Men are usually handed the responsibility of initiating dates or sexual encounters. Are we ready to move past these stereotypical roles?
Being rejected sucks.
Let me tell you about my first experience with it. Like me, the object of my desire was 13 years old, and he was the hottest thing ever—a geek who loved the natural sciences. He seemed like an awesome match for an Internet-obsessed nerd girl with weird pets. Sadly, he responded to my overture by saying that I could shove one of my pets up my ass. I can laugh about this now, but it sure sucked in my teens, and gave me a complex about asking guys out that lasted through my 20s. Like just about everyone in the world, I know about the pain of rejection.
But I know how the receiving end can get, too. I grew up into a woman who—like many women—routinely manages unwanted advances from men. Some of those advances are not made with good intent, like the guys who shout gross comments at me in the street. Yet at the same time as that kind of deliberately invasive behavior is going on, there are also people of all genders trying to initiate real, mutual romantic relationships—often misstepping even when their partner is receptive, and often experiencing very sad rejections.
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Men are usually handed the social responsibility of initiating dates or sexual encounters, while women usually get the social responsibility of appearing attractive and open enough to convince a man to say something. The awesome data-crunching blog for the dating site OKCupid notes that men send nearly four times as many introductory messages as women. Dr. Debby Herbenick, a research scientist at Indiana University and author of Because It Feels Good: A Woman’s Guide to Sexual Pleasure and Satisfaction, told me, “While for male-female interactions it appears that men do much of the initiating, it’s really a certain type of initiating—maybe saying hello first or asking the woman on a date.”

In other words, women often work hard to send approachable signals first, but it’s men who are expected to express overt interest. Herbenick adds, “I think it’s more often when people step out of their gender roles—such as when women don’t just settle for nonverbal initiation but walk up to a man and ask him out—is when things get tricky in many (but fortunately not all) instances.”
In my middle-school case, I don’t think that Natural Sciences Boy rejected me because I was the one to initiate; I think he wouldn’t have been interested no matter what, because that’s the fate of 13-year-old nerd girls. But now that I’ve grown up, I’ve generally found that it’s strange and difficult to be a woman who initiates. Don’t get me wrong—I like it when guys ask me out; I really don’t ever want to be in a position where I’m taking all the sexual initiative—but I often find that I start the conversation, offer my number or ask for his, suggest dinner, suggest that we go home together, etc. And I often find that guys don’t react well.
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Part of the problem may be that straightforward women are often seen as “sluts.” In the blunt words of Derek L., cofounder of a San Francisco–based company called Social Savant that claims to help men improve their romantic lives: “I’m not surprised that women don’t make the first move. They have so much to lose. There’s judgment from their girlfriends (‘Oh my God, she’s such a slut to hit on that guy’). And she risks judgment from the guy she approaches (‘Oh my God, she approached me, must be a slut, I’ll just fuck her and dump her’).”
This forms an interesting contrast to what men experience as initiators. I’ve already written about some of the romantic and sexual double binds men deal with as part of a previous AlterNet article. One of the points I made is that usually, when men initiate, they don’t have to fear being seen as “slutty”—but they do have to worry about being seen as “creepy.”
Some men, feeling frustrated with those anxieties, claim they would just love it if women would do all the initiating! And yet those same men will sometimes act as Derek described above—labeling women who initiate as sluts—or, alternatively, simply won’t know how to react to an initiating woman.
As Hugo Schwyzer, a senior professor of gender and women’s studies at Pasadena College in California, says: “Men often say that they have no problem with an aggressive woman, until they actually meet one—and find themselves confused. What might seem flattering and relieving in theory becomes discombobulating in practice, as some men (by no means all) flounder without … a clear-cut role. Many men claim that it is burdensome to have to risk rejection by always taking the initiative—but many discover that they feel equally burdened rather than liberated by having to let go of the culturally familiar role as dominant partner.”
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I’ve found that in some ways it’s useful that many guys don’t react well to me making the first move, because a guy who can’t handle hacking our society’s gendered scripts is probably not a great partner for me anyway. But even with less traditional guys, everything seems to go better if I cede the stereotypical initiation role—if I focus more on looking cute, batting my eyelashes, not seeming too interested, and smiling really widely.
It’s confusing, and I’d love to have more access to tried-and-true social strategies for how to navigate these tricky shoals. Surely there are ways for a woman to initiate that feel less threatening or confusing for men than others; I want to learn them. I’d also love it if more men in my life had access to good tactical advice on how to initiate with me. It’s not in my interest for guys who could be a great match to feel paralyzed approaching me because they’re not sure how to avoid coming off as a creep.
My relationships are a major topic of discussion with close friends, of course. That’s where a lot of my best ideas come from. It’d be nice to have access to more, though. Supposedly, there’s a whole dating advice industry that could help me with this. But as a feminist, I’m quite aware of the flaws in that industry. For women, there are awful stereotypical treatises such as The Rules, which tell us that the less genuine we are, the better. Men are served by “pickup artists” who often give misogynistic “seduction” advice. (It’s worth noting that there are pickup artists who recognize and critique the most unpleasant attitudes within their subculture, and who seek to co-opt its best analysis for real, non-adversarial gender liberation. As one such pickup artist writes: “There are a lot of problems with the seduction community that feminists correctly observe, including misogyny, cynicism towards relationships, and a few tactics that are bad for consent.” Unfortunately, none of these guys have yet written their own pickup guide.)
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When I Googled “feminist dating advice,” not much came up to help me. The fifth hit was probably my favorite, a one-line blog post that says very simply, “Oh, for Chrissakes—just pick up the phone and call him.” Well … OK, that’s funny, and it can be decent advice, sometimes, in some circumstances. Something funnier comes from the very first hit—an article from the popular site Jezebel.com:
Step 1: Don’t be an asshole.
Step 2: Do whatever you want, as long as it doesn’t violate Step 1.
I don’t disagree. At the same time: what now? Where do I go from there?
Many feminists say that it’s “not our job” to give positive romantic advice—especially to men. But the question of how heterosexual men act romantically is extremely relevant to heterosexual women.
There are plenty of honorable men who want to approach receptive partners but have trouble figuring out how to do so. When we feminists can have a positive impact on that, then we should offer to help. And after all, it’s not like we can’t include advice on how to respect boundaries alongside, perhaps, tactical advice on how to read a woman’s signals or how to approach her in a charming way.
Personally, I’m not sure I’d be the best source of advice for feminist women who want to date mainstream guys, because I don’t tend to date mainstream guys. (It’s also unclear how many mainstream guys would want to date me. Many are thrown off by my unshaven legs and discussions of privilege.) Still, notwithstanding the fact that every man is a beautiful and unique snowflake, I could isolate a number of frequently effective Clarisse Thorn Romance Tactics. Because I don’t know whether those tactics work well for me due to other characteristics of mine, or because I tend to be attracted to guys who respond well to them, maybe one place to start could be with an open space for discussing romantic strategies that strive to be both feminist and ethical—and also enjoy a high success rate.
One of the most important things feminists can do is give people of all genders more choices in how we live our lives, and how we interact with the gendered scripts that shape us. Surely, feminist romantic advice could be a powerful tool for this.
—This is an edited version. The original first appeared on AlterNet.
—Photo Maxime Guilbot/Flickr





















I just went through the SIRC guide to flirting. It’s a paper that summarizes all the latest research on flirting, courting and dating. It’s by Kate Fox, look it up.
It banishes two common female rationalizations and excuses… That of supposedly men not liking female approaches, and that of women failing with it.
It quotes the studies are conclusive that almost all men are extremely enthusiastic about women making the move.
It also finds that women have a 99% success rate in asking guys out!!! (provided there was even a hint of non-dislike from the guy).
Seriously, women have a 99% success rate and you’re writing these elaborate articles with rationalizations for keeping 11th century privileges? Give me a break. Nobody is buying it.
Given those figures I’d have to say that any woman who doesn’t take the initiative 100% of the time is just being a sexist pig, demanding men jump through hoops of fire to avoid a tiny tiny imposition on her.
Having said that I find the 99% success rate impossible to believe.
But still it’s clearly a job that women are going to be able to do far more easily than men. We men get stuck lifting heavy things because women say oh well you’re so strong so you better get it. How come when the shoe is on the other foot the women are nowhere to be seen?
And of course feminists jump through their own mental hoops writing articles to excuse the obvious female privilege here and pretend it doesn’t exist.
Notice it said if there were signs of interest from the guy. So the 99% rate only applies if the woman assess if the man is interested or not at first. In terms of approaching and asking out completely random men, I think the rate was still pretty high, something like 80% – it was in that famous study where had students ask other students to go to bed with them.
In that same study they had women approaching random men and asking them out and the percentage was astronomical. The study that says 99% is in terms of women asking a guy out after assessing his interest first – in which case they have a 99% success rate.
(1) Making the first move is hard, unpleasant, soul destroying work.
(2) women have all the power
therefore,
(3) they make men do it
Now imagine you didn’t have the power to force the other person to do that work. Imagine you were the one forced to do it. Not very nice prospect eh? So why can’t women and feminist recognise this obvious privilge women have?
Bottom line is if you felt it was worse to be on the receiving end you could opt to initiate. You don’t because you know lucky you have it. If a special situation arises where you think initiating will be advantageous to you then you have the option to do so. Men don’t.
They may send deliberately ambiguous signals to avoid the pain of rejection. That doesn’t help and it is NOT doing the hard work that men are forced to do.
Rubbish. Women get rejected if they initiate because everyone does. That’s why cold calling sucks so much. You are going to get rejected a lot. Women would actually get rejected less I bet, but still they’ll get rejected a lot.
Better for YOU? of course.
I’ve nearly always initiated. (cue the “but you are a beta” comments)
I have no issue with asking a person out. I think its ridiculous that we’ve got that particular gender division going at all. You want something? Ask.
Well then you’re just awesome!
I try to be (and I’m a feminist too, shhhhh don’t tell anyone)
If you really believe in equality and are willing to take the same dangers you’d expect a man take-I can respect that very much. What I can’t respect is this new chivalry where women get all the benefits and men still have all the risks that Hugo S, AM and this author seem to perpetuate…..
Great post! Not sure that I understand the history or the sociology, but I have NEVER seen the “reward” of having to approach women first. I hear women say that they MUST know that I am interested before
they do anything. That does not seem fair.
I know a number of 1 is statistically meaningless, but I’m really glad when I’m asked out.
It’s just flattering.
Of course my reaction depends, but in the worst case I’d appreciate her attempt and treat her in the best possible way; I would feel her pain and try to soothe it.
Even if I don’t like her at first, I would be available to know her better, if she’s inclined so (you can’t really know someone just on the spot). Everyone deserves a chance.
Regarding the roles, I’m all for equality: so why on Earth someone should go and someone else should wait? It doesn’t make any sense.
Jeez, it’s the Third Millennium already, please drop those Middle Age remnants!
I agree with @DavidByron this is kind of a female privilege (like in a war, men go first to be butchered
); and everyone not acknowledging that, is quite hypocritical – especially if it’s a feminist (the kind of “feminist” who wants equality when it’s good, and old ways when there’s a benefit).
PS: Clarisse, when a lady has brains like yours, unshaven legs are highly irrelevant.
“Don’t get me wrong—I like it when guys ask me out; I really don’t ever want to be in a position where I’m taking all the sexual initiative—but I often find that I start the conversation, offer my number or ask for his, suggest dinner, suggest that we go home together, etc. And I often find that guys don’t react well.”
Maybe you are just aiming out of your league or maybe you are really a “Nice Girl TM” or all the other boggoted things Feminists LOVE to scream at men with poor social skills….
hehe, bigoted, not boggoted….
Why hasn’t she mentioned something like-”Well in nature, male birds initiate”
Well, then that might suggest biological differences between men and women and then you’d get that whole eve psych scene that some like AM love to dismiss as misogynistic because it doesn’t fit their dogma which is not scientifically tested…….
This is pretty flimsy….
why don’t you just come out and admit that you don’t like the sting of rejection instead of putting statements by Hugo S there. He doesn’t speak for all men-we ARE NOT one monolithic group, in fact I find him incredibly misandrist.