The Danger in Demonizing Male Sexuality

male sexuality

Alyssa Royse explains how our current predator/prey model of sexual relationships is harmful to both men and women.

—-

Jamie Peck over at The Gloss, wrote a great little piece asking a great big question: Can Men Write About Sex Without Sounding Like Douchebags?  In asking, however, she wasn’t pointing at men and suggesting they are douchebags so much as she was pointing at all of us and suggesting that we have a tendency to demonize male sexuality. She rightly points out that most of the men who achieve any sort of status and acceptability in writing about sex are somewhere on the gender queer spectrum. Sure, James Deen has a successful blog, but if you read most of the comments on it, there’s this weird anger at him for being a porn star, and enjoying it and writing about it. It is couched in the assumption that he is just doing what every guy in the world would fantasize about doing, because, you know, the only thing straight guys want to do is pound as much pussy as possible.

Puzzling.

I was trying to wrap my head around why that was, and unable to come up with anything really to contradict it, when the incredibly brilliant Sabrina Morgan left the following comment on Facebook:

Cis men are also in the position of the cultural desirer, never the desired; many genuinely believe that since “no one” finds them sexy/since their sexuality is considered threatening, no one wants to hear what they have to say about sex.

God, that woman is brilliant. And she’s right. It is at least possible that women love the likes of Dan Savage because he is in no way threatening to us. I could be drunk, dirty-dancing on his lap and he’d be all like, “bitch, please, put that shit away.” I like to think he’d also give me warm milk and tuck me in, but who knows. The point is, he is no threat to me.

But more than that, he is an ally. He has, time and time again, stood up for the rights of women  to have full agency and autonomy over our bodies, spoken out against rape culture, and generally paved the way for an open dialog about human sexuality and our right to it. (Yes, I know there are many people who have serious bones to pick with him, he is not perfect, but on the whole, he is an example of a man who can write about sex without being called a douchebag for doing so.) Charlie Glickman can write about sex and sexuality without being called a douchebag, but he is also widely considered queer, and not a threat to anyone.

But to Sabrina’s point, what of the cisgender men? Specifically, heterosexual cis men? How we read their words has so much to do with what we, as a society, assume about their sexuality and how it manifests. Society seems to have set heterosexuality up as a thing that involves men pursuing, and women either accepting or rejecting—mostly rejecting.

This starts young. I live in Seattle, which is, by any standard, a very progressive city. Many of us do a mommy / daughter sex-ed class at Seattle Children’s Hospital as our daughters get close to starting menstruation. In the session of the class that is less about biology and more about navigating sexuality, the presenter offered the idea that girls would have to start learning how to say “no” to boys who were going to want to touch them sexually.

I looked at my daughter, who sort of rolled her eyes at me. And the woman went on, listing the many ways that girls could rebuff boys. I looked at my daughter again, and she said, “go ahead mom.” And I did. I raised my hand and said, “Can we also talk about how to teach girls to say ‘yes’ to sexuality. Can we teach them that sex is about pleasure for all parties involved, and that learning how to identify and say ‘yes’ to things that give them pleasure is how they learn to draw their boundaries and say ‘no’ to things that don’t.”

She replied that surely I could understand that protecting girls from boys was more important. I told her that I surely did not see it that way.

But it starts that young. Yes, girls are told that boys are predatory and somehow out of control. The corollary there is that boys are told they are predators, and out of control. Therefore, not a desirable thing, but a thing to defend against. From the get-go, we are teaching our kids to fear male sexuality, and to repress female sexuality.

As they age, and their media exposure extends beyond the protective (and crappy) bubble of children’s programming, we see example after example of men having to pull huge gestures to lure women into sex, or catch them, or trick them. Just off the top of my head: In Superbad when one of the guys talks about getting girls drunk enough that they can be “that mistake;” in Spiderman when he shoots a web to catch the girl who said “no” half a dozen times, pulling her in for an epic kiss that leaves them both breathless; in Anchorman when the guy uses a cologne made with “bits of real panther” that “60% of the time works every time” to get the girl. I could go on and on, but that point is that popular culture sets up this idea that men are sexual predators who need to resort to trickery and cologne to fulfill their one and only mission, which is sticking their penis in a girl.

It’s sad. It’s insulting. And it’s damaging.

♦◊♦

This way of looking at male sexuality conflates sexuality with predation. It means that he who posseses sexuality is assumed a predator.

That is obviously damaging to the vast majority of men who simply are not. They want and like sex just as much as the rest of us. However, it’s downright dangerous when you extrapolate that out to situations like the horror of Stubenville. It is this line of thinking that allows people to say, “boys will be boys.” As if this kind of predation is just natural for guys, when in fact it is not normal for guys to be predators. Most men are not predators.

Steubenville, and the way-too-many incidents like it, are not examples of natural male sexuality. There are examples of a violent rape culture than perpetuates the idea that predation is the natural manifestation of sex.

So with this in our mind’s eye, no, it is not possible for us to believe that heterosexual cis men can write about sex without being douchebags.  And that breaks my heart.  It breaks my heart as someone who loves men, in a whole lot of ways.

You do not need to trick us into sex, in fact, you shouldn’t. And you don’t need a cologne with bits of real panther to attract us. In fact, lay off the stuff, seriously. A little dab’ll do ya.

♦◊♦

So, how can we all work together to change our collective impression of male sexuality as something that is dangerous and disgusting? Besides the obvious—understanding male privilege, dismantling of patriarchal mythology and ending rape culture? Those issues are far too big for me to take on here, but without accomplishing those three, nothing changes. So while we work toward those goals, here are some steps to take along that path:

1. Be an ally. Help us stop the violence against women. I am assuming that none of you would do what happened in Stubenville, but would you have helped stop it? Have you been vocal about how wrong it was? About how that should not represent you or your sexuality?  From a societal perspective, we need your help. From a personal perspective, when we feel safe, we let our guards down, and that’s the first step to an intimate connection.

2. Ask women what they want, and listen to what they tell you. We are all different; we all want different things from the men in our life. Rather than getting lost in a frustrated guessing game, ask us. Listen to our answers. Tell us what you want, with words, and listen to our responses. Whether it’s sex or any other relationship, the best way to not be seen as predatory is to not act like a predator. And that means communication, not acquisition. Which, by the way, is also called consent. “Yes” is the safest word of all.

3. Let us in, don’t lure us in. Lay off the cologne, the pick-up lines, and the games. Please. Trust that you do not need to trick people into wanting you. Trust that you are worthy, just as you are. And that you deserve someone who wants you for who you actually are, how you actually are.

4. Don’t take it personally. Your self worth is in no way connected to whether or not some girl (or guy) wants you. I am constantly telling people to “Consider Cilantro.” (Seriously, I need that on a t-shirt.) Some people love cilantro. Some people think that cilantro tastes like tinfoil soaked in dish soap. That in no way reflects on the worthiness of  cilantro. And cilantro never takes it personally. If you can, don’t even think of it as rejection, you are just cilantro sometimes. After all, you’re not attracted to every person you meet, why would every person you meet be attracted to you?

5. And lastly,know that your body is beautiful. I, like most females, was warned that penises and balls and anuses were gross. I was told to hold my nose, close my eyes, get it over with. Imagine my disappointment when I saw my first penis and there were no festering boils hissing my name, no sulfurous clouds wafting up from a menacing member.  I thought it was kind of cute. As I learned more about them, I grew to love them, in and out. Hell, there are times when I was sure I heard angels giving hummers on high when I’ve see one. Most of us straight chicks really like your bodies. You don’t need to trick us into liking them. That is what makes us straight, after all.

However, they are not lures, and we are not fish. Do not, ever, show them to us unless we ask for it. The bonus for you is that when we ask for it, it’s because we want it, so you aren’t really risking rejection at that point, Mr. Cilantro.

♦◊♦

I am sorry that generations of lazy storytelling and bad media have perpetuated the myths of men as predators and women as victims. Or the idea that women’s purity is what can redeem the nastiness of male sexuality. It is wrong for both men and women alike.

But the only way we’re going to change it is together, and it’s gonna take time. We need to all be better. Oh, hey, I know, we need to come together—if we want to, that is. You can also come alone. Or with someone else. Aint’ no skin off my back, as long as it’s all consensual. And, hopefully, pleasurable.
Join the Conversation Sign up for daily or weekly email

Photo: Flickr/ robnas

About Alyssa Royse

Alyssa is freelance writer, speaker, fitness trainer and personal coach living in Seattle with her husband and their 3 daughters. They own Rocket CrossFit where she spends most of her time training men and women in ways that are as much emotional as physical. She can also be found on her eponymous blog, where she pontificates about food, family, politics and the Seattle rain. Yes, she would love to speak at your event, host a workshop or write something for you. Just ask.

Comments

  1. This article is a few years old and nothing changes. It even seems more male behaviour is called ‘harassment’, men on campuses are considered more suspect than ever, we’ve had the totally preposterous ‘Shirtgate’, women being angry because a man had attractive women on his shirt. The words ‘objectifying’ and ‘male gaze’, simply meaning a man finds a woman sexually attractive, aren’t banned from the feminist lingo or even under discussion. Dialogue between men (and not just ‘good men’, or rather, more men are good than you may suppose) and women is more necessary than ever. Still thanks for the article, especially the beginning is brilliant.

  2. The article starts brilliantly but ends, in my eyes, a bit strange: if men don’t want their sexuality demonized they can prevent it by 1. act like feminist angels and 2. feel better about themselves. I don’t think it works that way, and I think it’s principally wrong to put it that way. Advice like ‘ask women what they want’ – but before or after you admitted you want sex? If they demonize you, it won’t change a thing, however well-meant and right this advice is. ‘Don’t lure us in’- easily said, but if a woman doesn’t want sex, and may even be a bit insulted, because you’re not ‘romantic’ (what you would call luring) enough, that doesn’t feel like a solution. I’m even afraid the more ’emancipated’ a man behaves, the more disappointed some women will be if he turns out to be able to be horny too. As some people here point out, being rejected is not a big deal, not having sex for months or even years IS. And I am NOT a feminist angel and want the right to disagree with (some) feminists sometimes.
    And I think it’s principally wrong to ask men to change this demonizing. Women have the power here, they can correct other women generalizing about male sexuality, especially the ones who think that ‘feminist’, and point out to them that it’s actually very traditional stereotyping. But as I said, the article starts brilliantly and thank you for that.

  3. Sex is just our biology trying to trick us into having babies. The best thing one can do is become asexual and prioritize on more important things such a causing infertility and human extinction on a mass scale.

  4. Here is my question about this.

    A few weeks ago I signed up for a self defense course that I will be taking on June 27th because it is, sadly, considered my job to “not get raped”…rather than a man’s job not to rape. If it is even suggested teaching consent…”OMG #notallmenz0r!!” I should stay home, not drink, not wear this, don’t wear that, don’t be out after dark, carry a gun or taser, watch your drink, wear this drug detecting nail polish, take a self defense course etc. because I need to be careful to make sure I do not allow myself to be raped.

    This is despite the fact that an overwhelming amount of rapes and committed by men, the movies and TV shows that are made that show men as sexually dominant and women are sexually submissive are overwhelming made by men, the flasher in the park/subway, the pervert rubbing themselves on you, overwhelmingly likely this person will be a male, a minor has been violently molested…not only is it more likely that the person who violated them will be male, but the judge who will let them off easy will be male (google M. Marc Kelly)….

    ….but…despite this…it’s still my job to remember not to demonize men and their sexuality. Do men hold any responsibility for their actions or sexuality? Or is it just my job to remember to spend most of my day avoiding violence from men but then remember I’m still supposed to love and support them and their sexuality? Just want to make sure I know my place as a woman in society….ya know…because we cannot have the men being inconvenienced.

    (Let’s see how many times this can be refuted without #notallmen)

    • Timothy Pios says:

      I believe the core of the article is about communication. You should hold people responsible for their actions, absolutely-but you should not generalize. To say all men are sadistic pigs bent on raping ever woman around them is just as wrong as saying all women are property existing only to fulfill the needs of the their male overlords. It is everyone’s job-regardless of gender-not to demonize sexuality period. You should love and support the entire spectrum of gender and not take sides. The inconvenience that will occur is not to the men abusing the world, but it will inconvenience the men who want to change that system, but are being told that they are dirty rapists deserving nothing loathing, disgust, and distrust. Who–of any gender–is going to put a helping hand out if it only is going to be slapped away?

  5. I really appreciated this article. I think it was a huge risk to say some of the things that were said. I think it’s an enlightened perspectives and something that I’ve had trouble articulating to the women in my life; that men’s sexuality, by default, is considered a shameful thing. A lot of the responses I’ve heard are tantamount to, “Women’s sexuality is shamed also!” which I can see but A) it’s a very different kind of shame, and B) that’s not empathy that’s a justification (one step away from “you deserve it.”)

    I do however want to point out that the article directs nearly all of it’s “solutions” at men. As if we’re the ones who are doing the demonizing. It’s an easy mistake to make but I think it should be apparent to anyone reading this that it’s not ONLY the job of men to fix this problem. Certainly, men are acting on their sexuality because it’s in their nature. How their behavior is perceived is the responsibility of the one doing the perceiving. Of course, if someone is doing something harmful, that is their responsibility. But talking about Stubenville, listening to what women want, being vulnerable, not taking rejection personally, and being self-accepting, are not how the population at large stops seeing men’s sexuality as shameful and evil. I believe, it starts when both men and women are empathetic to each other. In this case, particularly, women being understanding and accepting of men’s sexuality. We all HAVE to accept each other’s sexuality at some level. Whether we’re willing to see the good in each other behind our sexuality is what’s at stake.

  6. “Cis men are also in the position of the cultural desirer, never the desired; many genuinely believe that since “no one” finds them sexy/since their sexuality is considered threatening, no one wants to hear what they have to say about sex”

    Sorry but surely women are aware that men can be desired for their looks & for sex, tell that to James Dean, Young Elvis, John Stamos, or any man with a ripped body. I could even use my close friend as an example, he isn’t much of a talker or personality, but because of how good looking he is he, women approach him & tell him how hot he is. Not to mention that many sexually frustrated women masterbate over men, which is surely the clearest indication of all that men can be sexually desired by women. I mean, if women didn’t sexually desire men then no woman would want to have sex right?

    I mean she’s kind of on the right track, but her explanation is wrong. In fact, I think she is displaying what I’m about to talk about it, she is keeping all the bargaining power in the women’s corner by suggesting men aren’t sexually desired.

    The reason men’s sexuality is found threatening. Wait for it…. This may come as a shock…. Is because women are the gatekeepers of sex & men can’t have sex without a woman’s permission, & this dynamic transfers over to talking about sex.

    Women talk openly about intimate physical details of men, such as penis size, or how good he was, & are actually quite disrespectful towards men regarding sex talk. They see it as their god given right as the gatekeepers, they “own the sexual property” if you will.

    Whereas, a man will rarely talk about intimate physical details of women, & if any woman dare finds out, all hell breaks loose. He is “using the sexual property without the owners permission”.

    See how it works?

    Men talking about sex mirrors rape, lacking permission. While vice versa, the physical act dynamic suggests that women can’t rape men, that women can’t be sexually intrusive towards men.

    There’s a reason why it’s only women who demonize male sexuality, it’s a threat to their source of power, to their property, & all women see it as offensive.

  7. “Cis men are also in the position of the cultural desirer, never the desired; many genuinely believe that since “no one” finds them sexy/since their sexuality is considered threatening, no one wants to hear what they have to say about sex”

    Sorry but this is a typically narcissistic answer from a woman. Surely women know that men can be desired for their looks & for sex, tell that to James Dean, Young Elvis, John Stamos, or any man with a ripped body. I could even use my close friend as an example, he isn’t much of a talker or personality, but because of how good looking he is, women approach him & tell him how hot he is. Not to mention that many single, sexually frustrated women masterbate over men, which is surely the clearest indication of all that men can be sexually desired by women. I mean, if women didn’t sexually desire men then no woman would want to have sex right?

    I mean she’s kind of on the right track, but her explanation is wrong.

    The reason men’s sexuality is found threatening. Wait for it…. This may come as a shock…. Is because women are the gatekeepers of sex & men can’t have sex without a woman’s permission, & this dynamic transfers over to talking about sex.

    Women talk openly about intimate physical details of men, such as penis size, & are actually quite disrespectful towards men regarding sex talk. They see it as their god given right as the gatekeepers, they “own the sexual property” if you will.

    Whereas, a man will rarely talk about intimate physical details of women, & if any woman dare finds out, all hell breaks loose. He is “using the sexual property without the owners permission”.

    See how it works?

    Men talking about sex mirrors rape, lacking a woman’s permission. While vice versa, the physical act dynamic suggests that women can’t rape men, that women can’t be sexually intrusive towards men.

    There’s a reason why it’s only women who demonize male sexuality, it’s a threat to their source of power, to their property.

  8. Alyssa: thank you for writing this piece. As a society we definitely need to talk more about this issue and you’ve done an amazing job with it. Just one question that is sort of nitpicky but sort of not because the subject matter is huge: what do you refer to when you say “patriarchal mythology”? That was one thing that really confused me about the article. Otherwise, thanks a lot for breaching this subject matter in such an approachable way.

  9. I want to like this, but in the end what I mostly got was:

    “Many of us (predominantly women) are guilty of demonizing men’s sexuality.
    So…guys, here’s what YOU can do about it.”

    Perhaps the onus of change ought to start with the people espousing flawed social gender notions (many of which you, the author, are still noticeably guilty of while trying to combat this particular one)?

  10. Baldur Dasche says:

    When you have a pair of egos involved in any human interaction there is a very high likelihood something is going to go wrong. And so it goes with the sex game.

    I describe it thus because in so many ways in western society it is described and contextualized by both boys and girls as as a game with winners, losers and lots of scoring in between. I say boys and girls because like so much else related to sexuality we’re fixated at an almost infantile level of pleasure-seeking and hedonism. No wonder the ‘pursuit’ of the opposite sex has become a hunt for unhappiness and for so many largely a source of failure.

    We should, both genders, grow up.

  11. Thank you for writing this. Being a European-born American, I have experienced a very warped view of masculinity that permeated HS and college: a boy who is interested in a girl but takes no action is called a a “pervert”, the one that takes action is called a “rapist”, one that wants to wait with sex until married is called a “pussy”, and one that rejects a girl wanting sex is called a “queer”. True – but really a sad – story. This does not occur in a vaccum and there are consequences – what I wholeheartedly agree with in your article is this: we all can be either part of the problem or part of the solution. Demonizing and punishing innocent will only make turn into offenders. Modeling, expecting, and rewarding healthy relationships and sexuality is what is needed – from both sexes, not just from one expecting the other. For each man or woman that fights against injustice, sexual traffic, rape, and promiscuity, there is one that will engage in such behavior – either our of own wounds, desire for control, power, influence, status, or simply because they had not seen a healthy relationship.

  12. Great article. It inspired me to write some thoughts / responses on *why* men act this way (from a straight middle-aged U.S. male): http://helmingstay.tumblr.com/post/104526830342/bro-acting-bro-dressing-sexual-violence-and

  13. This article was a lot better than I thought it would be, however there is one glaring flaw. It says that women have to stop demonizing male sexuality and the perception of “Cis” men. “(…) in the position of the cultural desirer, never the desired; [who] genuinely believe that since “no one” finds them sexy (…)no one wants to hear what they have to say about sex.” But then there is a long list of what men need to do to convince you that they aren’t the predator so they can, what? Enjoy sex with you? That makes no sense. It seems counter intuitive to write an article about how there is a misconception about how men are always the desirer and forced to be seen as a predator, then make a list telling men how to be more desirable to you, and people that share your mindset, when approaching you. It just looks like more pickup rules.

    These rules are all for men, suggesting they modify their behavior to make you, what, feel better while being approached? Yet it states most men are not predators, so the ones you say you admire already do most of this naturally. It’s only the very few pickup aggressive guys you don’t like that need to learn this lesson, and as you say they are a vast minority, right? Shouldn’t, then, the takeaway from this be that women should stop only going for the “desirable” guys that constantly approach them and start more aggressively approaching guys themselves as sexual people looking for a partner, thereby evening the playing field? Or that waiting for the guy to come to you and impress you also comes with the predator stigma?

    Maybe a more effective strategy is that women should make more of an effort to talk to someone they fancy but doesn’t come after them immediately. Be forward and approach the guy sitting and reading a book, lead and dictate the conversation when talking to a man, ask him what he likes, see if you have a connection with him, TELL HIM YOU LIKE HIM, ask him on a date exc…

    “Your self-worth is in no way connected to whether or not some girl (or guy) wants you.” This is exactly opposite to your point, because it predisposes that every man worth having is constantly approaching you, and his self-worth is tied up in if you say yes to his “game.” If you don’t get tied up in what one woman thinks about you, then the only option is to constantly approach as many women as possible to see if any of them stick. That is exactly the predator mentality you suggest is wrong.

    A better point for men would be: find out if you like them first, if they need to be impressed find someone else who likes your personality. Women: Ask men what they want, maybe? Perhaps if lots more women approached men (really approached, not said hi and waited to be impressed) guys wouldn’t have to constantly chase ladies or feel like no one wants them, or feel like they have to be the predator.

    The lesson was good, but it ended up being more rules about how to compassionately hit on women. These rules are literally, 1. Make us feel safe. 2. Ask me what I want, talk to me. 3. Be yourself. 4. This article was a lot better than I thought it would be, however there is one glaring flaw. It says that women have to stop demonizing male sexuality and the perception of “Cis” men. “(…) in the position of the cultural desirer, never the desired; [who] genuinely believe that since “no one” finds them sexy (…)no one wants to hear what they have to say about sex.” But then there is a long list of what men need to do to convince you that they aren’t the predator so they can, what? Enjoy sex with you? That makes no sense. It seems counter intuitive to write an article about how there is a misconception about how men are always the desirer and forced to be seen as a predator, then make a list telling men how to be more desirable to you, and people that share your mindset, when approaching you. It just looks like more pickup rules.

    These rules are all for men, suggesting they modify their behavior to make you, what, feel better while being approached? Yet it states most men are not predators, so the ones you say you admire already do most of this naturally. It’s only the very few pickup aggressive guys you don’t like that need to learn this lesson, and as you say they are a vast minority, right? Shouldn’t, then, the takeaway from this be that women should stop only going for the “desirable” guys that constantly approach them and start more aggressively approaching guys themselves as sexual people looking for a partner, thereby evening the playing field? Or that waiting for the guy to come to you and impress you also comes with the predator stigma?

    Maybe a more effective strategy is that women should make more of an effort to talk to someone they fancy but doesn’t come after them immediately. Be forward and approach the guy sitting and reading a book, lead and dictate the conversation when talking to a man, ask him what he likes, see if you have a connection with him, TELL HIM YOU LIKE HIM, ask him on a date exc…

    “Your self-worth is in no way connected to whether or not some girl (or guy) wants you.” This is exactly opposite to your point, because it predisposes that every man worth having is constantly approaching you, and his self-worth is tied up in if you say yes to his “game.” If you don’t get tied up in what one woman thinks about you, then the only option is to constantly approach as many women as possible to see if any of them stick. That is exactly the predator mentality you suggest is wrong.

    A better point for men would be: find out if you like them first, if they need to be impressed find someone else who likes your personality. Women: Ask men what they want, maybe? Perhaps if lots more women approached men (really approached, not said hi and waited to be impressed) guys wouldn’t have to constantly chase ladies or feel like no one wants them, or feel like they have to be the predator.

    The lesson was good, but it ended up being more rules about how to compassionately hit on women. These rules are literally, 1. Make us feel safe. 2. Ask me what I want, talk to me. 3. Be yourself. 4. Don’t take rejection personally, play the game, fish in the sea. 5. Be confident, confidence is sexy.

    And that is the real sadness of this article. It is a regular, strait male (almost every guy you date is, btw) opinion and realistic view of dating and interaction in these situations that all feminist conversations are missing. You can tell us what you want forever, but if you can’t listen to the vast majority of non-predatory nice guys who would love to be awesome to ladies, you’re only going to get the view of the most aggressive guy that wants you the most, right now. And the only result of that is a vast majority of unhappy unfulfilled regular strait males who really want to be awesome to ladies reading millions of pick up artist books in the hopes of getting laid.

  14. ithinkformyself says:

    See, when women get stereotyped, then it’s ‘sexist.’ ‘misogynistic,’ or ‘rapey,’ but when men get stereotyped by being called ‘predators,’ then it’s somehow, like magic, ok.

    Isn’t that amazing?

    • I think you may have missed the point of the article, which was the exact opposite, saying that stereotyping men as predatory is a massive part of all the issues surrounding sex in society, that it does massive harm to both men and women.

  15. Jon Bonjovi says:

    I hope this article sparks some serious dialogue, especially in light of Cosby/Ghomeshi/Julian Blanc. Those people were fully immersed in their predatory roles, taking them to fully unacceptable extremes. They are ugly symptoms of a societal sickness that we ought to address. The flip-side to male predation is female sexual repression. This dynamic is obviously bad for both sides, and if we really want to address this issue we have to take it on as a whole, rather than attacking one side or the other.

  16. A great article, thank you for starting the discussion on this important issue.

    However, I’m a bit baffled that your solutions and suggestions on how “we need to work TOGETHER” to solve this, are all aimed at men… And precisely zero suggestions to empower women to be part of that solution! Surely the whole point of the article is to dispel the myth that women are poor victims who need to passively wait for men to change their predatory behaviour… And to dispel the myth that all men are wrapped up in rape culture and need to radically change their approach in order to be OK?

  17. Kind of hard when, you know, as a male, I’m apparently a born rapist. And I would love to believe I’m “worthy” when I turned down if favour of the slick-haired, douche mobile, monstrosity, who date rapes, posts the video, and laughs to his friends. If THAT is a better choice than me, what the hell is wrong with me?

    • David Waddell says:

      I think her point was that your value isn’t determined by whether or not you are ‘chosen’ by one woman or the next. And if she chooses the slick-haired date raper that says nothing about you whatsoever.

    • Butt Fugly says:

      if you’re getting passed over for a date-raping douchemobile because he’s “hot,” instead of crying about how women hate nice guys (the rallying cry of every nerd who stays home downloading porn on Saturday nights instead of having a life), invest in a decent haircut that doesn’t look just like the one your mom gave you when you were nine, go to the damn dentist, buy some clothes that don’t include t-shirts with ironic statements or software company logos, hit the gym 3-4 times a week, and get it together!

      If a woman doesn’t want you, it’s because you give her no reason to. And, despite the very interesting article, it *is* a statement on your desirability as a mate. Not having a mate (assuming at least average sex drive, non-confused gender identity, etc. I’m talking about your average guy here, not the topic of enlightened articles on ‘smart’ internet sites) if you want one absolutely IS a statement that you are not desirable.

      At least the douchemobile probably tucks his shirt in before he talks to a woman. Have some dignity. Show some respect, to the woman and yourself.

      Please note: This has nothing to do with female empowerment, of which I am emphatically in favor. What this has to do with is whiny “nice guys” who want to blame rape culture, hair product, or anything but themselves for their inability to have women find them attractive. Or to have someone like our author absolve them of responsibility for their own problems by blaming society (which is screwed up enough without your bullshit problems, thank you very much) or psychology or sociology or really anything other than the dork staring back at them in the mirror.

      It’s your fault, and mine, because I am one of you. But even I am tired of hearing us bitch about it.

  18. Having lived in Europe for a few year and living in various parts of the USA. I am amazed that excepting British or other foreign women in the US. The only women who have initiated sex with me here in the USA …are foreigners. In the UK women were much more forward about what they wanted and I was approached more than once. In the US it has almost never happened even for dates, much less sex and it seems to be getting worse. The model of man as predator/woman as prey/victim is extremely unhealthy for men and women. I also have to say whenever I have had conversations about STDs etc with women and I generally start out with the fact that I think it is important to know ones sexual health meaning my own. They are most reluctant to even approach the subject. The reaction I get seems to be often rooted in the predator/prey guilty/innocent paradigm that says women are pure until some man “gives” them some STD. Of course where did the guy get it…probably some woman. Health is health and being able to talk about it is important. Honest, considerate conversation is a start. Sex should be about breaking down barriers to communication and mutual pleasure. Oh to live in a culture that likes sex again. I miss it.

  19. An honest criticism says:

    I think the author here is on the right track. But I feel she is still relatively at the start of coming to an understanding of shame and how it affects male sexuality. I don’t mean to criticise the effort at all; few people dare to even take the first step down that path – blaming men and treating them like flawed aliens from a different planet is much easier.

    This is also an extremely deep and complex topic, and I am sure it is particularly hard for a woman to understand male sexual shame because you don’t feel it inside of you and have not lived it. I believe most men don’t understand it either, because it is still unconscious in most of us, and we can be rather uniquely talented at emotional repression and untalented at emotional self awareness And men thinking / talking about emotions is a very part of that shame. So I think our ability to draw attention to the problem also tends to be poor.

    We are taught that there is something wrong with us if we are not having sex. That there is something wrong with us if we don’t want to have sex with someone. That if there is tension with someone and it does not end with sex, we are flawed (even if actually we are the ones who don’t want to go ahead, we feel shame for not having done so). We sleep with people we don’t like and don’t find connection with because not doing that means we’re inadequate. We are taught that we are inadequate if we are not promiscuous. We are taught we are inadequate if we say no, that we are flawed if we don’t feel chemistry, comfort or attraction, and that we are insufficient if we can’t make a move in spite of not feeling chemistry, comfort or attraction. Chemistry to many a woman is something that just happens – it is there or it is not. To many a man, chemistry is something he has to create, and he is flawed if he cannot, is unable to, or doesn’t want to.

    We are not shown desire and we are taught we are not desirable. We are taught that our body is disgusting. We are treated like we have no sexual options, like we’re desperate by nature and like we’ll take any scrap of sexuality that could be throw our way. It’s disgusting, and makes us feel disgusted at ourselves. Whenever we try to help or just be friendly, particularly with a stranger, we’re treated like we’re ‘trying’ something, we are treated like predators and looked at in disgust (except if we look hot, then it’s OK except the interaction is sexualised and we get objectified). And when after enough attempts at being friendly and being treated like we’re disgusting we stop trying, we are then blamed because “chivalry is dead”.

    We are taught that our body has no value. That our sexuality has no value. That a woman is doing us a favour if she has sex with us.

    We are taught that we are second class men, that we are inadequate and flawed, if we date a woman who is anything less than extremely beautiful. As if only beauty matters, and the status of a man is determined by the beauty of his woman. Whether she makes us happy is irrelevant. If she is not beautiful, we are flawed and second-rate.

    If we are with a girl and don’t want to “make the move” – say we don’t feel comfortable enough with someone to want to share our sexuality with them – then we are “socially awkward” or a “loser”. Because the idea that maybe, just maybe, you just don’t make us feel comfortable is lost out there. After all, it’s our job to make women feel comfortable and safe. But the idea that men might need to feel comfortable and safe too is shameful. Man up!

    We constantly encounter girls who don’t know how to say yes – the author touches on this – but she does not explore the consequences. Have you ever been with someone who you want to sleep with, and who you can tell beyond doubt *wants* to sleep with you, but who is bound by shame, who thinks that if they allow themselves to do what they want, they will be judged. Worse, someone who will judge themselves as being a ‘slut’ if they say yes? Who will tear themselves up the following morning? This is a dynamic in women we have to deal with *all the time*. And do you know what happens to work in that context? Predatory behaviour. You see, if a woman wants to sleep with you, and she can justify to herself that you ‘made it happen’, ‘were persistent enough’, ‘tried hard enough’, tricked her’, that she only came up to ‘see your new painting’, or ‘hear your new album’, that it ‘happened naturally’, as if ‘by magic’, if she ‘was drunk’ – if she somehow was tricked or not in control, or otherwise entirely uninvolved in the decision to have sex with you, then it’s not her fault that she had sex and so she’s not a slut. And she did what she wanted to do anyway, without the shame. If you’re a guy, your experience of having sex with women is not only about mutual attraction, connection and honesty. Love it or hate it, half the story as we experience it is about navigating women’s inner shame. Predatory behaviour, in this sense, can be adaptive, for as long as women continue to be shamed. It gives women an excuse to escape their own shame.

    It takes some years and confidence and piles self-awareness to decide that you’re just not going to deal with women like that any more – you can make that your boundary. But that takes something and undoing the piles of the inner shame on the lines I describe above. Then we limit ourselves to women who are authentic and self-aware and who don’t need the deception because they know how to say yes. It’s possible, but a long road there.

    The author also entirely misses this dynamic when she says “ask women what they want, and listen to what they tell you.” Most women will *not* tell you what they want. There is too much shame there either way. They could be uninterested, but afraid to turn you down because they fear losing you as a friend or being disliked, or because their ego needs male attention even though they are uninterested. They could be interested, but turn you down because they feel a need to play hard to get or don’t want to appear easy or slutty. It’s a bloody shame-fest out there and ‘listening to what women tell you’ just does not cut it. At all.

    What, in my experience, does cut it is to become highly emotionally intelligent, empathic and emotionally aware. That allows you to read past the words, to the intentions. It allows you to grab and sweep off the ground the woman who says no but means yes, and it allows you to stay away from the woman who flirts and never says no, but means no or is only out there to use you for attention. And then it allows you to avoid both those types of women and to find one who has emotional integrity and self-awareness, and who has through self-love evicted enough of her inner shame to be able to be shamelessly and wonderfully herself. To finally find a woman who you can ask what she wants, and listen to and trust what she tells you. ABut good luck doing that if you’re a man. For that requires emotional self awareness, something the shame itself prevents us from developing – our entire upbringing is stacked against us doing that.

    And one more gripe with the author – she tells us to “never show [our] body unless [women] ask for it”. With all due respect, my body is my body. It is not there for women’s gratification, and I will do whatever I god damn like with it. It is amazing to hear that from a woman after all women go through in this department. If only she even started to understand the shame and social conventions that restrict men’s choices in clothing. Women complain that they are judged for what they wear. Men go around the world basically wearing uniforms – the work uniform or the casual uniform. Ever wonder why? Men, justifiably, get given grief if they comment on what a woman wears. But good luck being a man and wearing something as offensive as speedos at the beach. All while neither we nor women notice the double standard.

    Don’t mean to be too harsh with the author. This article is a good step in the right direction. It’s encouraging that a woman is thinking about these things. (As much as it’s discouraging that men seldom do). But it’s far from really being a fair representation of the issue yet, in my view.

    • I love your excellent response to the article that has helped me to really piece together what I’ve seen and tried to comfort the men in my life through… I think it’s a better article in its own right, and I’ve reposted it along with the original article.

      There is one point where I think there was a misunderstanding. You speak of “never show our body unless women ask for it,” I think this is actually a specific reference to dick pics in the original post, as if guys believe they are a lure to hook a girl in to play with them. I have no idea how that has become so common or so popular, but almost every guy who’s tried to date me has sent me pics. It’s actually a big turn-off.

      I like to say that, “If I like you, I like your dick. I won’t like you specifically because of your dick, that’s not how it works… but all of us will have a great time if I like who you are!”

    • Great article! Thank you, Alyssa! By the way, that is myself in that image. It took a great team of professionals and a lot of hard work to create it. Please feel free to credit us; We would appreciate it!
      ©Robert Bejil Photography 2013
      Models Jin N Tonic & Joshua Keith Mathews

      Thank you!

    • Excellent article. Everything I have studied about sex, dating and nature of humans is right here in this article. Love that you as a woman are writing about this. Thank you so much. 🙂

    • Thank you. There are honest sharings in both the article and this reply that begin to open a conversation about the real ways that people feel. A polarized narrative doesnt really help, honest sharing does.

  20. A.ka. the media says you girls should have a low sex drive? ???? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah! ! Have you ever seen a music video lately? Sicki Minaj, ke$ha, Madonna etc etc etc ….

  21. El Catcha says:

    The kernel of the problem is in the education:

    “Many of us do a mommy / daughter sex-ed class at Seattle Children’s Hospital as our daughters get close to starting menstruation. In the session of the class that is less about biology and more about navigating sexuality, the presenter offered the idea that girls would have to start learning how to say “no” to boys who were going to want to touch them sexually.

    I looked at my daughter, who sort of rolled her eyes at me. And the woman went on, listing the many ways that girls could rebuff boys. I looked at my daughter again, and she said, “go ahead mom.” And I did. I raised my hand and said, “Can we also talk about how to teach girls to say ‘yes’ to sexuality. Can we teach them that sex is about pleasure for all parties involved, and that learning how to identify and say ‘yes’ to things that give them pleasure is how they learn to draw their boundaries and say ‘no’ to things that don’t.”

    Which social agents teach ANYTHING to young boys, about who women are, what is proper behavior, the notion of mutual respect?

    None! How insane is that?

    • Do I need to remind you that there are plenty of sex-ed class where both girls and boys feature?

      How insane is it to be so one-track minded?

      • Be that as it may, aside from learning how to use a condom it is true that (socially) the focus is way more on girls about learning how to deal with boys, than that boys learn how to deal with girls (”boys will be boys” and therefore not much attention is paid to that side of the coin)

  22. El Catcha says:

    Excellent article! it will hopefully start a way overdue conversation on this topic.

  23. Dina Strange says:

    Penises, balls AND anuses are NOT beautiful. I don’t know what the author is smoking.

  24. Thank you for the article. You took words out of my mouth, words that I’ve said to other men on many occasions. What you did not say was that a part of being an ally is to talk with other men about these issues. My bête noir is “essentializing” You know, “Men are like this, women are like that”. You’d think that in a society like ours that affects to prize individualism, this would not be so prevalent.

    Of course, both men and women would like a foolproof instruction manual to negotiate relationship with another person, whatever the gender/sex mix might be. But putting on a mask or putting one on your partner is not the way to have connection. Even if such behaviour succeeds, what has it succeeded in getting? The experience of sex is great; fully experiencing a partner by means of sex is the grand prize.

    Keep up the good work.

  25. I agree with everything you’ve said – except the phrase ‘cismen’. Its a ridiculous word that has crept into the liberal vocabulary. It is redundant, like saying ‘hamburger sandwich’. I have zero issue with people who have gender flexible worlds, but to call a man who identifies as a man (or a woman, for that matter, who identifies as a woman) as a ‘cisman’ or ‘ciswoman’ devalues people who are simply men and women.

  26. The first half of the article is pretty good, but it ends in cliches that contradicts the first part.

    “don’t support violence against women” – presupposes that at least the majority of men readers need this advice.

    “instead of getting frustrated, ask women what they want” – because women always give clear answers on what they want and are always consistent. If a man is confused about what a woman wants, it’s because he isn’t considerate enough to listen. Stupid men!

    “lay off the cologne, and the pickup lines” – assumes the majority of the male readers are slick douchebags.

    If you want to write an article in support of men, don’t end it with assumptions that demonize them.

  27. Mike in Maryland says:

    Male inboxes overflow on how to “pick up women” and “make women irresistible to you” and most women (though they don’t admit it)* still want men asking them out and pay for social interactions. There’s no possibility of equality under that model.

    * I’m not mansplaining what women want. I’m citing polls. http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2013/08/21/dating_in_2013_who_pays_the_bill_when_both_men_and_women_work_men.html

  28. What is not recognized and mentioned in this article, and in most “conversations”, accusations and writings about men, women and sexual consent or alleged “rape”, is how so many women lie by passive aggressive omission or outright direct lying, by even when directly affirmed – asked by a man ( who actually does care and will totally respect her and any woman’s honestly directly stated boundaries ) she is relating with to please honestly, verbally directly tell him if she wants to stop or change anything about how he is giving affectionately / they are relating so he can actually know and thereby respect her subjective boundaries, many women don’t simply speak up honestly at the time to express if they don’t want something.
    Or they do at the time but some, due to their own and socially acquired fears, shame, judgment about even consensual sexuality in general or in context outside of narrow social, religious & personal norms ( non monogamous, after just meeting, with someone they don’t really love but they choose to be sexual with anyway then feel weird about it, if they are dishonest as some women are they blame / accuse the man of violating / raping her! Even though she chose to be passive aggressively dishonest & manipulative by not actually telling him directly verbally at the time of relating “no, I don’t want to do whatever it is she does not want at that time or ever with him. Stop. “.

    Relevant article –

    ” Why Would A Woman Lie About Rape?

    http://home.earthlink.net/~jamiranda/whyLie.htm

    This question is frequently asked by people who want to inflate rape statistics. Here are some of the answers:

    1. Revenge and rage. A woman feels “used” by a man after having had sex with him, or a boyfriend dumps her. Sometimes this is the result of game playing activity that gets out of control.

    2. Alibi. She comes from a puritanical background and other people found out she had sex so she claimed “rape” to disclaim responsibility. Or she can claim she was innocent when engaging in adultery. Or she may have gotten pregnant and wants to justify an abortion in an anti-choice community. The recent (and alleged as of May 2005) “Runaway Bride” case is an example of a woman falsely reporting a crime (in this case, kidnapping) as a cover for other activities.

    3. Money. Charging celebrities with rape or other crimes can lead to out of court settlements in which the accuser receives considerable sums of money.

    4. Attention-seeking and self-delusion. This is common in people with Borderline Personality Disorder and closely related to hypochondriasis and/or Munchausen’s syndrome.

    5. Divorce or child custody fight. Accusing a husband (or other partner) of rape or domestic violence serves as additional ammunition in dissolving a marriage or gaining custody of children.

    6.Pseudo-science. “Recovered Memory Therapy” and other fads encourage mass hysteria in which false accusations are routine.

    7. Racism. During the segregation era, white women would frequently victimize black men by claiming they were the subjects of their sexual advances. The Scottsboro Boys is one famous case in which women, in conjunction with racists, used false charges of rape to attempt to legally lynch nine men.

    8. Force competition among men. By claiming to be victims, women get men to compete and fight among each other. Patriarchical men, who gain their power by victimizing other men, use the excuse of “protecting women from rape” to attack other men. In other words, women who claim to be victims and rely upon the power structure to “protect” them are falling for the oldest sexist game in the book. The Emmett Till case is a notorious example of this sort of behavior.

    9.Corrupt criminal justice system. Prosecutors frequently make reputations for being “tough on crime” by persecuting men and women on trumped up charges of rape and sexual assault. See the William Hetherington case.

    10. Mass hysteria. The combination of sexual repression, paranoia, mob psychology and media sensationalism frequently leads to mass delusions in which the innocent are accused of the most outlandish sexual offenses. The McMartin Preschool case is a typical, disgusting example of how innocent people are falsely accused of sex crimes. There’s a long history of this sort of thing, from the Salem witch hunts through the lynching of African-Americans. Today’s mass hysteria over sex crimes may be just the latest manifestation.

    11. “Raising consciousness”. Feminists sometimes make up stories about rape in order to “alert” others about the threat of sexual assault. A recent case in which a feminist was charged with making a false report of rape.

    One study shows 41 percent of total disposed rape cases were officially declared false during a nine year period, that is, by the complainant’s admission that no rape had occurred and the charge, therefore, was false. The incidence figure was variable from year to year and ranged from a low of 27 percent to a high of 70 percent.

    Claims about rape and sexual assault are frequently exaggerated, such as the claim that one out of four college age women will be the victim of a rape/attempted rape. But the reality is quite different. For example, California State University Northridge reports the following number of sex offenses for 2003, on all campus properties:
    Rape: 4
    Sexual Battery: 12
    Statutory Rape: 1
    17 cases out of a campus population of several tens of thousands indicates the extremely low incidence of sex offenses on a university setting. Note there is no indication of how many of the alleged victims are men, or perpetrators women. The obvious point is that both men and women commit crimes, and lie about being the victims of crime. Justice is never served by mindless crusades.

    William Hetherington, jailed on bogus rape charges

    Why is this a critical issue?

    Because false charges of rape mean that innocent people have their lives destroyed.
    Because false charges of rape mean that real victims of rape will be discredited.
    Because false charges of rape tie up the criminal justice system in bogus cases.
    Because false charges of rape have been used by racists to scapegoat minorities.
    Because false charges of rape are used to stereotype men as perpetrators and women as victims.
    Because false charges of rape create mass hysteria and mob mentality.
    Because false charges of rape are used by men in power to reinforce patriarchy by playing into the “woman as victim” mentality.
    Because false charges of rape suport the prison-industrial complex and the criminalization of a generation.
    Because false charges of rape mean that innocent people have their lives destroyed-yep, I’m repeating this because it has to be repeated: false charges of rape destroy innocent lives.
    Raise your own consciousness about false charges of rape…

    Study of false rape charges.
    New research on false rape charges.
    A couple of famous fake claims of rape.
    Innocence Project: how corrupt can a criminal justice system get?
    Surviving a false charge of rape: from a guy who’s been in the trenches.
    Analysis of the politics of false rape charges
    More on the politics of crying “rape”.
    Inflation of domestic violence stats.
    “Rapo” game playing activity.
    False Accusations: lots of info.
    Games Women Play: must reading for anyone trying to date
    “Wage Gap”: another feminist myth.
    Falsely Accused? Resources if you’ve been a victim of a false accusation.
    iFeminists: a slightly more rational view.
    Mens’ Activism: fight male bashing!
    National Coalition of Free Men, Los Angeles: activist men’s group.
    Everyman: a journal which deals with civil rights.
    False allegation: more atrocities.
    The Straight Dope on Rohypnol: debunking of the so-called “date rape drug.”
    Some wisdom…

    If you think like a victim you will act like a victim
    If you act like a victim, you will be a victim.
    Hysteria over rape leads to thinking like a victim.
    If you want to avoid being raped, then do not fall for the hysteria.”

  29. Wonderful article and advice I needed to hear. I haven’t had sex in four years and it seems like everybody in my life is always trying to discourage me or throw salt on my game.

  30. Anonymous says:

    The cilantro comment is a nice way to think about things but the problem is while it is known that many people actually DO like cilantro, many men feel the NOBODY desires them and that is the kind of feeling that can drive a person mad.

  31. As a man, I can agre

  32. Wood Artist says:

    For the most part the ideas contained herein a both valid and constructive. However, the article seems to ignore one rather significant aspect of #YesAllWomen and the contained anger it has released. The premise, which was hurled at me by a number of “friends” is simply “You’re a male, so you’re just like all the rest and that makes you a rapist.” So…with that as the starting line, the initial statement in the conversation, do you really believe I’m now in a good frame of mind to offer suggestions or help? No, I’m not. I’m not a rapist any more than all men returning from Vietnam were baby killers. Accusations like that not only don’t further the conversation in fixing the problem, they also hurt…and they leave lasting scars. When I protested my innocence, I was told I was “being emotional.” Whoops. Another screw up. Men (despite the approach suggested above about talking and stuff) aren’t allowed to be emotional. God forbid we should ever cry. Well, sorry to burst your bubble, but I do cry. And being called a rapist triggered that response. For the record, I have metastatic cancer and the treatment makes it physically impossible for me to rape anyone, but I didn’t do that before the cancer either. If you truly want me to help change things for the better, start by asking for my help. Sadly, it’s a bit late for that now. I’m smart enough to not go back into the ring when the whole crowd simply wants to beat me up for something I never did.

  33. Todd Alexander says:

    I don’t demonize male sexuality, I demonize all Human sexuality whenever it is purported to be anything more than a simple biological function, one that we are WAY too fixated on. It is at the very core of what is wrong with the human condition, in terms of advancing as a species. It absolutely dominates all aspects of our civilization. Just how many potentially substantive songs, movies, books have been dumbed down by the obligatory romantic storyline? Also, consider the incredible array of not just personal suffering, but violent crimes that occur when “love” doesn’t play out that way in real life. Our civilization’s driving goal seems to be squaring the circle of trying to repackage the most base, primal, biological urge into the fictional concepts we have regarding romantic love. We attach SO MUCH of our precious sense of ego to how virile we are….well dogs, and monkeys and rats are virile too….not so impressive if you really think about it. Leo Tolstoy said it much better than I can “Let us stop believing that carnal love is high and noble and understand that any end worth our pursuit — in service of humanity, our homeland, science, art, let alone God — any end, so long as we may count it worth our pursuit, is not attained by joining ourselves to the objects of our carnal love in marriage or outside it; that, in fact, infatuation and conjunction with the object of our carnal love (whatever the authors of romances and love poems claim to the contrary) will never help our worthwhile pursuits but only hinder them.”

  34. “2. Ask women what they want, and listen to what they tell you.” please be my guest. The other day I was talking to a female friend of mine when I asked her why do women never tell you what they want sexually she replied: “it’s nice when you don’t have to say anything”. With this mindset there is clearly a lot of work to do from the women’s side. I always ask but usually don’t get any response.

    “3. Let us in, don’t lure us in. Lay off the cologne, the pick-up lines, and the games.” this is double standards.
    Will women also drop the cologne, games, nice clothes, diets, beauty products and nice clothes? I doubt it. I personally will feel more attracted towards those who use the above to some degree. Why cannot men improve themselves just like it is socially accepted for women to do so?

  35. The whole societal make up needs to be redone. It can be pretty scary being female because of all the talk about sexual assault. Sometimes it seems that no matter what we do, there is some pervert out there who wants to rape you and you are never safe anywhere–not even in your own house! For those of us who HAVE been raped and brutalized, those feelings multiply.

    And on the other hand, it would be pretty hurtful and frustrating for the good men out there who truly would never want to harm anyone. My boyfriend was trying to help a woman who dropped a bunch of things in a parking lot. When he went to help her, she took one look at him, screamed and ran leaving all the things she dropped behind. My boyfriend came home sobbing.

    So yeah, we really do need to fix this. =(

  36. “Be an ally. Help us stop the violence against women. I am assuming that none of you would do what happened in Stubenville, but would you have helped stop it? Have you been vocal about how wrong it was? About how that should not represent you or your sexuality? From a societal perspective, we need your help. From a personal perspective, when we feel safe, we let our guards down, and that’s the first step to an intimate connection.”

    True for white people when they observe any racist behavior from their fellow whites (no matter how benign or “oh it was meant satirical”)

  37. Hi FlyingKal
    I never call a person an idiot.
    But it is true I do not like porn.

    But I agree that you annoyed me,and made me angry.
    Are you still in the mood for quarreling ? I am not.
    Of course you get my apologies,but somehow I feel you never forget no matter what I say.
    I do apologies !
    Jeg legger meg flat.

    Lets move on Flyingkal. Debates online is difficult,particularly when we discuss themes that resulted in the break up of my marriage and maybe also your as well. Sensitive issues to put it mildly …….
    Take care and enjoy what is left of our short summers here up north. Soon it will be over.

    • FlyingKal says:

      Hi Iben,
      I am sorry if my writing brought back bad memories from your past.
      But it was never my intention to make anyone upset. You asked and said from the beginning that you wanted to know about my (and others) feelings, and I tried to answer and explain as best and honest as I could.

      I am not angry at you, and I never was angry at you.
      I just got frustrated and felt that our discussion was pointless, because as I wrote, I felt that you didn’t actually read what I was writing.
      Vi snakker förbi varandra, som vi sa båda två.
      And now, I’m just a bit surprised to see that you seem to have changed your mind.

      So I will gladly continue to engage in any exchange of thoughts and opinions here, unless you want me to stop. And I won’t quarrel about this any more. But I might share a little less freely my feelings and thoughts.

      Take care, you too.

  38. Hi Flyingkal

    I hope you had a good warm summer?
    This thread is now so long that I find it impossible to find the comments you refer to.
    We have moved ahead to other threads Flyingkal.
    I am sorry if I upset you in any way. Online debate makes many of us less empathic than we would be in a fact to fact conversations as you well know.

    • FlyingKal says:

      Hi Iben,
      well, the summer wasn’t very warm, but it was still pretty good. Spent a few weeks in the Aurland region of Norway. Camping, hiking and climbing a bit in the mountains. Biking the old worker’s road along the Flåm railway to Myrdal. BOTH ways! 😀 Fantastic scenarios.

      But whatever. I just wanted to tie up some loose ends I discovered.
      I must have made an impact that you are still talking about me, even if you are talking shit about me behind my back. So I guess I should be flattered, huh? 😉

      • Hi Flyingkal

        Yes you will not be easily forgotten. And again forgive me for my anger,I am a novice to debate online.
        And read this from today’s The Guardian:
        http://www.theguardian.com/technology/blog/2013/jul/29/internet-comment-flame-wars-why

        Flåmsbanen is an exiting railway journey. You passed the farm my grandmother was born in and grew up in. Wild landscape.

        And let me whisper something in your ear. You must also get some pleasure out of the lovemaking ,the fun is not for the ladies only but for both. I fear you are too kind and giving. Life is give and take ,even in bed. Do not be afraid to take . I am sure you understand what I mean.

        • FlyingKal says:

          Hi Iben,
          Your comment about being too kind and giving strikes me as kind of funny, as the last comments you wrote (about) me before or during my leave, was more about how selfish and unconsiderate I seemed to be towards the women in my life, and that I probably hated you for pointing that out!

          However. Yes, life is give and take. But I have the opinion that in making love or “just” having sex, you can’t take something that your partner are not willing to give, if you know what I mean.

          But yes, Flåmsbana is an exciting railway. And going down the old “rallarvei” on a mountainbike is even more exciting than sitting on the train.

  39. A Critic says:

    “1. Be an ally. Help us stop the violence against women. I am assuming that none of you would do what happened in Stubenville, but would you have helped stop it? ”

    With extreme prejudice.

    “I am sorry that generations of lazy storytelling and bad media have perpetuated the myths of men as predators and women as victims. ”

    There’s more to it than that. There is the rabid lunatic man-hating type of feminism. My mother got into it when I was a young teen and I was told many times how evil men are. Now I’m in my early thirties and haven’t dated or gotten laid in many years in large part because I feel that any expression of sexual interest is wrong. Intellectually I know this is not true…but it’s so very hard to overcome the self hatred.

  40. Jeff Jackson says:

    Great article, until the instructions for me how to reverse your bad programming.

    Let me take it a step further, how many young men, coming into their sexuality we’re completely obliterated by girls acting on their societal driven fear of men? Seriously 95% of you drooled for the 2% of the guys in the school who WOULD rape you. When you ‘settled’ (yes I heard that conversation from two girls) on a guy who was actually nice, you walked all over him, took every bit of generosity he offered, refused sex and then went and had sex with a rapist to get your kicks.

    The fun part, I’m now shoving it in your faces. Attractive, mature, responsible, and successful, when a woman makes advances on me I laugh at her, tell her everything that’s wrong with her, and then run off with the guys. The funny thing, instead of watching me sit and cry that I didn’t take home the psycho bitch at the end of the night, like you used to in high school; I now go home with the hottest woman there, the 1 frumpy girl who was begging for any boy to pay attention to her, got HOT and now she’s my lovely wife and highly sexual. Chauvinists you wish you had it this good!

    So next time you start telling me, someone who’s never raped in his life, how I have to fix the problem of your inadequate education and inability to form cohesive thoughts as an adolescent, think hard about it. Your damage is simply not my problem. I’m not standing up against some rape some frat did, nor any other rape. I’m not standing up on how despicable it is because quite frankly I’m neither a victim nor predator in the case.

    How about THIS for changing the way things work.

    1. Parents teach their children how to enjoy sex responsibly.
    2. Teach both boys and girls that they are to respect each other.
    3. Take the moral/ethical education of our children away from the fear mongering government?
    4. Teach our children that sex isn’t a possession or a right, but something people love to share with each other.
    5. Teach our children that marriage isn’t about possessing your partner.
    6. Teach our children that attraction to several people is okay and that ‘the one’
    is in fact a myth.
    7. Teach women that sexuality isn’t a commodity they own but a practice that is enjoyable.
    8. How about you stop asking those who never raped anyone to do your work.

    You wrote the article, government/religion/parents gave you a crappy education, sorry; not my fault. I got one that was equally bad, I saw past it before I was out of high-school, where were you, still dating the rapist over the quirky guy with a slightly-sexually-twisted but sweet sense of humor?

    Change the education, don’t expect me to step up and preach against rape. I’m going to teach my daughter that sex is good fun to be had with a responsible mind set between consenting individuals.

    • I think that might be all you need to do to prevent rape. Have open dialogue with your children, rather than overly heated dialogue on a message board.

      I’m sorry you got blown off in high school. It seems like you need to let go of some of that damage too.

    • I thought the OP made some very good and non bias points throughout her post. She related from a female perspective and had nothing negative to say throughout her entire talk.

      I’m at a loss to understand why you took that so harshly and responded with such a brash “me” “me” “me” attitude.

      It’s readily apparent that high school is tough, on everyone. But your skewed view of being victimized and unappreciated came out with the tone not unlike someone who’s got a chip on their shoulder. In your second paragraph where you said “now the fun part” and you went on a wild tangent, you spoke about how you treat women who come talk to you.

      Your a woman hater, bro. Hate to say it straight.

      But maybe, just maybe you were having an off day that day. This is a chance for you to tweak your post so you don’t come off as a “douchebag” in this online community. 😉

      -Joker

    • Well said for the most part. Especially your part about what to teach. Sounds kind of like the dutch.

    • Weird guy. The only thing that is okay is his list. The rest, show shows how much of an ignorant, hateful, prejudiced and emotionally unstable person he is.
      Doesn’t give a damn about people’s problems, thinks all the hot/popular guys in schools are rapists (!), that 95% of the girls sleeps with only these 2% hot guys (!?) and that all these girls/women are selfish, cheaters and psychopaths. Also, he can see with his ~super psychic powers~ what is wrong with women by only approaching, so he goes on and tells everything that is wrong with them and laughs at them because well, women don’t deserve respect and he knows better. Of course he does, he was a guy in high school that overheard TWO girls talking shit! Oh, and if you want to be his wife, better be hot, that is the only thing that matters for women. This guy’s logic is gold.

      “I’m not standing up on how despicable it is because quite frankly I’m neither a victim nor predator in the case. ”
      Some people stand up for people without being victim or perpetrator because they are humanists. Because they aren’t bitter chauvinists like you. They care about other people’s problems. If you don’t, that is your problem. But please, don’t complain when something bad happens to you and then you see yourself without help.

      It is time to grow up and out of this juvenile victimization talk. High school sucks, for most everyone. Girls didn’t like you, I see. Most girls weren’t liked by guys as well. Learn with these girls, they aren’t here complaining about some past childish happening, right?

  41. Dear Alyssa,

    First I want to thank you for this article. I really appreciate what you are doing here and I hope you continue your worthwhile contributions. Having said that, I do need to give you some feedback on one point:

    “4. Don’t take it personally. Your self worth is in no way connected to whether or not some girl (or guy) wants you.”

    When I read this, I found it insensitive, unrealistic, and false to my experience. I believe it is also false to the experience of most people, but especially to cisgendered, heterosexual men. Men in our culture are disproportionately made to feel sexually unwanted and rejected. See the article by Noah Brand about this (http://goodmenproject.com/ethics-values/brand-men-must-be-needed-because-we-cant-be-wanted/) and the article by Hugo Schwyzer about how men are made to feel their bodies are repulsive just because they are male (http://goodmenproject.com/ethics-values/the-male-body-repulsive-or-beautiful/). Many other examples abound. So if such men feel so unwanted, they can and should be forgiven for reacting with particular sensitivity (on the one hand) or reacting with callous bluster (on the other), since coping with constant rejection is a fact of life.

    I found it especially insensitive that this advice came from a woman, since cisgendered, heterosexual women – especially White woman, and especially those who may conform to the body image promoted by the media – are at the pinnacle of privilege when it comes to playing the role of ‘object of sexual desire’. It is probably very easy to brush off a feeling of being temporarily unwanted when you live in a world of constant (even oppressive and annoying) expressions of desire directed towards you. It’s a problem some of us would love to experience, for a change.

    Again, please don’t let this complaint overshadow my positive feelings about your article as a whole. Know that my response comes from vulnerability and the experience of hurt in the area of rejection, so please take it in the spirit I intend, which is to inform.

    -Eric

    • Supra deluca says:

      Yeah, I believe she said it in a very light way and with the best of intentions. I see you know this as well. And that is mostly the same she would say to women that do not fit the beauty standard (that are most of the women, plus the ones that fit but still believe they don’t).
      But trust me: most women do NOT see it as a “privilege” at all. Really. Because it is the only thing society considers them about, because of the many downfalls and everything else. Also because their sexual freedom is still castrated and denigrated on top of that. A lot of the expressions of desire, as you already pointed out, is annoying, sometimes even rude, intrusive and humiliating. So yes, a lot of women would better be left alone and be invisible for a chance.
      We need to balance that out, uh?

  42. Stop trying to make “cis” a thing. It’s not a thing. It’s never going to be a thing.

    • leah rose says:

      yes, thank you! uhg, awful term. any suggestions for other language, tho? there seems to be a need for a “born male” designation, but not that one. please god, not that one.

      • Michael Rowe says:

        “Cis” doesn’t mean “born male,” it means not having any other gender identification, internal or external, than the one that one is born with. If you want to take issue with a word, it never hurts to understand what it means, first.

        • Kerry Soileau says:

          “Male” means “has cells with XY chromosomes. Trying to complicate language to accommodate someone’s inability to deal with their own cell biology is a ridiculous exercise in PC. Invent a new word meaning “I don’t like my cells.”

          • Kenneth Winosh says:

            “Male” may mean XY chromosomes, but “man” does not. We play out what gender we identify with every day. This might sounds hokey, but honestly you don’t have any access to seeing my genitalia or my genes so the gender that people accept me as is the one that they see, which by definition is how i’m dressed/act etc. It’s not even about being PC, it’s about practicality really, to judge people on their genitalia and genes (while traditional) fall very quickly into problems not just socially, but also medically as approximately 1:100 people have (at least slight) disagreement between genes and gender phenotype. What do you do with people with XY chromosome but born without a penis and born with breasts, who develops hips at puberty? Before we knew about genes this person would be considered 100% female, by the mid/end of last century perhaps 100% male, now we realize that both of these are probably wrong.

      • what about just male.
        and female.
        round peg, round hole. why do we have to make things complicated?

        • Because gender, sex, and orientation are all different things.

          Gender is an internal expression of who you are.
          Sex is a physical expression of reproductive traits.
          Orientation is who you’re attracted to.
          If your gender and sex are compatible from birth, you’re cis-gendered if they don’t you’re trans-gendered. So yes you can be a cis-gendered homosexual male or a transgendered straight female, or anything other combination. There are 3 different axes in play.

          This is why a doctor can perform sexual reassignment surgery but not gender reassignment.

    • I agree. I like the tone of this essay and it’s overall message, but using a term like “cis” on a site like this, especially without decoding it, smacks of a condescending and overly academic view. It might make complete sense used in a gender studies-focused collegiate forum, but using jargon like that on a popular site for the general public is like when my fellow parents of autistic kids refer to every non-autistic person solely as “a neurotypical”. It’s not a conventionally accepted term, and it probably never should be. You don’t achieve greater acceptance of fringe conditions by inventing and trying to popularize new terms to describe the mainstream.

      Aside from that, good on everything else written.

  43. I was searching for this article and came across this blog that has a follow up that I thought was pretty good:
    http://aconsideredmaleopinion.weebly.com/

    Looks pretty new. The first post is about this article but raises some interesting points I thought. Just thought Id share.

  44. I was re-reading this when I came across #2. A couple of male friends just had this situation online where they DID ask a woman, in private chat sessions (it was the same woman) what her availability was, and she kind of went off on them and made the incidents public in a forum we all share. For me, this is the tragedy: that even a man respectfully asking a woman he’s interested in if she has any interest (for the record, both of these questions were pretty innocuous) is considered a predator who :”makes” a woman feel “unsafe.” As a cis hetero woman who enjoys men and male sexuality a great deal, and also sees it as complex rather than black and white (i.e. “mmmm: me stick penis in your vagina”) this makes me angry. I appreciate that sometimes women DO genuinely feel unsafe with men, but in this case, everyone was in different states. And all they did was express mild and innocuous interest in a woman who seemed interesting. And they got blasted. It’s no wonder, to me, that so many men have just stopped showing any sexual interest in women at all.

    • Tracy E Hieatt says:

      That was a result of the molestation crusade of Janet Reno in the 90s, plus the exposure of actual abuse going on. It put that fear into the public consciousness. Hopefully we rubberband back to the middle of normal soon. This is why it is absolutely critical to have science-based sex, gender, and critical thinking education for everyone, so we can work from the ground up to change this and create value in all people.

    • Joe Schmoe says:

      I’ve separated myself from sex and relationships now, and I hope that people will approach this with an open mind. I can’t tell you what an enormous weight has been lifted from me. It’s not having this THING hovering over me. I don’t fear rejection, retaliation, or drama. I stand a little taller now, I’ve given up worrying about what anyone thinks. I feel like I can be myself for the first time.

      I know a lot of readers are going to pile on and tell me to get help, but I can only imagine this is what an addict feels like after being clean for at least a year. – just my perspective.

      • Actually, I’m in pretty-much the same boat as you, which I guess is why this article speaks to me. It’s always felt wrong to me that I was expected to be an aggressor in the relationship– and as such, most of my romantic and / or sexual encounters have turned out poorly. I never felt like I was allowed to be who I really am in these situations, so it’s no wonder to me in hindsight why things fell apart when the illusion started to dissolve.

        So yeah– I know that feel, bro.

        • Dangerous mantra -with a risk of becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy- so thanks for the great article countering it. Except in the real world the “steps” are bullocks. Maybe it’s waiting until the majority of women understand that fostering this is in their own interest ?

          #1 : being an ally is taken as being patronising. Or taken as “he just wants to get in my pants”. Both come with baaaad reaction. (Except when you’re a good-looking famous person.)
          #2 : men are supposed to “magically known” what women want, else you’re evidently not worth their consideration as “asking is not attractive”.
          #3 : the worst one. IT JUST DOES *NOT* WORK LIKE THIS.
          #4 : maybe I am just really “tinfoil soaked in dish soap” (instead of cilantro) -in which case I probably should get a bullet- it just does *not* work like this.
          #5 : if you have six-pack ribbed abs, yes. Else ? Hell no. At least that’s the message I’ve been getting from women around.

          Though thanks for writing this, I guess I’m merely pointing out that there’s still a loooot of work to do on this, that polarisation doesn’t work, where understanding can come a long way.
          Meanwhile -eventhough I have a deeply romantic and cuddly heart- like previous posters I’ll stay away from women and dating them, as it’s just impossible and incredibly hurtful.

          • Remote Mike says:

            #1 Yes, being an ‘ally’ may be sloppy phrasing, but from what I’ve read it looks like being an ally is becoming the de facto shorthand for “If there is an opinion being voiced that I disagree with make sure there is a dialogue instead of a monologue, even if you are not directly affected”

            #2 There is more than one way to ask a question. Having “will you sleep with me” as your opening gambit is quite different to getting to know someone to the extent you can tell whether the (type of) question will be well received.

            #3-5 I don’t want to say too much here in case it comes across antagonistically, but why do you think this is? People are more than one thing, if you can’t find any common ground they’re probably the wrong person anyway.

            A previously linked blog has a reply considering what women could do that may be relevant http://aconsideredmaleopinion.weebly.com/1/post/2013/07/the-dating-game.html

            It seems like you have a lot to say. Maybe you should add to the dialogue and put it on paper. If you can work out what you want to say in advance it might be easier to share it with someone you’re interested in.

            • #2 According to my female friends my sexual interest -left alone bringing that across- comes “too late”. I haven’t ever opened like that, though I notice for some that actually works, possibly the only thing that works.

              #3-5 From my experience and from listening to women with whom I have a conversation on the subject either games either physical hotness is what spikes a woman’s attraction, else -just be open to let them in- you’re “boring” to women. So yeah, I do agree with the second part of your follow up article : if change is to be expected, it’ll have to be mutual. When asking men to be respectful while women create a reality that such leaves you behind, it ain’t working, it ain’t gonna last.

              I’m not saying that any of this is universal, but it IS my experience, the reality around me. Lucky for me is that all it takes is ONE women to be different. 🙂

        • Hi,
          i feel the same way and i live with a woman. i’m just not interested in begging, cajoling or tricking a woman for sex, it’s just not worth it. i don’t bother my mate for sex and she doesn’t bother me for it either, and i don’t care if she’s doing someone else. over the years, i just grew tired of being seen as a threat (i’m a black male) or as an incompetent (asking instead of knowing). after enough rejections i began to really dislike women, now i don’t really care one way or the other. i’ve grown to distrust women because i’ve been with several who are manipulators. the woman i’m with now is not really a woman to me, she is a friend and a person, someone i get along with rather well, someone i can trust. i don’t really care about the whole sex thing now because i am over the games and such that are attached to it. i hope that what you talk about comes to pass so that young men can finally get over feeling like they have to do all the tricks and b.s. maybe someday men will have a chance to decide if THEY want to have sex with the woman who’s buying them a drink.

  45. Jeff Johnson says:

    Thanks for the great article. I did have a couple of thoughts though.
    “Let us in, don’t lure us in.” I fully feel that is the correct way to approach a relationship. But at the end of the night, I go home alone and Tucker Max goes home with two new women. This is one thing that I see never changing as long as the guy using the lures get the girl and the guy who doesn’t gets the cold shoulder.

    “Dont take it personally” — I love your Cilantro comment. Most of the time however I feel a bit more like Marijuana. Sure there are women out there who want me. But do I want them? None of them really seem like the kind of women you introduce to the parents.

  46. mindcrafter says:

    Great points and i totally agree. But if you are not an attractive male and u want the once in a lifetime experience of sexual experiences with a very attractive woman, it is generally discouraging enough after many tries to get you desperate enough to try games, tricks and cologne.

    • But what do you mean by ‘not an attractive male’? Different women have completely different tastes, and how you behave also changes how people see you.

  47. “But the only way we’re going to change it is together, and it’s gonna take time. We need to all be better.”

    Fine. Count me in.

    I agree that our culture has no socially acceptable mechanism for males with a healthy sexuality to express that sexuality in a healthy way.

    We need a new category between abstinent and predator. One that sexual but respectful men can identify themselves with. At the same time, a category that will be treated with respect and trust instead of fear and disgust.

    Paradoxically, by demonizing all male sexuality, we support rape culture. We are excluding the possibility of positive role models.

  48. I…. I really like your goal. It’s lovely.

    And your suggestions for the solution all seem to be routed in the same assumption — that men are the primary actor in sexuality, that it’s male desire that is fundamentally problematic. Indeed, none of your suggestions are addressed to women –let alone mutual.

    And… that finds me… sad. Very sad that in trying to expound something beautiful the only road that appears to you, to us is part and parcel of the problem.

    And I wish that I had a list of mutual suggestions — I’m not writing from a place of knowledge. Just sadness that it appears to someone who believes in mutuality that the responsibility is not-mutual.

    Here’s hoping that we can find a real solution. One that’s outside the frame of “toxic desire” rather than firmly rooted in it.

    • Nate:

      “And your suggestions for the solution all seem to be routed in the same assumption — that men are the primary actor in sexuality, that it’s male desire that is fundamentally problematic. Indeed, none of your suggestions are addressed to women –let alone mutual.”

      She addresses this to men because men are the ones with the most power to change things, and because we’re the ones who collectively allow members of our sex to go off and murder members of the other sex for reasons of entitlement. I think we should be a bit grateful that some women still believe we’ve got it in us to get our act together.

      • another says:

        Where is this collective guilt coming from? How is it that a man who, for example, is family-oriented, peace-loving, productive, compassionate, involved in his community and who is an outspoken egalitarian bear responsibility for a second man, one whom he as never known, who commits murders (of either sex)? Would it not be the family and friends (and perhaps bullies and teachers) of those who kill be the ones who bear responsibility – if there is anyone else to blame other than the murderer himself? And as for us “allowing” these few psychotic killers to go loose – Would not the overwhelming majority of men, if they were in a position to do so, attempt to stop them?

        I know women who can see that I have my act together, and I know other men who meet with the same approval. These women, at least, are wise enough to see us as individuals, and to judge us as such.

      • Fully agreed with Jon.

  49. Hi Archy
    Are you referring to white and Japanese women’s sex tourism to Gambia and Kenya?
    Yes people all over the world can act unethically sexually,not only white women.

    . in a country in the south where many are unemployed or have jobs with wages are so low that some people are willing to do nearly anything to improve their standard of living, this can be exploitive. The sex tourists also break the law if they come from a country where buying sex is illegal at home and abroad.

    The thing is that also some women buy sex,but refuse to admit that they do.
    And women do desire men and their bodies. No doubt about that.
    Some buy a new man every day,some buy many different men each day.The payment is food,cloths,cars,a condo…etc.

    Let us hope some of the relationships are genuine love relationships just like some of the relationship elderly men have with women 20-30 years younger than them self can love..

    • Wasn’t aware of the sex tourism, I mainly comment on Australian life and a bit of American culture that I get from reading comments and watching movies:P

  50. denvy jaokar says:

    Lol, even Muppets have a conscience when it comes to sexuality. Sweet and Funny. http://youtu.be/AQh5G8mOiSA

  51. Jules
    I was not thinking of control and possessiveness . Not at all. Quite the contrary.
    I do not know what to say .
    I wonder if you are too civilized …and I can not find the right words for how I feel.

    You have to believe in love Jules, also when it looks like it is gone( or she is gone). If I told you the story of my life you had understood. But this is not the place.
    Your wife did you a lot of emotional harm .
    You are not Alex any longer Jules. I do not know what to say, I am sad.

  52. ogwriter says:

    Iben Feminist Simon de Beauvior was a wack job of the highest order and a hypocrite on so many levels.Why is she so highly thought of anyway?

    • Hi Ogwriter
      I don’t know. I have not read the feminist literature .

      I can not understand how open marriage is a marriage.
      To me it sounds more like a lifestyle where two persons wants sex with others without taking care of them.. Their marriage is a soft place to fall but the others they have sex with/ make love to will never have any security or get their needs met.
      Somebody gets terribly hurt in arrangements like that .
      Maybe Simon de Beauvior knew that at the end of her life.

      • My girlfriend also dates a guy in an open marriage, for quite some time now. He takes very good care of her. Her needs get met. All of ours do. We had dinner with him and his wife this week. We’re all great friends and very respectful toward each other. That’s normally what functional open relationships look like. I had to say something, you don’t know what you’re talking about.

  53. Hi Ogwriter
    We can agree about that,this dishonesty is bad.
    See if you can open this link .
    http://www.vgtv.no/#!/video/66064/dokumentar-kvinnelig-sexturisme-i-gambia

  54. ogwriter says:

    Iben Hello there.It is a well known fact,supported by plenty of statistics,that in midlife women initiate the vast majority of divorces.Nonetheless,it is men who are accused of dumping their loyal and innocent partners,choosing the red sports cars and blond secretary, attempting to recapture their flagging youth. Secondarily,when,if ever,will a woman on GMP demand that women stop raping and abusing others.Lastly,Dan Savage is a biased twit who women love because he never calls them out on their shit.Feminists,and women in general,love any man who does that for them.

    • Hi Ogwriter
      Yes we can agree on that. And I am one the women that initiated divorce. I was tired of mistresses and a man that though he could have his cake and eat it too.

      But you seem to predict strong relationship between the number of sex partners a woman have during her lifetime and the chance that she will divorce you in the future.
      I guess .It is a relationship but how large? It is small.

      If you want predict the chance that a certain women will probably leave you in the future you must focus on other factors in her life,and her personalty, her emotion health and other factors.
      .And you have to look at yourself too. Some men are so good to be with that no woman will leave them,…sigh….

      Nobody wants to be abandoned Ogwriter.

  55. Hi Jules
    I do not have the impression that you see sex as dirty.
    I should have used other words. But there is some ( many) men Jules that see women sexual experience as not a good thing. They can have so many different reasons for this, but it can be that they see sex out of marriage or without a committed relationship as bad,sinful or a sign of bad moral. Sometimes it is a sign of a person messed up,we all know that. Casavovas are neurotic men, and bed hopping can be a sign of lack of self respect. But some persons are perfectly healthy emotionally and can have sex with a person the just met,in a warm caring way that harms nobody.

    In your case I guess your moral it is the teachings of the Bible combined with your personalty.
    Some prefer one person or only long lasting relationships. I am like that now,but I was different when I was younger.
    The thing is Jules that some can have sexual happenings and short time relationships that is good,warm,kind,pleasant ,respectful,sensual and sexually fullfilling even if both persons know this this will not last.
    When I look back at my life I have some happenings with decent men that is only good memories . I did not use the man and he did not use me.

    If then a man ask me :” what is your number ” like only an American man can,then what is it he wants to know or understand ?
    And why does it matter if women do have more sexual partners than men through our life time? I have had more sexual partners than you. So what ?

    We never ask that question about numbers where I live. I have never asked anyone that question and nobody has asked me that question . The first time it happened was here on GMP.
    it is nothing wrong with choosing a partner like yourself Jules. Similar values are important in relationship.
    But it is true,I sense that men that ask what is your number see the woman as not girlfriend material . And he is free to so. I will never ask a man that question. I am far more curious about his porn habits,but that is also an invasion of his privacy to ask that question.
    So if I meet a man that likes me,that I fall in love with I will just take my time to get to know him and his personaly and caracter. His attitudes toward sexuality is important . Knowing his number will not tell me that.

  56. Hey Jules,

    How about you mind your own business and stop being so concerned with whether women have more sexual partners than men?

    It’s none of your business and it doesn’t make anyone a bad person for having 2, 5, 10, 30, 100, 600 etc sexual partners in their life time.

    You seem to have it out for women, geesh, settle!

    • Hi Keiza
      I agree with you 100%.
      And to ask a woman :” want is your number ” is an invasion of her privacy .
      It signals that the man is sexually insecure,jealous and possessive . That question is a red flag.
      He also see sex as dirty.

      To ask a question like that I feel is as impolite and weird as asking :”what is the size of your clitorise ?”
      .or if a woman ask a man the size of his penis.

      • @Iben…

        Hi!

        “It signals that the man is sexually insecure,jealous and possessive . That question is a red flag.
        He also see sex as dirty.”

        No such thing Iben. And where did I say sex is dirty? I have lots of sex with my girlfriend. If I thought it was dirty, do you think I would be having lots sex with her? NO!

        Sorry you have such a view of me. But, think as you please. You are free to do so.

      • ogwriter says:

        Kezia and Iben Judgements aside,how many sex partners a person has had,for a man, is an important consideration for a plethora of reasons.Again,I am not suggesting that it is ok for a man or woman to judge a person morally for having a robust sex life.

        • Hi Ogwriter
          Can you tell us more about this!
          I fear I do not understand it,but wonder sometimes if men are wired that way
          I understand that a man want a healthy women and not want infections. I understand also that he wants he to be loyal and faithfu . that i undertamd 100%.l . That implies that she can control her secularity when needed,
          I understand that men want to be certain that they actually are the father of their children.
          What I do not understand is their fear of being compared sexually to other men, and why do not women have the same fear?
          Well maybe they have today after online porn fill their mind ?

          And I understand that men just like women dislikes to be used sexually . Most of us wants love.

          To many bed partners can be a sign of some emotional issues but it does not have to be! Some virgins can have all sorts of emotional problems around sexuality.

          Tell us your views. I do rember some of your story from earlier….you used a good expression about how earlier in your life women fell into your bed like …..

          Share with us why this is of outmost importance for so many men .

          • @iben…..

            “Most of us wants love.”

            Is this really true. We really need to re-think this Iben.

            Then why do so many women (and men) spend so much time fucking people that do not love them? It’s a good question and a fair one.

            Personally, the #1 thing I want (from a woman) is Respect. #2 Loyalty, #3 Sex….I would never do a casual thing. Last year I went on a sex binge with two women. They are my friends and we did a friends with benefits deal. Never as a threesome. The sex was awesome. I was trying to make up for all those lost years with my ex wife. In the end, I realized this was not for me.

    • @Kezia…..

      “It’s none of your business and it doesn’t make anyone a bad person for having 2, 5, 10, 30, 100, 600 etc sexual partners in their life time.”

      I respectfully disagree. No, it does not make her a bad person. It makes her undesirable to me, only. What another man (or woman) thinks, I don’t give rats ass.

      Now, why don’t you mind YOUR own business and stop trying to tell ME what is relevant and important to me.

      Cheers!

  57. I commented but I don’t see it here so this time without URL

    Talking figleaf over at real adult sex is a hetero male who writes eloquently about sex and is not a douchebag. I’ve met him as well and he’s fabulous 🙂

    That should be enough to find him

  58. I think first and foremost men need to stop letting women dictate how they can be real men. Second women need to stop telling men how to be men, until women sprout a penis and deal with the stuff we deal with then they have no right to tell us what we need to be men. Women as mothers are and teachers are systematically failing boy’s and young men on a monumental level and nothing is being done to rectify the situation. We have moved into an age where boys have been taught that college is a waste of time and insult on a mans masculinity by the mothers and teachers out there. So please lets not have women telling us men how to be men anymore and lets see the courts stop giving priority to mothers when it comes to raising young men, because they have obviously failed if you look at society today and the confusion men are facing.

  59. Hi Archy
    ( I can not find you)
    Here is my thoughs about why women seldom see “men with only a pulse” as an a man to make love to/ have sex with. No matter how desperate she feels,and no matter how high unpleasant sexual tensions she has in her body. Women also get sexual tensions,and it can be so severe that it triggers anxiety and panick attack.

    I have read that both men and women can both reach orgasm within few minutes when they masturbate. This is also my own experience.
    But when a man makes love to a woman most women need longer time. Just imagine how men often prefer sex:
    A blow job.
    Penis in vagina intercourse.
    Anal sex.
    …..you fill out here your own preference (…….facials ?)

    Some books say around 70% of women will NOT get an organs by penis in vagina intercourse. She needs sophisticated lovemaking or a man that excites her intensely,preferably both .. ..

    I guess it is 70% with anal sex as well,but know absolutely nothing about that.
    And no women get an organs by giving a man a blow job

    If a woman goes out and pick any man ” with a pulse” for sex she most probably will end up frustrated and disappointed. A man can get at least some sexual satisfaction from any vagina or mouth but women’s biology our bodies are designed differently from a men’s. Masturbation gives better sex than most men with only a pulse …

    But even more important is that women wants to be turned on by the man first, attracted. And maybe sex symbolizes something different for women than it does for men. To let yourself be used by a just any stranger is not exactly what we dream about. The though is repulsive. (sorry but that is how I feel ).

    And last but not least important is the fact that society will judge a woman and call her a whore if she walks into the nearest bar each time she feels amorous and pick up the nearest man with a pulse. For lot a woman this means a new man every day,year after year.

    We also have the dangers of STD. Some STD are incurable like gential herpes.

    Dangerous are also those men that will not let go of her after sex. He feels she now belongs to him, he becomes possessive and wants to own her. So he start stalking her,or comes back for more,
    It is simply quite dangerous for women to bring strangers back home for sex,or go with strangers back to their home. You never know what kind of man he is. He can even by a sadistic killer like in the book the American phsycho.

    And of course women also want more from sexual intimacy than an orgasm. Just like men also do ,but maybe men get all their needs met by any woman with a pulse.. Lucky you! 🙂 we are more complicated.
    Sex with men “with only a pulse” is to boring.

    This is my thoughts about this,other women may see it differently.

    • @Iben….

      Hello!

      You write,

      “To let yourself be used by a just any stranger is not exactly what we dream about. The though is repulsive. (sorry but that is how I feel ).”

      Yes, but many women do Iben here in America. More than you think!

      Check out this link from Elephant Journal

      http://www.elephantjournal.com/2013/07/oh-the-obsessive-compulsive-lusting-nature-of-deep-desire/

      So, it deos seem to me that some or many women can and do enjoy sex with strangers……Just “physicality” is needed.

      As you state, it is quite complicated. What is disturbing is how so many women respond sexually in marriage and LTRs. Why the huge difference. When you read Bergner’s book, one of the finding is many women have greater orgasms from either sex with strangers or fantasies of sex with strangers.

      • Hi Jules
        Again you make me laugh.
        So Bergner tell us women have better orgasm with strangers. That makes me laugh.
        I wonder where they found those strangers ?
        I have to read that book. This is interesting.
        I probably would have shocked you if I shared some of my own sexual experience , but this is the Internet and we have to be a bit careful. 🙂
        You made my day Jules.

      • Hi Jules
        You ask me what I think about this:

        “So I got drunk and tried it out—the sex that is……….
        How is it that at my age, with my experience, that I still haven’t (or still hadn’t) learned to trust my own desire, or lack of it?…….
        At it’s ultimate, this old character trait was a contributing factor in the psychosis I experienced in 2004……………..
        My fiancé broke up with me after my first LSD-induced episode of psychosis………….
        This desire I’m feeling has nothing to do with the man I met. It lives inside me. It is me. My mind may attempt to engineer this or that so he can trigger the desire again, but I know better………..
        That’s the practice, right there, to sit in the fullness of desire without the compulsion to act on it.

        To allow it to be.

        In doing so, I stop objectifying and unconsciously manipulating the gorgeous men I meet into a starring role in my romantic dramas. Instead, I can meet them as they are, and see them as they are—full human beings with their own needs and wants, and their own desires.”

        I do not know what to think Jules. My life has been without drugs and alcohol,and I did not need to be drunk to permit myself to have sex.

        She describes that first she idealized men sexually and needed alcohol to have sex. Now she is healing and see men more like they really are and allows herself to feel desire for men without acting on that desire. Now see sees men as full humans beings.

        Well that is great Jules,when women can see men as human beings and not idealize and objectify them. A little bit objectifying is not bad though.

        Tell us why you find her story interesting Jules.

        • @Iben….

          I find it interesting because yet another American woman showing a preference,

          “No—for there to be real desire, not only does a man have to be smart and sharp and somehow knowing, he also has to embody a certain kind of physicality.

          He has to be in his body, own it almost. He might be dancer—slender, or muscle-bound thick, or musician—lanky… but he has that embodied quality.”

          Think about it Iben, 60% of men AND women are overweight in America. Around 35% are obese! But, yet another American woman wanting or preferring a Tall, Slender, Lanky, Smart man. It’s insane!

          That why here in America, we have all these well educated women whining about the fact they cannot find a good man. It’s a straw man Iben. There are lots of good men and good women. But, for some weird reason, these largely white middle/upper middle class women, often intelligent and well educated, seem to have gone off the deep end. They all seem to sexually desire the same type of men.

          Now, with Hispanic American women and Bl;ack American women, it is totally different. This is why feminist, largely white well educated elitist women, have so little respect amongst minority women.

          You have these feminist types silent on the issue of 60+ year old wealthy men marrying 20 something year old women. I’m sorry but everyone knows its about the money. I find it hard to believe a woman that young would find such a man sexually attractive.

          It’s hypergamy which feminist deny exist!

  60. Hi Jules
    She writes:
    ✺”See, I’ve never been able to warm to the idea that the default way to declare your undying adoration for someone is to give up sex with everyone else. It’s not that I think it’s a bad tactic, really — it just seems — I don’t know, unrelated.”✺
    http://www.xojane.com/sex/women-are-bored-by-monogamy-and-i-dont-know-whether-im-excited-or-scared

    And you ask me what I think ?

    I think some men and some women gladly give up sex with everybody else if they get the chance to share their life with the love of their life. This does not not mean that they never will feel tempted to be intimate with others. For me it has never been a deal breaker that my man had a fling. It hurts,but worse thing can happen in my life than that.

    Already some couples live in open relationships,and some visits sex clubs together.
    My city is said to have lots of sex clubs. I have never wanted to explore what that is all about,but many obviously do. Maybe I take for granted that all men will loose respect for me if I opened myself up for that lifestyle.

    It is impossible to know how we will be able to live together in the future sexually. I do not know what the trend is. We all need emotional security and we have organized our society so that we get the much of that security from the same person we have have sex with (make love to). Can it ever be separated?
    For me my deepest needs are security and cuddling. That need is deeper than my need for sex,even if my testosterone level is high.

    All this is complicated Jules. Jean Paul Sartre and Simon de Beauvoir(1908-1986) had an open marriage.
    I watched her in a television program before she died and she said this :” to have an open marriage was the most stupid thing I did in my whole life”.

    She regretted that decision..

    Find out what your deepest needs are,and also your girlsfriends deepest needs,and arrange your lifestyle according to that,if you can.
    Do you think that is possible?

  61. Hi Eliot
    (I can not find you)
    I think we shall ask Allyssa about this. She is a sex educator.
    It sounds to me that the women you meet have their unwritten laws about sex and you( and men) have other unwritten laws about sex. And they do not match.
    That is not something new Eliot. Ask you grandfather and maybe he will say men and women had different unwritten rules and expeditions even in his time as a young man.

    Women that push you for sex before you are ready they try to dominate you Eliot. Are you sure you want a relationship with a person that dominates you ? She will dominate you in other areas of life as well don’t you think?

    Lets ask our sex educator Alyssa about your problems Eloit. She is qualified to answer and I am not.

    • all women seek psychological dominance over their male lover: Its the reason for why they find fault with all things male, trying to make men feel ashamed of being men. Its why they refuse to give their men actual instructions on how to do things (whatever they are) more to their own liking, opting instead to expect the man to psychically know what the woman wants.

      All this is to keep the man in the relationship feeling as if he isn’t doing enough to satisfy his woman, and the unspoken, but still very clear message to the man, is that you as can never feel secure in your position, you can always be replaced without a moments notice and without ever even knowing what you did wrong. Why would a woman go through all this trouble and risk being disappointed when she doesn’t have too? Because if you keep a man feeling like he’s always on the verge of fucking up and loosing you, the logic is that he’ll be more compliant. The reality is that while the woman may have achieved control over the relationship, it is one based on manipulation and emotional abuse and unlikely to be emotionally satisfying to either party.

  62. This man has written eloquently about sec for years and he’s hetero 🙂

    http://www.realadultsex.com/

    I’ve met him, figleaf is really awesome

  63. Hi Tim
    I can not find you…
    Look at this. Readers of The Guuardian try to give some advice to a young man that never had a romantic relationship. Europens do not date like you in the US,we socialize. Maybe you can get some new ideas here?
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2013/jul/12/never-relationship-with-woman-clingy

  64. Iben

    Are you sure women terminate more romantic relationships than men? And IF they do maybe they are tired of holding the relationship together and do all the work without getting their needs met. Why shall women stay with men just to meet the mans needs only ? Women initiate divorce more often, and why not if you suffer for years. what it is the point being married if you are miserable?

    I do not think you have data that say women dump men more often than men dump women after they finally have sex. Lots if women experience the silent disappearance of a man after they had sex for the first time. He is no longer interested in her.

    Yes, more men than women are player types who would sleep with a woman a few times and move on. (Silent disappearance thing) BUT these men make up a very small percentage of the male population. We already had this discussion many times that most men simply don’t / cannot sleep around with a lot of women unless they are really good looking, popular, charming etc. Most guys (can) only have relationships.

    But more women than men terminate actual meaningful medium-long term relationships (and marriages). More women initiate break ups and dump their bf’s than vice versa. And the fundamental reason is that generally women have more options than men.

    Very often the cause of break up is that a better guy comes along or she begins to feel she can do better than him… get a better looking, more successful, more outgoing guy with a better lifestyle and social life.

    Let me try to explain to you how having more or few options affect a persons tendency to end relationships.

    When you have a lot of dating options, your whole mindset regarding relationships and dating changes. Your threshold for tolerating your partners mistakes will be lower, your tendency to compromise on the little things will diminish, you will become overtly conscious when your needs, expectations are not being met, you will be disappointed a lot more. Its just human nature. When you know at the back of your mind that you can get a new bf / gf easily, naturally you will have a higher tendency to to leave as soon as you start feeling your partner is not good enough or not according to your wishes and expectations.

    A person with a lot of options is also more likely to leave when the initial attraction, passion fizzles out and things become mundane and boring.

    On the other hand if a person has had very few dating opportunities in life then naturally they would develop a very different outlook towards dating and relationships. They would be a lot more cautious and willing to continue things even if the relationship or their partner aren’t exactly according to their expectations and wishes. They may even disregard that their major needs not being met and overlook their partners bad behavior and neglect. Why? Because they know at the back of mind that if their current partner leaves it might be years before another one will come along.

    Both men and women face disappointments in their relationships. You haven’t heard the male perspective on this. Men too also feel that they are pulling more weight in relationship and required to do more, men also feel taken for granted. But women terminate more relationships because they can get new partners more easily. This is the fundamental reason why women do more ‘dumping’ , initiate break-ups and divorces.

    • Hi Tim
      All this is new to me,that women dump men more often than men dump women because women have more options to start new relationships.

      I have never hears about this before. Are you sure this is correct? It sounds more like hypotheses made by men that feel powerless.
      Maybe this happens in America but I doubt if this is the pattern other places.

      I wonder if the situation in America is very special and different from other countries.
      And I ask my self what happened to the American man? A man that can not start new relationships?
      All this is completely new to me Tim. But then I know nothing about American culture. It is more different from Europen and Scandinavian culture than I imagined.

      I hope you are not right about this,because it sounds terrible. Are you sure this is not simply myths ?

      • Iben

        I don’t have a link to a survey or study on who does more dumping. It is however common wisdom and a generally observed phenomenon that, in dating and relationships, women do more dumping than men. So if 100 dumpings have taken place, perhaps 75 were done by women? I don’t have an exact figure.

        For divorces, however, there are statistics and they say 70% are initiated by women.

        As for the reason why women dump more than men, yes that was my hypothesis based on the fact (now this I believe is a fact) that the average woman has more dating options than men, and can start new relationships more easily and quickly.

      • @iben

        Hello!

        Have you noticed that no women have come forward to dispute what Tim and I have stated?

        They (many women on GMP) have not even bothered to issue a denial. So, what does that say?

        I speaks volumes. It is true Iben. Again, remember nearly 30% of men are incels.

        Yes, American culture is very different. Men are both desired and dispensable by many women. That’s just the way it is here in the USA!

        • Hi Jules

          No you should not think like that. I believe they have their attention elsewhere or are simply bored with us our conversation .

          I do not have a library with books about these issues but I am certain to have read that men find a new women fast after a break,while women do not. We can live alone and be just fine while men hate to be alone( not have a relationship).

          And we divorce because we are economically independent and not because we have lots of new men to marry. Tim’s logic does not hold closer scrutiny.

          If all women dump men just to try a new man,then how can we have lots of single men and lots of incels. Look at the numbers mathematically and you will see the flaws in this argument.

          In my city we are around 50% singles households.

          But you and Tim are on to something,but I refuse to believe American women or all women in this world are that cynical and calculating. We all look for love don’t we? At least I do, and you also Jules. And Tim wants some more experience before he settles down. That is understandable.

          But I have lost faith in marriage for me personally.
          And where I live most women will not dare to have one relationship after another and dump men when we see a chance something better. (All this sounds like life in Hollywood).

          Two of my women friends was killed by their ex. One shot and one knifed.
          To play with men and their feelings and passions is dangerous. Our sexuality is extremely strong feelings and to play with them callously like that is dangerous. No this is not what most women do. I refuse to believe American women dare live like that.

          • @Iben..

            Allow me to clarify. When I am referring to women, I am specifically talking about American women. Dating pattern differ widely in various countries and cultures.

            I got married at age 32. Prior to marriage I had 4 partners. My last partner was in 1990. I was married in 1995. So, going long periods with a girlfriend or sex I had grown accustomed to in life. Why? Because I was NEVER into this casual dating thing. My personal preference.

            I just cannot understand why someone would want to “date” another person for 2,3,4 or 6 months and then move on to someone else. Then repeat the process numerous times. What’s the point?

            As I stated somewhere earlier, women divorce for numerous reasons. The fastest group that are divorcing is the Baby Boomers (born between 1946 and 1964). I do not believe these women are seeking a new man or trying to trade up. There are other factors.

            The younger group that marry and divorce after just say 5 years have different reasons too. Again, I say that in general I do NOT believe it is so simple as a woman trying to trade up, per se. I just think that many American women are just serial monogamists and serial daters. Monogamy, in my opinion, AND in the research in Bergner’s book states that monogamy just does not seem to work well for most women. Especially, sexually.

            I love the company of a woman. However, marriage is out. Also, I feel the ax might fall at any time, so I am emotionally prepared. This is my approach with women today. Ultimately, if the relationship ends, it is more than likely going to be my girlfriend who ends it. I am prepared either way.

          • @Iben,
            “Are you sure women terminate more romantic relationships than men? And IF they do,why do you think that is Jules? Maybe they are tired of holding the relationship together and do all the work without getting their needs met. Why shall women stay with men just to meet the mans needs only ? Those days are over”

            A large part is due to the bias or percieved bias in family court against males where men lose more in the divorce, lose their house, kids, etc, and so it makes them far more reluctant to file for divorce if they see it as a way to lose more. These men will probably be more likely cling on to the marriage even if they don’t love her anymore because the divorce is worse.

            It could be that women aren’t expressing themselves correctly to men, that women’s desires aren’t being communicated correctly. I hear that a lot of men are surprised when it happens, why is that? Are the men naive? Or are the women failing to communicate? I’d say it’s probably often a mix of the 2, both being at fault. Could it be that women are more picky though? Or maybe women just realize the marriage is kaput and have more courage to take action to end it (which makes sense if men fear losing far more than she does in the divorce).

            “If all women dump men just to try a new man,then how can we have lots of single men and lots of incels. Look at the numbers mathematically and you will see the flaws in this argument.”
            Because of players and high status males that have multiple partners. It is possible for more females to have access to sex than males if more males have more partners than females do. So you could have 10 women each dating a unique man, 10 men but there are only 4 men who some are dating multiple women. Man A dates women 1,2,3, man B dates Women 4,5,6,7, man C dates 8,9, and man D dates 10. The other 6 men could be single. Numbers used here are purely for illustrative purpose, not based on any study I’ve seen but that is how it is possible to have far more males single and without sex/relationship.

            I saw somewhere said that in human history we have twice as many female ancestors as male, so it sounds like 2x more females had sex to the point of having children as males did. It’s entirely possible given we’ve had many times in history that large portions of males were killed in war. It’s also possible that women in the past were FAR more picky than the men, these days it may even happen to some degree but I’ve seen no studies on it. I do know there is an issue that men and women in general in my country live more in separate areas, as in women tend to be living in the city where the more feminine jobs are (attending uni, working in hospitals, office/admin jobs, etc) and men more towards the rural areas where the masculine jobs are (mining, farming, etc).

            Another issue is population distribution per age,
            http://nationalatlas.gov/articles/people/a_gender.html
            up to age 24 or so we have more males than females, then around 25-30 the numbers equalize then change to have more females than males and it gets worse every age-year after that. So there is probably more single men in the youth brackets, and more single women in the middle age bracket, in the elderly brackets there is probably FAR more single women because the men are dropping like flies.

            Add issues like being shy to the mix, where shy men will have a harder time find a partner because men are expected to do the asking out, and other issues and you could easily get a situation where more women are dating than men. I doubt many women are jumping man to man though, my guess is that there are more women dating than men in the earlier years, and probably more men in the later years. Life sure is complicated though!

            • @Archy…

              Good points!!!

            • Hi Arrchy
              I agree with Jules,you have good arguments here. Are you a student at the university or a college ?

              I do not know how other women communicate in their marriage and long term relationship Archy. It happens in private.
              I tried to tell how I felt but since I never threatened with a divorce ,seldom cried,never smashed furnitue ,never cut myself,never got drunk,never got hysterical then my words was interpreted as not that important. He heard what I said but never saw my views as important enough. So nothing changed. But he was willing to do anything after I had decided to divorce him. And many women tell the same story,the man does not listen,but when they leave then his eyes opens,and he takes all the problems seriously and are willing to do nearly anything.But it is too late.
              Men are not naive Archy,but maybe they think women can not live without them and survive on their own?

              To be calm obviously is not the way to communicate in marriage when it is close to divorce .
              I could do it better if I tried for a second time,but I have become scared of marriage.
              Somehow I feel you will succeed in yours if you ever marry.

              • I think it’s such a complex problem that all opinions will be correct in differing ways probably.

                I am a student of google and wiki! Not in college, I just listen n pay attention a lot to what people around me say, I do a lot of reading of the comment sections (huge amounts of info in them, more so than the articles usually), I lookup what people say to see if it’s valid. Comments for instance told me about the 2x as many female ancestors as male statistic, not sure if it’s completely correct though?

                Could be that the way women are describing it is half theproblem? I’ve found women’s communication in general to be quite ambiguous at times, not as direct as males. Also found an issue where a male says a direct statement, and a woman thinks he is leaving something unsaid and she adds it in, gets angry at that, and argues with him over it! Only sometimes this happens, and not with all women or men but I just find it more common with women. It makes me think that maybe women do it to other women as well, they speak in a way that has stuff unsaid that they just both fill in mentally? Maybe they’re reading a certain body language or tone in the voice which is telling them additional information that would apply if they were female, but the males are unaware of and aren’t meaning to communicate? I’ve been extremely frustrated at times arguing with some of my female friends because of it, I sit there wondering where the hell they got that idea from? It feels like for some of us there is this great miscommunication going on, I’ve misunderstood plenty of women’s talks too with that ambiguous nature of them.

                Of course these are just personal observations, are heavily generalized and don’t apply to all people but it’s just in my personal relationships n friendships I’ve noticed that trend. An example would be her asking him how is he, He might say “I’m fine” and she thinks there is something else unsaid but quite literally he’s just fine, no problems. Or she asks what he is thinking about and he’s in the mental block mode of thought where you quite literally don’t really think of anything but sit there passively just relaxing, I do this sometimes and time flies by whilst I’m watching nature in the chair outside and I don’t pay attention at all to my internal dialogue. Now she make think it’s a passive aggressive way to say nothing, but really there is something there. Usually tone of voice gives it away but it can be hard to pick when someone says “nothing”.

                Given that our genders have some uniqueness in communication generally speaking, a LOT of arguments I think escalate over that mixup in communication. A woman may think she has told him what is wrong, that she is unhappy, but has she said it directly and clearly in a manner that he understands? Or did she say it in a pretty ambiguous way expecting him to magically read her body language? There is a big reason why it’s so common for men to complain about having to mind-read women, because I think a lot of women rely way too much on body language for communication vs men but that is just a guess.

                The studies I’ve seen seem to show men aren’t as good as women on average at reading certain body language relating to empathy, sadness, and other non-threatening behaviour, but men are usually far better at reading threatening behaviour. An example I saw was a guy was at a bar with his wife, he told her to back away and get to the side, she said something like “Why, there’s nothing wrong?” and a few moments later a big fight broke out. Seems men can spot the aggression, anger, maybe fear? and other emotions better, reading body language of potential attackers would have a lot of evolutionary benefit as men were the first in charge of defense whilst women did more of the community and peaceful stuff such as child-rearing, networking n having friendships so they probably are better able to read that style of body language better. Could just be that we unconsciously teach boys n girls to read body language differently from birth though.

                You showed me a reading empathy page, I got something like 32 or 33 out of 35, which was far above average for both men n women, this is also helpful in how I’ve learned about people but even still the way women talk can be confusing as I haven’t been around it enough as I spent more time with males in my upbringing. I can usually spot a person’s emotion pretty damn good but even get it wrong as I rely heavily on the spoken word, which is why I get pissed off like many other men when a woman says “You ALWAYS do this”, key word being always which sounds like we never do anything but that bad behaviour, which we know to be a false statement but she doesn’t actually mean to say we ALWAYS do it, but simply do it a lot. It’s shit like that which messes up communication bigtime between genders, add emotions into the mix and it makes it even more hard. What men n women both say n hear seems to sound different, men tend to be more direct, women seem to be more ambiguous?

                It’s also a great reason why in many fields of life we need a wide mix of people, since they all bring something to the table usually. The man that can spot danger, the woman that is the peacemaker, etc.

                Disclaimer: lots of generalizations, individuals may differ, some men may be more like the women (apparently I am a mix of feminine n masculine from what other women tell me as I am a “great listener”), some women more like men, etc. And it’s all just a theory of mine which may or may not be true. Would love to be corrected though!

                • Hi Archy
                  Yes you see many things clearly Archy and you write well.
                  .
                  Still I think lots of conflicts are based on difference in interests and not problems with communications.

                  The two persons share a life but want different things and have different needs.

                  And men tell us they are raised to suppress their feelings or not show their feelings and all needs. Then how can they show their feelings and deepest need to their girlfriend or wife? Emotional intimacy and closeness is difficult if you are not comfortable with being close to the other and show naked feelings .

                  If you suppress feelings you do not even know what you feel and then how can you express them I words?
                  Read all the articles here on GMP about men and suicide.

                  Women are not any better.
                  Still I do not think problems with communicating is the main cause for break ups.

                  Imagine the woman say :”let’s use the gift $10000 from mr.X to buy a new couch or redecorate the house.”
                  But the man wants to use the money for a vacation or new tools. Both have communicated clearly what they want.

                  Or Imagine Archy that the man communicate clearly that he wants sex more often,preferably every day but at least two times a week. And he tells her to be more responsive sexually in bed…….
                  And she communicates clearly that she wants him to loose weight, say 30-50lbs or 15-30 kilos.
                  Then what happens?
                  Will she initiate sex every day and he start going to the gym? Maybe. It is more likely that both feel hurt after this direct honest communication. It is not easy!

                  Clear communication does not produce change in it self. And not everything we think need to be expressed in words. Respect work wonders and direct communication can be hurtful in many instances.

                  But I am not that’s clever at relationships with men,I get run over and dominated.

                  • Depends how you suggest the losing of weight and why. If it’s focused on health alone then it may be ok. You can be direct, but still be nice..eg there’s a huge difference between saying “I am worried about your health with the excess weight” vs “You’re too fat, lose weight”. Both are very direct, but one is far more respectful.

                    I didn’t mean that lack of communication causes the breakup, but that lack of communication or miscommunication means that he doesn’t hear the problems she has correctly and may not see the seriousness of it. If my brakes are funny and not working right and say to someone the brakes feel weird they won’t realize what the problem is cept that it may be weird. If I say the brakes failed the other day, you wouldn’t drive it and the attention will be far greater because it’s a very serious issue. If he doesn’t hear the issue is serious then he may sideline it as there are many issues that are probably in his head already. If he doesn’t pay attention after you’ve been direct, then he’s an idiot and deserves a divorce.

          • ogwriter says:

            Iben Allow me to set the table.If I am in a monogamous relationship,the number of her sexual partners does matter to me.This is based on my personal and anecdotal experiences.IN America,I think women are confused and generally inclined to be disengenous about who they really are sexually and I don’t trust that.Mostly,they take very little responsibility. The puritanical model, whereby women demand to be pursued and deny their own lust and desire, places men at a distinct disadvantage in relationships. Women in their midlife are experiencing a massive hormonal changes that colors their perspective about life and even when their partner is a good one,they can desire change.I personally have little desire to get caught up in that wild mix.

            • Hi Ogwriter
              What say here makes a lot of sense to me. I understand you.
              Still I wonder about about one thing.
              What about men that had many sexual partners ?
              Do you have one explanation model for women and a different one for men? Men can also be immature ,confused or have issues around women and sexuality. Fortunately many develope out of it and settle down,but so do many women.

              All the men I have known that had exstaordinaary many women,they all had issues or came from a culture where men could marry four women, Muslims.
              I do not live in America.

  65. Hi Jules

    Let’s not quarrel . I like you. I like any man that is open to the truth about women’s sexuality.
    The fact that women’s sexuality are as strong as men’s does not makes us immoral.

    I saw you wrote about rape and race.
    Where I live the natives( white) rape women they know,their girlfriends,friends and wife. It happens inside in our homes.

    Foreigners rape women here by attacking them( us the natives) in the streets and parks.
    So with different cultures and ethnicity , rapes are different also just as homicide.

    Are you aware that here we do not have statistic about race?
    You can not look up how many percent of different races that live in a town. We do not gather data about what usually is called race or color. It so strange to see that you do that in the US.
    We have data about the countries new immigrants come from.
    So a person from South Africa will be registered as from South Africa,and he can be of African,Indian,white or any other decent.

    • @Iben….

      Hi!

      You are the best woman on GMP to have a dialogue and discourse. Seriously. You ask great questions and offer very good points. You are truly interested in moving forward with trying to improve the daily lives for both men and women.

      So, no, please do not take my banter as quarreling. One thing you will notice about me is I rarely result to name calling. Recently, I did it with A.Ka because I found his comments about me too personal for my liking. He does not know anything about me as a persona or my life. When that occurs I always mount a vigorous defense…

      While GMP is overall a good forum, there are so disappointing things about it. One I do not like “moderation.” It goes against free thinking and freedom of speech. Second, some of the female editors and feminists clearly have an agenda. Fine. Whatever. By way of example, why they continue to post content my DrNerdLove is beyond me. I don’t think most men even read his stuff anymore. But, certain editors love it. He is the ONLY contributor that consistently does NOT even bother replying to comments.

      Lastly, in life you have to take the good with the bad because you will always experience the two at various times.

      On Race: America is the ONLY nation in the history of humankind that enslaved people based on skin color alone. It is a very unique episode of slavery in the history of man. So, what has happened is race is almost like a psychosis with a lot of Americans. It is really a disease. I avoid getting into race issues because really people just become crazy! I like to stay above the nonsense.

      • Hi Jules
        Maybe the editors like dr.Nerdlove because he argues against the hypotheses alpha and beta males.

        And without moderation most debate forums degenerate and eventually has to be closed. At least that is what happens where I live. Without moderation the level of aggrestion and verbal abuse is so high that any normal person leave the website. Rember Jules,you do not see the what the moderators choose to stop. I can be far worse than you imagine. I think they do a good job.
        When a certain charming guy from the Bay Area wrote here that all a woman need to do to get sex is to have a puls,then the moderators did not shut him up. That some men see other men’s sexuality like that surprise me.
        But let’s not complain about the moderators. It is a lot of work to moderate this website.

        • Denying alpha/beta status is like denying gravity. There are clear examples of alpha people, natural leaders, warlords, people at the very top whom have dominant and even aggressive attitudes who command respect or at least command people to follow via sheer power alone. Difference is our alpha males differ from animals as usually, at least in western society, we’re monogymous for the most part. Modern society also probably puts a stop to a lot of previous ‘alpha’ behaviour such as concubines, etc as many leaders tend to stick with 1 partner whereas in the past having a plethora of mates would be quite easy and I’d guess common. Genghis Khan would be an alpha

          There are people whom are very attractive and have huge amounts of power in the dating world, people with celebrity, wealth, sexual attractiveness, the right personality will have no shortage of mates.

          Part of Dr Nerdloves success I think is that he seems to pander to the female audience, if you notice in the comments it’s usually women that agree and like him, men largely disagree (or at least what I’ve seen). Seems his advice is very feminist orientated too which rubs some the wrong way. I’ve had some issue with his advice but some is good, I have noticed that it’s mainly women whom agree with him and mainly men who reject quite a bit of his stuff. The overall lack of dialogue he has in the comments is quite saddening though.

          “When a certain charming guy from the Bay Area wrote here that all a woman need to do to get sex is to have a puls,then the moderators did not shut him up. That some men see other men’s sexuality like that surprise me.”
          Well it’s true for some, some people will have sex with nearly anyone due to desperation or simply they have low standards (which isn’t necessarily bad). I 100% agree a woman will find it far easier to find casual sex vs a man if they have similar standards. I have largely found that it is women who are gatekeepers for sex though that could simply be because men are expected to ask and hence the women are put in that position by default.

        • @Iben…

          Hello!

          “Maybe the editors like dr.Nerdlove because he argues against the hypotheses alpha and beta males.”

          Of course! Even though most men on GMP (myself included) are probably not even reading his rubbish. His last piece got one comment. So far, this piece from yesterday has only one comment. A victory for men I must add, indeed.

          He lacks credibility. He panders to certain female editors like Joanna. He lacks the common decency to reply to people who comment.

  66. I see I’m a johnny-come-lately to both this article and the comments section — but bravo Alyssa! Great essay.

  67. Consider Cilantro!

    I really do appreciate this article tremendously. I have seen a huge amount of good men negatively impacted by the misdeeds of others. Many men, including myself, have found themselves repressing their own sexuality out of a sense of misguided guilt. We feel worried and concerned regarding the amount of harassment that woman are subject to, and, as a result, feel that woman are owed the dominant role when it comes to courtship.

    Many men, many boys, become aware of harassment that their mothers and sisters endure… and this quickly turns into a situation in which a male feels worried about how their own advances may be perceived by a woman who may have also experienced something similar.

  68. Eric Rollins says:

    So, as I was reading this article all it made me think was on a subject I’ve had rattling up in my mind for months now. I’ve wanted to write on it, but haven’t had the time. So, when you take what you’ve presented and start asking about the psychological repercussions on men of this predator prey mentality there are a lot of interesting things you learn. Most of the men I know struggle with self worth, and a general fear of being alone. Most, are also too scared to ever take action to change their status.

    This is generated by fear. Fear that they will be mistaken as a predator as much as fear of being rejected. For it’s one thing to be rejected, but many men simply hold back flirting, or simply telling a girl shes beautiful or that the dress shes in today is nice, out of fear of being accused of sexually harassing the girl. Or fear of becoming known as ‘that perverted guy’ and thus further losing the capacity at what window they missee as a short lived chance at happiness.

    and I like how in this article you separate the rape culture from it. Personally my experience with other men has lead me to see them as desperate and often I’ve seen men take tricky routes to winning a girl over, or simply getting into sexual relations. I think the image thats been created is also one that can and will continue to self perpetuate itself. One of those things that was not true int he begining, but due to how the people and the media carried it, slowly became the truth.

    Either way, great article.

  69. hevendor says:

    I really like this article, as a straight cis male. However, the part about asking women just what they want to satisfy them doesn’t ring completely true when it comes to eliciting desire. I think that most straight women want to be surprised and thrown off balance by the men they might be attracted to. Asking permission for doing something like a new type of date or sexual technique or romantic approach is something which is primally perceived as ugly and desperate, most of the time.

    Many wise women say this is not true, that they want things to be clear, but really, it’s only possible after being jaded by the spontaneity of horny guys, after decades of learning. Men who are “heterosexually successful” (notwithstanding arranged marriage societies and such) generally don’t try to trick women as much as they try to be a sort of situational leader. And that can cause a lot of discomfort in women. Maybe girls should be taught that guys are generally trying to present themselves as manly, more than they are trying to subdue a helpless female.

  70. As a “cisgender”, heterosexual, “male privileged”, “white privileged” American, I can speak on behalf of the worst of the worst scum on the planet when I say that, perhaps, everything is fine? That male and female sexuality, no matter what we say or think or try to impose or destroy, is what it is and that, at its core it cannot be altered by media and social engineering? Maybe these stories we’ve been told from Anchorman and Superbad down to ancient fairy tales and creation myths aren’t dictating the way men and women should behave, but instead are modeled after the way they actually do behave? Could it be that women really do need men, for their comfort and safety? And that men need women for their love and affection? Could it be somehow possible that women’s natural disposition makes them better child caretakers than men, and that the natural disposition of men makes them better hunters and protectors than women are? Could it be that children are best raised under the parenting of a loving father and mother, who’s respective genetic qualities are designed to protect them and to teach them the ways of the world? That this isn’t a world created by male privilege, but the way the world actually is, not just for humans but for all creatures who have opposing sexualities? [By the way, I’m respectfully referring to the majority of humans (cisgendered heterosexuals), but of course I respect the individual choices and inclinations of all people, so long as they don’t harm others.] Perhaps “rape culture” is a load of bovine scatology? That men have absolutely no interest in raping women, save for the few sociopaths out there? Would it be outlandishly bold of me to suggest that the sexual attraction men feel toward women is rooted in our need to procreate as a species? And furthermore, that women’s refusal, or scrutiny towards men is also rooted in natural selection and also serves to create the best possible offspring? Could it also be that we teach our little girls not to be overly sexual in their dress and behavior because of the impact it will have on their reputation, and hence their desirability as a serious mate later on in life? The obvious answer to these questions is “Well, yeah, duh!”

    • @ Ted…

      Good comments. I am sure they well be as welcomed as the Taliban. Lol.

      “Would it be outlandishly bold of me to suggest that the sexual attraction men feel toward women is rooted in our need to procreate as a species?”

      Perhaps 1000s of years ago this might have been true. But, I think it is as simple as the need the copulate. Men (and women too) really love sex. Hell, it is very pleasureful. Maybe it is just that simple.

      Yes, “rape culture” is really a straw man.

    • I would agree with much of what you said and totally agree about the rape culture comment. Furthermore I think it’s interesting that society likes to talk about the “rape culture” but fails to mention that the vast majority, like over 70% of rapes on white women in America are perpetrated by minorities. Why because it’s racist to say something like that even when the FBI statistics substantiate it but it’s perfectly acceptable to label all men as rapists.

      • @Madman….

        “…but fails to mention that the vast majority, like over 70% of rapes on white women in America are perpetrated by minorities.”

        I have my doubts about this statistic. Most crime is within the same race/ethnicity; black on black and white on white. I find it hard believe rape is any different. In fact the typical profile of a rapist IS a white male.

        See

        http://www.towson.edu/counseling/resources/documents/MYTHSANDFACTS.pdf

        Same with serial killers; most are white males.

    • “What??? No…it’s just…impossible!” *crack* *fizzle* (sound of feminist logic shutting down). The irony is that all the women I know who really preach this stuff are in their sexual lives just as shallow as everyone else, and attracted socially to the same grunting, peacocking behavior they decry as “rapey” when holding forth in an intellectual context. It’s a form of self-hatred, to reject who you are and what you want.

      By the way, I’m in no way defending rape itself, just acknowledging that assertive/dominant men tend to win over women more often than submissive men in the majority of sexual contexts. It’s not completely bonkers to assume that gender roles differ slightly, as evidenced across the animal kingdom, and that evolutionarily-etched impulses, more than parenting strategies or TV brainwashing, dictates the vast majority of our behavior, as much as we wished it wouldn’t. Again, this does not imply that “no means no” is moot. It’s just that there is a spectrum of behavior, and more dominant behavior tends to serve men’s sexual and relationship goals, more often than not. They didn’t sell 70 million “Fifty Shades of Grey” books to women just because of cultural-normative brainwashing tactics.

    • Ted. The heap of rhetorical questions you delivered in chunk-of-paragraph, that I can only guess was some form of stream of consciousness, is eerily reminiscent of a Rockwellian fantasy. So let me get this straight:

      We live in the natural world, where children are best raised with fathers and mothers, who will “teach them the ways of the world” [if only]. Girls reputations are naturally protected for their future mate. Men don’t have an interest in rape, only sociopaths do. Rape culture is a myth. Women [49.998% of world population] are natural caretakers. Men [50.002% of world population] are natural hunters and protectors. Women need men for comfort and safety. Men need women for love and affection. Anchorman and Superbad, and ancient fairytales are modeled after real people’s behavior. Social engineering and media cannot alter male and female sexuality at its very core. The world as we see it was not created by male privilege. That is just the way it is.

      I see what you did there. Rhetorical questions are sooo persuasive. But when they’re converted into statements, it reveals the simplicity of those ideas, doesn’t it? Those eery, Rockwellian ideas. *shudders*

      The ideas you’ve shared right there do little to reflect any of the diversity that actually exists in the real world. It’s a heteronormative fantasy.

      You’re right that no amount of social engineering or media will change heterosexual cisgender male and female sexuality. Obviously nothing is going to stop the urge for ladies and gentleman to have P-to-V fun time. But you can’t ignore the sociological complexity surrounding those interactions. We can educate people to improve the ill perception of male sexuality, among some of the other issues you casually dismiss.

      Wonderful news everyone!…

      Just because something is, doesn’t mean it should be. “Oh, but it *is* because it’s all in our nature,” you cry.

      Nope. Because, as human beings, we have grown infinite layers of complexity to our sociological strata. Among them is the ability to reflect on our behavior and start thoughtful dialog about how to improve it. This means departing from our “natural” human tendency toward racism, sexism, ageism and other lovely -isms.

  71. Amazing. This article starts out seeing the light, and then devolves back into the old tired rape culture spiel. Here’s an idea: how do you think male sexuality gets marginalized and demonized? Do you suppose it’s because men’s issues are given equal importance as women’s? Research shows that women feature *30* times more as victims in headlines than men (Canadian newspapers, 1989-1992, from a Warren Farrel book), which most certainly doesn’t match actual crime. How do you think that shapes people’s perception of what’s going on in the world?

    Women are privileged to be seen as unprivileged and worthy of protection. It’s as simple as that. That’s why you get “rape culture”… a woman is supposed to remain unsullied, and it’s the men around her who have to jump in and defend her honor as she occupies herself with the finer things in life, the things you see in women’s magazines and not men’s. Like shopping, fashion, dieting and the unbridled woman’s spirit. Some become queens, but most stay princesses.

  72. I think the biggest problem is that women are dictating to men what they need to do to be better men. I think that is something that we have seen in recent years, women telling men we are too masculine or we are not masculine enough, that we aren’t sexy, that we aren’t this or that. I know it probably goes both way’s but in addition women think of men as disposable commodities for the most part, this article highlights that. Mother’s are teaching boy’s how to be the men they want them to be and not allowing them to grow up to be the men they need to be. It’s time for men to stop letting women dictate who they are and it’s time for men to stop whining about women not liking who they are. If you stop giving people the power to dictate who you are then their only options are to love you or hate you and if a woman doesn’t love you for who you truly are then she’s not worth your time anyways.

    • I think that is something that we have seen in recent years, women telling men we are too masculine or we are not masculine enough, that we aren’t sexy, that we aren’t this or that.
      Recent? I wager it goes back farther than that but now it is more pronounced.

    • @Madman

      “If you stop giving people the power to dictate who you are then their only options are to love you or hate you and if a woman doesn’t love you for who you truly are then she’s not worth your time anyways.

      Agree 100%.

      In all honesty a lot of the women giving this advice do not believe it themselves, let alone practice it.

    • Hi Madman

      Can you explain why you mean women think of men as disposable commodities for the most part.
      Do you think of divorce?
      Or do women seduce men sexually,use them and never call after the men was lured into sex?

      • I think that for most part men are seen by many women as something easily replaceable. Look at our approach to the military young men are sent to die on a daily basis and we as a society struggle to put women in combat situations because it’s to traumatic to see women die. I’m not saying that’s not true but in my opinion it’s equally tragic regardless of who dies. Also look at dating and relationships, men are relegated to the status of second class citizens, they are forced to take the initiative and risk rejection. Then in relationships the vast majority of times they are the ones who decide whether a relationships survives or perishes. Men are seen by many women, I believe on a subconscious level, as a dime a dozen because they do receive so much attention from men because our society has taught us that’s the way it is. I’m not saying all those things are wrong either, especially dating structure just explaining where men are relegated to a status of being disposable.

        • Hi Madman
          You say:
          ✺”. Then in relationships the vast majority of times they are the ones who decide whether
          a relationships survives or perishes.”✺

          Is this facts?
          I have never heard about this,but then I do not live in America.

          What happens if you try online dating with a profile that say you look for a woman that value equality of the sexes, and can prove this by inviting you out.
          This can be expressed better,but somehow you get the idea.

          Why not challenge women online. You might get some surprise if you are 100% honest in your profile and have good photos.

        • I know many women who feel that they are disposable in the dating game because of the amount of times they have been used in an uncaring way by men and then dropped suddenly. Everything from media to general attitudes about dating just propels this fear that women are replaceable. I don’t feel the same sense with men, but I am not a man so I can’t really say. From this side though, it’s looking pretty grim.

          • @Liz…

            Women initiate 70% of all divorces. Women also terminate most other relationships, be they long term or short term.

            Just listen to the number of women who have done one night stands and said they never wanted to hear from the guy again. One woman even posted on GMP that the reason she preferred bad boys to nice guys is nice guys want a relationship while she merely wanted good sex. Bad boys are better able to deal with this as opposed to nice guys who I suppose want seconds.

            Now, you see the male perspective.

            • Hi Jules
              Are you sure women terminate more romantic relationships than men? And IF they do,why do you think that is Jules? Maybe they are tired of holding the relationship together and do all the work without getting their needs met. Why shall women stay with men just to meet the mans needs only ? Those days are over.

              Women initiate divorce more often,and why not if you suffer for years. what it is the point being married if you are miserable? And if some women marry just to exploit men economically then I am sorry about that,but I refuse to believe that is what happens in every marriage .

              I do not think you have data that say women dump men more often than men dump women after they finally have sex. Lots if women experience the silent disappearance of a man after they had sex for the first time. He is no longer interested in her.( I am not speaking of one night stands. )

              Sorry Jules,but few women use their time sleeping with as many men as possible ,just to get a high ” number”. But some men actually do exactly that,so that they can brag about their conquests afterwards.
              Fortunately most men are not like that,but PUA does exist and all they want is to get laid and then move on.

  73. I appreciated this piece – thank you for writing

  74. Hi Tim
    (I can not find you.)

    You write :
    ✺”If men could obtain sex as easily as women, they would be in a much better position to decide whether they really want to marry or not. ……….
    the fact I abhor marriage and commitment……………
    I repeat: A man who can easily obtain sex and physical intimacy is in a much better position to decide whether he really wants marriage/LTR or not, than a man who cant.”✺

    Tim as long as you abhor marriage and commitment it best to wait.
    My question is why not fall in love Tim? Just let it happen.

    I do understand you are in a difficult situation.
    Life is unfair!
    But as long as you think emotional commitment to another person is a terrible thing then maybe you have other issues with women and that is why they rejects you.
    Women are not mind readers but we can have pretty good intuition and see men’s intent.

    Do not fear commitment Tim. It can be very pleasant.
    And men that fear commitment will end up as lonely old men. Marriage is a serious thing ,but if you can not even offer a young woman commitment of any kind then why shall she give herself to you,make love to you and give you the intimacy you long for?

    Do you dream of a long series of one night stands ?
    In spite of my hard words I do understand what you say Tim. But often in life one has to be pragmatic.

    Are you thinking of traveling abroad to look for a wife?

  75. I’m curious. How are are women taught that male genitalia are gross? Major props to them for overcoming it. That’s not something that straight men have to do.

  76. Good article. Thank you very much for saying what I’ve been feeling for a while now.

  77. N.C. Hernandez says:

    I just need to say a few words against the fallacy of appeal to nature. It’s never a good idea to conflate the “natural” with the good. Rape, like disease, has been with us for our entire history and is ubiquitous among countless species, but it’s still something we should try our hardest to get rid of.

    • Rape is not in fact universal in human history nor across cultures. I highly recommend reading this study to learn of cultures in which the closest thing to rape was an unwanted checking-out:

      Watson-Franke, M.-B. (2002). A world in which women move freely without fear of men: An anthropological perspective on rape. Women’s Studies International Forum, 25(6), 599–606. doi:10.1016/S0277-5395(02)00338-2

  78. Rick Kowal says:

    What a smart, sensitive, and well-written article from a person who has obviously paid attention to things. I started this article assuming I’d hate it, but it turned out to be such a pleasant surprise. Kudos to you Alyssa. I hope your voice keeps getting louder and louder until everyone has to pay attention.

  79. YES! Thank you for seeing the distinctions of what most men do, and some do, and being an advocate, for both men and women. Regardless of the comments here, I appreciate what you are saying as a lot of truth. Sometimes men have a harder time with these discussion. But your take on this is still somewhat gender biased. Consider number 2, and frame it in terms of men as well. Women can be predatory, too, if you want to call it that. It’s just as real, which you point out in your article. Just food for thought. “2. Ask men what they want, and listen to what they tell you. We are all different; we all want different things from the women in our life. Rather than getting lost in a frustrated guessing game, ask us. Listen to our answers. Tell us what you want, with words, and listen to our responses. Whether it’s sex or any other relationship, the best way to not be seen as predatory is to not act like a predator. And that means communication, not acquisition. Which, by the way, is also called consent. “Yes” is the safest word of all.”

  80. While I agree with the five points suggested by the author, and that some men need such pointers, this cisgender male and his equally cis male friends do not need them. We’re good folk, thankfully, and we don’t view sexuality in a predator/prey thing.

    I’d suggest one way to help is to stop labeling it “male sexuality” and instead labeling it “being a dick”. Cisgender males definitely have some different perspectives when it comes to sexuality, but would you consider rape as part of sexuality or as part of violence? The dumbass things some guys do that get attention in this article are part of aggression, not sexuality. Males shouldn’t be feared; just egotistical, violent assholes, who come in many genders and flavors.

  81. “You do not need to trick us into sex, in fact, you shouldn’t.”

    It doesn’t seem to occur to the sex-positive crowd that the part of this that constructed male sexuality likes isn’t necessarily the ‘sex’ but the dominance display involved in the ‘trick’.

    Why would they stop trying to trick you into sex, when that domination is what the predator sexuality wants? To the predator sexuality, sex isn’t any form of bonding experience and thus they could achieve the orgasm aspect simply by rubbing one out. The point is not the orgasm, it is not the human connection, it is point scoring and dominance display.

    You seem to be confusing ‘male sexuality’ as an abstract ideal totally untouched by this immiserating culture, from the reality of our current condition in which male sexuality has been constructed by that immiserating culture and internalised so that it *does* immiserate. Reality as lived under dominant culture is not an ideal reality in which our true natures can flourish freely or have flourished freely; it is constructed heavily by our political enemies. The proletariat do not possess class consciousness, women can be racist, POC can be misogynistic, and males tend to behave in line with their socialisation into weapons by patriarchy. Reality is shit but we need to live in it in order to deal with it. You can’t pretend male sexuality as it is currently constructed and imposed is anything other than demonic, and although it is important to note that this is not the natural or inevitable male sexuality, it *is* the dominant male sexuality *at this time*.

  82. Benjamin says:

    This is sooooo good Alyssa! Personally I absorbed and internalized the shaming of male sexuality. It has taken me a decade, and running, to heal from that. Some guys kind of brush it off, but it has nearly ruined my life and my marriage. I was blessed enough to find spouse that loves men, and sex, and male sexuality, and we’ve worked through it. It makes me cry now to see how young people are brainwashed and we have a culture full of people afraid to feel pleasure and connect with each other. And we wonder why we’re so unhappy and addicted to substances and media? It’s because we’re cut off from one of the highest forms of physical and emotional pleasure.

  83. Thanks for the article, Alyssa…I’ve had written something similar to this a long time ago on my blog (http://www.moreperfect.org) but for the fact, as you point out, that men can’t really talk about sexuality without being classified as a pervert. 🙂

    One nit: at the end of the article, you give advice on how to move forward/change the paradigm. But, you point all of your advice toward men. Don’t women share in the shaping of this culture of demonization? Shouldn’t women be asked to change too? The end of the article seemed to contradict the tone of the article itself.

    But, from one Seattleite to another, thanks!

    • Alyssa Royse says:

      It’s not a nit-pick Tim, but it’s becoming a pet-peeve of mine. 😉 I didn’t include tips for women because I wasn’t writing for women, I was writing for men, on a site with MEN in the title, and a readership that is primarily male. Ever time I write, I write for an audience, sometimes multiple, and I tailor my thoughts towards them. Clearly, this time, that blew up for a lot of people because it is the #1 complaint about this piece. I won’t be doing that again! 😉

      • You didn’t write for men, you wrote AT men. Consider your first solution… on an article about one of the most brutal and harmful sexist prejudices of the modern age your first “solution” to the problem is to ask men if they’ve apologized for their gender recently, and if they’re doing it often enough and loud enough. The next four are nothing more than telling men their thoughts, feelings, and opinions don’t count and they need to submit to women.

        That’s not speaking out against the demonization of male sexuality, that’s perpetuating it along with a healthy dose of Female Superiority.

      • @Alyssa –
        I think the reason this raised so many red flags is because right before your list you ask “how can we all work together?” and since you’re a lady it seems natural that you’re talking about men and women working together. It seems like there is a lot of work to be done on the part of women to help reverse this cultural tendency, too.

      • I think the reason for people’s desire for advice pointed toward women is that this article, in many ways, is an article that reads as though it is pointed toward women and helping them realize they need to reevaluate how they view male sexuality. Don’t get me wrong, it is VERY valuable and accessible for any human being to read, but I do think it is especially valuable for women to understand the filter through which they receive the narrative of male sexuality.

        regardless, fantastic article. I believe everyone should read this. The pop culture version of male sexuality has become so pervasive that many women even embrace it and are desirous of men who essentially beat their chests and pee on things as a sort of courtship.

  84. Daniel Mirante says:

    This article didn’t talk about male sexuality, but female preference.

    • I agree, Daniel, that it seems to be more of a female preference article. I do agree with some of the things that Alyssa stated. But, every point, goes both ways…I wonder why these articles are always about violence against women and whatever against women….what about these things that do genuinely happen to males as well???

      I don’t think that “media” in any form should separate the sexes as I think that’s more damaging. We are all people, and yes, we all like sex. I think these points should be based more on what each other needs, rather than just one side. A relationship goes both ways…give and take by both the male and female. It’s not all about pleasing the woman..it’s about pleasing each other.

      • Madman Defarge says:

        “But, every point, goes both ways”

        Really? Are boys taught to think of themselves as prey? Are girls taught to think of themselves as predators? We all want social equality, but we’re not going to get it by simply pretending that we already have it. An honest assessment of the status quo is necessary if we are to go about changing it.

        “I wonder why these articles are always about violence against women and whatever against women”

        Because the rape culture is primarily aimed at women. The vast majority of sexual violence in our society is perpetrated by men against women. Ditto for relationship violence in general. You seem to want to talk about this in the abstract. This is a mistake- social issues need to be addressed in the actual social context in which they exist.

        And men most certainly suffer from the social paradigm described in this article as well- on the occasions that men are actually abused by women, their shame is multiplied by the inversion of the expected predator-prey social role and society at large treats it as a joke. But for the most part, what we get is splash damage from a weapon that isn’t primarily aimed at us.

        • While I realize most folks won’t see this as serious, the status quo DOES have harmful effects against men:

          – Men are constantly being rejected. It’s apparently our job to shoulder hurt emotions. We have to “not take it personally” when we approach a woman, and without even a second thought, are rejected. And it comes in so many forms, not all of which are “sorry, I have a boyfriend” or “you seem nice, but I’m not interested.” Sure, there are men who get butt-hurt just because you politely say no. But there are SO MANY women who treat men as though they have no feelings whatsoever. And yet… with all of the new “freedom” we have, if you don’t try and meet perfect strangers, where are your options? Women at work? They may accuse you of harassment, unless of course they are interested. And don’t think it isn’t confusing when one women thinks she’s being harassed, but you find another woman might think you weren’t trying hard enough.

          – Stringing along – how many men out there have had a women make like she’s into you, but you’re her backup? She really wants another guy, but can’t quite hook him, so she hangs out with you for all the dating perks, but has no intention of having a relationship, even though you might want one, and she knows it.

          – Dating for food – thankfully, I’ve mostly avoided this, but it’s definitely happened. And women wonder why men only want to go for coffee. I don’t even know you yet, but I should take you out to dinner? No ma’am. I had one women convince me of that, we went to a place she selected and I spent over $100. Then she “decided” she wasn’t interested. Well, I could have accomplished the same goal for $10 or less, but apparently I wasn’t being “generous” enough. I call BS.

          – Sexual about face – now I’ll be careful here; everyone has the right to change their minds about sex. And dudes who try to force themselves on a woman who says no are at minimum jerks, and may be criminals (BTW, that goes for women, too. I’ve had it happen). However, women, there are some facts to consider when you go to a guy’s place (his place, not his car or a hotel room), things start getting hot and heavy, and then something abruptly changes your mind. Did he say the wrong thing? Did you notice a weird photo on the wall? Frankly, if something that small could change your mind, maybe you should get to know the guy more before going into his bedroom. That goes both ways, by the way; it applies to men, too. But the point is, it seems like women are more easily able to make that about face. The colloquial blue balls is a real thing, though. Even when sex isn’t actually going to happen, I know for me personally that area can be in real pain without release. Some men may be different. Point being, some teasing is ok, but there are actual physical consequences for men, that happen all the time, that are discredited.

          The bottom line: nothing justifies crimes against anyone, women included. However, not all men are as sophisticated as others, and when a lot of these things happen numerous times, the frustration builds up.

          To combat this, women can do the following:

          1) Communicate: if a man asks you out, it’s okay to assume it’s a date. If you’re not interested, let the guy know. And yes, he might try and save face and put it on you. Big deal. Get over it (that’s what men are supposed to do, right?).

          2) Be polite to a strange man: yes, I get it, you get hit on all the time, and some men are dicks about it. So what? At least start with “I’m sorry, you might be nice, but I’m – not interested, have a boyfriend, waiting for my date.” Give the guy a chance to be a dick before you eviscerate him.

          3) Ask some guys out: and not just the hot ones. I’m not saying go for the ugliest guy. That’s not practical, and I’m not a hypocrite. But if a guy is decent looking, and has some other qualities you find attractive, don’t wait for him to ask you out. At minimum, be a little obvious sometimes. “You should probably ask me out” is a phrase that ought to enter every woman’s vocabulary who thinks equality is important.

          4) Know what you want sexually from an evening, and stick to it. If you know you’re not going to have sex that night, don’t push the envelope. Sure, the guy may try something, and you have every right to say no. But if you go grabbing for his junk and you KNOW you don’t want to have sex that night, that’s not playful teasing. It’s just plain cruel. On the other hand, unless you find out you’re related to a guy, if you were so into him you were going to have sex, take a moment before changing your mind, to make sure it’s the big deal you think it is. If it is, please, by all means: EXPLAIN YOURSELF. It’s bad enough thinking you’ve found someone who likes you and wants to be with you, only to have them abruptly change their mind. At minimum, after you leave, be honest and TELL THE GUY WHAT HAPPENED. At the very least, they might learn something not to do in future, and won’t get angry and confused. And yes, men can do this for women, too (I know I do).

          • Hi Eliot
            Women do not have to explain why they choose not to make love to you.
            And maybe they simply saw you as you really are ?

            You expects women to make love to before you have a relationship. Why should they?
            And they see that, and this indicate that you may not be good boyfriend material,not husband material either.
            And for some reason you do not have what it takes make them want a sexual happening with you without any relationship.

            And about blue balls. Why not leave for the bathroom and help yourself? It is not her responsibility.

            • @Iben

              Really? A woman has NO responsibility to explain why she changes her mind?

              If I make plans to go to dinner with you, and I cancel, I have to explain that, don’t I? At the very least, I should acknowledge that I’ve changed my mind. But you seem to think that if I invite a women into my home, she initiates or participates in romantic activities (making out, heavy petting, etc.) says how much she “wants me”, then, suddenly, changes her mind with no explanation, that that’s perfectly fine? To me, that’s rude. If it were any other activity, it would be rude. But apparently, because women are “equal” they get to be rude?

              And as for your accusation of me expecting a woman to make love before a relationship – it’s not me, it’s them! Very often, they want sex from me BEFORE I’M READY. And if I don’t perform as they expect, they think I am not attracted to them. I may explain that I need to get to know them better, but once you don’t live up to their expectations, that’s it, a man doesn’t get another chance. Or else, as abruptly as they were into it, they change their minds. Of course, this isn’t all women. I’ve had five long term girlfriends and over 15 people I’ve dated for a few months. But there have been scores of women who simply don’t seem to know what they want or what they’re doing.

              I am tired of people assuming all men are the same. I’m also tired of people ignoring men’s feelings just because they don’t align with women’s.

              Finally, I have a friend who was dating a girl, and they had gone out a few times, and never had sex. She stayed overnight, after they had made out for a while. After she fell asleep, since he know they weren’t going to have sex, but he was feeling uncomfortable by being turned on by her, he went to the bathroom to “help himself”. Guess what? She got up to use the restroom, found him, and decided he was disgusting. They broke up the next day.

              Your arguments rely on stereotypes which this article is at least making an effort to dispel.

              The real problem is that, now that all of the rules from the past no longer are rules, as a man, I not only have to try and anticipate the old rules, but I also now have to anticipate the new ones. In the meantime, women don’t take the initiative or responsibility. They’re too afraid of rejection, and too afraid to be seen as mean, or else they over-react to every man and are insulting if he approaches her. This includes online, by the way, where there is little if any danger. For my part, the few times that a woman online has sent me a message, I review her profile, and if I’m not interested, I am very diplomatic and polite. You’d be amazed at the BS women can throw out there, though.

              But of course, you have no issues with the current situation, so your perspective is perfect.

            • @Iben

              “And about blue balls. Why not leave for the bathroom and help yourself? It is not her responsibility.”

              It’s a shit thing to do to be all over someone and abruptly stop without a good reason. I wouldn’t be all over a woman and abruptly stop unless I am scared, feel it’s gone too far, or abou to throw up (if drinking). Respecting your partner would be to say “sorry, I’m not feeling comfortable with more at the moment”. No one has the obligation to do what the other wants but it is a good idea to ensure you don’t get someone so turned on if you don’t have intentions of more. Rarely someone may do this simply to mess with someone. It is frustrating for a man or woman to be blueballing and have an abrupt change from their partner who doesn’t say what’s going on. I personally am ok with it, I prefer they talk to me and let me know if something is wrong because not knowing would be frustrating. I’d much rather not do anything at all if they are just gonna get my sex drive peaked and then stop. Do we want people to be rude?

              “Women do not have to explain why they choose not to make love to you.”
              It is pretty cowardly though if they are at that stage.

    • you’re right. it talked about “demonizing male sexuality.”……

    • Women and men can be *allies* of one another; we can *speak up* for one another; but we cannot *speak for* one another.

      Make sense?

      Rationale:
      Speaking as a man, who has heard a number of women (intelligent & knowledgeable & competent) speak about men, or on behalf of men…
      … I think it makes perfect sense that Alyssa is speaking from *her* experience — which happens to be as a woman. She certainly couldn’t speak from her experience as a man, not having been one (that I’m aware of).
      … And what’s more: I wouldn’t want her to try to do so….. any more than she (or any other woman) would want me to try to *speak for* women.
      I can certainly advocate for, and, in the absence of other women being present (e.g., all men in a room), I could speak *on behalf* of some women’s experience that I personally know of, but I can never *replace* the voice of a woman — any more than she could replace the voice of a man.

      • P.S.
        This article had a very specific topic, scope and purpose.
        I think she did an excellent job of addressing that topic, within its defined scope, and of achieving the purpose she set out to talk about.
        Any further broadening of scope, or other cases, would have lengthened the article considerably.
        I’d be happy to read other articles she’s written which address the points others have brought up.

    • I loved this article, right up until the last section where it utterly contradicted itself. The article points to a device in society that demonizes men, but all the advice at the end seems to be aimed towards ways MEN can stop being threatening and how men can solve the problem. How about how WOMEN can help solve the problem?
      If you want to stop this “predator-prey” relationship where men are the aggressors then how about you approach me from time to time. Do you think men don’t suffer anxiety in approaching women? Especially after being shot down time and again. It’s exhausting, it’s frustrating and at times it can seem not only futile but disheartening and depressing. If you want to break that predator-prey relationship then break it by quitting acting like prey. Be the aggressor for a change. Approach me and tell me I’m beautiful, because I need to hear it as badly as you do.

  85. I like what you are trying to do here, and I approve.

    However, there are a few problems with your ideas, so here goes:

    1) I know that many women have been assaulted, many have been raped. Many have been abused or tortured by the system. But the term “rape culture” doesn’t really apply to most men, and yet we are lumped into it. Culture wasn’t created by us. It was created by those in charge, which amount to a small handful, and to the extent that some men play into it, by their parents. There may be a culture of sexual ignorance. There may be a culture unfair to women, and I accept that. But using the term “rape culture” perpetuates the idea that men are predators, which you expressly are trying to counter.

    2) I’ve never used a line, or even picked up a strange girl at a bar. I probably could be accused of “tricking a girl” by being someone I’m not, because someone told me this or that way of being was what a woman wanted. But it’s disingenuous to suggest that most women can actually express what they want. That’s not an accusation – I’m convinced that it’s a matter of society embarrassing women out of it. Moreover, even knowing that I want to express what I want, I have trouble as a man doing it, and supposedly men are “free to be sexual”. The truth is, if you ask a woman what she wants, she’ll say someone kind, thoughtful, who asks what she wants. Ah, but do that, and you’ll get rejected time and again. Unfortunately, whether by nature or nurture, the vast majority of women ask for the opposite of what they want, and very much don’t want to actually discuss sex or relationships. How do I know? I’ve seen the look on a woman’s face numerous times as soon as I’ve expressed even the slightest insecurity about myself or my relationship with her. I can see the exact moment when she’s no longer attracted to me because I’ve been honest about my pitfalls. And I’m not talking about a first date. I’m talking a few dates in, or even a few months in. The point being, women have to be honest about what they want, and should have a little sympathy when a little extra info comes out before they’re ready for it, if they truly want someone who shares their feelings.

    3) On the topic of feelings, it’s really easy for a woman (cis woman? I don’t understand how to use that) to say “don’t take it personally”. Women are wimps by and large when it comes to dating. When a man decides to put himself out there and talk to a woman, unless he’s a sociopath or a player, he has to draw on all his confidence to approach. Sure, rejection is definitely part of the world, and an honest “you seem nice, but I’m not interested” should be taken as intended. But many women are rude and horrible, and it’s hard not to take it personally. Heck, I’ve had more than one women string me along by calling or texting on the night of a date “oh, I’m going to be a little later, I have something at work” for the better part of four hours, and then finally cancel at midnight. Turns out, on at least one occasion, I have proof she was totally lying, and her excuse? Guys have stood me up in the past. Seriously? Such a dick move. talk about taking it personally. And I’m supposed to understand to “not take it personally”? I know it’s not about me. But stuff like that happens so often, it’s hard to think it’s them and not me. More to the point – men have feelings, too, and until women start taking the lead at least half the time, cut us a little slack if we’re confused and hurt after the thousandth rejection. It should get easier. For most of us, it doesn’t.

  86. Me Supertypo
    There are some Scandinavians here,and we understand Danish.
    FlyingKal.,Tamen, Iben.

  87. ATP33Toronto says:

    Thank you for this great article. It made me think of something related & important too (which perhaps has been addressed elsewhere, in the comments or your other articles), ie how it has made some of us / society view female sexuality – RE: where you mention teaching girls to say yes to pleasure (& also to say no & set healthy boundaries, etc.) and how we have been teaching our kids to repress female sexuality … I in my mind edited a few of your sentences as follows: “This way of looking at male [or any] sexuality conflates sexuality with predation. It means that [she/] he who posseses sexuality is assumed a predator.” “It is this line of thinking that allows people to say, “boys will be boys” [or that girls who appreciate / enjoy pleasure, or are sexual, sexually empowered and/or assertive are ‘sluts’ and/or less worthy, etc.].” “I am sorry that generations of lazy storytelling and bad media have perpetuated … the idea that women’s purity is what can redeem the nastiness of male sexuality. It is wrong for both men and women alike.” [& in these cases has lead some/many of us in society to devalue people & sex & lose sight of the inherent sacredness of it in any (consensual) act.]

  88. Matt Anderson says:

    This is an extraordinary article, up until the recommendations section, which ends up being a disappointing reaffirmation of all the cultural assumptions you wrote this piece to decry.

    “However, they are not lures, and we are not fish. Do not, ever, show them to us unless we ask for it. The bonus for you is that when we ask for it, it’s because we want it, so you aren’t really risking rejection at that point, Mr. Cilantro.”

    Really? Isn’t that just dripping with all the assumptions that you just told us were unmerited? Men are the pursuers, women are the natural acceptors/rejectors?

    Flip it and see if it sounds weird to you just to be sure: “Women should never show their bodies to us unless we ask for it. The bonus for you is that if we ask for it, it’s because we want it, so you aren’t really risking rejection at that point, Mrs. Cilantro.”

    I’d suggest a thoughtful rewrite.

  89. Alex Reynard says:

    Wait…WHAT!?!?

    I read through this article, incredibly happy to see that this topic was being acknowledged, and then I got to the tips that men can do. You could hear the sound of a balloon bursting. You’re going to describe a culture that views men as little more than animals, and then ONLY tell MEN what they can do about it!?

    It’s not the tips themselves I mind (though I could certainly go on a rant about how much they boil down to ‘allow the other person to define you and don’t call them out for their prejudice’), but the lack of tips for women. You say “How can WE work together” but then you only give instructions for one side!? Would you write an article about society’s irrational fear of blacks and then conclude it with tips on how black people can appear less threatening? “Black people, you need to be an ally: talk about how horrible black-on-white crime is. Listen and understand why white people fear that you will rape and kill them. Don’t try to trick us into liking you. Don’t take it personally when someone hates you based on stereotypes. And love yourself! Love your beautiful black body! …Just be sure to keep it away from us if we feel uncomfortable.”

    I’m sorry, but when a group is being unfairly stereotyped, you don’t just tell them how to change public perception; you tell the public to wake up and stop dehumanizing that group. This article as as offensive as anything I’ve seen in a long, long time.

    • @Alex Reynard….

      Ditto!!!!!

      • Alyssa Royse says:

        I’ve said this before, but this comment thread is so long, I’ll say it again because who can read them ALL. I am sorry I didn’t include tips for women, but I wrote this article for MEN on a site called The Good MEN Project. I wasn’t writing for women. The audience for this site is not women. I write articles for women on sites that are aimed at women. I promise. This article was written for men. Our readership here is mostly men, our articles are written entirely for men.

  90. I think you make #3 sound far easier than it is. Part of the problem you’re describing, that men are viewed as predators, is that women are taught that they /should/ be chased, that they are the party that is pursued and ultimately are the ones to say yes or no. How, then, can men let women in when repeatedly women refuse to go anywhere without the lure?

    Don’t get me wrong, I agree that it’s terrible. I’m an awkward, shy guy around girls that I’m interested in, and in my mind I can’t help but feel angry, that it’s unfair that I am expected to be the one initiating the relationship, as I stammer through an introduction to a pretty girl. The best relationship I’ve had started because /she/ came after /me/.

    I think there’s a communication barrier on both sides: women are afraid to have a frank conversation about what they want because, well, it seems kind of slutty for a girl to simply say she does want sex, especially if that’s the only thing she wants; the last girlfriend I had refused to have sex the first couple of weeks of our relationship purely because she didn’t want to seem like “that kind of girl.” Don’t get me wrong, I completely respected her decision then and now, especially because she was very open about that decision and why she made it. My problem is not with that decision but with the culture that made her want to make it.

    What I mean to say is, I know women hate pick-up lines and being whistled at. But I think a lot of guys feel like we don’t have any other options because we aren’t presented with any.

  91. This article started off so well. At first, it was dissecting what society thinks when a straight man writes an article on sexuality or women or gender roles or whatever other connected topic and how it’s hard to accept that because of the negative connections automatically made toward those men. The article begins by saying that assumption is unfair and that the majority of men aren’t the predators (sexually or otherwise) they’re made out to be. Alyssa Royse mentions how it’s impossible for straight men to write about sex without being seen as douchebags because they’re more often than not seen as a threat, unbridled pursuers, and predators when those descriptions and stereotypes don’t fit the majority of them. However, the article then goes on to spend the last third of the article telling men how they need to change their behavior so this thought process in society doesn’t happen. How does that advice not negate the rest of the article’s intent? How does the writer not see how that message mirrors the idea of teaching women not be assaulted and harassed instead of teaching men not assault and harass them? How do you spend the first two-thirds of an article discussing how straight men who wish to talk about sex or gender roles are often unfairly maligned and put in defensive places and then spend the last third of the article telling those same men what they can do so they’re not treated unfairly?

    The article should’ve skipped the entire numbered section that lists steps men can take to better themselves, and it would’ve hit its defined mark much better. Instead, that section ended up proving the article’s own point.

    • Jarek H says:

      Exactly. I 99% agree with this article. The only problem I have is that the author seems to put all the pressure on men to “prove” that they do not fall into this stereotype – and no pressure on women to listen to cis-hetero-males when they talk about sexuality without presuming they are a douche-bag.

  92. Daniel Mirante says:

    This article didn’t really get to the point of ‘what IS the danger’ and who’s agenda is driving this demonisation. Bit of a missed opportunity, and actually fell back on ‘dating advice’ which had already assumed the worst, or was talking to some sort of denomination or stereotype unlikely to read this article or be able to follow its advice..

  93. Hi Jules
    I will read them all.
    You asked me why women don’t marry mr.good sex.

    If I knew all the facts and theories about how we choose partners then I would write about it and take a phd . It is complicated. Very complicated Jules.
    I can not answer you question,only make some guesses.

    As long as you think the hypotheses that say women want only sex with with alpha males, but prefer to marry beta males is a good explanation, I think you look to the wrong books and explanations.

    I hate all this silly talk about alpha males,it must be hypotheses produced by men that feel superior to other men in some ways.
    Life is more complicated.

  94. A guy here wrote against PUA. He says it is misogynistic.

    I want to ask him how are women harmed by PUA’s?

  95. Hi Iben

    Hope you had a great vacation.

    A while back you talked about sexual dynamics in Scandinavian countries. You said that since female sexuality is not suppressed in those countries (nowhere as much as it is in America) women are often the aggressors in sex and men can expect to be pursued sexually and are often the ones refusing women.

    I just wanted to know the opinion of some Scandinavian people regarding this so I posted this question on a Swedish forum.

    I must say that my skepticism turned out to be true. Most people are saying the same thing that I feared: That perhaps Scandinavian women do take the initiative in sex a lot, but they only pursue good looking / attractive men. The average Scandinavian guy cannot expect to be approached for sex. It is not easier for men to get laid in Scandinavian countries.

    This rings true with my belief that its not the sexual suppression of women that causes the dynamics we see in the sexual marketplace. Its simply that women are attracted to fewer men. And this is (unfortunately for men) universally true. There will never be a place on earth not in a 1000 years, not after undoing all the effects of suppression, culture, patriarchy, fear of men, etc; where, say, an average looking man will get 100 offers for sex from women in a week. Sorry for sounding prophetic.

    http://www.thelocal.se/discuss/index.php?showtopic=59522

    • Hi Tim
      My compliments!
      This was an interesting and creative move. You asked some Swedish man. Smart Tim.
      If women only want good looking or shall we say sexy men,then we all are animals . It makes me a bit sad Tim.

      But read Joseph’s comment . I think he is right. Some men are more clever attracting sexual partners than others and that is not nesseceraly with good looks. When women can choose who will they mate with?
      Who will they have a sexual happening with?

      But do your women friends get 100 offers of sex a week?
      Who told you women get offers of sex? Are you talking about women that spend their spare time in nightclubs?

      Do American men simply ask or offer women they do not know for sex?
      Things happens more subtle here.
      In my experience men do not ” offer sex” , that is not what smart men do. Stupid men( according to Norwegian code) ask for sex ( or offer sex) but get little or none.

      . Smart ones know what they are doing.
      But if you are looking for PUA technics I can not tell you the moves the successful men make. PUA make me uncomfortable with theirs insincerity.

      • “But do your women friends get 100 offers of sex a week?” – LOL. I did think this upon reading it. Do you not average out at 100 a week, Iben? What are you doing wrong? Everyone else is! 😉

        Since the population is roughly fifty fifty for every woman to receive 100 offers of sex a week would mean men making offers to 100 women a week on average. I don’t think any of us have the time for that! Wow, that’d be a shocking statistic; we’d definitely deserve a reputation for shallowness if that was happening!

        “Give me a straight answer quick, because I’ve only asked 78 women this week and it’s already Thursday!”

        • Hi Joseph

          I have never been offered sex 100 times each week.
          In my lifetime maybe ten men has asked me directly for sex or ” offered” sex as Tim phrase it. But then I never visit bars,nightclubs. The men I like are not to be found in nightclubs.

          Americans are more different from Europens in more ways than one. Maybe they are more direct about this?

          I can not imagine a man in England “offers a woman sex,” but like Scandinavians I hear you tend to fall into each others beds. How this happens is another story.

          Figures like 100 times a week must come from models, and women that try online dating and have photos that all men like.

    • Mr Supertypo says:

      “I must say that my skepticism turned out to be true. Most people are saying the same thing that I feared: That perhaps Scandinavian women do take the initiative in sex a lot, but they only pursue good looking / attractive men. The average Scandinavian guy cannot expect to be approached for sex. It is not easier for men to get laid in Scandinavian countries.”

      And how does that show that women in scandinavia are suppressed? Women lust after hot guys, and guys after hot women. So it seems pretty much equal to me. Since women also pursue guys I dont see all this patriarchal suppression. Beside that, as a DJ I can tell you that look is overrated.

      “There will never be a place on earth not in a 1000 years, not after undoing all the effects of suppression, culture, patriarchy, fear of men, etc; where, say, an average looking man will get 100 offers for sex from women in a week. Sorry for sounding prophetic.”

      The average woman dont get 100 offer for sex a week. I think you are misinformed.

  96. caveat emptor says:

    The underlying assumption here is that people largely learn their sexuality from culture, with the implicit assumption that a change in culture is all that is necessary to erase a whole host of troublesome human behavior.

    But that’s a hell of an assumption.

    • I see where you’re coming from, and that you’re advocated a socio-biological interpretation of the way society is; but not all societies are the same, and culture evolves too, as well as biology. You look at the cultural shifts of the last 100 years; in the face of that can you still claim that social convention is based in biology and hardwired instinct?

  97. zaskoda says:

    You had me so captivated until the end. You said “So, how can we all work together to change our collective impression of male sexuality as something that is dangerous and disgusting?” and then you continued to make a list of things men can do for change. Do you see what you’ve done there?

  98. To build upon the point you are making here. The notion that boys are out of control is one side of the story behind shutting them out of discourse relating to sexuality. I suspect, however, that the notion that they are also *in* control of our sexuality also plays a part in this. To explain, somewhere along the way I assimilated and internalised the notion that sexual pleasure was something a man gave me. If I wasn’t getting enough, it was his fault, because men were supposed to know how to pleasure a woman and I had no responsibility in the matter.

    Years, and years and years later I came across something a writer had found especially meaningful in her life and this was when a partner told her “you are responsible for your orgasm.” This hit me like a ton of bricks and sparked a major paradigm shift. Why the hell had I spent my entire life (I was 40 at the time) implicitly supposing that men knew more about my sexuality than I did? This was an artefact of some cultural conditioning that I had picked up somewhere along the way, and which just stuck.

    In line with such reflections, it began to dawn on me that for people who are apparently in charge of our sexuality, fellas as a whole have done a poor job of figuring things out. Even men of science have worn blinders when they’ve studied the subject and produced a great deal of half truths and incomplete data along the way. Shutting men out of the discourse then might not simply be a result of them being typified as threatening, but this may also reflect a wholesale rejection of the nonsense they’ve been feeding us our whole lives. I mean come on already, Savage, a gay man fer chrissakes, is giving us better advice than a whole lot of sex doctors ever did.

    • Hi Marrnina
      You are right . But I fear what you write is still the truth in many cases:
      ✺”however, that the notion that they are also *in* control of our sexuality also plays a part in this.”✺

      I am not thinking of the fact that most women can have an orgasm if they learn how to move…etc.
      I think more of the phenomena that some men,maybe most men will only marry women that have less sexual expericence than themselves. Or their jaousy and sexual insecurity makes them reject women that had more sexual partners than themselves .
      This is a super effective way to control women’s sexuality and it is based on lies and myths that men uphold.
      This is lies men give each other from generation to generation :
      A woman will never understand that you are lousy in bed if she is a virgin or had one sexual partner only.
      Women never figure out what is good sex,good love making by themselves , they can only get this understanding by sleeping with lots of men.

      Marry a virgin and she will always belive you are the worlds best lover. This myth suppresses women’s sexuality and the same men that complain about their longing for sex still uphold these attitudes.
      And they days turns into weeks and weeks into years.

      Men’s jaousy and sexual insecurity controls women’s sexuality .
      They even want to control the sexual life she had before they met her.
      Heaven forbid that she is a sexual being before they put their hands on her and GIVE her an orgasm.

      We are all sexual already in the womb before we are born,
      Still many men expects that women shall and can supress all sexual needs,feeling and activity until she meets The One. Then she may be 18,28,36……but is expected to have lived like an asexual being until she met HIM.

      Oh yes,men control women’s sexuality.
      And I will not say what I mean about porn. I better keep my mouth shot about that issue.
      If this sounds like am for bed- hopping ,and lots of one night stands and the hook up culture we see on Craig’s list,then I am not.

      • @Iben….

        Hello Iben!
        You write,

        “Women never figure out what is good sex,good love making by themselves , they can only get this understanding by sleeping with lots of men.”

        “Men’s jaousy and sexual insecurity controls women’s sexuality .
        They even want to control the sexual life she had before they met her.
        Heaven forbid that she is a sexual being before they put their hands on her and GIVE her an orgasm.”

        Most women CAN sleep with a lot of men if they so desire and discover the “good sex.” But most men cannot do it. Only a few men are so lucky and fortunate.

        Men are NOT trying to control a woman’s sex life by wanting to know her history. In my case, based on experience, my ex wife married me knowing I was sexually inexperienced. Because practice does make perfect, she was not so eager to “practice” with me. It’s the same story over and over Iben. I just do not understand why women do not marry the men who give them good sex!?

        Because I was not so good at it (maybe, she never said I was not), she did not want it. But there is embedded in her attitude this selfish narcissism. How I felt was irrelevant. OK. Fine.

        Again, why don’t the women marry Mr. Good Sex if they know this is going to be a problem when they marry? It is a fair and reasonable question. And please, do not respond with, “Marriage is not all about sex.” Not trying to be rude. But, I have heard it so many times…

        • Iben

          When i left him I asked why he had married me .He told me that he had married me :” to have you here when I wanted to have sex with you”.

          That is the story of countless young men who get married

          If men could obtain sex as easily as women, they would be in a much better position to decide whether they really want to marry or not. It is a shame that men have to marry in order to ensure a regular sex life.

          At 27, even I sometimes feel compelled to consider marriage because of my desire for sex and physical intimacy, despite the fact I abhor marriage and commitment. It is a big dilemma for me at this stage of my life. But I know it is the only feasible way for me because I’m not hot / great looking enough to have flings, short term /no strings sexual relationships, FwB, etc.

          I repeat: A man who can easily obtain sex and physical intimacy is in a much better position to decide whether he really wants marriage/LTR or not, than a man who cant.

          • @Tm…

            “I repeat: A man who can easily obtain sex and physical intimacy is in a much better position to decide whether he really wants marriage/LTR or not, than a man who cant.”

            George Clooney is a perfect example.

      • @Iben, Much of the desire for a virgin was to avoid disease + avoid issues with raising someone else’s child. My only concerns with a partner who’s had more partners than I, or any partner with more than 0 partners, is STI’s and hopefully a good bloodtest will workout and let us both know what’s what. Take disease out of the picture and I wouldn’t care, and if there are no STI’s and she’s had 20 partners then I don’t care long as she is faithful. If she has an STI then I would probably freak and wouldn’t know how to handle that as I reallllllyyyy don’t want more illness in my life, I’ve already had a decade of constant multiple illnesses.

        • sarah (lowercase) says:

          Since science has caught up, why not ask for STI tests instead of an old social construct? Tho, i totally hear the fear of disease — even sick people need love.

          Anyway — it might be good practice to ask for what you want actually , not the symbol of what you want. ( I admit to working on this one, myself)

          • @sarah (lowercase)…

            Yes, always ask for what you want, period.

          • Sarah
            Yes!
            Ask for tests instead of old social constructs. Often gay men go together to take tests when they start dating.

            Men can not talk about how women reject them,and at the same time reject women that show love for men and express their love sexually .
            Men have to make up their mind.
            Do they want sexually alive women then they can not get virgins ,unless they marry at 18.

            • “Men can not talk about how women reject them,and at the same time reject women that show love for men and express their love sexually .”
              Not all men are the same, some love “sluts”, some love virgins, opinions differ.

              • Hi Archy

                Here is my thesaurus definition of sluts:
                SLUT=
                Noun
                1a dirty untidy woman
                2a woman adulterer

                Let us stop using this word.

                And yes Archy we are all different and want different things and fancy different persons.
                Some want virgins others see it differently. I am often fascinated by priests and celibate men.

                When is a woman a virgin Archy?

                *Is a young woman that use a dildo or vibrator in her vagina still a virgin?
                * Is a woman that use a lot of online porn still a virgin?( She is not exactly inexperienced…..).
                *Is she a virgin after petting,oral or anal sex?
                *Is loss of virginity = vaginal penetration by a man?
                *Is a sexually abused child,or a raped women a virgin? They are sexually inexperienced.

                In this thread several men say they want women to flirt more,take initiative,show interest when they actually are interested, ask men out,understand men’s need to be desired,and also treat men with respect.

                If men wants virgins in the meaning inexperienced sexually and at the same time ask women to show sexual interest,desire and end their suffering as incels then we still have a double moral.
                You can not have your cake and eat it too.

                I am for a moral where we all treat each other with dignity and respect, sexually and emotionally. This includes respect for our own sexuality.
                Persons that value their own sexuality and know their own worth do not exploit others sexually or play with their feelings.
                Virginity or not has nothing to do with it.

                • If I use “slut” quotes like this it usually means I don’t use the term myself in everyday language.

                  I define virgin as penetration or envelopment WILLINGLY.

          • I just ask for sti tests, I don’t really care about the number of partners, just don’t get me infected and stay faithful which applies to all people. I lost my virginity to a virgin, it was hella awkward, I hope my next partner has more experience as I have had very little myself and am interested to know what they could bring to the bedroom.

        • Hi Archy

          Of course you shall take care of your health.
          You set your boundaries. We all do that Archy.
          And I think you have a lot more options than you are aware of.

    • I have to say, I thoroughly support you in your opinion. I don’t know if it is just men who endorse that meme; it’s the sexual equivalent (or perhaps sexual dimension) of the Sleeping Beauty complex; and it is enshrined in “the predator/prey model of courtship” because it’s reducing the female role in the decision making process of their sex lives is not saying no to sex they don’t mind, rather than saying “I want” about the sex they actually want. Since men (some men) feel damaged or disenfranchised by this model of courtship too, I’d say that makes subverting it, deconstructing it and boycotting it a good cause across the gender spectrum. 🙂

      • Hi Joseph

        But how?
        We discuss it,and see things with new eyes. I see men differently after a few months on GMP.

        But a culture is hard to change. And this article in The Guardian say something important.It is about the book Jules ask us to read.
        http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2013/jul/05/what-do-women-want-daniel-bergner

        • Yes, and challenge the stereotypes when we here them reiterated in conversation.

          I found myself thinking of Jarvis Cocker’s line in the song I Spy when I read that article: “your mind’s just the same as mine except that you’re just clever swines / You never let masks slip, you never admit to it, you’re never hurried.”

          And I have heard so many women say “I guess I’m more like a man” rather than accepting that the stereotype is wrong. Can you play a role for so long and so well that you actually believe it? Is society founded on what (I’m going to coin a phrase here) I’m going to term a “Basil Rathbone Complex” where we can’t see the distinction between our selves and the role we play? Because presumably in some sense those denials are fully believed, aren’t they?

          Do I feel slightly threatened by the article? Yes, actually. Isn’t that odd? But I think what’s frightening about it is not the sexuality itself but the threat of deceit; having been cheated on, and I’m sure this isn’t a purely male perspective, I expect women who have been cheated on feel the same, I can tell you, hard though it is to be told “I’ve met someone else. It’s over.”, it’s much harder to be told “I met someone else six months ago, but I thought I’d hedge my bets and see how things pan out, and now I’ve decided it’s over” – What the six months during which I was depressed, paranoid, in which we had non-sequitor arguments in which you made contradictory criticisms that didn’t make sense; the six months where I was in the wrong for being here and in the wrong for not being here; the six months which destroyed my self esteem; the six months in which you stopped making eye contact with me and I wondered what I’d done wrong; the six months during which, by your own observation, I looked like a beaten dog? Those six months?

          The Elizabethan’s thought that cuckolds went mad as a matter of course; if there really was a correlation between being a cuckold and mental illness I swear it is down to being lied to for long periods of time – same as Hamlet going mad when Denmark is full of unspoken secrets and puzzling evidence. An environment of lies is a false reality; like a glitchy Matrix.

          I’m okay with accepting that life-long monogamy is not an option, and in fact I’m happier if society is open about it, particularly now when the really important relationship of my life is firmly behind me. In Paper Thin Hotel, Cohen says “I wasn’t siezed by jealousy at all / in fact a burden lifted from my soul / I found that love was out of my control”. One can be philosophical in knowing that the person who professes love for you, won’t feel that way for ever. I find deceit and delusion far more threatening. I’d rather someone messed with my feelings than messed with my reality.

          • Hi Joseph

            You impress me!

          • Hi Joseph
            Now I was not thinking about you comments about being scared. We all are scared and hate to be deceived and lied to.

            I like that you see the complexity of all this. There are layers upon layers upon layers …..

            And you write:
            ✺”Can you play a role for so long and so well that you actually believe it? Is society founded on what (I’m going to coin a phrase here) I’m going to term a “Basil Rathbone Complex” where we can’t see the distinction between our selves and the role we play? Because presumably in some sense those denials”…..✺

            And when you say:
            ✺”. I’d rather someone messed with my feelings than messed with my reality.”✺ I know how you feel Joseph.

    • Mr Supertypo says:

      “fellas as a whole have done a poor job of figuring things out. Even men of science have worn blinders when they’ve studied the subject and produced a great deal of half truths and incomplete data along the way.”

      Because women in the past, did a better job maybe?

      “Shutting men out of the discourse then might not simply be a result of them being typified as threatening, but this may also reflect a wholesale rejection of the nonsense they’ve been feeding us our whole lives. I mean come on already, Savage, a gay man fer chrissakes, is giving us better advice than a whole lot of sex doctors ever did.”

      Shutting men out from sex debates is a idiocy, I dont even understand how you can debate at all, het sex require two genders, so why shut one gender out? just to replace a myth with another myth? pleaseeee

  99. Great article but as a rape victim and having been the victim of much violence mainly at the hands of men and also being not at the moment very interested in men physically the article didn’t exactly resonate with me but I still understood and shared it because it does make sense on an objective level. However sadly I’m not one of those oh so super straight women that sees penises as some sort of delicacy that makes me hear angels signing when I see them and I’ll never understand this reaction that “straight” women apparently have either. Otherwise great points.

  100. I’ve spent the last two years grappling with my sexuality, which is traditionally considered unusual for a Hetrosexual man. As you quite astutely put it, men are just expected to be all about sticking their penis in a vagina.

    Two whole years, really getting to grips with why I’m unhappy with my sex life and the implications of that. Learning what I want in my sex life, and coming to terms with the fact that this doesn’t make me a bad person and that this is not a trade off for my sexual partners. I’m not getting ‘lucky’, we’re doing something mutually enjoyable because we’ve made a connection with one another.

    And you sum up pretty much everything it’s taken me to learn in two years in a couple hundred words. D’oh! 🙂

  101. Jameseq says:

    lben,
    no typo, i wanted to avoid using words that would cause the post to disappear into the m-zone

  102. Just thought I’d let you know that your article was one of the major reasons that I decided to start a blog to explore exactly how could a hetero cis man participate in the conversation about sex and sexuality.

    http://evanreadsfeminism.wordpress.com

    Thanks for writing this and getting my brain churning!

  103. Can I suggest to the moderators, as a possible policy, that if a comment is not approved could it be sent to the posters e-mail address with an explanation of what is wrong with it, rather than just disappearing into the ether? Often we don’t know why or what we’ve done wrong, and it can be quite a lot said, and only one word or one sentence that has led to the comment not being approved that could be easily fixed edited and reposted. And in some cases of course a comment might simply not get posted because of a bug or screen refresh problem or something. At least if we had the ones that genuinely haven’t been approved we’d know which they were.

  104. Point 5 kinda bugged me. The writer talk about men bodies but only talk about penises, balls, and anuses. I guess other parts of our bodies like chest, shoulders, arms, legs, buts, are so “meh” that women never talk about those parts. Really, I dont expect anyone to think my penis is beautiful, because its genitals. Like vagina, they have another function besides looks pretty. I rather have beautiful bodies and awful looking genitals.

    And I dont think women really love men bodies like us men love women bodies . Yes they love the body of men they love. But its not because they think men bodies are hot, its because its the body of the men they love so they think its hot. Proof, Women think men looks sexiest in suits. Why? Because it cover all of our bodies, besides suits shows the status and wealth of the wearers. Women don’t like men wear shorts, why? Because they don’t like to look at our legs ( its hairy, ewww ) . Women don’t like men wear speedos at the beach, they prefer us wear broad shorts, because, again, its cover more.

    And again, I have several times hearing women said how they are straight but they prefer to look at women bodies and said men bodies are “funny, boxy, hairy, and unattractive” and they said they can only appreciate bodies of men they love. And listen, I dont blame you for that. Most women are just not visual. Yes maybe you can lust for men bodies, but only for the bodies of men you attracted to emotionally first. Maybe its biological.

    Look, as a guy, I would really love if women are visually attracted to men and approached us first. But really, I dont think it would happen very soon because of our major differences.

    But I love the first 4 points. Rape culture, the game, no means no, rejection, I try to deal all those ( besides, I never interested in the game and all PUA stuff and I support feminism and gender equality). But point 5, I dont think its true.

    • John: I think it really drives Alyssa’s point home that you’ve just read an article in which a woman has said “women like men’s bodies,” and your immediate reaction is to post that they don’t!

      Sure, she talks about genitals, but I think her overall comments about bodies means just that – the whole thing. She talks about genitals because women are specifically told that these are unpleasant, and she’s trying to get across the point that even the bits we’re told are horrible? We actually love those.

      Sure, women do sometimes say things that suggest they’re not that interested in looks. This article is about how women are taught to suppress their sexuality though; refusing to acknowledge or discuss physical attraction is a part of this. And plenty of women will have internalised that thinking to the point that they maybe don’t react so much to seeing a man’s body.

      I think with your comments on clothing, you’re drawing too many conclusions. I love how women look in suits too, does that mean I don’t like female bodies? Both men and women can look very good in a well-tailored suit… but it really works better for people with a good body to start with, so it’s certainly not about covering up! Suits really flatter well-built men, broad chests and shoulders are highlighted. And likewise, a good suit on a woman flatters all the right curves. And suits can show off someone’s features while also being very classy. That’s hot! Plus I’m sure for some people, part of the attraction – regardless of gender – is the dominance someone wearing a suit often projects. I would suspect you’re jumping to conclusions on the other clothing items as well – if women don’t like those things, it’s probably more down to what’s seen as fashionable or well-dressed.

      I was attracted to my boyfriend’s body before I loved him, before we were together, and before we’d so much as kissed. And have you really never heard girls swooning over pop stars, or women making comments about the bodies of muscular movie stars? It very much happens. Maybe these comments are made more between women than in front of men… there’s that supressing of sexual desire again!

      There was actually a very recent study which very much found that women are stimulated just as much as men by visuals. I can’t find it at the moment, but this article makes some very good points about how a lot of this is cultural:

      http://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/sex-lies-men-myths-0217137

      • “swooning over pop stars, or women making comments about the bodies of muscular movie stars”

        Aye, but not over the average person that looks nothing like them. It still doesn’t address the inequality in the power relations caused by sexuality– the reason men play those games is because we have been told that we have to get the woman to say yes, and that is well within their right to say no as well, but the fact of the matter remains that women rarely have to get a man to say yes, which is why you can swoon over muscular movie stars, while men have to sit there feeling inferior if they do not meet the demands of women, as many dont.

        • @asdfas….

          Yesterday in church, the Pastor spoke about marriage. He gave us men five things we need to make sure we give our wives. Similarly, he gave the women five things a husband needs. And no they were NOT sex, sex, sex, sex, sex.

          One of key things was that a woman must never treat another man BETTER than her husband. And man includes the Pastor. He felt that one of the primary reasons more husbands do not attend church is because the wives show more interest to the male Pastor than her husband.

          Afterwards, I spoke to several men and women about the “sermon.” This one guy said when he was attending church with his ex wife, she would often ask the pastor if she could get him something (water, food, etc). When he got home and requested she get him a glass of water, she told him “you know where the fridge is!” He said this would really piss him off big time. It made him feel below the pastor yet he was her husband.

      • I’m dying to know how women are taught that dicks and balls are gross. At what age, how and why? I never knew this, but mad props those who are able to get past it.

        • I’m surprised that this article didn’t mention the practice of male circumcision which surely correlates with women being taught dicks and balls are gross. When arguing against circumcision its common to hear women from the u.s. object: ‘but foreskins are gross, dirty and unclean’

          Removing the most erogenous zone of the penis and exposing the second most erogenous zone to constant and desensitizing abrasion is surely one of the ways the U.S. most egregiously demonizes male sexuality.

          It always amazes me when i consider the dichotomy that exists in the U.S. between the sexual liberation of women and the gross violation of basic human rights that is non-consenting male genital mutilation.

        • Hi Broyd
          Not all girls are told that penises and balls are gross.
          Look at these photos from a sculpture park with 212 sculptures. This where i saw naked men for the first time as a little girl. I remember I was so fascinated that I crept up on one of the sculptures and touched the penis. My mother and aunt looked a little embarrassed when I did this,but nobody gave me negative teaching about men’s bodies.

          http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Vigelandsparken+Sculpture+Park&qpvt=Vigelandsparken+Sculpture+Park&FORM=IGRE#a

      • It does drive her point home that he can’t think of an example of women finding (for example) broad shoulders attractive, but it also say a lot that you (both) discount each others’ experience. His experience (and mine) has been that scantily clad men receive many more complaints than compliments.

        His depiction of it is obviously fairly black-and-white, but I think a bigger part of the problem isthe standard one. In the media, depictions of anyone who isn’t Abercrombie-percfect are complained about. We notice more when it’s about women, perhaps simply because women’s fashions show more skin than men’s. I don’t know whether the survey has been done, but I would guess that non-airbrushed depictions get belittled roughly the same amount, regardless of gender.

    • Aeon Blue says:

      John,

      Many hetero women do lust after men, every inch of them, and even when they are not emotionally attracted to a man. We love to see attractive men in shorts, speedos, absolutely naked, and everything in between. I am sure we notice the gentle swell of a man’s chest and the lean firmness of his thighs with the same maddening intensity of lust heterosexual men feel for a woman’s breasts and hips. It is disappointing and frustrating when people claim to believe that women “just aren’t visual” the way men are, when I know that I, and many, many other women, certainly are. It’s especially maddening because men aren’t the only ones to perpetuate this belief. Every time I hear a woman say that women’s bodies are more beautiful, I shake my head and wonder how any woman that considers herself heterosexual could think that, because I know how completely in love I am with the male physique.

      The funny thing is, though, I think I know why, because I used to be one of those women that believed men looked better dressed up than down, and was more aroused by naked women than men. The truth is, I had to learn how to be a heterosexual woman. That may sound weird, but consider this: men are taught from a young age that they are sexual (even if it’s a predatory, warped sexuality) and that this is natural. Women, on the other hand, are taught their sexuality (or lack thereof) is, as this article mentions, shaped around the idea that sexuality must be rejected, denied, or used as a bartering chip. As an adolescent girl with no friends, I had no idea that men could be sexy. I had no idea I could have a sexuality.

      I certainly had sexual urges and I’m sure I masturbated as much, or more, than any horny teenage boy, but my fantasies were half-formed things that reflected mostly what I saw in the media – and that was women’s bodies. I had never seen a naked man before, nor had I seen a man act sexually desirable (except sometimes on tv as a joke – vain men and men who think they are sexy are always ridiculed in media), but in movies I’d seen plenty of women playing the vamp and my father kept Playboys in the bathroom. I knew what it looked like to objectify women, so that is what I used. I thought men were icky, hairy predators that secretly terrified me, and as the media showed me, the thought of a man being sexually desirable was a joke; I could like men’s faces, but that was about it. All of the women in my family had been raped, and there was a guy coming around daily still trying to rape my mother, so I didn’t want to bother with any of that. Women were safe, and men were safe as long as they were androgynous teen heartthrobs that didn’t exist below the collars of their shirts.

      It took a long time, and a lot of effort on my part, to learn about my own sexuality. I discovered alternative, underground sources of women’s art where the male body was glorified and presented as desirable and not predatory. There was yaoi, and erotic fanfiction, and fantasy novels where men were portrayed as vain creatures of beauty that knew how sexually desirable they were, and for the first time in my life, I began to understand that men could be sexually attractive too. It was an incredibly exciting discovery for me. When the assumption of predatory behavior and my own contempt for my sexuality was removed, I discovered that I was, in fact, absolutely, wildly, in love with the male body. I just had to get through a nigh impenetrable layer of social conditioning, fear, self-loathing, and inexperience to find that out.

      So, if you think heterosexual women aren’t biologically primed to be as physically attracted to men as het men are to women, well, I don’t have any proof of that one way or the other, but consider that there is a lot straight men take for granted when it comes to being able to follow their own natural urges.

      And, keep in mind that this is just my own story, and I was a pretty repressed girl. My sister never had the problems I did. She was sexually active from a young age, and I guess her sexuality always just felt natural to her. She pinned pictures of naked men to her walls, would always slow her car to a roll to check out male joggers, and in general was a liberated horn dog.

      • @Aeon Blue….

        Very very very good post.

        As a man I have been doing my own reading and research on female sexuality. One of the things that I have come across is this urge/need by men throughout history to suppress female sexual desire. I goes very very far back.

        However, there were periods in history where female desire and sexuality were permitted to be unbridled. The result: Men discovered female desire was more powerful than male desire! Do you think this is what lead to the subsequent suppression of female sexuality? I do.

        I really agree to pretty much all you stated.

        Thanks for such an honest and open view of the issue.

        Happy Independence Day!

      • I find it interesting that you state that your sister was liberated, but if she were a guy her behavior would be the stuff of sexist campfire tales. ( I know, its the timeframe and continuum in the women’s empowerment stories of many, and probably my own at sometime.)

        I think I ended up identifying as a lesbian for while because of the theme of demonized/adversarial sexuality in the 80s. I read some early feminist things that kind of messed me up… men being violent and correlations between penises and swords. Stuff that was way above my age bracket — Karen Finley, Angry Women, etc. (in reality I was probably more bisexual, but the bi-community at the time felt more predatory than just guys.)

        I’m coming back to the beginning, so we’ll see what happens, but I hope that the slow modulations towards being able to let my guard down, keep happening.

        • OirishM says:

          Penises and swords? Interesting – in another thread a commenter called penis and semen weapons. I guess maybe those ideas haven’t completely gone away *sigh*

          • As that poster was also called Sarah, I suspect that they may be the same person, rather than this being a case of synchronicity. But this is interesting, because if you are the same person (I’m changing my pronouns now Sarah because I’m turning to you; lets imagine, if this was a real world discussion rather than words on a page) if you are the same person, you’re now saying that that metaphor “messed you up”. Bear in mind I’m not an anti-feminist by any means, just a man who is trying to recover his sense of self-worth and functionality from being too influenced by the more extreme excesses, but would you now say that the rhetoric of extreme feminism was actually repressive to you as a woman also?

            There will always be sexaphobics I think, for many reasons – whether due to upbringing or bad personal experience or maybe just a chemical difference, and if they are bitter and frustrated about it they will affiliate themselves to whatever ideology is available and use that ideology to justify their sexaphobia as being a matter of principal – and in the past it’s being religion – St. Paul is a terrible sexaphobic. He very reluctantly admits that marriage is better than sinning, if you really must, but it’s better still if you can not sin without getting married, i.e. stay utterly celibate like him and write about how awful homosexuals instead. Isn’t religion marvellous for passing down the neuroses of men two thousand years dead to new generations, eh? And then there’s a long history of prudes that use religion and/or superstition to justify their sexaphobia, and the sexaphobic meme becomes contagious because they preach and they pass it on to each new generation. It often means hatred or fear of the opposite sex too.

            There is nothing intrinsically feminist about suppressing sexuality – if anything feminism began at a time when female sexuality was such an alien concept that Physicians “discovering” the female orgasm for what they thought was the first time, was a miracle cure for hysteria (which is as much to say that what they called hysteria was actually the result of going doo-lally from having your sexuality repressed for a whole life time) but since they didn’t see it as something associated with sex itself they didn’t feel that stimulating hysterical paroxysms was a sexy perk of the job, instead they complained that it was too difficult, often time consuming and delegated the duty to midwives quite often. So that is the world that feminism is supposed to have liberated women out of; anyone using the ideology as a vehicle to perpetuate sexual repression not only isn’t feminist, it’s actually counter-revolutionary and reinforcing Victorian preconceptions. As is of course the demonization of male sexuality – the idea that women need protecting from men, because women are innocent and men are part bestial, is itself a Victorian concept. Let’s be honest, we all slightly fear each other, and partly what we fear is ourselves because desire makes us vulnerable, emotional connection to another human being makes us vulnerable, intimacy makes us vulnerable; it’s not that there is nothing to fear it’s just if you feed the fear it grows disproportionate to reality and paralyses and oppresses. The feminist ideology, (not uniquely, other philosophies too) can be used to overcome those fears or it can be used to reinforce them, it all depends how it’s applied and how it’s interpreted. It’s a liberating ideology only if it’s used to do the former, if it’s used to do the latter it’s a repressive one. And any writer or thinker using it to do the latter is a modern day St Paul and needs to be challenged so their neuroses don’t get passed on to future generations as received wisdom.

            Penises as weapons? As Klaus Baudelaire points out in A Series of Unfortunate Events (not all my quotes are that literate! Gotta love Lemony Snicket) “Anything can be a weapon if you’re in a weapony mood” – but it’s really not their primary or secondary function. That’s somebody putting their fears into you and that’s not fair on you; as if you haven’t got enough fears of your own to deal with (as we all have) you don’t want someone else’s fear, second-hand, being foisted on you with an air of academic authority and an abuse of ideology to reinforce them. I’d be quite angry about it if I were you.

            • Mostly_123 says:

              In short, great post Joseph – really agree about how fear can be (mis)projected & how ideologies can be (mis)applied for good or ill. Thanks.

          • The sword=penis/vagina=sheath was totally a halmark of first and second wave feminism… I would guess it could feel demonizing, but at that time, it was one of those steppingstones in a direction away from not having any/many choices about work/success/sexuality/family/agency. I guess for the over 50 set, you’d find stories of what life was like, and how those correlations came around. Because even if the ideological battleground shifted, there are still scars. (Go ahead and read some Karen Finley -it’s pretty tough stuff – totally a weapony mood ) I think that there will need to be some dialogue between the demonizing types– because I’ll bet they have their reasons, probably tied to thier experiences. In any case, I think listening and honoring the experience will be a big part of it.

            Anyway— that other Sarah in the other thread wasn’t me. I also know that there are prostitutes in the mall, and I don’t have the same fetish for uniforms as the other Sarah without an h. I’m rolling with lowercase for now.

            On to the why the violence of the second wave was accepted as a life changing force, I think had to do with not having many choices, and having life be something that was done to me… Backed into corners — fear becomes a seed for action, if it doesn’t silence a person… Anger and screaming was for survival… Like the pink sari gang of India, previous feminists to the 80’s made screaming and fighting an option to dutifully needlepointing, just as that sense to fight really made the dialogue about men’s feelings and that it might not have been the best idea to achieve equality possible.

            As for me being angry about it, if its cool with y’all, I’m going to try to aim for understanding instead of more anger.

            • Hi Sarah
              I have long suspected that we had more than one Sarah here. We also have more than one John….
              This website should deal with that problem like they do on other onlin debate sites.
              Differernt persons should not be able to use the same username.

              • sarah (lowercase) says:

                I’m new to this hood, and just dropping by. Though it was the ease of commenting and anonymousish options (however flawed) that made me chime in. Anonymity and ease can create safer space for sharing the stories ( ESP when they are about sex and come from warm gooey places) that move towards the goal of being ‘good men.’ If I would have had to log in, I would have moved on. But that’s my personal bias when aiming for social and cultural change.

                If I might suggest, viewing all the voices as separate and unrelated when using/seeing an un-unique username as an alternative to demanding?requiring? that the technology /process feel familiar?

            • David K says:

              Fun fact: the word vagina comes from Latin, and was the word for sheath or scabbard, of course suggesting the male penis as a sword. In fact, many of the problems that we have, and that early Feminists had with the concept of a patriarchal society are based in our language, and how it has trickled down through the years, quite a bit of the shaming or derogatory terms coming from Latin. For example, penis is also from Latin, and had meant tail, but also eventually meant both the male organ AND lust; they were virtually inseparable as it could be used figuratively as well as anatomically. Also, as another example, puberty came from the Latin word pubertas which was specifically called manhood or the age of maturity; it is closely linked to the Latin word pubes which meant to be grown up or an adult. As one last example, the word pudendum came from the Latin word pudenda which meant shameful or that which should make you feel shame; the fact that this word is primarily used now to describe the vulva is mighty disturbing. Our language flows down through history, and the meanings still linger long after the words themselves may have changed in use and meaning. Their roots inform our society, and we still cling to a vocabulary that does indeed subjugate women primarily because there are so few men or women who know it.

              Now, some fixate on certain portions for whatever reason, but I feel the most important thing to do is learn what the words once meant so we can make informed decisions on whether or not we want to use them, or if they should still mean what they used to. Otherwise the cobwebs of the past will always cling to our language.

    • Like the others, I disagree with your point that women don’t find men visually attractive. I’ve always found homo-erotic scenes between men in novels very sexy and you should read some of the things Oscar Wilde has written about male beauty… I’m sure there are also many hetero women writers who describe their feelings about the male body very eloquently.

      • anewleaf says:

        Our culture uses women’s bodies incessantly to access sensuality and beauty. We have prioritized the male gaze so much that the woman’s gaze seems all but absent. Who doesn’t remember crushing hopelessly on their cute male teacher or the pretty boy at school?

        I was also bereft of “eye candy” when my sexuality was forming, so I learned to objectify women like everybody else. Only when my sexuality hit its peak after 30 did I fall completely in love with the beautiful, sweet young things around me. And I’m quiet about it. Know why? Because a woman who lusts after a piece of beauty ten years younger than her is pathetic and comic. A man who does that is just…. a normal man. Nobody bats an eye at actors dating 22 year olds into their 50’s. We take it for granted that they prioritize their desire. Prioritizing a woman’s desire is… weird.

        And what a pity! When I level with men about my appreciation for their physical selves (especially if they spend half the time a woman does to make it appealing), they look as if no one has ever made them feel beautiful or special their whole lives. They have no faith that anyone could find them distractingly irresistible.

        It’s also a dangerous thing for women to express. The number of men who have taken my appreciation for their beauty as an invitation to fuck my slutty self is truly discouraging. I think we’ll find that once women feel safe, they’ll start expressing this more.

        • The problem there lies in what kinds of people we all gawk at – which is typically whatever the cultural norm for “hot” is.

          Women absolutely ogle men as much as we do women, the difference is, very rarely are those men “normal” men – but rather the idealized, perfect version (i.e. David Beckham, Adam Levine, etc.)

          In my experience, it’s men who tend to be far more flexible in this regard (although absolutely not always so). Maybe it’s precisely because of the way we’re raised – which is to be less picky because we’re the seekers, not the sought after.

    • @John…

      “And again, I have several times hearing women said how they are straight but they prefer to look at women bodies and said men bodies are “funny, boxy, hairy, and unattractive” and they said they can only appreciate bodies of men they love.”

      I truly scoff at the notion. Why are women so crazy about certain actors such as the Canadian guy. Just cannot recall his name. Too much bourbon I guess.

      Women check out men’s bodies all the time. Those women were flat out lying. If a woman is not in love or dating a guy, her #1 reason for having sex with him is usually physical (read buff) attraction, period.

    • John,

      Everyone else gave you the long version- I’ll give you the short. Go to True Blood’s facebook page, or any forum where it is discussed.

      I’m not saying that to promote the show- but believe me, discussions of the male actors on that show will open up your eyes a bit in terms of women loving men’s bodies. And it’s just one example. I just bring it up because I think it’s one of the neatest things- women VERY freely discussing male anatomy with absolutely no shame. And believe me, it’s not isolated to actors on a tv show. Women are quite visual, as well.

      I do think your post illustrates what the author’s saying quite well, though. My current partner seemed totally thrown with how openly I would not only check him out, but comment on his features. Many women have been taught- as the other says- that this is not acceptable behavior and well, he had encountered quite a few of that stripe, just as you obviously have.

      I think honestly, it should never be seen as an “all women do this” “All men do that”- but rather, on an individual basis understanding that, well, generalizations are bad, no matter who they might be directed at.

    • No. I love men’s bodies, I like them big and strong and fuzzy. One of the reasons men look better in a good suit then in shorts is that well tailored suit pants show off men’s asses far better than athletic shorts that only come in s/m/l/xl.

      We don’t talk about it in polite company because everyone’s tastes are different; and we know too well what it’s like to be on the receiving end of that. And I am sick and bloody tired of guys telling other guys that the things that I find attractive are gross. Of course cisgendered men don’t find other furry cisgendered men attractive; but a lot of cisgendered women really do and deeply tired of the whole manscaping thing gone too far.

      Bah humbug. Grow up. Just because you wouldn’t sleep with yourself does not mean it’s disgusting.

    • Oh how wrong you are. I love the male body and I often find myself staring for a bit too long.. or fantasizing.. a lot. Thighs, legs, chest, chesthair, part just below the bellybutton, shoulders, arms, hands, collarbones, neck, hair, butt, penis.. mm *shivers*. I am very visual, I’ll tell you that.

      Men in suits, every day please.. in shorts, yes! In handyman “uniform” argh yes.. hahaha

      Think I made my point. My friends and I talk and look at your bods as much as we appreciate the female body ; )

    • Alison Cowan says:

      I completely understand why you got this impression John, and I’ll put it down to trying to be concise on the writer’s part. The fact is, women DO love men’s bodies. Haven’t you ever noticed how many more female fans there are for baseball or soccer than there are for football or hockey? The sports where they are not bulked out of shape by either padding or weight lifting, or both. Same in everyday life. And you know that stereotypical “sexy” shot of a woman looking over her shoulder? Except for not wanting them to be standing tip-toe, women love looking at men in that pose, too. In fact, women love looking at men; why do you think Hollywood gets away with so few female leads? Because only men go to the movies, and men only want to see women in the background? Pleeease. I know there’s been nothing in your personal history that effectively counteracted the self-consciousness of adolescence, and media representations are really, genuinely, seriously skewed, but women are more discrete about their admiration only because men are rewarded for acting like that (even when it’s sexual harassment) and women are penalized (even if it’s just smiling). And yes, it is a penalty if a smile is treated as if it were a come-on and the man behaves as if she’s done something despicable when she subsequently turns him down, instead of just shrugging off the mis-communication, smiling at the compliment and moving on. Do you see why it’s just as important to you (as a cis-man) to have sexual equality as it is to any cis-woman? The biggest single reason you personally have received too little praise for your appearance (and I say this having absolutely _no_ idea what you look like) is fear of sexual harassment on the part of the women who like looking at you. NOT, repeat NOT EVER, because they didn’t like looking at you.

      • Allison Cowan

        The biggest single reason you personally have received too little praise for your appearance (and I say this having absolutely _no_ idea what you look like) is fear of sexual harassment on the part of the women who like looking at you. NOT, repeat NOT EVER, because they didn’t like looking at you.

        The biggest reason women never looked at him might be because he hasn’t got the body of a Greek god.
        i have a friend, he is 6’2″ imposing, handsome and well built. He gets checked out and smiles from women everywhere he goes. Interesting that women never fear sexual harassment from him.

        The thing I would like you to consider is that although women are every bit as visual, they are just more SELECTIVE and find very few men physically/visually appealing (and believe me those men get enough feedback from women already). This is the reason behind why so many men feel that men’s bodies are undesirable and women never objectify and sexualize desire, gaze or lust after them.

        • @Tim…

          Yes, women do gaze, objectify, sexualize and lust after men. They do it all the time.

          However, it is limited to a small percentage of men. Men like the friend you described.

          Have you ever notice how women describe the men whom they find HOT? Tall, dark, handsome, well built…..

          • PursuitAce says:

            Thanks guys. I don’t know why this continually has to be repeated. I’m supposed to believe that women are just covertly lusting for me. Right. They have actually made jokes about my attractiveness, as recently as two days ago. Now I know that’s what’s actually happening. I don’t see how women being more discriminating is so negative. It just is what it is. The understanding of this reality would help to tone down the over aggressiveness of a lot of men.

            • @PursuitAce…..

              “It just is what it is.”

              Right. When slavery was in vogue, it too was “its just what it is.”

              Just because something IS the way it IS, does not mean it IS right or healthy. I guess you can’t see the trees for the forest.

            • PursuitAce

              I don’t know why this continually has to be repeated. I don’t see how women being more discriminating is so negative. It just is what it is. The understanding of this reality would help to tone down the over aggressiveness of a lot of men.

              Are you serious bro?

              Have you ever come across a woman on any forum ACKNOWLEDGING this reality?
              Do you see any woman on this thread who acknowledges this?

              Don’t you realize why this point has to be regurgitated again and again?

              NEWSFLASH: Its because society ( women in particular) have NEVER acknowledged it. Its the big elephant in the room !

              Do you know how I am shouted down on feminist forums for suggesting that women are more selective and find fewer men attractive?

    • As an artist who specializes in nudes (both female and male), I really hate it when people say in a factual manner that the female body is beautiful and the male body ugly. Sure, everyone has their orientation and tastes and opinions, but as a heterosexual female I love the male nude. It’s my favorite thing to draw.

      So when someone says men aren’t good to look at, or that women aren’t visually-oriented creatures, I cringe. There’s an episode of Seinfeld (“The Apology”) where the gang talks about how a woman’s body is a work of art, while any woman who appreciates a naked man is a “sickie.” I love Seinfeld, but I despise that episode.

      And I also despise the fact that any depiction of the male nude in art is automatically labeled “homoerotic,” even when the subject is not overtly sexual. I understand that throughout history, male artists made these works (because, well, men were making the vast majority of art until lately), and hence the artists are assumed to be exploring homosexual themes, but should that also mean the works’ audience must be homosexual men, as well?

      Hell, no, I say. The male nude can be enjoyed by anyone, even heterosexual guys. People can and should enjoy the male nude as much as they enjoy the female nude, whether that enjoyment is aesthetic or sexual. The ongoing repetition that a naked man is just plain ugly is totally, totally wrong. I think that attitude contributes greatly to the demonization of male sexuality expressed in this article.

      I could also go on about other male self-perception problems I’ve noticed in friends and past lovers. Like how a lot of guys underestimate their penis size. I think this comes from the fact that most men are only exposed to the male nude in the form of pornography, and male porn stars, just like female porn stars, diverge from the average in so many ways. The dearth of realistic depictions of both men and women in the media is a source of anxiety for both genders.

      – A. Ka

      A “sickie” who spends a lot of her time making art like this (nudity warning):
      http://www.akarchy.com/index.php/art/nudes

    • John, I completely disagree with you. Many women lust after ALL of the male body. Just because our society (or our world, really) is obsessed with women’s bodies, it doesn’t negate women’s attraction towards men’s bodies. You can’t speak for all women. Actually, you can’t speak for any women. So like the advice suggests, try to LISTEN.

      • Also, expressing your opinion as a universal truth (gee, how unusual) such as “women’s bodies are just better looking” does nothing but attempt to rationalize our society’s incessant objectification of women. Go study the Greeks for a different perspective 😉

    • I strongly think women know what they like and you, as a man, claiming to know what they like is very presumptuous don’t you think?

      • @Michael…

        Yes, you are correct. There are no “universal” likes for women when it comes to their taste in men.

        However, there are clearly a preferred taste for most women. One very clear preference is tall (over 6′) is preferred. Not all women obviously but most would you not say?

        It’s like a best seller. Clearly, market data says the best selling ice cream is vanilla. But do we all prefer vanilla. No. But, most of us do. Otherwise, it would not be the top seller among ice cream.

        So, think about it along those lines.

    • Mr Supertypo says:

      John, the idea that women are not attracted to mens body is alien to me. All my life experience goes in the opposite direction. Offcourse women lust over male bodies it happens all the time. So I wonder where do you get this idea. Unless you believe that all women are lesbians? 😉

    • Please do not speak for us. I myself, and many other women, absolutely love the male form and lust after it all the time, all of it.

    • daikiraikimi says:

      Someone who does not find others sexually attractive unless they love that person is demisexual. There are men and women who are demi, as well as men and women who are sexually attracted to others on sight. This is an individual difference, not a gender difference.

  105. I hate to say it, but the advice offered at the bottom of this article is exactly what gets many well-meaning “nice guys” into the perpetual “friendzone” that causes their bitterness in the first place. (I used quotes around these terms because they are what is used but certainly not what I’d prefer to use. I abhor those terms.)

    • The problem is we’ve been taught to have respect for women, but women are not taught to have respect for men. We’re taught not to feel a sense of patriarchal entitlement, but acting without a sense of patriarchal entitlement loses us respect. The predator/prey model of dating is dangerous and toxic but if one side boycotts it, and the other still endorses it, the side boycotting it automatically loses; it’s like the prisoner’s dilemma. If a woman think I’m less of a man because I don’t feel entitled to make contact without consent; if she then is pitying my hopelessness, rather than respecting the fact that I am respecting her rights, then she is not respecting me.

      But one can make an assertive statement of desire I think; e.g. “I want to hold you”. Hold is manlier and stronger and more mature a word than “hug”. I had a long think about the difficulty of asking for a “hug” when one is a single heterosexual male, and what a triple, (or was it quadruple?) bind, is involved in that word; and I slept on it and in the morning I realised that the problem was analagous to other spheres where an emotive response can be changed from a weakness to a strength just be choosing the right synonym – “I’m not sulking, I’m brooding”, and I decided you can probably say “I want to hold you” without losing power, it’s not so sexual that it’s rushing things but it’s not so aesexual that it becomes either cringingly suspicious or impotently lame. So you can say “I want to hold you” and it is neither a request (which is weakening) nor a demand (which is overbearing) it’s a point of information.

      Of course if she’s a “game player” she might still feel she should respond with no information either way on how she feels about that; in which case she’s manipulating you by restricting the flow of information, and if she’s a manipulative game-player I think it’s a fair reason to walk away; if my desire is not reciprocated I can live with that, she’s not that in to me; but if the respect is not reciprocated then we can be no more than acquaintances – we can’t be either friends OR lovers.

      The thing about “the game” is actually to win it a man needs a sense of entitlement, or at least fake a sense of entitlement. It’s like walking into an important building without getting the attention of the security guards; if you stride in looking like you have every reason to think you belong there, and having a purposeful stride the security guards don’t bat an eyelid, but if you look a little lost, and you look nervous and hesitant and feel at any moment you’re going to be caught you’re going to be asked for ID and kicked out. That’s your difference between the successful player, and the unsuccessful player. a gentleman of course goes straight to reception and makes an appointment, while he’s making the appointment six players have already snuck across the lobby, made straight for the bosses office and impressed her with their “go-getting attitude” and struck a deal.

      I don’t want to sneak across the lobby and I don’t want to make an appointment either, I want to go up to the receptionist and say “I’m here to see the boss; I haven’t got an appointment, but check with her, I’m sure she wants to see me. Tell her I’ve got an idea that will blow her mind and put this business on the map!” – don’t know what that means within the structure of this allegory. I hope it wasn’t a wrong thing.

      But we are being told not to have a sense of entitlement and never assume anything. The only options that leaves us is to “lose the game” or “boycott the game”. I’m happy to boycott the game as long as it’s a multilateral boycott rather than a unilateral one. What does that mean? Less awkward receptionists I guess, and security guards who pay attention.

      • Joseph: Try not to look at it as two sides, men vs. women.

        Not all men are taught to have respect for women, and not to feel a sense of patriachal entitlement. It is definitely not the case that all men are boycotting the predator/prey model.

        Likewise, not all women are taught to have respect for men, or to dislike men who do act entitled. And Alyssa stated repeatedly that girls are still taught to be prey.

        If there are sides, its like this: Those of us (as humans, gender doesn’t come into it) who have been taught respect and equality… and those who haven’t.

        Your problem is not women, your problem is the very societal issue that Alyssa is highlighting. Her article is very clear on the fact that both boys and girls are being taught terrible things. Taught to play along with very destructive roles.

        If you run into a woman who does not respect you, and who thinks you’re “less of a man” for not acting a certain way, then I would say you need to find women who are more on your wavelength, not assume that all women are like that. If it’s someone you really care about then perhaps you could try to gently educate them on gender equality.

        The rest of your post about wording and dealing with game players really makes it sound like you’ve had some pretty unpleasant experiences. But the way to make the boycott work isn’t to refuse to do it until 100% of women go along with it. It’s to find the women who do go along with it, or who it acn be explained to. If you feel a woman is a “game player,” and you don’t think there’s any way she’s going to change, then playing along is just making the problem worse: you’re telling her that yes, that’s exactly what men are like and how the world works.

        Right now, it’s a work in progress. The more of us refuse to play along, the more it will spread. People will bring up their children like Alyssa has done. And even people who’ve grown up with the predator/prey mindset will start to lose it as the people around them stop acting like that.

        So if you do find some player has managed to slip past security and beat you to the office, try to remember that the sort of boss who was hiding behind that receptionist and overblown level of security wasn’t what you were after, anyway. If she was a good person to work with, she should have been out looking to meet with you about that business idea! Leave them to it, and look for someone who’s willing to meet you half-way, not make life difficult for you.

        I realise that cuts the pool down, but please remember that avoiding men who’ve been taught to act like predators cuts the pool down for women who are boycotting, too.

        • No, not all men are taught to have respect for women or boycott the predator/prey model; that’s my point. The one’s who aren’t spend noticeably less nights lonely than those who do. I think that’s what all the men here have been saying. What reward is there in being honourable if the dishonourable prosper. Well that’s not just in this sphere of life, it’s in a lot of spheres of life, that’s true. We live in a ruthless dog eat dog world; but love is the one thing that would make the rest of it bearable. Your next paragraph is agreeing with me; that’s the problem, if women don’t have respect for men, and at the same time don’t dislike men who act with a sense of entitlement, the ones who do act with a sense of entitlement will always be better at “earning their respect”. I think in a way that’s not a man/woman problem; that’s the culture we live in (post Reagan/Thatcher! I see that era at producing a negative morality shift in our culture) those who subscribe to that zeitgeist see respect as “something to be earned” rather than something all human beings are entitled to unless they forfeit it – which personally is how I see respect.

          Yes actually I agree with you; all the way. I saw you as more adversarial when I skim read your post on the train, but now I’m at home and re-reading it, I see you’re utterly endorsing what I’m saying; and that is exactly what I’m doing, I am walking away from those for whom the respect is not mutual. But this is the problem with the “friendship zone” it is we get caught in the trap of being “too nice” because we haven’t “tried it on” when we have stated exactly how we feel and we haven’t been prepared to act further without a reciprocation on that level.

          But yes, I have had bad experiences, and I’m not alone, we all have. The thing is we are preached to, but they aren’t. Now I know the predator/prey model has victims of both genders; every victim of sexual harassment is a victim of the predator/prey model, and I talked earlier about the three former housemates and friend of theirs that are examples of two successful “players”, the “friend” is one of the vilest human beings, I have a gut-revulsion to him, arrogant smug; blah; and the former housemate that is a successful player I know to be a liar and cheat in other spheres (I first noticed he cheated at board games; but more recently I became aware that he overcharged his replacement for his deposit, and then lied to me about it when I challenged him); the other two are nice sensitive guys, deep down, but have massively low self-esteem and see themselves as failures because they are playing a game only sociopaths are going to succeed in, because they are socialised into thinking it’s the only option! So they are victims too. But I think one way to avoid the “too nice” thing is to get out early, as soon as you get the warning signs that you are being “tested for worth” by your ability to overcome objections rather than your sincerity and authenticity. So yes, I accept that all that boycott the game are cutting their pool down. Which is why the idea of a boycott needs to be popularised as an idea. But here’s the thing, at the moment men are being lectured not to play the predator, frequently, but women are not being lectured not to play the prey. They can think you’re the idiot for not knowing the script. Although, actually, now I’m talking about it I recall that my significant-ex that I was with for ten years did say that being honest and open was something she learnt from me; so I guess I did it once before – converted a game player to game boycotter. So it can be done, if someone thinks you’re worth it.

  106. Eduardo Corona says:

    Thanks for this article, Alyssa. This needs to be said waaay more often. I believe one of the most (if not the most) effective ways in which we can solve the problem of gender-based violence is to redefine gender roles, especially when it comes to seduction, sexuality and relationships.

    One key thing is: as a culture, we have to level the seduction game: make it about consent and communication. Both men and women contribute when they play the game of deceiving each other, of pretending they’re not interested, of pursuit and being pursued, of playing tricks. It’s that simple: if you play games, chances are you’ll get a player.

    “Cis men are also in the position of the cultural desirer, never the desired; many genuinely believe that since “no one” finds them sexy/since their sexuality is considered threatening, no one wants to hear what they have to say about sex.”

    I don’t think I could articulate it better than you did. I find both things extremely frustrating: that heterosexual males are often not considered an object of desire, and that we are considered threatening (which is pretty hurtful and offputting, for those of us who are not).

    At the same time, because of the seduction game that is often the rule, being a good guy is often deemed as pathetic and inattractive. As a result, genuinely good guys have to always be treading on a fine line: “Hey, I have to convince you I’m not a threat, but at the same time I’m going to sweep you away, because I’m cool like that.” It gets real tiring.

    • @Eduardo….

      “I don’t think I could articulate it better than you did. I find both things extremely frustrating: that heterosexual males are often not considered an object of desire, and that we are considered threatening (which is pretty hurtful and offputting, for those of us who are not).”

      How in the hell can you say heterosexual males are not considered an object of desire? Just whom do you think most women are having sex with? Gay men? Bisexual men? You comment is ludicrous.

      Women love Cis males.

      • Hi Jules

        You are right. Heterosexual men are objects of desire for heterosexual women.
        We are wired that way.
        Not only do we desire them we also love some of them with a love that can move mountains.

  107. James B says:

    Here’s what’s up, people.

    Before the advent of birth control, male sexuality WAS predatory. Women were the prey because having a child isn’t very fun. When a woman gets pregnant, she has serious decisions to make. A. give birth, which is really painful and have to raise the child for the next 18 years of your life, or B. get an abortion, which isn’t really nice to think about, and can create a lot of guilt problems which can affect a woman’s sex and emotional life forever. But when a man gets a woman pregnant, he can just scram and be done with it! So of course, the women were pursued more than the men… generally. Even though women often wanted to pursue a man they thought was a “good guy” and of high value, they often waited for HIM to pursue THEM.

    Until birth control.

    Now, suddenly, everything changes. Men don’t have to be so predatory anymore, because women are finally becoming willing to have sex more and more quickly, and casually.

  108. ultradawn says:

    dear woman writer, please, think about the term “douchebag”. do you know what you mean when you call someone that? do you know why it is considered a derogatory term? will you continue to use this term, after such consideration? quite frankly i find it harder to take your article as seriously as you wish it to be taken, when you use this term.

    also for consideration: if we are to ask men to stop trying to trick us into submission (and i agree, we should and i wish they would), we must also consider the tricks our society tells us we women need to use in order to attract men.We are all partly to blame… As long as women agree that they must wear skeleton-deforming footwear, artificially enhance facial features, and show skin in order to be taken seriously in the business world, we will never be seen or treated as equals.

  109. i think the real reason straight cis men can’t talk about their sexuality without sounding like [insert sexist pejorative here] is because the whole of our culture is framed around their sexuality.

    • @sophi…

      What do you mean? Can you be more specific?

    • Mr Supertypo says:

      “i think the real reason straight cis men can’t talk about their sexuality without sounding like [insert sexist pejorative here] is because the whole of our culture is framed around their sexuality.”

      No its not….

  110. Michael says:

    Most of the ideas here suffer from a lack of imagination. For example, the notion of the “Patriarchy” is now taken as a given, as if women were always miserable until the last half of the twentieth century. I would like to offer three facts.

    1) For most of human history there were no police. People had to protect themselves.

    2) It is also fairly recently that people thought in terms of “the way life ought to be,” “rights,” and “human equality,” rather than simply thinking to fight for what they wanted and accept bad results the way we accept our inability to fly like birds. Our notion of “ought” requires the notion of human equality, which is an Enlightenment value. A slave had no ability to think, “I ought not be a slave.” Slave rebellions failed when the masters approached with whips rather than as soldiers with swords.

    3) Women are weaker than men and less able to fight. I have seen small men dominate large women through threats. Of course women can dominate in other ways.

    A woman alone on the street who had no one to protect her was easily captured and, not only raped, but enslaved. Men captured women as much to do work as for sex. No one was going to come to her defense. That was the way it was. In the twelfth century Frankish Knights, who dominated Europe, could pretty much take any girl they ran across.

    But women with families had the protection of their fathers, brothers, and so on. Now why should they protect them? Well, obviously, because it would be a stain on the man’s honor if someone raped their sister or daughter or carried them off. This meant they had to credibly threaten the rapist with death and therefore risk death themselves. To convince them to do so someone had to persuade them about the whole idea of honor. As feminists denigrate this idea of honor they undermine a clever bit of poetry their ancient sisters wove out of words to protect themselves. But that idea could never have held up if the ladies could go and fuck anyone at all and then complain that they were raped. Since the men, to risk their own lives, had to believe they were defending something very precious, they couldn’t stand around arguing whether or not the sex was consensual. How could they still think they were upholding their honor if the women were just giving it away?

    But the idea that men always ruled the women is also a mistake. Women have their own honey power. Lady Macbeth is only an extreme case of something that happens every day. When the harem in the Ottoman Empire was at its largest, the regime was known as the rule of women. Greek mythology shows Zeus constantly trying to placate Hera. Much can be accomplished through pillow talk. Women’s wiles are quite as powerful as men’s strength, if not more so. The idea of honor and romantic love are women’s civilizing fictions that feminists have torn down.

    Real sex comes from desire, the desire to possess the other. That is the meaning of desire. Both men and women have this desire, but as you might expect, possession has a different meaning for each. Understood correctly, both succeed, but in quite different ways. The situation is complicated, as Blake understood:

    What is it men in women do require?
    The lineaments of gratified desire.
    What is it women in men require?
    The lineaments of gratified desire.

    We want powerful desire from the other, not wishy-washy discussion about who wants what, who likes what. A man truly hungry for a woman will have her unless father and brother intervene. And she will have him. Desire feeds desire. Blake’s little quatrain describes the desire of each feeding the other, each fuel for the other’s flame. For “require” means “desire.”

  111. I am a little disappointed that you didn’t mention the one thing that I think is really obvious and important about this subject: Love. Yup. Love. We used to think in terms of love. People used to call it “making love”. Then somewhere along the line it transformed into “having sex”. And with that change came the host of issues you have identified. But to me, making love is an art, and a reflection of the affection I feel for the woman that I love. I want to make love with her – not have sex with her. There’s a world of difference between those two. Maybe some day you will be fortunate enough to meet a man who hopes with all his heart to make love with you. Then, I think, you will understand what I mean. Maybe you already do. But you didn’t mention it, so I am left to suppose you don’t. And if not, then you are still living in the world of sex. And that is all about lust, and dominance, and predation. But the world of Love is very different from that. The opposite in fact. I hope you will not berate me for being a hopeless romantic when I say this. But that is how I feel. If you understand some day, I will be happy for you. Thank you for the article.

    • @ArtRebel….

      “I want to make love with her – not have sex with her.”

      Love is both. They are not mutually exclusive.

      Above all love is about passion. In a loving relationship, the sex is passionate. But to me passion brings out the lust, aggression, and the primal sexual side of me. That is what makes it so special and exhilarating.

  112. Even with the use of the terms ‘Cis’ and ‘rape culture’ I love this and if it were physically possible to do so I would have Alyssa’s babies.

    One thing though, it’s still telling men what to do about it. How about asking and listening?

  113. Your article, ‘The Danger in Demonizing Male Sexuality’ has moved me more than most of what I’ve been hearing about sexuality. It’s brilliant that you’ve managed to see and then clearly articulate this point of view. You provide hope that the search for intelligent life in the universe may be paying some dividends. Congratulations and many thanks.
    – ‘nuther non-agressive male in America

  114. Jules
    I agree . This is bad,it is exploitation and a sign that something is terribly wrong.
    And yes marriage is a sexual contract and an economic contract.

    it an sexual contract about not having sex with anyone else,and to share bed and table as we say here. For some it also a religious sacrament sex in marriage.

    Marriage has to do with sex . And this should not be perverted.
    I am sorry I get so upset with FlyingKal. But I do. And he was not married.

    When women get an education or learn skills that give them possibility to earn good money this can change, but then we have new problems with children that suffer if mama leave for work and never gets a change to be with her small babies.
    I see no solution.

    We must start to treat each other with respect and dignity sexually ! Women must treat men well sexually and with integrity and men must do the same. This means stay away from sexual relationship that is dishonest,and exploitive.
    And men have to learn to look for red flags when they date women just like women has learned to look for red flags.
    Asking about ” your number ” is not the best way to avoid unethical dishonest persons that want to use you.

    Life is hard. People use each other,that is what makes it hard to find the good partner.
    Some are even dangerous.

    I wish things were different and we all lived with integrity and had sex with persons we love.

    I am sorry I get I polite in discussions like this. It makes me upset.
    I fear being used,I always gets used. So this is personal.

    • Sorry abut all my typos
      ” I am sorry I get IMPOLITE in discussions like this”
      But no matter what I say , FlyingKal answers that I twist his words. His hostility is always 1mm from the surface.

      Maybe that is what he also said to his women when she tried to communicate with him. ” you twist my words”
      Some men are difficult to talk with,others are easy to talk with.

      He always feels misunderstood,and always tells me I twist his words.

      He is NOT the best communicator of men on this planet.
      And I will from now on stop communicating with men that complain that their woman reject them sexually. They should visit a sexologist instead of attacking the woman. If she refuses to seek help,then maybe her libido is sky high but she does not love the man she lives with.

      • @Iben…

        “They should visit a sexologist instead of attacking the woman. If she refuses to seek help,then maybe her libido is sky high but she does not love the man she lives with.”

        Yes. I tried all these things before opting for a divorce. She flatly refused.

        I really do think it is largely because while she might love him, she does not find him sexually attractive. Why? He does not know how to turn her on sexually, nor does he seek out professional help as you suggested. Dr. Engler agrees. She does interview the girlfriends and wives in some cases too.

        • Jules
          You are right he does not know how to turn her on sexually.

          And porn will not teach any man this art,because it is 24/7 activity. Maybe some are born with the right instincts and others have to learn after upbringing suppressed it?

          I think you need a streak of wildness,and a little bit of ruthlessness as well. It is an animal thing.
          And you have to show feelings,and that can be hard for many men.
          And as Brandy writes:” it takes aggression to penetrate a woman.”

    • @Iben…

      Hi Iben!

      I see things the way you do too. Men and women do need to show one another more respect and be more honest about their intentions. I could never marry a woman just for sex. Marriage was and is a Holy union where I made vows of love, honor, respect to God and my ex wife. Obviously, I broke the vow.

      Here in America, we as people are too extreme about things. We eat too much, we take too many drugs, we watch too much junk TV, we have too many cars, we have too many TVs……I think this romantic narrative by many women has gone too far too. We have women who feel entitled to everything. Anything less is considered “settling.”

      Men on the other hand, due to an assortment of reasons, are turning to porn. The number of escorts has doubled in the past 5 years. We even now have Ivy League educated escorts. My point is men are turning away from women and relationships. Some of this has to do with the double standard women use on men for sex: some men get a free pass while others must pass a litmus test. So many men just say too hell with it and opt out. Hence the high incel rate.

      The most frustrating aspect of all of this Iben is the sheer unwillingness of American women to engage in any serious discussion about this issue as you are doing. They are not adversely impacted to the degree men. So, it is just easier to dismiss the discussion through silence.

      On the male side, drop the porn, the prostitutes, the strip clubs etc. Whether people want to admit it or not, it leads to objectification and de-humanizing behavior and attitudes towards women.

      We are a shallow people. Teenage girls are getting boob jobs paid for by their parents. Now, nearly all women under 50 shave their vulva. Why? Porn and their belief that this is what men want. You have men who are disgusted by the site of pubic hair. Only a weakling and soft ass man would behave like this.

      I really get annoyed talking about it.

      • Hi Jules
        Here is what my Amrican woman friend sent me today. It made me laugh :

        WHY MEN HAVE A DOG AND NO WIFE

        1. The later you are, the more excited your dog is to see you.

        2. Dogs don’t notice if you call them by another dog’s name.

        3. Dogs like it if you leave a lot of things on the floor.

        4. A dog’s parents never visit.

        5. Dogs agree that you have to raise your voice to get your point across.

        6. Dogs find you amusing when you’re drunk.

        7. Dogs like to go hunting and fishing.

        8. A dog will not wake you up at night to ask, “If I died, would you get another dog?”

        9. If a dog has babies, you can put an ad in the paper and give them away.

        10.. A dog will let you put a studded collar on it without calling you a pervert.

        11.. If a dog smells another dog on you, they don’t get mad. They just think it’s interesting.

        And last… but not least:
        12. If a dog leaves, it doesn’t take half of your stuff.

        To test this theory: If you have a wife, lock her and your dog in the garage for an hour. Then open it…. and see who’s happy to see you

        ( personally I prefer cats. They like to cuddle,do not snor and love that I hold them in my arms all night…they are clean,sweet smelling,make no noise,have dignity and are sensual. They like to be near me without demanding ……. If they are abused they simply leave and find somebody else to love.)

        • @Iben…

          It is so funny. I am half way through the book, “men on my couch.”

          It is quite interesting and a good read. It’s funny that when you read the reviews on Amazon.com, the men like it much. But, the women are lukewarm to it.

          So far it has confirmed much of what I have discovered about female sexuality (driven by erotic, variety, novelty…etc). This is why I continue to assert that a man MUST always be a lover first to woman and then a husband. Otherwise the sex will die. Since this a quite difficult for most men, monogamy does not suit women very well. That novelty, variety, eroticism is best met by different men.

          However, it offers some very unique insights into male sexuality. Why men like prostitutes……I will finish it by Saturday. How men see women. Why men do not show vulnerability in relationships. It’s a great read. Thank you:)

          Cheers!

          • Jules
            I will give Brandy good review.

            Here is quote :
            ” I was surprised at how many of my male clients were anxious to the point of dysfunction over their desire to satisfy a woman”.

            I wonder
            The book is good and I hope she will write more books.

            • @Iben…

              Sounds like Paul? I think. The one who could not keep an erection for his wife.

              This is certainly not my case. A woman’s presence relaxes me. Thus, I rarely nervous when it comes to sex. I am too relaxed and excited to be anxious and nervous.

              What I like about Dr. Engler is she is willing to challenge the conventional wisdom. She is always questioning what many have assumed about men, male sexuality, etc.
              It was awful how the guy referred to the prostitutes as “non beings.” This is the mindset that allow men to engage in this kind of behavior.

          • Hi Jules
            You write:
            ✺,” This is why I continue to assert that a man
            MUST always be a lover first to woman and then a husband”✺

            I wonder if dr.Engler will agree with you?
            You already know how to be a good husband Jules. You were married for a long time(10-15 years?). Your wife did not divorce you. Lots of women initiate divorce,your wife never did. This means you are already a good husband.

            Now you develop into a better lover as well ,and one day I think you will see that you can integrate the two. Husband and lover. It must be possible. I hope it is possible.

            Because women like men as a protector,and men are said to have some instincts to protect women and children. Somehow I feel men as husbands are men as protectors. And that is why men from other cultures than ours can be immensely sexually attractive to women. They have some well developed sense of being protective of women. Maybe I use the wrong English words to express this. I can not express this in words.

            Or is that only a myth? I don’t think that is only a myth.

  115. I like the article.
    The only fear that i have is that this dialogue and inclusion of male voices on sex will be very narrow. Basically to what feminists want to hear, and what men think they can get away with. Not whats on their mind.

    One thing that I think a lot of men wants to talk about is this phenomenon of:
    1.Ignoring the double standards in dating. Specially if they are positive for women.
    2. Say that these double standards are win/win
    3. Justify all of this with a lot of just world fallacies, all of that in a vicious cycle.
    (We should have some sort of theory name for this, something something theory?)Here is why I don’t think that we will have that discussion, especially with feminists: Most feminists seem to agree or like that this is happening. Just see how many of them like doctor nerdlove on this very site.
    I don’t think that I would be able to trust that this discussion will be dictated and led by a lot of figureheads. And that any discussion we will have will be twisted so that nobody will upset the apple cart.

    Question:
    Wouldn’t be better if we men just put up a lot of ultimatums. Like womens movement did? They didn’t get their way or got their voices heard by asking men nicely. Shouldn’t we men do the same?

    • While the pseudo-feminism you describe was dominant for far too long, it’s losing its grip (thank God!).

      As to “putting up a lot of ultimatums,” no. That will get you nowhere, even with androphiles like me, and I’ll tell you why: feminism is rooted in a genuine, legitimate struggle against oppression. We had every right to stand up and demand change, and many of us were brutalized for doing so. Now, it’s true that once legal equality was won, the movement went a bit psycho and started making unreasonable demands. However, neither that fact nor the fact of (mostly) legal equality negate the reality that men are still privileged, even if no longer oppressive. You have no standing to issue ultimatums.

      • I have to disagree.

        The things that harm men may not be the same as what happens to women but us sharing gender with the few elite doesn’t negate the need for direct action. I think that’s a part of the problem. Men are expected to nice, something that is expected of no other group that wants change.

        I’m sorry about the way women were treated but I don’t think that is grounds for determining how men need to act when working for change.

      • @Megan…

        You are true voice of reason. You are also correct in what you say.

        I am a feminist man. However, I support the ” genuine, legitimate struggle against oppression.”
        This other psycho stuff like “rape culture”….is just plain silly.

      • Megan. You can say that about most movements and most ultimatums for social change. Every social change we have made have started from a place of scorn and mockery. Every right we have as westerners have come from people that have broken some law or taboo in the past.
        As I see it, the idea that we men can’t criticize or demand a better culture from women, because some theories about privilege are as stupid as women not having any of their rights because Eve got her and Adam booted out of paradise.

      • Why are you an androphile. And please do not act like women held zero privilege….do remember that our history is full of wars that women were largely protected from if they were not in the occupied area whilst men had their agency removed and were thrown into battle. Freedom is one of the biggest privileges in life.

      • OirishM says:

        While the pseudo-feminism you describe was dominant for far too long, it’s losing its grip (thank God!).

        Who is to say it is not feminism? As I mentioned to you in another thread, there is no clear indicator of what feminism actually IS, and merely conflating your personal conception of feminism with “true” feminism is not convincing.

        As to “putting up a lot of ultimatums,” no. That will get you nowhere, even with androphiles like me, and I’ll tell you why: feminism is rooted in a genuine, legitimate struggle against oppression. We had every right to stand up and demand change, and many of us were brutalized for doing so. Now, it’s true that once legal equality was won, the movement went a bit psycho and started making unreasonable demands. However, neither that fact nor the fact of (mostly) legal equality negate the reality that men are still privileged, even if no longer oppressive. You have no standing to issue ultimatums.

        You have no standing to dictate that men’s issues are not oppressive, even if the magnitude is difference. You do not have a monopoly on the word. And if this was a women’s issues discussion, saying “hey, that’s not oppression, more important issues exist” would be denounced in a trice as “derailing”.

        Many men’s issues are consequences of the patriarchy, as are women’s issues. Why should they not be considered oppression also? Why should they not be opposed with a vehemence like women’s issues? The issue gender roles within dating may be comparatively minor, but who said you get to draw arbitrary lines in the sand about what is and is not oppressive? It is also far from the most severe men’s issue out there either.

    • Hi Nistan
      Can you explain what you mean by the double standards in dating?
      Is it that women must be passive and man must be active and take initiative ?
      Or is it something else you think of?

      Money? Men pay all the bills while dating in America?

      The fact that American women can date many men at the same time,like we do not were I live?

      Or it’s the double standard Jules talks about where he think some men will easily get sex while others have to go through long periods of courtship to prove they are worthy as boyfriend ?

      Or are there even more double standards ?

      • Hi Iben, om jag förstår dig rätt så är du Norska? Jag är svensk själv 
        It’s all of those examples you gave and more!
        It’s about an attitude as well. A man and a woman goes to a date. Both are nervous. The date leads nowhere. This is how the date is interpreted, from feminists to traditionalists, the guy was at fault because it was on him to make sure that the date went somewhere. He is also at fault for making the girl nervous. This is extremely unfair.

        If we want to talk about sex and relationships as an egalitarian space where both parties work togheter for a win/win goal, then women have responsibilities.
        Women can’t just see men as a sexual being only when men approach. They HAVE to learn to take responsibility of their own sexuality and learn to proactively se men as sexy.
        Women can’t just expect men to make them comfortable without chipping in as well.
        Women do not have a monopoly on how to communicate as well. This one is kind of hilarious. Women complain that men are so ‘clueless’ about their signals. At the same time they complain about nice guys and that they do not send out clear signals.

        • Hei Nistan
          Ja jeg er norsk.
          Give me a week or two and I will share with you some of my thoughts about this based on the last times I rejected men that wanted a date or let a good man slip away because I did not take the initiative.
          And I believe you are right,women must change our attitudes about this.
          We are already discussing it.

  116. Stereotypes damage us by limiting the way we look at a group as a whole. What bigger groups are there than male and female? If we continue to make the man the predator, we tell a whole 50% of our population (the women) that approaching and pursuing a man makes you, the woman, less than what you should be.

    On the male side of that coin, we don’t treat men how to gracefully accept or not accept female advances. And left with no direction, they handle things poorly.

    Ah, how to fix the big problems….

  117. Klyingkal
    I think you and I talk about two different things.

    Somebody here (maybe Tim )repeatedly tells us that women are only attracted to 25-30% of all men in their society.

    I interpret this as he say women do not want sex with,can not fall in love with,do not desire, can not be turned on by more than 25-30% of all men in their society. But they live with men,simply to exploit them economically or emotionally . Or enjoy living with men as if they were brothers and sisters.

    Well,I don’t think so.

    And since more than 25-30% of women cohabitation or are married,this means lots and lots women fake,and behave like prostitutes in their marriage. Or refuse any sexual contact from day one.

    How can this be possible in 2013. This is not the eighteen or nineteen century marriages we have today? Or is it?

    A fall in desire and lido for both men and women in the western world is not the same phenomena,but I agree they are related.

    To discuss why some in sexless marriages is important.

    This month a read about a doctor desertion in my country about why men marry today .
    They married if they had economic gain,otherwise they prefers to cohabited with their woman.

    Interesting don’t you think?

    • FlyingKal says:

      Hi again, Iben.

      I think you and I talk about two different things
      Yes, I’m pretty sure we are, most of the time. Even if I don’t know what you are thinking about with this particular remark since I don’t know what you are replying to 😉

      I don’t think there’s a lot of people who *refuse* sexual contact from day one. However, it seems to be something like a fast and/or steady decline in the interest, once the committed and mutually exclusive state has begun. But if it’s all talk and no action, if a woman says every morning before they go to work “I can’t wait to see you naked tonight!” but then just crash in front of the TV with no interest (and no explanation!) whatsoever, with nothing else to do, -every-single-night! How else are you supposed to interpret her behaviour other than A) she’s not particularly attracted to her man, or B) She’s not very interested in sex at all??

      Forgive me if I’m wrong, but I seem to recall that you said yourself that you were never told (by your parents?) that sex was suposed to be important in a marriage?
      Well, I don’t think that,s something you should need to be told. I think if you have a sex drive, this is something you actually figure out for yourself.
      This is 2013, as you say. How can it still be possible that people don’t know if they are interested in sex or not?

      This month a read about a doctor desertion in my country about why men marry today .
      They married if they had economic gain,otherwise they prefers to cohabited with their woman.
      Interesting don’t you think?

      I don’t know what a desertion is (but I can guess).
      But anyway, I think that the question of marriage vs. cohabitation is of far less interest than the question about (mutual) attraction, and the ability/possibility of “obtaining” a partner in the first place.

      • @FlyingKal…

        I think you touched upon the central issue: sexual attraction while married. Or a more broad question as you say of mutual attraction. Yet, it is something the vast majority of women here just refuse to address. I think it is easier for a lot of women to just dismiss any serious discussion. After all, I think as far as sex is concerned, most do not find that to be a challenge.

        I am divorced so going down the marriage road again is simply not an option. Cohabitation? Maybe.

        Just my opinion I guess.

        • FlyingKal says:

          Thank you, Jules.

          Yes, it’s a discussion that’s hard to pinpoint. I’ve been trying to bring it up on other discussion boards, more or less dedicated to relationship issues, and also seen other, mostly men do the same. But most of the times it’s dealt with by deflection or dismission, trying to assign the problem to an arbitrary aspect of the total life situation and then dealing with that arbitrary aspect instead.

        • Hi Jules

          I understand you.
          And women should be honest Jules.
          But there is no secret conspiracy among women to hide” the truth ” from men. And you Jules nearly see women sexuality as demonized just like some women see men’s sexuality as demonized.

          Why don’t we ask dr.Brandy Engler to write an article here on GMP about this?
          This is her speciality , learn woman how to bring back their libidos if they have problems.
          She will use other words but this is how I understand her.

          Then we can hope for a fruitful debate.

          I am in contact with her,and will send her a few words later this summer.

          • @Iben….

            I think your comments are fair. Believe it or not, I am a fair and open minded man.

            I am reading Dr. Engler’s book as I write! I am up to Alex. I love the book!

            Next, I am going to read “What Do Women Want?…….” by Daniel Bergner. It deals with female sexuality. It is supposedly a bit more scientific and scholarly.

            So, by the end of next week, I can compare and contrast the two books. More importantly, I hope to have gained some valuable insights and understanding that will make me a better man and person.

            Cheers!

            • Hi Jules
              I will read the book.
              Here is my last thoughts befor I withdraw:

              This guy Flyingkal lives with a woman but also used porn regularly. She knows nothing. He is totally dishonest about it.

              How can you use porn and think it will not leave an imprint,and not have an effect your sex life and your intimate relationship with the woman you share your life with?

              How stupid! Sorry,but this is so unintelligent I will call it stupid.

              Maybe she got disgusted with the man sexually because he came to her with his head filed with porn,and all she sensed was how :” this is not love”. This is weird……..he is dirty somehow…..

              How naive can you be to think you can use porn in secret and hide it from your partner and it does not affect you as a lover?
              How naive can you be that you do not understand how this sexual relationship has more than two persons,it has she+him+and all the persons he masturbated with between the days he had sex with her.

              For some women this is OK,but for others it is a turn off and he will never be able to turn her on again. So men that use porn in secret in their relationship like FlyingKal tells he did will never get any sympathy from me when they are a total failure as lovers.

              But what dr.Engler write about porn is interesting. She is good!

              • FlyingKal says:

                Iben,
                You don’t know anything about me. You have made up your mind about what kind of person I am and there’s nothing I can do about that.
                But, could you at least have the courtesy to not spread lies about me when you think I’m not reading…?

                • FlyingKal
                  I DO expect you have a smartphone like all the rest of us .

                  Since you asked me questions I tried to answer some of them.

                  I shall stop communicating with you.

                  But you have told us on GMP that you used porn in secret while you lived with this woman. So this is not lies spread by me,it is me remembering what you have told about yourself.

                  • FlyingKal says:

                    As far as I can remember, what I said was that I started to use porn long AFTER our sex life had dried up, Therefore I’m pretty sure it didn’t effect our sexlife or my performace as a lover to her…

                    If you have other information about me, I’m sure you can point it out. Otherwise I would expect an excuse from you for calling me disgusting and an idiot…

                    Other than that, we have both repeatedly said that we should ignore each others comments. So why would I waste my vacation time answering your posts here, regardless of what kind of phone or internet connection I use?

      • Hi FlyingKal

        The woman you lived with promised sex,but then refused.
        I do not know her,and can not understand her.
        You will never find an answer to your question FlyingKal. Did she had a low sex drive,was she inhibited,did she love you, are you lousy in bed, or was she a surviver of former rape or sexual abuse? Maybe. She sounds sexually inhibited. Very inhibited.

        You must move on and find a new woman to love.

        Yes you remember correctly . My parents never talked with me about marriage. Or men. Or sex. Or dating. Or how to choose the right partner to share your life with.

        I married young but was not a virgin,and had amazing sex in my first love relationship that lasted for three years. I knew what was sex was.

        But mating in captivity is one thing,teenage sex life with a boyfriend is something else. And I married without thinking about how well suited my husband and I was sexually . Or if we were suited at all.

        Later I also learned he married for sex but I married to have a family,one to share my life with,have a home,a man to love, security …

        I saw sex as one part of that marriage but not the most important part. For him it was the most important thing,for me it was not. When i left him I asked why he had married me .He told me that he had married me :” to have you here when I wanted to have sex with you”.

        And since I had absolutely no problems sexually to have vaginal orgasm during sex I did not expect sex trouble in marriage. I was naive. I was terribly naive , immature,and stupid.

        Did I as young bride question myself if I had a sex drive or not? No I did not. I was pretty wild in bed and why should I worry about the level of my sex drive?
        And what is a ” normal” sex drive FlyingKal? Can you tell me that ?

        I agree with you that the question of mutual attraction and how to find a suitable partner is important. That is why i wish my parents had talked with me about this.Who we choose to share our life with,and build a family with is one the most important choices we make in life.

        Maybe the most important choice we make. And some of us make that choice before we are emotionally mature enough. I was immature.
        And it was nothing wrong with my sex drive.

        Dr. Phil say we are not mature enough to choose a partner to marry until we around 30.
        So now you are old enough to choice wisely and so am I.

        • FlyingKal says:

          Iben,

          You will never find an answer to your question FlyingKal. Did she had a low sex drive,was she inhibited,did she love you, are you lousy in bed, or was she a surviver of former rape or sexual abuse? Maybe. She sounds sexually inhibited. Very inhibited.

          I firmly believe there’s been enough “testimonies” here, both by me and by others who have experienced the same, to see that her behaviour can’t solely be attributed to her individually.
          She may have had a low sex drive, but I never noticed when we started dating.
          Did she love me? At least she said so.
          I may be lousy in bed, but she never complained about it, I gave her 5 times the attention and 5 times the number of orgasms that she gave me, and afterwards she used to rhetorically ask why we didn’t do this more often. Much like (the few) other women I’ve had sex with…

          Can I ask you, what did you expect when you say you didn’t marry (primarly) for sex, but you had an amazing sex life in a previous relationship? Because this is exactly what Jules, I, and others have pointed out in this and other discussions. That security (that you sought…) and love does not breed lust and sexual attraction, but rather the opposite.
          Why do people (women) lower their expectations for sex, which they know can be “amazing”, when they enter a relationship that’s supposed to be for life, compared to what they previously had?!
          And how and why do they expect their husband/partner to just be satisfied and go along with the limits they set for themselves?

          I don’t know what a *normal* sex drive is, nor could I care less!
          What’s important to me is that people entering a long-term relationship have sex drives that are somewhat matching to each other, that they are honest about it, and that they are able and allowed to communicate about it!

          Oh, and you can also tell Dr Phil that being 30 or above does in no way alleviate this behaviour… 😉

          I have moved on. (Why are you projecting feelings of anger and resentment onto me, just beause I’m sharing my experiences?)
          As a matter of fact, I have moved on so far that noone’s catching up.
          You asked previously why me and so many other men claim to be unattractive. So let’s flip that sentiment around, shall we?
          I am a very attractive man. But no one is acknowledging that I am. Is there really a difference?
          If you live with a person for 5 years or more who says a lot but never bring that talk in to action. Who never in that period of time says “I’m (sexually) attracted to you!” or “Take me to bed, I want to have sex with you, right now!”. Not maybe, in a couple of hours, tomorrow or sometime next week. But right here right now! What feelings do you think that create?

          Anyway… Now I am off to vacation. I can maybe sneak in one more answer today, but then I’ll be gone for a couple of weeks. so take care everybody.

          • Hi FlyingKal

            Vi snakker forbi hverandre.
            I hope you enjoy your vaction in spit of the rainy weather. The fjords are beautiful.

            Right now I try to figure out how a man can have sex with a woman and give her five times more orgasms than he has himself.

            I shall try not to be negative.But tell me how did you make love……or how did you have sex….or how did you fuck? I am too inexperienced to understand.

            I do not understand how that is possible.
            I try to use my imagination but I can not figure out how the two of you had sex….unless she totally refused vaginal penetration,and disliked it so much that she refused .Then I can guess how you had sex.

            Sex is not primary about ” giving each other orgasm” the way I see it. If that was the aim,we could just jump into bed with just anybody willing to “give us orgasm”. Or even fix it ourselves . But I think we still will not understand each other . Vi snakker forbi hverandre.

            • FlyingKal says:

              @Iben;
              Right now I try to figure out how a man can have sex with a woman and give her five times more orgasms than he has himself.

              It’s not very diifcult or advanced at all. Oral sex, among a few other things.

        • @Iben…

          Wow!!…What a deep thinking and intelligent woman you are. Why can’t I find many American women like you? Seriously.

          I married after 30 but had limited sexual experience prior to marriage; just 3 women. My first was at age 21 while in university.

          I was naive and simply lacked both knowledge and understanding. But, as you stated we have to move on in life. It is difficult, especially if you loved the woman you divorced, as was my case.

          I hope you had a terrific vacation Iben.

        • Iben

          When i left him I asked why he had married me .He told me that he had married me :” to have you here when I wanted to have sex with you”.

          That is the story of countless young men who get married

          If men could obtain sex as easily as women, they would be in a much better position to decide whether they really want to marry or not. It is a shame that men have to marry in order to ensure a regular sex life.

          At 27, even I sometimes feel compelled to consider marriage because of my desire for sex and physical intimacy, despite the fact I abhor marriage and commitment. It is a big dilemma for me at this stage of my life. But I know it is

          the only feasible way for me because I’m not hot / great looking enough to have flings, short term /no strings sexual relationships, FwB, etc.

          I repeat: A man who can easily obtain sex and physical intimacy is in a much better position to decide whether he really wants marriage/LTR or not, than a man who cant.

    • FlyingKal
      Excuse all my typos. I try to write this one more time:

      I think you and I talk about two different things.
      Somebody here (maybe Tim )repeatedly tells us that women are only attracted to 25-30% of all
      men in their society.
      I interpret this as he say women do not want sex with,can not fall in love with,do not desire, can not be turned on by more than 25-30% of all men in their society. But they live with men,simply
      to exploit them economically or emotionally . Or enjoy living with men as if they were brothers
      and sisters, love the man but do not desire him.

      .Well,I don’t think so. And since more than 25-30% of women live with a man, this means lots and lots
      women fake,and behave like prostitutes in their marriage. Or they live with a man but refuse any sexual contact from day
      one. How can this be possible in 2013. This is not the eighteen or nineteen century marriages we have
      today? Or is it?

      A fall in desire and libido for both men and women in the western world is not the same
      phenomena but I agree they are related.

      This month a read about a doctor dissertation in my country about why men today marry or choose cohabitation instead of marriage.

      Lots of men only marry if they had economic gain from marriage. Norway in 2013

      • FlyingKal says:

        Hi Iben,

        As I said in my last post:
        1) I don’t think it’s a refusal for sexual contact from day one. More of a steady, and more or less rapid, decline that begins when they are committed to a relationship to someone they may not feel all that sexually attracted to, to begin with. What do you think?

        2) I say the same thing. This is 2013, how can adult people NOT be aware of their sexual desires and preferences, or not know whether they are interested in sex or not?

        3) The question about marriage vs. cohabitation is not really an issue here.

        • Hi FlyingKal

          You write:
          ✺1) I don’t think it’s a refusal for sexual contact from day one. More of a steady, and more
          or less rapid, decline that begins when they are committed to a relationship to someone
          they may not feel all that sexually attracted to, to begin with. ✺

          Some MEN and some women want to share their life with a partner they are not wild about sexually,for all sorts of reasons. They have other needs they feel are more important,like the need for security or the need never to be abandoned or betrayed. The women you meet will have all sorts of needs,and not everybody have sex as their number one need I life,like you have.

          If your deepest emotional need is to be desired sexually then it is fine that you aware of it and find a partner that can fulfill you deepest need.
          But this need for sex can be a cover for all sorts of deeper emotional needs,like the need for love.

          It is easier to relate to men that are in contact with their feeling,than horny wordless men. The men that never express any feelings but wants sex,and more sex,and even more sex.

          Why do you never talk about love FlyingKal?
          All you talk about is sex and this mystery that your ex did not want sex with you.

          And you write :
          ✺This is 2013, how can adult people NOT be aware of their sexual
          desires and preferences, or not know whether they are interested in sex or not? ✺

          If you think all adult are 100% in contact with their feelings,totally connected sexually and deeply aware of all their feelings and desires then you are wrong. What on earth gave that idea? Do you think we all grew up in a sex positive society with healthy attitudes and values about sex? Free and inhibited ?

          If you did FlyingKal then you are one of he few lucky ones. But your inability to understand women indicate that you are not so perfect yourself as you want to believe.

          As long as refuse to look at yourself and your own role in this failed love relationship you will never get anywhere. As long as all you see is faults with her, faults with her libido,faults with her sex drive,faults with her ability to respond to you sexually , then you will never grow and learn how to relate to women successfully. Take a look at yourself FlyingKal. Start with yourself and stop blaming your partner. It takes two to tango.

          Men that complain about sex, demand sex, get angry when they do not get enough sex, show irritation and even become revengeful when they do not get as much sex as they want are not attractive to women.
          They turn us off. They can frighten us,and this behavior is shooting yourself in the foot.
          For many women this is red flags telling us that this man is trouble. They are men that can not handle rejection.

          The way you handle rejection is a sign of your emotional health.

          And as far as I know few human beings belong in the category “not interested in sex”. Few are asexual.

          For me the question of marriage vs cohabiting is interesting because many men in discussions on GMP say all women want is a breadwinner and their wallet ,and a man to have children with ,but they do not desire this man. And I understand men’s fear for entering into this trap !

          • FlyingKal says:

            Iben,
            I don’t think that you actually live in a world that is this black-and-white, binary as you seem to be doing when you write your answers.
            But you keep misinterpreting me, putting words to my posts before answering them that I never wrote myself.

            1) I have said I wanted a relationship with some kind of sexual attraction and activity.
            That does not automatically mean that sex is my number one need or priority in life, nor have I ever said so!

            2) There exists many many steps or nuances *between* “not knowing that sex is important in a marriage/supposedly romantic relationship”, and being ” 100% in contact with ones feelings”.
            And frankly, if you don’t see that there is, or if you just are trying to deflect or dismiss my position by projecting or misrepresenting it (as I said above) instead of trying to have a discussion in good faith, I really don’t see any point in continuing this.

            But as I said, goodbye for now.

            • @FlyingKal…

              I don’t think Iben is trying to deflect or dismiss you. Quite the contrary. She is doing what 95% of the women on GMP refuse to do: engage a man in good faith and earnest discussion of this issue.

              Have you noticed that Joanna, Erin, and to a lesser extent Sarah have NOT chimed on this discussion. Neither of these women have even questioned, responded, or commented on much of what Iben has written. It is very telling. Why? Because Iben is truly trying to have a good faith discussion. They find it easier to be dismissive via silence. Plus, Iben is not being politically correct in their minds.

              I know the “talks” were between you two. Sorry for butting in. However, I think you are making a mistake in thinking Iben is projecting and misrepresenting….She is trying to get to the bottom of it all. She is trying to be helpful in my view.

              I will never turn away help.

              Just saying.

            • Hi FlyingKal

              It is true I get annoyed with you because I see nothing in you that expresses tenderness or compassion for the women you lived with.
              And some other time maybe you will share with us what is your most important need that is not sex?

              I guess you hate me by now but that is OK.
              One day you may develop sexual dysfunction, lets us hope your partner will love you just as much as before . Men sometimes become impotent.

              Your reaction to me saying this will again be that I twist everything you say.
              It is not my intention to twist and distrust everything you say FlyingKal. We are not on the same wavelength.

              I express my feeling and you do not like them. That is also OK. I am not here to please you,I tried to communicate with you in a language that is not my first language .i failed.
              It is not easy to talk about these issues online FlyingKal,and I still do not know what kind of answers you are looking for.

              Sexologists can answer all your question . Why don’t you visit one instead of asking us that nothing know about sexual problems ?

              We are amateurs here and all I can offer is my own lived life with all my failings.
              I gave of my time to you and it was not to tear you down or bash you emotionally. I would have said the same to a brother even if it was cruel words.

              • FlyingKal says:

                It’s 4 in the morning, leaving for Norway in a few hours and I can’t sleep, so what the heck…

                Iben,
                I too have English as my second language. And it’s very possible I’m making a lousy job of expressing myself as well.
                However, the issue is that you seem to make the worst possible interpretation of almost everything I write. Quite often making connections that my wildest imagination could not come up with. (Like when I said that I hoped that every sexual act should be consentual and mutually satisfactory for everyone involved, to which you just replied that you guessed that I was for prostitution then… I still have no idea what those issues have to do with each other.)

                And mostly, the thing is that every time I’ve tried to say “That is not what I meant”, your imagination or presumptions about my opinions and behaviour just seem to run away even further in the same direction…
                That is one of the things that tells me that the language is probably not the main issue here.

                Remember a little while ago, you said that you liked me because I asked you what YOU wanted out of a relationship, and noone ever asked you that before?
                Well, do you actually believe that I have been several years in a relationship without ever asking the same question many many times?
                How many times do you think I asked “What do YOU want?”, “Is there something I can do?”, Is there something WE can do?”

            • Hi FlyingKal

              Sexologists can answer ALL your question . Why don’t you visit one instead of asking us amateurs? These are complicated questions.

              I guess you hate me by now but that is OK.
              One day you may develop sexual dysfunction, lets us hope your partner will love you just as much as before and not leave you or get irritated when you reject her sexually.

              But I hope that will never happen to you,and that you will grow into old age as sexually active as
              Picasso.

              • This was technical problems.
                Time to unplug….

              • FlyingKal says:

                @Iben:
                Sexologists can answer ALL your question . Why don’t you visit one instead of asking us amateurs? These are complicated questions

                I’m not asking you. YOU are the one who came on here and said that you had no idea that so many men felt unwanted and unattractive, and wanted to know and learn more about our feelings. I tried my best to share and answer YOUR questions, but all you have done is a projection of your own experiences onto me.

      • @Iben…

        You write,

        “I interpret this as he say women do not want sex with,can not fall in love with,do not desire, can not be turned on by more than 25-30% of all men in their society. But they live with men,simply
        to exploit them economically or emotionally . Or enjoy living with men as if they were brothers
        and sisters, love the man but do not desire him.

        .Well,I don’t think so. And since more than 25-30% of women live with a man, this means lots and lots
        women fake,and behave like prostitutes in their marriage. Or they live with a man but refuse any sexual contact from day
        one. How can this be possible in 2013. This is not the eighteen or nineteen century marriages we have
        today? Or is it?”

        I have a good female friend who is married. She is about 11 years younger than her husband of 54. She told me they have not had sex in over three years! She has cheated with at least three men I know.

        We use to work together from 1997 to 2002. Then we lost track….We reconnected three years ago. So, in the three years, she has had three lovers. Every one of the men were losers, sexual perverts,…One pressured her to have a threesome with another man. She refused and he hit her!

        My point is just how is it that she does not feel for her husband. I have never asked her. She does not want to divorce him because her living standard would drop. She keeps saying she needs to find a man with money! Meanwhile, she seeks out lovers.

        I really do believe here in America that many women marry the wrong man, intentionally. Why? Because they want the American dream. House with white picket fence, two kids….It’s all about show and what SHE wants Iben.

        http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jennifer-gauvain/doubts-before-marriage_b_919868.html

        I seek knowledge and an understanding of what is going on with this lack of sex in marriage in America. No one should marry just for sex. It is crazy and immature. But, sex is an important part of marriage.

  118. Thank you! Its a topic thats irked me for years. Every time I mention that I hate seeing guys portrayed as idiots or predators I get the side look. Hope this attitude is finally changing….its been so annoying.

  119. Gilgamesh23 says:

    Thank you.
    -A Cis Male

  120. The advise to men here is good, but there also needs to be advise to women. The “dating game” is a two-way street and men can’t escape the role of “predator” unless women also change how they approach their role in the male-female sex-dating dynamic.
    It’s no good for men to change the way that they think and act towards women, if women aren’t also changing the way that they think and act towards men.

  121. Hi FlyingKal

    Thank you for the link about professor Bente Træen that tell us that most Scandinavian married and cohabitation couples now have sex 1-2 times a week but earlier they had 2-3 times a week. So this falling libido is not only an American phenomena.
    Bente Træen explains this as a result of stress in both men and women.

    This issue of low desire in women was also dr. Brandy Engler’s dissertation.
    I am sorry I misspelled dr. Brandy Engler’s name . Sometimes I wonder if I am slightly dyslectic.

    Dr.Brandy Engler has written many good articles here on GMP. She is a sexologist and wrote her dissertation on low desire in women.
    Has she written about this issue here on GMP?

    I will send her an e-mail about this and ask if she will share some of her knowledge with us later on.

    • Iben…

      “the men on my couch” -Dr. Brandy Engler

      I am up to Alex. I love this book.

      Thanks for sharing.

      Hopefully, you are having a great time on your vacation!

  122. Hi Matt
    I hope this thread will be running also after the summer for us living up north. I am on vaction and can not follow the debate.

    But let me say this:” WOW!”
    In The Huffington I read the comments after the article about the single mother and her weekend with Lou.
    Many women wrote;” send me Lou …send Lou to me”.

    I hope women reading your thoughts ,insights and reflections say:” send Matt to me!”.

    And I hope I can comment in all this later this summer. Here is one thing I liked a lot:

    ✺ “think it’s primarily between those seeking the healthy and those seeking the unhealthy, the sincere and the avaricious, the sensitive and the insensitive” ✺
    I am so glad you are here and share your insight with us.

    • You’re too kind, Iben! I am interested in seeing what other discussions might occur here, too. Enjoy your vacation!

      Matt

  123. Hi Jules

    Yes I will.
    I have browsed through Dr. Brandy Engel’s book :” the men on my coach” today.
    She answers many of the questions you asks. I can recommend it,and it is not expensive,
    Good summer to you and the woman with the pink pen.

    • Iben…

      Thank you very much. She also has a purple pen too!
      Good luck to you on finding love. I have not given up. Just still seeking and searching.

  124. Hi Tim
    Just a few words before I go in vacation.
    For me to discuss this with you I need documentation !

    Please come forth with recent reliable research published in scientific journals that most scientist respect .
    I want this sort of evidences . Because I do not believe you are right. So you have to convince me.

    To me it sounds strange to hear you say that women marry men they do not want to make love to.
    As far as I know( but I know little) most couples have sex 2-3 times a week in Scandinavia.

    If you are right you have come up with evidence.
    And please do not come with ” research ” done by Durex,or dating sites. Or ” research ” based on questions asked to women about men’s attractions by showing them photos . Women do not choose partners in real life based on photos. We base it on smell and a lot of deep feelings we are nearly even aware of when we are near them. Adam can tell you more about that.

    Then we can talk when summer holidays are over.
    I look forward to it Tim!
    But I see a typo. I should have writes:” women want men they respect” . That is dr. brandy Engels words .
    I have bought her book :” the men on my coach” and will read it this summer. Then I will know a lot more about men and their erotic dreams…

  125. Iben

    In light of the link Jules has posted about the single mom, I would like to remind you of a discussion we had few weeks ago.

    http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/hesaid-how-do-men-think-about-sex-anyway/

    I was making a similar point that women truly find very few men sexually desirable and those men are like the guy described in the article, Lou. Women have flings, affairs, and casual relationships with men like these and many of these women go on to marry men they are not that sexually enthusiastic about.

    I said that the way things are, a large percentage of women are not that sexually attracted to their husbands and LT bf’s. They wouldn’t have considered them for a wild passionate convenient fling that is only reserved for men who are top quality in looks. But they marry them anyway because they have more redeeming qualities necessary for stability.

    In response you said something I’d like to reproduce here.

    You have some strange ideas …

    If your hypothesis was correct,then no man could be both sexually attractive and successful in society at the same time (and worthy of marriage.)

    Your writing implies that women live double life’s. That they have a secret sex life with some guys they don’t want to marry. Some dark hidden forbidden sex with X……

    And then an official sex life with ordinary boring men that they cohabit with or are married to.

    WHO are these men women have their forbidden wild sex life with?

    Are they your buddies that brag about their conquests and tell you about how wild women are with them?

    Or is this your experience with women? Are you one of these men women have wild fantastic sex with but never wants to marry?

    Why do I get the impression that you are not the fortunate one to experience sex with a woman that is crazy about you sexually?

    and

    What do you know about female sexuality and desire Tim? how can you be a specialist on how women think and feel about sexuality and desire? To me you come across as a bitter man

    and then

    Women like to have sex with men who respect them

    • @Tim..

      Here is another link from HP. I gives men 10 things NOT to do….

      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/melanie-curtin/ten-things-to-avoid-when-_b_3447210.html?utm_hp_ref=women&ir=Women

      Below is an excerpt from her piece,

      “Nobody wants to fuck Mr. Nice Guy. So stop being him if you want to fuck.”

      Oh well, thought I would share this one too.

      • PursuitAce says:

        Another example of having to be the right person to say the right thing. A guy says this and he’s a misogynist. Melanie Curtin says so and it’s “you go girl”. And this isn’t just a gendered issue. It’s also a power and status issue. If you’re somebody you’re always a little (or a lot) smarter, funnier, hipper, more attractive, etc. than the rest of us. The BS flag should just about fly the highest for this reality.
        My comment to Melanie would be, “I’m a nice guy. I like being a nice guy. Being something else would be like going over to the enemy. If not getting laid is the price for my authenticity then I’m cool with that. How about you?”

  126. I think this topic is so, so important, and I am sure this article was written with the best of intentions, but I must say I find a certain irony in the fact that, while the author praises Sabrina Morgan for noticing that “cis” men feel that nobody wants to hear what they have to say about sex, she herself has written an article about male sexuality which is completely devoid of men having anything to say about sex, and which, having omitted this aspect, concludes with a list of instructions for men.

    There is no doubt that it is difficult to be a conscious, sensitive woman in our culture. It is also difficult to be a conscious sensitive man in our culture. American men are expected to be strong, sensitive, smart, supportive, driven, available, active, attentive, assertive, receptive. And, like women, I think they are told how to be more than they are asked how they are.

    It is really important that men understand how it is for women, and in particular, how women experience them. I think it is equally important for women to understand how it is for men — and how men experience them.

    I suppose it could be argued that women’s interest in what men have to say goes without saying. However, I’m not sure that it does go without saying, and I certainly think it’s unfortunate if it not only goes without saying, but it goes without doing.

    • Matt
      Can you write more?

      • Hi, Iben,

        Yes. About what, specifically?

        • Matt
          Anything about this issue that you feel is important. Like for example when you say:
          ✺” I think it is equally important for women to understand how it is for men — and how men experience them.”✺

          But also other thoughts and feeling this article trigger in you is of interest for many of us.

          • Thanks for asking. Clearly I’m dropping into a larger much larger discussion, and the topic is very, very complicated. Also, I’m realizing that I’m not sure I posted my comment in the right place. I meant it to be a response to the article itself, but it may have posted as a reply to someone else’s comment. I find the tree structure a little hard to navigate.

            But anyway, here goes. For my $.02, here are some reflections which I haven’t yet tied together into a thesis:


            1) I think men should give themselves permission to embrace what might be called the feminine archetype. I hesitate to speak generally about “masculine” and “feminine,” but I think men should give themselves permission to feel their feelings, to be vulnerable, to support and to allow themselves to be supported — actions that I think are safely associated with a feminine archetype. Many men, I suspect, are not going to figure out how to give themselves this permission naturally; they need to be led. I participate in a men’s group that does this sort of thing. At it’s best, it’s pretty incredible work.

            2) It seems to me that many women — perhaps most women — are attracted to men who are assertive in acceptable ways. What’s acceptable varies from person to person.

            3) When men intrude on women in one way or another — are overly smarmy, or manipulative, or outright sexually aggressive — I would suspect that sometimes it’s the result of a patriarchal sense of entitlement so overgrown that it destroys their capacity for empathy altogether. This seems like what mostly happened in Stubenville.

            But in many cases, I would suspect the misbehavior could be better explained as the result of a painful separation from the feminine.

            I sense a misogynistic vein in pop culture, and it often feels like a wound to me. It seems to me some men — particularly young men — suffer a separation from the archetypal feminine — from the nurturing, support, feminine acceptance and receptivity that might be said to characterize the archetypal feminine. I think that some aggression ultimately results from their inability to connect with this feminine in a healthy way.

            4) I don’t think we live in a time and place when love and understanding are just oozing out of people everywhere you look. This, I believe, affects everybody.

            5) Also, we are saturated with media that consists of fictions of all forms, and our expectations of ourselves and others are almost inevitably shaped by the fictional achievements of people that appear before us on screens. This makes it harder for us to be present to and accepting of ourselves, I believe, and it makes it harder for us to be present to and accepting of others.

            I’ve heard it ventured, for example, that romantic comedies have done for women’s expectations of romance what pornography has done for men’s expectations of sex. I think the comparison is worth some consideration.

I think we should be careful not to expect that our mate — male or female — be as attractive, or dynamic — or anything — as a fictional character. But we do do this. In my view, we’d be better off to delight in one another as we are, and to delight just in the process of being involved with a real human being, flaws and all.

            6) I think for man or woman, no amount of “cilantro” is palliative until one has had the actual experience of attracting someone to whom one is attracted.

            7) Nice men often have grown up watching girls they love fall for jerks. This can be powerful conditioning.

            8) I think it often happens that men, separated from a sense of the feminine themselves, feeling a call to be assertive, wounded by rejection, beset by all sorts of media-fueled expectations, just get CONFUSED. They are trying to feel connection, love, worthiness, fulfillment, but they’re mixed up and lost about how to get it.

            9) There are women out there who feel bent out of shape about masculinity, as a result of bad experiences they have had with men. I can understand why. I think, though, that we all might do well to realize that there are some pretty insensitive stereotypical females out there, too.

            I don’t think the tension between male and female is primarily a tension between male and female; I think it’s primarily between those seeking the healthy and those seeking the unhealthy, the sincere and the avaricious, the sensitive and the insensitive. This conflict has not expressed itself symmetrically in the world of men and the world of women, but it seems to me that that’s the issue. A man being insensitive can hurt someone, and a woman being insensitive can hurt someone, too.

            10) Maybe we’re all putting a little too much emphasis on sex.

            11) Somewhere in here, a one might infer from the original post, it might be useful if more men said, visibly, “I feel…” and “I want to be…”

            And when they start doing this — furtively, I suspect, the way anyone does when they are doing something new — I hope that people around them will listen with a deep respect.

            12) Generally, I can find places where I feel listened to with a deep respect. And: I want to be attractive. I want to be understood. I want to feel that I satisfy a partner emotionally; I want to feel that I satisfy a partner sexually — I want to feel turned on by a partner, and I want to turn a partner on. I want to be accepted. I want to be supported. I want to be committed and to feel that someone is committed to me.

            I feel desire. I want to understand, accept, and express that desire in healthy ways. I want that desire to be understood and accepted.

            I feel vulnerable. I want that vulnerability to be understood and accepted.

            Maybe more like $.03 here, Iben. Maybe more like a nickel. 🙂

            • @Matt,

              Terrific Matt!!

              Everything just seem so upside down today. Maybe it is this strong influence of narcissism? Could be the breakdown of the nuclear family? I think you learn about the masculine and feminine as a kid growing up in a family. I learned how to respect and appreciate women while growing up in a family with male and female siblings.

              I really don’t know the answer.

              But you did a great job!!

              Kudos.

            • However you count it, Matt, this comment is money!

            • FlyingKal says:

              Thank you for a great job putting that into writing, Matt!

  127. Hi Jules
    I can not find you.

    You asked my opinion about this.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/emma-johnson/ingle-moms-and-other-stro_b_3117711.html

    It has 100% on Reddit. What does that mean?

    What is an alpha male?
    Here is one definition:

    “in social animals, the alpha is the individual in the community with the highest rank”.

    I have never met a real alpha male. Online I see many men call themselves alpha male.

    This article only made me smile,I like Italians.
    But I can not see how Lou is alpha male,and dominating? How is he dominating? And how is alpha?

    When a woman says she like aggression in bed it is probably something different than you think.

    What is your question Jules?
    I do not see Lou as a thug,a bastard or a sociopath.

    • @Iben…

      hello!

      I am here. An Alpha male is a sexually dominate man. As opposed to a beta male. Also, he can be high status and domineering…..

      In the HP piece Lou is, per the author, an Alpha male. He is dominating her sexually in bed.

      The point is just how few requirements she placed on Lou for sex. She met the guy online and then……

      Yet, this is in clear contradiction to what the author of this (GMP) article would have men believe.

    • @Iben……

      My question was just how do you balance this behavior with what Alyssa says women are looking for?

      Here is an except from the article,

      “I was referencing my weekend date — a guy I met on OKCupid named Lou who I have pretty much nothing in common with but proved to be the perfect Saturday night activity. For the past few months I’ve been in a dateless funk, fueled by disappointment that a love interest didn’t pan out and a long, gray, life-filled winter. Despite being anything but what I am looking for in the long-term, this Sicilian-born, Harley-riding electrical engineer from Queens charmed me with a witty profile, flirty and articulate messages and pics that suggested — quite accurately, I found — a darling smile and a 6’3″ body built like a brick shit house.”

      See, she only wanted Lou for sex. He was among that 15%-20% of men want STRICTLY for sex. She even stated she had nothing in common with him.

      Personally, I cannot mentally understand how she could do it. But, clearly this is contrary to what Alyssa is telling men to do. And it simply proves my point: watch what women do not what they say. Not all women of course, but too many.

  128. Hi Tim and Sarah
    I hope you gets some comments on Tim’s hypotheses here

    ✺Tim says:
    June 14, 2013 at 2:53 am
    Sarah

    Have you noticed that men who have slept with, say, 50 women are much less bothered about a woman’s sexual past, when settling down?

    It is the chicken and egg parable.

    You say women find fewer men sexually attractive because they get slut-shamed and have to be picky. I say women get slut-shamed because slut-shaming developed in response to an inherent difference in sexuality b/w men and women. It developed in order to ensure a monogamous society which would allow every man to have a woman.

    There is no basis of slut-shaming other than male sexual jealousy and insecurity. Its not because men think a woman with 50 partners has lost her value, is damaged goods, is worth less as a human being, has become ‘morally corrupted’ etc. Ofcourse religions and social values have simply given a cover to male insecurities so we can all pretend its an issue of morality. Religions were made by men to protect male interests.

    I have absolutely no disrespect for a woman who has slept with 100 men. But I would never want to get serious with one because (1) I’ve only had 2 partners in life and would like someone with a similar history and (2) I cannot measure up to her past. I am truthful enough to acknowledge that its just about me…not her. Do you think this is still slut-shaming?

    Other men are not so truthful and instead of acknowledging their own insecurity would rather scorn promiscuous women.
    .
    Slut-shaming is a direct result of male sexual jealousy. But why are men more sexually jealous than women? Consider this: People are more jealous and protective about something when its rare and difficult to obtain; when its wanted by many but can’t be had easily.
    Can we say this holds true for female sexuality? If female sexuality was in abundance and available to men in a relatively egalitarian way, why would men be jealous? Why would there be a rationale for jealousy? Why would our early male ancestors stifle a sexual utopia that they were perhaps enjoying by restricting female sexuality? Men love sex don’t they? Perhaps because there was no sexual utopia for men. Perhaps because unrestricted female sexuality had a tendency to exclude most men.

    My belief is that what we observe in the sexual realm of life, won’t be blamed on the double standard for long. They will have to come up with other explanations soon.✺

    And Tim,may I ask how you know how man with lots of sex partners have no problems settling down with women that also had many?

    One of my friends was one of these men. He married a international sex symbol.
    When the marriage broke down I asked him:” did she kick you out of the bed.?”
    And he answered :” no. I kicked her out. I was too jealous of her past”.

    • Iben..

      Hi!

      “And Tim,may I ask how you know how man with lots of sex partners have no problems settling down with women that also had many?”

      Maybe he did not know? Perhaps he too has had many and does not care?

    • Iben,
      Whether Tim can back it up or not, I think it’s likely to be true. If there’s not a study on it there should be. You know how girls get told by their mothers that boys won’t like them if they’re smart – and it’s wrong of course; Dumb boys won’t like you if you’re smart – that’d be the truth! People tend to prefer people of similar intellect, but if one has to be smarter than the other, generally the trend is the man would prefer it to be himself – unless he’s very secure (so I’m exempting myself here. I lived for ten years with a woman who was smarter than me, marginally, but it only started to make me feel inadequate in the last year of our relationship when I’d been told at work that I’d never be management material – which means no pay rise ever effectively; it was only when I was feeling like a failure in a broader context that I failed to spar with her when she made a joke at my expense, in that playful way couples do, but started to accept it like a beaten dog. It was only when I was in depression for other reasons that it started to hurt – and I’m not dumb at all; I’m in the upper quartile; but when you feel like a failure every insult, however far from the truth, still catches you and fills you with doubts). So I’m thinking to a certain extent, certainly if the man is young and he thinks he’s comparing like with like (which he isn’t of course for reasons we’ve already stated) being with a girl who’s had significantly more partners than him will make him feel inadequate. But, as with intellect, I don’t think anyone wants to a massive disparity in any direction – The sociopathic narcisstic “friend” with 150 ex partners I talked about; his girlfriend was appalled by his white lie of “50”; fifty seems like a lot to her when she most likely hadn’t broken double figures. And in his case she’s quite right to be appalled by it – it accurately (well not accurately! Because it’s only a third of the actual figure!) represents that he is a shallow human being, and anyone with a small number of mostly romantic sexual encounters in their history faced with a partner who has numerous purely recreational sexual encounters is naturally going to ask “okay, if all those others meant nothing to you; how do I know I mean something to you?”

      So actually; how should we feel about “slut-shaming”? Dolphins do it. They’re a polyamorous bunch dolphins – not monogamous at all; they do forge long term partnerships and attachments mind; however if an individual dolphin is moving through sex partners too fast for comfort the school will ostracise him or her; just socially exclude them. I’m not saying dolphins do it, it must be fine; they’re not the perfect little angels we’re led to believe – they have their vices as well as their virtues – they’re almost as ethically complex as we are. But maybe if slut-shaming was extended to the males as well – maybe if it became accepted to turn around to guys who boast a high number of woman; “okay name them and say what made each one special to you”; or even “so why can’t you keep hold of your girlfriends?” In fact the more putdowns we can work out for men who have large numbers of sexual partners the more we can change the social attitude that they are winners worthy of respect.

      • @joseph…

        Great post!

      • Hi Joseph

        ✺You write:” But maybe if slut-shaming was extended to the males as well – maybe if it became accepted to turn around to guys who boast a high number of woman; “okay name them and say what made each one special to you”; or even “so why can’t you keep hold of your girlfriends?” In fact the more putdowns we can work out for men who have large numbers of sexual partners the more we can change the social attitude that they are winners worthy of respect.”✺

        My answer is yes and no,yes and no.

        I agree with you that we all should speak up when somebody BRAG about their sexual conquest and “their number”.

        But I do not agree that we should slut sham men or women for their ” number”. Nor for their sexuality.

        Their sexual values,attitudes and behavior towards others however should always be challenged. Some exploit others,and damage them for life with their sexuality.

        The reasons why some have no sex partner in a lifetime,some have 4-7( a median ?) and some have a lots of are many and varied.

        Any individual have his or her unique story. Who are we to judge?

        For some promiscuity is symptoms of deeper long lasting emotional distress,like when you suffer from certain personalty disorder,for example borderline,or sex addiction( if that is a diagnoses). A symptom of an inability to take care of them selves….and more. Many are survivers of childhood sexual abuse.

        The dolphins may spot unhealthy sexual behavior,as a symptom of individuals ” messed up” just like we do. Or maybe even sosiopatic / antisocial dolphins? Who knows.

        • Iben….

          “Any individual have his or her unique story..”

          Yes, but maybe the problem is not a lot of men have a story, at all. That is what the high incel statistic is telling us.

          I will always believe a person has a right to ask about “the number.” The other always has the right to say “No…”, “Go jump off a bridge.”…just refuse. Then we will know the truth of the matter.

          • Jules

            Yes,if you want to start a relationship you have the right to ask about anything.
            But where I live,we don’t. At least I have never asked any,and nobody has asked me .

            Our future Qeen probably has a higher number than her husband the crown price . Sex,drugs and rock &roll…..

      • Joseph

        Did you see the movie;” Sex,lies and videotape”?

      • Joseph
        This thread is closing up now.
        But read this article about research on porn in today’s The Guardian.

        Maybe everybody that uses porn is “sluts” male or female?

        Good summer.
        http://www.guardian.co.uk/culture/2013/jun/16/internet-violent-porn-crime-studies

  129. Hi Jules

    The number of wife’s reduced to 17?
    You made me laugh.
    But you are right. We should know more than our Bible. The old and the New Testament.

    I have persons of the Jewish faith in my family and still I know nothing. Just like I know little about Islam even though my city has large groups of Muslims.

    I wonder if men’s preference for chaste women is genetic. And as you often comment many women don’t mind at all if some men have far to many sex partners and live like male whores.

    It is strange. Is it a cultural thing? Is is chasing men as status symbols?

    Or have we as a society lost values about the purity and beauty of love and sexuality?
    The mystic is gone,romance is on its way out, the mind blowing love experience where you feel one with God is replaced with demands for anal.

    And old vanilla girl is pessimistic about the future.

    • @Iben…

      “You made me laugh.”

      Great! It is always healthy to laugh.

      “I wonder if men’s preference for chaste women is genetic. And as you often comment many women don’t mind at all if some men have far to many sex partners and live like male whores.”

      Iben, Tim has some great comments on this above. He was very open and honest. What he wrote also contains much truth.

      But here is a question that continues to dog me: Why has the history of man been one of suppressing female sexuality? Is it because men throughout history have seen unbridled female sexuality and found it terrifying!? Just what is the motive for this? Maybe you have the answer(s)?

      As I study history and in particular Judaism and Christian histories, I often ask myself: just why on earth would a woman want to be a concubine. Why would a woman want to be a one of King Solomon’s hundreds of wives? Or his hundreds of concubines? Or part of a harem? Is this why men has sought to bottle up female sexuality? I really don’t know the answers Iben.

      “And old vanilla girl is pessimistic about the future.” Funny. Now I laugh about being you being vanilla.I am vanilla too Iben. I love and appreciate the simplicity and beauty that life offers. Here in America, everything is rush rush rush. Few take the time to enjoy life. I grew up in Georgia, a Deep South state. Life was rural and simple. Yet, it had this beautiful essence. Waking up to the sweet smell of honeysuckle. Going home to visit and taking my wife for a walk in the woods with pine trees, seeing rabbits and others animals. Enjoying a kiss in the woods….It seems all lost today in America.

      Things have a tendency of swinging back and forth in life. While I like vanilla, I can also go for vanilla, I am willing to try French Vanilla:)-

      Maybe people will wake up in America and see that this is really not the way to live. I hope so.

      Cheers!

  130. Jules

    Here is Cameron’s article about commercial
    Sexual exploitation of boy.
    There are more boys selling sex than girls.
    As far as know the same is in Sweden,and not all costumers are men.

    http://goodmenproject.com/good-feed-blog/social-justice-and-boys-too-the-commercial-sexual-exploitation-of-boys-in-the-us/

    • @Iben..

      Hello!

      Yes, I did read the piece you referenced. But, the overwhelming proportion of boys is to serve the needs of gay men and pedophiles.

  131. Bay Area guy
    You write:

    “✺The reason why slut shaming exists, and why studs are respected while sluts ridiculed is because men actually have to put in work to become studs. They have to develop confidence, dress better, deal with rejection after rejection, and overall cultivate better qualities. For women to be sluts, they simply have to be there (as Jim Jefferies once put it) and have a pulse. ” ✺

    You hypotheses is vulgar and simplistic. And lacking in knowledge about the phenomena.

    Please read Julia Stonehouse here on GMP
    http://goodmenproject.com/families/is-this-the-end-of-the-patriarchy/
    She has a good theory and she well qualified to explain about this.
    She will not agree with your hypotheses !
    Read her and especially her brilliant comments in the debate !
    Recommended

    • @Iben…

      Thanks for the piece by Julia Stonehouse. Interesting to say the least. But, I think she glossed over too much. I certainly do not agree with most of what she states.

      I really do not believe patriarchy is the root of the problem. Nor is Christianity. What I found most lacking is her failure to even mention Judaism. After all, Christianity is deeply rooted in Judaism. Why you might ask is Judaism relevant?

      Do you know a woman had the right to a divorce under Judaism thousands of years ago? Do you know that under Judaism, women were treated a near legal equals to men? It was Judaism that abolished the practice of it Kings (Solomon, David) having hundreds of wives AND concubines. Monogamy has it roots in Judaism, not Christianity.

      While I am a Protestant, I really think more Christians need to study Judaism. Even when the number of wives was reduced to 17, they had to be all treated equally and with respect.

  132. Ginkgo

    Author: Ginkgo
    Comment:
    ✺”This father talks about his sons and seems to be pround of theirs inability to love,their inability to form romantic relationships, and fully supports their degrading attitudes towards women in general.”

    Iben, deciding not to run around drooling after girls =/= inability to love, =/= degrading attitudes towards woemn, etc.✺

    Ginkgo please read all the posting I was commenting on. And let me assure you that I do not think it is degrading to women that men do not run around drooling….

    But if you read all the posting of this father as a whole you see a man that is not happy with women’s company,he is not happy in bed with women sexually ,and he is glad his young sons see girls as “something that want to hang around their neck.” Nor does he have any interesting conversations with women.

    I think it is great that boys stay away from girls when that is how they see them.

  133. Ginkgo
    I can not find your comment so I write here.
    I am not quelified to say anything about American women. I am not one of them. And I have only lived in America for a year.

    But so many men here on this website tells us that a huge percentage of men in America never get a girlfriend. And I wonder why?
    What is going on if a society has 30-40% percent of men living as incels?
    I do not know if that percentage is correct,it it seems to me that many men feel rejected by absolutely all women.
    Do you know why?

    I do not know why. But it is weird….l

    • @Iben…

      I think the percentage of men living as incels is anywhere between 20%-30%.

      Why? I really think it is due to the fact that American women find so few men attractive.

      Why is this the case? I have no idea. Even surveys from major online dating sites confirm what I am saying. The surveys show women find about 70%-80% of men as unattractive.

      Just to offer a contrast. I know and am around many Hispanic Americans. The women no where nearly as picky and…..about men.

      Women on GMP often ask why are there not male prostitutes for women. Well, it is due to the fact that women can access sex much much easier than men. This is what drives this mentality of many women in their ability to have sex with a man but would NEVER date him or even be seen in public with him in some cases. So, there is always the man whore many women can turn. Why would they need a male prostitute? Clearly they do not.

  134. The best way to fix this IMO is for society to allow women to be the aggressors. Once women are allowed/encouraged to take the same risks as men, then men won’t feel the pressure. This would IMO result in both a reduction is sexual assault/rape culture AND women not seeing men as predators.

  135. Who are you kidding? We live in a patriarchal misogynistic society where everything is sexualized and marginalized. Men became urban legend and males cannot stop complaining how they are not unequal enough. Relationships became an unwinnable game, like chasing a carrot on a stick.. Males want everything on their terms without reciprocation or any responsibility, unless you find a way to manipulate them into appreciating what you do for them. Sex is a great cardio-vascular, but not worth the candles with exposure to all the risks involved. If you want someone who loves you for who you are regardless of what you are wearing, your “sexual worth,” or your status, get a dog! Male is the last thing that woman needs.

  136. Amen and thank you/
    As a man and a person/
    Please comunicate

  137. Here’s another thought that occured to me:

    I’m not sure what is meant by “let us in don’t lure us in”, and perhaps that could be explained in a more explicit less soundbitey way. But I suspect it’s about being open about our emotions. The fact is whilst I can admit to being “sensitive” in the way that I can admit I cried at Wreck-It-Ralph say 🙂 (which honestly I did! I have kids that I take out every other weekend so I see all the kids films, and it’s often where I get a lot of my emotional release) but if one’s emotions include feeling ugly or undesirable, feeling a sense of failure, having doubts – I’m aware that these are qualities that women will always find unattractive. Men never find vulnerability or self-doubt unattractive in a woman, we always feel protective towards a woman who is feeling vulnerable; we are happy to elevate the self-esteem of a woman who is feeling bad about herself – there is not a contradiction between sympathy and sexual attraction for us. But for women, there can be men you feel sympathy for, and men you find attractive, but they’re almost never the same man – so we do have to keep those negative emotions underwraps until we’re utterly sure a friendship is never going to evolve into anything more – and that is why we have to keep emotionally closed and not be totally honest about ourselves.

    Do other men here feel this double-bind, and do the women here recognise it as truthful? And since a man’s low-self esteem can come from long-term unintentional celibacy, and since it is a viscious circle, is this really something we men have to do something about, or is it somewhere where perhaps women’s perceptions of the reality of what it is to be a man need to change?

    • Hi Joseph
      Good question you ask here.

    • Alyssa Royse says:

      I can only speak for me, not “all women.” We are far from a monolithic bunch. I do find it attractive when men are able to articulate their fears and insecurities. I find it wildly attractive, actually. That is one of the things that I always looked for in a partner. However, it’s not just acknowledging them, but being able to go on with life and have a good attitude despite them. When I meet a man – or woman – who is able to admit that they fear failure or injury or loss, and is still able to go forward in pursuing their goals, without holding anyone else responsible, I tend to go all in. I would describe my husband that way. All of my friends. I am trying to foster that in my daughters.

      There is nothing weak in that, in fact, I find it a hallmark of strength and stability.

      Further, if I’m going to have a serious relationship with someone, I NEED to know that they can do that, because we will go through a lot in life, and I need to know they can talk to me honestly about what they’re thinking and feeling so that I don’t get surprised later about some simmering resentment….

      It’s hard. Especially with the myths of masculinity that we’ve been fed – all this White Knight Prince Charming Superhero nonsense about men always being strong and fixing everything. Men are human. A man in touch with his own humanity has always had a better chance of touching my heart, and my girlie bits. 😉

      And no, it’s not easy. We have to undo a lot of cultural programming in both men and women.

      • “I tend to go all in.”

        All In: The Education of General David Petraeus

        Funny how Paula Broadwell came up with this title for her book.

    • FlyingKal says:

      Joseph,
      Thanks for asking the question.
      I think that people in general are better at rationalizing their choices to themselves, than they are at living up to their own standards. 🙂
      I.e. we keep telling ourselves that we are attracted to people with positive attributes, when in reality we interpret or ascribe positive attributes to the people we are attracted to…

  138. Hi Jules
    This is a comment to your writing:

    “Who give them the right to use women bodies to get rid of their itching?”
    Women do the same Iben. In fact, I would argue they are far more guilty of such than men.”

    I think is wrong to exploit another’s person sexually,economically,emotionally or otherwise. It does not matter if it is a man or a woman.
    But I did not know that so many men suffer under sexual exploitation from women.
    Please point me to articles on GMP that writes about this problem. I remember the story of Bobby Brown.

    If only 15-20% of American men get sex, then it must be these men that get exploited sexually by lots and lots of women? Or is it 15-20% that get causal sex and get exploited? I am confused now.

    They must be very busy,and somebody must help them.

    In my social circles women do not exploit men Jules. I don’t respect persons like that and do not spend time with them. I like and love persons with integrity. I stay away from those who exploit others.(Just like I stay away from persons that are cruel to animals. )

    • @Iben…

      Neither the man nor the woman view this as exploitation. I do. That is why I indicated in an earlier post that if I feel a white woman wants me just to “try out”, then I am turned off regardless.

      You know sexuality is all screwed up here in America. You have both men and women who feel it is perfectly acceptable to get their itch scratched. You have the booty calls, hook ups, …..But neither side see this as exploitation.

      Women view this new sexuality as “Empowering.” While men think it is just fantastic.

      I am a social conservative and never believed in “casual” sex. I have to know and respect the woman before I have sex with her. If I do not respect her then why on earth would I want to have sex with her? To me that is just crazy.

      Yet, some women have these thug guys who know how to give them great sex but they (the women) think very little of them as human beings. They are just sex machines. I am sure there are men who do the same. It is just twisted in my mind.

      • Nothing you wrote about implies sexuality being screwed up. You just wrote about how your own personal preferences should be those of other people – which is just twisted in my mind.

        • @Asura….

          I did say MY mind. Not once did I say or suggest that other people adopt MY view of the issue.

          I am merely challenging the humanity of the practice. I is akin to the slave master who would rape or through consent (she thought she would become a free person) have sex with the African slave woman, but see her as less than himself. Just where is the dignity in that?

          To ME, it is the same thing as saying a person is good enough for sex, but not good enough as a human being to date.

  139. Thank you, thank you for this article. Truly.

    That said, I would have loved to see more balanced recommendations for action – that is, you state a few times that we can work together to move forward, but give recommendations solely geared towards men. The reason this article was so powerful for me was recognizing the effect this has had in my own defaults and behaviors – but I was disappointed to then feel powerless, as a straight woman, based on the recommendations you explored.

    I’d love to see someone take a shot at diving into how we can truly work together to move from here.

    • Alyssa Royse says:

      Thanks Anna. This article was written for men, so I didn’t think to include tips for women. CLEARLY, given the response, an oversight on my part. Despite the name of the site, The Good Men Project, I will remember, going forward, that a lot of women read this site. And there were many men who were also angry that I didn’t include tips for women. It was my oversight, I wasn’t speaking to women. Though I am hugely gratified that so many women have responded, and from here on out, I’m writing for both, even if there is a slight emphasis on a male audience.

      I will probably write a continuation of this article on NotSoSecret.com, which is a site aimed at women’s sexuality.

      • Bay Area Guy says:

        @ Alyssa

        I don’t think male commenters on this site mind the omission of women in these articles per se. What they don’t like is what they perceive to be women constantly getting a free pass.

        It’s why they always react with such hostility towards NL’s articles.

  140. Anthony says:

    I don’t think I had much guidance when I was young (I’m now 60+) but always had a vaguely guilty feeling that I was in some way an oppressor of women, and because of that tried to be as nice as possible, which does not work., one reason being that it is not really authentic. Somehow I got the idea in my head from an early age that women did not like sex (from my Mother) and that sex is wrong or embarrassing (from my Father). In life I found that neither of these things were true but it was very hard to get that first idea out of my head. It is still there to a lessor degree. Very nice to hear a woman’s perspective on the subject and one that validates men instead of attacking them.

  141. I’ve kind of been waiting around for this article. Every time I see or hear the statement that “men and boys need to be taught not to rape/rape is bad” it insults and infuriates me and I just have to disengage from the conversation before I stick my foot in it and end up blindly labelled as yet another predator with anger issues. Not saying it’s perfect but reading this article was like seeing a little bit of light at the end of the tunnel. Evolution moves slowly but this gave me a bit more hope that it’s going in the right direction, for all of us. So yeah, thanks Alyssa.

  142. Steve Steveson says:

    You talk about not deamonizing men as predators yet use the phrase “rape culture” again and again with its connotations that rape is something ingrained in to all men by society rather than something that is a violent and criminal act by both men and women. Then saying men can help fix this by helping stop violence against women as if all men are at fault for the actions of a small minority.

    No, what needs to be done is to change society as a whole from Sex=Bad to Sex=Good and give everyone the tools to say what they want and to say Yes and No.

    • @Steve,

      I agree with you.

      Your suggestions are quite reasonable and common sense. We seem to have gotten away from common sense, simplicity, and honest dialogue.

      I really detest this “rape culture” thingy. Yes, there is rape in America. However, there is no culture of rape.

    • Rape culture exists whether you want to admit it or not. News reporters were discussing how tragic the situation was for the rapists in the Steubenville case for crying out loud; I don’t know how rape culture could possibly be more evident than when we mourn the goddamn rapists and not the victim.

  143. Michael says:

    As a parent of two boys I got to watch them go through high school. They were both athletes, good looking, smart, funny,and had a lot of girls around. To my surprise, they weren’t that interested in sex. Since their teammates (wrestling and soccer) often hung out at my home, I soon realized that their attitude was anything but unique. Now when i was growing up sex was an obsession not just for me, but for all my friends. The discussion here reminds me of those days–except, of course, women’s part in it. In any case, i took a long look at this new attitude of my children. What I discovered was that these boys thought of girls as a pain in the neck– always complaining about something, always insisting that men be this way and that. The connection between sex and having children was non existent. Sex was supposed to be fun, but it wasn’t that much fun because once you had it you had this girl hanging around and she was just a pain in the ass. They had been taught or simply absorbed in the surrounding culture, that girls and boys were pretty much the same except for the plumbing. You rub the parts together and it feels good. But apparently it didn’t feel that good to them that they were willing to have girls hanging around. After all if they were supposed to be the same as boys they weren’t as good at sports and you couldn’t fool around with them without their getting their knickers in a twist at unpredictable times. Perhaps you think they were gay? One of them wondered about it but admitted that he was not attracted to men either.

    Now other boys in this school were having sex like gangbusters– with all the sturm and drang that adolescent sex produces. It was the total obsession of their lives. But they were almost all losers. Sex had become something that you do when you have nothing better to do. Those whose lives were filled with school and sports and other activities that really occupied them found sex to be a waste of time. “Scratching an itch.” It’s not that the good students and good athletes were having no sex, but it was a minor part of their lives, often engaged in in an experimental way and abandoned when discussion with their friends confirmed that it was no big deal. They had more important things to do– go to practice and get good grades.

    Women often complain that there are no real men around any more. They are there. But they are not interested in you.

    • Hello Michael

      The thing to note here is that not all good looking athletic guys are promiscuous. But almost all promiscuous men are good looking and well built (barring rich/famous men) There is a very strong correlation between male promiscuity and physical attractiveness (in that order..not reverse). Even sociologists admit that.
      Not so much for women.

      • Michael says:

        I think sex is a whole lot less important than it used to be. At least in liberal circles. Gay, straight, who cares. For people who are really trying to do something special it’s a waste of time. It’s like eating too much candy except that you’ve got a girl hanging around. I think the modern feminist middle class woman has nothing really that men should want. Most men don’t really like hanging out with women. They used to be mysterious and alluring. Now we are told from the beginning that we are all really the same.

        • Hi Michael

          Are sex and women so boring for the young men today that they not even watch and use porn everyday?
          Great!

          (No girls hanging around your neck when you use porn is there?)

          • Dunno about him but I love hanging around women whom I enjoy the company of. I also very much love hanging around women I have a crush on or have a relationship with. I very very much love sex with women. Maybe I am rare:P But I very much have a high sex drive.

            I think he might mean they are too busy focused on a career to care about chasing partners?

            • Michael says:

              I don’t know if the word “career” is fair. One wanted to be the best wrestler he could be. He did get very good even though he started late, and he won a couple of big tournaments. He also knew he wanted to get into a really good school. Practice and study takes up a lot of time, but the word “career” makes it sound like there was no real passion in these choices. Sex, when it is not about children is about what? From what I hear it is mostly fun. But people who have something they really want to do are not that interested in fun.

          • Michael says:

            I’m sure you are right. But it is all just fun. All of us have to decide whether life is just about trying to enjoy yourself or whether there is some big thing you want to accomplish. Most choose fun, as you say. Women take time and money. You have to be different when you are around them. They separate you from your friends. Or haven’t you found that to be so?

        • Michael

          I’m going to pull a statistic out of my ass and claim that for every guy who can get laid a lot, but chooses not to do so, there are atleast 5 to 10 who want to get laid a lot but cant.

          But I understand that their existence is less relevant.

          • @Tim….

            I strongly concur.

            Again, it goes to the ultra selectivity of women in partners in America. Fifty percent (50%) of us are automatically deemed unattractive by most women.

            If you have $$$$$, it is the great equalizer. If you do not then it comes down to either physical/sexual attractiveness (regardless of whether a she wants to date the guy) or looks.

            Lastly, a big factor is going to be where a woman is in her life stage. If she wants to get married or be in LTR, then sex is less of an issue. But, for the guy who is or has been “undersexed” most of his life, it is a HUGE expectation. Herein lies the problem.

        • John Anderson says:

          @ Michael

          “I think sex is a whole lot less important than it used to be.”

          I know it is to me and not because I’m middle aged. I first realized it in my early 20s. I knew this woman who was utterly gorgeous and a freak in bed. I still have part of her slip as a memento. She didn’t have a thought in her head. One time she caught me off guard when I was thinking of something else and asked me on a date. I hadn’t seen her in awhile since she was going to school in a different town and instinctively said yes. About a minute later, I was like what was I thinking. The sex wasn’t worth the several hours of idiotic conversation.

          On the other hand, I have several female friends I don’t want to sleep with who’s company I thoroughly enjoy. One of them has a crush on me and yes, she’s in the friend zone, but we were friends before she developed the crush. I think it’s the emotional connection she got attracted to. Sex is great, but you can’t base a relationship on that alone.

          • And what is a relationship, anyway? Now a marriage is something, especially when you want to have children together. Now that is important, and big, but I do feel it happenswhen a man embraces the extremely pleasurable woman’s world, the world of day to day happenings. But casual sex, well it might feel good or it might not. For a man in the modern world there is always the “can I get it up” anxiety. Even if you never once couldn’t, it’s there. And I would bet there are very few men who didn’t “fail” like this more than once. But what does it prove other than that you didn’t really desire the girl? But of course even after the “can I get it up” anxiety is allayed by getting hard, there’s the “can I last long enough” anxiety. To make yourself last longer many men try to think unsexy thoughts so as not to get so excited. In other words they try to make sex less pleasurable to themselves so as to make it last longer. When they succeed they have long lasting unpleasureable sex. Then when it is done they feel obligated to tell the girl how wonderful it was. Because even after all that exertion if you roll over into that wonderful languid state after orgasm the girl will complain you are neglecting her and only want one thing.

      • I tend to disagree with the point that all promiscuous men are good looking. I feel that the ‘gene’, or thought process is inherent in many men. A man that is average looking, or lower, by media standard’s, can be just as hurtful as the ‘hunk’…so if people are going to get hurt, which of the lesser evil’s are picked..? I think probably the one that is easier on the eye’s…just a thought.

      • Tim

        Then how do you define promiscuity ?
        Take a trip to any country that has a lot of sex tourism ,for example Thailand.
        Then tell us if all the men you see there with a new girl every night there are georgous ,good looking men men?
        What they are doing is also promiscuous behavior.

        • Michael D says:

          Promiscuity is always defined as “anyone who is having more sex than I am.” Just this focus on the term diminishes this great article.

        • I thought it was understood I wasn’t referring to men who have sex with hookers.

          • Tim
            Not all Thai are prostitutes.
            It is seems to be a more sex friendly culture. Men have told me of their vacations to Thailand and how easy it was to get in contact with women without any money changing hands.

            I have asked myself if these women hope to find a husband in a wealthy country in the west,and feel they have to act fast. It is impossible for me to say,but not all Thai are prostitutes.

            • “Thailand has a sex-friendly culture”

              It is not more sex-friendly than Scandinavia. But Stockholm isn’t on the radar of horny young men around the world looking to get laid. Bangkok is. What does it mean?

              • Tim
                I have never been to Thiland but it seems that nearly everybody else have. It is a destination for family vacations.
                Why do people travel there instead of to Sweden?Maybe because the climate is so much better,people there are polite,friendly and hospitable while Scandinavians are more closed up. It takes more time to make friends with Scandinavians. Scandinavia is also expensive while Thailand is not. You can rent a good quelty apartment there for $160-320 / month. I guess it will cost at lest ten times as much to rent an appartmemt in Stocholm.The nature is great,food is good. Maybe the hotels are good?

                If the Thai culture is sex friendly for both men and women I don’t know.
                I follow daily the best debate site in my country. A teacher writes there every day and since he is happily married to a woman from Thailand he tells us that he is glad his wife came from thar culture. And his opinion is that this culture is sex positive.
                I am not qualified to say anything about Thai culture other than I see many from Thailand marry Scandinavians.
                On my friends father (70) is married to a woman from Thailand(55). They are deeply in love. My friends thinks the Buddhist mindset is one of the reasons why that marriage is successful.

                • I suspect many of the women are sex friendly with westerners because they are looking for a wealthy man to support not just them, but their extended family. I once read an article (don’t have a link now, unfortunately) about villages in Thailand where practically the whole village is surviving on money from American husbands. Some of the men even settle in Thailand rather than takng their wife back to the states. Often they are retired American men whose pensions go a long way in Thailand. However, a couple men were quoted about the economic pressure they were under to support their wives’ families.

                  I’d be curious to find out if young Thai women are equally sex friendly with the Thai boys down the road. I expect not. My impression is that young women’s sexuality is viewed as a commodity. Which is quite different from being sex positive.

                  • Hi Sarah
                    If and when sex is seen as an commodity this is not sex friendly. I totally agree with you.

                    Still I would rather see my brother married to a woman from abroad than live unhappy as an incel all his life.

                    Where he should travel out of America to find love I do not know,but I think it is better to look abroad than to be unhappy all your life and miss a family if that is what he dreams of. Most of a want a family and someone to share our life with.
                    Whether you marry someone from Thailand,Russia, Ukraine, or somewhere else does not matter as long as both are sincere persons.
                    The fact that you are born in a country with lover living standards than us does not mean you are a bad person,or a good digger. But I see your point Sarah.

                    Tell me Sarah where on earth are the countries that are more relaxed about sexuality than the US.? Do you have any idea?

                    I am not qualified to say anything about Thailand and if women there are friendly to Thai men. This is a subject I know nothing about,
                    But not all women innThailand is poor. The woman that married my friends father(70 years old) owns her own restaurant. She is a business women and does not need his money. She probably will end up nursing him!

                    I think we do injustice to all persons living in countries in Africa and Asia if we only see them as poor. Some are poor,others are not,

                    If a man goes looking for a bride aboard he can find women with long university educations for example from Russia.

                    • @Iben, I don’t know of any countries that are truly sex positive. Maybe there are some isolated tribes somewhere. I think the truth is that wherever there is a high value on women’s sexuality sexuality and fertility, which is pretty much everywhere, and men are willing to pay for it, women (or their families) have an incentive to get as much as they can for it. I completely understand why women from Thailand, the Ukraine or other developing countries would use their most valuable asset — their youth and attractiveness — to better themselves and their situation in life.

                      In the United States, which is a capitalistic dog-eat-dog society, it’s not surprising that we’ve developed a mercenary attitude toward sex. So now you have pickup artists who see the pursuit of relationships with women as a brutal game where you are either a winner or a loser. If she’s attractive and you have sex with her and you don’t have to call her again and you can brag about your techniques on an online forum, you are a winner. If you actually liked her and hope you see her again, and think she’s a nice person, you are a pathetic chump. Similarly you have women who view men as a lifestyle commodity. They are looking for someone who can pay for a lot of stuff and impress their friends.

                      Another issue is that where women are looked down on for being too promiscuous, women are forced to be selective about who they have sex with. I wasn’t a terribly hot chick in my youth, but even I probably could have had sex with dozens of men if I’d been willing to. However, I had very real fears of being labelled as a slut. I had a couple of one night stands in college and I was very careful not to tell even my closest friends,

                      I would really like to live in a society where women were not shamed for being sexual and do not feel that they have to use their sexuality as a bargaining chip to get “stuff.” I’d also like to live in a society where men didn’t view getting sex as a competition or see me as an adversary who they have to manipulate into “giving it up.”. Are there any such societies? I don’t know.

                    • Bay Area Guy says:

                      @ Sarah

                      Another issue is that where women are looked down on for being too promiscuous, women are forced to be selective about who they have sex with. I wasn’t a terribly hot chick in my youth, but even I probably could have had sex with dozens of men if I’d been willing to. However, I had very real fears of being labelled as a slut. I had a couple of one night stands in college and I was very careful not to tell even my closest friends,

                      That, right there, is the problem. In spite of slut shaming, and the fact that you weren’t a terribly hot chick in your youth, you still could have had dozens of sexual encounters.

                      How many men can say the same?

                      The reason why slut shaming exists, and why studs are respected while sluts ridiculed is because men actually have to put in work to become studs. They have to develop confidence, dress better, deal with rejection after rejection, and overall cultivate better qualities. For women to be sluts, they simply have to be there (as Jim Jefferies once put it) and have a pulse.

                      I personally have known fat, frumpy women who have had multiple sexual encounters. I have never known fat, unattractive men who have enjoyed similar experiences.

                      If you want this problem to end, the sexual/dating marketplace needs to become more equitable for men, and women need to stop being so damn picky.

                    • @BayAreaGuy

                      You don’t see a contradiction in what you’re saying there? You’re complaining that women are more promiscuous than men, and yet you want them to be less picky? No, what you want is to diversify their pickiness, is what you want.

                      I’ve long observed that girls with low self esteem sleep with everyone because they think they can’t be too picky, but guys with low self esteem sleep with no one because they can’t sell themselves. How can you sell a product you don’t believe in? And it is noticeable that I’ve been very bad in the sales jobs I’ve had as well.

                      Women don’t realise how difficult it is for a guy, and boast about getting an ex out of their system by sleeping around, and when you say that isn’t an option for you they don’t believe you; they think “I can sleep around, why can’t you sleep around? That’s what guys do isn’t it?”

                      But this is the thing, women being less picky isn’t going to improve the situation. In fact let’s suppose that it all comes down to confidence; if the model of dating is “I’m the salesman, she’s the customer, I’ve got to sell myself to her.” – well it’s obvious from that model why the girl with the low self esteem says “Well, I’m never going to get a better deal than this. I’m sold”, whereas the girl with higher self esteem says “I’m going to go away. Think about it. See what else is on the market.”; The guy being the salesman, well we know fast-talking sociopathic liars will always be good salemen – turn that negative into a positive – particularly with the modern commission based pressure sales that dominate the market – a conscience is a severe disadvantage; okay for the rest of us, we could only “sell” a product we personally thought was good, and we wouldn’t want to put the customer under pressure, we’d want to give them a chance to think; when we begin to realise the product is not of the best quality then you won’t even try to sell it and even try to deter customers; the worst kind is the guy with low-self esteem still trying to do the high-pressure sales thing, because he knows he’s lying, but he’s got to lie because he’s on commission, he’s nervous, he doesn’t make eye contact, his hands sweat – he is the epitome of a creep.

                      The way to level that playing field isn’t for women to be less picky, it’s actually for them to be more picky and also to not expect men to always make the first move, have higher standards – I don’t mean go for the guys that are physically fittest, in fact ignore what the media tells them they should go for, but follow their heart, and hence diversify in their pickiness – actually do the things they keep telling us to do! Get to know someone, so you’re not taking forgranted the version of themselves they are “presenting” but the real person underneath, don’t buy into what the media tell you you should be after, become friends with a man and don’t let the fact that he is a friend be the reason for not sleeping with him – not fancying him is a good reason for not sleeping with him and if that’s the reason state it because that whole “don’t want to ruin our friendship” is a double-bind – we were told we were supposed to get to know you! Don’t see men as being either husband material or itch-scratchers, dispose of that dichotomy and let things be what they are; and reclaim the concept of love and romance for it’s own sake – not a goal-orientated process to fulfil a tickbox on the to do checklist (1. Shag around, 2. Get a husband). And don’t think that going without sex for a week means you’re hard done by; guys go without sex for years, sometimes.

                      So, you’re wrong. In fact the fact that you think that girls should be less picky reflects on your self-esteem. You’re thinking if only they’d lower their standards enough they’d give me a chance. No, if they raise their standards enough they will look far enough to find you.

                    • @Bay Area Guy, so are you saying I should have been less “picky” and gone ahead and had sex with dozens of guys in college (most of whom were simply drunk and willing to go home with anyone)? Is that the solution? That doesn’t sound so great to me for a number of reasons.

                    • Bay Area Guy says:

                      it’s actually for them to be more picky and also to not expect men to always make the first move, have higher standards – I don’t mean go for the guys that are physically fittest, in fact ignore what the media tells them they should go for, but follow their heart, and hence diversify in their pickiness – actually do the things they keep telling us to do!

                      I agree regarding the “diversity their pickiness” part. Female pickiness wouldn’t be so much of a problem if they weren’t all picky in the same way.

                      However, let’s be real here. None of what you just described above is ever going to happen.

                      The only way female behavior is going to change is if there are significant social consequences for how they act.

                    • Sarah

                      Have you noticed that men who have slept with, say, 50 women are much less bothered about a woman’s sexual past, when settling down?

                      It is the chicken and egg parable.

                      You say women find fewer men sexually attractive because they get slut-shamed and have to be picky. I say women get slut-shamed because slut-shaming developed in response to an inherent difference in sexuality b/w men and women. It developed in order to ensure a monogamous society which would allow every man to have a woman.

                      There is no basis of slut-shaming other than male sexual jealousy and insecurity. Its not because men think a woman with 50 partners has lost her value, is damaged goods, is worth less as a human being, has become ‘morally corrupted’ etc. Ofcourse religions and social values have simply given a cover to male insecurities so we can all pretend its an issue of morality. Religions were made by men to protect male interests.

                      I have absolutely no disrespect for a woman who has slept with 100 men. But I would never want to get serious with one because (1) I’ve only had 2 partners in life and would like someone with a similar history and (2) I cannot measure up to her past. I am truthful enough to acknowledge that its just about me…not her. Do you think this is still slut-shaming?

                      Other men are not so truthful and instead of acknowledging their own insecurity would rather scorn promiscuous women.
                      .
                      Slut-shaming is a direct result of male sexual jealousy. But why are men more sexually jealous than women? Consider this: People are more jealous and protective about something when its rare and difficult to obtain; when its wanted by many but can’t be had easily.
                      Can we say this holds true for female sexuality? If female sexuality was in abundance and available to men in a relatively egalitarian way, why would men be jealous? Why would there be a rationale for jealousy? Why would our early male ancestors stifle a sexual utopia that they were perhaps enjoying by restricting female sexuality? Men love sex don’t they? Perhaps because there was no sexual utopia for men. Perhaps because unrestricted female sexuality had a tendency to exclude most men.

                      My belief is that what we observe in the sexual realm of life, won’t be blamed on the double standard for long. They will have to come up with other explanations soon.

                  • @Sarah…

                    “I suspect many of the women are sex friendly with westerners because they are looking for a wealthy man to support not just them, but their extended family.”

                    Correct. I agree.

                    “I’d be curious to find out if young Thai women are equally sex friendly with the Thai boys down the road.”

                    No. It is primarily Western men. Japanese men are the largest sex tourist in Thailand. Few of these women look for a husband among them.

                    Yes, many many young Thai women, largely uneducated, are viewed as sex commodities. It is truly de-humanizing.

                    • I lived in Thailand for a year (on a small island in the gulf), and as a Westerner I was constantly offered sex from ‘prostitutes’. I put that word in quotes because these girls weren’t really pros, they simply could not pass up the opportunity to provide for their families. Most of them lived elsewhere, either in Bangkok or in a rural village somewhere, and they’d come down to the tourist mecca for a season, in order to save up and return to their families a hero, with no questions asked. The actual locals, however, tended to be ‘prudes’, because their actions were known to all. Rather than being ‘sex friendly’, traditional Thai culture is actually quite conservative. Even the ‘sluttiest hos’ never went swimming in less than jeans and a t-shirt.

                      Here’s an entertaining article about the Bangkok sex shows:

                      http://gypsysattva.wordpress.com/the-ping-pong-banana-show-for-tourist-looking/

      • Here’s a straight male writing about sex:

        The lifeguard-fantasy has got to be a hot one for girls, sure; I see them looking. I can see them picturing how big and hard it gets and I feel like shouting: Hey, up here! Look at my eyes! I’ve got a lot going on inside my head too- do you even care about that?

        (“I’m not just a piece of meat” won’t quite elucidate, that thought blocked as being too “feminine”…)

        When I’m feeling horny do I buy my palm a few drinks chat it up and all the rest of that tripe? Throwaway f***s. Still in your bed. Some person you don’t even know and don’t care to now that you’re spent; immediately you wish you could wipe her away like mopping up nut with a floor sock. Sex appeals, but a pud-pounding always straightens the mind.

        Why can’t it be sweet, why can’t she be nervous of me?

        A beautiful sleeparound girl decides she wants man meat so she picks a hard body for a night. No more does he own her then though than would she expect him to deny himself a different vagina when he next feels the immediacy of his need.

        How can I find in this age what I crave?

        I dream of the one who saves it for me, fully aware of how priceless that makes her. Who has resisted her hormonal curiosity, who intuits an older wisdom than this current libidinousness- who bides her time and makes total love her ultimate goal… I know what I want and its transcendent soul-fire. I want a woman who would fucking DIE for me, is that too much to ask?

        Throwing a wide net one is bound to catch fish. But the old man of the sea carefully baits a lure irresistible to the singular prize he seeks, he sets a sharp hook designed to set deep but only if swallowed completely; not every nibble’s a marlin so the wise salt is patient; he bides his time and plays out line and patience because schooling fish are plentiful for the taking but what’s worth the wait is rare indeed; netfuls of clones affect in him antipathy.

        (Excerpted from ’13 Moons’ by Gypsysattva)

    • Hi micheal

      This most be an interesting new phenomena:
      Young men have no longer a sex drive.
      Interesting don’t you think?

      Do these young men also say NO to online porn on their computers or do they simply prefer porn to real ses with women/ girls?

      After all Michael you are the father and not one of these young men. Are you sure they share all their sexual secrets with you? Do teens do that in America? To me that sounds weird and even somewhat incestiuos.

      • @Iben…..

        “Jayne Dallas, a senior studying advertising who was seated across the table, grumbled that the population of male undergraduates was even smaller when you looked at it as a dating pool. “Out of that 40 percent, there are maybe 20 percent that we would consider, and out of those 20, 10 have girlfriends, so all the girls are fighting over that other 10 percent,” she said.”

        This was excerpted from a NYT article. So, you have a 40% male student ratio at most major universities and colleges in America. Right out of the gate 50% of these guys are tossed as unattractive. So, as the young lady notes, essentially are fighting and poaching the remaining 20%.

        See:
        http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/07/fashion/07campus.html?pagewanted=all

        Maybe this is why young boys are not interested in girls. The girls are clearly NOT interested in most boys. Rather only a select few. This continues both through college AND as young adult women. Hence, men turn to porn, prostitutes, and/or become involuntarily celibate.

        What other choice(s) do they have given this very very skewed view of attraction women in America have for men?

        • Jules

          Do we misunderstand each other?

          I now have read this article you show us here:
          “The phenomenon has also been an area of academic inquiry, formally and informally. “On college campuses where there are far more women than men, men have all the power to control the intensity of sexual and romantic relationships,” Kathleen A. Bogle, a sociologist at La Salle University in Philadelphia, wrote in an e-mail message. Her book, “Hooking Up: Sex, Dating, and Relationships on Campus,” was published in 2008.

          “Women do not want to get left out in the cold, so they are competing for men on men’s terms,” she wrote. “This results in more casual hook-up encounters that do not end up leading to more serious romantic relationships. Since college women say they generally want ‘something more’ than just a casual hook-up, women end up losing out.”

          • Iben

            “On college campuses where there are far more women than men, men have all the power to control the intensity of sexual and romantic relationships,” says Kathleen A. Bogle..

            “Women do not want to get left out in the cold, so they are competing for men on men’s terms,” she wrote. “This results in more casual hook-up encounters that do not end up leading to more serious romantic relationships. Since college women say they generally want ‘something more’ than just a casual hook-up, women end up losing out.”

            The hookup scene is not for every guy. Again the study/book you mention clearly misses guys’ perspective. For most guys, the only way is to pursue a single girl as a girlfriend and then have sex with her. The hook up scene on campuses is for relatively attractive and popular guys.

            Most guys cannot just “hookup” with girls. Most guys have to go through the ‘proper’ dating process – A process that takes time and effort. Don’t you see all the rules and do’s and dont’s of dating given to men by the ‘dating experts’.. There are many threads on GMP alone. Do you think guys who need this advice are “hooking up” with girls in real life? These guys are worried about what to say on a date, how to act and when to escalate things sexually. Do you think guys who just hookup with girls need this advice?

            The observation by Kathleen A Bogle is only partially true. Let me try and illustrate this with a hypothetical example.

            Suppose a girl has 3 dating prospects. 2 are average looking regular guys, but one is handsome and/or popular, and is her first choice. However this guy has plenty of other girls interested in him too which means she will have to compete for his attention. He will not put too much effort into pursuing her and she will have to date him on his terms. If he suggests having sex, she has a quick decision to make. He could say “Hey lets just have a sexual relationship first w/o strings and see where things go” She might think “Ok..I’ll give it a try..lets see how this plays out”. And there you go. They have “hooked up”

            This might contrast with her dating ‘strategy’ with the other 2 average looking guys. She might tell her female friend something along the lines of..”I’m seeing this guy these days, we’ve been going out for 2 months now, he was interested for some time and asked me out; he seems nice but we haven’t slept together because I haven’t made a decision yet”

            Notice the difference

            In the first case she has sex with the guy very early in the courtship process w/o requiring the effort, time and conditions she requires from the other guys. Those guys will probably have to be friends with her first for a while, then date and pursue her and she might only have sex with them if the relationship becomes “official”. She might tell them “I wait for 3 months atleast before I sleep with someone”
            But she would never dare tell this to the attractive guy.

            So this is what the author is referring to when she talks about “women wanting more than just hooking up, but doing that anyway because that’s the only way to begin relationships.” Yes, that’s the only way to begin relationships with attractive and popular guys with a lot of options…not with regular guys. They will still date girls the traditional way and they do.

            This was just a hypothetical example. The point here is that young women set very different rules, boundaries and terms in dating, with different guys

            • Tim
              It seems like neither the hoock up culture or the American mating rituals called ” dating” is the best way for men and women to start romantic relationships.
              But cultures don’t change over night.

              Maybe you can be creative and come up with a third way? That can fascinate the young women. You set the rules,and do things a new way. Be innovative !

              Hoock ups only lead to bed-jumping,STD and broken hearts.

              • @Iben…..

                Hello!

                You are absolutely correct! We need a “third road.” I find very little difference between dating and just having sex. I think we need to start to think outside the box.

              • John Anderson says:

                “Hoock ups only lead to bed-jumping,STD and broken hearts.”

                First of all, hooking up and sex is also fun. One of the best times I has in high school was when we had a retreat at a women’s college. I got a lot of action with college women over that weekend. It was probably statutory rape and lead to two discussions between me and my religion teacher, but I was the aggressor initially and don’t have any regrets at least at least now. I might view it differently in the future.

                When I was growing up, we had a small Asian community in a white neighborhood. Because a lot of people had to be petitioned over, these families knew each other from the Philippines. The families were friends. I was friends with one guy. My older brother was friends with his older sister. My younger sister was friends with his younger brother, etc. We grew up together as friends and many of the people in our group dated each other. It led to marriage for some.

                Maybe a third option could be something similar to that. I heard that arraigned marriages work because you don’t just marry the person, you marry the family.

                • Michael says:

                  Hey, I’ve got the third way. Here it is.

                  If you really really desire the guy, go and get him. Let nothing interfere.
                  Same thing if you really desire the girl.
                  But if you don’t really want him or her, if your desire is nonexistent or just a tepid pathetic thing, then don’t approach him or her looking for sex. It will be awful for both of you and sap the life out of you.

                  • Michael
                    If you with desire mean desire that includes a relationship I agree with you.:)
                    Yes that would make life a lot easier for all of us.

                    • Michael says:

                      Desire is desire for possession, and what anyone means by possession is what what he finds in his inflamed imagination. It could be a one time thing.

            • John, I think what you are saying is true for some women but certainly not all. I’ve read articles arguing that the hysteria over “hookup” culture is overblown and that only a minority of students of either gender actively participate. I don ‘t know, I’m not in college, but I doubt it’s true that young women have really universally become as promiscuous as the media thinks.

          • Iben

            There was a study which said that on college campuses 15-20% of boys are having most of the (casual) sex.

            Another study says that on college campuses the median number of partners is higher for girls than boys.

            Another study says there are more virgins boys on college campuses than girls. (ironic isn’t it..given that girls face slut-shaming and judgement more than boys and by that logic there should be more virgin girls)

            Yet another study says that less attractive and overweight girls have more sex partners, are more adventurous than more attractive ones.

            Iben, I can go on and on with all kinds of evidence. It will point to the one direction that you already know by now.

            • Tim

              But what is the explanation?
              Was it always like this in America ?
              And if this is a new cultural trend in America,then when did this start?

              Have you read about similar phenomena in Europe,Australia and rest of the world?

              This sounds like a culture where women idealizes a certain type of men.
              Do these men look models and movie stars?
              Or do they have the best grades and best exams and a bright future ahead of them?

              If American women for centuries have valued the best breadwinner as their favorite partner,,maybe the pendulum now have svung to the opposite direction:
              Now they want the most sexy ones?

              Did’t men do this for a long time? Go after the most beautiful and sexullly exiting women?

              • @Iben…

                hi!

                “This sounds like a culture where women idealizes a certain type of men.
                Do these men look models and movie stars?
                Or do they have the best grades and best exams and a bright future ahead of them?”

                I will not go so far as to say they “idealize” certain types of men. It really depends on the life stage of the woman, whether it is a casual sex hookup, or whether she is looking for a LTR or to get married.

                One thing is for certain: clearly women prefer men with great bodies for sex. It is a major turn on for most here in America. That why so many of them can have sex with thugs, derelicts,…..If they are well built, then many women could care less. This is becoming MORE common. It’s “Empowering.”

                Only those few 15%-20% of men, regardless of social status or background enjoy such privilege.

            • Bay Area Guy says:

              @ Tim

              Do you have links to these studies?

              • This study says fat girls are more likely to engage in risky sexual activity (casual sex), have more partners, and more adventurous than regular weight girls.

                Effects of Overweight on Risky Sexual Behavior of Adolescent Girls (Susan Averett, Hope Corman & Nancy Reichman)
                http://www.nber.org/papers/w16172

                This study (go to page 59 – 61) says The percentage of virgins on college campuses is. Male 42% and Female 37%. (Before accounting for the fact that men largely inflate their numbers while women under-report)
                https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/221153.pdf

                • Bay Area Guy says:

                  @ Tim

                  Thanks for the links!

                  It really does shed light on why the whole stud/slut double standard exists. It’s easy to become a slut, it’s hard to become a stud.

                  If virginity rates among young men and women, and access to sex were equal among both genders, then I would agree that this double standard is unfair.

                  But until then, nah.

            • @Tim….

              “There was a study which said that on college campuses 15-20% of boys are having most of the (casual) sex.”

              It’s the same outside of colleges and universities too.

            • John Anderson says:

              @ Tim

              “Yet another study says that less attractive and overweight girls have more sex partners, are more adventurous than more attractive ones.”

              I could tell you that when it comes to strippers, the less attractive ones are usually more open to going “above and beyond”. We just attributed it to them having to do more to attract customers to make up for the difference in beauty. I suspect less attractive women are more adventurous in the bedroom because they’re worried about losing their boyfriends to a more attractive woman.

              You might think that this invalidates your point except that I’ve found that women find men who have girlfriends more attractive. I’ve found this to be true. That’s why when me or the guys would go to a club with female friends they always agreed to give us a dance to “get us started”. Other women would see us dancing with them and we became more attractive.

              I know a guy who hadn’t dated in years. Then he got a date and a girlfriend. Next thing you know women are calling him even some of the women who turned him down.

              • I once read an interview with a woman who worked in a brothel. She talked about how the heavier, less attractive women had to offer more for the money in order to get clients. She mentioned that the most attractive women in the brothel refused to do anal for any price whereas the fat girls would offer to do it for free.

              • I suspect less attractive women are more adventurous in the bedroom because they’re worried about losing their boyfriends to a more attractive woman.

                At first this might appear to be grounds for sympathy for those women. But upon closer observation, you realize that less attractive overweight women have to put out early and put up with ‘kinky’ sexual demands, in order to keep the interest of men who are out of their league, to begin with….not the guys who are their equals. They don’t have to do any of that for those guys. They would happily date them in a way they want.

                It is not uncommon for average looking women to have flings and sexual relationships with men better looking than themselves and only to get burned and then start relationships with men at their level.

        • Jules

          The American Dream.
          This is what you get when a society is based on the value system expressed in The American Dream.
          I watched a little of you last election campaign and heard how your politicians bashed Europe with it welfare state and demonstrated their ignorance.

          Many things can be said about welfare states, but it does not pressure women to fight for a tiny percentage of men ,with super human qualities that guaranteed will make it and succeed in society. I am only guessing now, but this is one way to understand this.
          To see all this women as evil or selfish is closing your eyes to the larger picture.

          • @Iben…

            “Do we misunderstand each other?”

            Iben, I do not think we misunderstand one another. The point I was trying to make is just how overly selective young women are in picking men in America. I don’t know if the American Dream is the culprit or selfishness….I really do not know the answer.

            The New York Times (NYT) piece was in a college environment. So, just why these young women immediately find half the guys as unattractive I just really don’t know. It even exist at the Ivy League college and universities. My guess is it is based solely of physical/sexual attractiveness.

            You write,

            “Many things can be said about welfare states, but it does not pressure women to fight for a tiny percentage of men ,with super human qualities that guaranteed will make it and succeed in society.”

            You and I can agree! Most Americans know very little about Texas let alone Europe! Ignorance abounds in America when it comes to our knowledge and understanding of other nations and their cultures. What’s even worse is the lack of interest in even trying to learn about other societies. We would rather watch, “Housewives of Atlanta…..”

            Our country is driven by entertainment and not a longing for knowledge and understanding. I am a very curious and knowledge seeking man. I seek to understand observed conditions. Just my highly analytical background. So, when I observe women in America chasing after a select few men, I want to know and understand “Why?” You have to research and ask questions.

            “To see all this women as evil or selfish is closing your eyes to the larger picture.”

            I do not Iben. It is just know that here in America there are a lot of women who are just flatly dishonest to men. Why? I don’t know. I am seeking that answer.

          • “Many things can be said about welfare states, but it does not pressure women to fight for a tiny percentage of men ,with super human qualities that guaranteed will make it and succeed in society. ”

            Iben, are you saying that American women commodify sex?

            • I think Iben’s got a point; it’s not just the economics it’s how the economics makes us consider people. If we live in a society that makes a big deal out of being “a winner” then that affects out attitudes to sex. “Love don’t pay no bills”.

              Oh I’m sure I remember a quote by Lenin on how a man wouldn’t be able to buy a woman with expensive gifts after the revolution and that love would play the role it should, but I can’t remember it and I certainly can’t find it. It’d make me sound very learned if I could quote it – let’s just pretend I did!

              But, yes we have a utilitarian, competetive, exploitative and distrusting attitude to people economically and that gets reflected throughout society in other ways – not just in America but in Britain also. Where Thatcher can say something like (for example) “A man who, beyond the age of 26, finds himself on a bus can count himself as a failure.” how that attitude permeates, infects and toxifies society. It’s only very strong and self-aware women who wouldn’t commodify sex and men in a society where that is the prevailing message.

              • @Joseph….

                “Don’t see men as being either husband material or itch-scratchers, dispose of that dichotomy and let things be what they are; and reclaim the concept of love and romance for it’s own sake – not a goal-orientated process to fulfil a tickbox on the to do checklist (1. Shag around, 2. Get a husband).”

                I am replying to your comment to Bay Area Guy. No space up top.

                You made some great points. I am going to both agree AND disagree with you on some things. Yes, the dichotomy is terrible. Not just for women but men too. So, I am going to agree with you here. Why? What the dichotomy does is it permits women to be less picky with the “itch scratched (thugs, derelicts, playboys, jokers, losers, etc) because they are valued for sex and not relationships. Simultaneously, women become MORE picky when it comes to LTRs and marriage. In fact way too picky.

                So, it really depends on “which” men women should consider being more or less picky with. However, the real issue is that it boils down to the complexity of female sexuality. There are studies that show women are attracted to different types of men based on the phase of her cycle. One study found that during the phase when she is MOST likely to get pregnant she actually desires a physically fit, Alpha male, or a guy who is know for good sex. During other phases, Mr. Beta please.

                What I really hear you saying is women should be more picky in that they should avoid the sociopaths, degenerates, derelicts,…….They should always go for quality men. But quality base on whose definition? Male or female?

                I really think if women had zero sexual restrictions (of any kind) we would have harems. They would gravitate towards either men who were fit and known for great sex OR men with $$$$. I really think this is how it would play out.

                Already, you see it with the men whom a lot of young women have sex with….It has zippy to do with their self esteem. There are women with high self esteem, highly educated, and yet they opt for an “itch scratcher” It is their female desire to sex certain types of men. That is what they are seeking at that moment in time.

                What I am suggesting is women should be less picky about the types of men whom they see as sexually attractive. Right now, the box is quite narrow and contains a lot of bad men. But, only women can control whom they are sexually attracted too. It is really up to them to change this very very narrow view of male sexual attraction.

                Of course the feminists are going to scream that once again, patriarchy is trying to put the kibosh of female sexual freedom. And they could be right!

              • @Joseph…

                You mentioned V I Lenin. …Marx was the first to apply the Hegelian dialectic method to a materialist concept of human progress. Progress is driven by economic systems. The freer the economic system, the freer the society. Thus, you have progress.

                Marx argued (correctly I say) that the base (economic system – e.g., dog-eat-dog capitalism) determines the “super structure” in any society. By super structure he was referring to the politics, the culture, the arts, etc. Hence, our economic system is largely responsible where we are with respect to our social conditions, including sexuality.

                Hence, under a dog-eat-dog uber competitive capitalist society you will see many of the things Sarah noted. And we do!

                In America, Marx is not treated seriously as a philosopher and historical figure. In fact, I can say he was an intellectual giant. But due to ideological reasons, Marx is derided in America. He is one of the great classical economists (with Smith, Ricardo, Mill, etc.).

            • Mr Supertypo says:

              @Iben

              I can not find your comment so I write here.

              I am not quelified to say anything about American women. I am not one of them. And I have only lived in America for a year.

              But so many men here on this website tells us that a huge percentage of men in America never get a girlfriend. And I wonder why?

              What is going on if a society has 30-40% percent of men living as incels?

              I do not know if that percentage is correct,it it seems to me that many men feel rejected by absolutely all women.

              Do you know why?

              I do not know why. But it is weird….l

              I cant find your comment, Iben, so I am “forced” to reply here.

              Thats also my impression, from what I read. And to me that’s both puzzling and scary at the same time. My interpretation is men fight in the arena, and women choose the best gladiator/knight. Im sure this is incorrect but from reading only the testimony on this site and others….thats the picture I create in my mind.

              If its true, then it must be a cultural thing, maybe a bi-product of a super competitive society? but is this true for all social classes or just for the medium high echelons of the USA’ns society? Is the AM. culture hostile to women who opens up sexually (Im aware of slut shaming, but I mean beside that) similar to when men opens up emotionally? anyways if true, to me it seems women and men are even more “oppressed” now than before. But I dont live there…so I cant say, I can only listen to the explanation of (some) people who live this reality on their own skin. I need to do a research looking maybe at some DJ blog and make a comparision with my own reality….

              • Mr Supertypo

                You live in Scandinavia.
                What is your impression? Are 20-30% of all Danish men incels?
                Is this an issue at all? Or is possible that American men simply are more honest ?

                And what about Italien men?

              • @Mr Supertypo…

                It is not true for all social classes, nor races or ethnic groups.

                I think it is a white middle and upper middle class thingy. That does NOT mean it does not exist in lower classes or other racial/ethnic groups. It is just far far less prevalent.

                I am high status male of average looks and pretty damn fit for my age, 50. I am also a black man. Without a doubt I have greater opportunities for sex. Hands down.

                Black women are no where near picky as white women. Nor are Hispanic women. I guess you can say they all “slum.” But some just go over the top with it.

                I have white women attracted to me sexually (Black fantasy) and for being a high status man. Many also just like me because I am a pretty charming and laid back guy, besides being intelligent and confident. Believe it or not, I have enjoyed the least success with Black women here in America. Black women from other parts of the world like me more.

                But, I am not into having a bunch of lovers, casual sex,……I like and appreciate monogamy with lots of sex. I just like one woman who is a great human being, intelligent, passionate, good personality, and a nice ass. She need only be of average looks. That’s it! She can be a size 6 or 16. Could care less.

      • Michael says:

        No they don’t share their sexual secrets with me. But since we decided that they could have sex in our house if they wanted they don’t have to sneak around (This was common where I lived.) So I could see what went on. As i say, it was not that they didn’t have sex, but that it was a very low priority. Unlike me, they didn’t think it was the end of the world if they went for a long time without a girlfriend. Porn? They preferred World of Warcraft. They played on a team and were constantly yelling back and forth.

    • Archy
      Here how this father sees it:
      ” Sex was supposed to be fun, but it wasn’t that much fun because once you had it you had this girl hanging around and she was just a pain in the ass. “…….

      “Sex had become something that you do when you have nothing better to do.” ….”found sex to be a waste of time. “Scratching an itch”…..

      This father talks about his sons and seems to be pround of theirs inability to love,their inability to form romantic relationships, and fully supports their degrading attitudes towards women in general.

      I see it as normal that young men and women focus on studies sport and being with theirs friends instead of chasing for sex.
      But the degrading way this father talks about women may also be why his sons turn out exactly like him.
      A woman hater,that only see sex as an activity to get rid of itching,and a wast of time .
      All women know men like that. They are not good men. And they do a lot of harm.
      Who give them the right to use women bodies to get rid of their itching?

      You are a better man than this man Archy. You feel love for women and want emotional closeness to them. You are blessed.

      • @Archy,

        Sorry Archy. My comments were directed to Iben.

        My apology.

      • Michael says:

        I think I am just being honest. Look at two couples who go out together for dinner. The women will talk together and so will the men. Women and men have different interests. And to tell you the truth I have observed that men who enjoy being in social settings with a number of women do not present a sexual interest. As Plato put it early on, we desire what we don’t have. Most women are bored with sports, politics, and the way things work. They are interested in what is going on in the neighborhood.

        • @Michael…

          “Most women are bored with sports, politics, and the way things work. They are interested in what is going on in the neighborhood.”

          I think you are painting with a pretty broad brush here. I live in Maryland. I don’t see couples pairing of as you say. If they are all wives and husbands, yes. But, if it is dating arrangement, it is quite different.

          Also, I find a LOT of women interested in politics, football, baseball, the economy, and other issues.Perhaps it depends on generation. But, what I like most is a very engaging woman. I have met many of these women. I am dating a woman who is a police officer. She has a BA degree and is working on a Masters (Cyber Security). She loves ALL the things you said women are not interested.

          • Michael says:

            @ Jules
            I see. And do you find a woman police officer sexually attractive? Sounds to me like she is just one of the guys in every way? We humans have big brains and can become many things. Naturally, since my boys were both athletes some of the girls who hung around were also athletes. This was especially true for my boy who was a soccer player, because girls play soccer too. There was not much interest in sex here from either side. Until he was about eight years old they even had mixed teams. But pretty soon the boys got a lot better, and the ones who were serious about soccer didn’t want to play with the girls any more. They wanted a serious team. Sometimes girl soccer players hung out with them but they offered no sexual interest. Maybe you see it differently.From my perspective a woman who is interested in the men’s world sacrifices sexuality. No?

            • Maybe that’s true of female athletes, because the exercise produces physical changes; yes maybe they have sacrificed some sexuality, but not because they’ve chosen a masculine pursuit.

              Girls who like science or politics, which I guess you would also say was “men’s world” in your broad brush view of things, are very attractive, and having intellectual interests in common make women more attractive to me. Different tastes for different people I think you’ll find.

              And though I have no interest in Sports at all, I know many girls do take an interest in sports that aren’t less attractive as a result. Odd idea to be endorsing some sort of gender segregation. To me it’s odd, anyway.

            • @Michael…

              “men’s world”

              What’s that Michael? In my book, there really is no such thing. I am a big game hunter (love Elk hunting is what I am passionate about). She likes deer hunting with a bow. Screw the bow, I love my rifles. We are going Elk hunting in Montana this year. I have a Triumph motorcycle. She wants to buy a bike. She knows how to ride.If we are still together, I will get her one for Christmas.

              None of this bothers me one bit. She is still a kind-hearted, loving, and passionate woman.

              Yes, I do find her sexually attractive or she would not be my girlfriend. I even find her cute and sexy as hell in uniform with her Sig Sauer 40 pistol!

              Outside of work, she writes with a pink pen, has a very very soft and gentle disposition about herself, wears boy shorts (lace). The sex is awesome!

              • I too am dating a woman who’s interested in sports, politics, and philosophy (ie, “the way things work”). But I still think Michael has a valid point. She talks about these things with me because she values hearing a different/male perspective on a lot of these issues. But she generally doesn’t talk about these things in detail with her girlfriends when we’re out, and I rarely bring them up in conversation either. Even when we’re at home, I’m careful to limit how much time I spend talking about these things, since she is by all accounts more interested in other topics.

                Honestly, some of the best “relationship” advice I’ve ever gotten was to NEVER talk about serious topics in a bar or on a date. Since taking that advice, my dates have been a lot more interesting and successful, and I’m much more comfortable weaving in and out of conversations with women that leave almost all other guys in the dust. Of course, not every woman prefers traditionally “girlie” conversations, but I’d rather play to the rule than the exception.

              • Michael says:

                Sounds like she’s what you might call traditionally feminine at some times and not at others. Of course hunting has always been a female pursuit (the huntress Diana). From what you say you can see the feminine even when she is in uniform. You see through the masculine facade the way you might see through a person pretending to be something. I agree that all this sounds really good to me. I just think you really see her as underneath really feminine. But maybe I am wrong. In any case good luck. Sounds like you have a good thing going there.

                • Alyssa Royse says:

                  What if we didn’t assign attributes like “strong” “brave” “tough” and the like to either gender. Or activities like hunting or cooking and whatnot to any gender. And, instead, just had a list of attributes that we know either gender is capable of. Then we could think about what qualities and activities attract us in friends and lovers alike. Then, rather than a woman being either masculine or feminine, or a guy being either masculine or feminine, we would just have people with attributes and activities. It would change nothing about our sexuality, but it might change a lot about how we think about the roles and expectations of genders. There would be a lot less fear and shame in being true to who we are if society didn’t confine us…..

                  • Bay Area Guy says:

                    @ Alyssa

                    Well, that isn’t gonna happen, at least not in my lifetime. In the meantime, us men should work out, develop “confidence” (which, let’s face it, is female speak for “masculinity”), and learn how to be the assertive/dominant Christian Grey type figure that women lust after so much.

                    • Agreed.

                      I also think “it would change nothing about our sexuality” is being too complacently assumed. Our sexuality, as the moderns like to say, is socially and therefore historically constructed. Historically, these qualities have always been gendered. Our sexualities have been built on these gender differences if not polarities. So changing the assignments of gender means precisely that our sexuality will be changed.

          • Jules
            What is ” a mans world”?
            Maybe you are talking with a troll?
            How can a female police women not be attractive,or a women specialist in Marin biology, architecture,….technology,journalism,film producer ,web designer,……
            A man that only can talk about soccer must be incredibly boring company for any human being.

            • @iben…

              I think you meant for this comment to be for Michael.

              I never said these things. Nor do I believe it to be so. Michael did.

              • Jules

                I though Michaels views were so extreme that I started to suspect he was Internet Troll trying to wind you up.

                And your girlfriend sounds great. I hope it lasts . You certainly deserve it.
                Close the door to the past Jules and move forward, and try let go of the bitterness and hurt.

          • Michael says:

            “But, if it is dating arrangement, it is quite different.” Yes and in that case there could be sexual innuendo across the couples. But what I am talking about is what women are interested in when they are not interested in sex. Women are fun for sex, and that includes all the little things you can do in public including talk about things and mean other things. But what do women talk about among themselves. Sports? Politics?

      • @Iben…..

        “Who give them the right to use women bodies to get rid of their itching?”

        Women do the same Iben. In fact, I would argue they are far more guilty of such than men.

        So,
        Who give women the right to use men bodies to get rid of their itching?

        You are a woman, so ask them. I am sure they will be a lot more forthcoming to you than a man.

        Just saying.

      • FlyingKal says:

        Iben,
        This father talks about his sons and seems to be pround of theirs inability to love,their inability to form romantic relationships, and fully supports their degrading attitudes towards women in general.

        I see it as normal that young men and women focus on studies sport and being with theirs friends instead of chasing for sex.
        But the degrading way this father talks about women may also be why his sons turn out exactly like him.
        A woman hater,that only see sex as an activity to get rid of itching,and a wast of time .
        All women know men like that. They are not good men. And they do a lot of harm.
        Who give them the right to use women bodies to get rid of their itching?

        Michael is not talking about women and committed relationships. He is talking about sex as a pastime, and possibly as entertainment. How you can twist his intentions like this is beyond my understanding.

        • FlyingKal says:

          Sorry, I butchered the quote in the last post. I’m trying again:

          Iben,
          This father talks about his sons and seems to be pround of theirs inability to love,their inability to form romantic relationships, and fully supports their degrading attitudes towards women in general.

          I see it as normal that young men and women focus on studies sport and being with theirs friends instead of chasing for sex.
          But the degrading way this father talks about women may also be why his sons turn out exactly like him.
          A woman hater,that only see sex as an activity to get rid of itching,and a wast of time .
          All women know men like that. They are not good men. And they do a lot of harm.
          Who give them the right to use women bodies to get rid of their itching?

          Michael is not talking about women and committed relationships. He is talking about sex as a pastime, and possibly as entertainment. How you can twist his intentions like this is beyond my understanding.

        • FlyingKal says:

          I guess it wasn’t me the…
          The quote from Iben’s post end with the sentence “Who give them the right to use women bodies to get rid of their itching?”

        • Hi Flyingkal

          He describes his young sons, maybe 16-18 years old young men.
          Try to imagine that you are a young girl .
          Or even better try to see yourself as a father of young girls 16-18 years old.

          Then as a father of young girls,go back and read this post we discuss one more time. Does it make you comfortable?

          Do you want your young daughters sexuality to be seems as ” fun” or ” pastime” or do you want it to be seen as something valuable,something to be treated with respect?

          Do you want young boys to bring her to bed,and the day after see her as a something that “want to hang around your neck?”

          If you do FlyingKal,then we have different values. I would bring up my sons and daughters to have values that says they can have sex in a relationship but not use others for one night just for fun or entertainment.

          And yes,I think young women also need to respect young men’s feelings and not play around with them,or exploit them.

          I agree that my comment was hash.impolite and cruel. I need to learn to be more diplomatic but attitudes like that needs to meet opposition. And this time it was me.

          • FlyingKal says:

            Iben,
            Do you want your young daughters sexuality to be seems as ” fun” or ” pastime” or do you want it to be seen as something valuable,something to be treated with respect?

            I don’t have any kids, nor will I ever have any, but that’s beside the point.
            What I want to see is that whenever sex occurs, both (or everybody…) involved mutually agree about it and derive as much pleasure and fun out of it as possible!
            And whether it’s happening within a mutually agreed longterm committed monogamy, or it is just on a short-term basis, a one-night stand or a “pastime”, is thereby totally beside the point!

            You see, I happen to believe that also women can have an active lust for sex. And if they can derive pleasure from it on their own terms, they should be free to do so without being confined to a committed relationship. Any objections to that?

            And no, I don’t think you need to be more diplomatic. I just think you are letting prejudice colour your interpretations of what other people are writing here, in a somewhat too large degree.

            • Flyingkal
              You are right we do not have the same values.
              I guess you are for prostitution and I am not.

              But you see if a girl want to ” hang around a boys neck ” the day after then she does not want a one- night stand.

              And why are you so angry?
              Why do you respond to my comments when you dislike me so much.
              From now on let’s both of us simply ignore the other.

              • FlyngKal says:

                Iben,
                Your flexibility about jumping to conclusions from my posts is really beyond my wildest imagination.
                I won’t even try to comprehend how what I wrote about how everybody involved in sex should “mutually agree about it and derive as much pleasure and fun out of it as possible!”, and the only conclusion you could draw from that was that I am for prostitution…!

                You have no clue what I’m talking about.
                And if I really was angry, that might partially be a reason to it. But as of now, I don’t see why it should bother me at all.
                So yes, ignoring each other sounds fine to me.
                (I wasn’t even gonna write this, as I was gonna take your word for it. But then I saw you had written a new response yourself, an hour later.)

                Looking forward to a great summer. Going to Norway, hiking and kayaking in Sognefjord and the Aurland area. So I’m gonna be just fine.

            • Flyingkal

              Here below you write as if 20 sex partners is a lot.
              But later you jump at me because I see one- night stands as unwise for young girls.
              Do you know how many days it is in a year ?
              Most young girls would reach the number 20 in a three weeks they lived out their sexuality.
              And you would say to your 16 year old daughter :” go ahead”.
              I question your intelligence when you advice your daughters to do that in today’s society.

              And you think 20 is many? ** smile **

              Here is your own words.:
              FlyingKal says:
              June 10, 2013 at 11:11 am
              I’d say that having been to bed with 20 different women says way more of a man’s capacity as a “charmer” than as a lover. Maybe he was dumped by all 20 after (or halfway through…?) the first session?
              So he real question here still remains unasked: Was he, in fact, even half as good as a lover as he pretended to be?
              (And where did he focus his attention in all this?)

              Reply

              • You are kind of assuming that each individual only has one type of sexual behaviour, so someone who solely had one night stands would clock up an enormous amount of partners if they had a new one each week say, but whilst one night stands are common, I don’t think there’s that many people that habitually choose to have one-night stands. What actually happens is one night stands for most people (who aren’t deliberately trying to clock up partners and aren’t deliberately using and discarding) happen whilst looking for a relationship, and one or both of them decide they don’t want to pursue a relationship. Now I suppose if you were being prudish about it you would say well if they had waited they might have found out before they reached that stage that they didn’t want a relationship; but when you’ve been stuck in a few will they won’t they friendships in a stalemate because there’s suddenly too much to lose you realise that a little less caution earlier on could have saved you a load of trouble!

                • Bit missing from one of those sentences! It was meant to read…

                  “What actually happens is one night stands for most people (who aren’t deliberately trying to clock up partners and aren’t deliberately using and discarding) happen whilst looking for a relationship, and, after the event, one or both of them decide they don’t want to pursue a relationship.”

                • Joseph

                  “You are kind of assuming that each individual only has one type of sexual behavior”

                  No Joseph I do not think most of us want one- night stands.
                  What I try to say is that you are very young when you are 16-20 years old.

                  When we are adults at 30+ we can see around corners and understand the emotional hurt sex without love and outside of relationships can give. As adults we know more what this is all about emotionally.

                  I do NOT think young girls dream of one- night stands at that age. At least I did not. But I had one steady boyfriend through all those years.

                  For adults I do not think sexual happenings is harmful at all and I had my fair share and only happy good memories.
                  But I would never ever raise my kids to go out in society in 2013 and live like this was a healthy place sexually for boys and girls . Because it is not.

                  In the future we can hope for a society that is heathy sexually and not totally messed up like today. But we have a long way to go.

                  Until then we have to cope as best we can, and inform the young about the reality we live in right now.
                  And it is still a fact that many,maybe most men will not marry a girl that has made love to a lot of men. This feeling or attitude is so strong in men,that I wonder if it is genetic.

                  And please read Sarah’s last post or comments about sexuality in our society today . Then maybe you understand what I mean. Sarah says it all so well,and that is what we send our young boys and girls into.

                  • @Iben….

                    “I do NOT think young girls dream of one- night stands at that age. At least I did not. But I had one steady boyfriend through all those years.”

                    Here is America today, not only are many dreaming it but they are actually engaging in it. The precise percentage I have no idea. I know it is more common for college aged women. But, even many high school girls do it too.

                    I can only speak about America. But, it just seems as if the sex thingy has been stood on its head. It yields crazy choices and equally crazy outcomes.

                  • I think it might just be that men don’t like to be with a woman that’s had more partners than they have.

                    But by the age of thirty I was resigned to it. 😀

                    Statistically the median number of partners for women is higher, so unless you are one of the fast-talking sociopaths, chances are your girlfriend has had more partners than you have, and she doesn’t think it’s important, because she has never had friends who try to use the number of partners they’ve had in oneupmanship. She’s never had her inability to “pull” make her the butt of jokes; she doesn’t know what it is to have lack of sex to source a feeling of inadequacy. But she understands that for a man it’s important so most girls try to give the impression that she’s had less experience than he has, because to have more than him enhances the feeling of inadequacy for him.

                    But as I say I’m resigned to it now. I’m beyond the age of trying to compete with women on numbers of sexual partners. Even though one is effectively losing a game against an opponent who’s not even trying! lol It’s absurd when you think about it.

                    That’s the worst thing, when you have a break up and within a week she’s got a new man, and you say “but we’ve only been split up a week! I wasn’t even sure we wouldn’t get back together.”, and then (I’m chuckling because this is such a George Castanza type of logic, but we all have an inner George) you think “well, it’s not fair! Because you can do that to get me out of your system, but I can’t do that to get you out of my system.”

                    When I was in that situation, she never understood why “I couldn’t do that”. Women do think it is as easy for us as it is for them. Or that it’s just me. They think “I’ve slept with three guys this month, and they had no problem getting me to sleep with them, therefore it must be easy for guys too right? Surely it should be easy for you too. Stop complaining”.

                    And then the other thing a woman can say “it just happened”. Really? It just happened? No warning that it was going to happen? Just like that! One minute no sex, and then suddenly sex? I don’t know what happened, it just happened!

                    But now I am just being whingy.

                    Nothing is going to change this. Both genders do need to have more respect for each other and themselves. And perhaps alter the way we judge each other.

                    • Hi Joseph
                      You are an interesting man! I am surprised you have any problems at all with women. I think you “can talk women into bed” with you ability to analyze. My compliments.

                      You also write
                      ✺ “Nothing is going to change this. Both genders do need to have more respect for each other and themselves. And perhaps alter the way we judge each other.”✺
                      And I agree.

                      It so great fun to read what you write ,all your comments are interesting.. Mayne you are as good in conversations as well.

                      Are you aware how many women think like this about men:” this one will be interesting to have breakfast with,year after year…” Great conversations are loved by many women Joseph.

                    • @Joseph

                      “…..and she doesn’t think it’s important, because she has never had friends who try to use the number of partners they’ve had in oneupmanship.”

                      I think it is because women just do not see this as an issue. Frankly, many of them view it as a huge plus. He is experienced. He must know how to give good sex…..

                      I was talking to a Jewish friend of mine. He said one of the reasons their culture is matrilineal was because often men did not know if they were the fathers of the child. (Btw, an estimated 15% of all kids born into a marriage in America has a father OTHER than the husband). But, being a Jew was what was MOST important. Hence, only the mother need be Jewish to be considered a Jew. The father could be the leader of Hamas. But, if the mother is Jewish, it’s a done deal.

                      It like why do women still want to fuck Jesse James, Tiger Woods, etc? Why don’t women consider these men man whores? In my opinion it simply does not matter from a female sexuality perspective.

              • FlyngKal says:

                And you think 20 is many? ** smile **

                If the median value for the entire population is 5 or 7, obviously 20 is quite a lot…

      • “This father talks about his sons and seems to be pround of theirs inability to love,their inability to form romantic relationships, and fully supports their degrading attitudes towards women in general.”

        Iben, deciding not to run around drooling after girls =/= inability to love, =/= degrading attitudes towards woemn, etc.

  144. As somewhat probably older than you are (50-something) woman, I find your article compelling in its truthfulness, but a little sad in its assumptions. Our culture does definitely support the “men as predators” paradigm, and is very damaging. However, there have always been those of us who have viewed sexuality in perhaps “exception to the rule” terms, i.e. seen men as often very vulnerable and not as predators. I may be somewhat unique in that my first experience of sexual intercourse occurred at a young age, with a partner who was equally as young and inexperienced as I, and I was definitely the pursuer. I think this made me aware of the power of my own sexuality from the get-go.
    That being said, I am saddened and alarmed by the dichotomy that has evolved which robs women of theri sexual assertiveness, and men of their humanity. Keep writing and talking and encouraging us all to be who we are!!

    • Quiet But Speaking says:

      I like what you just wrote. My perspective is one of being a mother to all sons, viewing this predator attitude thrown at boys who are innocent and just learning about their own bodies in Jr high and high school, and how hateful the world can be toward them. Thank you for your article. My young men are wonderful, decent human beings.

      • FlyingKal says:

        Quiet But Speaking:
        Hi and thank you for sharing your thoughts.
        My perspective is of growing up as a boy. I think it was actually more of a pursuer attitude, than a “predator”. Meaning that it’s few men who can get some kind of romantic attention from women without actively pursuing it and working for it.
        And ten I think that starting out as a pursuer, if you fail repeatedly to get some kind of attention, you either start to reinforce it (trying to imitate what you see are working for other people), eventually becmoing th “predator”. Or, you just roll it back and realize that you were not cut out for this.

      • @QuietButSpeaking…..

        Thanks for your wonderful comments. It is one of the few common sense remarks I have read.

        Yes, most men are wonderful and decent human beings.

        This “male predator” and “rape culture” nonsense is just that, nonsense.

      • I believe that the way American gender-feminists are “Empowering” themselves (mostly with their Alliances with American law enforcement) are in fact slowly but surely turning hetero-sexual relationships into a legal liability for guys. I believe the consequences of these Empowerment Alliances will have staggering long term effects.

  145. (Sorry if this is a duplicate. I’m experiencing technical problems at this end.)

    Taking the “demon” metaphor further, I wouldn’t mind if male sexual desire towards women was demonized sometimes. Sexual attraction can be impish, mischievous, chaotic, dangerous, and seem kind of devilish sometimes. A “demon” is not an entirely useless metaphor.

    I wouldn’t mind male sexuality being demonized if there was a lot more romanticization to balance it out a little bit, if we could imagine it as an angel half as much as we do as a demon. Where is male sexual attraction towards women treated as angelic, divine, empowering, enlightening, or spiritually positive? I’m not talking about treating the hetero male perspective as the norm or straight men dominating the culture. That’s not romanticizing male desire. Men are probably just as responsible for demonizing male desire as women are. (If you don’t think men do that, think about how you feel about the prospects of your daughter dating a man someday – what does that make you think of male sexuality?)

  146. Why am I not allowed to post?

  147. I was glad to read this. I was glad to find this site – I don’t think I can talk to anyone about my feelings about sex and courtship because I’ll be seen as weak by some of the men (and some of the women, to be fair) and by women who don’t see me as weak will probably suspect I’m trying to get into their beds using pity tactics – or maybe they won’t; maybe my female friends do trust me better than that – but that is the suspicion.

    I’m too old to be this conflicted still (42) but three years ago I came out of a ten year relationship with a girl who took the initiative after two years of my failing to; in fact of all the relationships I’ve had I think I only took the initiative in two. Actually in both of these it was a case of persistence paying off; and this is a problem, our experience, as men, is that persistence pays off, whereas throwing your hands up at the first objection and saying “sorry. my mistake” is read very much as ‘not really being that interested’.

    I was out with my co-writer last night. Of sorts we have a friendship, but it’s a friendship of convenience; I’d started writing with him before I got the full measure of what sort of man he is, and he’s not the sort of person I would want to socialise with on a regular basis. He is at his worse when he’s with his old carousing buddy. They will talk about the conquests they’ve had. Ironically, it’s a small world, I know his old carousing buddies ex-girlfriend; I know her because I’ve worked with her for years. She was engaged to him before the split. The split is amicable, but all her friends (apart from me) are saying “I thought you two were going to wind up together” and being sympathetic and what I want to say is “I’ve met him. I’ve seen how he is with other men and I can tell you he’s a misogynistic shit who treats sex like a sport and you’re better off without him”, but naturally that could be hurtful and less than helpful; and certainly not something you bring up out of the blue, and the natural conversational opportunity has not arisen.

    So my co-writer is talking in one of his anecdotes about how his last girlfriend had asked how many women he’d slept with and he rounded it down because he was aware the full figure might appall her. He rounded it down… to fifty.

    …from one hundred and fifty.

    I wanted to say “what would be more impressive is if you could name them and say what made each one special.”

    Now, to be fair, the guy clearly has a problem. If a woman had the same stats her friends would sit her down and say “you obviously have a problem. You’re clearly using sex to deal with something else.” but he knows full well that we’re supposed to see this statistic as an achievement and sign of his alpha-maledom.

    Here’s the issue of course; he’s had sex with (I know his choice of verb would be “done”) 150 women – there are 150 women whose concept of what a man’s sexuality is like are partly based on him, and I would say another 150ish probably that are based on his mate, but I think there may be quite a few in the intersection between the two sets. I’ve had ten lovers in all – as I say eight of those were the initiators of those encounters – so that’s ten women who’s view of a man’s sexuality is like is partly based on me. Or to put it another way, those of us who give a bad impression give a bad impression to far more women than those who give a good impression. When you think about it, it’s no wonder that women have such a negative view of our entire sex. It’s no wonder women are cautious and distrusting of men.

    The thing is, I suspect my response to that show of distrust is “I’m sorry my mistake” and go along just being friends, and the woman’s response to that is “just as I thought; he clearly wasn’t all that into me.”

    • Joseph
      You are right !

    • @Joseph…

      “Or to put it another way, those of us who give a bad impression give a bad impression to far more women than those who give a good impression. When you think about it, it’s no wonder that women have such a negative view of our entire sex. It’s no wonder women are cautious and distrusting of men.”

      I must respectfully disagree.

      The men who have given a bad impression are a select few. The majority of men treat women well. That majority is grateful to have a woman! Remember an estimated 20%-30% of men are involuntarily celibate. So, how is it that more men have given women bad imp