Sometimes the antidote is sitting right next to the poison.
Author’s Note: I’ve been commenting here for the better part of a year and in that time I’ve given as well as I’ve taken it when it comes the fire fighting that has gone on around in that time. However as much fun these firefights are they are not going to resolve the issues that are affecting us. It is time for all the fire fighting to stop. And if you’re reading this AB, thanks.
Lately a lot people have been contributing posts on the interactions between feminists, MRAs, their counterparts (anti-x), and those who are neither. For example Tim Pylypiuk recently opened up a space for egalitarian feminists to come and talk things out and Jasmine Peterson made a case for feminists that believe in equality for all people. One thing that a lot of us have certainly noticed is that things can get very tense when these conversations happen. I think I know where a lot of this tension comes from.
Why the dismissal of a person when you find out they are an MRA/feminist when saying you don’t want that done to you? Why try to minimize the experiences of others, in the exact same manner that others have done to you? Why take a defensive posture before determining if the other person is really attacking you? Why take pleasure in hurting someone when you know full well that the pain is counter productive to the conversation?
Because more than likely at some point you were hurt and now you want to hurt others to satisfy a grudge.
I bet for a lot of people it goes something like this.
You interact with members of a group and over time you develop criticisms about that group and some of its beliefs. You try to bring up those criticisms, and things went less than stellar. You try. You try try again. But ultimately you grow tired of trying to make your voice and concerns heard just to get verbally attacked for your efforts. Surely some of those instances may have been justified but that still doesn’t make up for all the times you were on the receiving end of some harsh, uncalled for, unfair, and straight up offensive sentiments does it?
At which time you reach a breaking point. The point where you don’t even bother with trying to be civil anymore right. A point at which anyone that even so much as appears to carry that label becomes your enemy. No need for an attempt at fair and open minded discourse you know that they are “one of them” and you know what “they” do because of the way some of them treated you in the past right?
♦◊♦
It feels good to strike them back with the very same hatred they struck you with right doesn’t it? However ultimately it’s useless. Useless for the very same reason their hatred didn’t actually get you to change your mind or give them a fair chance.
Yet you likely won’t notice this because by now you have been poisoned. Poisoned by the very hatred you once fought against. It’s in your mind, preventing you from thinking clearly. It’s in your eyes, preventing you from seeing clearly. It’s on your tongue, infecting everything you say.
But what can be done about it? How can you fight off the poison that has worked its way through your body to the point that you didn’t even realize it was there?
It’s possible but it’s going to take something that you probably don’t want to hear. I’ts going to take something that can only be found by coming in contact with the very thing you’ve come to hate.
You have to find examples of people that are associated with that label that do not embody the things you’ve come to hate. Remember that while you have come to hate everyone that uses that label, it wasn’t the label itself that was the original problem to start with. It was certain people with certain beliefs that carry that label that you have a problem with. It’s going to take putting serious effort into remembering that when it comes to groups of people it is indeed true that they are not all like that.
♦◊♦
There is one thing that people (and not just the ones in the cycle of hate I’m talking about here, but everyone) need to recognize. This is not an attempt to convince that hateful person that everyone of that group is all fine and dandy. That would be nearly impossible because remember, they are not all like that. This is about getting people who have closed their minds, eyes, and hearts to an entire group of people to give some members of that group a chance. This is also not an attempt to trying to convince said hateful person that the negative people that hurt them in the first place don’t exist or that the negativity they were exposed doesn’t exist. No this illusion will not work. And in fact attempting such a trick will pretty much backfire.
And also bear in mind that this is not a quick process. Don’t expect a person to go from hatred to fair minded overnight just as they (more than likely) didn’t go from fair minded to hateful overnight. There will be slip-ups, there will be blow-ups, there will be the occasional bit of rudeness. It’s a long and hard road but in the end it’s worth it. How do I know?
Because I’m on that road myself now.
♦◊♦
Recently I have been working on breaking from this exact cycle with feminists. I came across reasonable fair minded ones but I also came across some rather nasty ones. I tried to interact with them but to no avail. And even the fair minded one seemed to go out of their way to ignore the nasty ones (and not even in an “Don’t let them get to you.” way but in a “I don’t know any like that.” way). But as my efforts were met with malice I turned it back on them. It felt great to give them a taste of their own medicine but over time I came to despise not just the negativity that existed in the movement but grew to hate the label itself. Meaning at that point it didn’t matter how nice, fair, or open they were. They were a feminist, making them the enemy and were treated as such.
The biggest problem with such negativity that is that my points, which were once mostly strong, civil, and fair, were weighed down by hatred that turned even the most fair minded of feminists off when in more civil circumstances they might at the very least have respected my arguments even if they didn’t agree with them. Not only do your points get weighed down but they get covered up as well to the extent that people won’t even be able to see the validity and only the negativity. There is even a chance that the validity of your points will disappear altogether.
The poison has been identified, so where is the antidote? I’ll tell you that the first good spoonful of it was Joanna Schroeder. Unlike many of the feminists I’ve come across in my day I somehow managed to notice something about her. She was actually hearing out points of view that were critical of feminism and she didn’t respond with the hatred I knew all too well. Not only that but she actually acknowledged the weight and camouflage of the poison coursing through me and my words while at the same time not trying to use them as a way to dismiss what I had to say. I came to realize that coming out of the cycle would actually be worth it if there are feminists around like her. From there I saw another, and another, and so on. As I said above its not that they weren’t there is just that I had lost sight of them in my desire to attack all things feminist.
You may ask why I’m sharing this story and trying to deliver this message. Its because I know I’m not the only person whose view of feminism has been poisoned and I know that Joanna is not the only feminist that’s dispensing antidote. Most importantly if we are to finally get around to addressing all the ways in which the current system of gender roles is harmful to everyone we all have to have a clear and focused mind.
—Photo kevin dooley/Flickr
Good read man. Unfortunately, you are advising feminists about their failing tactics that are actually beneficial to the non-feminist sector.
Every time a feminist responds to intelligent discourse with hate, they expose themselves and brand their own movement as a hate movement.
Good read man. Unfortunately, you are advising feminists about their failing tactics that are actually beneficial to the non-feminist sector. In the short view (the “us against them” angle) you’re right. But in the long run (making the world a better place for everyone) it such things don’t benefit non-feminists. They don’t even benefit feminists despite whatever rush of self validation they get by being nasty to non feminists. Every time a feminist responds to intelligent discourse with hate, they expose themselves and brand their own movement as a hate movement. The problem is they have gotten to the point… Read more »
This is an extremely challenging subject for me. I’ve been misanthropic since I was a teen, using anger as a shield and bludgeon against overwhelming fear, and reading this post and the comments brings up feeling of unwillingness. I value and treasure my hatred, because I’m still afraid and mistrustful.
I can understand how you feel. For a long time when it came to dealing with feminists I used anger as a shield and sword against the fact that I just didn’t want to deal with them anymore after putting up with their own hate and anger anymore. A big part of my change of heart is the realization that ultimately the anger is counter productive. One thing that helped me realize this was that I was starting to infect good feminists like Julie and Joanna in the exact way that I had been infected. I saw how useless it… Read more »
“I’m mad as hell and I’m not going to take it any more” is what feminists want MRM’s to use as their tag line. I keep hearing that men are “mad” and I’m struggling with the use of the word. I and many men in MRM’s are not mad. Perhaps things have happen in their lives where they have anger but as a group, they are not “med” and I’ getting tired of that being shoved down our throats. And for the non-feminist feminists in the group, you’ve fallen for it hook line and sinker and are using their language.… Read more »
It is feminists who have undisputed authority over gender issues as they are presented in the mainstream. Feminists are the group with the power and as such, they dictate the way disputes and discussions take place. While it may not be intentional, the “poison” you speak of is and has been in their hands for a long time. As the group with the power, feminist have the power to change this. The MRM has no such power as there is no public backing of any kind worth mentioning. MRAs can be kind and gentle to the end of time and… Read more »
“Feminism has been way past that stage for decades. And in order to get people to give so much as a rats ass about men’s issues, you must get them mad about the injustices first.” I don’t really disagree much with what you’re saying in your comment…except for putting nice in quotes. Nice feminists so totally exist. And for the bit I quoted…yeah I agree with that too. I just think it’s unfortunately easy to go from getting mad about the issues, to getting mad at a perceived enemy – feminists. That’s what feminism did with men, and it hasn’t… Read more »
When putting “nice” into quotes I wasn’t being facetious. It was just a way of shortening “gender egalitarian non-misandric” into one word while expressing that it wasn’t literal since the word nice means very little – especially in this context. By the way, did you see my suggestion further up in response to you asking where to start? “I just think it’s unfortunately easy to go from getting mad about the issues, to getting mad at a perceived enemy – feminists. That’s what feminism did with men, and it hasn’t turned out so well. Yeah they’re getting heard, but they’re… Read more »
As I have told you, my awakening came this summer, when a baby-killer was let loose on the general population because she is attractive, young and middle-class. I realized, too, that THAT was the reason, however much I might want to deny that. I could change any of those factors, and the verdict would have been radically different. But her femaleness was crucial, and man would have been hung from the rafters, and I could see that very clearly. So now I am also on a road, and studying where I think the Second and Third Waves diverged, and how… Read more »
I don’t hate feminists, I oppose them. Feminists demanded I choose a side, so I did. It wasn’t their side. There is a difference, unless you want a catchy sound bite for the MSM.
And its good that you don’t Transhuman. Opposition in and of itself is not bad or harmful. But when it gets to the level where you won’t even give a feminist a fair chance solely because they are a feminist then its gone too far.
I don’t necessarily even oppose feminists. I oppose them on certain issues. I supported adopting the new FBI definition of rape even though it refused to count almost all incidents with a female perpetrator as rape because it was better than the old one.
Where I disagree with some feminists and where many of them will probably oppose me is expanding the definition of rape to include these female and male perpetrators who have forced another to penetrate them.
Until recently, I wasn’t even aware this wasn’t included in the definition of rape. I knew it wasn’t ever prosecuted, but I hadn’t been aware that it wasn’t even in the definition. Of COURSE forcing someone else to penetrate you is rape. It’s forced. Forced sex is rape. So, yeah…I’m a feminist and yet I oppose feminists on certain issues too. We live in a complicated world. I’d like to point out that the first time I ever even considered this issue was while watching an episode of Law and Order: SVU. Cuz yeah, Law and Order is awesome. (Totally… Read more »
“I’d like to point out that the first time I ever even considered this issue was while watching an episode of Law and Order: SVU. Cuz yeah, Law and Order is awesome. (Totally not relevant, but it is an awesome show).”
Maybe not to the discussion, but it does help us remember that when we discuss these topics, we are talking to other human beings.
I’d like to point out that the first time I ever even considered this issue was while watching an episode of Law and Order: SVU. Cuz yeah, Law and Order is awesome. (Totally not relevant, but it is an awesome show). As the creator of this post and post and one who is more an addict of SVU than actual fan let me say that I’ll allow it. Who knows maybe someone could write an article on the loop that involved media and culture influencing each other. Look at all the episodes of that show alone that are “ripped” from… Read more »
Yeah…though in this case it’s Law and Order being ahead of their time. A male stripper was forced to have sex with the women he was stripping for, and so the ADA prosecuted the women. In a realistic twist the rapist got off. I think it started because they were trying to say that he raped them or something? I can’t remember; it was years ago.
(Watch as my addiction kicks in.) The name of the episode was “Ridicule”. A male stripper had been raped by three women who were part of a group that hired him for a party. The story was that they called into a side room for a private dance. After getting to comfortable they tied him down and took turns raping him at knife point. The lawyer that defended the women actually tried to argue the point of “how can three small women possibly rape a man?” as if women are not capable of doing such things (and nevermind the knife… Read more »
Oo nice Danny. And yeah it’s a real shame that’s the only episode with a case like that…but I choose to view it positively. How many other cop shows of the bazzilion out there have depicted this? And I view Stabler’s comment in a positive way too….well not really….but whenever they have a controversial case someone (usually Stabler or IceT) bust out with the most unsympathetic response. It’s a way for a more empathetic character to express their ideas/opinions. Again, I view them walking in a positive light as well. It was a great moment to highlight the injustice of… Read more »
Sure its one of the few tv instances of this type of crime but I’m curious about this “positive view” you speak of. I worry that the fact that they walked is being played off as a reinforcement of the idea that “women don’t rape men”. Especially considering that when its male against female rape the vast majority of those cases end with the rapist being put away. Yet the one time its female against male we get acquittal? I’ve never been raped but if an example of my crime were to come up once out of over 200 episodes… Read more »
Well, maybe it’s cuz my dad’s a cop or something, but the Law & Order cases that have always struck me are the ones where the rapist (or murder, or whatever perp from the other shows) does get off. Because to me those episodes aren’t saying that the criminal didn’t commit a crime…they’re saying that our legal system isn’t flawless. When I watched that episode, and I saw those women walking free, I was outraged. I mean yeah it’s a tv show…but still I was outraged. The dialogue at the end of it too, where someone says to the ADA… Read more »
@Heather “But, yes, if I were a man who had been raped by a woman and I saw that episode, I would certainly have been pissed off that the women got off.” You’re right that when people go through things like that there are things that can trigger the memory. The genders don’t even necessarily need to be the same. It could be the same situation. I read about the De Anza case where she was too drunk to consent. I know that there was no prosecution and she lost her civil case so I guess that there was no… Read more »
There was another crime show that started with a man beating a woman. The camera focused on a iron by the bed. The police initially arrest the man charging him with rape over the objections of the woman. They would later discover in their investigation that she raped him. She had tied him up and was threatening him with the iron. If I remember correctly, the story ended with him losing his teaching job because of the initial rape charge and her plea bargaining to a lesser crime that allowed her to serve no jail time. There was some issue… Read more »
I think this is a great piece!! It is sometimes really easy to get mired down in the anger and hatred that arises from having to defend yourself all of the time. I like to consider myself an egalitarian, and a feminist who wishes to work with men, but sometimes I find myself having to fight the animosity of anti-feminism and becoming embittered in that discussion, losing site of the actual conversation. And I know this is something that I occasionally get caught up in instead of listening to the stories of those speaking to me. At a conference that… Read more »
Personally I don’t want to do anything with poison or its antidote.
Thanks for the reference to the thread I started for egalitarian feminists, Danny.
Just wish it didn’t bomb so hard, though.
Maybe I’ll just stick to telling stories instead.
Your welcome Eagle.
Eh maybe its proof that most feminists just aren’t as ready as the few that spoke up in that thread.
Danny, I wish to remind you that open mind and empty mind are two different things. Personally I do not hate anybody, but I have utter contempt for feminism. The problem begins when some feminists assume open mind to be empty mind and try to trash their weird conspiracy theories like the Patriarchy and Rape Culture in it. You cannot allow anybody to trash in your open mind.
Yes there is a difference between open mind and empty mind. Open mind is to give someone a fair chance whereas empty mind is to just allow allow anything. It is true that a lot of feminists try to pass off empty mind as open mind with things like patriarchy and rape culture and the gross misuse of privilege. As in if you don’t accept their views on these things without question they will accuse you of not being open minded which is frankly bull considering how terrible some parts and members of feminism are. However my hatred had gotten… Read more »
My reaction to this? I still think in terms of making change in the world and making the world a better place, it takes both activists and advocates, agitators and diplomats.
In that regard, my goals are less directly political than humanistic and focused on creating spaces to do that work.
Also, I actually believe Amanda Marcotte is an extremely valuable and talented human being both in her work with political issues, but in her own right. I’ve had the pleasure of meeting her several times, before she left Austin. That my name would come up next to hers, even in such a strange way (since the work we both do isn’t really the same kind of work), honors me. Amanda has worked her tail off doing what she does. She’s blogged, commentated and created a brand/business. I respect the hell out of the work she’s done and the fierceness with… Read more »
Oh no I’m not saying she has no talent or that she is lazy. (Just like Gimli and Legolas from Lord of the Rings. They may not like each other but they won’t deny each other’s skill.) What I am saying is that I think far too many people are far too forgiving of her hatred. For all the negativity she has spewed time and time again people defend her (and the hatred sometimes) with what amounts to “Oh but come on she’s a feminist.” In any regard, I suspect her mind is more open than you suspect, but perhaps… Read more »
Danny writes: “Yes there is a difference between open mind and empty mind. Open mind is to give someone a fair chance whereas empty mind is to just allow allow anything. It is true that a lot of feminists try to pass off empty mind as open mind with things like patriarchy and rape culture and the gross misuse of privilege. As in if you don’t accept their views on these things without question they will accuse you of not being open minded which is frankly bull considering how terrible some parts and members of feminism are.’ Exactly. I find… Read more »
Things are personal, you know? For MRAs too. We have a lot of personal stuff and a lot of cultural anxiety wrapped up in both those worlds. I’m not immune to it. The stuff with the BC and reproductive issues going on for women is making me extreeeeeemly nervous. And reactive. And increasingly even more progressive liberal lefty. There’s always personal stuff underneath. I read comments on either side of the aisle and most of what I see? If I could distill it is. SEE ME/HEAR ME AS HUMAN!!!!! And I AM SO ANGRY YOU DON”T SEE ME/HEAR ME AS… Read more »
Agree Julie
Things are also impersonal for MRAs.
That’s the difference, an emphasis on the objective and factual, with a bit of common sense and reasoning thrown in. I notice that this is overlooked to a massive degree, as if MRAs are strictly emotional, irrational and angry and nothing else , a most erroneous stereotype.
There is an overemphasis on the subjective and personal and not enough attention paid to facts and objective reasoning. Hmmm…I wonder why, maybe objective facts can be a bit confronting.
Feminist/MRA, Republicans/Democrats, Evangelicals/Atheists, Irish-Catholics/Protestants, Civil rights/KKK, Israel/Palestine it’s all the same pattern. Peace is hard work, involves letting go of ego, living with cognitive dissonance, and often restructuring old value patterns we grew up with. Much easier to sling insults in a self righteous way. Hate and anger can have an immediate emotional feedback look. It’s pleasurable in many ways to feel “right” to lob anger at people. Peace and compassion are often less immediate in their rewards, indeed one might not get much out of it except insults to them. Anger and hate lie to you though, and we… Read more »
So true!
Agreed. I used to have such problems with hate and anger for the very reason you, and Danny in his article, mention, that it felt good to finally express (self-righteous) vitriol against people.
Thank goodness certain people stepped into my life, and I found excellent blogs like this one and No Seriously What About Teh Menz? to help heal my damaged perspective on life and let go of grudges and hate.
A guy I knew in 8th grade used to hate on me because he was mad at his feminist, nit-picky mom (who was in turn mad at his violent father)….he used to make snide remarks at me (singing “You’re So Vain”) but at the same time he was trying to ask me to go steady…eventually, I said “no” because it seemed like he really hated me (he wasn’t too subtle! He was arrogant and insulting to other people, too!)….. He wrote a book about growing up and the effect of his parent’s domestic conflict and abuse on him….I realized he… Read more »
Exactly, Leia. Many like to point to men and say they’re just bad. But, nobody likes to look at who is molding the next generation of men. Single mother lead homes drive the numbers of creating the most dysfunctional men. 99% of men in gangs come from fatherless homes as do men on deathrow. Eminiem has a lot of songs that deal with his pain of being raised without a father and raised by a drug addicted mother. I think on average nation-wide the rate of births out of wedlock is 35%. And yet the sons (and to a lesser… Read more »
Dear John D., My classmate teaches memoir writing at a well known university and his wife is a well-known feminist and a contributing writer for a major newspaper….funny thing is that he was leering at my ass during the last HS reunion (he looked away when I caught him)…plus he was telling people that he was getting a divorce (maybe to get some play from the females there…I dunno)…I don’t think he had told his wife that they were “getting a divorce” (she writes so lovingly about him in the paper…she literally wrote that they would be married “forever”)…. He’s… Read more »
I just got a dear John letter. Oh no’s!
I suspect part of the problem might be that the people most likely to become involved in the gender debate are the ones who have been hurt by it most. This produces a horrible tendancy to “other” and demonise the opposite sex, while ostensibly campaigning for equality.
Nice to see some people fighting back 🙂
I’ll be honest, Joanna, Julie, Heather, Jasmine, and others (Sorry if I can’t remember all of your names atm) stopped me from hating feminists as I was running into way too many BAD feminists who made me question the equality bit in the typical feminism is for equality line. I now see there are many egalitarian feminists who I absolutely think are wonderful purely for existing, they stopped me hating feminism as a whole and now see it’s just like any other group…There are good and there are bad, can’t judge them all the same. Hell, there seems to be… Read more »
Archy,
I agree. I think the average rank-and-file feminist is most likely a good person who wants the best for all.
The problem is that the kinder equity-minded feminists let the toxic haters at the helm of the movement far too often, without any resistance.
This has resulted in some very destructive anti-father and anti-male laws being passed.
It disturbs me that the bad ones have taken such control and the seemingly lack of egalitarians to reign them back in. It’s the 21st century yet I still see calls for gendered laws on non-gendered issues, seems pretty damn stupid to me that we treat abuse etc as gendered in law or application of the law.
Thank you for that, Archy! I’d just about given up on the Good Men Project because I felt like there was a lot of vitriol levied against me on a number of occasions simply for being feminist, and I was just becoming exhausted and exasperated. I understand the suspicion, I really do, but it can get pretty tiresome trying to work with people who are always suspicious of your motives. And it’s not that I don’t understand where that can come from, but I think we have a common goal, and we need to really try to listen to one… Read more »
That’s what it amounts to Jasmine. The vitriol directed at me by feminists for simply being a man or by simply not choosing to identify as feminist got to a breaking point. A point where I decided that they weren’t the effort of even giving a fair chance to anymore. But after looking back on it it really wasn’t the vitriol itself that was so terrible is the was the fact that the vitriol was either disavowed or even outright defended at times. I wanted to try to work with them but they shouted in a loud and clear voice… Read more »
@jasmine
I’m glad you stayed. Your voice is important and lends a different perspective to these conversations. I admit that I distrust feminists when they equate men’s issues with women’s. Not so much when they discuss men’s issues in a standalone article, but I understand the need to draw parallels to our own experiences as a frame of reference. Even when I disagree with you I get the feeling that you’re a genuinely good person.
I was wondering. Did your funding get approved?
Thanks John! I’m glad I’ve stuck around, too. This conversation shows me that we can work together, work past any hate or mistrust that might be there, toward the common goal of equality.
My funding application was approved by the internal review, although I won’t know if I have passed external review until July! Agonizing is what these next few months will be as I wait to hear! 🙂 Thanks for inquiring.
Well I want you to stay, I can see you’re an egalitarian-feminist and working to better life for all. The feminist authors that bothered me the most were Amanda and Hugo. I’ve taken issue to some of what Soraya has said (basically just about stats but stats are a volatile topic) but she has been willing to listen and talk to people in the field about the issues raised by commentators, which I very much respected and I believe she too just wants the world to be better.
Thank-you for helping restore faith in feminism for many people!
And thank you for helping to restore my faith in GMP! 🙂 I really believe the best way to achieve equality for all persons is if people (males, females, and every other gender) work together. The goal of equality requires us to listen, understand, and help one another.
This was so lovely, and so totally true. I’ve had my own struggle against hating an entire group of people just because a few have been hateful toward me. I think most people probably have had to deal with this at some point. So thanks for writing about it. 🙂
Danny, I can’t tell you what this meant to me. Reminds me of why we do this work!
I hope we continue to build bridges. Thanks so much for the recognition 😉
J
“I hope we continue to build bridges”
Cue cheesy Simon and Garfunckle track 😉
No problem Joanna.
Well put. I guess my interactions with mean-spirited types calling themselves feminist hasn’t been as cumulatively voluminous that I carry any generalized hate. I generally give people the benefit of the doubt until they prove it’s a bad idea. I reverse the process for several groups, one of which is feminists. There’s such a thing as being so open-minded your brains fall out. Can’t recall whom to credit for that. That said, there are two issues. One is the question of which type has the influence in the real world where things are done that actually affect people. The other… Read more »
Well put. I guess my interactions with mean-spirited types calling themselves feminist hasn’t been as cumulatively voluminous that I carry any generalized hate. I generally give people the benefit of the doubt until they prove it’s a bad idea. I I think what happened (and I think I forgot to put this in the post) was that when it came to feminism I had heard the misrepresentating nonsense from the “media” and all that stuff and I went in thinking “no it can’t be that bad”. And despite coming across reasonable ones the ones that actually did live up to… Read more »
Richard, I get what you’re saying, but I don’t think you’re using the correct measuring tool. The issue isn’t what percentage of feminism are toxic manhaters. The issue is to what degree do the non-hating equal minded feminists let the radical core have the reins. The answer is plenty. Large entrenched, clout-wielding, politically-active feminist orgs typically use their pull in to get passed anti male laws. From the girl friendly changes in education in the 90’s, to denial of the boy crisis, banning of male DV victims at VAWA reathorization hearings, VAWA’s laws specifically stating grants can’t be administered to… Read more »
I forgot to mention the WEAVE group was successful. After a meeting with Obama, it was agreed that 42% of the stimulus was re-directed to medicine and education (female-heavy fields) even though nearly no jobs were lost there and they actually experienced moderate growth. NOW’s blatant statement that they are against helping men BECAUSE we are men even when there was clear need is a new ramping-up of their obvious bias. The idea of helping men is so repulsive to so many, that NOW no longer even has to bother to couch their rhetoric in female victimology. They can now… Read more »
Dude ….. I’m impressed!
Ah but, almost every group has the same problem. What types of Republicans are being elected at the moment? How about the people running various churches? Who’s lobbying for the NRA? Not the middle of the road people. Whenever you get a group of people together who have, vaguely, the same opinions/ideas, it’s the more radical who will be speaking loudest and the most. I mean we’ll take something as unimportant as World of Warcraft (yeah that’s right, I played it. Deal. 😉 ) You go onto the forums and all the complaints were from the fringes. It was either… Read more »
@Heather
“Ah but, almost every group has the same problem … it’s the more radical who will be speaking loudest and the most.”
That’s a good point. I’ll try to keep this in mind, but I still think that every movement has or should have core tenets. Not every Republican agrees with the platform, but most of them will support it. With every type of feminism accepted as feminism, it makes it difficult for us to understand what the tenets of feminism are.
My understanding of feminism? The basic tenets? From the wiki, “Feminism is a collection of movements aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women.[1][2] In addition, feminism seeks to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment.” The basic issues? Voting rights, education access rights, bodily autonomy in terms of reproductive rights. Later issues, exploring gender and gender roles, eliminating or reducing sexual violence. There are and have always been radical voices in feminism. There are everyday feminists and there are academics who focus purely on theoretical work, issues of semiotics, architecture, art.… Read more »
“defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women.[1][2] In addition, feminism seeks to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment.” “bodily autonomy in terms of reproductive rights.” Thanks, it won’t turn me into a feminist. It actually strengthens my belief that feminism is not an equality movement, but it does make their positions easier to understand. I now know why they oppose rape and FGC (at least types 1 to 3. I guess they include type 4 because they don’t oppose believing that female bodily autonomy is more important than male. Still not a… Read more »
I don’t think that’s true. I believe the originators were operating under the assumption that so far as sex went, men had autonomy and women didn’t, as women had no access to reproductive control. From the point of view of a woman in the 1900’s I can see men having more control of education, voting and land rights as well as determining parentage. As for type 4 “the nick” I think (could be wrong) that was introduced as a way to keep families in the country with the minimal pain (to satisfy religious requirements) or have them go out of… Read more »
Yeah I’d agree with you here, Julie.
I think what Julie was trying to point out with that definition is that at it’s basic form it is attempting to _focus_ on women’s issue…..but not ignore men’s issues or work against men. I’m not trying to turn you into a feminist or anything. I’m just trying to explain a bit. Feminism is an equality movement…but it seeks to obtain that equality by focusing on women’s issues. That hasn’t always worked out so well (lack of paternal rights, for starters), but that doesn’t mean it can’t move more toward the center and incorporate men’s issues too. We might have… Read more »
Yes, and I don’t have or feel any need to convert anyone.
You’re right about the nick as I understand it. I guess I already knew what feminism was. I was wondering more about what it is. I suppose it’s not even relevant , since it would most likely prejudice me one way or another when I hear the label.
I’ve considered dropping the label because it does cause such a strong reaction among so many people. But I’m a stubborn person…so mostly it just makes me want to make the label more inclusive.
Which is a real shame if you did. Compared to some of the other ones out there folks like you are not the ones that should be dropping the label. If you did all that would happen is that the loud mouth ones would simply continue on with them one sided version of history, their one sided “solutions”, and their hypocritical expectations/demands/standards.
Yeah, Danny…which is part of why I keep holding onto it. I’m not giving up that easy. I’m keeping it, and I’m redefining it. Grr. 🙂
A good place to start would be to start so much as a single rally for a single men’s rights issue. If feminists can successfully pull this off, then there would be something of substance that demonstrates that it’s not only about women. Until then it’s all just well meaning words at best and deceptive lies at worst.
It’s also noteworthy that there have been many rallies started and run mostly by men for the sole benefit of women. I don’t know of a single example where women let alone feminists rallied for men.
Feminists doing a rally for men? Mmmm, last night I put my wife’s partials under my pillow hoping I’d get a few bucks out of it. The tooth fairy screwed me over. I think it’s clear how I feel about feminism and how it’s impacted men but recently I’ve also considered how feminism screwed women over as well. Being a young man in the 60’s and 70’s, I’ve said for years that this is something that’s gonna screw over women as well. The feminist movement came on the heels of a country who was once an industrial nation. Manufacturing was… Read more »