer.
        They know who the women/ female toads are.

        But the story of all the women toads is a story different from from the male toads.
        It is a totally different life story and show how different men and women’s life’s are.

        Thank you for writing this Marcus Williams.

      • @Marcus….

        Very very lucid and well written depiction and contrast between female “toads” and male “toads.”

        Yes, women, in general, have more opportunities. It’s like watching the fishing competition where the guy lands a nice big fish only to toss him back into the water. That guy is like a lot of women.

        I think this is what is going on in the real world. It’s just that a lot of men NEVER land a fish, period.

        Thanks for this exceptional comment Marcus.

  7. Matthew says:

    I am not going to claim that there is no male privilege, however, like most generalities, it doesn’t encompass all men, even all white men. I was raised to be afraid of sex, very much the “sex is horrible and wrong and should be saved for someone you love” mentality. which is damaging to everyone involved. I waited until marriage to have sex, and I’m glad I did. However, several of the girls I dated, in high school and college, pressured me for sex and didn’t even consider the possibility that I wouldn’t want/be ready to have sex with them since “that’s all guys care about”. Me just saying “no” was never accepted, I had to give a lengthy explanation why not. I understand that there are many women in this same situation on a regular basis. I just want to give an example of how this mentality of men as predators effects men negatively as well. To this day, after several years of marriage to a wonderful woman who I love very much, I am still afraid to initiate sex (much to her disappointment).

  8. We need to start HEAVILY advertising just how dangerous some women can be to offset and show the more realistic view of the world in that women are not some innocent angelic creature that never abuses, we need people to understand that both genders do harm but the majority of people of both genders DO NOT HARM. If I say rapist, usually a male is the first thing someone thinks of. Usually they’re under the impression that 99% of rapists are men, that it’s near universally men harming women or men and that women are too pure, too innocent to do harm. Because that lady giving the advice to young girls how to say no SHOULD have given the advice to boys as well because girls DO abuse boys along with every other combination.

    Too often the focus for removing demonization of male sexuality is all about how to NOT be seen as a rapist but not enough of tearing down the stereotype of the angelic female. Women are not angelic, women are far more than 1% of rapists, women as a group do large amounts of damage to men (bad men do more yes but bad women are still significant in number). The innocence myth we portray women to be is very damaging because it allows a lot of abuse to go on unchecked and further makes men look predatory n dangerous because rape is seen as a masculine thing, not a human thing. I’ve been sexually groped by both genders, but innocence myth would lead you to believe that it’s only men doing the groping.

    Men grow up hearing how they need to stop hurting women, to be allies in the fight of (what’s the better word here?) violence against women yet are women also being asked to be allies in the fight of violence against men? I have NEVER seen women asked to be allies in stopping violence against men, EVER. Never seen them told to stop raping men. All this does is further reinforce the idea of men being predatory because we don’t talk enough about predatory females, we think of predators as the male in the bushes ready to rape n take our precious, delicate, innocent women whilst the men are rough n ready brutes. We CANNOT show men’s violence disproportionately vs women’s and expect the genders to be seen as equals, we’re just over-stating men’s violence whilst under-stating women’s violence. We also can’t show violent people more than the majority of people whom are not violent. It ALL needs balance. The average man is probably more likely to beat the shit out of a rapist than rape a woman. If I come across a rape and have the ability to do so I would be in there swinging and the cops would have to come save the rapist, I would be trying to get HER to safety (or him if it’s a male victim) whilst keeping the rapist away however possible. There is a reason why the term “white knight” exists as many men were brought up to be protective of women to the point that even if a woman is the abusive person and hits a man, another man who sees this will probably go after HIM to protect her.

    But as most abuse happens behind closed doors and out of sight it’s very difficult for men (or women) to stop others abusing. I have friends in abusive situations whom I have given lots of info to about Domestic violence, some have left with help from me, I’m sure most men and women are willing to help where possible or at least I HOPE they are…but sadly in nearly all of the cases charges were not filed by the victim against the attacker, so how can we stop the abusers without breaking the law? Abusers who grew up hearing that abuse is wrong, abuse is bad, but they still do it.

    • I think that highlighting the positive works much better, personally. We lead by example. Now, I have lots of problems with the examples we’re given. As I said in the original article (and everything I’ve ever written here.)

      I try very hard not to dwell in the anger and resentment, it isn’t productive. I try to push the positive. Either way, we are asking for major societal change. It aint gonna happen in our generation – no matter which generation you’re in. Our grandkids will, hopefully, reap the benefits of all this talking we’re doing now. But we just have to decide to go forward…..

      • Trouble is we’ve already heard the negative of men, very rarely the negative of women, if we simply go positives of both then the times bad does happen it’ll still be assumed it was male badness vs human badness.

        • Alyssa Royse says:

          Well, I tried my best to take a positive approach in looking at why demonizing male sexuality is fucking as all.

          • Thank-you for the article btw, it’s a good one. My argument isn’t at all against you, just society in being so silent.

          • And while the efforts are appreciated (seriously they are) I think this anger may be a sign that there is more going on than what can be addressed by simply being positive.

            • Bay Area Guy says:

              I think a lot of the anger comes from the fact that, in all these discussions about sex, relationships, and whatnot, whether it’s on this thread or NL’s newest article, many men (I include myself among them), believe that women are almost always getting a free pass in these discussions.

              Everything is always the man’s fault.

              I wouldn’t be so hostile to all the “take responsibility and change your approach towards women” messages if women weren’t simultaneously being let off the hook.

            • I can agree with that.

              I’ve seen articles of the, “Yes guys it does hurt but you can’t let it keep you down approach” persuasion and they are simply great at not letting anyone off the hook (oddly enough one great example of this is one of the NL’s articles here at GMP).

              However you have to be careful of articles that pretty much say that it’s all men’s fault or that the if the deck weren’t stacked in men’s favor so heavily everything would be fine because there’s a lot of them out there.

              I wonder if these articles where women get free passes are some sort of backlash at a perceived free pass that men have been given.

              Maybe all this cross talking and miscommunication can be boiled down to folks on each side thinking that the other side has it easier (aka the grass really is greener on the other side).

            • Alyssa Royse says:

              That, and people wanting to be “right” rather than happy. We are a culture set on “winning” to the exclusion of living, sharing, being happy, connecting, communicating…. it makes us all losers.

            • Oh, I know that. Very Well. I’m a sex educator, I work with all sorts of people. The anger is deep and real and terrifying. But, adding anger to anger just makes more anger. It’s math. Addition pretty much always makes more.

              I do spend a lot of time trying to get women to stop buying the game, but that’s not as much for this site, after all this is The Good MEN Project. I taught a dating and intimacy workshop last week and talked about this from both sides. I promise. I have been known to say that a man who wants to buy your affections is not looking for a partner, but a prize.

              I get that there’s anger. I get that NOT gettng laid sucks. I get that feeling alone, misunderstood, afraid, horny, rejected SUCKS!!!!! But I also know that buying into it doesn’t make it go away, and it never will. Behavioral change is the only thing that truly creates societal change and personal change. And that it is not easy.

              Then again, I went an agonizing multi-year stretch without sex when I opted out of the game. Ultimately, I found a partner who exceeded my wildest fantasies – and helped me come up with some new ones.

            • I’ll agree that one cannot get lost in a spiral of despair. A person has to be able to recognize the anger, feel the anger, and get close to it to really understand it and from there work on making those changes.

              The problem I see is that the anger gets misdiagnosed (which is why I really riled on about the entitlement bit earlier, because honestly I think that word is tossed around way too freely especially at men) or possibly even worse we’re expected to magically skip over it and pretend its not there and just go straight to making things right.

              But hey I’m just a guy that actually had a shot at becoming an actual 40 year old virgin (not just in terms of sex but in relationships as well).

    • wellokaythen says:

      Hell, even if women WERE only 1% of rapists, that’s still thousands and thousands of women rapists out there. I wouldn’t dismiss the issues that transgender people face just because they’re “only 1%” of the population. How few really is “too few” when we’re talking about people getting raped?

  9. Bay Area Guy says:

    I kinda think that those of us who stopped playing, win

    Yes, that’s nice, but…

    And slowly we show others that it can work.

    Key Word: Slowly

    Maybe you, Julie, and Joanna live in some parallel universe, but in my own lifetime, I have rarely if ever known or seen guys who were asked out by girls and women. The traditional dating norms are alive and well.

    And it’s not like I live in some regressive, religious right state where women are expected to adhere to traditional social mores.

    I live in the S.F. Bay Area, the liberal/progressive capital of the country. I’m also part of a generation that is supposed to be the most progressive in this nation’s history.

    And yet the more the things change, the more they stay the same.

    • Matthew says:

      I’ve seen women ask out/pursue men, but I have never been a part of the bar scene so I can’t speak to that. My romantic relationships have been almost exclusively with girls/women who started out as friends and for most of them, I was not the initiator. I admit to being a bit of a passive guy but I’ve also never been known for my good looks. I guess I just never understood the pick up or hook up culture in general.

    • Dunno if I live in a parallel universe. I was always assertive and direct and impatient so if I liked someone I tended to let them know. Sometimes it worked, more often I was told I was too much of a friend to date. Eh. I also met guys who got pissed if I asked them out first because I wasn’t supposed to. I’m 44 and lived in liberal southern (and one NWestern) cities.

      • Jonathan G says:

        Based on what I know of myself, and have heard from other men, my intuition tells me that these guys who turned you down because they ostensibly didn’t like assertive women asking them out were not 100% honest. I think what they really meant is, “I don’t like it when assertive women whom I am not interested in ask me out.”

        The flip side men’s anguished stories of romantic rejection are the anguished stories of women doing the rejecting. Rejecting people is hard, no doubt about it. Most people don’t want to hurt another person’s feelings, certainly not as badly as rejection hurts. So when you ask men out, and they’re not interested, you put them in the unaccustomed position of having to reject you. It’s icky, and they don’t have the mental scripts ready to deal with it because it happens so infrequently, so they say they dislike the whole experience of being approached. If you happened to luck into asking a guy who was interested back, I’ll bet he’d find a way to say ‘yes’.

        But then, that’s my intuition, and I wasn’t there to see it happen.

  10. Bruce K says:

    I was with the writer most of the way here until it came time for the “so what have we learned” ending, only to see the same tired, hackneyed, repetitious admonitions to men who want to be “good men”. That, and Steubenville. I’ve made a resolution that I will be encouraging anyone who is interested in fairness to make any time they hear ‘Steubenville’ mentioned: Mention the Duke University LaCrosse team as well. I would venture to guess that fully 50%, perhaps 75% of the members of that team will on again off again have problems with addiction, drinking and PTSD throughout their lives as a result of the false accusations which were made against these young men.

  11. Maybe its because I am male but it seems that the dangers of demonizing male sexuality are pretty obvious.

    Its a two part problem in which on hand as a male my manhood (or male adulthood) is heavily dependent on sexual activity with women but on the other merely trying to engage in sexual activity with women is seen as cause for alarm. It’s a catch 22 where I must engage in sex with women to prove that I am a man but by engaging in that sex I am showing that I am an untrustworthy predator.

    Then some things can make this tricky:
    1. A guy that is looking to have sex with and/or date women for reasons other than proving his manhood can get caught up in this and get demonized right along with the rest of the guys.

    2. A guy that’s not looking to have sex with or date women can be prone to being seen as trustworthy predators regardless of why they aren’t interested in that (namely men that are single past a certain age and especially gay men).

    (So basically by tricky I mean that guys get sucked into this regardless of what their desires may be.)

    The more focus on this we get the better.

    Thanks.

  12. Hank Vandenburgh says:

    I liked the article. I think one key thing is to pay very close attention to cues you get from women. My theory is that the woman is/should be the one who actually does the “hitting on.” But, our culture being what it is, women aren’t at all obvious about it. So availability is signaled by very, very small things. One relationship I was in, my girlfriend initially signaled her interest by showing up whenever I gave a presentation I gave in a grad class, even though she wasn’t taking it. This forces you to take the long view– most of my relationships, I knew the woman for over a year or two first. Being from the “sixties,” I was amazed when I learned that “predator/prey” language was even used for more or less normal sexuality, as far as I could see it.

  13. Mr Supertypo says:

    good article, thank you :-)

  14. Great article and a level of discussion that is so often missing in public discourse.

    That said, I do have one point of minor disagreement: Two of the three movies you hold up as examples in media of men luring women into sex are not examples of that psychology, at least not directly. Both Superbad and Anchorman satirize the idea that men have to make a huge gesture to trick the woman into love/sex/whatever.

    Yes, Spiderman is an example of the traditional perspective. But Spiderman is a form of the traditional journey of a hero, so it conforms to traditional standards built over thousands of years.

    No argument. I just think you should acknowledge the satiric voice along with the traditional story, and maybe the satiric voice is misunderstood as being traditional instead of cautionary.

  15. FlyingKal says:

    I guess I need some time to digest it all. Just a thought on this:

    But it starts that young. Yes, girls are told that boys are predatory and somehow out of control. The corollary there is that boys are told they are predators, and out of control. Therefore, not a desirable thing, but a thing to defend against. From the get-go, we are teaching our kids to fear male sexuality, and to repress female sexuality.

    I don’t actually think that boys (in general) are told that they are out-of-control predators, as much as they are told that noone will notice them or find them attractive unless they are the active/pursuer part…

  16. OirishM says:

    1. Be an ally. Help us stop the violence against women. I am assuming that none of you would do what happened in Stubenville, but would you have helped stop it? Have you been vocal about how wrong it was? About how that should not represent you or your sexuality? From a societal perspective, we need your help. From a personal perspective, when we feel safe, we let our guards down, and that’s the first step to an intimate connection.

    Why do I need to explicitly condemn something I wasn’t involved in, just because I’m male? I don’t go around thinking every girl I date needs to condemn Jodi Arias or Valerie Solanas.

    Do you realise how chuffing disheartening this is when we have to do this proving our innocence shtick as rule number 1 on the list? Would you treat it as good faith if we opened up our list with “Er, hey girls, rule number 1 – don’t be gold-diggers, k? And you should probably criticise them to us first, just to be sure.”

    This is just playing right into the hands of “male-sexuality = predatorial” trope.

    2. Ask women what they want, and listen to what they tell you. We are all different; we all want different things from the men in our life. Rather than getting lost in a frustrated guessing game, ask us. Listen to our answers. Tell us what you want, with words, and listen to our responses. Whether it’s sex or any other relationship, the best way to not be seen as predatory is to not act like a predator. And that means communication, not acquisition. Which, by the way, is also called consent. “Yes” is the safest word of all.

    How about just telling us? Women are as much the initiators of guessing games.

    In that sense, they engage in the exact same “predatory” behaviour, so it suggests to me the problem is not that men are being predatory but rather there is a prejudice against them that construes them as predatorial.

    In other words, the exact same thing the article you originally quoted was warning you about.

    3. Let us in, don’t lure us in. Lay off the cologne, the pick-up lines, and the games. Please. Trust that you do not need to trick people into wanting you. Trust that you are worthy, just as you are. And that you deserve someone who wants you for who you actually are, how you actually are.

    Why should anyone necessarily trust you over their own experience that says despite their best efforts, they aren’t worthy?

    This is just the “you’re such a nice guy! why can’t I find someone like you?” line applied to an entire gender, and it falls just as flat.

    4. Don’t take it personally. Your self worth is in no way connected to whether or not some girl (or guy) wants you. I am constantly telling people to “Consider Cilantro.” (Seriously, I need that on a t-shirt.) Some people love cilantro. Some people think that cilantro tastes like tinfoil soaked in dish soap. That in no way reflects on the worthiness of cilantro. And cilantro never takes it personally. If you can, don’t even think of it as rejection, you are just cilantro sometimes. After all, you’re not attracted to every person you meet, why would every person you meet be attracted to you?

    Again, for many guys they would settle for feeling like ANYONE is attracted to them. And it’s not much good telling people who (rightly or wrong) don’t have high self-worth due to their lack of relationship prospects “hey, have you tried not not having self-worth? I mean, herbs!” -_-

    5. And lastly,know that your body is beautiful. I, like most females, was warned that penises and balls and anuses were gross. I was told to hold my nose, close my eyes, get it over with. Imagine my disappointment when I saw my first penis and there were no festering boils hissing my name, no sulfurous clouds wafting up from a menacing member. I thought it was kind of cute. As I learned more about them, I grew to love them, in and out. Hell, there are times when I was sure I heard angels giving hummers on high when I’ve see one. Most of us straight chicks really like your bodies. You don’t need to trick us into liking them. That is what makes us straight, after all.

    Well, at least this list closed with one I liked.

  17. Hi Alyssa
    This was good read.

    As an outsider ,may I ask WHO teaches you these things :” I, like most females, was warned that penises and balls and anuses were gross. I was told to hold my nose, close my eyes, get it over with. ”

    It sounds like you grew up in a society many hundred years ago.

    Do mothers say this to their daughters? Do do aunts and sisters? I don’t think so.

    So who spread this attitudes and values?

    Is it women?
    Is it films, novels, school teachers, small kids? Who? The church?

    I am confused since this is the year 2013.
    What happened to the sexual revolution ?

    What strong forces in society wants this,and benefit from it?
    Is this religious teachings?

    • My previous believe is women find men bodies repulsive. Some of it come from my own mother, who said to me that ” no one want to see male body, male body is not beautiful to look, it repulsive. Its like a jeep, ugly to look but have power. Women bodies are beautiful, not like men ” . I remember felt really sad after hearing that. Sometimes I like to think that was just a joke, but after hearing it from many women who claim they are straight, I just get the conclusion that women just don’t like to see men bodies. Women want to touch and feel them but don’t want to see it. Or maybe because god made men bodies to be ugly.

      Do I live in society in centuries ago Iben? No, I live in modern age. And I hear it all the time from straight women. Women, mothers and teachers do teach this to their children and students. I bet my money there is no one single woman here who never said jokingly how male bodies are ugly and women bodies are made more beautiful once in their live.

      Its rather ironic that I learn how male bodies are beautiful too not from women, but from gay men. Gay men make the most touching appreciation for women bodies. Its super rare for me to hear women ( straight ) saying male bodies are beautiful. And before someone saying penises are gross, I’m not talking about genitals here, but male body.

      If we want to achieve equality in sexual relationship, its time for women to give up their privilege about being the fairer and more beautiful sex. Stop telling jokes how men bodies are ugly.

      • “Its rather ironic that I learn how male bodies are beautiful too not from women, but from gay men. Gay men make the most touching appreciation for women bodies.”

        I mean, Gay men make the most touching appreciation for men bodies

        • As a heterosexual male I have never felt more able to be beautiful or appreciated than when I have run across tumblr pages dedicated to the gay bear subculture, especially the “muscle bear” part of it. Which says something maybe not so good about how the genders communicate about beauty…

      • Hi John

        This was child abuse,emotionally. I do not like your mother.
        And I can assue you that many women in this world see a mans body as beautiful. A heterosexual women that see a males body as ugly is a damaged women.

        I rember vividly the first time I ” saw” the beauty in a grown mans body. I was ten,and was on the beach and saw a man standing on the cliffs near the water in small bathing trunks ( is that the correct world?). I can remember it to this day, the surprise I felt. I can fill a book with memories of how intens longing I can feel when I look at a mans body, and his skin.

        Parents can mess up our lives,and your mother successfully messed up yours.

        And you should not bet your money on silly ideas like that. You will end up in poverty.

      • Hank Vandenburgh says:

        I thank my lucky stars that we pretty much had a nudist household (in the 1950s unbelievably) until we kids hit puberty. Most people look great to me naked. Nowadays, someone would probably try to define that as “child abuse” or “predation” (?!?!?!)

    • @Iben….

      Great questions!..

      I love it that you always seek answers to observed phenomena.

      Yes, this stuff is taught to young girls early on by mothers, fathers, and others. Just look at how we treat male sex offenders versus female sex offenders in America. A woman get a slap on the wrist and a man is going to get 10 years in prison.

      What is very very sad is the impact this stuff has on young boys. I have a 16 yr old son and I am very concerned. But, on the flip side, the very men whom women should be concerned about are the very men a lot of women choose to hookup and consort with. It’s mind boggling.

  18. OirishM says:

    And lastly,know that your body is beautiful. I, like most females, was warned that penises and balls and anuses were gross. I was told to hold my nose, close my eyes, get it over with. Imagine my disappointment when I saw my first penis and there were no festering boils hissing my name, no sulfurous clouds wafting up from a menacing member.

    The anuses, on the other hand….

  19. The Wet One says:

    Excellent piece. Great message.

    That said, guys, get it through your head. This article is just an ideal. Be cynical and just pay for sex. It’s much easier, straighforward and without all the drama. Eventually, your game will rise to the occassion of dealing with non-pros, until then, pay.

    • Hi Wet One

      Here is another suggestion to men that accepts and support the instituions of brothels and buying sex.

      Why not become a male sexworker?
      You will get all the sex you want,day and night and even get paid for it.
      If you think prostitution is OK,then dive in and enjoy all the benefits.
      In Germany you can earn €2000 a night.

      All your sexual frustrations will be over.

      • The Wet One says:

        Quite right. Now, if only women valued sex as much as men and would actually PAY for it, you’d have a plan. As it stands, not so much where I’m at. The market isn’t there. As it stands, I have dipped my toe into the market in the past, but that’s some years ago. I now have my dear beloved Sweetie who keeps me plenty warm at night. It was, however, a mighty pain in the butt figuring out how to find her. In the interim, professionals keep my spirits up and educated me some on a few things here and there.

    • The Wet One says:

      Hmmm… Interesting. Here’s an article that kinda explains a thought process on this that is familiar to me. http://dissention.wordpress.com/2010/02/11/why-i-started-using-escorts/

      This article ties into Alyssa’s article in some ways. What treating men like predators does is cause men to do what the author of “why I started using escorts” because getting sex is otherwise too much of a hassle or incomprehensibly difficult. I know it doesn’t seem that hard to most people, but yeah, it really does to large number of men. This doesn’t describe all pooners, but it definitely describes a subset of them.

      Granted, professionals don’t fully satisfy one’s appetites, which I don’t think the author of the article I linked to has understood yet, but in terms of the sex part, they’re pretty good at fulfilling that requirement and they are so much easier to deal with. You pay your money, you get your sex. Easy peasy.

      • Amen Brother!

      • Are you trolling? I don’t think prostitution or escorts would fill the gap in my life during periods of chronic involuntary celibacy because giving pleasure to another human being is what I want. Naturally it’s not purely altruistic, I want someone who I feel attracted to too; but I don’t want anyone having sex with me for money, or for security or to be nice to me. I want mutual attraction and mutual pleasure giving. Prostitution and escorts would not give me what I want at all. To me that’s the extreme end of the sort of commodification of sex I’m against.

        • I should add; I meant trolling in the internet forum sense, and not in the polari sense. I wasn’t suggesting you were trying to pick up young gay men. :-) That would be an awkward misunderstanding.

  20. This may seem a tad nit-picky but this is the second time you’ve used the scene in The Amazing Spider-man as an example and both times you have described things that did not happen in the scene. Other than that I agree with the article and I think you make some great points about the demonizing of male sexuality.

    As for the scene, they are about to kiss and Peter pulls away because he wants to tell her he is Spider-man but can’t find the words. It seems she may be thinking he is rejecting her and she gently keeps asking him to tell her what is on his mind. She eventually gets frustrated, says “forget it” and starts to walk away. At that point he shoots her with the web and pulls her back in. Shooting the web was Peter using action to explain what he couldn’t get out with words. It wasn’t a grand gesture to win the girl, she was going to kiss Peter, not Spider-man.

    Here’s the scene:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMlQox6sxZQ

    Thanks for the article, I do enjoy reading your work.

  21. William says:

    So working together means laying the blame and responsibility solely at the feet of men ?
    as i don’t see anything on that list that pertains to what woman are gonna do.
    id’ be shocked at this article if it wasn’t the norm for this site.

  22. wellokaythen says:

    I read this as two articles that were grouped together, so I prefer to separate out the first part from the second part, because I really liked the first part and was turned off by the second part, for a lot of the same reasons as some of the other commenters. I’m not ready to dismiss the whole approach because it devolved towards the end. There are some good things here to salvage.

    The first section was about how society, and especially women, demonize male sexuality. It took a lot of guts to ask that question of the presenter at the sex ed class, and I think that’s very commendable. You deserve some praise for that, in my book. It’s also incredibly important, as you wrote, to note that demonizing male sexuality tends to go along with dismissing women’s sexuality. Those two stupid stereotypes tend to ride together like two horsemen (horsepeople?) of the apocalypse. It’s also extremely shortsighted for any parent or educator to think that teenage girls only have sexual encounters because of peer pressure, drugs, or coercion. At some point someone needs to point out that even some teenagers might have sex because it feels good.

    I was really interested in hearing much more about how much women are culpable in demonizing male heterosexuality and how you were going to encourage women to stop it, but then the article was back to the usual stuff about how men should stop raping women and stop trying to trick women. (All true, of course, and very zen in its simplicity, but not all that helpful.) I was hoping for some sort of follow-up after the speaker shut you down about how dangerous boys are, but it sounds like the sex ed scare tactics continued despite your question.

    Imagine how much courage it would have taken for a father to raise the subject of girls’ sexual enjoyment. Imagine how much courage it would have taken for a father to have tried to show up to that event with his daughter. There are men raising girls out there. I’m wondering what resources there are to help them navigate puberty sex ed issues. (And, to be fair, I bet many dads would be even more negative and frightful when they warn their daughters about boys. Demonizing boys is something that men and women both do, and women are not always the worst culprits about this….)

    The last section was at least accurate, and good advice as far as it goes. It did seem to take us right back to men-as-predators, though. By the end, the article sounded like this: “stop seeing men as predators, and men, here are some things you should do to not be such predators.”

    As for cologne made from panthers: forget about fairness or predation for a second. Think how the panther must feel about it…. : – )

    • great comment, mine said the same thing but it was censored because it wasn’t as diplomatic.

    • “I was really interested in hearing much more about how much women are culpable in demonizing male heterosexuality and how you were going to encourage women to stop it, but then the article was back to the usual stuff about how men should stop raping women and stop trying to trick women.”

      It is as if they (women) have zero culpability in this mess. It is so annoying to see how little criticism women have of other women’s behavior.

      This rape stuff is really getting on my last nerve. According to FBI stats rape is down 80% since 1980. Yet all you here is this continued banter about rape. Yes, there is violence against women. I do volunteer work for a homeless women’s shelter. There world is vastly different from the world of many upper middle class white women who have the time to delve into rape culture….

      As for the PUA stuff…I am sure its rise is due to the lack of success by man good and decent men with women. This lack of success is due largely to the highly restricted view of male attraction held by most women (until they want a husband). Then the man becomes sexually unattractive to her.

      It is just a giant mess. I am a black guy who feels very lucky. But, I have many white male friends and to see how they suffer in silence is really terrible. They are good men who are effectively told to wait. Wait until we women are done with the thugs, bozos, djs,….By then it’s 20-30 men later. Just not appealing at all. This is what women need to look at about themselves.

      • ScreamPhoenix says:

        You’re looking at rape stats from the FBI. REPORTED rapes. Most rapes are not reported.

        The current stats are 1 out of every 4 women will be sexually abused/raped in some manner.

        I am an example of this. I was molested at 4 and 12 (different family members), raped by 2 men at 16, another one at 25..And I didn’t report any of it. WHY? Because I thought it was my fault since it kept happening.

        I’m white. Not upper middle class, but middle. Rapists, and molesters, don’t care how much money you or your family makes.

        If the rape stuff is getting on your last nerve, then stand up for women. Don’t let your friends crack “rape jokes”. Don’t go to strip clubs/watch porn (80% of people in porn were sexually abused as children, why would you want to help perpetuate that cycle?)

        I don’t agree with everything in this article, as being sexually abused has made me fearful of men’s sexuality etc (hey, at least I admit it.. but I still love men and think there are good men out there despite my past).

        But why should your friends take it personally if women want to date “thugs, bozos, dj’s”? It’s not their problem. The women “just aren’t that into them” and they should find someone who is. But what if your friends slept with 20-30 women? Would that make them less appealing to women?

        • wellokaythen says:

          I’m really not trying to cause trouble here, I’m mostly curious from an academic/statistical standpoint:

          How does one estimate how many rapes go unreported? Is it just comparing the official police reports to the percentage of women who report on surveys that they have been raped? Does anyone know how this gets calculated?

          • ScreamPhoenix says:

            I don’t think you’re causing trouble. It’s a valid question, and one I’d like to research more myself. It is still an estimation, since it is the least reported crime. Also, this is just based in the US. In other countries it is much, much higher (like “developing”).

            Here is an example from the 1990s..https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/172837.pdf

            I don’t have time to read the entire report, but I did read that they conducted a national telephone survey (this happened to be violence against women, which includes rape). So I’d assume one way a study could be done is that way.

            I’d also like to guess that they get some stats based on what DCF finds when doing investigation on child abuse, or numbers provided by organizations like RAINN who people who can talk to anonymously about rape etc past or present. I am not sure though..

            I personally am friends with 3 other women who were molested/raped. That is over half of my close group. And we didn’t meet b/c of group therapy or something, I’ve known these girls since elementary, high school, etc. That is over half of my friend group, if you include me.

          • “How does one estimate how many rapes go unreported? Is it just comparing the official police reports to the percentage of women who report on surveys that they have been raped? Does anyone know how this gets calculated?”

            2 questions on a survey or more.
            “Have you been raped”
            “Did you report it to the police”

      • Mr Supertypo says:

        “It is as if they (women) have zero culpability in this mess. It is so annoying to see how little criticism women have of other women’s behavior. ”

        Of course women have their share of culpability it requires two to dance tango, its (IMO) 50/50. If I have to use a feminist perspective, I like to postulate that the lack of awareness or interest toward female responsibility fits well into the patriarchal normative. Since women are secondary or worthless the entire responsibility falls into the hands of men. Therefore all the feminist and pro-women horde in reality are agents of the patriarchy operating undercover 😉

        But since im not feminist, I will (naturally) not use that explanation, and opt for a alternative one (IMO more realistic) like shallow interest int the topic, people trying to gain women’s support for their own purpose, little or no intellectual work, Sunday charlatans to fill empty spaces in news papers or online magazines, and feminist gang members trying to climb the hierarchic ladder telling people (women) what they like to be told (populism). Just like the politicians, lots of complicated words large hand movements, good and elegant posture…and little or no or the opposite result. In synthesis, regardless the intentions they cannot be trusted. And I like also to claim that all research or articles that only focus on ONE side and lay demands on that SINGLE side only, is wrong, misleading and practically a waste of time.

        “As for the PUA stuff…I am sure its rise is due to the lack of success by man good and decent men with women. This lack of success is due largely to the highly restricted view of male attraction held by most women (until they want a husband). Then the man becomes sexually unattractive to her.”

        Yeah I agree 100% the P.U.A exist exactly to balance the dating universe, traditionally hostile toward males in mens favor. If the dating reality were more balanced, Pick Up artist’s would not exist.

        “It is just a giant mess. I am a black guy who feels very lucky. But, I have many white male friends and to see how they suffer in silence is really terrible. They are good men who are effectively told to wait. Wait until we women are done with the thugs, bozos, djs,….By then it’s 20-30 men later. Just not appealing at all. This is what women need to look at about themselves.”

        Careful with the generalizations, Im also a DJ and yes, it give me a upper hand in dating, especially with younger women but older or intellectually advanced women, usually roll eyes, and its game over (for me). Beside that all dj are different from each other. Some are hardcore party animals others do just enjoy their job. But I get your point. And from my experience just dont. Dont wait. If your experience tell you that women like that kind of men, then become that man. Or change dating group.
        As a DJ I can tell you, not all women are into the guys you mention, few are, but not everybody. And who does, usually they either are very young and inexperienced (and naive) or dysfunctional girls or adult women who hunger after a adventure. Either case they are not for you (general you) and they are not for me either. Just like some guys who morbidly go after one kind of woman like the slutty one (god i hate that word) or the lolita or the cougar, and overlook all the good females around him.

        • @Mr.Supertypo..

          Great commentary.

          “….. or adult women who hunger after a adventure.”

          There are more of these than you think.

          My philosophy on dating is quite simple. If I approach or meet a woman, I read her body language. If it tells me she has an interest, then I will continue the conversation. If it tells me she is not, then I move on to the next woman.

          There is not feeling of rejection. My taste in women is extremely broad. She just has to be a good human being. I don’t care if she is a size 6 or 16.

          Yes, I have a preference. Average looks, intelligent, great personality, and a nice ass. If she has those things, she has my interest. However, I am not into casual shit or serial dating BS. I love sex but I am not trying to rack up a bunch sex partners.

          • Mr Supertypo says:

            @Jules

            ” My philosophy on dating is quite simple. If I approach or meet a woman, I read her body language. If it tells me she has an interest, then I will continue the conversation. If it tells me she is not, then I move on to the next woman. ”

            and

            “Yes, I have a preference. Average looks, intelligent, great personality, and a nice ass. If she has those things, she has my interest. However, I am not into casual shit or serial dating BS. I love sex but I am not trying to rack up a bunch sex partners.”

            simple philosophy and good tastes, is the key to forward in life. Keep it up 😀

            • @Mr Supertypo…

              Thanks. The KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) principle.

              I have been seeing/dating a police woman for about 304 month . While she believes in equal opportunity for women, she does not consider herself a feminist. Her goal is one day become and FBI or Secret Service agent.

              She has ALL my requirements plus a excellent libido and genuinely likes me for the person I am. We get along very well.

            • Mr Supertypo says:

              Well you are better placed than most guys….but dating a cop? Not something I would do…but hey, she like you, you like her….the path is set. Good luck :-)

            • @Mr Supertypo…

              The path is set but for how long I don’t know. Women change.

              So I will enjoy her company as long as it lasts.

              Thanks.

            • @Jules

              Not sure about this comment ‘women change’ – don’t you think men change too>? I think that we are always changing – everyone. both genders…..

    • I read this as two articles that were grouped together, so I prefer to separate out the first part from the second part, because I really liked the first part and was turned off by the second part, for a lot of the same reasons as some of the other commenters.

      Agreed. I’ve been too busy the last couple days to sit down and gather my thoughts into a reply to this article, but this and similar comments have done a pretty good job already. Before adding my own critiques/objections to the list, I want to mention that in this case, I *really* do like the author, respect and believe her good intentions, believe that she sincerely loves and wants to help men, and on top of all that, is enjoyable to read. In this piece, though, I strongly agree about it having two parts – a first part that made me feel like not just a woman, but a *feminist* woman was getting it (“it” being how the demonization of male sexuality is bad), and then a second part where that sort of unravelled. Consider how the goals were introduced:

      So, how can we all work together to change our collective impression of male sexuality as something that is dangerous and disgusting? Besides the obvious—understanding male privilege, dismantling of patriarchal mythology and ending rape culture?

      Having spent much of the last two years becoming more familiar with what “male privilege”, “patriarchy”, and “rape culture” mean to everyday feminists – not just some fringe element – I find them to be core concepts in a framework which not only allows the demonization of male sexuality, but actively teaches it. (E.g., the hugely popular “Schrodinger’s Rapist” is practically feminist canon now, and I can’t imagine anyone seriously arguing that the net result of anyone embracing the message of that piece is to regard male sexuality as more healthy and less threatening than they did before reading it.)

      I, too, would love to end rape culture, but almost certainly in a different way from how you mean it. I assume, given your background and what I’ve gleaned from reading you, that you accept “rape culture” as an actual thing that exists as feminists describe it, so naturally that’s something any sane person would want to end. I regard “rape culture” as a myth manufactured by feminism, which:

      * Asserts a widespread tolerance and capacity for rape that does not exist in the real world.
      * Consistently lowers the bar of the definition of “rape” to include abundant examples of non-rape, which it then claims as evidence of how common rape is.
      * Overwhelmingly treats rape as a gendered problem with female victims and male perpetrators.
      * Leads almost inevitably, if believed, to the conclusion that male sexuality is a bad, scary, threatening thing.
      * Self-sustains as a theory through subjective validation (believers see it everywhere they look), and shields itself from critical examination by classifying non-believers as “rape apologists” who are “part of the problem”.

      I think the belief that “rape culture” is real, and that it’s the only allowable framework for addressing the problem of rape, is damaging in lots of ways, and one of those ways is how it actively perpetuates and exacerbates the demonization of male sexuality. I would love to end that. For me, that’s like saying I’d love to end people’s belief in Satan (who I don’t think exists), as opposed to saying, “We need to work together to resist Satan,” which is more analogous to what I think you’re saying when you say that obviously, we need to end rape culture. So from where I sit, it’s kind of like you said we, as a culture, demonize male sexuality (which I agree with) and then presented some ideas for how to stop doing that by making men’s sex less satanic, only you substituted a more literal demon – Satan – with a more academically fashionable demons called male privilege, patriarchy, and rape culture. Whether you’re a Bible-thumper convinced that lust is a mortal sin, or a slut walker convince that men who look at you feel entitled to have sex with you, either mindset seems guaranteed to lead to the conclusion that a man “possessed” by his sexuality is someone to be reviled and feared.

      • wellokaythen says:

        I like the Devil allegory. Here’s the sort of logic you’ll face in reply:

        The greatest trick Satan ever pulled was convincing people he doesn’t exist. If you deny the existence of Satan, then you’re essentially working for him. Therefore, denying the power of rape culture just shows how brainwashed you are by it. You’re obviously so caught up in your privilege that you can’t see your privilege, which is one of the definitions of privilege in the first place. You don’t see it, and that is therefore proof that it exists.

        Totally consistent, as with any perfect circle. Somewhat cultish in its airtight certainty, actually….

        • FlyingKal says:

          Wellokaythen,
          Thank you for this.
          Don’t want to distract from your great allegory (if that is the correct term?), but it reminded me about “The Bablefish and the proof of the non-existence of God” in “The hitch-hiker’s guide to the galaxy”.

          Man said, “Proof denies faith. The bable fish proves your existence, no faith required, and therefore you cannot exist.”
          -Oh, said God, “I never thought of that.” And disappeared in a small puff of logic.
          :

      • Bay Area Guy says:

        Whether you’re a Bible-thumper convinced that lust is a mortal sin, or a slut walker convince that men who look at you feel entitled to have sex with you, either mindset seems guaranteed to lead to the conclusion that a man “possessed” by his sexuality is someone to be reviled and feared.

        Yup, a few Clarisse Thorn types notwithstanding, they’re the new Puritans.

      • Well that’s just a good breakdown you have here Marcus.

      • Mostly_123 says:

        Powerful & concrete metaphor there at the end- it goes a long way to explaining why sometimes challenging someone’s notions of feminist ideology often feels like challenging someone’s relgion (and seems about as productive). Really agree with the whole analysis.

    • I do see this happen a lot – men warning women/girls about other men. They don’t seem to realise what they are saying about themselves. Fathers warn their daughters that all men will do anything to get them in bed, (instead of teaching them that SOME men/people are manipulative, and giving them advice on telling the difference). I’ve had several boyfriends say things like “men are such pigs” when we hear about bad male behaviour, and I just think “What are you saying? Are YOU a pig?” but of course it’s always OTHER men who are all manipulative, not them. I wonder how many men demonize other men to make themselves look better in comparison? When I hear men saying that all/most men are animals, it just makes me look at them and think “are you an animal then? Has all your niceness been a lie?”

  23. FlyingKal says:

    The article starts out with the assertion that “the only thing straight guys want to do is pound as much pussy as possible” is just an assumption.

    Yet, the rest of the article is spent on telling guys who have problems getting a partner, that their specific problem IS exactly that only thing they want to do is pound as much pussy as possible.
    And if you would just give up on that pursuit, well, you will actually BE able to pound as much pussy as possible!

    Isn’t that painting with a kind of broad brush…?

    • Alyssa Royse says:

      Actually, that was sarcasm about the fact that men are so often portrayed that way, which could not be more obviously false. It is insulting to men, I think, to be portrayed as a sex-guided missile with no thoughts, feelings, emotions, fears, goals etc…. And it does both men and women a good deal of harm when it comes to constructing relationships as whole people.

      • FlyingKal says:

        I made a lousy job of getting my point across.

        Yes, that first part was sarcasm. I got that. Or at least, I thought I did.
        However, I think that the rest of the article and the comments about how “unsuccessful” or “unattractive” men just should “stop playing the game”, seem to abandon the idea about the expression as just sarcasm, and instead take the position that this is actually how it is.

  24. KC Krupp says:

    I really wanted to like this article. It was written so well and with such a tone of understanding, and then came the action steps and my brain shut off everything that you tried to say. After this great expose about the struggles of men, somehow at the very end it gets turned around and suddenly made all about the women again: “Be our allies, stop violence against women.”

    I hate to say it, but yes, some of the bias comes from Alyssa’s gender. I’m okay with a man telling me, hey this is what you’ve got to do because I’ve experienced it to, but to have a woman then turn around and say “I hear you, I finally do, no go fix it with steps 1, 2, 3, and 4” just feels condescending; I believe when men do this for women feminists call it “mansplaining.”

    Second where’s the onus on the women? As a man I’m constantly being told that It’s my job to stop rape, it’s my job to support women’s rights, it’s my job fix this world, and where are the action steps for women? What onus is on the women to fix this? The article asks us to come together, okay, and what are women bring to the table? A lot of the demonizing and “bad storytelling” that this article talks about comes directly from the people who want us to “ally” with them.

    Yes, please be our ally, and then we can keep telling men that they are all rapists and abusers. *sarcasm*

    • Melenas says:

      I’ve heard this referred to as hypoagency or “toxic femininity” before. The removal of any and all responsibility and accountability from women and assigning it collectively to men.
      This is the lazy manipulative sister to violent, overly-aggressive toxic masculinity and at the base of patriarchy theory.

      • As part of the assigned reading for a class, I recently read N.O.W.’s “Statement of Purpose” from 1966, written by Betty Friedan herself.

        It states something very similar, at least in passing, that treating women like they have no agency or letting them off the hook for their decisions is contrary to NOW’s principles. It says it opposes all “policies and practices” that “foster in women self-denigration, dependence, and evasion of responsibility, undermine their confidence in their own abilities and foster contempt for women.” It puts this statement under the subheading “IN THE INTERESTS OF THE HUMAN DIGNITY OF WOMEN.”

        So, it’s lumped in there with some other ideas, but here’s a suggestion of some feminist original intent. Friedan argued that hypoagency is contrary to feminism, at least her view of feminism.

        • @Steve,

          This is the brand of feminism I have always supported. My knowledge of feminism is limited. But, I know there are extremes on BOTH sides.

  25. wellokaythen says:

    It’s somewhat surprising that one would find Dan Savage so unthreatening when it comes to male sexuality, because his view of what hetero men want is not all that different from the mainstream. The major difference is his openness to variety, not any sort of radical re-invention of male sexuality. (This is why I like to read his stuff, and why there are lots of fairly mainstream, vanilla, traditionally minded men who like him as well. He probably has more fans who fit a frat boy stereotype than fit with feminism.)

    It must be primarily because he’s gay (more specifically, that he’s not attracted to women) that you find him so unthreatening. Otherwise, his view of hetero male sexuality is pretty blunt, and definitely not politically correct when it comes to ideas about patriarchy, objectification, etc. He’s certainly pro-porn and generally in favor of pursuing whatever fantasy floats your boat in a consensual way without analyzing the fun out of it. His concept of sexuality as a basic human right might appear to some people to be a statement of entitlement.

    Finding him nonthreatening has much more to do with one’s assumptions about straight men than it has anything to do with what he actually says.

    • Yeah, Dan Savage is not a favourite person of mine after he called a man who felt traumatized after he woke up to find his partner fucking him while he was asleep for a “guilt-tripping, blame-shifting motherfucker“. I do not consider that attitude towards male sexuality for non-threatening.

      • wellokaythen says:

        I imagine his views on “implied consent” haven’t gone over very well with a lot of people….

    • Bay Area Guy says:

      @ Wellokaythen

      Agreed about Savage.

      I’ve noticed that so long as someone is a member of a “protected class,” they enjoy much more leeway. Even then, Savage has been attacked by elements of the cultural left for his “transphobia,” lack of racial enlightenment, etc. He also was excoriated by fat acceptance feminist Lindy West for criticizing obesity.

      Just imagine the venom he would receive if he were heterosexual.

  26. Every time I read one of these articles and the resulting comments threads, it becomes obvious how little men and women are actually listening to each other. Both sides are largely talking past one another, and only taking in/accepting ideas that support their established worldview.

    To the women: Understand that the men here are saying that they have, in many cases, done EVERYTHING you’ve asked them to do — often for decades — and yet many of them are spending the majority of their days and nights alone. To be told that, “rejection isn’t that big of a deal,” or that things would go well for them if they only did “just this one more thing…” is a massive slap in the face. That’s especially true when they see thugs, djs, bodybuilders, and bikers doing anything but what a typical reader of these articles would do, and still taking home more girls than they can handle.

    To the men: The women here do seem to be sincerely trying to help you, but most of them really have no idea how. From their perspective, whenever they reach out to men, all they get is anger in return — which then begs the question, “why even bother?”

    I don’t see anything on a society-wide level that’s going to change this dynamic any time soon. Ultimately, it’s up to the individual to throw off their own cultural biases and restrictions and figure out what works for them.

    • @DD….

      “The women here do seem to be sincerely trying to help you, but most of them really have no idea how.”

      They don’t know how because they really are not being totally honest about things. It’s not about male anger per se. But, as you correctly note, how can a women tell men to do A, B, C, D…..and it will work when they themselves do not practice what they preach.

      American (white) women have gone so far off the deep end, the situation is almost hopeless.

      Solution: Find what works best for you. Ignore all BS advice, especially from women, and go about your business. If that means eschewing white American women then so be it. If it means finding a FWB so be it. If it means dating/marrying a woman of another race, culture, country etc, then so be it.

      “I don’t see anything on a society-wide level that’s going to change this dynamic any time soon.”

      The only way it will change anytime soon is when women start being more honest about what is REALLY happening on the ground. Telling a man he needs to wait until the typical woman has gone through “loads of frogs” is simply insulting. I certainly am not interested nor would be interested in such a woman.

      The whole thing is just one sided an in favor of the women. So be it.

      • Hi
        You make it sound like choosing a woman ” from another race” as going down and marry some one less valuable than a white woman.
        Not very sympathetic view you show here.

        Fortunately lots of men find women to love in other countries . That is great

        • Melenas says:

          Well, if your only reason for choosing a woman from another race is because you think white women are all “bitches and whores” I don’t see things working out in the end…

          • @Melenas…

            I never said white women were “bitches and whores.” It is very clear what I stated.

            YOU may not see things working out in the end due to you closed mind. But, I see Ryan Gosling and Tom Brady have wives of a different cultures.

            I hear so many white women say how “unattractive” Eva Mendes is and how Ryan could have “done better”. I just laugh. I guess they don’t realize there are zillions of beautiful people on Earth.

            Let’s see how it works out for them. You might be surprised.

            • Melenas says:

              Sorry, I suppose I was being a little too sarcastic.
              I didn’t say that interracial relationships can’t work out or were bad in any way.
              I suppose I conflated you with a certain type of person all too common on MRA-related sites.

              I apologize for that.

            • @Melenas…

              Apology accepted.

        • @Iben…

          Hello!

          No, that is not what I meant by the remark. All I am suggesting is for those men who live in misery chasing after a lot of these double talking and disingenuous white females, that they should look else where.

          I am not saying other women, especially women of color, are inferior to white women at all. Quite the contrary. If white men were more open to dating outside their race, they could avoid a lot of the hassles they currently experience.

          • Hi Jules

            I think you are right. And the men that restrict their dating pool to only women with a certain color,or certain shape of the eyes and nose then they do not get any sympathy from me if they are alone.

            But sometimes I read that black women in America say that the black community do not like that their women date and marry white men.

            • @Iben…

              Hi.

              “But sometimes I read that black women in America say that the black community do not like that their women date and marry white men.”

              Race is a crazy and insane issue in America. Neither group, in general, are really gung ho over interracial dating/marriage. But, who cares!

              The purpose of life is to be happy! Why limit oneself? Yes, a lot of white men are stuck on thin women with boobs. I say “Get a Life!” Why? Two thirds of Americans are overweight. So, how realistic is it to find your “tits on a stick?”

              To the women who want only tall men. Here is a stat for you: only 15% of American men are over six feet tall. So, right out of the gate you have excluded 85% of prospective mates. Happy hunting!

              There is HOPE. I have a 16 year old son. I see race as being less of an issue with the young. There is a great relationship between the races in that age group. Maybe it is rap & hip hop that has bridged the gap, of all things.

              I am 50 and I know our generation, while having done much good, has also done much harm too. Narcissism is rampant.

              It’s kind of odd that you’re seeing some of white women’s iconic and sexy men marrying women from other cultures. Ryan Gosling, Tom Brady……I think this is a trend that will continue.

              But it is always your choice. i say damn the torpedos. I am going to get out of life the best, very best it has to offer without silly limitations.

    • OirishM says:

      To the men: The women here do seem to be sincerely trying to help you, but most of them really have no idea how. From their perspective, whenever they reach out to men, all they get is anger in return — which then begs the question, “why even bother?”

      Except that’s not just what they’re getting back. They’re getting detailed explanations as to precisely WHY this makes us angry, and despite the implied threatening nature of male anger, it is perfectly valid to feel and express.

      And yet despite these explanations – and this really isn’t the first time we’ve all had this merry dance – we are still being told the same things above the line.

      So really, the question becomes, why aren’t women listening?

      • I agree that anger is not all that women are getting back. There are some women here who are making a genuine effort to respond to men’s complaints. But many of them see the anger and really have no idea where it’s coming from or how deeply men feel it. That much is obvious from their responses. I’m not saying that the anger isn’t justified, only that many women see it as a barrier not worth reaching through.

        So why aren’t women listening? That’s easy. Their lives aren’t impacted by this the same way yours is. They are curious, and they want to help, but it’s not essential to their happiness. That’s why I end my response the way I did. Having this discussion is nice, but ultimately this is something that will have to be handled at the individual level.

    • FlyingKal says:

      DD,
      To the men: The women here do seem to be sincerely trying to help you, but most of them really have no idea how. From their perspective, whenever they reach out to men, all they get is anger in return — which then begs the question, “why even bother?”

      That’s really the thing, isn’t it. They really have no idea how. Yet, articles and suggestions seems to come from a place that knows everything! I have yet to read something from someone “sincerely trying to help”, who have actually made an effort first to find out what my problem truly is. They all pretty much presume I am and do the polar opposite of what I actually am.

      1. Be an ally. Help us stop the violence against women.
      I have cared for more drunken, passed-out girls than I care to remember, without ever even thinking about taking advantage of the situation. Regardless of how drunk I was myself..
      The anger and resentment afterwards pretty much always came out towards me, not the loved one they were pining for, or the one (sometimes the same guy) who supplied the alcohol.

      2. Ask women what they want, and listen to what they tell you.
      If you can’t get someone to actually say what she wants, and instead just avoids the question or constantly tells you what she just thinks you want to hear. I don’t know. But it’s all my own fault, I guess.
      If a “no” really means, “I’ll think about it, ask again later”, then what?

      3. Let us in, don’t lure us in.
      The door’s been open for 25 years. I guees the Welcome rug must have blown away.

      4. Don’t take it personally.
      As an opposite, we are also told to be true to ourselves, passionate, and follow our heart.
      Yet, being blown off on a regular basis is supposed to be a non-issue…

      5. And lastly,know that your body is beautiful.
      I do not think I am deformed in any way. Yet, the responses I have received pretty much range from distaste to disinterest.

      Yet, i still believe this article to come from a place of good intentions.
      And I, like many others, would like to offer my compliments to the author about the situation at the Sex Ed.

      • Hi FlyingKal

        You write:

        “I have yet to read something from someone “sincerely trying to help”, who have actually made an effort first to find out what my problem truly is.”

        Then why don’t you describe YOUR problem?
        Do you know yourself what is your problem? Do you.

        Maybe Alyssa wants to hear it.
        And maybe some of the other men online here can understand and tell you how they solved problems like the ones you have.

        You have full anonymity here so why not bring it up.

        • Alyssa DOES want to hear it. I will gladly host an “opinion” (can’t quite call it “advice,” because that’s condescending” column on my own site, or at GMP, or on my radio show, or…. Seriously. You want to run things by me, do so. I’m easy to find online, and, for better or worse, I’m in this for the long haul. I actually care deeply, very deeply. I hear the anger, the fear, the resentment all around me, and the only thing I want to do is go into the messy & dark places that I am invited and see what we can figure out, together.

          My aim is pure, if imperfect.

          And, for what it’s worth, this site is The Good Men Project, so everything I write here is aimed at men. I have written ans spoken plenty about women opting out of the game too. We are ALL in this, to varying degrees and in varying ways. Moreover, not all men are the same, not all women are the same.

          Yes, Alyssa wants to hear it. 😉

          • OirishM says:

            Yes, was pondering this this morning as I was rereading Noah Brand’s 5 things article, which I liked a lot. Maybe someone (could give it a shot m’self) could do something like that but with a specific focus on male sexuality?

          • Mr Supertypo says:

            Alyssa good job with your article. Yes it has some evident weak points and spots, all already mentioned. But beside that, this comes out as one of the best I have read until now. My advice is, make a treasure of the opinions you read here, and take them in consideration, next time you write a piece like this.

            peace.

        • FlyingKal says:

          Iben,
          I know what the symptoms are, but I actually have no idea what the real problem is.
          Cause if I did, I would have changed it, don’t you think? But any effort have been in vain.
          Of course, with the long and growing list of resentments over the years, the shyness has reinforced and in some cases more turned to fear. Not fear of being rejected, plenty of experience there. But maybe a fear of turning into “that guy”, I don’t know…
          Fear of declaring to myself al my life that I won’t be that embarrissing old dad, the one who is retired by old age before the kids graduate. And realizing that now I’m here, it’s actually too late.

          Being the one who always have to initiate contact in a 5-1 ratio even with friends, not to fall out of the circle. Yet is always the first to be contacted when a task needs performed.
          Having female friends wanting my opinion about inviting certain persons to their parties, and then not getting invited myself…!

          I brought some stuff up the last time you said you wanted to know. And I brought some up in the list above. But the question is just repeated with not a comment on that. So, why?

          • Flyingkal

            I do not get all your comments on e-mail.
            This system with e-mails is not working properly.
            I get some comments and some posts but not the others. So to be up to date I have to start from the very beginning each time and scroll.

            This website needs improvement !

    • Bay Area Guy says:

      @ DD

      Yes, I recognize that Alyssa’s heart is in the right place, and that many women here are trying to be part of the solution.

      But…

      To emulate Jules, I’m going to quote MLK as well: “shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will.”

      Reading some of what’s written here has been more frustrating than the outright snark of the likes of Lindy West.

    • If women are going through the ‘thugs, djs and bozos’. Why aren’t the guys who are left out doing the same? are these the guys who don’t find much success in this? the ones getting advice to become ~PUA’s?

      Personal perspective, I meet a great guy when I was 18 we were together for 4.5 years. The whole time I was feeing undeserving of him and worthless. I had issues from my childhood which meant that I sabotaged areas of my life especially relationships just as things were going right and becoming consistent and delivering the fruits of my labour…..being treated so nicely by him felt alien to me, uncomfortable. I started to get itchy, tried to break it off but went back, then I became a coward and cheated, then I broke it off. I had a get out of ‘jail’ card. I punished myself for 18 months by persisting a relationship with the guy I cheated with. Despite the fact that is was unhealthy, abusive and toxic. But that is what I felt like I deserved. I then went on to sleep with quite a few guys in various scenarios and I wasn’t emotionally available. I was unfocussed, depressed and lost.
      I wasn’t really attracted to the bad boys or thugs or what not I was attracted to the attention by anyone relatively decent. This was a mixture of guys of different types. My ego was hooked.
      1.5 years since I consciously changed my behaviour and 5 years of therapy later.
      From this personal experience – my answer to your comments is why would you be chasing emotionally unavailable females for a relationship in their twenties? they are trying to work through their shiz and so are you. Eventually you work through and work out who you are THEN you are ready for a partner, if part of that process was sleeping with thugs then accept that it is part of the process and as I say why the fuck weren’t you doing the same or similar? if you choose not to that, don’t go and hold it against a female that did. She was working out who she was.
      Looking back at my LTR that guy was awesome and the female that snapped him after me she’s a lucky lady. I made my choice and I knew that my issues were too important and that I had to go it alone to solve them. I liked to think I could of worked through them whilst in that relationship, but ultimately he probably needed to break out too.
      that comment about waiting for the women to finish with the thugs portrays the guy as a victim. stop seeing yourself as a victim.

  27. Hi DD
    Just a question. What have we the woman asked men to do?
    I can not rember I have asked any of my boyfriends or my husband to do anything.

    I know you talk about the single men.the men that sleep alone every night and want to find a woman.
    But what have we women told men to do?

    Some women have a voice in society, but those few women do not speak on behalf of all women.

    • Well, right here in this very article, the author listed five things men should do directly to help counter this impression of men as sexual predators. She also indirectly mentioned that we have a responsibility to help in “understanding male privilege, dismantling of patriarchal mythology and ending rape culture.” Many men have already taken significant steps in this direction, yet none of these things are going to do anything to help men in their relationships or in getting better/more regular sex.

      The thing that most women fail to understand is that while sex isn’t necessarily the most important thing to us in a relationship, it is a primary motivating factor. And if men are continually being told by women to do things in support of women that don’t in any way, shape, or form lead to a potential increase in sexual access, eventually they are going to grow resentful and angry. That’s where all the anger comes from. Men are tired of being told, “Yes! Keep doing this. Women will love it!” only to watch the same women they desire continually run off with men who do the exact opposite.

      It’s strange to me, because ultimately I want to see men and women both be happy… with each other. But so much of what I know to work for me in that regard runs completely contrary to what I see written here in these articles and in the comments. Most times, when I’m trying to be helpful, I feel singled out as being anything but… which time and time again leads me to ask, “why even bother?”

      • Hi FlyingKal

        You write:

        “I have yet to read something from someone “sincerely trying to help”, who have actually made an effort first to find out what my problem truly is.”

        Then why don’t you describe YOUR problem?
        Do you know yourself what is your problem? Do you.

        Maybe Alyssa wants to hear it.
        And maybe some of the other men online here can understand and tell you how they solved problems like the ones you have.

        You have full anonymity here so why not bring it up.

        • FlyingKal says:

          Iben,
          That’s exaxctly my point.
          How can you say that you sincerely tried to help, when you don’t even figured out what the problem is first?

          It’s like you’re having a problem with your computer. You try and reboot it. The problem is still there. You reboot it again, and a third time. Still not working. So you pick up the phone and call Helpdesk.
          “Hi, I have a problem with my compu…”
          That’s as far as you get before you get interrupted with “Just reboot it and it will work just fine.” *Click!*

          That is the feeling I get from discussions like this…

  28. Joe Carver says:

    I’m a straight man in the movement. I’m not an “ally,” I’m a feminist.
    Nothing separates me from the women I work with, except for the angelic penis thing.
    I loved the article, there are some great points to the downside of the predator/prey relationship.
    I am used to hearing about how it implies that women are weaker and sets up a dangerous power imbalance, but appreciated hearing about the other implications.

    Great article, thanks for writing.

    Side note: If I didn’t have a long-time girlfriend, people would think that I were working in my all-women field for reasons other than to reduce violence against women. Society doesn’t trust single men because of this view of sexuality. Let’s end the discrimination, vote single man for president! (it will never happen)

    • Alyssa Royse says:

      THANK YOU, Joe! We’ll get it done. It’s a long haul, for sure. But totally worth it.

      • “Justice delayed is justice denied.” – Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

        • Alyssa Royse says:

          Please walk me through the thought process that led you from you not getting sex when you want it to quoting Dr. King about social justice.

          • @Alyssa….

            First, let me say that I am getting regular good sex when I want it and how I like it. Also, my girlfriend enjoys the same from me. Luckily, I have met a woman who has a similar libido as mine AND genuinely likes me. However, I want to be a voice for good, decent, loving, compassionate men who have gotten the shaft by women while following your five recommendations.

            In my view the issue is NOT the predator/prey model that is causing so many issues here in America. After all, this model exist in the majority of the world and we do not see the levels of relationship and sexual dysfunction as we have here.

            The issue is just why women find so few men attractive. As DD noted above, so many men have done everything so many women have asked and they still cannot enjoy a relationship or get sex. Yet these same women don’t have a problem allowing degenerates, thugs, jackasses to have free reign of their bodies without preconditions.

            He (man most women will fuck but not have a relationship with) does not have to comply with your five requirements. Nor is he even expected too. He gets a free pass. But, the majority of men are expected to do so. And yet women wonder why so many men are now turning to escorts, porn, PUA……? Women have constructed one set of rules (NONE) for one group of men and another set for the other men.

            What so many women think is that it is OK for them to just screw all the men whom they see fit to screw (usually that small percentage of thugs, bikers, degenerates, sociopaths…or other men who have more women than he can fuck) but tell MOST men to “just wait patiently and your turn will come.” How insulting and disgusting can that be!

            What is so appalling is the very men who are most likely to rape, abuse, and be sexual predators are the very ones that your five rules are not enforced! By the choice of most women. So, it IS your choice to consort with many of these men.

            This is the reality of MOST men in America or at least white men. I am a black guy and I really feel sorry for a lot of the good, decent, kind, loving white men. Thank God minority women do NOT think like a lot of these modern well educated white women.

            Telling a man he just needs to hang tight while you and other women go through your 20-30 frogs IS a form of social injustice. Just marry one of your frogs! Hence, my MLK quote.

            • Bay Area Guy says:

              Incredibly powerful comment, Jules.

              Again, as you’ve hinted at before, I wouldn’t be so angry at this behavior on the part of American women if they were at least honest about it.

              Instead, we get all kinds of contradictory, condescending advice that does little good.

              Women need to embrace equal responsibility along with equal rights. Not that I’m holding my breath.

            • @Bay Area Guy…

              Thanks.

              But, in the grand scheme of things, it is very very sad and disheartening. I care deeply about our country and my fellow citizens. What I see is it coming apart. Largely due to narcissism and selfishness. Me me me me I, I ,I, I. This applies equally to both men and women.

              The purpose of life is happiness. I have a son and I want him to be happy. If I had a daughter, I would desire for her to be happy as well. Fair play.

              On this topic, at least the women are offering up some advice. I was married for over 15 years with over 10 of those years being sexless. I simply endured. It remained that way until I just could not take it anymore.

              Every morning I awakent was like I was engaged in a struggle with Satan. I was conflicted over my vows to my wife and to God.

              In the end I feel I failed because of the divorce. Everything I believed about women, fair play, being kind, compassionate, and doing no harm was challenged.

              Yet, I am the same kind, compassionate, empathetic, simple man I have always been. My vow is not to allow what I endured destroy the man I am and the man I have always been. I remain the same old country boy from the Deep South who made good but still is kind, loving, compassionate, giving, and willing to help anyone. I keeps me grounded.

              Flannery O’Connor is one of my favorite authors. She wrote a short story called “A Good Man Is Hard to Find”. In the end, The Misfit kills an entire family. The grandmother is the last to be killed by The Misfit. She begs The Misfit to think of Jesus…..He replies, “there is no pleasure but meanness.” Then he shoots and kills her.

              My battle is to avoid that pleasure of meanness as it relates to women. I might come across as angry and bitter. I am not. My writing style is similar to that of another of my favorites, Euripides. Euripides and Sophocles were rival. Euripides said, ” I write about the way things really are. Sophocles writes about the way thing out to be.”

              It is just that I cannot bring myself to really put much faith and trust in women today.I treat them with respect, kindness, compassion, empathy….But I just remain skeptical. I don’t dislike women. I love them and cannot live without a woman.

              Just being honest and telling you the God honest truth on how I feel. I am telling you how things really are.

              Cheers!

            • Your last paragraph reminded me of the 90’s advice for the ‘nice guys.’ “Just concentrate on your work and making money and girls will eventually like you.”

            • Alyssa Royse says:

              That makes me so sad, JTCC. And is the problem happening on the other side of this unstable equation. When women buy into the whole “Prince Charming is rich, buys you things and drives and expensive car” we perpetuate the problem. Objectification by any other name is still objectification.

              So, to be clear, that’s not what I meant, and never will be. In my perfect world, no one picks a mate based on things like that. In my perfect world, we pick partners that make us feel safe, inspired, sexual, playful, stable, make the world seem full of more possibilities because we feel more alive and adventurous with them. Not because they’re a trophy in any way. Or someone who can fix us and make us “whole.” Or whatever.

              Men and women – gay and straight – are all guilty of this. And we all need to opt out. How to make that happen, I don’t know. But I do know plenty of people who have totally opted out, and most of them are a lot happier.

            • Whoa. Dude, NOT all women are alike. The problem is listening to some women doesn’t mean other women want that. I know women who want to have a man spend cash on them, others whom would be offended by a man to spend cash on them. Yes some women do like bad guys, some even stick around with guys whom are rapists. I know one woman at the moment who started casual sex again with a guy who raped her, it’s fucking annoying and sick in my view but it’s her life. She learned the hard way again that this guy is bad news and is highly abusive, I told her it’d happen but she went there anyway. Doesn’t mean she represents all women, she just represents one woman. It’s not like there aren’t plenty of guys who go back to abusive women, bad women and reward them with attention for abuse.

              It’s HER choice, not WOMEN’s choice. Many abusive men are very charming and can disarm a person’s fears, that’s why they can be so successful for so long because others DON’T believe they did it. An abusive but charming man will get a heap more women than a shy but sweet guy because the charming asshole puts himself out there, does the numbers game and shows his desires to a woman whilst the shy guy is too quiet and she wouldn’t have a clue what he wants.

            • OirishM says:

              He (man most women will fuck but not have a relationship with) does not have to comply with your five requirements. Nor is he even expected too. He gets a free pass. But, the majority of men are expected to do so. And yet women wonder why so many men are now turning to escorts, porn, PUA……? Women have constructed one set of rules (NONE) for one group of men and another set for the other men.

              Very nice comment indeed Jules.

              Something I’m increasingly wondering with regard to the Nice Guys ™ meme is – what’s the actual difference between a Nice Guy who doesn’t get laid, and the narcissist who does? The only difference I can think of is either the girl who takes him home simply finds the latter more attractive, and he’s better at bullshit.

              For something with such an apparently small difference, there is a huge amount of vitriol dished out at the Nice Guys who don’t get to take the girl home vs. the guys who aren’t really that nice either, but still get the girl. More and more I find myself sympathetic to Girlwriteswhat’s take on Nice Guys – that they’re actually disliked because they show up that many women, including feminists, don’t actually find the characteristics they claim to want (based on their high-minded views on gender) attractive.

              And yeah, I see this in my personal life – female friends that I’ve had chats on gender issues with, and for all that they’re saying the same lines, they seem to just get used time and time again by guys who clearly don’t have those interests to heart. Maybe used isn’t even the correct word for it.

            • FlyingKal says:

              Thanks, OirishM. :-)

            • Jules I’m sure you saw my comment on this article:
              http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/hesaid-im-in-love-with-my-friend-but-she-has-a-boyfriend/

              Notice how the responses tried to placate me with “it’s about attraction”? I still want to know and would like someone to address what is being taught to girls and young women that they _want_ to and prefer the “thugs, bikers, degenerates, sociopaths” to smart, stable, level headed, and well mannered men (that they often keep as friends)?

              I think one only needs to look at the *wink wink* nature of the fem discourse on “nice guys” when they say “oh we don’t really mean nice guys, we mean ‘Nice Guys'”. If girls/women weren’t being taught by their mothers, friends, magazines, movies, and tv shows to chase after and value the bad boy (while discounting the stability of good guys) you could get rid of a lot of problems that we debate on GMP every day..

            • I don’t think either parent’s teach them; certainly not intentionally. Although I do wonder if absent or neglectful fathers might lead a woman to grow up valuing disrespect and detachment over respect and love. But then to a certain extent there’s also the spontaneity issue – spontaneity is attractive, but it’s hard to be spontaneous, at least in the short amount of time afforded by nightclub or dating culture, if you’re respectfully trying to negotiate boundaries. In a community two people can get to know each other, and they negotiate boundaries over a long period of time… but sadly a lot of us don’t live in communities anymore. If you look at dating websites the vast majority live in heavily populated urban areas because these are the areas where relationships can’t evolve; the expected amount of time from meeting to intercourse is contracted and only the disrespectful can work that fast.

              Maybe… I don’t know … this isn’t my theory; I’m just thinking out loud. Let me know if you think I’m on to something.

            • Whoever is asking men to be patient and wait does sound condescending – what they should be doing is saying go and do the same…..go and have sex with gals, get out there..

              Seriously, we shouldn’t be rushing into marriage we should be gaining some emotional maturity first and how ever long that takes – are we all expected to be celibate?

            • Blimey it’s hard to navigate this comments thread now to find where new posts have arrived to reply to them!

              @NK.

              I think for a lot of men it doesn’t seem to be an option. You’re not the first woman to suggest to me that I can do the same as they do, but I know from experience I can’t, and not because I don’t want to. It’s not about attractiveness for us; although for years I thought it was, and my self esteem was severely knocked by it. As I said elsewhere (but this comments thread is so chocka now you probably won’t find it) in the same way that (as Einstein said) “Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”, so it can be that everyone is attractive but if someone’s success depends entirely upon their boldness and their chat-up technique, and no other quality that others may find attractive then someone who is not naturally gifted with “a sense of entitlement” or this singular skill, their poor success rate will tell them that they are not attractive. This is one of the reasons I am against the cookie-cutter script we’re supposed to follow that the man makes the moves, and the woman decides whether she is happy with it or not. Plus, the cost of making a mistake is much higher for a man, in a world where “an unwanted sexual proposition” is considered to be definitive of sexual harassment, he has to be damn sure a woman wants him to make a move before he does so, even announcing the fact that you want to is enough to make an uninterested female feel uncomfortable. But I know there are women that even felt resentful towards me because they thought they were giving me a green light and I didn’t act upon it, and as far as they’re concerned I’ve rejected their advances, but from my point of view the light wasn’t bright enough or a vivid enough shade of green for me to feel safe. But, because I’m quite verbose, naturally to the extent that I can’t help it, and quite expressive, if I was to make the first move it’d often be felt that I was over-doing it or trying to hard even when I was being myself. What success I’ve had with women has been the result of them making the first move, which “the script” tells them they shouldn’t. Fortunately I’ve just come out of a bad period where I can at least reciprocate advances when they come to me; there was a period there where due to a bad experience some years ago, I didn’t even feel safe doing that. Effectively if I thought someone was flirting with me, I’d go through every alternative hypothesis until I found one that was feasible to explain their actions and opt for that one instead. “so we’re meeting for coffee? Does she want a date or does she just want advice? Safest to assume she just wants advice. So she keeps stroking my arm; physically attracted, or is she just tactile with everyone? Safest to assume she’s just tactile with everyone. When she said “sometimes you just want to have fun, don’t you?”, did she mean “fun” as in sex, or “fun” as in dancing, or just hanging out and having a laugh? Seriously, that’s how fucked up and neurotic I’d become. And there is always an alternative hypothesis if you look for it. But isn’t that what we’re told, and repeatedly lectured “never assume”. I don’t need to be told to “never assume”, I’m a born sceptic. I need to be told it’s okay to make mistakes; that occasionally we’ve got to go with our gut and take a risk, the worst that happens is both of you feel embarrassed and you have a laugh about it. If only that was the worst that could happen. Actually the worst that can happen is she tells her friends, “shit I think Joseph fancies me” (assuming my name is Joseph, which it isn’t) and they all think “what a nerve. The creep. Who does he think he is?” and you get ostracised; you don’t even lose just the one friend, because the others have cast their judgement upon you. And on retrospect that’s her fault for being a coward and not taking up the issue with me so we could talk about it like adults, and the fault of her friends for being judgemental pricks, and… (this is the awkward bit) … the fault of my wife for suggesting an open-relationship in the first place… ah… (pause… okay I realise that was a dramatic change of perspective for the reader, so I’ll let that sink in a moment) and in terms of me, I am such an open vessel for guilt that if anyone wants to lay any on me I’ll absorb it like a sponge. Even so, whilst it is obvious why I was judged – no one was in full possession of the facts (oh did they assume? So is it just me that’s not allowed to make assumptions?), I’ve got a backlog of anti-male-sexuality messages from the media, anti-male-sexuality messages from my peers, anti-male-sexuality messages from our culture – I am socially primed to place culpability onto my own sexuality, and I did, and I’m only just recovering now five years later. Many of the people doing the judging were male by the way; this isn’t a “gender war” issue – but it is a stereotyping of gender differences in sexuality thing. You don’t have to be female to be misandryist, or carry misandryist memes, anymore than you need to be male to be misogynistic or carry misogynistic memes.

  29. David May says:

    It’s interesting to read this just now when, in therapy, I’ve been discussing how my early adolescence (age 11) and growth spurt frightened some adult women, as if my middle class, Puritan upbringing were not enough to teach me to control what I was just beginning to understand about my body and my sexuality.

    I’ve never considered that heternormative men would be considered predatory by definition — I thought only us queer boys and girls were thought of as predatory, corrupting and unfit company for decent people. That’s what we were taught back in the early 1970s, anyway… But now I see, hey, my straight bros are pigs, too, just like my queer bros! Awesome.

    Thanks for the article. It makes me proud of the way I raised my daughter to treat her sexuality, and the sexuality of others (including the boys) as something precious.

    • Nah, guy, apparently we’re all holy terrors. Don’t you love that feeling of togetherness you get when we learn something like this? On a more serious note, sounds like you’re doing a great job raising your daughter; a person who looks at the world with wonder instead of fear (or as a rabbi I really respected once told me with a question mark instead of an exclamation point) is a treasure.

      • David May says:

        Thanks, bro. Rachel is now grown, married and a new Mom. She remains the greatest joy of my life — though being a new Zeydeh comes awfully close. I look at the expression of frank curiosity in her infant daughter’s eyes and see Rachel’s calm sense of wonder as she explores the world before her.

  30. ON TOADS: Boy am I regretting using that turn of phrase. Marcus, I cannot find your comment here, though I read it in email, so let me make a toad clarification.

    By “kissed a lot of toads” I meant some combination of: met for coffee, hung out with thinking maybe, went out with, occasionally fucked. But toad was not a reference to the quality of men, at all. I just meant it as “not a match for me” in whatever way. Tried to make myself physically attracted, but wasn’t. Tried to convince myself a relationship could work, but it couldn’t.

    Yes, I found an amazing match for myself. When I was 42 and he was 44. In my mind, he is the single most amazing guy ever created, and was pretty much custom-made for me. Which may explain why, at 44, he was still single, because for every other woman he had gone out with, he was some degree of “toad.” He was not the match for them. And they were not for him. Likewise, I was available because I was a toad for a lot of guys.

    • I can’t really get upset about the “toad” comment. It’s idiomatic at this point and its origins are clear enough. However, your acknowledgement that it is a less than thoughtful and potentially hurtful way for any woman to refer to a man who simply doesn’t do it for her is appreciated.

      Now for the sarcasm. If I wanted to mirror the way slips like that are savaged by some people who seem intent on doing a “gotcha” when someone is careless, I’d point out the entitlement implied in a woman so callously dehumanizing a man who had the temerity to be, of all things, unattractive to her. I might identify the symbolic privilege bestowed on a woman in a cultural narrative that casts her as royalty, albeit royalty who has to sift through inhuman debris looking for a suitable match among her male suitors. I could even blame a culture that makes it so easy that it’s allmost unnoticable when the author of an article pleading for an end to our culture’s harsh treatment of men’s sexual needs refers to men who are trying to meet those needs as “toads” because she doesn’t like them “that way”. As if it wasn’t one woman being a tad careless in her choice of words, but rather an entire culture essentially conspiring without even knowing it to show disregard for men. End sarcasm.

      The thing is that I know it was a simple comment with no ill will intended. It happens. All that stuff I mentioned above does happen at times, but this wasn’t one of those times. It makes no sense to go looking for injustice with a capitol “I” and dressing it up in received wisdom when that search and that enclothing might distract me from seeing it actually happening, or worse yet, might prevent me from doing something real about it.

      • FlyingKal says:

        I don’t think Marcus was upset by the choise of toads as a metaphor. And as for me, who I think made the first comment about it, I wasn’t either. I actually thought it was a pretty good one, as it is well-known and all that.

        I just wondered, for a person being in her/his forties, how would you think the outview on life would be different for someone who has “kissed a lot of toads” in comparison to someone who rarely if ever got the acceptance to have coffe/date/kiss/fuck with anyone?

        • I don’t think Marcus was upset by the choise of toads as a metaphor.

          That is correct. I extended the metaphor because it was easy to riff on, but the thing I was criticizing wasn’t her choice of words per se. Instead of “toad”, she could have used more neutral phrasing like “unsuitable partners”, and that comment still would have demonstrated a lack of empathy. I don’t mean the kind of empathy that comes from maliciousness, because I don’t think it was meant that way, but the gist of the comment was still that men without dates or relationships shouldn’t sweat it, because she’s living proof that sometimes you gotta “kiss a lot of [unsuitable partners]” before you find a good match. That’s well and good if you have access to enough prospective partners that you can bide your time and feel patient because you expect more opportunities. Maybe those opportunities come because you’re attractive enough that people approach you, or maybe it’s because you’re attractive enough to at least occasionally be accepted as a prospective partner when you do the approaching. Either way, it’s patience made possible by the experience of having at least some success. That contrasts rather starkly with what some of the people being told to “be patient” here have experienced, which is a state of waiting that has only ever led to more waiting. Even people who aren’t completely shut out of dating opportunities can experience so much rejection or lack of interest that any opportunity feels like it might be the last. I get how that sounds desperate and desperation isn’t attractive, but advice to just tough it out through the unsuitable partners until you meet a good one doesn’t resonate with people who find *any* partner scarce. To go with another food analogy, it’s like telling a starving person who lacks reliable access to food to put down that Big Mac because if they just wait for dinner there will be healthier food, or in some cases, to just fill their bellies with hopes of meals to come.

    • Likewise, I was available because I was a toad for a lot of guys.

      what guys? how many guys rejected you?

  31. Melenas says:

    I guess to state it very simply, what (men) can do to improve the image of male sexuality is: don’t be a predator or a douchebag, communicate with women, don’t be a creep, don’t take rejection personal, love yourself.
    Out of all of these, I think the last one is the most important. It is easy (especially if you are a man who has experienced rejection) to start feeling like you are ugly and worthless, which leads to an attitude of supplication and trying to “prove your worth” to women which can lead to more rejection and a downward spiral into “nice guy”-ism.
    I spent a few years like that before I realized that nothing I could do would make women realize how great and nice and whatever I am; there was no trick or game or magic spell I could use to change women. The only variable I had any control over was myself.

    If possible, I would like to add a few things women could do to stop demonizing male sexuality.

    1) Stop reducing men to their sexuality.
    Not all men want to “pound as much pussy as possible”. Men care about more than “just one thing.” Don’t assume that when a man expresses interest in a woman he just wants to screw her and nothing more. Some of history’s most famous poets and romantics have been men. And a lot of men (some of whom I know personally) don’t even like sex without a romantic connection first.

    2) Stop spreading fear
    Yes, rape and violence against women does happen and it is a terrible thing, but the truth is that the vast majority of men would never physically or sexually assault a woman, and furthermore would leap to the defense of a woman being victimized. Also men are more likely than women to be victims of violence. Every time you talk about “rape culture” or focus solely on male on female violence, dismissing or ignoring male victims and female perpetrators you are propagating the image of men as brutish predators.

    3) Do some of the work in initiating relationships and sex
    If you like a man, try asking him out. If you want to have sex, try bringing up the subject yourself. If enough women start to take charge, or at least take on some of the burden in romantic relationships maybe we as a culture can move beyond the image of man=predator woman=prey.

  32. Although I do think that changing gender power dynamics do, to some extent, answer for some of the disconnect and the ‘them and us’ paradigm (which has always been there) has simply changed flavours rather than gone away, I still believe that something else is at work here. Consumer societies encourage people to view everything as a product for assessment and consumption. We are daily encouraged to act like a ‘savvy buyer’ in all aspects of our lives and similarly to ‘sell ourselves’ to others as if we were products. So the mutual generalization, quantification, valuation is not really all that surprising.

    Men aren’t ‘men’. They are a collection of unique human beings who happen to have a set of genitals in common. Similarly, women aren’t ‘women’. They are equally unique individuals who may have some things in common with others of our species in possession of breasts and a womb.

  33. Hank Vandenburgh says:

    If I were a woman, Bill and Ted would have wrecked Keanu for me. Bout like Melanie Griffith.

    • Joanna Schroeder says:

      Hank, seriously, I would’ve thought that too. But he’s got that *something* in real life. Charisma. But also intelligence and a thoughtful manner of speaking.

      • Hank Vandenburgh says:

        Hi Joanna, I do think physical attractiveness smooths the way. I’ve always been big, usually in shape, and fairly good looking. Because I like relationships, not just the act, I’ve minimized the casual sex I’ve had. Oddly enough, I usually knew the women for over a year at least. My ideal was good looking nerd women (somewhat rare) because my inner nerd always wants someone to talk to. I guess they have to be a little north of Star-Treck fandom, though. (One wants to ask you– but this may be embarrassing– did you make boyfriends of the not so good looking ones? If I answer this question honestly for myself, I have to say no. I was sexually picky. Not always, but…usually.)

        • Alyssa Royse says:

          Not trying to be inflammatory….. How is your not accepting women because you were not sexually attracted to them any different than a woman not accepting a man because she was not sexually attracted to him? Or is it?

          • Hank Vandenburgh says:

            It’s the same (if you mean by accepting not having sex with the person.) I wasn’t arguing that anyone should do anything different. It’s biological. But I’ve never been attracted to conventional beauties. Basically, they’re deploying their looks to get men who, for the most part, are shallow, if successful. I had brief relationships a couple of times with cheerleader types, and they don’t like intellectuals (or didn’t then) and I am one. So it never lasted. They were crippled in bed, and boring intellectually. I have plenty of women friends who aren’t attractive. But a reasonably pretty woman who’s smart– mmmm.

  34. Shannon says:

    I loved this article. Although I do agree with most of the commenters that the second half of the article is a lot of what we’ve all heard a million times. And I get everyone’s frustration that the burden of dismantling “rape culture” (or whatever you want to call it) seems to be placed exclusively in men’s hands. I think this is bullshit.

    I’m a female and here is my question: What can women do?

    A lot of what is said in this post is a great start. (The parts about accepting and embracing men’s sexuality as healthy, non-predatory and non-scary)

    I understand why sentiments like the ones expressed in the second half of the post are ill-received. It’s condescending, it trivializes the struggles that men face and the vast majority of men are decent guys who already know this stuff. I just feel like I rarely hear sound advice for how women can help. Its not sarcasm, it’s an honest question. Can we have a post about that?

    • Hi Shannon

      Good question!

    • I just feel like I rarely hear sound advice for how women can help. Its not sarcasm, it’s an honest question. Can we have a post about that?

      I’m just one man and this is only a comment instead of a fleshed-out article, but one suggestion I have for how women can help is to stop thinking of or characterizing male sexual frustration as “entitlement”. Being frustrated at not having something you want (sex or relationship) is not the same as feeling that you’re owed it. In fact, the frustration is often magnified by a feeling that you’re not owed it, so the chances of ever getting it feel hopeless. The more un-entitled and un-deserving you think you are of such attention, the more frustrating it is.

      • Alyssa Royse says:

        I am willing to try and take this on, but I have to admit, it feels like walking into landmine. Clearly it’s an important one, because it’s a word that will get both sides up in arms. So I will try to explore it, but let me clear, it’s a terrifying prospect when being disagreed with results in some pretty nasty shit being thrown around.

    • I’m glad you asked such a question and as one of many men please allow me to respond.

      I think one of the biggest problems when it comes to demonizing male sexuality is the despite what the numbers say (and Alyssa even straight says it in her post) about the majority of men not being sexual predator we still operate under the notion that it is okay to still presume worst faith in men when it comes to sexuality.

      Not only that but that presumption is defended with lots of keywords like patriarchy, male privilege, entitlement, and so forth.

      I’ve seen plenty of times where a guy tries to speak up about why he is angry with it comes to dating and sex and there are people (women and yes even feminists among them) drooling with anticipation to shout him down as thinking he is owed romance.

      When a guy is talking about the ways that he feels take the time to actually listen to him rather than trying to figure out how to force his experience through a lens that is more interested in making him out to be an entitled and privileged whiner.

      Also Shannon I think you address something else big in your comment (which has been said many times in this thread).

      How can you in one breath call on everyone to work on changing the impression of male sexuality but in the next give men the list of steps that they should be taking (where four of the five are centered around women)?

      In a lot of the advice I keep hearing in the gender discourse I often hear about how men need to learn how to trust and listen to women.

      Can we get the same in return?

      • Alyssa Royse says:

        I am listening. I am sorry that the list was aimed at men, but in my mind, the whole article was aimed only at men. Because this site is aimed at men. So I wrote this article for men.

        I have written similar things for women, given talks and workshops for women, all of which say pretty much the same thing.

        I do NOT assume predatory intent in men, as I would hope is clear by pretty much everything I’ve ever said and done on this site. However, male privilege, patriarchy and entitlement are all very real things. And key to making progress in this is that we find a way for men to see that they too are, essentially, get screwed by it. They are old and established systems that are, amongst other things, responsible for the purity myth, which is one of the reasons women think they have to rebuff sexual pleasure and “protect” themselves from men. I want these old thought patterns abolished not because I think men are predators or should be punished or because I am angry – quite the opposite. I want any and all obstacles between ALL of us and our sexual agency, authentic expression of self and ability to communicate (and commune) freely abolished.

        I hold women just as responsible as men for most of this, and have battle wounds from angry feminists to show for it. So before you go assuming that I am in any way against men and blindly supporting feminist doctrine, please notice that I am still hear, talking to you all, despite some pretty foul commentary.

        BOTH men and women need to learn to listen. I, for one, am listening. As far as I know, every woman working here is listening, and working our asses off in “your” camp because we believe. We believe that we have all been raised in a system of outmoded gender binaries that are harming all of us. And we believe we can make it better.

        Again, this is the Good Men Project. This article was written for a male audience. That is why it does not include advice for women any more than an article in Men’s Journal contains advice for women.

        • Bay Area Guy says:

          Want to make progress with men?

          Stop using buzzwords such as “patriarchy,” “male privilege,” “rape culture,” and “entitlement.”

          Aside from a few male feminists or fellow travelers, most men are going to tune you out when you throw those terms around.

          • Exactly. Many of these gender battle buzzwords are made up terms created in a graduate student’s office somewhere on a university campus and they have little congruity with what happens in the real world. It’s a huge turn off to read in article after article. Another new one is mentioning Steubenville which was _one_ incident perpetrated by some bad people and not some sign of a rampant epidemic.

          • Mr Supertypo says:

            I agree, when I read those words, usually I roll eyes, and look somewhere else….

        • I am listening. I am sorry that the list was aimed at men, but in my mind, the whole article was aimed only at men. Because this site is aimed at men. So I wrote this article for men.
          And that’s fine well and good. But at the same time please bear in mind that the majority of the gender discourse is already aimed in a manner of “what do men need to do in order to connect with women” and that’s it. I don’t want to say that there is nothing being said about “what women need to do in order to connect with men” but speaking as a man that very rarely comes up.

          I appreciate the aim at men and yes it is important that men do these things. But at the same time please bear in mind that this is what we nearly always hear when it comes calls for unity.

          However, male privilege, patriarchy and entitlement are all very real things. And key to making progress in this is that we find a way for men to see that they too are, essentially, get screwed by it.
          Even for as real as the ideals, thoughts, and events that are collectively known as these things there seems to be a bit of a flaw with the process of analysis involved with them (if for no other reason the very adamant denial of female privilege). And as for getting screwed, the problem I haven’t isn’t that there is no recognition that men get screwed. Its that at the end of the day the screwing of men is at best treated like collateral damage of a system designed to devalue the feminine rather than a feature of a system that will mow down anyone and everyone regardless of gender to maintain its own power. But I’ll let that go for now.

          I do NOT assume predatory intent in men, as I would hope is clear by pretty much everything I’ve ever said and done on this site.
          When did I say you did? What I DID say is that you mention in your post that the majority of men are not sexual predators.

          ….please notice that I am still hear, talking to you all, despite some pretty foul commentary.
          As long as you can acknowledge the same in return. You’re not the only one carrying wounds around here (and its not like I tried to say you aren’t).

          BOTH men and women need to learn to listen. I, for one, am listening. As far as I know, every woman working here is listening, and working our asses off in “your” camp because we believe. We believe that we have all been raised in a system of outmoded gender binaries that are harming all of us. And we believe we can make it better.
          And I appreciate that.

          Again, this is the Good Men Project. This article was written for a male audience. That is why it does not include advice for women any more than an article in Men’s Journal contains advice for women.
          So when it comes to women’s spaces there’s no advice and material pointed at men? That’s what I’m getting at Alyssa. When it comes to women’s spaces there is no shortage of some of the very same steps you list here about what men need to be doing. So from my perspective whether I look in men’s spaces or women’s spaces the vast majority of the advice is what men need to to do in order to connect with women as if that’s the only thing that needs to be done to get everything going right.

        • Jonathan G says:

          Dr. Nerdlove wrote that men need to set firm boundaries in dating. in that vein, and in keeping with the idea of writing for a male audience on a site for and about men, I, for one, would love to read your take on what boundaries men should set and what is fair and reasonable for men to demand of women in helping to end these damaging gender expectations and myths.

        • Adam Blanch says:

          I imagine it is frustrating for you to be writing what you believe to be pro man articles and getting this sort of kickback. Let me try to explain why.

          Much of what you have to say is well intentioned, but you still feel entitled to promote your ideas of what men should do and who men should be, despite the fact that you do not know what it is like to be a man in this world. It’s not even so much what you are saying, its that you are saying it at all. If a man were to write about women’s issues in this way he would be shouted down as arrogant and Misogynistic.

          How do you like it when a man presumes to tell you how to behave, or how to interpret your experience of life? Does he know what it”s like to exist in a female body? Does he face the unique social circumstances of a female? Doe she know the identity pressures of being a woman? It is a remarkable thing to me that modern women feel so free to discourse about who men are and how men’s lives are, while defiantly refuting any such discourse about women from men.

          We don’t need you to help us with our struggles, our emancipation is our business. What we need is for women to stop participating in our oppression by presuming to define our identity and our reality, and to stop using us as the scapegoat for all the parts of their own humanity that they don’t want to own up to. We are perfectly capable of speaking for ourselves, we don’t need you to do it for us. If you want to advance the cause of male well being (and I get that you do), send your articles to the Punch, Women’s Agenda, the Huffington post and other pro feminist sites. What we need from women like you is for you to handle what is happening on your side, not on ours.

          Our submissions simply don’t get published because we are men disagreeing with the feminist polemic. We are dismissed as denialists, apologists and misogynists. If women like you start making regular submissions to these sites then eventually some of it has to get through, but please don’t speak for us – speak of your experience of this gender divide and your hope for a better future – offer women a better vision of empowerment than the role of the angry victim. talk about women’s violence, women’s sexism, women’s participation in oppression.

          I don’t want to sound like I am rejecting collaboration here, I’m not, but the collaboration we need from women is for women to start handling women’s sexism and subjecting feminism to the same critical deconstruction that they have subjected patriarchy too. Demand that your side end the war on men.

        • @Alyssa….

          “We believe that we have all been raised in a system of outmoded gender binaries that are harming all of us. And we believe we can make it better.”

          Dr. Pangloss.

        • Anonymous says:

          Why do you say this site is aimed at men only? If you really want to change the perception of the male gender then why exlude females as an audience? I would be better if you just admitted your mistake instead of making hollow excuses.

          All that being said, I did like the first part of your article and I appreciate you bringing up an interesting topic.

    • wellokaythen says:

      Thanks for the question. I think it’s a welcome one. Just one opinion from one male egghead:

      Boring as this sounds, I would just ask for a little more intellectual rigor, or a little more use of critical thinking skills. Or maybe just a little bit of intellectual humility for everyone who talks about sex and gender. And this applies to everyone, feminist or not.

      Please, please, please keep open the possibility that what you think you know about sex, gender, men, women, hormones, patriarchy, entitlement, etc. may not be true. Or it may be overblown. Or there may be an even better explanation yet to reveal itself. Let’s all try to avoid our senseless knee-jerk responses to disagreement. (Yes, I have to work on that myself. I’m better than I used to be!)

      One example: when someone (me, for example) suggests that a particular explanation may be exaggerated or too often taken out of context, don’t assume that I am questioning its entire existence. If, like Marcus, I think that “entitlement” is a common misdiagnosis, don’t assume that I’m saying that there’s no such thing as a sense of entitlement. Keep open the possibility that there are qualitative differences and not everything is an either/or.

      It’s okay to let go a little bit of whatever orthodoxy you’ve latched on to. It is possible to disagree with, even challenge, someone’s statements. That does not make me an apologist or a denier. There are other possibilities.

      • Nice

        “It seems to me what is called for is an exquisite balance between two conflicting needs: the most skeptical scrutiny of all hypotheses that are served up to us and at the same time a great openness to new ideas. Obviously those two modes of thought are in some tension. But if you are able to exercise only one of these modes, whichever one it is, you’re in deep trouble. ….Some ideas are better than others. The machinery for distinguishing them is an essential tool in dealing with the world and especially in dealing with the future. ” – Carl Sagan

        Absolutely. The most prized of all possession is a crystal ball. The almighty Mr. Sagan is pointing the way.

  35. I would like to say that women probably enjoy their privilege in this realm and keep treating men this way to keep that privilege. Why treat men like they are not predators, when treating them as predators forces them to prove themselves.

    • Alyssa Royse says:

      I don’t think you’re wrong about that. I have called many women to task – in many cases very publicly and with very strong backlash – for that. As long as we trade in sex as a tool to get things, we are part of the problem. Of course, that is true no matter what the gender. The overly heteronormative angle of that comment can be erased and the sentiment still stands.

      The sad part is that the games and trickery obfuscate our ability to actually get to know each other. Which is why I opted out.

      There are certainly women who enjoy the fact that they can use sexuality to get things. That is a problem. But it is the same problem – conflating self worth with sexual conquest. Conflating sexuality with value. Thinking that our value is our sexuality.

      That said, how many men do you know who are looking for an overweight girl with acne, glasses, asthma and poor social skills. It’s fair to say that the idea of sex as value is reinforced from all sides.

      • Alyssa

        I am willing to bet my life’s earnings (not that they’re much) that an overweight girl with acne, glasses, asthma and poor social skills would have way more dating and sexual options than a guy with the SAME description.

  36. Archy – I read your question in email and I cannot find it on this thread.

    Yes, I have dated bookish overweight guys. I have dated guys who are not conventionally attractive, but turn me on for who they are and how I feel with them. That said, I’m a hardcore jock, and I always have been. Whenever I have tried to have relationships with people who are not athletic, they never work, mostly because the things we enjoy doing don’t jibe. I cannot stand sitting still, inside, in front of a screen of any sort. So I tend to have relationships with guys whose idea of a good time is a 30 mile bike ride or a CrossFit throwdown, or a hike or….. For what it’s worth, I have found that frustrating, but have wound up with great friendships and a partner who is better suited to how I live my life. (And how I live is definitely not what some people would choose.) People have to choose compatible partners based on how they want to live their lives. But I think it’s fair to say that for every woman who dismisses a man because he’s not rich or strong or buff enough, there is a man who dismisses a woman because she’s not hot enough.

    We all look at the wrong things first.

    • Ah sorry I meant that for Joanna, but that works as well thanks. For me I am outdoors in daytime a lot, indoors at night, can’t stand being inside much in the day in a sedentary style of job. Gotta keep the mind and hands moving, building stuff. 30mile bike rides though are extreme for me but I’d try keep up with my gf if she did that but compatibility would be a good idea as some athletic activities are not what I want to do (eg running is a turnoff for me, I am a large bodied male and impact on knee’s would be bad even if I had zero fat due to being 6’6 and still a lot of muscle underneath).

      It’d be great to find a woman who loves to fly RC models, play with robotics etc but they are sooooo rareee 😛 Complete compatibility will be hard to find when so many roles are gendered still, many of my hobbies are very stereotypically male (engineering, carpentry, robotics, electronics, RC models, fishing, etc) but I would welcome ANY female or male into the hobbys and hope more people cross the boundary and just do what they love. Hell I sew at times, I gotta sew some curtains in a while, I do arts n crafts, etc.

      • Alyssa Royse says:

        Archy – I can do plumbing, electric and carpentry. My husband can, and does, cook and sew. Our oldest daughter is computer programming, robotics designing, jock. One of the two mothers of our two youngest daughters (sperm donor for a lesbian couple with whom we raise our two youngest) is an auto mechanic, and all three of our girls can build anything IKEA has to offer, though the 3 year-old needs a little help. Things are changing in that pesky (and pointless) gender binary. Just not fast enough. But they are.

  37. Adam Blanch says:

    Allyssa, I love that you are brave enough to advocate for ending the demonisation of male sexuality, and your point that teaching girls to be empowered to say yes as well as no is vitally important. We desperately need women who are willing to advocate for the essential goodness of men, which is why I’m conflicted about what I’m going to write next. I hope you will take it as constructive conversation rather than personal attack. There are a few flaws in your argument, or to put that differently, a couple of blind spots that inadvertently contribute to the predatory image of men even as you argue against it.

    (1) the advise you give to men has an unconscious assumption that they are going to be predatory, and that they need to ‘not do’ certain things to dispel the image, where the reality is that the majority of men do not do those things. What needs to change is not ‘men’s behaviour’, but women’s generalisation of the antisocial behaviours of the few to the many. The solution to this problem, the power to create a better narrative, lies with women because it is women, and feminism particularly, that has created the toxic narrative about men. The idea that men need to change to dispel that narrative is akin to the feminist idea of blaming the victim. In the narrative of men as perpetrators, men are the victim. I realise that this is difficult for many women to get tehir head around because the toxic and disempowering narrative of women as victims is also very prevalent, toxic and largely unchallenged.
    (2) The idea that men need to be more active in speaking out against violence committed by some pathological men against women. Once again, you transfer the guilt of some men to all men, to satisfy the stereotype of women as victims. The overwhelming reality is that most men do not commit violence against women, do not endorse violence against women, and will actively seek to protect women from violence. The violence that occurs against women is not the result of men failing to oppose it, and certainly not the result of men endorsing it (rape and violence culture theories simply don’t stack up against the evidence). In fact, it’s got nothing to do with gender, but is the result of pathological psychological disturbances – exactly the same causes as for women’s violence. This has been established through extensive research, but it contradicts feminist male blaming philosophy, which means that this knowledge is extensively repressed and hidden from the public. Asking men to ‘prove their innocence’ by speaking out against violence is once again blaming men for the toxic narrative about them that some women have promoted.
    (3) The reality is that some sexual behaviour IS predatory, and once again research establishes that women engage in predatory behaviour to the same extent as men do. Predatory behaviour is not the result of gender or culture (rape and violence culture theories consistently fail to prove out against evidence), it is the result of pathological psychological impairment. Predatory behaviour arises when an individual sees the other as ‘object’, our earliest evolutionary mode of relating and our earliest developmental stage of relating, where the infant sees the parent as a need fulfilment object. It is only as we mature that we begin to see the other as ‘subject’ and recognise that relationships are a two way street. Where development is impaired this maturation is retarded or absent. Men are particularly vulnerable to this impairment because boys are socialised against their natural empathy and feelings from an early age, though this doesn;t explain why equal numbers of girls display predatory relationship and sexual behaviours.

    The real issue here is not the dismantling of ‘patriarchal mythology’, but the dismantling of the mythology of patriarchy. Patriarchy was an excellent theory to describe its original target, the christian churches and the cultural norms they generated. However, it is a spectacular failure as a theory of male psychology or gender differentiated behaviour, particularly in relation to violence. This is the great inconvenient truth that feminist philosophy doesn’t want acknowledged, that patriarchy is the flat earth theory of gender behaviour – it just doesn’t match the evidence and continues to exist only because it is the underpinning dogma of a movement that cannot admit to its own errors for fear of losing its power and influence.

    In short, it is women who have created and perpetuated the stereotype of men as predatory and violent and it is women who will need to dismantle it. If you want to see change here you will need to challenge your own sex, and perhaps your own beliefs, not blame men for the lie that has been perpetrated against them.

    • I would love to see this featured as Comment of the Day, but here’s my favorite part:

      The real issue here is not the dismantling of ‘patriarchal mythology’, but the dismantling of the mythology of patriarchy. Patriarchy was an excellent theory to describe its original target, the christian churches and the cultural norms they generated. However, it is a spectacular failure as a theory of male psychology or gender differentiated behaviour, particularly in relation to violence. This is the great inconvenient truth that feminist philosophy doesn’t want acknowledged, that patriarchy is the flat earth theory of gender behaviour – it just doesn’t match the evidence and continues to exist only because it is the underpinning dogma of a movement that cannot admit to its own errors for fear of losing its power and influence.

      Very well said. The feminist application of patriarchy theory, along with components like rape culture, male privilege, and entitlement are not ideas that help reduce the demonization of male sexuality (or men in general) by understanding them. Such ideas stipulate that men and their sexuality are bad and threatening by default, so solutions that emerge from that line of thinking are already granting the premise they claim they’re trying to debunk. I don’t think it’s even a conscious thing, because belief in those ideas can be so deeply ingrained, but it’s like saying we need to stop thinking that demonic possession is responsible for people doing bad things, so here are some tips on exorcism…

      • I’ll second that nomination.

      • wellokaythen says:

        So, now you’re an apologist for the Round Earthers. You’re just one more person in denial about the flatness of the planet. You just don’t “get it,” do you? If you could simply walk a mile in the shoes of other people who know that the earth is flat, you wouldn’t be so blind to reality. I will now loudly express my disgust with this misflattist forum, tell everyone here that my truth is being silenced, and seek out other true believers on the web who really do “get it.”

        ; – )

    • FlyingKal says:

      One other thing to add.
      If the message is “Don’t be predatory, and don’t be a creep.” any discussion about women’s actual preferences aside, there is the issue that you can’t prove a negative.
      As the word goes, “Absence of evidence is not evidence for absence.”

    • @Adam…

      Bravo! Simply awesome. Thank you very much.

      “… it just doesn’t match the evidence and continues to exist only because it is the underpinning dogma of a movement that cannot admit to its own errors for fear of losing its power and influence.”

      Evidence, facts, and data many women and feminist are not interested in at all.

      Also, again I ask the women why don’t they (women) challenge the silly behavior and conduct of more women. I will not hold my breath for an answer.

      I am a Black man. It is like when I challenge other Blacks when they try to blame all their problems on racism and white people. It simply is not the case. Yes, there is still a legacy of racism in America, but you cannot blame all your problem on racism.

      Similarly, women have responsibility. They cannot blame a lot of things on men. Where is the accountability from other women?

    • Adam,

      Stop perpetuating the stereotype that the Earth is round. Think critically about how the “geological” “sciences” are a socially and culturally constructed discourse maintaining current distributions of power on the global scale. Globanormativity is simply a tool of Western patriarchal imperialist discourse, and it’s about time that we challenged the horribly racist, sexist, able-ist, and classist ideas inherent in the idea of a round planet. Notice how it always seems to be white men talking about the earth being round? Makes you think….

      The next thing you know, rich white males will suggest that gravity is some sort of natural force independent of gender constructs. We progressives know better.

      • @Steve…

        “We progressives know better.”

        I scoff at the notion. You’re simply elitist enough to THINK you know better.

        Btw, since “progressives’ are big proponents of public education, when are you progressives going to stop putting your kids in private schools?

    • Mostly_123 says:

      Brilliant! Thank-you Adam.

  38. ” I raised my hand and said, “Can we also talk about how to teach girls to say ‘yes’ to sexuality” No … but we can teach WOMEN to say yes. Surely introducing sexuality too young, at an age and in circumstances when perhaps “no” is more often than not the sensible answer precludes the other half of the discussion. I would be quite happy to discuss the other side of things at a stage where I felt she was ready for a serious meaningful relationship with someone at a similar stage in life and was not just succumbing to peer pressure, or was too young for the responsibilities that come with an intrinsically sexual relationship.

    • Alyssa Royse says:

      Actually Ravi, at any age there are safe and appropriate ways to discuss the reality of healthy sexuality with kids. Certainly at the onset of puberty it is easily time to help them understand that sexuality is about pleasure and that learning to acknowledge what pleases you and give you pleasure is a right, and an important part of overall health and happiness. I spend a lot of time helping parents have these conversations with kids of all ages, it’s one of my favorite things to do. But, just in case you missed it, here is a great piece that Joanna, Julie, Jamie and I wrote to help parents everywhere. http://goodmenproject.com/families/the-healthy-sex-talk-teaching-kids-consent-ages-1-21/

  39. Hi Jules
    About your comment to Joanna.
    Read Adam Blanch’s excellent comment to Alyssa
    where he talks about :”In fact, it’s got nothing to do with gender, but is the result of pathological psychological disturbances ”

    When you Jules see all women in a negative light,( even if you use the word many) is because you lump them all into same group, as if they all are same personalty type. As if all women are pathological psychologically disturbed. When you write:
    “Women still go home with thugs, degenerates, bikers, djs, sociopaths, Rent-A-Rasta, etc whether they meet in a club, PTA, a public library , park, night school, a private party, church…..

    The one thing I have learned about many women is: they always do what THEY want to do and fuck whom they want to fuck.”

    When you write like this Jules,it also sounds like you let a woman dominate you in a relationship.
    This is not meant as an criticism of you, I struggle with the issue. I let myself be dominated by the man in a relationship.

    [[I am sorry I could not find your comment and put in this comment the correct way. GMP needs to improve this website and make it possible to find earlier comments. In long debates in is impossible, at least on an iPad.]]

    • @Iben….

      “When you write like this Jules,it also sounds like you let a woman dominate you in a relationship.
      This is not meant as an criticism of you, I struggle with the issue. I let myself be dominated by the man in a relationship.”

      I was not dominated Iben. More like lied to robbed of 10+ years of my sexual life that I can NEVER get back. My reason for so commenting is because I see this on a daily basis. I personally know women who will say the five things that Alyssa wrote, but go off with the jackasses. Why? Well when I ask it’s: “He is so fun”, “He is OK until something better comes along”, “He is great in bed”, “He is a Black guy who fucks me senseless”…….

      What really really really annoys the hell out of me is these same women will “settle down” to good man for procreation and not even think the man deserves sex. They do not even find him sexually attractive. What little sex he does get is shitty, unmotivated, and I decided I would rather not even be bothered with…

      Then you hear all the familiar excuses: “he needs to help out around the house more..” Never mind the fact that he bought her a damn $1 million home. Or, “I am just too tired.” After a while, I just tuned her out. She no longer mattered. That when I decided to get divorced.

  40. FlyingKal says:

    Hi,
    I am over 40 years old, and I have spent at least a couple of those years in a relationship. So based on this experience and in the interest of the subject of the discussion, I will offer some advice to women who feel that they would like to have more sex in their relationship.

    1. If you let your partner know that you are going to seduce him when you both get home from work, then waiting for him to take the initiative is not going to help you have more sex.
    2. If you are out somewhere together, and you say to your partner “This is dull and boring, let’s go home and have sex instead. “, getting occupied by a TV-show or calling a friend to make other plans when you get home, is not going to help you have more sex.
    3. Hugging your partner, kissing him and looking him deep in the eyes, just to get his full attention to tell him all about today’s trials and tribulations at work, is probably not going to help you have more sex.
    4. If your partner is trying to seduce you and the two of you are down to your underwear or even further along in the process, interrupting to fill him in on all your mother’s new ideas about homestyling is not going to help you have more sex.
    5. If you spend a day together at home doing nothing in particular, and starting to hint at the “honey-do-list” as soon as he’s getting within hugging distance and then pouting about it when he answers a call for assistance from a friend, is not going to help you have more sex.
    6. If your partner tries to initiate sex, saying a firm “No” when you really mean “I’m a bit occupied right now but I’ll think about it, ask me again in a second…”, is not going to help you have more sex.
    7. If your partner tries to initiate sex and you do answer “I’m a bit occupied right now but I’ll think about it, ask me again in a second…”, complaining that he’s a single-tracked sex-maniac when he do ask again a little later is not going to help you have more sex.
    8. Any instance of telling your partner that women doesn’t want sex or think about sex as much as men do, and it’s biological and there’s nothing to be done about it, is not going to help you have more sex.
    9. Being in bed together late at night and just about to fall asleep, saying to your partner “You know, I told you this morning that I expected my period to start today so that we weren’t gonna be able to have sex. I just realized that it didn’t actually start today so we could very well have had sex this evening.” and then immediately turning over and fall asleep, is not going to help you have more sex.
    10. (Yes, I had to make it an even 10, didn’t I?) Saying routinely after actually having had sex “Why don’t we do this more often?”, when you do not seem to mean it because initiatives from your partners 9 times out of 10 will fail by any reason similar to the ones above, is probably not going to help you have more sex either.

    I’m pretty certain that I speak for a majority of men when I say: We want to support you, fulfill your needs and help you feel good about yourself. But if your acts and body language are more or less constantly in opposition with what you tell us with words, you are making it pretty darn hard for us to provide that support.

    • FlyingKal, comment of the YEAR!!!

    • @FlyingKal…

      Terrific job!!!!

      “But if your acts and body language are more or less constantly in opposition with what you tell us with words, you are making it pretty darn hard for us to provide that support.”

      True. But it is also being thoroughly dishonest.

    • :)

    • Amazing! – 4. If your partner is trying to seduce you and the two of you are down to your underwear or even further along in the process, interrupting to fill him in on all your mother’s new ideas about homestyling is not going to help you have more sex.

      ha ha ha ha

      I am horrified at the prospect of having a marriage or LTR and the sex dwindling – I spoke to the guy i’m seeing right now and we recognised that I have a higher libido than him. I generally want it all the time with him. It does point to him being happy with less sex – if we go the distance and have a LTR or marriage than am I really going to loose interest? I just cant bloody see it……

  41. Alyssa

    Sooner or later, society may have to come to terms with a reality about human sexuality – That women just find fewer men attractive than vice versa. And that that is the root of all the differences we observe in the ‘sexualities’ of men and women.

    As we speak, this idea sounds absurd, offensive and uncomfortable to both men and women, for entirely different reasons.

    When a man is very attractive, women “become just like men” in their responses and behaviors. If you observe closely you realize that very attractive men have lifelong history of experiences very similar to that of the average woman’s. Slowly it dawns upon you that women aren’t that different in sexuality. That they are equally capable of the so called “predatory behavior”, which perhaps manifests differently. Its just that they find fewer men physically/sexually attractive ….so few that it APPEARS to us that certain behaviors/traits are gender specific.

    I’ve only gotten silence from the columnists, critics, commentators and experts of culture, sexuality, sex & relationships, and gender issues; on otherwise very busy threads, whenever I’ve brought this up. Perhaps because thinking along this line will threaten their ‘gigs’.

    So my question to you is, is this “theory” really that absurd that it doesn’t warrant some serious thought?

    • Alyssa Royse says:

      I don’t think this is absurd at all, and THINK there is actual science to back it up. However, it begs lots of other questions, all of which I think are worthy of exploration.

      I do know that when I talk about picking partners with my daughters, I talk about how people make them feel. So we focus our conversations entirely on being aware of how you feel when you are with someone, and from there looking at whether that person is a safe pick as well as one that generally inspires passion – of all sorts – in you.

      We talk about relationships as having 3 major “buckets.” Commitment, Passion & Intimacy. Depending on which buckets are filled, and how much, you can start looking at what kind of a relationship you’re likely to have. Intimacy and commitment but no passion? Probably a friend. Passion and Intimacy but no commitment? Probably a “fling.” All three? That might have the makings of “the real thing.” And then we introduce the compatibility questions….. But we work on honoring all of those things, and allowing different kinds of relationships to be awesome and valued.

      My hope is that this takes the focus of things like, “hot,” “plays the guitar” “popular” “rich”…. And teaches them to identify relationships that feed their personal actualization, while also identifying what role they are playing for other people.

      And I can assure you, I’ve made it very clear to them that sexuality is a source of pleasure, for both men and women.

      That’s what I’m doing to work towards this. What are you doing? What can we all do?

      • @Alyssa…..

        Maybe it is the “feeling” thingy that is the source of the problem? When you are guided and make decisions based on emotion, often it is not the best decision.

        “We talk about relationships as having 3 major “buckets.” Commitment, Passion & Intimacy.”

        I believe this is how women see relationships. Not men. This is why they (women) can have sex with men whom they would not take (thugs, degenerates, djs, bodybuilders, bikers, etc). This also help explain the need for variety in sex which is best satisfied by multiple partners. Hence, my view on why women can do some of the sexual things they do.

        Most men might be lacking in the Passion bucket but strong in the other two. But, based upon what YOU just wrote above, the sex is going to be driven by Passion. Well, I guess it makes sense. Perhaps that why so many marriages are sexless in America. The man has the Commitment and the Intimacy but that’s not sufficient.

        While Sex does not Intimacy, I find I find it really difficult to believe that one can be Intimate without Sex. At least I cannot.

        “Passion and Intimacy but no commitment? Probably a “fling.”

        Then this clearly implies that most “relationships” women have are merely “flings” And since most men (even people are not passionate) then only those men who exhibit passion (confidence?) are going to have any decent sex lives.

        • In my mind, passion is a strong physical and emotional desire for a sexual relationship. So without passion, sex will be pretty boring. (Maybe men are okay with just lust, which is a physical desire for sex – I think of passion as also involving the emotions not just the body)

          • @Sarah…

            This seems at odds with what Alyssa is saying. She (Alyssa) states that Passion + Intimacy = Fling.

            Since when does a fling involve emotions?

            Just asking.

            • All my flings have been incredibly intimate and passionate. Can’t get there without intimacy. It could be an old friend, or someone new that had the zing. No such thing as ‘casual sex’ for me, but I’m down with an incredibly passionate one-nighter with someone I felt a connection with.

            • @jro…

              “..but I’m down with an incredibly passionate one-nighter with someone I felt a connection with.”

              No wonder I don’t understand women. In the final analysis, it really does not matter.

            • I think many women need an emotional component for a fling.

              The PUA stuff talks a lot about that.

    • @Tim….

      Great point. I have been saying this for a few years. Why? Because it is the truth!!!

      However, I will make this one comment. It is primarily an American woman thing. Other cultures are indeed quite different. I would also add that in many of those cultures the men are happier, the women are happier, and their divorce rates are much lower.

      • PursuitAce says:

        I’m wondering how you get away with some of these posts. You must know someone…

        • YOU TALKING TO ME!!!! Just kidding.

          Was your comment address to me?

        • @PursuitAce…..

          “You must know someone…”

          I don’t. This is America. Why would you want another citizens comments to be censored? I know they call it moderating. But, it’s just plain old fashion censorship based on political correctness.

          So long as a comment is not vulgar, it should be published. This is how “moderating” on the Right works. On the Left, it is driven by an elite group who think they know what is best to be read by people.

          I spent time in Eastern Europe in the mid 1980s. That’s how things worked there too!

          • Jules

            My comments are being censored for the last 2 weeks. I am unable to post anything

            • Mr Supertypo says:

              censored? you mean your post go in moderation or it get altered?

            • @Mr. Supertypo…

              Yes, they are flat out not published. When you read GMP commenting policy, you see it is really at their discretion. Vulgar stuff should not be posted. But, to interpret a comment as “misogynistic” is BS. According to whom?

            • lets just say I cannot post a reply to you

            • Mr Supertypo says:

              ask the mods of the reason for this, ask them to email you. It never hurt asking…

          • PursuitAce says:

            Sorry for the delay in replying, but it was intentional. I was communicating by not communicating. My apologies again. My intent was to elicit some of the ensuing comments. Sometimes you can’t even lead a horse to water let alone get them to drink. You just try to get them to sniff the air a bit and decide on their own. The motivation is always strongest when it’s their idea.

    • FlyingKal says:

      Tim,
      Personally, I don’t think your theory is absurd at all. It’s something I’ve been thinking and talking about myself (though I haven’t been able to put words to it in the same way as you do). And like Alyssa I think there’s science to back it up.
      (There was also a dating site, Match or OKC or some other, that ran a survey where the women rated 70 or 80% of the men “below average” on an attraction scale. I’m not saying this is “science”, but it might give an indication.)

      • You’re right, from a scientific standpoint match.com has such an enormous selection bias that any statistics they give are entirely worthless and in my opinion shouldnt even be published because they confuse people.

        This is largely pseudoscience, but from the perspective of evolution women needed less partners and men needed more partners in order to pass on the most genes. BUT I believe most sociological literature suggests culture has a far greater influence, and I would say that the issues Tim brings up are issues not because of some innate sexuality but because women are conditioned to be choosy and men have a societal expectation to want to bang anything that moves, as is noted in the article.

        • This is a bit of a 180 from some comments I’ve made in the past, but I have to say I’m 100% in agreement with you on this one. The whole “girls wait, men chase” is a cultural thing. To me, the largest body of evidence for this is the college hookup culture. As soon as you create an in-group where much of the outside cultural conditioning is removed, it quickly devolves (evolves?) into what is essentially a sexual free-for-all. SOME women become more choosy, as do some men. Some women are less choosy, as are some men. Some women choose to not play the game at all, as do some men. And there are some women who couldn’t play the game at all even if they wanted, as there are men in this group as well.

          From the outside it may look like a handful of guys are dominating the social/sexual scene, and to a certain extent that may be true; but I don’t think its anywhere as skewed as people make it out to be. The problem is that if you go in with this frame that “girls wait, men chase,” then that’s exactly the kind of behavior you’ll engender in the people you’re involved with. The psych types will recognize this as the observer-expectancy effect. I guarantee if you spend some time talking to women in a way that suggests that women are the pursuers, and not the other way around, within a few weeks you’d come away with a much different perspective on the interplay between the sexes.

    • I was thinking the same thing.

      “Cisgendered heterosexual” male objects of desire: Brad Pitt, George Clooney, Jon Hamm, Elvis Presley, Michael Fassbender, Johnny Depp, Tim McGraw, Tom Brady, Dario Franchitti, David Beckham, Paul Ryan, Scott Brown, Frank Sinatra.

      There are a lot more, but in the end it’s a small list. There just aren’t as many men who reach this level of desirability for a lot of women. It’s probably more accurate to say average men are rarely desired. And why on earth should they be? We’ve got a crummy, harsh, ruthless culture in a lot of ways, but at least it pushes men to be something besides average. Most of us fail, miserably, of course. And we’re ashamed of ourselves and take some solace in pretending we should still be able to accumulate gorgeous women. Or any women. But even the most average woman can see through that and puncture that ego bubble with one sharp laugh. As well they SHOULD. Lord, don’t “empower” mediocrity. That’s not demonizing anybody’s sexuality. That’s just telling some guys, a lot of us, not to be so full of ourselves. And to try harder.

      • Adam Blanch says:

        Really Mike, you believe that a man has no right to expect to be desired if he doesn’t look like George Clooney or make millions of dollars? Geez mate, I’m glad i don’t live in your worldview.

  42. Ben_1982 says:

    What a great article. Thanks.

  43. Hey Alyssa, I liked the article, and I think this is an under-discussed topic, so thank you.

    However, I do think you got cause and effect confused here. Correct me if I’m wrong, but you seem to be saying that men should feel more positively about there own sexuality, and that this will allow women to be more open about sexuality and relationships with men. I think it is precisely the opposite, it is because women aren’t willing to be open about sexuality and relationships that men have a negative view of the male body and their sexuality. Women must act first, it isn’t possible to view your sexuality positively if no one is telling you on a consistent basis that it is.

    • Alyssa Royse says:

      Thanks. I didn’t propose an order at all, I wish there was a clear order of operations, that would make it much easier. I think it’s more of a chicken and egg conundrum. We were all fucked up by the same set of ideas, and we have to all get out of it. If I knew precisely how to do that, you can bet that I would make it so. 😉 But I’m pretty sure it’s gonna have to be unanimous and simultaneous, and I have no earthly idea how to pull that off except one brave couple and household at a time, which will make for very slow change indeed. 😉

  44. Sorry for the double post, but I meant to ask this in my previous post and didn’t: What do you mean by “opting out” with respect to your dating life, Alyssa?

  45. Regarding your second piece of advice: ” Ask women what they want, and listen to what they tell you,”
    Many men have tried that, and have not found it useful in being more successfully with women. What is a man to think when he’s careful not to act like a predator, struggling to maintain a positive, healthy attitude toward women despite rejection after rejection, and then reads about a man convicted of the brutal rape & murder of one women and the prime suspect of the disappearance of another has attracted and impregnated yet another woman and will marry her from behind bars? http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/05/31/wedding-bells-for-natalie-holloway-suspect-joran-van-der-sloot.html

    • The phenomenon of women chasing serial killers behind bars is bizarre to the vast majority of women. I don’t think you should generalize from the actions of a few women who probably have mental health issues.

      • Adam Blanch says:

        This is what I mean about women feeling entitled to speak about men’s reality while objecting if men speak about theirs. In several other posts you have make all sorts of sweeping generalisations about men’s lust, attitudes, and motivations – none of which are in any way founded in research about men.
        Yet here you complain about a man making a statement that you believe generalises to women.

        What do you believe entitles you to do so? How do you justify holding forth opinions about an experience of life you simply haven’t had?

        • I think it is a bizarre that a woman would want a relationship with a killer behind bars. I am a woman. I know many women and I think 99% of them would find it bizarre. Therefore, I am entitled to speak from my own experience, same as anyone else. Racnad is feeling bad about women because of a fringe phenomenon he read about on the Internet. Maybe if he realizes it’s a fringe phenomenon and that the women in question are nuts, he won’t feel so bad.

        • Also, I actually try to avoid making generalizations, and instead I try to be clear that I am speaking about my own observations and experience. Maybe I don’t always succeed at that, but it’s my intent.

      • @Sarah…

        Well, I guess it is as equally bizarre to vast majority of men why some women have sex with some of the the men (e.g., thugs, misfits, degenerates….) they do.

        I guess it is pure lust, being horny, and perceived and/or actual good sex.

        Alyssa’s five suggestions are neither applicable nor relevant.

        • Jules
          You don’t get much sex if you are in relationship with or marry men behind bars.

          Those women have serious issues, and make sure they marry men they never( seldom) have to be sexually intimate with.

          I agree with Sara,these women are not emotionally healthy.
          I have read analyses of the phenomena but forgotten the findings.
          I feel sorry for these women,and fear they will be exploited economically and emotionally.
          Falling in love with Ted Bundy, how normal is that?
          Anders Behring Breivik gets proposals for marriage and lots of love letters from women AND MEN.

          • @Iben…

            I grant that women wanting men behind bars IS extreme.

            How about the women who follow professional basketball playes etc? Groupies I think they are called. Or the women who have sex with men who were once behind bars?

            My point is that many women view most men as dangerous……Yet, it with some of the most dangerous and high risk men that a LOT of women have sex with.

            There was a woman who a few months posted how she met this guy in an English class. He was sexually attractive and she did NOT trust him. But, she had sex with him nonetheless. Why? It was exciting…..

            Are they challenged mentally too?

            • Jules
              You made me smile this time. Challenged mentally….

              If women have sex with men they fear, let’s say this is an examples of
              “Contra phobia .” You dive into what you fear the most.

              As far as I know a certain level of danger can be an aphrodisiac for men as well, don’t you agree?

              I have worked in prison,and seen the beautiful women that visit prisoners. But rember they were probably as troubled as their boyfriends,addicted to drugs, and struggling in society …but they were pretty.

            • @Iben……

              Have you ever considered that it is not a phobia at all? Maybe the woman is horny and wants to fuck the guy, regardless…

              I am a black man and have been approached by many white women because they just want to have sex with a black man. Phobia?

              Last night I was watching a show about a wealthy Russian guy whose wife became involved with an ex con. Guy was a real thug and criminal. This actually was a true story based in NYC. She showered the guy with all kinds of gifts and her body. When the husband discovered the affair and was going to divorce her, she killed him. Phobia I guess.

              After all, women are more curious and have a much greater need for variety in sex than men (in my opinion). That need is best met by a multitude of partners.

              I have seen so many women do the weirdest shit with the weirdest men. It cannot all be some phobia. It is just who they are maybe.

              Hence, I don’t buy Alyssa’s five suggestions. There is just too much evidence to the contrary.

            • “He’ll change for me”

            • No Jules,I don’t think white women wanted you because they had anxiety for black men. They were attracted.
              I know nothing of the strange segregation of different ethnic groups in The US.
              The contra phobia was a remark to women that write dangerous criminals in jail,
              and when they seduce/ get seduced by “unusual men” that us forbidden or taboo in society.

    • “…a man convicted of the brutal rape & murder of one women and the prime suspect of the disappearance of another has attracted and impregnated yet another woman and will marry her from behind bars.”

      A good illustration of how incredibly fundamental and durable the right to marry is for hetero couples. A man could be on death row for murdering his first wife, and therefore lose most of his civil rights, including the right to life, but he still has the right to marry another woman. That means marriage is an incredibly powerful individual right, like no other. Clearly the right to get married is not a trivial right.

    • About the women attracted to men behind bars thing:

      I always thought it was either 1) an insecurity thing or 2) an attempt to be someone else’s savior.

      With reason #1, your competition from other women is extremely limited. If your boyfriend’s in prison, he will not be meeting other women, so his options are sharply reduced. He can’t wander, he won’t disappear, he won’t cheat on you with another woman, you know exactly where he is, etc. He won’t be up in your business, either. It’s like a long-distance relationship where you visit him but he will never visit you. And it is extremely unlikely that he will ever turn you down for sex.

      With reason #2, dating a prisoner is the ultimate in taking on a man as a project or being someone’s rescuer. Here’s someone who needs to be redeemed by the purifying, angelic love of a good woman, which only me, a special woman, can provide. Basically a teen girl Twilight fantasy but with thugs instead of vampires and werewolves.

      • I think it could also be a power thing. He’s locked up – she’s not; she has a world of options – he doesn’t have any options. He’s thrilled by the slightest contact with a woman. She’s out in the world, doing whatever she wants.

        I suspect many of those women have a history of childhood abuse and perhaps dating a killer who is in prison is a way of establishing a sense of control.

        And as I said, some people are just nuts.

  46. I do not believe there is an authentic ‘American Culture’. Television/Mass-media does not reflect anything remotely akin to what happens in the real world and yet all I can find on-line is discussions about ideas presented in mass-media as though is is something real. The media we consumed is the problem. We aren’t even discussing these things in authentic settings with people with whom we have relationship. Isn’t culture really about relationship with others? Isn’t sexuality also, exactly that? I see the problem as unresolvable until we stop filling our heads with the garbage reflected onto the TV, written by sickos in Hollywood. I refuse to dignify this idea of `American Culture’ with an honest discussion about this topic that has been so desecrated by media. Instead I would love to read some articles about ideas from people who speak directly with real people, not puking up Hollywood writers’ abominations which only reflect the worst ideas of who we are as humans.

  47. Why f&ck did we have to make up a word for ‘a guy who feels like a guy’?

  48. Ha ha ha,men should be liberated from their gender role of protector of women…..while women should be free to be who they want to be.It’s misandristic to suggest that MEN are response for female safety.You say not to demonize male sexuality yet in the next breath suggest that men should show their utility to help women for access to sex on the notion that “women are more intimate when they feel safe”.

  49. Richard Munn says:

    I like this article.

    American comedian, and handsome, charismatic male, Reginald D Hunter, does an interesting stand-up bit. He said that as he turned 40 he realized that all his life he’s been the one to do the asking, and that “hey, if I have to ask all the time, maybe I’m not worth being asked. So, you know what? I stopped asking . . . . and ever since I haven’t had one single date.”

    I think a lot of men basically don’t feel desired or desirable, and objectify themselves in various ways to compensate for this; largely through status, money, achievement etc. It’s never actually named and seen as such however, but instead men grow up with the message that their success is instead a repression of women, that they are dominating women, and that somehow they must hate or value women only as objects.

    Women make themselves sex objects, men make themselves success objects.

    What I would like to add to the conversation is that while men can serve women by becoming more interested in who they are as agentic individuals, women can also do the same for men!

    While there is such a thing as male priviledge there is also such a thing as female priviledge and power, and that power often isn’t owned and acknowledged as such. There are also a lot of myths about male power. Men die early, have worse health, are more likely to be murdered/be homelss/be a hard drug-addict/go to prison/go to war/not have access to their children in divorce cases/work jobs that remove them for large chunks of time from their loved ones, and are brought up to not value their own health in order that they work jobs in construction, police, fire services, military services, high-risk sports etc.

    There are a lot of male issues, and ways that men are wounded, that simply are not talked about, or even seen.

    Both men and women need to work to understand each other, and culturally speaking there has been no men’s movement of any cultural impact what-so-ever, in part because feminism has argued that one isn’t needed, and that men are the priviledged class in society.

    • This is one of the clearest elucidations of the gray scale of gender privilege i have read. Not to say that males do not have significant male privilege, but your point brings up a concrete example of how the themes of the article play out in real life.

    • Richard
      You write:

      ” I think a lot of men basically don’t feel desired or desirable, and objectify themselves in various
      ways to compensate for this; largely through status, money, achievement etc. ”

      And I ask,why do so many men feel not desired.Not desirable?

      I think it is true,and it creates conflicts between men and women in many ways. A man that never feels desirable will not tolerate periods within sexual validation from women( if he is heterosexual ).

      And this constant need,this lack of sexual self esteem or self worth can drive men to value sex more than other important things in life.

      But for women it is a turn off when sex is only validation of the other,day after day,week after week,year after year.

      • FlyingKal says:

        Iben,
        I think it’s quite a natural drive, wanting to be desired/desirable, both in general on a more low-intense level, and more intense to a (possible) partner. As the alternatives of being invisible or even repulsive lead to loneliness and are not very attractive options to most people.

        But I would be interested to know a bit more what you are aiming at when you write that a man will not tolerate this.
        How long do you envision that these periods are, and how is this “intolerance” displayed?

        • Flyingkal

          Yes it is natural to want to be loved and desired.
          And to express feelings and want to be close is natural and normal. To need constant validation however is something else.

          How long men tolerate not to be desired varies. You will have to ask other men. I have only been married to one man.

          Jump over to the new thread about male virginity, Christian marriage.
          Maybe we will be both a little wiser when we see arguments from a male virgin.

          • FlyingKal says:

            Iben,
            Yes it is natural to want to be loved and desired.
            And to express feelings and want to be close is natural and normal. To need constant validation however is something else.

            Yes, exactly. To need constant validation is something else.
            And you were the one to bring it up, to insert the “constant” into the equation. That’s why I’m asking you how you regard this. Because every time male loneliness is brought up to discussion, it seems to be a women nearby to dismiss the issue by extrapolating it to a *constant* need for validation!

            How long men tolerate not to be desired varies. You will have to ask other men. I have only been married to one man.
            Again, I’m asking you because you were the one to bring it up and link it as a probable cause

            • Flyingkal

              Are we discussing the same thing?
              Male loneliness in a relationships or men in relationship with little or no sexual intimacy ?

              You must set your own borders FK,and express them to the women you live with.
              If a relationship develops into a non sexual one and you live like brother and sister them you have to talk about it.
              I can not rember my husbands time limit.
              He refused to go to marriage therapy. I went alone and learned a lot!
              He did not want a divorce but I left him.

              There are lots and lots of reasons why your ex rejected you. She can be a victim of sexual abuse as a child, she can be confused about her sexual oriention and be a lesbian. Maybe she did not love any longer. Women can have sexual dysfunction just like men do,
              Why don’t you talk with a sexologist FK,and discuss it?

              Couples that love each other don’t split up without trying everything to solve intimacy issues.
              It can help you forward. I do not think she was unfaithful to you.
              http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/06/130601133735.htm

            • FlyingKal says:

              Iben,
              Are we discussing the same thing?
              Male loneliness in a relationships or men in relationship with little or no sexual intimacy ?

              I am responding to and discussing the context of your last post, as I was citing it. If you are now discussing something else, please feel free to enlighten me so.

              My opinion is that everyone (not only men OR women) needs validation, and recognition and fulfillment of their needs within a relationship.
              With the addition of the word “constant” to the context of validation, however, you paint men and their needs in a dismissive way as impatient, needy and whiny.

      • PursuitAce says:

        I think the question of men and desirability has been answered. I’m not sure what is not clear about the issue. And are you saying men shouldn’t tolerate their lack of desirability? What can they do about it? Demand to be found attractive?
        What they should do is accept it and move on. It’s just not that important.

        • yes pursuitAce
          Shake it off and move on. That is a good advice.

        • Correct. Just move on to the next woman.

          As DD stated earlier, this is a matter that has to be addressed at the individual level. Life is short. Sometimes nasty and brutish, indeed.

          I think it is quite evident that American women simply are not going to address the crux of the issues in any serious manner. Why? They are getting what they want out of the game, so why bother.

          Fine. But, when you are 30-40 years old, just don’t write or whine about “where are all the good men?…..?

          • Adam Blanch says:

            Oh dear, fellas. It’s not true that men aren’t desirable, even ugly men can be desirable if they hold the right attitudes and self respect. This is why the feminists hate the PUA movement so much, because it is putting sexual power back in the hands of men. they demonise the PUA’s as predatory, just like they demonise men’s sexuality as predatory, but for most men it is simply balancing the scales and reclaiming some self worth.

            Of course George Clooney has an advantage in the looks department, but it isn’t looks that make a woman aroused, its a type of behaviour, attitude and confidence. You can be as desirable as you want to be regardless of how you look or how much you earn. Women are no more in control of their sexual response than men are, and once a woman is responding to you sexually she will rationalise sleeping with you on her own.

            • @Adam

              “….she will rationalise sleeping with you on her own.”

              Yes, rationalize is the operative word, indeed.

            • Adam Blanch says:

              We all rationalise our choices Jules, If I could go back and make more rational decisions about some of the women I’ve been attracted to I would have saved myself years of pain and strife.

            • @Adam…

              There is rationalization of a choice and then there solid a logically based reason for making a particular choice.

              The rational decisions to which you refer were really emotional decisions devoid of logic and reason.

              Cheers!

            • PursuitAce says:

              Kind of like you winning the argument by validating the PUA community while on a men’s site that supports feminism. Bravo my friend. Points made. Oh, and you too, Jules. Well done.
              Personally I like who I am. I like me so much that I’m just changing for me and me alone. If half of the world’s genders sees that as some kind of rejection of them then so be it. That sounds like the classic definition of a personal problem. Nevertheless, just for the sake of clarity I will state this. I AM NOT REJECTING YOU. I still like you. Your gender is significantly more interesting then my gender. Even when you are annoying me with your “you need to change” comments. So live long and prosper.

            • I’ve always found it interesting that the PUA movement says that it’s all about empowering men yet many PUA’s seem to be simply obsessed — in fact they dedicate every aspect of their lives — to making themselves more attractive to women. All their validation as human beings seems to come from how many women they have sex with and how attractive those women are. I find this attitude rather strange. It seems like women actually have all the power in this scenario. PUA’s talk so much about howmthey are taking power back from women, it starts to sound like a desperate rationalization for the fact that they are basing their entire existence on letting women’s choices define them.

            • @Sarah….

              Well, I do not know much about PUA. But, if you were a man and was not getting hardly any sex, then certainly I can see where it could be construed as “empowering.”

              It is not different than a woman who is validated by how many guys find her desirable.

              But women also base their sole existence of men’s choices. I don’t see where women have a leg up in any sense over even the worst of men when it comes to sex.

            • PursuitAce says:

              I guess there’s very little I’m allowed to post now. Maybe I’m down to zero. Anyway I feel that you and Jules have made some good comments. I hope it advances the discussion and gives some insights to the lurkers here. You might want to hurry though, or you may find yourself in the same boat as me…LOL.

            • @PursuitAce,

              Thanks!

              I am not anti feminist in that I support improving and recognizing the human dignity of women. I am just anti the lack of openness and honesty displayed by too many women.

              I am a social and political conservative. Always have been and always will be. I am a freedom lover. All I see on the Left is an increasing desire to restrict personal freedoms and thoughts under the guise of “moderation”, political correctness, etc.

              The elite of the Left some how think THEY know what is best for people. Sort of like what I saw when I lived in Bulgaria. The people might not always get it right, but the individual should be free to choose. Freedom Works!

              I believe honest and open discourse mean we have to hear and listen to ALL points of view without name calling……

              While I have some dislikes about this site, overall I view it in a positive light. It is a great place for men and women to offer views, ideas, and thoughts.

            • Adam Blanch says:

              The further people go to the left the more they start to look like the people on the extreme right. I am anti-feminist, but pro equality and pro human rights.

            • Personally, I’m very left-wing, but I feel very uncomfortable with political correctness. The assumption of political correctness is if you say something and it causes offence, you are automatically the guilty party, and the person who is offended is the victim. I think at it’s inception the intentions of political correctness were good, and there to protect the vulnerable from hate, but hate hasn’t been dealt with by forcing these things underground, they’ve just caused them to be unexpressed, the upshot of which is …

              a) genuine prejudices don’t get challenged by rational argument so they persist. I miss a good political argument. But nowadays it’s “you can’t say that because it’s politically incorrect”; my view is “it’s also wrong, I want to say why it’s wrong, not just it’s politically incorrect – that’s like we assume the argument is over and we won. The fact that prejudiced views are still held means we haven’t won; thrusting our noses in the air and saying ‘sorry, your views are no longer valid’ actually makes it look like we don’t have an argument.
              b) by being driven underground prejudices fester and become more bitter and resentful – there is a dangerous rise in the extreme political right that I think is coming about because a lot of people think “oh these guys are saying those things I’ve been thinking but haven’t been allowed to say”
              c) Genuinely good-intentioned views that somehow deviate from the orthodoxy of political correctness get tarred with the same brush as the extremist and prejudicial views; so issues that should be discussed because we should be trying to understand them, aren’t; so it suppresses any evolution of ideas. Essentially the concept of “political incorrectness” is not a million miles from “thought crime”.

              Actually, with reference to thought crime, Orwell was a socialist, like myself, but he could see within the socialist movement a faction of dogmatic rigid-minded people that, if they went unchecked, would be actually antithetical to what socialism was supposed to be about. They might be revolutionary or reforming within the broader social framework, but within the movement they were reactionary, and resistent to new ideas and once the revolution has happened they would be the new agents of repression. Now of course, there never was a socialist revolution; what actually happened instead is we got a libertarian revolution economically, but we had a liberal revolution in terms of social attitudes. I wish it had been the other way round, quite frankly. I’d prefer that we were a little less economically unequal and competetive (which would deal with a lot of prejudice right there, because much of it is scapegoating others for our misery – why can’t they be suffering more, and me be suffering less? Like woolly monkeys in an electrofied cage trying to stand on each other to avoid the shocks.) but that we were more free to express our opinions however obnoxious they might be!

              Because, in fact, when I consider it, expressing a view that everyone is comfortable with and finds agreeable is wasted air. No one is challenged or provoked to thought by an uncontroversial idea, we have nothing to learn from an uncontroversial idea. We need to be surprised by other people’s views and get to think to ourselves “I’m not sure if I agree with that. Do I agree with that?” and look for that answer in ourselves rather than a learnt by rote canon of received wisdom.

              So I hope this reply offends someone. :-) All objections gratefully received.

            • Sorry, Jules, I was completely off-topic there with a very long post; I just was picking up on your comment regarding the left and wanted to demonstrate that the left aren’t universally in favour of political correctness. Like all “isms” it’s a broad church.

            • @joseph…

              You’re fine! I happen to agree with you even though we are at opposite ends of the political spectrum. But, that is what open and honest dialogue is all about.

              We will never move forward and make progress so long as voices are silenced.

              “Letting a hundred flowers blossom and a hundred schools of thought contend is the policy for promoting progress in the arts and the sciences and a flourishing socialist culture in our land.” – Mao

  50. Your numbered tips are all great.
    And while I agree that men should not be demonized but judged individually by their behavior, I think the source of why boys become “pursuers” it is not because authority fingers wag fingers at us while we are atill young and innocent, but because from a very young age, males are taught to be aggressive and take what we want, to succeed at any cost, to play a bit rough with the rules if it means winning. Therefore we internalize the idea that this behavior, and the power gleaned from it, elevates us. That we are entitled to whatever we consider “the spoils” and judge other men on what possessions they have, including their partners, whom become objectified because if life is about winning, everything good in it is a trophy, a flag to be captured. And we certainly base our self-worth on it. And sometimes those who struggle feel this sense of failure and project it back at women, insisting that women have the power because men base their confidence on the ability to pursue women (take a look at the revolting statements of MRA groups, for example).
    Do we chastise young boys for behavior that is normal? On occasion, but only very recently. Men have taken what they wanted long before we taught girls to say no to boys’ rough-housing. It would be healthier to teach kids in the manner you mentioned above, but we must also change what we teach all children to base their self-respect upon. If success justifies all means, we will see predatory behavior in every aspect of our behavior.

    • Thomas Pluck
      This is a great analyses and in fact it also explains way many women reject men sexully even in relationship. Because when you approach a women for lovemaking with the attitudes decribed here it is unpleasant. I can even be repulsive .

      • @Iben…

        “Because when you approach a women for lovemaking with the attitudes decribed here it is unpleasant. I can even be repulsive.”

        Really? You can’t be serious!

        So, you would have me believe that most women find this behavior unpleasant? Hmmmmm.

  51. I always just thought sex drive was simply about wanting what you can’t have.

    And I’ve always wondered whether attractive people (in either the beauty or charm sense) who get lots of invitations are sexually attracted to fewer members of a given group of people in the other sex than unattractive people are to the same group. That would make a pretty strong case.

    If this is the case, then all men in a society have to agree to play hard to get until the whole thing changes. Of course, that’s never going to happen. So things are never going to change. I heard once that the roles were created ages ago when there was a war and all the women agreed to deny sex until the guys stopped fighting. Who knows…

  52. ScreamPhoenix says:

    Does anybody know how I can stop getting emails from this site every time someone replies to this article? When I checked the “Notify me of followup comments via e-mail” I thought I would only get e-mails in response to what I commented on/responded on. Apparently not :/

  53. welllokaythen says:

    Have there been any trans men who have gone public with their opposition to these ads, or are others trying to speak for them?

    I can see how (some) trans people might find these ads offensive. They’re based on the shock value of seeing a “pregnant man,” which is assumed to be impossible or monstrous. I’m not sure that possible offensiveness is decisive in whether or not those ads should run.

    I just don’t think ads like this would really “land” for a teenage male audience. I wasn’t having sex as a teenager, but even if I was I already had a big belly, so these images would not have discouraged me. Kids having sex with each other may not really be into all that lame “consequences of your actions” stuff.

    It would be great, though, if this campaign generated an even larger examination of pregnancy in this country. Adults are not a whole lot better than teens when it comes to preventing unplanned pregnancies. American adults are hardly great role models when it comes to preventing “oopsie” babies, since last I heard about 50% of all American pregnancies are unplanned, and that includes all ages.

    These ads also assume that people under the age of sexual consent actually count in “planned” and “unplanned” categories. How can someone be legally unable to consent AND have a “planned” pregnancy? It’s the teen pregnancies that are PLANNED that should be even more scandalous. Who are these teenagers who got pregnant on purpose!? Are we counting 17-19 year olds?

    • welllokaythen says:

      Sorry, this last comment was meant the article about the ads showing pregnant men. This previous sentence is not one I’ve ever written before….

  54. Flyingkal
    You wrote:

    “3. Hugging your partner, kissing him and looking him deep in the eyes, just to get his full attention to tell him all about today’s trials and tribulations at work, is probably not going to help you have more sex.”

    Well Flyingkal,are you good at cuddling ?
    She kisses you.she hugs you…..not bad.

    How about some cuddling and simply relaxing close to her? She might warm up if you are not in such a hurry all the time.
    Women are not like light bulbs that can be switched off and on fast. We warm up slowly but stay warm for a long long time. In fact the high arrosal often comes the next day. Are you around then?

    • @Iben…

      “In fact the high arrosal often comes the next day. Are you around then?”

      Which women? Women kiss with their eyes closed anyway.

      Yes, I agree with are like crock pots while men are like microwave ovens.

      But, if the woman lack interest in you sexually (for whatever reason), no cuddling, kissing, relaxing close to her is going to warm her up.

      You just don’t under stand how a sex starved man feels and think. It’s like a person who has not eaten for several days. They are not interested in waiting for their food. They just want to eat! This is the reality with so many men.

      While married, I endure sex once a month for over 10 years. It was always after her cycle AND the same position (spooning). Never any consideration for what I wanted or when I wanted sex. Any other times I initiated sex, either I was rebuffed or hurried to get it over with.

      So, it became an enormous turn off for me. Then she begin to bicth and complain when I ceased sex totally. When I told her why (that the whole thing was just not worth it) she could not understand my feelings. When I moved to another bedroom, it was my way of saying, “I am done.” And I was.

      A lot of these things just do not work because so many women have married men whom they NEVER found sexually attractive. So, this matter must be dealt with BEFORE suggesting the cuddling, kissing, and relaxing close to her.

      Just saying Iben.

    • FlyingKal says:

      Iben,
      How about some cuddling and simply relaxing close to her? She might warm up if you are not in such a hurry all the time.

      I don’t know if it is because you are taking the quote out of context, or if you do it deliberately, but You are totally off the mark of the post you are quoting.

      The list was addressed to women wanting to have more sex in their relationship.
      It has nothing to do with me…

      Or you can read the list again and tell me with a straight face if you think that is the common behaviour of a woman who really is interested in having sex with her partner!

  55. A message to Flyingkal

    I do not get e-mails of all posts and comments,only a few.
    That is why I am not responding.
    GMP needs to improve,it is too hard to find comments and posts in long debates.

    Other websites handle this better.

  56. Jules

    You have some hypotheses about women,and seem to think men are more faithful and need less variety.

    Read this:
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/05/130528122319.htm

    “In this new study, women actually reported more sexual partners than men when they were both hooked up to a lie detector and thought they had to be truthful.
    “Society has changed, even in the past 10 years, and a variety of researchers have found that differences between men and women in some areas of sexual behavior have essentially disappeared,” she said.”

    Can we trust this study? I don’t know.

    • @Iben….

      Hello!

      “In this new study, women actually reported more sexual partners than men when they were both hooked up to a lie detector and thought they had to be truthful.”

      But this is really a common sense result. Are nearly 20%-30% of women involuntarily celibate? Clearly not. So, intuitively, I know women have far more sex partners than men over a lifetime. Women have far greater opportunities. Most men do not get to kiss a lot of toads! Hence, it must be true. Now, if that is the case, then it is their business.

      Due to slut shaming…..few women will admit such. Also, just the way women’s sexuality is geared, I always believed it to be true. So much of what women do sexually is hidden. When she decides to fuck the male tennis instructor or the carpet installer, it is done with great discretion….

      No, men are NOT more faithful than women. Research shows both sexes are now equal in that area. However, I do maintain that women seem to NEED more sexual variety, while men simply WANT it. If we don’t get it, we still can enjoy sex. I am not so sure about women.

      I think the study is valid and the results can be trusted.

      Thanks for the resource.

  57. FlyingKal

    Sorry. I misunderstood..
    And I can’t find the list.
    I have no experience with men that do not want sex,a lot of sex.
    They are not attracted to me.

    Move on FK and find a new love,a new woman to share your life with. I know that is difficult but we don’t have much choice do we?
    We can be alone or go out and look. Many women are alone and want a male companion,a close friend and lover.

  58. I was glad to read this. I was glad to find this site – I don’t think I can talk to anyone about my feelings about sex and courtship because I’ll be seen as weak by some of the men (and some of the women, to be fair) and by women who don’t see me as weak will probably suspect I’m trying to get into their beds using pity tactics – or maybe they won’t; maybe my female friends do trust me better than that – but that is the suspicion.

    I’m too old to be this conflicted still (42) but three years ago I came out of a ten year relationship with a girl who took the initiative after two years of my failing to; in fact of all the relationships I’ve had I think I only took the initiative in two. Actually in both of these it was a case of persistence paying off; and this is a problem, our experience, as men, is that persistence pays off, whereas throwing your hands up at the first objection and saying “sorry. my mistake” is read very much as ‘not really being that interested’.

    I was out with my co-writer last night. Of sorts we have a friendship, but it’s a friendship of convenience; I’d started writing with him before I got the full measure of what sort of man he is, and he’s not the sort of person I would want to socialise with on a regular basis. He is at his worse when he’s with his old carousing buddy. They will talk about the conquests they’ve had. Ironically, it’s a small world, I know his old carousing buddies ex-girlfriend; I know her because I’ve worked with her for years. She was engaged to him before the split. The split is amicable, but all her friends (apart from me) are saying “I thought you two were going to wind up together” and being sympathetic and what I want to say is “I’ve met him. I’ve seen how he is with other men and I can tell you he’s a misogynistic shit who treats sex like a sport and you’re better off without him”, but naturally that could be hurtful and less than helpful; and certainly not something you bring up out of the blue, and the natural conversational opportunity has not arisen.

    So my co-writer is talking in one of his anecdotes about how his last girlfriend had asked how many women he’d slept with and he rounded it down because he was aware the full figure might appall her. He rounded it down… to fifty.

    …from one hundred and fifty.

    I wanted to say “what would be more impressive is if you could name them and say what made each one special.”

    Now, to be fair, the guy clearly has a problem. If a woman had the same stats her friends would sit her down and say “you obviously have a problem. You’re clearly using sex to deal with something else.” but he knows full well that we’re supposed to see this statistic as an achievement and sign of his alpha-maledom.

    Here’s the issue of course; he’s had sex with (I know his choice of verb would be “done”) 150 women – there are 150 women whose concept of what a man’s sexuality is like are partly based on him, and I would say another 150ish probably that are based on his mate, but I think there may be quite a few in the intersection between the two sets. I’ve had ten lovers in all – as I say eight of those were the initiators of those encounters – so that’s ten women who’s view of a man’s sexuality is like is partly based on me. Or to put it another way, those of us who give a bad impression give a bad impression to far more women than those who give a good impression. When you think about it, it’s no wonder that women have such a negative view of our entire sex. It’s no wonder women are cautious and distrusting of men.

    The thing is, I suspect my response to that show of distrust is “I’m sorry my mistake” and go along just being friends, and the woman’s response to that is “just as I thought; he clearly wasn’t all that into me.”

    • Joseph
      You are right !

    • @Joseph…

      “Or to put it another way, those of us who give a bad impression give a bad impression to far more women than those who give a good impression. When you think about it, it’s no wonder that women have such a negative view of our entire sex. It’s no wonder women are cautious and distrusting of men.”

      I must respectfully disagree.

      The men who have given a bad impression are a select few. The majority of men treat women well. That majority is grateful to have a woman! Remember an estimated 20%-30% of men are involuntarily celibate. So, how is it that more men have given women bad impressions?

      Also, in my view, too many women chase after the wrong men. Many go after womanizers……always to rationalize just why they did so. As my Dad once said, “If you lay down with a dog with flees, then don’t be surprise if you get bitten too!”

      You friend who has “done” 150 women keeps getting women it bet. Right? Jesse James, the motorcycle guy, keeps getting the best women, including Sandra Bullock. Right? So, just who is responsible for this? The women of course. They know what they are getting but persist anyway.

      So, again I ask just how is that too many men have given a bad impression to women than the number of good men who present a good representation?

      • I think you misunderstand me; what I mean is the select minority that treat women badly spread “experience of themselves” wider as it were, so more women have experience of the bad ones than experience of the good ones. I never said, or certainly never meant to be interpreted as saying that the majority of us give a bad impression. I mean the ones who give a bad impression, by the very nature of the wide net they cast, give that bad impression to a greater number.

        • OK. I did misunderstand your point.

          But….the reason more women have the negative experiences of the few bad apples is because women freely choose to consort with these men.

          Your friend who has “done” 150 women did not have to rape a single one. They all freely gave sex to him. Maybe he deceived some…..However, women are more perceptive than men. Women can read a man better than a man can read a woman.

          Therefore, if they (women) played with fire and got burned, then how is that the fault of the man? Most of these women KNOW what they are getting. However, many choose to ignore it because the guy so “turns them on……”

          You cannot place ALL the blame on men. Women bear responsibility as well. If the guy is a toad or cad, I don’t think it is too difficult to see so.

          Too many women simply like to pretend…

          • To a certain extent we can blame the women and their choices; also 150 women are not likely to have all the same motivations. To one in particular I knew, they wanted complication-free sex, because they’d just gone through a break-up or something and someone who develops emotional attachments to the people they have sex with is not “complication-free”, so in those cases his open callousness is an asset to him. To others he does fool them, he is unashamedly and unbashfully tactile in a way most of us would think “I can’t do that; because I have to respect her boundaries”. He also comes across as amazingly confident. He can also pull the sensitivity angle – it’s quite nauseating because it doesn’t ring true – he is very good at telling people what they want to hear, without necessarily meaning it.

            But I have been wondering why misogynistic men do find it easier to find partners, and a few things occured to me

            a) They don’t have to be that “in” to someone to see them as worth going for, it’s all about the score, so they can move on and try elsewhere very quickly.
            b) They only have to think about themselves – since the other person is of no importance to them – whereas personally I would worry “am I going to make this person feel uncomfortable?”, “Do I appear to be promising more than I actually am?” – Even my friends assume it’s rejection I worry about and I think “please, I’m well past the age of worrying about rejection. I worry about my effect on another human being.” I don’t think any of that would bother him.

            Maybe I’m putting the cart before the horse, maybe men who get girls easily naturally value them less simply because they are easy.

            But actually that day was quite an eye-opener. The weekend just gone, I’d been on a blind date with a girl I didn’t find that attractive or have much connection with – she was pleasant company but not someone I’d ever fancy, and I didn’t see much point seeing again, and I was deliberating whether I should contact her any way just to say thanks, but I didn’t want to have to say “by the way I don’t fancy you” which would be very presumptuous when I had no reason to think that she’d fancy me; or was it okay to just not contact her. So the first social contact I have is with this group – it’s my co-writers birthday drinks. To make this less complicated I’m going to have to assign names, but for obvious reasons I don’t want to use real ones. So let’s call the co-writer Steve, it’s not his name, and his other even slimier friend Simon; in addition in the group are four others.

            So one, let’s call him Tom, I think is a sensitive person – certainly the most considerate of the group, handsome actually, but thinks he’s ugly, and makes himself the butt of jokes about it, but he does regularly go out trying “on the pull” (do you have that expression? I think the equivalent american expression might be “cruising for chicks”) with Steve, and it is his persistent failure in this regard that leads to his low self esteem, IMO. So anyway, when I was away from the group with him, I told him about the girl I’d been on the blind date with and said about the dilemma, and his response was “Definitely! Definitely call her.” and I’m thinking “Just out of politeness right” and he said “you might still get a shag out of it”, and I thought, seriously have you not been listening to me; I do not find her attractive! And then I thought “oh”, because something else came to me – he had an anecdote about a girl he slept with who he couldn’t get to leave the next day, and this always seemed odd to me; why would you not want a girl to hang with you the day after sleeping with them? And then the penny dropped. You want to be like Steve and Simon. You are competing with them, and sadly, to him, who is actually like I say a considerate and caring person, he’s still infected by the influence of these friends to his detriment.

            I’ve never encountered this before; I’ve always socialized in very mixed groups; sometimes the girls in that social network have described men like this as being representative and the guys in the group have had to defend our entire sex and say we’re not; so it’s been kind of a revelation to realise, “oh, some of us are” and like I say, they are the ones, however much of a minority they are, they are the ones that make an impression; and to make matters worse, women try to emulate them with the justification that guys do that all the time and it’s okay when they do it. Says who? I don’t say it’s okay.

            • @Joseph…

              You friend who has “done” 150 women (nice round #) sounds like a sociopath. Such people are really great at manipulating others….

              Obviously, most men are not sociopaths. What is baffling to me is women are very good at reading most men. Yet, for some odd reason so many of them end up sleeping with these manipulative and uncaring men. I just cannot figure out why.

              Maybe it is the confidence and being sociopaths?

            • Yes, I’ve come to that conclusion myself. Effectively he is a confidence trickster – his success in all walks of life, not just in sex but in other things too, are due to his confidence more than his competence, and his willingness to cheat – I’ve played board games with him, and I’ve noticed if he sees there is an opportunity to cheat he sees that as a flaw in the game design that he’d be a fool not to exploit, rather than his willingness to cheat being a flaw in himself. I think he is a borderline sociopath.

              Nevertheless sociopaths do have an advantage attracting women, because (as I’ve just said in a comment elsewhere) self-doubt or self-reproach are unattractive qualities to a woman, whereas a sociopath’s own failings don’t touch him, he doesn’t even acknowledge them.

  59. Why am I not allowed to post?

  60. (Sorry if this is a duplicate. I’m experiencing technical problems at this end.)

    Taking the “demon” metaphor further, I wouldn’t mind if male sexual desire towards women was demonized sometimes. Sexual attraction can be impish, mischievous, chaotic, dangerous, and seem kind of devilish sometimes. A “demon” is not an entirely useless metaphor.

    I wouldn’t mind male sexuality being demonized if there was a lot more romanticization to balance it out a little bit, if we could imagine it as an angel half as much as we do as a demon. Where is male sexual attraction towards women treated as angelic, divine, empowering, enlightening, or spiritually positive? I’m not talking about treating the hetero male perspective as the norm or straight men dominating the culture. That’s not romanticizing male desire. Men are probably just as responsible for demonizing male desire as women are. (If you don’t think men do that, think about how you feel about the prospects of your daughter dating a man someday – what does that make you think of male sexuality?)

  61. As somewhat probably older than you are (50-something) woman, I find your article compelling in its truthfulness, but a little sad in its assumptions. Our culture does definitely support the “men as predators” paradigm, and is very damaging. However, there have always been those of us who have viewed sexuality in perhaps “exception to the rule” terms, i.e. seen men as often very vulnerable and not as predators. I may be somewhat unique in that my first experience of sexual intercourse occurred at a young age, with a partner who was equally as young and inexperienced as I, and I was definitely the pursuer. I think this made me aware of the power of my own sexuality from the get-go.
    That being said, I am saddened and alarmed by the dichotomy that has evolved which robs women of theri sexual assertiveness, and men of their humanity. Keep writing and talking and encouraging us all to be who we are!!

    • Quiet But Speaking says:

      I like what you just wrote. My perspective is one of being a mother to all sons, viewing this predator attitude thrown at boys who are innocent and just learning about their own bodies in Jr high and high school, and how hateful the world can be toward them. Thank you for your article. My young men are wonderful, decent human beings.

      • FlyingKal says:

        Quiet But Speaking:
        Hi and thank you for sharing your thoughts.
        My perspective is of growing up as a boy. I think it was actually more of a pursuer attitude, than a “predator”. Meaning that it’s few men who can get some kind of romantic attention from women without actively pursuing it and working for it.
        And ten I think that starting out as a pursuer, if you fail repeatedly to get some kind of attention, you either start to reinforce it (trying to imitate what you see are working for other people), eventually becmoing th “predator”. Or, you just roll it back and realize that you were not cut out for this.

      • @QuietButSpeaking…..

        Thanks for your wonderful comments. It is one of the few common sense remarks I have read.

        Yes, most men are wonderful and decent human beings.

        This “male predator” and “rape culture” nonsense is just that, nonsense.

      • I believe that the way American gender-feminists are “Empowering” themselves (mostly with their Alliances with American law enforcement) are in fact slowly but surely turning hetero-sexual relationships into a legal liability for guys. I believe the consequences of these Empowerment Alliances will have staggering long term effects.

  62. Michael says:

    As a parent of two boys I got to watch them go through high school. They were both athletes, good looking, smart, funny,and had a lot of girls around. To my surprise, they weren’t that interested in sex. Since their teammates (wrestling and soccer) often hung out at my home, I soon realized that their attitude was anything but unique. Now when i was growing up sex was an obsession not just for me, but for all my friends. The discussion here reminds me of those days–except, of course, women’s part in it. In any case, i took a long look at this new attitude of my children. What I discovered was that these boys thought of girls as a pain in the neck– always complaining about something, always insisting that men be this way and that. The connection between sex and having children was non existent. Sex was supposed to be fun, but it wasn’t that much fun because once you had it you had this girl hanging around and she was just a pain in the ass. They had been taught or simply absorbed in the surrounding culture, that girls and boys were pretty much the same except for the plumbing. You rub the parts together and it feels good. But apparently it didn’t feel that good to them that they were willing to have girls hanging around. After all if they were supposed to be the same as boys they weren’t as good at sports and you couldn’t fool around with them without their getting their knickers in a twist at unpredictable times. Perhaps you think they were gay? One of them wondered about it but admitted that he was not attracted to men either.

    Now other boys in this school were having sex like gangbusters– with all the sturm and drang that adolescent sex produces. It was the total obsession of their lives. But they were almost all losers. Sex had become something that you do when you have nothing better to do. Those whose lives were filled with school and sports and other activities that really occupied them found sex to be a waste of time. “Scratching an itch.” It’s not that the good students and good athletes were having no sex, but it was a minor part of their lives, often engaged in in an experimental way and abandoned when discussion with their friends confirmed that it was no big deal. They had more important things to do– go to practice and get good grades.

    Women often complain that there are no real men around any more. They are there. But they are not interested in you.

    • Hello Michael

      The thing to note here is that not all good looking athletic guys are promiscuous. But almost all promiscuous men are good looking and well built (barring rich/famous men) There is a very strong correlation between male promiscuity and physical attractiveness (in that order..not reverse). Even sociologists admit that.
      Not so much for women.

      • Michael says:

        I think sex is a whole lot less important than it used to be. At least in liberal circles. Gay, straight, who cares. For people who are really trying to do something special it’s a waste of time. It’s like eating too much candy except that you’ve got a girl hanging around. I think the modern feminist middle class woman has nothing really that men should want. Most men don’t really like hanging out with women. They used to be mysterious and alluring. Now we are told from the beginning that we are all really the same.

        • Hi Michael

          Are sex and women so boring for the young men today that they not even watch and use porn everyday?
          Great!

          (No girls hanging around your neck when you use porn is there?)

          • Dunno about him but I love hanging around women whom I enjoy the company of. I also very much love hanging around women I have a crush on or have a relationship with. I very very much love sex with women. Maybe I am rare:P But I very much have a high sex drive.

            I think he might mean they are too busy focused on a career to care about chasing partners?

            • Michael says:

              I don’t know if the word “career” is fair. One wanted to be the best wrestler he could be. He did get very good even though he started late, and he won a couple of big tournaments. He also knew he wanted to get into a really good school. Practice and study takes up a lot of time, but the word “career” makes it sound like there was no real passion in these choices. Sex, when it is not about children is about what? From what I hear it is mostly fun. But people who have something they really want to do are not that interested in fun.

          • Michael says:

            I’m sure you are right. But it is all just fun. All of us have to decide whether life is just about trying to enjoy yourself or whether there is some big thing you want to accomplish. Most choose fun, as you say. Women take time and money. You have to be different when you are around them. They separate you from your friends. Or haven’t you found that to be so?

        • Michael

          I’m going to pull a statistic out of my ass and claim that for every guy who can get laid a lot, but chooses not to do so, there are atleast 5 to 10 who want to get laid a lot but cant.

          But I understand that their existence is less relevant.

          • @Tim….

            I strongly concur.

            Again, it goes to the ultra selectivity of women in partners in America. Fifty percent (50%) of us are automatically deemed unattractive by most women.

            If you have $$$$$, it is the great equalizer. If you do not then it comes down to either physical/sexual attractiveness (regardless of whether a she wants to date the guy) or looks.

            Lastly, a big factor is going to be where a woman is in her life stage. If she wants to get married or be in LTR, then sex is less of an issue. But, for the guy who is or has been “undersexed” most of his life, it is a HUGE expectation. Herein lies the problem.

        • John Anderson says:

          @ Michael

          “I think sex is a whole lot less important than it used to be.”

          I know it is to me and not because I’m middle aged. I first realized it in my early 20s. I knew this woman who was utterly gorgeous and a freak in bed. I still have part of her slip as a memento. She didn’t have a thought in her head. One time she caught me off guard when I was thinking of something else and asked me on a date. I hadn’t seen her in awhile since she was going to school in a different town and instinctively said yes. About a minute later, I was like what was I thinking. The sex wasn’t worth the several hours of idiotic conversation.

          On the other hand, I have several female friends I don’t want to sleep with who’s company I thoroughly enjoy. One of them has a crush on me and yes, she’s in the friend zone, but we were friends before she developed the crush. I think it’s the emotional connection she got attracted to. Sex is great, but you can’t base a relationship on that alone.

          • And what is a relationship, anyway? Now a marriage is something, especially when you want to have children together. Now that is important, and big, but I do feel it happenswhen a man embraces the extremely pleasurable woman’s world, the world of day to day happenings. But casual sex, well it might feel good or it might not. For a man in the modern world there is always the “can I get it up” anxiety. Even if you never once couldn’t, it’s there. And I would bet there are very few men who didn’t “fail” like this more than once. But what does it prove other than that you didn’t really desire the girl? But of course even after the “can I get it up” anxiety is allayed by getting hard, there’s the “can I last long enough” anxiety. To make yourself last longer many men try to think unsexy thoughts so as not to get so excited. In other words they try to make sex less pleasurable to themselves so as to make it last longer. When they succeed they have long lasting unpleasureable sex. Then when it is done they feel obligated to tell the girl how wonderful it was. Because even after all that exertion if you roll over into that wonderful languid state after orgasm the girl will complain you are neglecting her and only want one thing.

      • I tend to disagree with the point that all promiscuous men are good looking. I feel that the ‘gene’, or thought process is inherent in many men. A man that is average looking, or lower, by media standard’s, can be just as hurtful as the ‘hunk’…so if people are going to get hurt, which of the lesser evil’s are picked..? I think probably the one that is easier on the eye’s…just a thought.

      • Tim

        Then how do you define promiscuity ?
        Take a trip to any country that has a lot of sex tourism ,for example Thailand.
        Then tell us if all the men you see there with a new girl every night there are georgous ,good looking men men?
        What they are doing is also promiscuous behavior.

        • Michael D says:

          Promiscuity is always defined as “anyone who is having more sex than I am.” Just this focus on the term diminishes this great article.

        • I thought it was understood I wasn’t referring to men who have sex with hookers.

          • Tim
            Not all Thai are prostitutes.
            It is seems to be a more sex friendly culture. Men have told me of their vacations to Thailand and how easy it was to get in contact with women without any money changing hands.

            I have asked myself if these women hope to find a husband in a wealthy country in the west,and feel they have to act fast. It is impossible for me to say,but not all Thai are prostitutes.

            • “Thailand has a sex-friendly culture”

              It is not more sex-friendly than Scandinavia. But Stockholm isn’t on the radar of horny young men around the world looking to get laid. Bangkok is. What does it mean?

            • Tim
              I have never been to Thiland but it seems that nearly everybody else have. It is a destination for family vacations.
              Why do people travel there instead of to Sweden?Maybe because the climate is so much better,people there are polite,friendly and hospitable while Scandinavians are more closed up. It takes more time to make friends with Scandinavians. Scandinavia is also expensive while Thailand is not. You can rent a good quelty apartment there for $160-320 / month. I guess it will cost at lest ten times as much to rent an appartmemt in Stocholm.The nature is great,food is good. Maybe the hotels are good?

              If the Thai culture is sex friendly for both men and women I don’t know.
              I follow daily the best debate site in my country. A teacher writes there every day and since he is happily married to a woman from Thailand he tells us that he is glad his wife came from thar culture. And his opinion is that this culture is sex positive.
              I am not qualified to say anything about Thai culture other than I see many from Thailand marry Scandinavians.
              On my friends father (70) is married to a woman from Thailand(55). They are deeply in love. My friends thinks the Buddhist mindset is one of the reasons why that marriage is successful.

            • I suspect many of the women are sex friendly with westerners because they are looking for a wealthy man to support not just them, but their extended family. I once read an article (don’t have a link now, unfortunately) about villages in Thailand where practically the whole village is surviving on money from American husbands. Some of the men even settle in Thailand rather than takng their wife back to the states. Often they are retired American men whose pensions go a long way in Thailand. However, a couple men were quoted about the economic pressure they were under to support their wives’ families.

              I’d be curious to find out if young Thai women are equally sex friendly with the Thai boys down the road. I expect not. My impression is that young women’s sexuality is viewed as a commodity. Which is quite different from being sex positive.

            • Hi Sarah
              If and when sex is seen as an commodity this is not sex friendly. I totally agree with you.

              Still I would rather see my brother married to a woman from abroad than live unhappy as an incel all his life.

              Where he should travel out of America to find love I do not know,but I think it is better to look abroad than to be unhappy all your life and miss a family if that is what he dreams of. Most of a want a family and someone to share our life with.
              Whether you marry someone from Thailand,Russia, Ukraine, or somewhere else does not matter as long as both are sincere persons.
              The fact that you are born in a country with lover living standards than us does not mean you are a bad person,or a good digger. But I see your point Sarah.

              Tell me Sarah where on earth are the countries that are more relaxed about sexuality than the US.? Do you have any idea?

              I am not qualified to say anything about Thailand and if women there are friendly to Thai men. This is a subject I know nothing about,
              But not all women innThailand is poor. The woman that married my friends father(70 years old) owns her own restaurant. She is a business women and does not need his money. She probably will end up nursing him!

              I think we do injustice to all persons living in countries in Africa and Asia if we only see them as poor. Some are poor,others are not,

              If a man goes looking for a bride aboard he can find women with long university educations for example from Russia.

            • @Iben, I don’t know of any countries that are truly sex positive. Maybe there are some isolated tribes somewhere. I think the truth is that wherever there is a high value on women’s sexuality sexuality and fertility, which is pretty much everywhere, and men are willing to pay for it, women (or their families) have an incentive to get as much as they can for it. I completely understand why women from Thailand, the Ukraine or other developing countries would use their most valuable asset — their youth and attractiveness — to better themselves and their situation in life.

              In the United States, which is a capitalistic dog-eat-dog society, it’s not surprising that we’ve developed a mercenary attitude toward sex. So now you have pickup artists who see the pursuit of relationships with women as a brutal game where you are either a winner or a loser. If she’s attractive and you have sex with her and you don’t have to call her again and you can brag about your techniques on an online forum, you are a winner. If you actually liked her and hope you see her again, and think she’s a nice person, you are a pathetic chump. Similarly you have women who view men as a lifestyle commodity. They are looking for someone who can pay for a lot of stuff and impress their friends.

              Another issue is that where women are looked down on for being too promiscuous, women are forced to be selective about who they have sex with. I wasn’t a terribly hot chick in my youth, but even I probably could have had sex with dozens of men if I’d been willing to. However, I had very real fears of being labelled as a slut. I had a couple of one night stands in college and I was very careful not to tell even my closest friends,

              I would really like to live in a society where women were not shamed for being sexual and do not feel that they have to use their sexuality as a bargaining chip to get “stuff.” I’d also like to live in a society where men didn’t view getting sex as a competition or see me as an adversary who they have to manipulate into “giving it up.”. Are there any such societies? I don’t know.

            • Bay Area Guy says:

              @ Sarah

              Another issue is that where women are looked down on for being too promiscuous, women are forced to be selective about who they have sex with. I wasn’t a terribly hot chick in my youth, but even I probably could have had sex with dozens of men if I’d been willing to. However, I had very real fears of being labelled as a slut. I had a couple of one night stands in college and I was very careful not to tell even my closest friends,

              That, right there, is the problem. In spite of slut shaming, and the fact that you weren’t a terribly hot chick in your youth, you still could have had dozens of sexual encounters.

              How many men can say the same?

              The reason why slut shaming exists, and why studs are respected while sluts ridiculed is because men actually have to put in work to become studs. They have to develop confidence, dress better, deal with rejection after rejection, and overall cultivate better qualities. For women to be sluts, they simply have to be there (as Jim Jefferies once put it) and have a pulse.

              I personally have known fat, frumpy women who have had multiple sexual encounters. I have never known fat, unattractive men who have enjoyed similar experiences.

              If you want this problem to end, the sexual/dating marketplace needs to become more equitable for men, and women need to stop being so damn picky.

            • @BayAreaGuy

              You don’t see a contradiction in what you’re saying there? You’re complaining that women are more promiscuous than men, and yet you want them to be less picky? No, what you want is to diversify their pickiness, is what you want.

              I’ve long observed that girls with low self esteem sleep with everyone because they think they can’t be too picky, but guys with low self esteem sleep with no one because they can’t sell themselves. How can you sell a product you don’t believe in? And it is noticeable that I’ve been very bad in the sales jobs I’ve had as well.

              Women don’t realise how difficult it is for a guy, and boast about getting an ex out of their system by sleeping around, and when you say that isn’t an option for you they don’t believe you; they think “I can sleep around, why can’t you sleep around? That’s what guys do isn’t it?”

              But this is the thing, women being less picky isn’t going to improve the situation. In fact let’s suppose that it all comes down to confidence; if the model of dating is “I’m the salesman, she’s the customer, I’ve got to sell myself to her.” – well it’s obvious from that model why the girl with the low self esteem says “Well, I’m never going to get a better deal than this. I’m sold”, whereas the girl with higher self esteem says “I’m going to go away. Think about it. See what else is on the market.”; The guy being the salesman, well we know fast-talking sociopathic liars will always be good salemen – turn that negative into a positive – particularly with the modern commission based pressure sales that dominate the market – a conscience is a severe disadvantage; okay for the rest of us, we could only “sell” a product we personally thought was good, and we wouldn’t want to put the customer under pressure, we’d want to give them a chance to think; when we begin to realise the product is not of the best quality then you won’t even try to sell it and even try to deter customers; the worst kind is the guy with low-self esteem still trying to do the high-pressure sales thing, because he knows he’s lying, but he’s got to lie because he’s on commission, he’s nervous, he doesn’t make eye contact, his hands sweat – he is the epitome of a creep.

              The way to level that playing field isn’t for women to be less picky, it’s actually for them to be more picky and also to not expect men to always make the first move, have higher standards – I don’t mean go for the guys that are physically fittest, in fact ignore what the media tells them they should go for, but follow their heart, and hence diversify in their pickiness – actually do the things they keep telling us to do! Get to know someone, so you’re not taking forgranted the version of themselves they are “presenting” but the real person underneath, don’t buy into what the media tell you you should be after, become friends with a man and don’t let the fact that he is a friend be the reason for not sleeping with him – not fancying him is a good reason for not sleeping with him and if that’s the reason state it because that whole “don’t want to ruin our friendship” is a double-bind – we were told we were supposed to get to know you! Don’t see men as being either husband material or itch-scratchers, dispose of that dichotomy and let things be what they are; and reclaim the concept of love and romance for it’s own sake – not a goal-orientated process to fulfil a tickbox on the to do checklist (1. Shag around, 2. Get a husband). And don’t think that going without sex for a week means you’re hard done by; guys go without sex for years, sometimes.

              So, you’re wrong. In fact the fact that you think that girls should be less picky reflects on your self-esteem. You’re thinking if only they’d lower their standards enough they’d give me a chance. No, if they raise their standards enough they will look far enough to find you.

            • @Bay Area Guy, so are you saying I should have been less “picky” and gone ahead and had sex with dozens of guys in college (most of whom were simply drunk and willing to go home with anyone)? Is that the solution? That doesn’t sound so great to me for a number of reasons.

            • Bay Area Guy says:

              it’s actually for them to be more picky and also to not expect men to always make the first move, have higher standards – I don’t mean go for the guys that are physically fittest, in fact ignore what the media tells them they should go for, but follow their heart, and hence diversify in their pickiness – actually do the things they keep telling us to do!

              I agree regarding the “diversity their pickiness” part. Female pickiness wouldn’t be so much of a problem if they weren’t all picky in the same way.

              However, let’s be real here. None of what you just described above is ever going to happen.

              The only way female behavior is going to change is if there are significant social consequences for how they act.

            • Sarah

              Have you noticed that men who have slept with, say, 50 women are much less bothered about a woman’s sexual past, when settling down?

              It is the chicken and egg parable.

              You say women find fewer men sexually attractive because they get slut-shamed and have to be picky. I say women get slut-shamed because slut-shaming developed in response to an inherent difference in sexuality b/w men and women. It developed in order to ensure a monogamous society which would allow every man to have a woman.

              There is no basis of slut-shaming other than male sexual jealousy and insecurity. Its not because men think a woman with 50 partners has lost her value, is damaged goods, is worth less as a human being, has become ‘morally corrupted’ etc. Ofcourse religions and social values have simply given a cover to male insecurities so we can all pretend its an issue of morality. Religions were made by men to protect male interests.

              I have absolutely no disrespect for a woman who has slept with 100 men. But I would never want to get serious with one because (1) I’ve only had 2 partners in life and would like someone with a similar history and (2) I cannot measure up to her past. I am truthful enough to acknowledge that its just about me…not her. Do you think this is still slut-shaming?

              Other men are not so truthful and instead of acknowledging their own insecurity would rather scorn promiscuous women.
              .
              Slut-shaming is a direct result of male sexual jealousy. But why are men more sexually jealous than women? Consider this: People are more jealous and protective about something when its rare and difficult to obtain; when its wanted by many but can’t be had easily.
              Can we say this holds true for female sexuality? If female sexuality was in abundance and available to men in a relatively egalitarian way, why would men be jealous? Why would there be a rationale for jealousy? Why would our early male ancestors stifle a sexual utopia that they were perhaps enjoying by restricting female sexuality? Men love sex don’t they? Perhaps because there was no sexual utopia for men. Perhaps because unrestricted female sexuality had a tendency to exclude most men.

              My belief is that what we observe in the sexual realm of life, won’t be blamed on the double standard for long. They will have to come up with other explanations soon.

            • @Sarah…

              “I suspect many of the women are sex friendly with westerners because they are looking for a wealthy man to support not just them, but their extended family.”

              Correct. I agree.

              “I’d be curious to find out if young Thai women are equally sex friendly with the Thai boys down the road.”

              No. It is primarily Western men. Japanese men are the largest sex tourist in Thailand. Few of these women look for a husband among them.

              Yes, many many young Thai women, largely uneducated, are viewed as sex commodities. It is truly de-humanizing.

            • I lived in Thailand for a year (on a small island in the gulf), and as a Westerner I was constantly offered sex from ‘prostitutes’. I put that word in quotes because these girls weren’t really pros, they simply could not pass up the opportunity to provide for their families. Most of them lived elsewhere, either in Bangkok or in a rural village somewhere, and they’d come down to the tourist mecca for a season, in order to save up and return to their families a hero, with no questions asked. The actual locals, however, tended to be ‘prudes’, because their actions were known to all. Rather than being ‘sex friendly’, traditional Thai culture is actually quite conservative. Even the ‘sluttiest hos’ never went swimming in less than jeans and a t-shirt.

              Here’s an entertaining article about the Bangkok sex shows:

              http://gypsysattva.wordpress.com/the-ping-pong-banana-show-for-tourist-looking/

      • Here’s a straight male writing about sex:

        The lifeguard-fantasy has got to be a hot one for girls, sure; I see them looking. I can see them picturing how big and hard it gets and I feel like shouting: Hey, up here! Look at my eyes! I’ve got a lot going on inside my head too- do you even care about that?

        (“I’m not just a piece of meat” won’t quite elucidate, that thought blocked as being too “feminine”…)

        When I’m feeling horny do I buy my palm a few drinks chat it up and all the rest of that tripe? Throwaway f***s. Still in your bed. Some person you don’t even know and don’t care to now that you’re spent; immediately you wish you could wipe her away like mopping up nut with a floor sock. Sex appeals, but a pud-pounding always straightens the mind.

        Why can’t it be sweet, why can’t she be nervous of me?

        A beautiful sleeparound girl decides she wants man meat so she picks a hard body for a night. No more does he own her then though than would she expect him to deny himself a different vagina when he next feels the immediacy of his need.

        How can I find in this age what I crave?

        I dream of the one who saves it for me, fully aware of how priceless that makes her. Who has resisted her hormonal curiosity, who intuits an older wisdom than this current libidinousness- who bides her time and makes total love her ultimate goal… I know what I want and its transcendent soul-fire. I want a woman who would fucking DIE for me, is that too much to ask?

        Throwing a wide net one is bound to catch fish. But the old man of the sea carefully baits a lure irresistible to the singular prize he seeks, he sets a sharp hook designed to set deep but only if swallowed completely; not every nibble’s a marlin so the wise salt is patient; he bides his time and plays out line and patience because schooling fish are plentiful for the taking but what’s worth the wait is rare indeed; netfuls of clones affect in him antipathy.

        (Excerpted from ’13 Moons’ by Gypsysattva)

    • Hi micheal

      This most be an interesting new phenomena:
      Young men have no longer a sex drive.
      Interesting don’t you think?

      Do these young men also say NO to online porn on their computers or do they simply prefer porn to real ses with women/ girls?

      After all Michael you are the father and not one of these young men. Are you sure they share all their sexual secrets with you? Do teens do that in America? To me that sounds weird and even somewhat incestiuos.

      • @Iben…..

        “Jayne Dallas, a senior studying advertising who was seated across the table, grumbled that the population of male undergraduates was even smaller when you looked at it as a dating pool. “Out of that 40 percent, there are maybe 20 percent that we would consider, and out of those 20, 10 have girlfriends, so all the girls are fighting over that other 10 percent,” she said.”

        This was excerpted from a NYT article. So, you have a 40% male student ratio at most major universities and colleges in America. Right out of the gate 50% of these guys are tossed as unattractive. So, as the young lady notes, essentially are fighting and poaching the remaining 20%.

        See:
        http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/07/fashion/07campus.html?pagewanted=all

        Maybe this is why young boys are not interested in girls. The girls are clearly NOT interested in most boys. Rather only a select few. This continues both through college AND as young adult women. Hence, men turn to porn, prostitutes, and/or become involuntarily celibate.

        What other choice(s) do they have given this very very skewed view of attraction women in America have for men?

        • Jules

          Do we misunderstand each other?

          I now have read this article you show us here:
          “The phenomenon has also been an area of academic inquiry, formally and informally. “On college campuses where there are far more women than men, men have all the power to control the intensity of sexual and romantic relationships,” Kathleen A. Bogle, a sociologist at La Salle University in Philadelphia, wrote in an e-mail message. Her book, “Hooking Up: Sex, Dating, and Relationships on Campus,” was published in 2008.

          “Women do not want to get left out in the cold, so they are competing for men on men’s terms,” she wrote. “This results in more casual hook-up encounters that do not end up leading to more serious romantic relationships. Since college women say they generally want ‘something more’ than just a casual hook-up, women end up losing out.”

          • Iben

            “On college campuses where there are far more women than men, men have all the power to control the intensity of sexual and romantic relationships,” says Kathleen A. Bogle..

            “Women do not want to get left out in the cold, so they are competing for men on men’s terms,” she wrote. “This results in more casual hook-up encounters that do not end up leading to more serious romantic relationships. Since college women say they generally want ‘something more’ than just a casual hook-up, women end up losing out.”

            The hookup scene is not for every guy. Again the study/book you mention clearly misses guys’ perspective. For most guys, the only way is to pursue a single girl as a girlfriend and then have sex with her. The hook up scene on campuses is for relatively attractive and popular guys.

            Most guys cannot just “hookup” with girls. Most guys have to go through the ‘proper’ dating process – A process that takes time and effort. Don’t you see all the rules and do’s and dont’s of dating given to men by the ‘dating experts’.. There are many threads on GMP alone. Do you think guys who need this advice are “hooking up” with girls in real life? These guys are worried about what to say on a date, how to act and when to escalate things sexually. Do you think guys who just hookup with girls need this advice?

            The observation by Kathleen A Bogle is only partially true. Let me try and illustrate this with a hypothetical example.

            Suppose a girl has 3 dating prospects. 2 are average looking regular guys, but one is handsome and/or popular, and is her first choice. However this guy has plenty of other girls interested in him too which means she will have to compete for his attention. He will not put too much effort into pursuing her and she will have to date him on his terms. If he suggests having sex, she has a quick decision to make. He could say “Hey lets just have a sexual relationship first w/o strings and see where things go” She might think “Ok..I’ll give it a try..lets see how this plays out”. And there you go. They have “hooked up”

            This might contrast with her dating ‘strategy’ with the other 2 average looking guys. She might tell her female friend something along the lines of..”I’m seeing this guy these days, we’ve been going out for 2 months now, he was interested for some time and asked me out; he seems nice but we haven’t slept together because I haven’t made a decision yet”

            Notice the difference

            In the first case she has sex with the guy very early in the courtship process w/o requiring the effort, time and conditions she requires from the other guys. Those guys will probably have to be friends with her first for a while, then date and pursue her and she might only have sex with them if the relationship becomes “official”. She might tell them “I wait for 3 months atleast before I sleep with someone”
            But she would never dare tell this to the attractive guy.

            So this is what the author is referring to when she talks about “women wanting more than just hooking up, but doing that anyway because that’s the only way to begin relationships.” Yes, that’s the only way to begin relationships with attractive and popular guys with a lot of options…not with regular guys. They will still date girls the traditional way and they do.

            This was just a hypothetical example. The point here is that young women set very different rules, boundaries and terms in dating, with different guys

            • Tim
              It seems like neither the hoock up culture or the American mating rituals called ” dating” is the best way for men and women to start romantic relationships.
              But cultures don’t change over night.

              Maybe you can be creative and come up with a third way? That can fascinate the young women. You set the rules,and do things a new way. Be innovative !

              Hoock ups only lead to bed-jumping,STD and broken hearts.

            • @Iben…..

              Hello!

              You are absolutely correct! We need a “third road.” I find very little difference between dating and just having sex. I think we need to start to think outside the box.

            • John Anderson says:

              “Hoock ups only lead to bed-jumping,STD and broken hearts.”

              First of all, hooking up and sex is also fun. One of the best times I has in high school was when we had a retreat at a women’s college. I got a lot of action with college women over that weekend. It was probably statutory rape and lead to two discussions between me and my religion teacher, but I was the aggressor initially and don’t have any regrets at least at least now. I might view it differently in the future.

              When I was growing up, we had a small Asian community in a white neighborhood. Because a lot of people had to be petitioned over, these families knew each other from the Philippines. The families were friends. I was friends with one guy. My older brother was friends with his older sister. My younger sister was friends with his younger brother, etc. We grew up together as friends and many of the people in our group dated each other. It led to marriage for some.

              Maybe a third option could be something similar to that. I heard that arraigned marriages work because you don’t just marry the person, you marry the family.

            • Michael says:

              Hey, I’ve got the third way. Here it is.

              If you really really desire the guy, go and get him. Let nothing interfere.
              Same thing if you really desire the girl.
              But if you don’t really want him or her, if your desire is nonexistent or just a tepid pathetic thing, then don’t approach him or her looking for sex. It will be awful for both of you and sap the life out of you.

            • Michael
              If you with desire mean desire that includes a relationship I agree with you.:)
              Yes that would make life a lot easier for all of us.

            • Michael says:

              Desire is desire for possession, and what anyone means by possession is what what he finds in his inflamed imagination. It could be a one time thing.

            • John, I think what you are saying is true for some women but certainly not all. I’ve read articles arguing that the hysteria over “hookup” culture is overblown and that only a minority of students of either gender actively participate. I don ‘t know, I’m not in college, but I doubt it’s true that young women have really universally become as promiscuous as the media thinks.

          • Iben

            There was a study which said that on college campuses 15-20% of boys are having most of the (casual) sex.

            Another study says that on college campuses the median number of partners is higher for girls than boys.

            Another study says there are more virgins boys on college campuses than girls. (ironic isn’t it..given that girls face slut-shaming and judgement more than boys and by that logic there should be more virgin girls)

            Yet another study says that less attractive and overweight girls have more sex partners, are more adventurous than more attractive ones.

            Iben, I can go on and on with all kinds of evidence. It will point to the one direction that you already know by now.

            • Tim

              But what is the explanation?
              Was it always like this in America ?
              And if this is a new cultural trend in America,then when did this start?

              Have you read about similar phenomena in Europe,Australia and rest of the world?

              This sounds like a culture where women idealizes a certain type of men.
              Do these men look models and movie stars?
              Or do they have the best grades and best exams and a bright future ahead of them?

              If American women for centuries have valued the best breadwinner as their favorite partner,,maybe the pendulum now have svung to the opposite direction:
              Now they want the most sexy ones?

              Did’t men do this for a long time? Go after the most beautiful and sexullly exiting women?

            • @Iben…

              hi!

              “This sounds like a culture where women idealizes a certain type of men.
              Do these men look models and movie stars?
              Or do they have the best grades and best exams and a bright future ahead of them?”

              I will not go so far as to say they “idealize” certain types of men. It really depends on the life stage of the woman, whether it is a casual sex hookup, or whether she is looking for a LTR or to get married.

              One thing is for certain: clearly women prefer men with great bodies for sex. It is a major turn on for most here in America. That why so many of them can have sex with thugs, derelicts,…..If they are well built, then many women could care less. This is becoming MORE common. It’s “Empowering.”

              Only those few 15%-20% of men, regardless of social status or background enjoy such privilege.

            • Bay Area Guy says:

              @ Tim

              Do you have links to these studies?

            • This study says fat girls are more likely to engage in risky sexual activity (casual sex), have more partners, and more adventurous than regular weight girls.

              Effects of Overweight on Risky Sexual Behavior of Adolescent Girls (Susan Averett, Hope Corman & Nancy Reichman)
              http://www.nber.org/papers/w16172

              This study (go to page 59 – 61) says The percentage of virgins on college campuses is. Male 42% and Female 37%. (Before accounting for the fact that men largely inflate their numbers while women under-report)
              https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/221153.pdf

            • Bay Area Guy says:

              @ Tim

              Thanks for the links!

              It really does shed light on why the whole stud/slut double standard exists. It’s easy to become a slut, it’s hard to become a stud.

              If virginity rates among young men and women, and access to sex were equal among both genders, then I would agree that this double standard is unfair.

              But until then, nah.

            • @Tim….

              “There was a study which said that on college campuses 15-20% of boys are having most of the (casual) sex.”

              It’s the same outside of colleges and universities too.

            • John Anderson says:

              @ Tim

              “Yet another study says that less attractive and overweight girls have more sex partners, are more adventurous than more attractive ones.”

              I could tell you that when it comes to strippers, the less attractive ones are usually more open to going “above and beyond”. We just attributed it to them having to do more to attract customers to make up for the difference in beauty. I suspect less attractive women are more adventurous in the bedroom because they’re worried about losing their boyfriends to a more attractive woman.

              You might think that this invalidates your point except that I’ve found that women find men who have girlfriends more attractive. I’ve found this to be true. That’s why when me or the guys would go to a club with female friends they always agreed to give us a dance to “get us started”. Other women would see us dancing with them and we became more attractive.

              I know a guy who hadn’t dated in years. Then he got a date and a girlfriend. Next thing you know women are calling him even some of the women who turned him down.

            • I once read an interview with a woman who worked in a brothel. She talked about how the heavier, less attractive women had to offer more for the money in order to get clients. She mentioned that the most attractive women in the brothel refused to do anal for any price whereas the fat girls would offer to do it for free.

            • I suspect less attractive women are more adventurous in the bedroom because they’re worried about losing their boyfriends to a more attractive woman.

              At first this might appear to be grounds for sympathy for those women. But upon closer observation, you realize that less attractive overweight women have to put out early and put up with ‘kinky’ sexual demands, in order to keep the interest of men who are out of their league, to begin with….not the guys who are their equals. They don’t have to do any of that for those guys. They would happily date them in a way they want.

              It is not uncommon for average looking women to have flings and sexual relationships with men better looking than themselves and only to get burned and then start relationships with men at their level.

        • Jules

          The American Dream.
          This is what you get when a society is based on the value system expressed in The American Dream.
          I watched a little of you last election campaign and heard how your politicians bashed Europe with it welfare state and demonstrated their ignorance.

          Many things can be said about welfare states, but it does not pressure women to fight for a tiny percentage of men ,with super human qualities that guaranteed will make it and succeed in society. I am only guessing now, but this is one way to understand this.
          To see all this women as evil or selfish is closing your eyes to the larger picture.

          • @Iben…

            “Do we misunderstand each other?”

            Iben, I do not think we misunderstand one another. The point I was trying to make is just how overly selective young women are in picking men in America. I don’t know if the American Dream is the culprit or selfishness….I really do not know the answer.

            The New York Times (NYT) piece was in a college environment. So, just why these young women immediately find half the guys as unattractive I just really don’t know. It even exist at the Ivy League college and universities. My guess is it is based solely of physical/sexual attractiveness.

            You write,

            “Many things can be said about welfare states, but it does not pressure women to fight for a tiny percentage of men ,with super human qualities that guaranteed will make it and succeed in society.”

            You and I can agree! Most Americans know very little about Texas let alone Europe! Ignorance abounds in America when it comes to our knowledge and understanding of other nations and their cultures. What’s even worse is the lack of interest in even trying to learn about other societies. We would rather watch, “Housewives of Atlanta…..”

            Our country is driven by entertainment and not a longing for knowledge and understanding. I am a very curious and knowledge seeking man. I seek to understand observed conditions. Just my highly analytical background. So, when I observe women in America chasing after a select few men, I want to know and understand “Why?” You have to research and ask questions.

            “To see all this women as evil or selfish is closing your eyes to the larger picture.”

            I do not Iben. It is just know that here in America there are a lot of women who are just flatly dishonest to men. Why? I don’t know. I am seeking that answer.

          • “Many things can be said about welfare states, but it does not pressure women to fight for a tiny percentage of men ,with super human qualities that guaranteed will make it and succeed in society. ”

            Iben, are you saying that American women commodify sex?

            • I think Iben’s got a point; it’s not just the economics it’s how the economics makes us consider people. If we live in a society that makes a big deal out of being “a winner” then that affects out attitudes to sex. “Love don’t pay no bills”.

              Oh I’m sure I remember a quote by Lenin on how a man wouldn’t be able to buy a woman with expensive gifts after the revolution and that love would play the role it should, but I can’t remember it and I certainly can’t find it. It’d make me sound very learned if I could quote it – let’s just pretend I did!

              But, yes we have a utilitarian, competetive, exploitative and distrusting attitude to people economically and that gets reflected throughout society in other ways – not just in America but in Britain also. Where Thatcher can say something like (for example) “A man who, beyond the age of 26, finds himself on a bus can count himself as a failure.” how that attitude permeates, infects and toxifies society. It’s only very strong and self-aware women who wouldn’t commodify sex and men in a society where that is the prevailing message.

            • @Joseph….

              “Don’t see men as being either husband material or itch-scratchers, dispose of that dichotomy and let things be what they are; and reclaim the concept of love and romance for it’s own sake – not a goal-orientated process to fulfil a tickbox on the to do checklist (1. Shag around, 2. Get a husband).”

              I am replying to your comment to Bay Area Guy. No space up top.

              You made some great points. I am going to both agree AND disagree with you on some things. Yes, the dichotomy is terrible. Not just for women but men too. So, I am going to agree with you here. Why? What the dichotomy does is it permits women to be less picky with the “itch scratched (thugs, derelicts, playboys, jokers, losers, etc) because they are valued for sex and not relationships. Simultaneously, women become MORE picky when it comes to LTRs and marriage. In fact way too picky.

              So, it really depends on “which” men women should consider being more or less picky with. However, the real issue is that it boils down to the complexity of female sexuality. There are studies that show women are attracted to different types of men based on the phase of her cycle. One study found that during the phase when she is MOST likely to get pregnant she actually desires a physically fit, Alpha male, or a guy who is know for good sex. During other phases, Mr. Beta please.

              What I really hear you saying is women should be more picky in that they should avoid the sociopaths, degenerates, derelicts,…….They should always go for quality men. But quality base on whose definition? Male or female?

              I really think if women had zero sexual restrictions (of any kind) we would have harems. They would gravitate towards either men who were fit and known for great sex OR men with $$$$. I really think this is how it would play out.

              Already, you see it with the men whom a lot of young women have sex with….It has zippy to do with their self esteem. There are women with high self esteem, highly educated, and yet they opt for an “itch scratcher” It is their female desire to sex certain types of men. That is what they are seeking at that moment in time.

              What I am suggesting is women should be less picky about the types of men whom they see as sexually attractive. Right now, the box is quite narrow and contains a lot of bad men. But, only women can control whom they are sexually attracted too. It is really up to them to change this very very narrow view of male sexual attraction.

              Of course the feminists are going to scream that once again, patriarchy is trying to put the kibosh of female sexual freedom. And they could be right!

            • @Joseph…

              You mentioned V I Lenin. …Marx was the first to apply the Hegelian dialectic method to a materialist concept of human progress. Progress is driven by economic systems. The freer the economic system, the freer the society. Thus, you have progress.

              Marx argued (correctly I say) that the base (economic system – e.g., dog-eat-dog capitalism) determines the “super structure” in any society. By super structure he was referring to the politics, the culture, the arts, etc. Hence, our economic system is largely responsible where we are with respect to our social conditions, including sexuality.

              Hence, under a dog-eat-dog uber competitive capitalist society you will see many of the things Sarah noted. And we do!

              In America, Marx is not treated seriously as a philosopher and historical figure. In fact, I can say he was an intellectual giant. But due to ideological reasons, Marx is derided in America. He is one of the great classical economists (with Smith, Ricardo, Mill, etc.).

            • Mr Supertypo says:

              @Iben

              I can not find your comment so I write here.

              I am not quelified to say anything about American women. I am not one of them. And I have only lived in America for a year.

              But so many men here on this website tells us that a huge percentage of men in America never get a girlfriend. And I wonder why?

              What is going on if a society has 30-40% percent of men living as incels?

              I do not know if that percentage is correct,it it seems to me that many men feel rejected by absolutely all women.

              Do you know why?

              I do not know why. But it is weird….l

              I cant find your comment, Iben, so I am “forced” to reply here.

              Thats also my impression, from what I read. And to me that’s both puzzling and scary at the same time. My interpretation is men fight in the arena, and women choose the best gladiator/knight. Im sure this is incorrect but from reading only the testimony on this site and others….thats the picture I create in my mind.

              If its true, then it must be a cultural thing, maybe a bi-product of a super competitive society? but is this true for all social classes or just for the medium high echelons of the USA’ns society? Is the AM. culture hostile to women who opens up sexually (Im aware of slut shaming, but I mean beside that) similar to when men opens up emotionally? anyways if true, to me it seems women and men are even more “oppressed” now than before. But I dont live there…so I cant say, I can only listen to the explanation of (some) people who live this reality on their own skin. I need to do a research looking maybe at some DJ blog and make a comparision with my own reality….

            • Mr Supertypo

              You live in Scandinavia.
              What is your impression? Are 20-30% of all Danish men incels?
              Is this an issue at all? Or is possible that American men simply are more honest ?

              And what about Italien men?

            • @Mr Supertypo…

              It is not true for all social classes, nor races or ethnic groups.

              I think it is a white middle and upper middle class thingy. That does NOT mean it does not exist in lower classes or other racial/ethnic groups. It is just far far less prevalent.

              I am high status male of average looks and pretty damn fit for my age, 50. I am also a black man. Without a doubt I have greater opportunities for sex. Hands down.

              Black women are no where near picky as white women. Nor are Hispanic women. I guess you can say they all “slum.” But some just go over the top with it.

              I have white women attracted to me sexually (Black fantasy) and for being a high status man. Many also just like me because I am a pretty charming and laid back guy, besides being intelligent and confident. Believe it or not, I have enjoyed the least success with Black women here in America. Black women from other parts of the world like me more.

              But, I am not into having a bunch of lovers, casual sex,……I like and appreciate monogamy with lots of sex. I just like one woman who is a great human being, intelligent, passionate, good personality, and a nice ass. She need only be of average looks. That’s it! She can be a size 6 or 16. Could care less.

      • Michael says:

        No they don’t share their sexual secrets with me. But since we decided that they could have sex in our house if they wanted they don’t have to sneak around (This was common where I lived.) So I could see what went on. As i say, it was not that they didn’t have sex, but that it was a very low priority. Unlike me, they didn’t think it was the end of the world if they went for a long time without a girlfriend. Porn? They preferred World of Warcraft. They played on a team and were constantly yelling back and forth.

    • Archy
      Here how this father sees it:
      ” Sex was supposed to be fun, but it wasn’t that much fun because once you had it you had this girl hanging around and she was just a pain in the ass. “…….

      “Sex had become something that you do when you have nothing better to do.” ….”found sex to be a waste of time. “Scratching an itch”…..

      This father talks about his sons and seems to be pround of theirs inability to love,their inability to form romantic relationships, and fully supports their degrading attitudes towards women in general.

      I see it as normal that young men and women focus on studies sport and being with theirs friends instead of chasing for sex.
      But the degrading way this father talks about women may also be why his sons turn out exactly like him.
      A woman hater,that only see sex as an activity to get rid of itching,and a wast of time .
      All women know men like that. They are not good men. And they do a lot of harm.
      Who give them the right to use women bodies to get rid of their itching?

      You are a better man than this man Archy. You feel love for women and want emotional closeness to them. You are blessed.

      • @Archy,

        Sorry Archy. My comments were directed to Iben.

        My apology.

      • Michael says:

        I think I am just being honest. Look at two couples who go out together for dinner. The women will talk together and so will the men. Women and men have different interests. And to tell you the truth I have observed that men who enjoy being in social settings with a number of women do not present a sexual interest. As Plato put it early on, we desire what we don’t have. Most women are bored with sports, politics, and the way things work. They are interested in what is going on in the neighborhood.

        • @Michael…

          “Most women are bored with sports, politics, and the way things work. They are interested in what is going on in the neighborhood.”

          I think you are painting with a pretty broad brush here. I live in Maryland. I don’t see couples pairing of as you say. If they are all wives and husbands, yes. But, if it is dating arrangement, it is quite different.

          Also, I find a LOT of women interested in politics, football, baseball, the economy, and other issues.Perhaps it depends on generation. But, what I like most is a very engaging woman. I have met many of these women. I am dating a woman who is a police officer. She has a BA degree and is working on a Masters (Cyber Security). She loves ALL the things you said women are not interested.

          • Michael says:

            @ Jules
            I see. And do you find a woman police officer sexually attractive? Sounds to me like she is just one of the guys in every way? We humans have big brains and can become many things. Naturally, since my boys were both athletes some of the girls who hung around were also athletes. This was especially true for my boy who was a soccer player, because girls play soccer too. There was not much interest in sex here from either side. Until he was about eight years old they even had mixed teams. But pretty soon the boys got a lot better, and the ones who were serious about soccer didn’t want to play with the girls any more. They wanted a serious team. Sometimes girl soccer players hung out with them but they offered no sexual interest. Maybe you see it differently.From my perspective a woman who is interested in the men’s world sacrifices sexuality. No?

            • Maybe that’s true of female athletes, because the exercise produces physical changes; yes maybe they have sacrificed some sexuality, but not because they’ve chosen a masculine pursuit.

              Girls who like science or politics, which I guess you would also say was “men’s world” in your broad brush view of things, are very attractive, and having intellectual interests in common make women more attractive to me. Different tastes for different people I think you’ll find.

              And though I have no interest in Sports at all, I know many girls do take an interest in sports that aren’t less attractive as a result. Odd idea to be endorsing some sort of gender segregation. To me it’s odd, anyway.

            • @Michael…

              “men’s world”

              What’s that Michael? In my book, there really is no such thing. I am a big game hunter (love Elk hunting is what I am passionate about). She likes deer hunting with a bow. Screw the bow, I love my rifles. We are going Elk hunting in Montana this year. I have a Triumph motorcycle. She wants to buy a bike. She knows how to ride.If we are still together, I will get her one for Christmas.

              None of this bothers me one bit. She is still a kind-hearted, loving, and passionate woman.

              Yes, I do find her sexually attractive or she would not be my girlfriend. I even find her cute and sexy as hell in uniform with her Sig Sauer 40 pistol!

              Outside of work, she writes with a pink pen, has a very very soft and gentle disposition about herself, wears boy shorts (lace). The sex is awesome!

            • I too am dating a woman who’s interested in sports, politics, and philosophy (ie, “the way things work”). But I still think Michael has a valid point. She talks about these things with me because she values hearing a different/male perspective on a lot of these issues. But she generally doesn’t talk about these things in detail with her girlfriends when we’re out, and I rarely bring them up in conversation either. Even when we’re at home, I’m careful to limit how much time I spend talking about these things, since she is by all accounts more interested in other topics.

              Honestly, some of the best “relationship” advice I’ve ever gotten was to NEVER talk about serious topics in a bar or on a date. Since taking that advice, my dates have been a lot more interesting and successful, and I’m much more comfortable weaving in and out of conversations with women that leave almost all other guys in the dust. Of course, not every woman prefers traditionally “girlie” conversations, but I’d rather play to the rule than the exception.

            • Michael says:

              Sounds like she’s what you might call traditionally feminine at some times and not at others. Of course hunting has always been a female pursuit (the huntress Diana). From what you say you can see the feminine even when she is in uniform. You see through the masculine facade the way you might see through a person pretending to be something. I agree that all this sounds really good to me. I just think you really see her as underneath really feminine. But maybe I am wrong. In any case good luck. Sounds like you have a good thing going there.

            • Alyssa Royse says:

              What if we didn’t assign attributes like “strong” “brave” “tough” and the like to either gender. Or activities like hunting or cooking and whatnot to any gender. And, instead, just had a list of attributes that we know either gender is capable of. Then we could think about what qualities and activities attract us in friends and lovers alike. Then, rather than a woman being either masculine or feminine, or a guy being either masculine or feminine, we would just have people with attributes and activities. It would change nothing about our sexuality, but it might change a lot about how we think about the roles and expectations of genders. There would be a lot less fear and shame in being true to who we are if society didn’t confine us…..

            • Bay Area Guy says:

              @ Alyssa

              Well, that isn’t gonna happen, at least not in my lifetime. In the meantime, us men should work out, develop “confidence” (which, let’s face it, is female speak for “masculinity”), and learn how to be the assertive/dominant Christian Grey type figure that women lust after so much.

            • Agreed.

              I also think “it would change nothing about our sexuality” is being too complacently assumed. Our sexuality, as the moderns like to say, is socially and therefore historically constructed. Historically, these qualities have always been gendered. Our sexualities have been built on these gender differences if not polarities. So changing the assignments of gender means precisely that our sexuality will be changed.

          • Jules
            What is ” a mans world”?
            Maybe you are talking with a troll?
            How can a female police women not be attractive,or a women specialist in Marin biology, architecture,….technology,journalism,film producer ,web designer,……
            A man that only can talk about soccer must be incredibly boring company for any human being.

            • @iben…

              I think you meant for this comment to be for Michael.

              I never said these things. Nor do I believe it to be so. Michael did.

            • Jules

              I though Michaels views were so extreme that I started to suspect he was Internet Troll trying to wind you up.

              And your girlfriend sounds great. I hope it lasts . You certainly deserve it.
              Close the door to the past Jules and move forward, and try let go of the bitterness and hurt.

          • Michael says:

            “But, if it is dating arrangement, it is quite different.” Yes and in that case there could be sexual innuendo across the couples. But what I am talking about is what women are interested in when they are not interested in sex. Women are fun for sex, and that includes all the little things you can do in public including talk about things and mean other things. But what do women talk about among themselves. Sports? Politics?

      • @Iben…..

        “Who give them the right to use women bodies to get rid of their itching?”

        Women do the same Iben. In fact, I would argue they are far more guilty of such than men.

        So,
        Who give women the right to use men bodies to get rid of their itching?

        You are a woman, so ask them. I am sure they will be a lot more forthcoming to you than a man.

        Just saying.

      • FlyingKal says:

        Iben,
        This father talks about his sons and seems to be pround of theirs inability to love,their inability to form romantic relationships, and fully supports their degrading attitudes towards women in general.

        I see it as normal that young men and women focus on studies sport and being with theirs friends instead of chasing for sex.
        But the degrading way this father talks about women may also be why his sons turn out exactly like him.
        A woman hater,that only see sex as an activity to get rid of itching,and a wast of time .
        All women know men like that. They are not good men. And they do a lot of harm.
        Who give them the right to use women bodies to get rid of their itching?

        Michael is not talking about women and committed relationships. He is talking about sex as a pastime, and possibly as entertainment. How you can twist his intentions like this is beyond my understanding.

        • FlyingKal says:

          Sorry, I butchered the quote in the last post. I’m trying again:

          Iben,
          This father talks about his sons and seems to be pround of theirs inability to love,their inability to form romantic relationships, and fully supports their degrading attitudes towards women in general.

          I see it as normal that young men and women focus on studies sport and being with theirs friends instead of chasing for sex.
          But the degrading way this father talks about women may also be why his sons turn out exactly like him.
          A woman hater,that only see sex as an activity to get rid of itching,and a wast of time .
          All women know men like that. They are not good men. And they do a lot of harm.
          Who give them the right to use women bodies to get rid of their itching?

          Michael is not talking about women and committed relationships. He is talking about sex as a pastime, and possibly as entertainment. How you can twist his intentions like this is beyond my understanding.

        • FlyingKal says:

          I guess it wasn’t me the…
          The quote from Iben’s post end with the sentence “Who give them the right to use women bodies to get rid of their itching?”

        • Hi Flyingkal

          He describes his young sons, maybe 16-18 years old young men.
          Try to imagine that you are a young girl .
          Or even better try to see yourself as a father of young girls 16-18 years old.

          Then as a father of young girls,go back and read this post we discuss one more time. Does it make you comfortable?

          Do you want your young daughters sexuality to be seems as ” fun” or ” pastime” or do you want it to be seen as something valuable,something to be treated with respect?

          Do you want young boys to bring her to bed,and the day after see her as a something that “want to hang around your neck?”

          If you do FlyingKal,then we have different values. I would bring up my sons and daughters to have values that says they can have sex in a relationship but not use others for one night just for fun or entertainment.

          And yes,I think young women also need to respect young men’s feelings and not play around with them,or exploit them.

          I agree that my comment was hash.impolite and cruel. I need to learn to be more diplomatic but attitudes like that needs to meet opposition. And this time it was me.

          • FlyingKal says:

            Iben,
            Do you want your young daughters sexuality to be seems as ” fun” or ” pastime” or do you want it to be seen as something valuable,something to be treated with respect?

            I don’t have any kids, nor will I ever have any, but that’s beside the point.
            What I want to see is that whenever sex occurs, both (or everybody…) involved mutually agree about it and derive as much pleasure and fun out of it as possible!
            And whether it’s happening within a mutually agreed longterm committed monogamy, or it is just on a short-term basis, a one-night stand or a “pastime”, is thereby totally beside the point!

            You see, I happen to believe that also women can have an active lust for sex. And if they can derive pleasure from it on their own terms, they should be free to do so without being confined to a committed relationship. Any objections to that?

            And no, I don’t think you need to be more diplomatic. I just think you are letting prejudice colour your interpretations of what other people are writing here, in a somewhat too large degree.

            • Flyingkal
              You are right we do not have the same values.
              I guess you are for prostitution and I am not.

              But you see if a girl want to ” hang around a boys neck ” the day after then she does not want a one- night stand.

              And why are you so angry?
              Why do you respond to my comments when you dislike me so much.
              From now on let’s both of us simply ignore the other.

            • FlyngKal says:

              Iben,
              Your flexibility about jumping to conclusions from my posts is really beyond my wildest imagination.
              I won’t even try to comprehend how what I wrote about how everybody involved in sex should “mutually agree about it and derive as much pleasure and fun out of it as possible!”, and the only conclusion you could draw from that was that I am for prostitution…!

              You have no clue what I’m talking about.
              And if I really was angry, that might partially be a reason to it. But as of now, I don’t see why it should bother me at all.
              So yes, ignoring each other sounds fine to me.
              (I wasn’t even gonna write this, as I was gonna take your word for it. But then I saw you had written a new response yourself, an hour later.)

              Looking forward to a great summer. Going to Norway, hiking and kayaking in Sognefjord and the Aurland area. So I’m gonna be just fine.

            • Flyingkal

              Here below you write as if 20 sex partners is a lot.
              But later you jump at me because I see one- night stands as unwise for young girls.
              Do you know how many days it is in a year ?
              Most young girls would reach the number 20 in a three weeks they lived out their sexuality.
              And you would say to your 16 year old daughter :” go ahead”.
              I question your intelligence when you advice your daughters to do that in today’s society.

              And you think 20 is many? ** smile **

              Here is your own words.:
              FlyingKal says:
              June 10, 2013 at 11:11 am
              I’d say that having been to bed with 20 different women says way more of a man’s capacity as a “charmer” than as a lover. Maybe he was dumped by all 20 after (or halfway through…?) the first session?
              So he real question here still remains unasked: Was he, in fact, even half as good as a lover as he pretended to be?
              (And where did he focus his attention in all this?)

              Reply

            • You are kind of assuming that each individual only has one type of sexual behaviour, so someone who solely had one night stands would clock up an enormous amount of partners if they had a new one each week say, but whilst one night stands are common, I don’t think there’s that many people that habitually choose to have one-night stands. What actually happens is one night stands for most people (who aren’t deliberately trying to clock up partners and aren’t deliberately using and discarding) happen whilst looking for a relationship, and one or both of them decide they don’t want to pursue a relationship. Now I suppose if you were being prudish about it you would say well if they had waited they might have found out before they reached that stage that they didn’t want a relationship; but when you’ve been stuck in a few will they won’t they friendships in a stalemate because there’s suddenly too much to lose you realise that a little less caution earlier on could have saved you a load of trouble!

            • Bit missing from one of those sentences! It was meant to read…

              “What actually happens is one night stands for most people (who aren’t deliberately trying to clock up partners and aren’t deliberately using and discarding) happen whilst looking for a relationship, and, after the event, one or both of them decide they don’t want to pursue a relationship.”

            • Joseph

              “You are kind of assuming that each individual only has one type of sexual behavior”

              No Joseph I do not think most of us want one- night stands.
              What I try to say is that you are very young when you are 16-20 years old.

              When we are adults at 30+ we can see around corners and understand the emotional hurt sex without love and outside of relationships can give. As adults we know more what this is all about emotionally.

              I do NOT think young girls dream of one- night stands at that age. At least I did not. But I had one steady boyfriend through all those years.

              For adults I do not think sexual happenings is harmful at all and I had my fair share and only happy good memories.
              But I would never ever raise my kids to go out in society in 2013 and live like this was a healthy place sexually for boys and girls . Because it is not.

              In the future we can hope for a society that is heathy sexually and not totally messed up like today. But we have a long way to go.

              Until then we have to cope as best we can, and inform the young about the reality we live in right now.
              And it is still a fact that many,maybe most men will not marry a girl that has made love to a lot of men. This feeling or attitude is so strong in men,that I wonder if it is genetic.

              And please read Sarah’s last post or comments about sexuality in our society today . Then maybe you understand what I mean. Sarah says it all so well,and that is what we send our young boys and girls into.

            • @Iben….

              “I do NOT think young girls dream of one- night stands at that age. At least I did not. But I had one steady boyfriend through all those years.”

              Here is America today, not only are many dreaming it but they are actually engaging in it. The precise percentage I have no idea. I know it is more common for college aged women. But, even many high school girls do it too.

              I can only speak about America. But, it just seems as if the sex thingy has been stood on its head. It yields crazy choices and equally crazy outcomes.

            • I think it might just be that men don’t like to be with a woman that’s had more partners than they have.

              But by the age of thirty I was resigned to it. 😀

              Statistically the median number of partners for women is higher, so unless you are one of the fast-talking sociopaths, chances are your girlfriend has had more partners than you have, and she doesn’t think it’s important, because she has never had friends who try to use the number of partners they’ve had in oneupmanship. She’s never had her inability to “pull” make her the butt of jokes; she doesn’t know what it is to have lack of sex to source a feeling of inadequacy. But she understands that for a man it’s important so most girls try to give the impression that she’s had less experience than he has, because to have more than him enhances the feeling of inadequacy for him.

              But as I say I’m resigned to it now. I’m beyond the age of trying to compete with women on numbers of sexual partners. Even though one is effectively losing a game against an opponent who’s not even trying! lol It’s absurd when you think about it.

              That’s the worst thing, when you have a break up and within a week she’s got a new man, and you say “but we’ve only been split up a week! I wasn’t even sure we wouldn’t get back together.”, and then (I’m chuckling because this is such a George Castanza type of logic, but we all have an inner George) you think “well, it’s not fair! Because you can do that to get me out of your system, but I can’t do that to get you out of my system.”

              When I was in that situation, she never understood why “I couldn’t do that”. Women do think it is as easy for us as it is for them. Or that it’s just me. They think “I’ve slept with three guys this month, and they had no problem getting me to sleep with them, therefore it must be easy for guys too right? Surely it should be easy for you too. Stop complaining”.

              And then the other thing a woman can say “it just happened”. Really? It just happened? No warning that it was going to happen? Just like that! One minute no sex, and then suddenly sex? I don’t know what happened, it just happened!

              But now I am just being whingy.

              Nothing is going to change this. Both genders do need to have more respect for each other and themselves. And perhaps alter the way we judge each other.

            • Hi Joseph
              You are an interesting man! I am surprised you have any problems at all with women. I think you “can talk women into bed” with you ability to analyze. My compliments.

              You also write
              ✺ “Nothing is going to change this. Both genders do need to have more respect for each other and themselves. And perhaps alter the way we judge each other.”✺
              And I agree.

              It so great fun to read what you write ,all your comments are interesting.. Mayne you are as good in conversations as well.

              Are you aware how many women think like this about men:” this one will be interesting to have breakfast with,year after year…” Great conversations are loved by many women Joseph.

            • @Joseph

              “…..and she doesn’t think it’s important, because she has never had friends who try to use the number of partners they’ve had in oneupmanship.”

              I think it is because women just do not see this as an issue. Frankly, many of them view it as a huge plus. He is experienced. He must know how to give good sex…..

              I was talking to a Jewish friend of mine. He said one of the reasons their culture is matrilineal was because often men did not know if they were the fathers of the child. (Btw, an estimated 15% of all kids born into a marriage in America has a father OTHER than the husband). But, being a Jew was what was MOST important. Hence, only the mother need be Jewish to be considered a Jew. The father could be the leader of Hamas. But, if the mother is Jewish, it’s a done deal.

              It like why do women still want to fuck Jesse James, Tiger Woods, etc? Why don’t women consider these men man whores? In my opinion it simply does not matter from a female sexuality perspective.

            • FlyngKal says:

              And you think 20 is many? ** smile **

              If the median value for the entire population is 5 or 7, obviously 20 is quite a lot…

      • “This father talks about his sons and seems to be pround of theirs inability to love,their inability to form romantic relationships, and fully supports their degrading attitudes towards women in general.”

        Iben, deciding not to run around drooling after girls =/= inability to love, =/= degrading attitudes towards woemn, etc.

  63. Steve Steveson says:

    You talk about not deamonizing men as predators yet use the phrase “rape culture” again and again with its connotations that rape is something ingrained in to all men by society rather than something that is a violent and criminal act by both men and women. Then saying men can help fix this by helping stop violence against women as if all men are at fault for the actions of a small minority.

    No, what needs to be done is to change society as a whole from Sex=Bad to Sex=Good and give everyone the tools to say what they want and to say Yes and No.

    • @Steve,

      I agree with you.

      Your suggestions are quite reasonable and common sense. We seem to have gotten away from common sense, simplicity, and honest dialogue.

      I really detest this “rape culture” thingy. Yes, there is rape in America. However, there is no culture of rape.

    • Rape culture exists whether you want to admit it or not. News reporters were discussing how tragic the situation was for the rapists in the Steubenville case for crying out loud; I don’t know how rape culture could possibly be more evident than when we mourn the goddamn rapists and not the victim.

  64. I’ve kind of been waiting around for this article. Every time I see or hear the statement that “men and boys need to be taught not to rape/rape is bad” it insults and infuriates me and I just have to disengage from the conversation before I stick my foot in it and end up blindly labelled as yet another predator with anger issues. Not saying it’s perfect but reading this article was like seeing a little bit of light at the end of the tunnel. Evolution moves slowly but this gave me a bit more hope that it’s going in the right direction, for all of us. So yeah, thanks Alyssa.

  65. Anthony says:

    I don’t think I had much guidance when I was young (I’m now 60+) but always had a vaguely guilty feeling that I was in some way an oppressor of women, and because of that tried to be as nice as possible, which does not work., one reason being that it is not really authentic. Somehow I got the idea in my head from an early age that women did not like sex (from my Mother) and that sex is wrong or embarrassing (from my Father). In life I found that neither of these things were true but it was very hard to get that first idea out of my head. It is still there to a lessor degree. Very nice to hear a woman’s perspective on the subject and one that validates men instead of attacking them.

  66. Thank you, thank you for this article. Truly.

    That said, I would have loved to see more balanced recommendations for action – that is, you state a few times that we can work together to move forward, but give recommendations solely geared towards men. The reason this article was so powerful for me was recognizing the effect this has had in my own defaults and behaviors – but I was disappointed to then feel powerless, as a straight woman, based on the recommendations you explored.

    I’d love to see someone take a shot at diving into how we can truly work together to move from here.

    • Alyssa Royse says:

      Thanks Anna. This article was written for men, so I didn’t think to include tips for women. CLEARLY, given the response, an oversight on my part. Despite the name of the site, The Good Men Project, I will remember, going forward, that a lot of women read this site. And there were many men who were also angry that I didn’t include tips for women. It was my oversight, I wasn’t speaking to women. Though I am hugely gratified that so many women have responded, and from here on out, I’m writing for both, even if there is a slight emphasis on a male audience.

      I will probably write a continuation of this article on NotSoSecret.com, which is a site aimed at women’s sexuality.

      • Bay Area Guy says:

        @ Alyssa

        I don’t think male commenters on this site mind the omission of women in these articles per se. What they don’t like is what they perceive to be women constantly getting a free pass.

        It’s why they always react with such hostility towards NL’s articles.

  67. Hi Jules
    This is a comment to your writing:

    “Who give them the right to use women bodies to get rid of their itching?”
    Women do the same Iben. In fact, I would argue they are far more guilty of such than men.”

    I think is wrong to exploit another’s person sexually,economically,emotionally or otherwise. It does not matter if it is a man or a woman.
    But I did not know that so many men suffer under sexual exploitation from women.
    Please point me to articles on GMP that writes about this problem. I remember the story of Bobby Brown.

    If only 15-20% of American men get sex, then it must be these men that get exploited sexually by lots and lots of women? Or is it 15-20% that get causal sex and get exploited? I am confused now.

    They must be very busy,and somebody must help them.

    In my social circles women do not exploit men Jules. I don’t respect persons like that and do not spend time with them. I like and love persons with integrity. I stay away from those who exploit others.(Just like I stay away from persons that are cruel to animals. )

    • @Iben…

      Neither the man nor the woman view this as exploitation. I do. That is why I indicated in an earlier post that if I feel a white woman wants me just to “try out”, then I am turned off regardless.

      You know sexuality is all screwed up here in America. You have both men and women who feel it is perfectly acceptable to get their itch scratched. You have the booty calls, hook ups, …..But neither side see this as exploitation.

      Women view this new sexuality as “Empowering.” While men think it is just fantastic.

      I am a social conservative and never believed in “casual” sex. I have to know and respect the woman before I have sex with her. If I do not respect her then why on earth would I want to have sex with her? To me that is just crazy.

      Yet, some women have these thug guys who know how to give them great sex but they (the women) think very little of them as human beings. They are just sex machines. I am sure there are men who do the same. It is just twisted in my mind.

      • Nothing you wrote about implies sexuality being screwed up. You just wrote about how your own personal preferences should be those of other people – which is just twisted in my mind.

        • @Asura….

          I did say MY mind. Not once did I say or suggest that other people adopt MY view of the issue.

          I am merely challenging the humanity of the practice. I is akin to the slave master who would rape or through consent (she thought she would become a free person) have sex with the African slave woman, but see her as less than himself. Just where is the dignity in that?

          To ME, it is the same thing as saying a person is good enough for sex, but not good enough as a human being to date.

  68. Here’s another thought that occured to me:

    I’m not sure what is meant by “let us in don’t lure us in”, and perhaps that could be explained in a more explicit less soundbitey way. But I suspect it’s about being open about our emotions. The fact is whilst I can admit to being “sensitive” in the way that I can admit I cried at Wreck-It-Ralph say :-) (which honestly I did! I have kids that I take out every other weekend so I see all the kids films, and it’s often where I get a lot of my emotional release) but if one’s emotions include feeling ugly or undesirable, feeling a sense of failure, having doubts – I’m aware that these are qualities that women will always find unattractive. Men never find vulnerability or self-doubt unattractive in a woman, we always feel protective towards a woman who is feeling vulnerable; we are happy to elevate the self-esteem of a woman who is feeling bad about herself – there is not a contradiction between sympathy and sexual attraction for us. But for women, there can be men you feel sympathy for, and men you find attractive, but they’re almost never the same man – so we do have to keep those negative emotions underwraps until we’re utterly sure a friendship is never going to evolve into anything more – and that is why we have to keep emotionally closed and not be totally honest about ourselves.

    Do other men here feel this double-bind, and do the women here recognise it as truthful? And since a man’s low-self esteem can come from long-term unintentional celibacy, and since it is a viscious circle, is this really something we men have to do something about, or is it somewhere where perhaps women’s perceptions of the reality of what it is to be a man need to change?

    • Hi Joseph
      Good question you ask here.

    • Alyssa Royse says:

      I can only speak for me, not “all women.” We are far from a monolithic bunch. I do find it attractive when men are able to articulate their fears and insecurities. I find it wildly attractive, actually. That is one of the things that I always looked for in a partner. However, it’s not just acknowledging them, but being able to go on with life and have a good attitude despite them. When I meet a man – or woman – who is able to admit that they fear failure or injury or loss, and is still able to go forward in pursuing their goals, without holding anyone else responsible, I tend to go all in. I would describe my husband that way. All of my friends. I am trying to foster that in my daughters.

      There is nothing weak in that, in fact, I find it a hallmark of strength and stability.

      Further, if I’m going to have a serious relationship with someone, I NEED to know that they can do that, because we will go through a lot in life, and I need to know they can talk to me honestly about what they’re thinking and feeling so that I don’t get surprised later about some simmering resentment….

      It’s hard. Especially with the myths of masculinity that we’ve been fed – all this White Knight Prince Charming Superhero nonsense about men always being strong and fixing everything. Men are human. A man in touch with his own humanity has always had a better chance of touching my heart, and my girlie bits. 😉

      And no, it’s not easy. We have to undo a lot of cultural programming in both men and women.

      • “I tend to go all in.”

        All In: The Education of General David Petraeus

        Funny how Paula Broadwell came up with this title for her book.

    • FlyingKal says:

      Joseph,
      Thanks for asking the question.
      I think that people in general are better at rationalizing their choices to themselves, than they are at living up to their own standards. :-)
      I.e. we keep telling ourselves that we are attracted to people with positive attributes, when in reality we interpret or ascribe positive attributes to the people we are attracted to…

  69. Amen and thank you/
    As a man and a person/
    Please comunicate

  70. Who are you kidding? We live in a patriarchal misogynistic society where everything is sexualized and marginalized. Men became urban legend and males cannot stop complaining how they are not unequal enough. Relationships became an unwinnable game, like chasing a carrot on a stick.. Males want everything on their terms without reciprocation or any responsibility, unless you find a way to manipulate them into appreciating what you do for them. Sex is a great cardio-vascular, but not worth the candles with exposure to all the risks involved. If you want someone who loves you for who you are regardless of what you are wearing, your “sexual worth,” or your status, get a dog! Male is the last thing that woman needs.

  71. The best way to fix this IMO is for society to allow women to be the aggressors. Once women are allowed/encouraged to take the same risks as men, then men won’t feel the pressure. This would IMO result in both a reduction is sexual assault/rape culture AND women not seeing men as predators.

  72. Ginkgo
    I can not find your comment so I write here.
    I am not quelified to say anything about American women. I am not one of them. And I have only lived in America for a year.

    But so many men here on this website tells us that a huge percentage of men in America never get a girlfriend. And I wonder why?
    What is going on if a society has 30-40% percent of men living as incels?
    I do not know if that percentage is correct,it it seems to me that many men feel rejected by absolutely all women.
    Do you know why?

    I do not know why. But it is weird….l

    • @Iben…

      I think the percentage of men living as incels is anywhere between 20%-30%.

      Why? I really think it is due to the fact that American women find so few men attractive.

      Why is this the case? I have no idea. Even surveys from major online dating sites confirm what I am saying. The surveys show women find about 70%-80% of men as unattractive.

      Just to offer a contrast. I know and am around many Hispanic Americans. The women no where nearly as picky and…..about men.

      Women on GMP often ask why are there not male prostitutes for women. Well, it is due to the fact that women can access sex much much easier than men. This is what drives this mentality of many women in their ability to have sex with a man but would NEVER date him or even be seen in public with him in some cases. So, there is always the man whore many women can turn. Why would they need a male prostitute? Clearly they do not.

  73. Ginkgo

    Author: Ginkgo
    Comment:
    ✺”This father talks about his sons and seems to be pround of theirs inability to love,their inability to form romantic relationships, and fully supports their degrading attitudes towards women in general.”

    Iben, deciding not to run around drooling after girls =/= inability to love, =/= degrading attitudes towards woemn, etc.✺

    Ginkgo please read all the posting I was commenting on. And let me assure you that I do not think it is degrading to women that men do not run around drooling….

    But if you read all the posting of this father as a whole you see a man that is not happy with women’s company,he is not happy in bed with women sexually ,and he is glad his young sons see girls as “something that want to hang around their neck.” Nor does he have any interesting conversations with women.

    I think it is great that boys stay away from girls when that is how they see them.

  74. Bay Area guy
    You write:

    “✺The reason why slut shaming exists, and why studs are respected while sluts ridiculed is because men actually have to put in work to become studs. They have to develop confidence, dress better, deal with rejection after rejection, and overall cultivate better qualities. For women to be sluts, they simply have to be there (as Jim Jefferies once put it) and have a pulse. ” ✺

    You hypotheses is vulgar and simplistic. And lacking in knowledge about the phenomena.

    Please read Julia Stonehouse here on GMP
    http://goodmenproject.com/families/is-this-the-end-of-the-patriarchy/
    She has a good theory and she well qualified to explain about this.
    She will not agree with your hypotheses !
    Read her and especially her brilliant comments in the debate !
    Recommended

    • @Iben…

      Thanks for the piece by Julia Stonehouse. Interesting to say the least. But, I think she glossed over too much. I certainly do not agree with most of what she states.

      I really do not believe patriarchy is the root of the problem. Nor is Christianity. What I found most lacking is her failure to even mention Judaism. After all, Christianity is deeply rooted in Judaism. Why you might ask is Judaism relevant?

      Do you know a woman had the right to a divorce under Judaism thousands of years ago? Do you know that under Judaism, women were treated a near legal equals to men? It was Judaism that abolished the practice of it Kings (Solomon, David) having hundreds of wives AND concubines. Monogamy has it roots in Judaism, not Christianity.

      While I am a Protestant, I really think more Christians need to study Judaism. Even when the number of wives was reduced to 17, they had to be all treated equally and with respect.

  75. Jules

    Here is Cameron’s article about commercial
    Sexual exploitation of boy.
    There are more boys selling sex than girls.
    As far as know the same is in Sweden,and not all costumers are men.

    http://goodmenproject.com/good-feed-blog/social-justice-and-boys-too-the-commercial-sexual-exploitation-of-boys-in-the-us/

    • @Iben..

      Hello!

      Yes, I did read the piece you referenced. But, the overwhelming proportion of boys is to serve the needs of gay men and pedophiles.

  76. Hi Jules

    The number of wife’s reduced to 17?
    You made me laugh.
    But you are right. We should know more than our Bible. The old and the New Testament.

    I have persons of the Jewish faith in my family and still I know nothing. Just like I know little about Islam even though my city has large groups of Muslims.

    I wonder if men’s preference for chaste women is genetic. And as you often comment many women don’t mind at all if some men have far to many sex partners and live like male whores.

    It is strange. Is it a cultural thing? Is is chasing men as status symbols?

    Or have we as a society lost values about the purity and beauty of love and sexuality?
    The mystic is gone,romance is on its way out, the mind blowing love experience where you feel one with God is replaced with demands for anal.

    And old vanilla girl is pessimistic about the future.

    • @Iben…

      “You made me laugh.”

      Great! It is always healthy to laugh.

      “I wonder if men’s preference for chaste women is genetic. And as you often comment many women don’t mind at all if some men have far to many sex partners and live like male whores.”

      Iben, Tim has some great comments on this above. He was very open and honest. What he wrote also contains much truth.

      But here is a question that continues to dog me: Why has the history of man been one of suppressing female sexuality? Is it because men throughout history have seen unbridled female sexuality and found it terrifying!? Just what is the motive for this? Maybe you have the answer(s)?

      As I study history and in particular Judaism and Christian histories, I often ask myself: just why on earth would a woman want to be a concubine. Why would a woman want to be a one of King Solomon’s hundreds of wives? Or his hundreds of concubines? Or part of a harem? Is this why men has sought to bottle up female sexuality? I really don’t know the answers Iben.

      “And old vanilla girl is pessimistic about the future.” Funny. Now I laugh about being you being vanilla.I am vanilla too Iben. I love and appreciate the simplicity and beauty that life offers. Here in America, everything is rush rush rush. Few take the time to enjoy life. I grew up in Georgia, a Deep South state. Life was rural and simple. Yet, it had this beautiful essence. Waking up to the sweet smell of honeysuckle. Going home to visit and taking my wife for a walk in the woods with pine trees, seeing rabbits and others animals. Enjoying a kiss in the woods….It seems all lost today in America.

      Things have a tendency of swinging back and forth in life. While I like vanilla, I can also go for vanilla, I am willing to try French Vanilla:)-

      Maybe people will wake up in America and see that this is really not the way to live. I hope so.

      Cheers!

  77. Hi Tim and Sarah
    I hope you gets some comments on Tim’s hypotheses here

    ✺Tim says:
    June 14, 2013 at 2:53 am
    Sarah

    Have you noticed that men who have slept with, say, 50 women are much less bothered about a woman’s sexual past, when settling down?

    It is the chicken and egg parable.

    You say women find fewer men sexually attractive because they get slut-shamed and have to be picky. I say women get slut-shamed because slut-shaming developed in response to an inherent difference in sexuality b/w men and women. It developed in order to ensure a monogamous society which would allow every man to have a woman.

    There is no basis of slut-shaming other than male sexual jealousy and insecurity. Its not because men think a woman with 50 partners has lost her value, is damaged goods, is worth less as a human being, has become ‘morally corrupted’ etc. Ofcourse religions and social values have simply given a cover to male insecurities so we can all pretend its an issue of morality. Religions were made by men to protect male interests.

    I have absolutely no disrespect for a woman who has slept with 100 men. But I would never want to get serious with one because (1) I’ve only had 2 partners in life and would like someone with a similar history and (2) I cannot measure up to her past. I am truthful enough to acknowledge that its just about me…not her. Do you think this is still slut-shaming?

    Other men are not so truthful and instead of acknowledging their own insecurity would rather scorn promiscuous women.
    .
    Slut-shaming is a direct result of male sexual jealousy. But why are men more sexually jealous than women? Consider this: People are more jealous and protective about something when its rare and difficult to obtain; when its wanted by many but can’t be had easily.
    Can we say this holds true for female sexuality? If female sexuality was in abundance and available to men in a relatively egalitarian way, why would men be jealous? Why would there be a rationale for jealousy? Why would our early male ancestors stifle a sexual utopia that they were perhaps enjoying by restricting female sexuality? Men love sex don’t they? Perhaps because there was no sexual utopia for men. Perhaps because unrestricted female sexuality had a tendency to exclude most men.

    My belief is that what we observe in the sexual realm of life, won’t be blamed on the double standard for long. They will have to come up with other explanations soon.✺

    And Tim,may I ask how you know how man with lots of sex partners have no problems settling down with women that also had many?

    One of my friends was one of these men. He married a international sex symbol.
    When the marriage broke down I asked him:” did she kick you out of the bed.?”
    And he answered :” no. I kicked her out. I was too jealous of her past”.

    • Iben..

      Hi!

      “And Tim,may I ask how you know how man with lots of sex partners have no problems settling down with women that also had many?”

      Maybe he did not know? Perhaps he too has had many and does not care?

    • Iben,
      Whether Tim can back it up or not, I think it’s likely to be true. If there’s not a study on it there should be. You know how girls get told by their mothers that boys won’t like them if they’re smart – and it’s wrong of course; Dumb boys won’t like you if you’re smart – that’d be the truth! People tend to prefer people of similar intellect, but if one has to be smarter than the other, generally the trend is the man would prefer it to be himself – unless he’s very secure (so I’m exempting myself here. I lived for ten years with a woman who was smarter than me, marginally, but it only started to make me feel inadequate in the last year of our relationship when I’d been told at work that I’d never be management material – which means no pay rise ever effectively; it was only when I was feeling like a failure in a broader context that I failed to spar with her when she made a joke at my expense, in that playful way couples do, but started to accept it like a beaten dog. It was only when I was in depression for other reasons that it started to hurt – and I’m not dumb at all; I’m in the upper quartile; but when you feel like a failure every insult, however far from the truth, still catches you and fills you with doubts). So I’m thinking to a certain extent, certainly if the man is young and he thinks he’s comparing like with like (which he isn’t of course for reasons we’ve already stated) being with a girl who’s had significantly more partners than him will make him feel inadequate. But, as with intellect, I don’t think anyone wants to a massive disparity in any direction – The sociopathic narcisstic “friend” with 150 ex partners I talked about; his girlfriend was appalled by his white lie of “50”; fifty seems like a lot to her when she most likely hadn’t broken double figures. And in his case she’s quite right to be appalled by it – it accurately (well not accurately! Because it’s only a third of the actual figure!) represents that he is a shallow human being, and anyone with a small number of mostly romantic sexual encounters in their history faced with a partner who has numerous purely recreational sexual encounters is naturally going to ask “okay, if all those others meant nothing to you; how do I know I mean something to you?”

      So actually; how should we feel about “slut-shaming”? Dolphins do it. They’re a polyamorous bunch dolphins – not monogamous at all; they do forge long term partnerships and attachments mind; however if an individual dolphin is moving through sex partners too fast for comfort the school will ostracise him or her; just socially exclude them. I’m not saying dolphins do it, it must be fine; they’re not the perfect little angels we’re led to believe – they have their vices as well as their virtues – they’re almost as ethically complex as we are. But maybe if slut-shaming was extended to the males as well – maybe if it became accepted to turn around to guys who boast a high number of woman; “okay name them and say what made each one special to you”; or even “so why can’t you keep hold of your girlfriends?” In fact the more putdowns we can work out for men who have large numbers of sexual partners the more we can change the social attitude that they are winners worthy of respect.

      • @joseph…

        Great post!

      • Hi Joseph

        ✺You write:” But maybe if slut-shaming was extended to the males as well – maybe if it became accepted to turn around to guys who boast a high number of woman; “okay name them and say what made each one special to you”; or even “so why can’t you keep hold of your girlfriends?” In fact the more putdowns we can work out for men who have large numbers of sexual partners the more we can change the social attitude that they are winners worthy of respect.”✺

        My answer is yes and no,yes and no.

        I agree with you that we all should speak up when somebody BRAG about their sexual conquest and “their number”.

        But I do not agree that we should slut sham men or women for their ” number”. Nor for their sexuality.

        Their sexual values,attitudes and behavior towards others however should always be challenged. Some exploit others,and damage them for life with their sexuality.

        The reasons why some have no sex partner in a lifetime,some have 4-7( a median ?) and some have a lots of are many and varied.

        Any individual have his or her unique story. Who are we to judge?

        For some promiscuity is symptoms of deeper long lasting emotional distress,like when you suffer from certain personalty disorder,for example borderline,or sex addiction( if that is a diagnoses). A symptom of an inability to take care of them selves….and more. Many are survivers of childhood sexual abuse.

        The dolphins may spot unhealthy sexual behavior,as a symptom of individuals ” messed up” just like we do. Or maybe even sosiopatic / antisocial dolphins? Who knows.

        • Iben….

          “Any individual have his or her unique story..”

          Yes, but maybe the problem is not a lot of men have a story, at all. That is what the high incel statistic is telling us.

          I will always believe a person has a right to ask about “the number.” The other always has the right to say “No…”, “Go jump off a bridge.”…just refuse. Then we will know the truth of the matter.

          • Jules

            Yes,if you want to start a relationship you have the right to ask about anything.
            But where I live,we don’t. At least I have never asked any,and nobody has asked me .

            Our future Qeen probably has a higher number than her husband the crown price . Sex,drugs and rock &roll…..

      • Joseph

        Did you see the movie;” Sex,lies and videotape”?

      • Joseph
        This thread is closing up now.
        But read this article about research on porn in today’s The Guardian.

        Maybe everybody that uses porn is “sluts” male or female?

        Good summer.
        http://www.guardian.co.uk/culture/2013/jun/16/internet-violent-porn-crime-studies

  78. Hi Jules
    I can not find you.

    You asked my opinion about this.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/emma-johnson/ingle-moms-and-other-stro_b_3117711.html

    It has 100% on Reddit. What does that mean?

    What is an alpha male?
    Here is one definition:

    “in social animals, the alpha is the individual in the community with the highest rank”.

    I have never met a real alpha male. Online I see many men call themselves alpha male.

    This article only made me smile,I like Italians.
    But I can not see how Lou is alpha male,and dominating? How is he dominating? And how is alpha?

    When a woman says she like aggression in bed it is probably something different than you think.

    What is your question Jules?
    I do not see Lou as a thug,a bastard or a sociopath.

    • @Iben…

      hello!

      I am here. An Alpha male is a sexually dominate man. As opposed to a beta male. Also, he can be high status and domineering…..

      In the HP piece Lou is, per the author, an Alpha male. He is dominating her sexually in bed.

      The point is just how few requirements she placed on Lou for sex. She met the guy online and then……

      Yet, this is in clear contradiction to what the author of this (GMP) article would have men believe.

    • @Iben……

      My question was just how do you balance this behavior with what Alyssa says women are looking for?

      Here is an except from the article,

      “I was referencing my weekend date — a guy I met on OKCupid named Lou who I have pretty much nothing in common with but proved to be the perfect Saturday night activity. For the past few months I’ve been in a dateless funk, fueled by disappointment that a love interest didn’t pan out and a long, gray, life-filled winter. Despite being anything but what I am looking for in the long-term, this Sicilian-born, Harley-riding electrical engineer from Queens charmed me with a witty profile, flirty and articulate messages and pics that suggested — quite accurately, I found — a darling smile and a 6’3″ body built like a brick shit house.”

      See, she only wanted Lou for sex. He was among that 15%-20% of men want STRICTLY for sex. She even stated she had nothing in common with him.

      Personally, I cannot mentally understand how she could do it. But, clearly this is contrary to what Alyssa is telling men to do. And it simply proves my point: watch what women do not what they say. Not all women of course, but too many.

  79. I think this topic is so, so important, and I am sure this article was written with the best of intentions, but I must say I find a certain irony in the fact that, while the author praises Sabrina Morgan for noticing that “cis” men feel that nobody wants to hear what they have to say about sex, she herself has written an article about male sexuality which is completely devoid of men having anything to say about sex, and which, having omitted this aspect, concludes with a list of instructions for men.

    There is no doubt that it is difficult to be a conscious, sensitive woman in our culture. It is also difficult to be a conscious sensitive man in our culture. American men are expected to be strong, sensitive, smart, supportive, driven, available, active, attentive, assertive, receptive. And, like women, I think they are told how to be more than they are asked how they are.

    It is really important that men understand how it is for women, and in particular, how women experience them. I think it is equally important for women to understand how it is for men — and how men experience them.

    I suppose it could be argued that women’s interest in what men have to say goes without saying. However, I’m not sure that it does go without saying, and I certainly think it’s unfortunate if it not only goes without saying, but it goes without doing.

    • Matt
      Can you write more?

      • Hi, Iben,

        Yes. About what, specifically?

        • Matt
          Anything about this issue that you feel is important. Like for example when you say:
          ✺” I think it is equally important for women to understand how it is for men — and how men experience them.”✺

          But also other thoughts and feeling this article trigger in you is of interest for many of us.

          • Thanks for asking. Clearly I’m dropping into a larger much larger discussion, and the topic is very, very complicated. Also, I’m realizing that I’m not sure I posted my comment in the right place. I meant it to be a response to the article itself, but it may have posted as a reply to someone else’s comment. I find the tree structure a little hard to navigate.

            But anyway, here goes. For my $.02, here are some reflections which I haven’t yet tied together into a thesis:


            1) I think men should give themselves permission to embrace what might be called the feminine archetype. I hesitate to speak generally about “masculine” and “feminine,” but I think men should give themselves permission to feel their feelings, to be vulnerable, to support and to allow themselves to be supported — actions that I think are safely associated with a feminine archetype. Many men, I suspect, are not going to figure out how to give themselves this permission naturally; they need to be led. I participate in a men’s group that does this sort of thing. At it’s best, it’s pretty incredible work.

            2) It seems to me that many women — perhaps most women — are attracted to men who are assertive in acceptable ways. What’s acceptable varies from person to person.

            3) When men intrude on women in one way or another — are overly smarmy, or manipulative, or outright sexually aggressive — I would suspect that sometimes it’s the result of a patriarchal sense of entitlement so overgrown that it destroys their capacity for empathy altogether. This seems like what mostly happened in Stubenville.

            But in many cases, I would suspect the misbehavior could be better explained as the result of a painful separation from the feminine.

            I sense a misogynistic vein in pop culture, and it often feels like a wound to me. It seems to me some men — particularly young men — suffer a separation from the archetypal feminine — from the nurturing, support, feminine acceptance and receptivity that might be said to characterize the archetypal feminine. I think that some aggression ultimately results from their inability to connect with this feminine in a healthy way.

            4) I don’t think we live in a time and place when love and understanding are just oozing out of people everywhere you look. This, I believe, affects everybody.

            5) Also, we are saturated with media that consists of fictions of all forms, and our expectations of ourselves and others are almost inevitably shaped by the fictional achievements of people that appear before us on screens. This makes it harder for us to be present to and accepting of ourselves, I believe, and it makes it harder for us to be present to and accepting of others.

            I’ve heard it ventured, for example, that romantic comedies have done for women’s expectations of romance what pornography has done for men’s expectations of sex. I think the comparison is worth some consideration.

I think we should be careful not to expect that our mate — male or female — be as attractive, or dynamic — or anything — as a fictional character. But we do do this. In my view, we’d be better off to delight in one another as we are, and to delight just in the process of being involved with a real human being, flaws and all.

            6) I think for man or woman, no amount of “cilantro” is palliative until one has had the actual experience of attracting someone to whom one is attracted.

            7) Nice men often have grown up watching girls they love fall for jerks. This can be powerful conditioning.

            8) I think it often happens that men, separated from a sense of the feminine themselves, feeling a call to be assertive, wounded by rejection, beset by all sorts of media-fueled expectations, just get CONFUSED. They are trying to feel connection, love, worthiness, fulfillment, but they’re mixed up and lost about how to get it.

            9) There are women out there who feel bent out of shape about masculinity, as a result of bad experiences they have had with men. I can understand why. I think, though, that we all might do well to realize that there are some pretty insensitive stereotypical females out there, too.

            I don’t think the tension between male and female is primarily a tension between male and female; I think it’s primarily between those seeking the healthy and those seeking the unhealthy, the sincere and the avaricious, the sensitive and the insensitive. This conflict has not expressed itself symmetrically in the world of men and the world of women, but it seems to me that that’s the issue. A man being insensitive can hurt someone, and a woman being insensitive can hurt someone, too.

            10) Maybe we’re all putting a little too much emphasis on sex.

            11) Somewhere in here, a one might infer from the original post, it might be useful if more men said, visibly, “I feel…” and “I want to be…”

            And when they start doing this — furtively, I suspect, the way anyone does when they are doing something new — I hope that people around them will listen with a deep respect.

            12) Generally, I can find places where I feel listened to with a deep respect. And: I want to be attractive. I want to be understood. I want to feel that I satisfy a partner emotionally; I want to feel that I satisfy a partner sexually — I want to feel turned on by a partner, and I want to turn a partner on. I want to be accepted. I want to be supported. I want to be committed and to feel that someone is committed to me.

            I feel desire. I want to understand, accept, and express that desire in healthy ways. I want that desire to be understood and accepted.

            I feel vulnerable. I want that vulnerability to be understood and accepted.

            Maybe more like $.03 here, Iben. Maybe more like a nickel. :)

            • @Matt,

              Terrific Matt!!

              Everything just seem so upside down today. Maybe it is this strong influence of narcissism? Could be the breakdown of the nuclear family? I think you learn about the masculine and feminine as a kid growing up in a family. I learned how to respect and appreciate women while growing up in a family with male and female siblings.

              I really don’t know the answer.

              But you did a great job!!

              Kudos.

            • However you count it, Matt, this comment is money!

            • Thanks, hahz! And thanks for reading it! :)

            • FlyingKal says:

              Thank you for a great job putting that into writing, Matt!

  80. Iben

    In light of the link Jules has posted about the single mom, I would like to remind you of a discussion we had few weeks ago.

    http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/hesaid-how-do-men-think-about-sex-anyway/

    I was making a similar point that women truly find very few men sexually desirable and those men are like the guy described in the article, Lou. Women have flings, affairs, and casual relationships with men like these and many of these women go on to marry men they are not that sexually enthusiastic about.

    I said that the way things are, a large percentage of women are not that sexually attracted to their husbands and LT bf’s. They wouldn’t have considered them for a wild passionate convenient fling that is only reserved for men who are top quality in looks. But they marry them anyway because they have more redeeming qualities necessary for stability.

    In response you said something I’d like to reproduce here.

    You have some strange ideas …

    If your hypothesis was correct,then no man could be both sexually attractive and successful in society at the same time (and worthy of marriage.)

    Your writing implies that women live double life’s. That they have a secret sex life with some guys they don’t want to marry. Some dark hidden forbidden sex with X……

    And then an official sex life with ordinary boring men that they cohabit with or are married to.

    WHO are these men women have their forbidden wild sex life with?

    Are they your buddies that brag about their conquests and tell you about how wild women are with them?

    Or is this your experience with women? Are you one of these men women have wild fantastic sex with but never wants to marry?

    Why do I get the impression that you are not the fortunate one to experience sex with a woman that is crazy about you sexually?

    and

    What do you know about female sexuality and desire Tim? how can you be a specialist on how women think and feel about sexuality and desire? To me you come across as a bitter man

    and then

    Women like to have sex with men who respect them

    • @Tim..

      Here is another link from HP. I gives men 10 things NOT to do….

      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/melanie-curtin/ten-things-to-avoid-when-_b_3447210.html?utm_hp_ref=women&ir=Women

      Below is an excerpt from her piece,

      “Nobody wants to fuck Mr. Nice Guy. So stop being him if you want to fuck.”

      Oh well, thought I would share this one too.

      • PursuitAce says:

        Another example of having to be the right person to say the right thing. A guy says this and he’s a misogynist. Melanie Curtin says so and it’s “you go girl”. And this isn’t just a gendered issue. It’s also a power and status issue. If you’re somebody you’re always a little (or a lot) smarter, funnier, hipper, more attractive, etc. than the rest of us. The BS flag should just about fly the highest for this reality.
        My comment to Melanie would be, “I’m a nice guy. I like being a nice guy. Being something else would be like going over to the enemy. If not getting laid is the price for my authenticity then I’m cool with that. How about you?”

  81. Hi Tim
    Just a few words before I go in vacation.
    For me to discuss this with you I need documentation !

    Please come forth with recent reliable research published in scientific journals that most scientist respect .
    I want this sort of evidences . Because I do not believe you are right. So you have to convince me.

    To me it sounds strange to hear you say that women marry men they do not want to make love to.
    As far as I know( but I know little) most couples have sex 2-3 times a week in Scandinavia.

    If you are right you have come up with evidence.
    And please do not come with ” research ” done by Durex,or dating sites. Or ” research ” based on questions asked to women about men’s attractions by showing them photos . Women do not choose partners in real life based on photos. We base it on smell and a lot of deep feelings we are nearly even aware of when we are near them. Adam can tell you more about that.

    Then we can talk when summer holidays are over.
    I look forward to it Tim!
    But I see a typo. I should have writes:” women want men they respect” . That is dr. brandy Engels words .
    I have bought her book :” the men on my coach” and will read it this summer. Then I will know a lot more about men and their erotic dreams…

  82. Hi Jules

    Yes I will.
    I have browsed through Dr. Brandy Engel’s book :” the men on my coach” today.
    She answers many of the questions you asks. I can recommend it,and it is not expensive,
    Good summer to you and the woman with the pink pen.

    • Iben…

      Thank you very much. She also has a purple pen too!
      Good luck to you on finding love. I have not given up. Just still seeking and searching.

  83. Hi Matt
    I hope this thread will be running also after the summer for us living up north. I am on vaction and can not follow the debate.

    But let me say this:” WOW!”
    In The Huffington I read the comments after the article about the single mother and her weekend with Lou.
    Many women wrote;” send me Lou …send Lou to me”.

    I hope women reading your thoughts ,insights and reflections say:” send Matt to me!”.

    And I hope I can comment in all this later this summer. Here is one thing I liked a lot:

    ✺ “think it’s primarily between those seeking the healthy and those seeking the unhealthy, the sincere and the avaricious, the sensitive and the insensitive” ✺
    I am so glad you are here and share your insight with us.

    • You’re too kind, Iben! I am interested in seeing what other discussions might occur here, too. Enjoy your vacation!

      Matt

  84. Hi FlyingKal

    Thank you for the link about professor Bente Træen that tell us that most Scandinavian married and cohabitation couples now have sex 1-2 times a week but earlier they had 2-3 times a week. So this falling libido is not only an American phenomena.
    Bente Træen explains this as a result of stress in both men and women.

    This issue of low desire in women was also dr. Brandy Engler’s dissertation.
    I am sorry I misspelled dr. Brandy Engler’s name . Sometimes I wonder if I am slightly dyslectic.

    Dr.Brandy Engler has written many good articles here on GMP. She is a sexologist and wrote her dissertation on low desire in women.
    Has she written about this issue here on GMP?

    I will send her an e-mail about this and ask if she will share some of her knowledge with us later on.

    • Iben…

      “the men on my couch” -Dr. Brandy Engler

      I am up to Alex. I love this book.

      Thanks for sharing.

      Hopefully, you are having a great time on your vacation!

  85. The advise to men here is good, but there also needs to be advise to women. The “dating game” is a two-way street and men can’t escape the role of “predator” unless women also change how they approach their role in the male-female sex-dating dynamic.
    It’s no good for men to change the way that they think and act towards women, if women aren’t also changing the way that they think and act towards men.

  86. Gilgamesh23 says:

    Thank you.
    -A Cis Male

  87. Thank you! Its a topic thats irked me for years. Every time I mention that I hate seeing guys portrayed as idiots or predators I get the side look. Hope this attitude is finally changing….its been so annoying.

  88. Klyingkal
    I think you and I talk about two different things.

    Somebody here (maybe Tim )repeatedly tells us that women are only attracted to 25-30% of all men in their society.

    I interpret this as he say women do not want sex with,can not fall in love with,do not desire, can not be turned on by more than 25-30% of all men in their society. But they live with men,simply to exploit them economically or emotionally . Or enjoy living with men as if they were brothers and sisters.

    Well,I don’t think so.

    And since more than 25-30% of women cohabitation or are married,this means lots and lots women fake,and behave like prostitutes in their marriage. Or refuse any sexual contact from day one.

    How can this be possible in 2013. This is not the eighteen or nineteen century marriages we have today? Or is it?

    A fall in desire and lido for both men and women in the western world is not the same phenomena,but I agree they are related.

    To discuss why some in sexless marriages is important.

    This month a read about a doctor desertion in my country about why men marry today .
    They married if they had economic gain,otherwise they prefers to cohabited with their woman.

    Interesting don’t you think?

    • FlyingKal says:

      Hi again, Iben.

      I think you and I talk about two different things
      Yes, I’m pretty sure we are, most of the time. Even if I don’t know what you are thinking about with this particular remark since I don’t know what you are replying to 😉

      I don’t think there’s a lot of people who *refuse* sexual contact from day one. However, it seems to be something like a fast and/or steady decline in the interest, once the committed and mutually exclusive state has begun. But if it’s all talk and no action, if a woman says every morning before they go to work “I can’t wait to see you naked tonight!” but then just crash in front of the TV with no interest (and no explanation!) whatsoever, with nothing else to do, -every-single-night! How else are you supposed to interpret her behaviour other than A) she’s not particularly attracted to her man, or B) She’s not very interested in sex at all??

      Forgive me if I’m wrong, but I seem to recall that you said yourself that you were never told (by your parents?) that sex was suposed to be important in a marriage?
      Well, I don’t think that,s something you should need to be told. I think if you have a sex drive, this is something you actually figure out for yourself.
      This is 2013, as you say. How can it still be possible that people don’t know if they are interested in sex or not?

      This month a read about a doctor desertion in my country about why men marry today .
      They married if they had economic gain,otherwise they prefers to cohabited with their woman.
      Interesting don’t you think?

      I don’t know what a desertion is (but I can guess).
      But anyway, I think that the question of marriage vs. cohabitation is of far less interest than the question about (mutual) attraction, and the ability/possibility of “obtaining” a partner in the first place.

      • @FlyingKal…

        I think you touched upon the central issue: sexual attraction while married. Or a more broad question as you say of mutual attraction. Yet, it is something the vast majority of women here just refuse to address. I think it is easier for a lot of women to just dismiss any serious discussion. After all, I think as far as sex is concerned, most do not find that to be a challenge.

        I am divorced so going down the marriage road again is simply not an option. Cohabitation? Maybe.

        Just my opinion I guess.

        • FlyingKal says:

          Thank you, Jules.

          Yes, it’s a discussion that’s hard to pinpoint. I’ve been trying to bring it up on other discussion boards, more or less dedicated to relationship issues, and also seen other, mostly men do the same. But most of the times it’s dealt with by deflection or dismission, trying to assign the problem to an arbitrary aspect of the total life situation and then dealing with that arbitrary aspect instead.

        • Hi Jules

          I understand you.
          And women should be honest Jules.
          But there is no secret conspiracy among women to hide” the truth ” from men. And you Jules nearly see women sexuality as demonized just like some women see men’s sexuality as demonized.

          Why don’t we ask dr.Brandy Engler to write an article here on GMP about this?
          This is her speciality , learn woman how to bring back their libidos if they have problems.
          She will use other words but this is how I understand her.

          Then we can hope for a fruitful debate.

          I am in contact with her,and will send her a few words later this summer.

          • @Iben….

            I think your comments are fair. Believe it or not, I am a fair and open minded man.

            I am reading Dr. Engler’s book as I write! I am up to Alex. I love the book!

            Next, I am going to read “What Do Women Want?…….” by Daniel Bergner. It deals with female sexuality. It is supposedly a bit more scientific and scholarly.

            So, by the end of next week, I can compare and contrast the two books. More importantly, I hope to have gained some valuable insights and understanding that will make me a better man and person.

            Cheers!

            • Hi Jules
              I will read the book.
              Here is my last thoughts befor I withdraw:

              This guy Flyingkal lives with a woman but also used porn regularly. She knows nothing. He is totally dishonest about it.

              How can you use porn and think it will not leave an imprint,and not have an effect your sex life and your intimate relationship with the woman you share your life with?

              How stupid! Sorry,but this is so unintelligent I will call it stupid.

              Maybe she got disgusted with the man sexually because he came to her with his head filed with porn,and all she sensed was how :” this is not love”. This is weird……..he is dirty somehow…..

              How naive can you be to think you can use porn in secret and hide it from your partner and it does not affect you as a lover?
              How naive can you be that you do not understand how this sexual relationship has more than two persons,it has she+him+and all the persons he masturbated with between the days he had sex with her.

              For some women this is OK,but for others it is a turn off and he will never be able to turn her on again. So men that use porn in secret in their relationship like FlyingKal tells he did will never get any sympathy from me when they are a total failure as lovers.

              But what dr.Engler write about porn is interesting. She is good!

            • FlyingKal says:

              Iben,
              You don’t know anything about me. You have made up your mind about what kind of person I am and there’s nothing I can do about that.
              But, could you at least have the courtesy to not spread lies about me when you think I’m not reading…?

            • FlyingKal
              I DO expect you have a smartphone like all the rest of us .

              Since you asked me questions I tried to answer some of them.

              I shall stop communicating with you.

              But you have told us on GMP that you used porn in secret while you lived with this woman. So this is not lies spread by me,it is me remembering what you have told about yourself.

            • FlyingKal says:

              As far as I can remember, what I said was that I started to use porn long AFTER our sex life had dried up, Therefore I’m pretty sure it didn’t effect our sexlife or my performace as a lover to her…

              If you have other information about me, I’m sure you can point it out. Otherwise I would expect an excuse from you for calling me disgusting and an idiot…

              Other than that, we have both repeatedly said that we should ignore each others comments. So why would I waste my vacation time answering your posts here, regardless of what kind of phone or internet connection I use?

      • Hi FlyingKal

        The woman you lived with promised sex,but then refused.
        I