The Danger in Demonizing Male Sexuality

male sexuality

Alyssa Royse explains how our current predator/prey model of sexual relationships is harmful to both men and women.

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Jamie Peck over at The Gloss, wrote a great little piece asking a great big question: Can Men Write About Sex Without Sounding Like Douchebags?  In asking, however, she wasn’t pointing at men and suggesting they are douchebags so much as she was pointing at all of us and suggesting that we have a tendency to demonize male sexuality. She rightly points out that most of the men who achieve any sort of status and acceptability in writing about sex are somewhere on the gender queer spectrum. Sure, James Deen has a successful blog, but if you read most of the comments on it, there’s this weird anger at him for being a porn star, and enjoying it and writing about it. It is couched in the assumption that he is just doing what every guy in the world would fantasize about doing, because, you know, the only thing straight guys want to do is pound as much pussy as possible.

Puzzling.

I was trying to wrap my head around why that was, and unable to come up with anything really to contradict it, when the incredibly brilliant Sabrina Morgan left the following comment on Facebook:

Cis men are also in the position of the cultural desirer, never the desired; many genuinely believe that since “no one” finds them sexy/since their sexuality is considered threatening, no one wants to hear what they have to say about sex.

God, that woman is brilliant. And she’s right. It is at least possible that women love the likes of Dan Savage because he is in no way threatening to us. I could be drunk, dirty-dancing on his lap and he’d be all like, “bitch, please, put that shit away.” I like to think he’d also give me warm milk and tuck me in, but who knows. The point is, he is no threat to me.

But more than that, he is an ally. He has, time and time again, stood up for the rights of women  to have full agency and autonomy over our bodies, spoken out against rape culture, and generally paved the way for an open dialog about human sexuality and our right to it. (Yes, I know there are many people who have serious bones to pick with him, he is not perfect, but on the whole, he is an example of a man who can write about sex without being called a douchebag for doing so.) Charlie Glickman can write about sex and sexuality without being called a douchebag, but he is also widely considered queer, and not a threat to anyone.

But to Sabrina’s point, what of the cisgender men? Specifically, heterosexual cis men? How we read their words has so much to do with what we, as a society, assume about their sexuality and how it manifests. Society seems to have set heterosexuality up as a thing that involves men pursuing, and women either accepting or rejecting—mostly rejecting.

This starts young. I live in Seattle, which is, by any standard, a very progressive city. Many of us do a mommy / daughter sex-ed class at Seattle Children’s Hospital as our daughters get close to starting menstruation. In the session of the class that is less about biology and more about navigating sexuality, the presenter offered the idea that girls would have to start learning how to say “no” to boys who were going to want to touch them sexually.

I looked at my daughter, who sort of rolled her eyes at me. And the woman went on, listing the many ways that girls could rebuff boys. I looked at my daughter again, and she said, “go ahead mom.” And I did. I raised my hand and said, “Can we also talk about how to teach girls to say ‘yes’ to sexuality. Can we teach them that sex is about pleasure for all parties involved, and that learning how to identify and say ‘yes’ to things that give them pleasure is how they learn to draw their boundaries and say ‘no’ to things that don’t.”

She replied that surely I could understand that protecting girls from boys was more important. I told her that I surely did not see it that way.

But it starts that young. Yes, girls are told that boys are predatory and somehow out of control. The corollary there is that boys are told they are predators, and out of control. Therefore, not a desirable thing, but a thing to defend against. From the get-go, we are teaching our kids to fear male sexuality, and to repress female sexuality.

As they age, and their media exposure extends beyond the protective (and crappy) bubble of children’s programming, we see example after example of men having to pull huge gestures to lure women into sex, or catch them, or trick them. Just off the top of my head: In Superbad when one of the guys talks about getting girls drunk enough that they can be “that mistake;” in Spiderman when he shoots a web to catch the girl who said “no” half a dozen times, pulling her in for an epic kiss that leaves them both breathless; in Anchorman when the guy uses a cologne made with “bits of real panther” that “60% of the time works every time” to get the girl. I could go on and on, but that point is that popular culture sets up this idea that men are sexual predators who need to resort to trickery and cologne to fulfill their one and only mission, which is sticking their penis in a girl.

It’s sad. It’s insulting. And it’s damaging.

♦◊♦

This way of looking at male sexuality conflates sexuality with predation. It means that he who posseses sexuality is assumed a predator.

That is obviously damaging to the vast majority of men who simply are not. They want and like sex just as much as the rest of us. However, it’s downright dangerous when you extrapolate that out to situations like the horror of Stubenville. It is this line of thinking that allows people to say, “boys will be boys.” As if this kind of predation is just natural for guys, when in fact it is not normal for guys to be predators. Most men are not predators.

Steubenville, and the way-too-many incidents like it, are not examples of natural male sexuality. There are examples of a violent rape culture than perpetuates the idea that predation is the natural manifestation of sex.

So with this in our mind’s eye, no, it is not possible for us to believe that heterosexual cis men can write about sex without being douchebags.  And that breaks my heart.  It breaks my heart as someone who loves men, in a whole lot of ways.

You do not need to trick us into sex, in fact, you shouldn’t. And you don’t need a cologne with bits of real panther to attract us. In fact, lay off the stuff, seriously. A little dab’ll do ya.

♦◊♦

So, how can we all work together to change our collective impression of male sexuality as something that is dangerous and disgusting? Besides the obvious—understanding male privilege, dismantling of patriarchal mythology and ending rape culture? Those issues are far too big for me to take on here, but without accomplishing those three, nothing changes. So while we work toward those goals, here are some steps to take along that path:

1. Be an ally. Help us stop the violence against women. I am assuming that none of you would do what happened in Stubenville, but would you have helped stop it? Have you been vocal about how wrong it was? About how that should not represent you or your sexuality?  From a societal perspective, we need your help. From a personal perspective, when we feel safe, we let our guards down, and that’s the first step to an intimate connection.

2. Ask women what they want, and listen to what they tell you. We are all different; we all want different things from the men in our life. Rather than getting lost in a frustrated guessing game, ask us. Listen to our answers. Tell us what you want, with words, and listen to our responses. Whether it’s sex or any other relationship, the best way to not be seen as predatory is to not act like a predator. And that means communication, not acquisition. Which, by the way, is also called consent. “Yes” is the safest word of all.

3. Let us in, don’t lure us in. Lay off the cologne, the pick-up lines, and the games. Please. Trust that you do not need to trick people into wanting you. Trust that you are worthy, just as you are. And that you deserve someone who wants you for who you actually are, how you actually are.

4. Don’t take it personally. Your self worth is in no way connected to whether or not some girl (or guy) wants you. I am constantly telling people to “Consider Cilantro.” (Seriously, I need that on a t-shirt.) Some people love cilantro. Some people think that cilantro tastes like tinfoil soaked in dish soap. That in no way reflects on the worthiness of  cilantro. And cilantro never takes it personally. If you can, don’t even think of it as rejection, you are just cilantro sometimes. After all, you’re not attracted to every person you meet, why would every person you meet be attracted to you?

5. And lastly,know that your body is beautiful. I, like most females, was warned that penises and balls and anuses were gross. I was told to hold my nose, close my eyes, get it over with. Imagine my disappointment when I saw my first penis and there were no festering boils hissing my name, no sulfurous clouds wafting up from a menacing member.  I thought it was kind of cute. As I learned more about them, I grew to love them, in and out. Hell, there are times when I was sure I heard angels giving hummers on high when I’ve see one. Most of us straight chicks really like your bodies. You don’t need to trick us into liking them. That is what makes us straight, after all.

However, they are not lures, and we are not fish. Do not, ever, show them to us unless we ask for it. The bonus for you is that when we ask for it, it’s because we want it, so you aren’t really risking rejection at that point, Mr. Cilantro.

♦◊♦

I am sorry that generations of lazy storytelling and bad media have perpetuated the myths of men as predators and women as victims. Or the idea that women’s purity is what can redeem the nastiness of male sexuality. It is wrong for both men and women alike.

But the only way we’re going to change it is together, and it’s gonna take time. We need to all be better. Oh, hey, I know, we need to come together—if we want to, that is. You can also come alone. Or with someone else. Aint’ no skin off my back, as long as it’s all consensual. And, hopefully, pleasurable.

 

 

Photo: Flickr/ robnas

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About Alyssa Royse

Alyssa is freelance writer, speaker, fitness trainer and personal coach living in Seattle with her husband and their 3 daughters. They own a gym that she is not legally allowed to tell you the name of because it contains a trademarked word that she paid a lot of money to be affiliated with, but can't use without violating the trademark. She can also be found on her eponymous blog, where she pontificates about food, family, politics and the Seattle rain. Yes, she would love to speak at your event, host a workshop or write something for you. Just ask.

Comments

  1. Thank you for the article. You took words out of my mouth, words that I’ve said to other men on many occasions. What you did not say was that a part of being an ally is to talk with other men about these issues. My bête noir is “essentializing” You know, “Men are like this, women are like that”. You’d think that in a society like ours that affects to prize individualism, this would not be so prevalent.

    Of course, both men and women would like a foolproof instruction manual to negotiate relationship with another person, whatever the gender/sex mix might be. But putting on a mask or putting one on your partner is not the way to have connection. Even if such behaviour succeeds, what has it succeeded in getting? The experience of sex is great; fully experiencing a partner by means of sex is the grand prize.

    Keep up the good work.

  2. Dina Strange says:

    Penises, balls AND anuses are NOT beautiful. I don’t know what the author is smoking.

  3. El Catcha says:

    Excellent article! it will hopefully start a way overdue conversation on this topic.

  4. El Catcha says:

    The kernel of the problem is in the education:

    “Many of us do a mommy / daughter sex-ed class at Seattle Children’s Hospital as our daughters get close to starting menstruation. In the session of the class that is less about biology and more about navigating sexuality, the presenter offered the idea that girls would have to start learning how to say “no” to boys who were going to want to touch them sexually.

    I looked at my daughter, who sort of rolled her eyes at me. And the woman went on, listing the many ways that girls could rebuff boys. I looked at my daughter again, and she said, “go ahead mom.” And I did. I raised my hand and said, “Can we also talk about how to teach girls to say ‘yes’ to sexuality. Can we teach them that sex is about pleasure for all parties involved, and that learning how to identify and say ‘yes’ to things that give them pleasure is how they learn to draw their boundaries and say ‘no’ to things that don’t.”

    Which social agents teach ANYTHING to young boys, about who women are, what is proper behavior, the notion of mutual respect?

    None! How insane is that?

  5. A.ka. the media says you girls should have a low sex drive? ???? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah! ! Have you ever seen a music video lately? Sicki Minaj, ke$ha, Madonna etc etc etc ….

  6. An honest criticism says:

    I think the author here is on the right track. But I feel she is still relatively at the start of coming to an understanding of shame and how it affects male sexuality. I don’t mean to criticise the effort at all; few people dare to even take the first step down that path – blaming men and treating them like flawed aliens from a different planet is much easier.

    This is also an extremely deep and complex topic, and I am sure it is particularly hard for a woman to understand male sexual shame because you don’t feel it inside of you and have not lived it. I believe most men don’t understand it either, because it is still unconscious in most of us, and we can be rather uniquely talented at emotional repression and untalented at emotional self awareness And men thinking / talking about emotions is a very part of that shame. So I think our ability to draw attention to the problem also tends to be poor.

    We are taught that there is something wrong with us if we are not having sex. That there is something wrong with us if we don’t want to have sex with someone. That if there is tension with someone and it does not end with sex, we are flawed (even if actually we are the ones who don’t want to go ahead, we feel shame for not having done so). We sleep with people we don’t like and don’t find connection with because not doing that means we’re inadequate. We are taught that we are inadequate if we are not promiscuous. We are taught we are inadequate if we say no, that we are flawed if we don’t feel chemistry, comfort or attraction, and that we are insufficient if we can’t make a move in spite of not feeling chemistry, comfort or attraction. Chemistry to many a woman is something that just happens – it is there or it is not. To many a man, chemistry is something he has to create, and he is flawed if he cannot, is unable to, or doesn’t want to.

    We are not shown desire and we are taught we are not desirable. We are taught that our body is disgusting. We are treated like we have no sexual options, like we’re desperate by nature and like we’ll take any scrap of sexuality that could be throw our way. It’s disgusting, and makes us feel disgusted at ourselves. Whenever we try to help or just be friendly, particularly with a stranger, we’re treated like we’re ‘trying’ something, we are treated like predators and looked at in disgust (except if we look hot, then it’s OK except the interaction is sexualised and we get objectified). And when after enough attempts at being friendly and being treated like we’re disgusting we stop trying, we are then blamed because “chivalry is dead”.

    We are taught that our body has no value. That our sexuality has no value. That a woman is doing us a favour if she has sex with us.

    We are taught that we are second class men, that we are inadequate and flawed, if we date a woman who is anything less than extremely beautiful. As if only beauty matters, and the status of a man is determined by the beauty of his woman. Whether she makes us happy is irrelevant. If she is not beautiful, we are flawed and second-rate.

    If we are with a girl and don’t want to “make the move” – say we don’t feel comfortable enough with someone to want to share our sexuality with them – then we are “socially awkward” or a “loser”. Because the idea that maybe, just maybe, you just don’t make us feel comfortable is lost out there. After all, it’s our job to make women feel comfortable and safe. But the idea that men might need to feel comfortable and safe too is shameful. Man up!

    We constantly encounter girls who don’t know how to say yes – the author touches on this – but she does not explore the consequences. Have you ever been with someone who you want to sleep with, and who you can tell beyond doubt *wants* to sleep with you, but who is bound by shame, who thinks that if they allow themselves to do what they want, they will be judged. Worse, someone who will judge themselves as being a ‘slut’ if they say yes? Who will tear themselves up the following morning? This is a dynamic in women we have to deal with *all the time*. And do you know what happens to work in that context? Predatory behaviour. You see, if a woman wants to sleep with you, and she can justify to herself that you ‘made it happen’, ‘were persistent enough’, ‘tried hard enough’, tricked her’, that she only came up to ‘see your new painting’, or ‘hear your new album’, that it ‘happened naturally’, as if ‘by magic’, if she ‘was drunk’ – if she somehow was tricked or not in control, or otherwise entirely uninvolved in the decision to have sex with you, then it’s not her fault that she had sex and so she’s not a slut. And she did what she wanted to do anyway, without the shame. If you’re a guy, your experience of having sex with women is not only about mutual attraction, connection and honesty. Love it or hate it, half the story as we experience it is about navigating women’s inner shame. Predatory behaviour, in this sense, can be adaptive, for as long as women continue to be shamed. It gives women an excuse to escape their own shame.

    It takes some years and confidence and piles self-awareness to decide that you’re just not going to deal with women like that any more – you can make that your boundary. But that takes something and undoing the piles of the inner shame on the lines I describe above. Then we limit ourselves to women who are authentic and self-aware and who don’t need the deception because they know how to say yes. It’s possible, but a long road there.

    The author also entirely misses this dynamic when she says “ask women what they want, and listen to what they tell you.” Most women will *not* tell you what they want. There is too much shame there either way. They could be uninterested, but afraid to turn you down because they fear losing you as a friend or being disliked, or because their ego needs male attention even though they are uninterested. They could be interested, but turn you down because they feel a need to play hard to get or don’t want to appear easy or slutty. It’s a bloody shame-fest out there and ‘listening to what women tell you’ just does not cut it. At all.

    What, in my experience, does cut it is to become highly emotionally intelligent, empathic and emotionally aware. That allows you to read past the words, to the intentions. It allows you to grab and sweep off the ground the woman who says no but means yes, and it allows you to stay away from the woman who flirts and never says no, but means no or is only out there to use you for attention. And then it allows you to avoid both those types of women and to find one who has emotional integrity and self-awareness, and who has through self-love evicted enough of her inner shame to be able to be shamelessly and wonderfully herself. To finally find a woman who you can ask what she wants, and listen to and trust what she tells you. ABut good luck doing that if you’re a man. For that requires emotional self awareness, something the shame itself prevents us from developing – our entire upbringing is stacked against us doing that.

    And one more gripe with the author – she tells us to “never show [our] body unless [women] ask for it”. With all due respect, my body is my body. It is not there for women’s gratification, and I will do whatever I god damn like with it. It is amazing to hear that from a woman after all women go through in this department. If only she even started to understand the shame and social conventions that restrict men’s choices in clothing. Women complain that they are judged for what they wear. Men go around the world basically wearing uniforms – the work uniform or the casual uniform. Ever wonder why? Men, justifiably, get given grief if they comment on what a woman wears. But good luck being a man and wearing something as offensive as speedos at the beach. All while neither we nor women notice the double standard.

    Don’t mean to be too harsh with the author. This article is a good step in the right direction. It’s encouraging that a woman is thinking about these things. (As much as it’s discouraging that men seldom do). But it’s far from really being a fair representation of the issue yet, in my view.

    • I love your excellent response to the article that has helped me to really piece together what I’ve seen and tried to comfort the men in my life through… I think it’s a better article in its own right, and I’ve reposted it along with the original article.

      There is one point where I think there was a misunderstanding. You speak of “never show our body unless women ask for it,” I think this is actually a specific reference to dick pics in the original post, as if guys believe they are a lure to hook a girl in to play with them. I have no idea how that has become so common or so popular, but almost every guy who’s tried to date me has sent me pics. It’s actually a big turn-off.

      I like to say that, “If I like you, I like your dick. I won’t like you specifically because of your dick, that’s not how it works… but all of us will have a great time if I like who you are!”

    • Great article! Thank you, Alyssa! By the way, that is myself in that image. It took a great team of professionals and a lot of hard work to create it. Please feel free to credit us; We would appreciate it!
      ©Robert Bejil Photography 2013
      Models Jin N Tonic & Joshua Keith Mathews

      Thank you!

  7. Having lived in Europe for a few year and living in various parts of the USA. I am amazed that excepting British or other foreign women in the US. The only women who have initiated sex with me here in the USA …are foreigners. In the UK women were much more forward about what they wanted and I was approached more than once. In the US it has almost never happened even for dates, much less sex and it seems to be getting worse. The model of man as predator/woman as prey/victim is extremely unhealthy for men and women. I also have to say whenever I have had conversations about STDs etc with women and I generally start out with the fact that I think it is important to know ones sexual health meaning my own. They are most reluctant to even approach the subject. The reaction I get seems to be often rooted in the predator/prey guilty/innocent paradigm that says women are pure until some man “gives” them some STD. Of course where did the guy get it…probably some woman. Health is health and being able to talk about it is important. Honest, considerate conversation is a start. Sex should be about breaking down barriers to communication and mutual pleasure. Oh to live in a culture that likes sex again. I miss it.

  8. Jules

    You write that there are no prostitutes for women.
    But there are us Jules.

    Some work as giggolos, others as ordinary prostitutes .
    I worked a short time in jail,and spend all day talking with the inmates,many serving time for drug offenceThey told me how they in periods lived as giggolos and was sort of kept by a women,and she made it possible for them to use their drugs,but live a decent life. So that was good periods of their life’s. when lived with her, they said. But I do not believe in the myths of the happy prostitutes.

    And look up Cameron right now on GMP about sexual exploitation ( commercial) of boys. His article came this week.

    Here is a study on the commentator gave us there:
    http://www.hindsightgroup.com/Resources/Documents/UTR%20Manitoba.pdf

    In my city the male prostitute that focus on women are found in the largest malls,shopping center in the city. It is easy to spot them if you are a women past your prime,like me. And of course other places that I do not know about.

    The film festival in Cannes has shown films produced about this the last years. We have female sex tourism of white and Japanese women to Africa and Caribbean. Some women are middle age but also young women travel to exploit black men for sex in underdeveloped countries. And they pay for sex.
    Men find it hard to watch these films. They are heart breaking. But this is facts about society today.

  9. Typo

    I wanted to write :
    But there are Jules.
    There are prostitutes for women.

  10. Male prostitutes hanging out at shopping malls? personally I’ve never heard of this phenomenon in the U.S. Never. Never observed it. The only guys I see at malls are teenagers and husbands/boyfriends following around their wives/girlfriends.

    I think that women paying for sex is a fringe phenomenon. I doubt it will ever be popular with the vast majority of women. The idea that I would be so unattractive that I’d have to resort to paying for sex makes me want to crawl under a rock. If I ever reach that point, I’ll be celibate. I expect most women feel that way.

  11. @Iben…

    You are correct. I should have not said there were none.

    The sex tourism of largely white middle age women traveling to Africa and the Caribbean (Rent A Rasta) does exist. However, what you are describing is not formal prostitution as we know it. Yes, these largely white American women are paying them $$$$$ and gifts for sex. But, it that they want the “Black experience.” Many are just fearful/embarrassed if their friends knew they were having sex with a black man. So, they have to go offshore. Crazy I know. But, racism itself is crazy.

    Prostitution is legal in certain parts of Nevada (not Las Vegas). One brothel hired a male prostitute for women. He quit after 2 weeks. Why? No work!

    But, note that it is American women who are doing this OUTSIDE the US. As for the gigolo, this is more like a quid pro quo deal. It is like me, a 50 year old guy, giving money to a 25 year old for “companionship.” She is not a prostitute per se. I buy her Jimmy Choo and go to dinner. We have sex…..

  12. Happy sex workers will nearly..should always be people whom chose to do it, vs being trafficked n forced into it.

  13. In the Barbary coast era of SF back a hundred years ago, there was in fact a brothel that catered to woman folk… it went out of business quite quickly for lack of patronage. According to legend the only women who went, were female prostitutes from elsewhere in the quarter and most out of a sense of curiosity. I think it showed that without the birth control pill, women were unlikely to pay a man in order to have sex for its own sake.

    But now, 50+ years after the pills invention and still not much male prostitution for women… I’m just throwing it out there… but is it possible that women don’t by and large, have sex for the sake of sex? Will most women continue a relationship with a man who doesn’t want kids? or is sterile? Somehow I doubt it. I remember watching a terrible documentary about Dole and how they sterilized an entire village of male workers in Central America with some kind of illegal insecticide… as a side note it turned out that all of their wives left them after that. I could be wrong, but I don’t think the reverse would’ve been true and that any man who did would be rightly chastised.

  14. ogwriter says:

    Iben So, white and Japanese women exploit minority men for sex?Yet,another example of how deceptive and false many women are about their own lust and desire.I don’t care that they desire sex without commitment.It’s the lying about it,ensuring that only men are blamed is pathetic. All of which underscores why I would rather not be the other guy,not the husband or boyfriend.

  15. @Sarah….

    Yes, there are male prostitutes at major shopping malls. However, they are there for gay men primarily.

    Occasionally, some of these guys are after high status women who are more willing to pay for a romp than others.

  16. You feel that way because as a woman, you were brought up in a society who puts the female body on a pedestal and hypersexualizes it. Girls are to be desired, guys aren’t. Thus guys grow up with a much less developed idea of self worth because it is rarely ever gets put to the test. An ugly female will always still feel the need to be desired, while an ugly male doesn’t have that problem so prostitution is more acceptable.

  17. Iben,

    Hello!

    I would like to get your thoughts on this piece.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/emma-johnson/ingle-moms-and-other-stro_b_3117711.html

    Thanks.

  18. I think you’re wrong. If, as I have, you were told frequently throughout your teenage years that you are ugly, and “why are you so ugly?” you do feel the need to be desired, whether you are male or female. J, I don’t know what gender you are. If you are a man who thinks men don’t need to be desired, then you’re just speaking for yourself; if you’re a woman who is assuming men don’t need to be desired, well I’m afraid not only are we not told we’re desirable as frequently, but we’re also made to think that the need to be desired is shallow, vain etc. Which it absolutely is of course! :-) But it’s the sort of vain shallowness which is accepted as natural in a woman, and considered far less acceptable in a man; it’s not one I feel I can be open about. Imagine a man who wears a toupée, or dyes his hair – both of those are comedy character traits. I’m grey haired at the moment, and I’m very aware it ages me. It adds ten years on to my actual age. I don’t have an old face, but with the hair, people constantly assume I’m older than I am. “Well that’s good isn’t it?” say well meaning friends, “it means you can play older characters; that makes you eminently castable.”
    “Yes I know, but… Yeah, that’s good… but…” and I can’t finish. I can’t say, career-wise that’s great, but actually deep down I want to be attractive to women. I can’t even say it; it’s such a deeply embarassing confession, because men aren’t supposed to feel the need to be desired; funny, we’re supposed to need sex, says the sterotype, but we’re not supposed to feel the need to be desired.

    Prostitution isn’t that acceptable, you know. I mean, it is illegal, you know. Illegal to pay for one that is. It used to be illegal to be one, and they shifted the burden of guilt. Personally I don’t think there should have been any guilt associated with the industry at all. I really pity a guy that feels he has to visit a prostitute, that’s a pretty low ebb where you’ve decided you’re so painfully in need of company it doesn’t matter to you whether they actually want you for yourself rather than just wanting your money; and then to criminalise him as well. Seems a bit heartless to me. I don’t like the industry; I have the same gut reaction as most of us, that it commodifys something that should be founded on love not money; but it seems to me that both parties in that transaction are too desperate a state to be anything other than pitied, not criminalised, and criminalizing it makes them both more vulnerable and unprotected. Same attitude I have to criminalizing drug addicts, I guess. Anyhow, I don’t think it is acceptable, even amongst those that would like to see it legalized.

  19. Jameseq says:

    joseph, im 90% certain that j is a young woman from the f-mob.
    i couldnt imagine men from the f-mob, writing the men have little internal drive to be physically desired.
    (why yes, men are incapable of the experiencing full humanity. men are just flesh robots, not really alive.)

    reminds me of when a woman in a comment wrote that a man using a strap-on, a strap-on would give a congressing hetero couple the same experience of penetration, as when using a p-e-nis.
    from a man’s perspective, very few men, even from the f-mob could write such a crazy thing,

  20. “we’re supposed to need sex, says the sterotype, but we’re not supposed to feel the need to be desired.”

    That was the point I was trying to get at Joseph. In retrospect, I now realize that my wording was poor. It’s not that men don’t want to feel desired, because that’s obviously the reason they’re hiring a prostitute in the first place, but they’re not expected to want to feel desired.

  21. Beatrice says:

    Off topic, I know. I agree that criminalising prostitution makes all parties more vulnerable, but sex workers and their clients don’t need your pity. Not all sex workers are in a ‘desperate’ state, and not all their clients are ‘painfully in need of company’. Just as not all office workers/bakers/nannies/nurses/actors are in a ‘desperate’ state because they choose to use some of their time and skills to earn money, and just as not everyone who pays a secretary/teacher/plumber/cook/mechanic to do something they can’t/don’t want to do themselves is ‘painfully in need’ because they choose to use their money to get the thing they want.
    If you’re going to say prostitution is wrong because sex ‘should be founded on love not money’…shouldn’t ALL actions and interactions be founded on love not money? Shouldn’t we be tilling the fields, baking bread, teaching kids out of love for people, not profit? I don’t disagree with you here, but when you take the sex-negativity out it, your argument against prostitution sounds a lot like an argument for the end of capitalism. Cool!

  22. Hi Jameseq

    Are you sure there is not a typo in your comment ?

  23. Well if that is why he goes to a prostitute, that isn’t what he’s getting. At best a shallow imitation of desire. But this is why men don’t go to prostitutes as a rule. It’s not the common rule. I’ve been celibate for three years now and going to a prostitute still isn’t something I’d consider as an option because it isn’t a substitute for mutual desire. If men have a trust issue with women at the centre of it is the suspicion or fear that a woman might be with him for an ulterior motive. I would want reassurance that the desire and pleasure was mutual.

  24. @Iben….

    Hello Iben!

    I wanted to share with you some insights and views I obtained from reading Daniel Bergner’s new book: “What Do Women Want?”

    The book is fantastic in that it is really a summary of research by female researchers on female sexuality.

    Below is a sampling,

    Marta Meana, PhD is a leading researcher in this area. Referencing his interviews and discussions with Meana, Bergner writes,

    “But when she discussed the work she did with couples, she made clear that she expected only very rare success in the realm of eros, if the measure of success was reviving lust. In around one-third or so of her cases, she could bring back something more mild”

    Continuing with Marta Meana,

    “She recalled giving, at a conference, a candid speech about her track record. One therapist, she said, approached her afterward with a common story. In sessions, a wife had suggested that if only her husband would be sensitive to help out around the house, she would want him in bed. So, the therapist set him to work! She had him scouring pots. She had him tidying. She had him taking the kids to school and picking them up. But the sex did not follow. “We tell men to water this little bonsai of women’s desire,” Meana said to me, “we tell them the bonsai has to be treated just so-and guess what?”

    There is something called the psychiatric profession’s bible, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders or DSM. The manual cover everything from autism to sexual dysfunction. It distinguishes the normal from the abnormal.

    The DSM manual has been revised for the first time since the early 1990s. The DSM sexuality committee was charge with working on female desire. Actually, the current DSM manual contains information about women suffering from “hypoactive sexual desire disorder” or HSDD.

    A new doctrine on female sexual desire is being consecrated “because it gave sex therapists and counselors a solution to one of their most prevalent and stubborn problems-women’s faint or non-existent desire for their husbands or long term partners.” Quoting Bergner.

    So, the waning of desire by women in marriage and long term relationships is real.

    The focus of the book is on just what drives desire. There are several views. If you have not read the book you should. Lots of scientific based research and nearly all by women, including a noted researcher, Lisa Diamond, author of “Sexual Fluidity….” Great book too but focuses more on lesbian sexuality. Contains a wealth of great research though.

    It is a great read with lots and lots of scholarly research.

  25. Alyssa Royse says:

    That is a great book. I interviewed Daniel for about 45 minutes the week before last on my radio show, Sexxx Talk Radio on The Progressive Radio Network. If you are interested in the discussion, you can listen here: http://prn.fm/2013/06/26/sexxx-talk-radio-girls-just-want-to-have-fun-062613/#axzz2YKl7dLmK

  26. Hi Jules
    Thank you for good advice.
    I will order it today together with ” Mating in Capitivty”.
    Unfortunately it takes many weeks before it arrives in my mailbox,but I look forward to it.

  27. @Alyssa..

    Thanks. I am listening to it now.

    Do you agree with many of the findings in the book?

    I have argue on GMP that women are not well suited for monogamy. I have also argued that women are largely responsible for the decline of sex in marriage and LTRs. This book confirms what I have been asserting.

    I just think most women prefer serial dating and to be serial monogamists. What is really baffling is just why so many women marry man “A” but want sex with man “B.” Well, it is not baffling. I now, after three years divorced, know the answer. However, I really cannot understand why so many women do not feel this behavior is wrong and unfair to man “B.”

    I see fluid harems on the horizon very soon. Seriously.

    I see more and more men simply opting out completely. No one wants to be used. Either these men will use sex workers or they will become incels. Why? Women are going to gravitate to that 20%-25% of men who they are attracted too.

    JMO.

  28. I meant man “A” whom she married.

  29. @Iben….

    So far there are three books on this subject that I have learned much from:

    1) “Sex at Dawn”
    2) “Mating In Captivity”
    3) “What Do Women Want?”

    I would have added “Sexual Fluidity……” by Lisa Diamond. But that book is geared more towards how women’s sexuality evolve and reverse course over time. It is aimed at explaining lesbian sexual behavior.

    Esther Perel is great. Since she is from Belgium. She brings the “outsider looking in” perspective. I would say this book is the antithesis of Sex At Dawn. She makes the case FOR monogamy.

  30. @Jules…

    I must say your bitterness is shining through. I don’t know anything about the circumstances of your divorce, but I can unequivocally say it happened because both of you reached an impasse where your mutual interests were no longer enough to hold the marriage together. It wasn’t her fault because she’s a women, and it wasn’t your fault because you’re a man. You’re both responsible, as autonomous human beings.

    Monogamy/marriage is more than a sexual interest, so blaming divorce on just a man or woman’s sex drive is oversimplification. I’ve read “What Women Want,” and the data within that book isn’t arguing that sex drive and cheating alone are the cause of divorce. It’s arguing that women do have these tendencies, and they should be dealt with honestly rather than ignored.

    Us women are constantly told through the media that they should have a low sex drive, and this often leads to their lack of assertiveness in sexual matters. They undervalue the importance of their own sexual desire, and this discontent can fester in a relationship. *BUT* women are also more likely to lack assertiveness in other areas, too, like their own emotional needs.

    In the end, the leading cause of divorce is marriage. I don’t even mean that as a joke, either. Too many people get married in the first place, to people they really shouldn’t have married. Both men and women make this mistake.

    People need to take the time to know someone first before marriage, and to understand themselves most of all. Most people in their twenties don’t know what they want to do today, let alone twenty years in the future. And no healthy person enters marriage simply based on attraction. I’ve met plenty of hot guys, but if a guy is an a–hole, no amount of hotness makes up for that.

    If you want a partner, Jules, work on yourself. Quit blaming others. Everyone is born alone, and dies alone. No point in filling the years inbetween with bitterness over what you aren’t instead of what you can be.

  31. I’m not sure the 20% is gravitated to because they are the most attractive; as I’ve said before I think the culture of pick-ups and hook-ups favours a certain type of male who has a certain salesmanly type of quality – undaunted by rejection, persuasive, manipulative. Just looking on noticeboards of dating sites and you see girls complaining about men they want attention from but he’s shy – I’m guessing he isn’t one of the 20-25% that is getting all the action then – but the girl still feels she can’t play Helena and do the wooing because there’s this set of rules. A quote from the blog – a 25 year old female user of the dating site on the subject of approaching a man:

    “Yes. I’m quite traditional and believe that the guy should always approach the woman first, when he is interested in her profile and what she has to say. Subconsciously, I believe that men like to pursue even though they say they’d enjoy being contacted by a woman. Any woman that contacted them, I feel they’d have less interest in. I don’t ever poke or mail anybody. Unless, they are women that I am interested in going to shows with.”

    Why does she feel that? Because she’s been told it and believed it? Or maybe once she approached a guy and he rejected her? Based on that logic we’d draw the conclusion that women are less interested in men who approach them too, since we’ve all at some point approached a girl and failed. It’s clearly rubbish, we all know it’s rubbish. But this belief is reiterated time and time again. But it’s not traditional – you’re not in a traditional environment; even a nightclub is not traditional, how traditional can an internet dating site be?! Traditionally we live in communities, we see the same people every day, we share experiences, we accidentally discover that we share philosophies, that we both hate the same things, we find there are certain people that we wind up talking to more than other people; traditionally we don’t trot up to someone we’ve never met, start a conversation with them and get to know them well enough to find out whether they are worth seeing again in the space of a half hour conversation. Don’t claim you’re being traditional because you make no effort to attract someone’s attention in a thoroughly untraditional environment.

    To quote Einstein: (I’m in a very quotey mood today) “Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”, similarly if the rule book was thrown away it may be found that a wider variety of males were winners. So I think the 20%-25% you talk of may be less to do with actual attractiveness and more to do with men being tested on a narrow criteria; basically on one skill. Basically, the same skill that politicians use to get elected. How’s that working out for us?

  32. PursuitAce says:

    Exactly. Jules you’re brilliant. This is why along with same sex marriages I advocate polygamy. (Actually I advocate the government getting out of marriage, but that’s a different story.) If women (and men) are willing to share a bit, they can have the top 20 or 30 percent they’re looking for.

  33. @A.Ka….

    Wow! I have a partner and am happy. What on earth makes you think I am bitter. All I said was the book simply reveals what I have been arguing. I think the book does state that waning desire by women for their husbands and long term partner is a fact. How is that bitterness?

    ” I’ve read “What Women Want,” and the data within that book isn’t arguing that sex drive and cheating alone are the cause of divorce. It’s arguing that women do have these tendencies, and they should be dealt with honestly rather than ignored.”

    Correct. I never said it did. All I stated was it was the cause of MY divorce, filed by me. Whatever the cause, be it sexual repression…..the bottom line is the consensus is women have waning desire in long term relationships. This is indisputable.

    I have worked on myself and am not blaming anyone. The facts simply speak for themselves. What irks me is the flagrant denial of the facts by so many married women. Had I know what I now know about women, I would have never gotten married in the first place. Sex is important to me. Is that a crime against humanity? NO.

    Women enjoy sex and typically get all they want from the men whom they want it. Not always of course in every instance. But most of the time. So, why can’t I do the same? Why can’t any man who wants to do the same? I am not into lots of sex partners, personally. Nor do I desire to consort with such a woman.

    We all have preferences. I have mine. They are to be respected too!

    Cheers!

  34. Hi A,Ka
    I like what you say:

    “In the end, the leading cause of divorce is marriage. I don’t even mean that as a joke, either. Too many people get married in the first place, to people they really shouldn’t have married. Both men and women make this mistake.”

  35. Another quote, same site. This girl is slightly younger, so some forgiveness is required: “I think most guys are too eager to talk, send too many messages and can sometimes become a bit clingy, which gives off a desperate vibe.” – now again this is where I think the minority that are good at this game are often the ones least worthy of winning. The ones who send messages rarely are the ones who are sending messages to lots of people. The ones who send messages often are the ones who are directing their attentions to one girl at a time; that would be my interpretation. The girl isn’t making that connection. That perception of hers is filtering out the more sincere in favour of the more pragmatic and manipulative.

  36. Hi Jules
    You write:
    ✺”Women enjoy sex and typically get all they want from the men whom they want it. Not always of course in every instance. But most of the time”✺

    You have to explain what you mean.
    What makes you think women get all the sex they want ?
    And what makes you think ALL women get all sex from the men they long to have sex with?
    Be serious Jules.

  37. @Jules

    Thanks for gaslighting me on this thread you’re camping. I meant what I said, and if you go back and read all your comments, you might see how I could get that impression of you. Probably you wouldn’t. I don’t even know why I’m trying to say anything to you, because it’s clear you’re here to subtly bulldoze people with your own agenda and not to have a real discussion. Your arguments are anecdotal at best.

    I’ve never married myself, but my parents have been together for over 30 years. My father has a serious personality disorder after a brain injury, but my mother is standing by his side. Marriage isn’t all about sex; it’s about two people being together through thick and thin, supporting each other, emotionally and physically. And it’s not an indisputable fact that sexual desire must always wane. It goes up and down, yes, but that’s not entirely the woman’s fault either.

    Your black and white thinking is really what irks me the most. This article isn’t about blaming changes in libido on a specific gender, or saying marriage is a stupid deal. It’s about society allowing a man or a woman to be sexual–or asexual, if that’s their inclination–in whatever healthy way he or she chooses to express that aspect, without being shamed for it. And you, sir, are trying to shame others for their sexual choices right now.

  38. @iben….

    Hello!

    First, I never said ALL women. You quoted me correctly, *Not always of course in every instance. But most of the time”* I said “women” and qualified/limited to not ALL women and not always.

    Secondly, what I mean by the men they want is: if she decides she wants to have sex with a particular man whom she knows, if she offers him sex, she is usually going to get it. The “offer” is not blatant or crude, etc. Can all women have sex with Ryan Gosling? NO! But, I am talking about women of average attractiveness who are sexually active and meet a guy whom she wants sex. In 90% of the cases, unless he is gay, she can get sex from him.

    Remember Iben, most men find the majority of women attractive enough for sex. That majority could be 60% or 70%. I really do not know the precise percentage. But, certainly the majority of women I see daily, I would have sex with them. With women I think the opposite is true.

    I have turned down women (only a few) for sex. They did not react well to it at all. Why did I turn them down? While I love sex, I want it with only a few women. I am not into casual sex or just screwing some strange woman. I practice monogamy and it is best for me.

    I think you seem to think I hold a negative opinion of women. Well I do not. Sorry it comes across to you as such. I resent the double standard that I have experienced. I resent the preferences shown towards a few men but limitations place on many men by a lot of women. NOT ALL WOMEN DO THIS.

    I read on Huffington Post how women complain incessantly about the lack of “decent” men. Decent men are all around them. It is just too many women want that 20%-25% of men whom they really find attractive. Why do you think there are so many incels? They are not all ugly or shy Iben. If women (not all) want men over 6 feet tall, 80% of adult American men have been immediately excluded. So, effectively these women have limited themselves to 20% of men. Hence, they are going to have difficulties finding a decent man over 6 feet tall. It is just simple common sense.

    Physical attraction is usually the first thing that grab men and women attention in a person. Personally, with me, it is not. I can approach and talk to an unattractive woman (and I do) because I want to know who she is as a person: her intelligence, her personality, her experiences in life, her life views and values, her goals, etc. I generally avoid really attractive women. One of the women I turned down was very very attractive. She was a tall, pretty, and shapely brunette in her early 40s. She was really taken aback by my NO.

    I can only speak about what is happening in America. Fortunately, we are a very diverse country and a lot of ethnic women hold very different views (in general) than most white women on this subject.

  39. Hi Jules
    I just listened to Aylissa’s radio program with Bergner.
    He did not talk about women that only want sex with 25% of all males ..
    And when you write this I can tell you that this is NAIVE Jules .
    I am sorry that I use harsh words but this is wrong:

    ✺”if she decides she wants to have sex with a particular man whom she knows, if she offers him sex, she is usually going to get it “✺
    I could tell you lots of reasons why this is a myth but it is so obvious that I will not go into it.

    Lots of men are too intelligent and have too much self respect to jump into bed with just any women that openly invites it.
    And the men I know,they try not to cheat on their woman, but you see all men as unfaithful and sex crazy.

    You do have some issues about women and sexuality Jules.

    And what stops you from letting loose your fierce uncontrollable sexual desires?
    That is the question.

    All men here who talk about how women only desire 25% of men can look at themselves and answer that question: “am brave enough to show real desire for a women and signal that in the bedroom she will experience my fierce uncontrollable sexual desire.?”

    And can they honestly say that they are totally comfortable with women’s sexuality ?

  40. I agree with most of your stance on this! I was talking to my friend yesterday about guys and gals who are ‘top of the food chain’ and how they generally ‘get their pick’ from the remaining population. How its ok to admit that if you had the chance you would and all this ‘everyone’s got different tastes opinion is true, but those top of the food chain peeps are attractive to everyone, because their attractiveness is universal. I am not saying that other traits are not attractive and that people don’t have individual preferences but a good looking, symmetrical, charismatic, healthy person is attractive to everyone, period.
    Good for you for saying no to those ‘attractive’ women. For not feeling like you should just jump in because its offered…. I have actually met quite a few guys recently who have all expressed increased pickiness. My housemate mate is 39 refuses to have casual sex or hook ups because he’s been there, done that and has always preferred a LTR. He could definitely have hook ups all the time, but he chooses not to.

  41. Hi P.A.

    Do you mean many women and many men living together in a comitted relationship in one household llike a big family?
    Is this the same as poly amorous ?
    I think the hippes tried that lifestyle.

    Maybe something happens when couples get children?
    And maybe this lifestyle is not suited to capitalism’s ” need” for mobility of persons and capital.

  42. @PursuitAce…

    Yes, the government should get out of granting marriage licenses. Also, polygamy should be legal. It is already here on a de facto basis anyway. It’s called man sharing and serial dating.

    The fluid harems are coming soon too!

  43. @Iben….

    “Lots of men are too intelligent and have too much self respect to jump into bed with just any women that openly invites it.
    And the men I know,they try not to cheat on their woman, but you see all men as unfaithful and sex crazy.”

    Iben, most men, myself included, are faithful and not sex crazed. So are most women.
    A lot of men pay for sex too Iben. So, don’t you think a lot of men will take it if it is offered up for free. Again, let’s use our common sense here. Maybe it is a different subset of men.

    “You do have some issues about women and sexuality Jules.”

    Yes, I do Iben. I do not have issues with women per se. It is with women and sex. Some men get a free pass, while others must earn sex from women, including husbands.

    “am brave enough to show real desire for a women and signal that in the bedroom she will experience my fierce uncontrollable sexual desire.?”

    Yes, because I am like a sexually deprived animal in the bedroom. Women love it!

    Frankly, I prefer to spend more time out of the bedroom. How about the staircase, the deck, in the back of my truck in the woods, table top, desk, etc. I will do anything except for anal sex. I have no hangups. If she wants to use toys or whatever I am down with it 1000%. I like to dominate a woman sexually.

    “And can they honestly say that they are totally comfortable with women’s sexuality?”

    No. I do not believe most men are comfortable with female sexuality. They, in the aggregate, lack enough experience.

    My religious and moral beliefs stops me from being a player and womanizer. If it were not for that, I would be just like a lot of women: serial dating and enjoying lots of sex with lots of different women.

    Btw, I did not take offense to your comments. Nor do I consider them harsh.

  44. @Iben..

    Hello.

    You should read Lori Gottlieb’s, “Marry Him……….”

    She talks about some of the crazy preferences many women have in men. Unlike women, according to her, men have no emotional attachment to these preferences. Men are willing to compromise. Compromise is known as “settling.”

  45. Hi Jules

    I love you <3
    And I am sorry I was annoyed. Somehow I get angry when I read men here write that women only like 25% of all men.
    What would happen if all the sexual suppression of women ended? Bergner say women are sexually suppressed to protect men's fragile egos.

    If it true that American women only want a little percentage of men today,this will change when suppression women's sexuality ends.

    How can a sexully suppressed person genuinly desire anybody? Even some 25%? Not likely.
    But can men handle such a change?
    And do men want it?

  46. Jules
    What happens to ” Alex”? Is he history now? :)

  47. Having just been asked out by someone describing themselves as a feminist writer today, I can categorically say, men do want it. Well some do. This one does. :-)

    Oh that sounded a bit smug! Only, having been on here for almost a month (the same thread) saying “I wish we’d do away with this whole men pursuers women pursued thing”, it’s enormously gratifying to have your wish answered out of the blue like that!

    And my observation from the experience: I think men would probably get better at chatting women up if we were on the receiving end from time to time and got to see what worked on us and what didn’t.

  48. @Iben….

    You’re great! I like you because you ask very good questions and often challenge my replies. It’s called civil discourse. It means you are an open minded person.

    How I feel is my personal belief and preferences. Others are free to think and choose as they will. You have to look at the big picture. My view is there are men many women (not all) prefer to have sex with. Then their are men women prefer to marry. Usually, in my opinion, they are mutually exclusive.

    As far as the Alpha male thingy is concerned, the men a lot of women prefer to sex may not be Alpha at all. As I have indicated in the past, they could be degenerates,….etc. Sometimes, they are men they would not even consider dating. So, as you stated above it a bit more complicated.

    What really really really annoys me is many women giving these other men a free pass when it comes to sex. But, their husbands are often relegated to sexual misery. To put salt in the wound, many of these women 1) feel it an acceptable practice, 2) their husbands should not complain, 3) it is OK from a human perspective.

    This the number one reason why I shall NEVER marry again. I just do not want to go through what I suffered with my ex wife for over a decade. Never again Iben.

    On the 25% thing. What I am saying is this is the preference for a lot of women. But, there simply are not enough of these men to go around. In reality, they )lots of women) must “settle.” It does not mean he is a beta man. But, more than likely he is. I know you don’t like the alpha/beta thing.

  49. Hee hee. I’m all in favour of an end to Capitalism! But, seriously, there are some areas of life you’d want capitalism to butt out, isn’t there? It’s not like I’m saying I’d replace capitalistic prostitution with state-sponsored nationalised prostitution. I don’t want my tax contributions spent on other people getting laid. I’m generally all in favour of collective responsibility, but there are limits, you know! :-)

    Facetiousness aside, your argument appeals to my head but my gut maintains the traditional societal view. I don’t think the taboo towards prostitution is entriely to do with denigrating or demonizing sex; I think it’s the opposite; if anything it’s because we idealize sex a little, isn’t it? “Money-lenders in the temple”? Isn’t it that? Is it not more to do with the fact that there is something profane about the money-motive, whereas sex has a certain, dare I say, holy quality about it. I think it’s as culturally ingrained as the discomfort about eating horse meat for example, which makes no logical sense (and as it turns out we’ve all unknowingly being doing it anyway, but a lot of people aren’t happy about it, even though none of them can quite explain why they’re not happy with it). I’m not sure it doesn’t stem from our culturally pagan roots. The horse meat thing is a relevant analogy because some cultures have animals they don’t eat because it’s sacred (cows in India), and some have animals they don’t eat because it’s unclean (pigs in Judaism). I have no idea what category horses are, because it’s not enshrined in any existent belief system – it’s just still culturally ingrained. Taboos are interesting, especially when we’ve forgotten what they were about in the first place. Is prostitution uncomfortable because we think (or our ancestors thought) sex is sacred or because it’s unclean? Maybe the two go hand in hand.

  50. @A.Ka….

    First, you give me way to much credit to influence people. I ask tough questions and demand well thought out answers. If a group of scientist observe waning desire on the part of married women for their husbands, then to me it is evidence of what I have long thought and experienced.

    However, until these new researchers (primarily women) challenged the conventional wisdom, men (and women) we taught to accept the conventional wisdom. well, I rarely just accept anything. When married guys sit around and complain about a lack of sex from their wives, that anecdotal evidence. How you can assert much of what I say is anecdotal beats me. If so, then PROVE IT!

    “Your black and white thinking is really what irks me the most.”

    Fine. Then be irked. I am not here to please anyone. I am here to engage in discourse. Just because some of the things I say might be unpleasant to some does not mean what I say is false.

    “And you, sir, are trying to shame others for their sexual choices right now.”

    BS. I scoff at the notion. I could care less. Why? Because I too have a choice. Freedom works. I am not shaming women for their sexuality. I simply reserve the right as a citizen of this damn republic to reject what I consider to be oversexualized women. I find them totally undesirable, period. Does this mean they are bad or evil or whatever. NO!. I simply means I do not want to engage them or date them or fuck them or marry them. Are you telling me I do not have the right to do this?

    You strike me as one of these artsy fartsy type guys who think you have the right to attack any man who express a view that is not politically correct. Well, you can go back to artsy fartsy land. I think for myself. I know what I want and what I like. And I don’t shy away from making it clear.

    If it irks you, tough s**t! Move on A.Ka

  51. Hi A.Ka
    You are right. Marriage is not all about sex.
    What you write here is good:
    ✺” Marriage isn’t all about sex; it’s about two people being together through thick and thin, supporting each other, emotionally and physically. And it’s not an indisputable fact that sexual desire must always wane. It goes up and down, yes, but that’s not entirely the woman’s fault either”✺

    And when we all start to think marriage is all about sex,then we will restrict our dating pool to the few we imagine we can feel a desire for for ever. This means starting in the wrong end.
    I can not express this well but I think you get what I try to say.

  52. Hi Jules
    It sounds like you talk about married women that cheat on their husbands:
    ✺”What really really really annoys me is many women giving these other men a free pass when it comes to sex. But, their husbands are often relegated to sexual misery”✺

    May I ask you one thing Jules:” from where do you get all the facts about who women sleep with when you say women give certain men a free pass.”
    Is this the women in your church?
    Or do you listen to gossip at work?
    And how representative is the women you work with Jules?
    And what if some of them simply have serious emotional problems and mess up their life with men?

    Your view,your hypotheses are based on your personal experience with:
    1: your wife.
    2: listening to gossip at work.
    3: (women in your church. Do they sleep only with ” degenerates”?)
    4: literature about women’s sexual desire. That is good info by the way if it is high quality research.

    I fear you base your views on your experience with women with problems . Problems with men and sexuality..
    Not all women have problems Jules.

  53. Hmm I wonder if your ex was more along the asexuality spectrum Jules? Which in that case she honestly couldn’t help her lack of sexual attraction…Lots of aces get involved in LTR and not realizing that they are asexual may have sex at first to please their partners but after awhile they frankly get sick and tired of it and not understanding what a big deal that sex is to sexual people it honestly never crosses their mind that it might be something you would miss…Or maybe she had a genuine medical problem?

  54. @Iben..

    Hello! Do you get much sleep? Lol! What is the time difference between the US and Denmark?

    A.Ka is correct when he says marriage is not about sex. It IS about sticking with the person you love through thick and thin. However, this is predicated on MUTUAL love. When the love is one sided, it is not to be expected that the other partner is going to remain through thick and thin.

    Sex IS an important part of marriage. It is an essential requirement for me in marriage or dating……For over a decade I endured a sexless marriage. I loved my ex wife. She said she loved me. But, I did not believe her. If you really love someone, you would have sex with them. When I say sexless, I mean less than 10 times per year. We’re talking about two people in their later 30s who were married for almost 15 years. The final two years of my marriage, I stopped sex completely. The once a month or every other month she wanted sex caused me more agony and grief than good. She refused to see a therapist. She simply (like a lot of wives) dismissed my grumblings about the lack of sex in marriage.

    The therapist, Terrence Real wrote a book about male depression. It’s called, “I Dont Want to Talk About It”. This is how I feel many wives (not all) deal with their sexually frustrated husbands. You are simply dismissed! Even on this GMP post, you see some women who flatly do not reply to comments posed to them by men. It is the same kind of dismissive attitude. Yet they say they want to know how we men and women can work together. Well, you have to wonder about their sincerity. After all Iben, women are not impacted by the lack of sex to the extent men. How many women you know are incels?

    So, I do not think marriage or relationships are ALL about sex. However, sex is an essential component of a functional, happy, and loving marriage. Just to be clear on how I feel about the matter.

  55. @Iben….

    “It sounds like you talk about married women that cheat on their husbands:
    ✺”What really really really annoys me is many women giving these other men a free pass when it comes to sex. But, their husbands are often relegated to sexual misery”✺”

    Iben, it has nothing to do with women cheating on their husbands. I am specifically referring to many women who PRIOR to marriage sleep with all kinds of men with hardly any preconditions. Remember “Lou” from the Huffington Post article. She said Lou and her had nothing in common ans she would never date him. But, she freely gave her body to Lou with NO restrictions. All Lou had to do was show up!

    Now, let’s fast forward. That same woman if she got married to “the love of her life” would NOT be so free with sex to her husband. The Daniel Bergner book talks about the “waning of desire” by wives for their husbands. After all Iben, the focus of the book IS female sexuality, desire, and lust.

    So, why is that many women (not all) will engage in this kind of behavior with assorted men, but when they get married, their husbands are shut out sexually? This is what I am talking about Iben.

    My knowledge and view of this matter is not based solely on personal experience. I am an intelligent man who is well read. I have a keen analytically mind. I assume nothing. I gather the data and make my decision accordingly. I have spoken to many many married men. Most (not all) are disappointed with the amount of sex they are getting. And it is not like they are asking for sex daily. Hell, I would have been happy with my ex wife if it was twice a week! As A.Ka this anecdotal at best. So, I decided to start researching and reading. I looked at MANY perspectives on the subject. I saw a therapist. Two as a matter of fact.

    I like high quality scholarly work. Lisa Diamond’s book is of the highest quality, citing hundreds of sources on various sex related topics.

    In America, the feminist movement has been hijacked by an elite group of women who do not even speak for the average woman in America. My girlfriend is a police officer. She is well read and very intelligent. She does not like most feminist women. How can highly-educated elitist white women speak for women in shelters, women of different races, women of different religions, women of different ethnic groups? Women are not a monolithic group just as America is not. Do they know the challenges of these women?

    Yes, Iben, not all women have problems. I never said they did nor implied it or meant to imply it. The issue Iben is when you see a problem, you need to attempt to understand its causes. Otherwise, how do you develop a solution? You cannot! On this topic, the problem is just why so many women give men like “Lou” a free pass with their bodies. Yet, are dismissive of their husbands. It is a fair question.

    America is a great country. But, we also have lots of problems. Nearly 25% of the population is on antidepressants! That tells me there is a problem. Over 60% of Americans are overweight. Poverty is increasing. The largest group of homeless people are children! These are all facts. Just as waning desire on the part of married women for their husbands. Why cannot we talk about this? The feminist want to shut down men on this topic. Only THEY think THEY are qualified to discuss this matter. Many just don’t even bother. We men are viewed as just whining chumps.

    Sorry about the rant. But, I have very strong and passionate views on the subject matter.

  56. @Iben…

    I came across this last week. I share it with you to get your opinion and thoughts.

    http://www.xojane.com/sex/women-are-bored-by-monogamy-and-i-dont-know-whether-im-excited-or-scared

    Cheers!

  57. Hi Jules
    Now you have read the literature .
    Can you tell us if women tend to loose sexual interest in her partner all types of long time relationship or only in marriage ?

    And this a result of our society’s sexual repression of women?
    What is the explanation ?
    I am confused about this.

  58. @Iben….

    “Can you tell us if women tend to loose sexual interest in her partner all types of long time relationship or only in marriage ?”

    Here is an interesting metric: women terminate 70% of all relationships – be they marriages or long term or short-term relationships. In my world, this is simply an observable. It is not pointing fingers or laying blame. Just a fact.

    As an aside, I have a female friend years ago who started dating this guy. I asked her questions about the new man in her life. Her response to me was, “He is just here until something better comes along.” Honestly at the time, about seven or eight years ago, I was a bit shocked. I did not know and understand women then as I do now. Essentially, she thought of him like a paper towel – useful and disposable.

    The only thing i can say from reading and researching this issue is that married women certainly lose interest. To be fair, it might be due to having children. Some of the studies show that kids usually follow in about 2-3 years. Certainly children are going to change the dynamic of the marriage.

    Esther Perel’s book is an excellent read on the dynamic you ask about. She tries to propose solutions for couples. She readily admit that the prized security women seek might also be creating handcuff on sex in marriages.

    Lisa Diamond, “Sexual Fluidity….” has observed waning desire with lesbian couples. She note that gay men just opt for open relationships while lesbian women call it polyamory. She (Diamond) thinks the poly is nonsense. She said it should be called what it really is: an open relationship. Because the basis is not love but sex. I agree with her.

    There is no question in my mind that the historic sexual repression of women’s desire is a major cause of a lot of the problems. Specifically, the mind-body disconnect that is observed in a lot of women. Women are taught that their private parts are ugly. They are taught that because they bleed, there is something wrong with them. They get these messages at very young ages. Young girls are not encourage to explore their bodies or even learn about their reproductive system. It is sad and wrong. Take a look at this (http://largelabiaproject.org/) and read the comments by women (especially young women) about their vulva.

    What I cannot figure out is just why throughout history have men sought to limit female sexuality. This is my next research area. I think it might have to do with women being hypergamous thousands of years ago. Remember you had harems, concubines, and powerful/rich men hundreds of wives. Perhaps men fear a repeat? I think these is certainly a possibility Iben.

    Hopefully this is clearer for you now!

    Cheers!

  59. Hi Jules
    The reasons why women initiate divorce more often than men is not because they have lost sexual interest in their husbands.

    Now I look forward to learn about your new project.
    If you can understand why so many cultures suppresses women’s sexuality then I will be impressed .
    If you want to dominate,controle and exploit others, then to supress and control their sexuality is highly effective. It is emotional castration, inhibits their life force and fighting spirit.
    Why do you think we punish men by putting them into a building and deny them daily intimate contact with their wife and girlfriend? Western society could have come up with all sorts of other punishments,but choose this one.

    Here we are around ten hours ahead of California and Nevada…

  60. @Jules re: harems… I think the rich men had harems because they were rich, not because they were sexy; so in fact if women are more financially independent and if the division between rich and poor were not so wide, you wouldn’t get harems, or certainly not harems congregating around the same types of males as they did then. Weren’t these harems precisely in eras when female sexuality was limited? If I was to come up with ancient societies where female sexuality wasn’t limited I might say the celts, in which lack of sexual satisfaction was reasonable grounds for a woman to demand a divorce. Not a society associated with harems. The societies associated with harems include the middle east. Don’t think any comment is necessary there. Doesn’t look like there’s a correlation between harems for a wealthy minority and unbridled female sexuality. I may even be so bold as to suggest that it looks like there’s an inverse correlation.

  61. @Joseph…

    You make some reasonable and valid points.

    Question: If a man has, at any given time say 5-10 women he has casual sex with, is this a “fluid” harem? Fluid in the sense the women are changing over time. Btw, the women all know he has other women he is having sex with. They accept this and are OK with it. Does this constitute a harem? or mini harem?

    Here is another question I will be researching: Just why would a woman WANT to be part of a harem? I fully understand and respect religious based polygamy. This is not a harem because the prime motivation is not sex. It is to build a family based on specific religious beliefs.

  62. @Anna…

    I tried everything. And I mean everything.

    She refused to seek counseling. She said she loved me. She even told me she enjoyed making love to me. It was totally dishonest Anna.

    When I filed for divorce, she was shocked. But, I am sure she had to see it coming. There was no sex at all the last two years prior to my filing for legal separation. None. I did not cheat even though I had many many opportunities. I cannot commit adultery.

    She did not have any medical problems. That I know. She only wanted sex once a month, right after her period was over and always in the same position, spooning. Never asked what I wanted. When I just did other positions, she clearly did not enjoy it. So, it was a turn off to me. She always had her monthly orgasm. She was definitely conservative in bed. No problem. I knew this before hand.

    I did not marry her just for sex. She is a good person and the mother of our son. She is a good mom to our 16 year old son. We have a cordial relationship. He stays with me mostly, but goes back and forth. He likes to say he is going to inherit two houses when we die. Lol!

  63. @Iben….

    Hello!

    You write,

    “The reasons why women initiate divorce more often than men is not because they have lost sexual interest in their husbands.”

    Correct. You and I can agree here.

    There are several reasons. I think #1 is they fall “out of love” or become bored with him. Also, many middle aged women have made great personal sacrifices. They now want to live for themselves. Many do have husbands that think of them as maids….So, it’s an assortment of reasons Iben. You are right.

  64. Womens desire wanes naturally after childern for obvious and evolutionary means, progesterone is replaced by oxytocin in order to bond and nurture their off spring. The one thing I can agree to is yes, biologically speaking women are more prone to seek other male suitors for sex, not because they want more lovers, but their drive to reproduce snd diversify the gene pool. Sex for men is to feel good and yes even dominate, sex drive for women during the reproductive years is hormonally driven for reproduction. Long term marriage/relationships are a modern phenomenon, we live so long now. Sex drive and desire is tied to hormones more than we would like to acknowledge, not as much about a “partner” or “love” as we would like to believe. So blame mother nature and biology, instead of each other..
    And, no two men or women are exactly alike, desire is fluid.

  65. I definitely think our cultural baggage that dictates men pursue women gets to the heart of this problem. There are a lot of great guys out there who ARE attractive enough to have a girlfriend, (far more than 25% of men) but if they are too shy to approach women or appear too awkward or desperate, they won’t get them. Good looking people tend to be more confident, our culture rewards them with more attention. It’s easier for mediocre looking women to get a BF as long as men will hit on her (although the pool of men hitting on her will be smaller than that of a very attractive women, as long as she occasionally gets hit on by a guy she likes, she can get a BF). Whereas for a mediocre looking guy, if he doesn’t pursue, is likely to be alone, because most women don’t pursue much.
    As an older woman going back to Uni, I’ve befriended a lot of young college girls. Many times, when they are complaining that the guys who hit on them aren’t their type, I keep telling them “Guess what? You don’t have to wait for them to hit on you! You can approach the ones you like. You can make the first move too!” and their reaction is that they always feel like a guy who doesn’t approach them isn’t interested. They assume that any guy who’s interested/attracted to them will do something about it, therefore they shouldn’t hit on guys who don’t because they’ll be rejected.
    We really need to get rid of these entrenched ways of thinking. I know lots of women who like quieter, more shy guys, but some of them don’t go out and get them. I do have one friend who really likes shy geeky types, and she gets so many men because she just goes out and makes the moves herself, and they are so relieved to have the pressure off of them. There is also this fear amongst women that a lot of men don’t LIKE women who make moves, that they’ll find it too forward or think she’s slutty. Although most men I personally know say they’d love it if women approached them, I have seen plenty writing online say they don’t like it, that they feel like more of a man if they start things.
    As a bisexual woman, my heart goes out to all the men struggling to pick up girls. I know how intimidating it can be to take the risk. I wish men and women both approached each other as often so all the pressure wasn’t on one side. Even with women who like women I’ve noticed that the more feminine tend to approach less, my theory is they are so used to being hit on by men that they have gotten used to being passive about it.

    I definitely think our cultural baggage that dictates men pursue women gets to the heart of this problem. There are a lot of great guys out there who ARE attractive enough to have a girlfriend, (far more than 25% of men) but if they are too shy to approach women or appear too awkward or desperate, they won’t get them. Good looking people tend to be more confident, our culture rewards them with more attention. It’s easier for mediocre looking women to get a BF as long as men will hit on her (although the pool of men hitting on her will be smaller than that of a very attractive women, as long as she occasionally gets hit on by a guy she likes, she can get a BF).

  66. @aly…

    “The one thing I can agree to is yes, biologically speaking women are more prone to seek other male suitors for sex, not because they want more lovers, but their drive to reproduce and diversify the gene pool. Sex for men is to feel good and yes even dominate, sex drive for women during the reproductive years is hormonal driven for reproduction.”

    How can you say this when the birth rate is declining in most Western countries? If what you say was in fact true, the average woman would have 4-5 kids over a lifetime. Birth rates are dropping in all Western nations. If you remove the immigrant women from the picture (or minority/ethnic women in America) , you can see how dramatic this really has become.

    Yes, women seek out more lovers, but it has nothing to do with the desire for reproduction. Why? Clearly, they (women) are not reproducing! Hormones, I believe, are a huge factor in women’s sexual behavior. Since, in America, we spend hardly anything on research on female sexuality, the hormonal impact is poorly understood.

    Yes, no two women are the same. Sex is fluid. Desire is fluid. Hormones are fluid. Everything is fluid! This is what I believe is the driver of why women want sex from so many different men. There are studies that show women desire different types of men for sex depending on the phase of their cycle.
    For example, during ovulation she is likely to want a man with the best genes or an “alpha’ man while when she is not ovulating her desire is for a “beta” type guy…

    This is why, in my opinion, women have sex with some of the most icky men. It also explains why women have far more sex partners than men.

  67. Hi Jules

    Do you mind if I join the discussion?
    Can you share with us the scientific studies that prove what you say here,about women having far more sex partners than men.
    As far as I know do we have around the same number. If we talk median. And of course some have none and some have hundreds. But the median is what is interesting not the extreme cases.

    And how do you Jules know so well who women sleep with?
    The only thing you know for a fact is who YOU have slept with ,period. The rest is based on guessing and rumors.

    Somehow I feel you let your inner emotional pictures of women make you biased, or unable to see the truth.
    Is this a jealousy problem you have?

    Come up with some solid good research Jules that support your idea that women have more sex partners than men.
    Maybe you are right,but what studies do you base this knowledge on?
    Is this American women?

    I do not know the facts,but you insult women the way you speak about us when you say we all sleep with icky men,and live our lives like stupid socio biologist like to believe.
    Take time and read this article Jules.
    It is not about women or sex,but show how we often accept theories not based on solid reseach.

    http://www.madinamerica.com/2013/07/does-nimh-follow-the-rules-of-science-a-o-study-2/

  68. Hi Jules
    This link is a bit confusing. You have to choose the article .
    The article I mention is :”Does NIMH Follow the Rules of Science? A Startling Study:”

  69. @Iben..

    Hello!

    “I do not know the facts,but you insult women the way you speak about us when you say we all sleep with icky men,and live our lives like stupid socio biologist like to believe.”

    I do not mean all women Iben. A lot of women do it is what I mean. All people rarely do the same things, if ever.

    We all as humans have our biases. But, I sought to do reading and research to get to the “truth.”

    I did not mean to insult women with what I wrote. I do have an acerbic style of writing about certain topics. Especially issues and topics that are dear to me. Sorry if I offended you or other women. It is not my attempt to offend. Rather, to challenge the behavior and thinking of many (not all) women.

    Give me a day or so and I will get you the scientific proof of my claims. One of the them is mentioned in Bergner’s book; the one about #s of sexual partners.

  70. @Iben…

    I read the article by Mcllean(sp?). Why is it relevant for this discussion? Are you asserting that my views are based on “something that does not exist?”

  71. Hi Jules,no not your views but maybe all the talk that say women are only attracted to 25% of all men.
    Maybe also ideas some have about alpha males and how women marry men they are not attracted to.
    I do not believe it.

  72. @Iben…

    Hi Iben!

    “Hi Jules,no not your views but maybe all the talk that say women are only attracted to 25% of all men.”

    Well, here in America I do believe this to be the case. I can restate it with more specificity: Women, in general, find only a few men attractive. While men find most women attractive. I am talking about attractive enough for dating and sex. I am referring to women under 40 years of age.

    See this New York Times piece,

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/07/fashion/07campus.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

    Note that these young women immediately tossed 60% of the guys! So, this is what I am talking about.

  73. Hi Jules
    Here is a few sentences from this article
    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/07/fashion/07campus.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

    ✺”with a student body that is nearly 60 percent female,……
    Jayne Dallas, a senior studying advertising who was seated across the table, grumbled that the population of male undergraduates was even smaller when you looked at it as a dating pool. Out of that 40 percent, there are maybe 20 percent that we would consider, and out of those 20, 10 have girlfriends, so all the girls are fighting over that other 10 percent,” she said.”✺

    This is UNCLEAR journalism Jules.
    The way I read it is that at this college we have 60%women and 40% men.
    Lets say 600 women and 400 men.
    And of those 40% men(400) are only half of them( 25%) seen as attractive 200 men. Of them are 10%taken and 10% are free.
    So 400 men
    200 are seen as attractive sexually.
    100 are taken.
    Free attractive men :100.

    These women do NOT say they are only attracted to 25% of all men at campus. They say they are attracted to 50% of men on campus,but half of them are taken.

    The rest of the article is about the power men have.

    ✺“On college campuses where there are far more women than men, men have all the power to control the intensity of sexual and romantic relationships

    Since college women say they generally want ‘something more’ than just a casual hook-up, women end up losing out.”

    When men have the social power, they create a man’s ideal of relationships,” he said. Translation: more partners, more sex………..

    “A lot of guys know that they can go out and put minimal effort into their appearance and not treat girls to drinks or flatter them, and girls will still flirt with them”✺

    You are unfair to all American women Jules if you use this article as evidence about Americans women’s desire. It is not even good research about college women’s desires.
    We can not conclude from this that American women are attracted to only 25% of all American men.
    And we get no info about what these woken mean by ” attractive”…

  74. Correlation I had a typo

    Hi Jules
    Here is a few sentences from this article
    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/07/fashion/07campus.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

    ✺”with a student body that is nearly 60 percent female,……
    Jayne Dallas, a senior studying advertising who was seated across the table, grumbled that the population of male undergraduates was even smaller when you looked at it as a dating pool. Out of that 40 percent, there are maybe 20 percent that we would consider, and out of those 20, 10 have girlfriends, so all the girls are fighting over that other 10 percent,” she said.”✺

    This is UNCLEAR journalism Jules.
    The way I read it is that at this college we have 60%women and 40% men.
    Lets say 600 women and 400 men.
    And of those 40% men(400) are only half of them( 20%) seen as attractive 200 men. Of them are 10%taken and 10% are free.
    So 400 men
    200 are seen as attractive sexually.
    100 are taken.
    Free attractive men :100.

    These women do NOT say they are only attracted to 25% of all men at campus. They say they are attracted to 50% of men on campus,but half of them are taken.

    The rest of the article is about the power men have.

    ✺“On college campuses where there are far more women than men, men have all the power to control the intensity of sexual and romantic relationships

    Since college women say they generally want ‘something more’ than just a casual hook-up, women end up losing out.”

    When men have the social power, they create a man’s ideal of relationships,” he said. Translation: more partners, more sex………..

    “A lot of guys know that they can go out and put minimal effort into their appearance and not treat girls to drinks or flatter them, and girls will still flirt with them”✺

    You are unfair to all American women Jules if you use this article as evidence about Americans women’s desire. Not all American women are at colleges or uni.
    It is not even good research about college women’s desires.
    We can not conclude from this that American women are attracted to only 25% of all American men.

  75. @Iben….

    Hello!

    No, you are interpreting the data incorrectly.

    Using your 600 women and 400 men, it is saying that only 20% of the men (80 men!) are attractive. the other 320 (80%) are unattractive. But, 10% (40 men) are already taken. So, it leaves only the other 40 men (10%) available for all these young women.

    Iben, let’s focus on the BIG picture. Why toss all these men to start with? That is my point. Why do so many of these young women want the same men?

    Again, I am not being unfair. While this is not scientific at all, it really does mirror the dating life of many college educated women in America.

  76. Hi Jules
    (I am now in day 10 in my new lifestyle project called “lose 20 lbs. “I need to get away from the net …)

    So many times you ask the question why American women like a certain type of men. I do not know what kind of men you imagine women prefer.

    . Look at this video. Is this the kind of men you think white women like?
    Well educated,polite,sincere and healthy looking?
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/video/2013/jul/15/internet-susan-greenfield-david-babbs-video-debate

  77. Hi Jules
    I read the two articles and agree with this statement :”More troubling, however, is the idea that academic and/or professional ambition cannot coexist with romantic and emotionally intimate relationships.”

    I was married while I was at the university and when I read about the hook up culture toady I wonder if women get their needs met at all.
    Recently I read a reseach report about the hook up culture and the women there said they gave blow jobs but received little oral sex themselves. It was mostly anal and blow jobs and the percentage of women that actually enjoyed the sexual( as defined by orgasm) was around 30%.
    But the strangest thing was that these women said all this was not ” sex”. Anal and blowjobs was not called having sex.

    The newspapers tells us this hook up culture also has started at a technical university in my country.

  78. @Iben…

    “Look at this video. Is this the kind of men you think white women like?
    Well educated,polite,sincere and healthy looking?”

    Now you make me laugh Iben. The types of men women, in general, like are men who are confident, intelligent, empathetic, charming……” Just because a man has these qualities does not mean she finds him sexually desirable. With sex, many women prefer well built man they think is good at sex. Little else applies.

    Btw, I like the video. I socialize (talk, conversation) a lot. I think here in America technology has impaired the social and communication skills of people. They would rather text and email instead of enjoying conversation ( be it face to face or otherwise). I talk to lots of different people. My reality is not based solely on the Internet, TV (rarely watch) or movies (rarely watch as well). Though one of my favorite movies is a Scandinavian film called, “A Song for Martin.” I think it is Swedish.

  79. @Iben…

    Hello!

    You wrote,

    “Is this the kind of men you think white women like?”

    I think this is what many of them love,

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lisa-copeland/george-clooney-single_b_3581234.html?utm_hp_ref=fifty&ir=Fifty

    Mr. Nice is for hugs and back rubs….Just laughable.

  80. First think I think about with white skin is sunburn, but living in an EXTREME UV zone where skincancer is rife that is to be expected. I know shitloads of white women who are not well educated, polite, sincere, and plenty who are. But I know of many races with similar varieties of people too.

  81. Hi Jules
    Hmmmm….
    I have never understood that some are so attracted to him,but then I am more attracted to men of color .
    But I guess you mean women like bad boys.
    And yes in certain periods of our life’s ,some of us do.

    Men however are always sensible and never seek passions and wild expeiences do they?
    Are you serious Jules. Do you say men aways spend time with women that are good for them?
    No chasing after models,no chasing after the most beautiful and exiting ones?
    Men never get seduced,and never marry women that make life a hell for them?
    Do you honestly mean say men never fall in love with women with dependency problems and other sorts of problems that also can make them behave like bad girls? Beautiful Whitney….
    And they never marry narsiccistc or psychopathic women? Or histrionic women?

  82. Men however are always sensible and never seek passions and wild experiences do they?
    Are you serious Jules. Do you say men always spend time with women that are good for them?
    No chasing after models,no chasing after the most beautiful and exiting ones?
    Men never get seduced,and never marry women that make life a hell for them?

    In their wild carefree days, when men are looking for fun and flings and wild experiences, their beauty requirements of women are actually lower, than when they are looking for LTR and marriage

    Time and again men have said that they are less picky about looks when they want casual affairs and flings. Even good looking popular guys will have flings with regular looking low profile girls ( I see it everywhere, in college,

    workplace, bar scene etc) The evidence is that you’ll come across many avg looking, fat women lamenting how a good looking player only had sex with them but didn’t want a relationship.

    Women have a different idea of ‘fun’ . For them ‘fun’ is something that is only done with top quality men – the best looking, the most exciting and popular men

    This effectively means that fun, carefree days and wild experiences are only for women and attractive men.

    There are nuances that you always disregard, Iben.

    The men chase after models and narcissistic women who are not good for them, but intend to have fun with them, but meaningful relationships. (Those men are stupid and should know their worth IMO)
    For fun we don’t require models. Even avg looking girls can give us plenty of ‘fun’

  83. @Iben…

    Hello!

    “Men however are always sensible and never seek passions and wild experiences do they?
    Are you serious Jules. Do you say men always spend time with women that are good for them?
    No chasing after models,no chasing after the most beautiful and exiting ones?”

    Yes, men (including myself) do seek passionate and wild experiences with women. However, few men can get models and very beautiful women. Those women have a line of men who want them. Yet, only a few men can have them. It’s a waste of time, in my opinion, to chase after such women.

    Yes, men do get seduced and manipulated into bad marriages and relationships Iben. It is quite easy for men to fall prey to such women.

    I am a decent looking man, successful, dress well, intelligent, sometimes drive my Maserati. There are so many women who give me seductive looks just because of that damn car and their belief I am a rich guy. They don’t give a shit about me as a person Iben. They just want to live the high life off me. Too hell with that crap. I want a woman, like my girlfriend, who likes me for the man I am. Who respects me for who I am as a person. She does not expect me to take her out 3-4 times a week, even though I have the means. She does not want Jimmy Choo, Prada……even though I have bought this for some women in the past. She is authentic and not a seducer.

  84. Hi Tim

    Honestly Tim,I do not think it is like that all over the world .
    I am sorry this is your experience but I have never heard the same story told by my male friends, family and never read about his as an issue in the newspaper.
    Teenage boys here mature later than girls,and have less sexual partners. But that LOTS men in their twenties can not have some fun is new to me,and I think this must be the American story but no the Scandinavian story or the European story.
    This is your experience and I will not invalidate your experience but still do not say all women in this worlds are stupid and shallow because that is not true. You should travel Tim . There is a life also outside USA with friendly women.

  85. Hi Jules
    I hope your relationship will last into eternity Jules, even if you say you know the you have the ax hanging over you. She is a good woman and obviously interesting.

    Do you have a strategy for what to do if serious problems arise that can lead to a break ?

  86. Dina Strange says:

    Do you feel that u have some childhood issues that were unsolved?

  87. @iben…

    Hello!

    Strategy? I chuckle.

    My strategy is what most men do: suck it up. What else can a man really do Iben?

    Find another woman. Repeat the process I suppose.

    As you can see, I have become very very cynical about a lot of women, dating, relationships, etc. I can only control what I CAN control.

    I am not in the business of trying to control women, being jealous, or possessive. If she gets tired of me, just let me know. I have already told her this.

  88. Hi Iben, I like the way you argue, having lived in Denmark most of my life (now Madrid), but also 1 year as a high school student in Iowa and 1 year working in San Diego, I definitely think there are cultural differences due to the higher level of consumerism, materialism (or shallowness) in the US.

Trackbacks

  1. […] “The Danger in Demonizing Male Sexuality” by Alyssa Royse (Sex and Culture, Gender Socialization) […]

  2. […] spaces like The Good Men Project, and they’ve posted, in my opinion, some interesting and thought-provoking things as well. I get my conversations about ethical masculinity, as well as a million other […]

  3. […] I really don’t care what anyone does behind closed doors so long as it only involves consenting adults. Humans are sexual animals. And don’t believe the hype: our culture does not just stop with women. Female sexuality pisses people off; male sexuality is demonized. […]

  4. […] wild, sexual animals. And when the culture around us works to make that argument again and again, demonizing our sexuality saying that women must always say no to us, that we all think with the ‘wrong head,’ and that […]

  5. […] The Danger in Demonizing Male Sexuality, by Alyssa Royse discusses how the current “predator/prey” model of sexual relationships is harmful to both men and women alike. […]

  6. […] caught a random Tweet commending a blog post by @AlyssaRoyse entitled The Dangers of Demonizing Male Sexuality. This resonated with me not from personal experience but rather because a woman I am ‘social […]

  7. […] Alyssa Royse offers another perspective. She believes the unfortunate cause is society’s habit of demonizing male sexuality. “It starts young,” she writes. “Girls are told that boys are predatory and somehow out of control. The corollary there is that boys are told they are predators, and out of control. Therefore, not a desirable thing, but a thing to defend against. From the get-go, we are teaching our kids to fear male sexuality, and to repress female sexuality… It’s sad. It’s insulting. And it’s damaging…This way of looking at male sexuality conflates sexuality with predation.” […]

  8. […] Alyssa Royse offers another perspective. She believes the unfortunate cause is society’s habit of demonizing male sexuality: […]

  9. […] kind of complex and requires that we get into all sorts of conversations – nice guy syndrome, demonizing male sexuality, the continuing evolution of feminism, etc. But there’s plenty of time for that and we […]

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