Men are usually handed the responsibility of initiating dates or sexual encounters. Are we ready to move past these stereotypical roles?
Being rejected sucks.
Let me tell you about my first experience with it. Like me, the object of my desire was 13 years old, and he was the hottest thing ever—a geek who loved the natural sciences. He seemed like an awesome match for an Internet-obsessed nerd girl with weird pets. Sadly, he responded to my overture by saying that I could shove one of my pets up my ass. I can laugh about this now, but it sure sucked in my teens, and gave me a complex about asking guys out that lasted through my 20s. Like just about everyone in the world, I know about the pain of rejection.
But I know how the receiving end can get, too. I grew up into a woman who—like many women—routinely manages unwanted advances from men. Some of those advances are not made with good intent, like the guys who shout gross comments at me in the street. Yet at the same time as that kind of deliberately invasive behavior is going on, there are also people of all genders trying to initiate real, mutual romantic relationships—often misstepping even when their partner is receptive, and often experiencing very sad rejections.
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Men are usually handed the social responsibility of initiating dates or sexual encounters, while women usually get the social responsibility of appearing attractive and open enough to convince a man to say something. The awesome data-crunching blog for the dating site OKCupid notes that men send nearly four times as many introductory messages as women. Dr. Debby Herbenick, a research scientist at Indiana University and author of Because It Feels Good: A Woman’s Guide to Sexual Pleasure and Satisfaction, told me, “While for male-female interactions it appears that men do much of the initiating, it’s really a certain type of initiating—maybe saying hello first or asking the woman on a date.”
In other words, women often work hard to send approachable signals first, but it’s men who are expected to express overt interest. Herbenick adds, “I think it’s more often when people step out of their gender roles—such as when women don’t just settle for nonverbal initiation but walk up to a man and ask him out—is when things get tricky in many (but fortunately not all) instances.”
In my middle-school case, I don’t think that Natural Sciences Boy rejected me because I was the one to initiate; I think he wouldn’t have been interested no matter what, because that’s the fate of 13-year-old nerd girls. But now that I’ve grown up, I’ve generally found that it’s strange and difficult to be a woman who initiates. Don’t get me wrong—I like it when guys ask me out; I really don’t ever want to be in a position where I’m taking all the sexual initiative—but I often find that I start the conversation, offer my number or ask for his, suggest dinner, suggest that we go home together, etc. And I often find that guys don’t react well.
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Part of the problem may be that straightforward women are often seen as “sluts.” In the blunt words of Derek L., cofounder of a San Francisco–based company called Social Savant that claims to help men improve their romantic lives: “I’m not surprised that women don’t make the first move. They have so much to lose. There’s judgment from their girlfriends (‘Oh my God, she’s such a slut to hit on that guy’). And she risks judgment from the guy she approaches (‘Oh my God, she approached me, must be a slut, I’ll just fuck her and dump her’).”
This forms an interesting contrast to what men experience as initiators. I’ve already written about some of the romantic and sexual double binds men deal with as part of a previous AlterNet article. One of the points I made is that usually, when men initiate, they don’t have to fear being seen as “slutty”—but they do have to worry about being seen as “creepy.”
Some men, feeling frustrated with those anxieties, claim they would just love it if women would do all the initiating! And yet those same men will sometimes act as Derek described above—labeling women who initiate as sluts—or, alternatively, simply won’t know how to react to an initiating woman.
As Hugo Schwyzer, a senior professor of gender and women’s studies at Pasadena College in California, says: “Men often say that they have no problem with an aggressive woman, until they actually meet one—and find themselves confused. What might seem flattering and relieving in theory becomes discombobulating in practice, as some men (by no means all) flounder without … a clear-cut role. Many men claim that it is burdensome to have to risk rejection by always taking the initiative—but many discover that they feel equally burdened rather than liberated by having to let go of the culturally familiar role as dominant partner.”
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I’ve found that in some ways it’s useful that many guys don’t react well to me making the first move, because a guy who can’t handle hacking our society’s gendered scripts is probably not a great partner for me anyway. But even with less traditional guys, everything seems to go better if I cede the stereotypical initiation role—if I focus more on looking cute, batting my eyelashes, not seeming too interested, and smiling really widely.
It’s confusing, and I’d love to have more access to tried-and-true social strategies for how to navigate these tricky shoals. Surely there are ways for a woman to initiate that feel less threatening or confusing for men than others; I want to learn them. I’d also love it if more men in my life had access to good tactical advice on how to initiate with me. It’s not in my interest for guys who could be a great match to feel paralyzed approaching me because they’re not sure how to avoid coming off as a creep.
My relationships are a major topic of discussion with close friends, of course. That’s where a lot of my best ideas come from. It’d be nice to have access to more, though. Supposedly, there’s a whole dating advice industry that could help me with this. But as a feminist, I’m quite aware of the flaws in that industry. For women, there are awful stereotypical treatises such as The Rules, which tell us that the less genuine we are, the better. Men are served by “pickup artists” who often give misogynistic “seduction” advice. (It’s worth noting that there are pickup artists who recognize and critique the most unpleasant attitudes within their subculture, and who seek to co-opt its best analysis for real, non-adversarial gender liberation. As one such pickup artist writes: “There are a lot of problems with the seduction community that feminists correctly observe, including misogyny, cynicism towards relationships, and a few tactics that are bad for consent.” Unfortunately, none of these guys have yet written their own pickup guide.)
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When I Googled “feminist dating advice,” not much came up to help me. The fifth hit was probably my favorite, a one-line blog post that says very simply, “Oh, for Chrissakes—just pick up the phone and call him.” Well … OK, that’s funny, and it can be decent advice, sometimes, in some circumstances. Something funnier comes from the very first hit—an article from the popular site Jezebel.com:
Step 1: Don’t be an asshole.
Step 2: Do whatever you want, as long as it doesn’t violate Step 1.
I don’t disagree. At the same time: what now? Where do I go from there?
Many feminists say that it’s “not our job” to give positive romantic advice—especially to men. But the question of how heterosexual men act romantically is extremely relevant to heterosexual women.
There are plenty of honorable men who want to approach receptive partners but have trouble figuring out how to do so. When we feminists can have a positive impact on that, then we should offer to help. And after all, it’s not like we can’t include advice on how to respect boundaries alongside, perhaps, tactical advice on how to read a woman’s signals or how to approach her in a charming way.
Personally, I’m not sure I’d be the best source of advice for feminist women who want to date mainstream guys, because I don’t tend to date mainstream guys. (It’s also unclear how many mainstream guys would want to date me. Many are thrown off by my unshaven legs and discussions of privilege.) Still, notwithstanding the fact that every man is a beautiful and unique snowflake, I could isolate a number of frequently effective Clarisse Thorn Romance Tactics. Because I don’t know whether those tactics work well for me due to other characteristics of mine, or because I tend to be attracted to guys who respond well to them, maybe one place to start could be with an open space for discussing romantic strategies that strive to be both feminist and ethical—and also enjoy a high success rate.
One of the most important things feminists can do is give people of all genders more choices in how we live our lives, and how we interact with the gendered scripts that shape us. Surely, feminist romantic advice could be a powerful tool for this.
—This is an edited version. The original first appeared on AlterNet.
—Photo Maxime Guilbot/Flickr
About Clarisse Thorn
I just went through the SIRC guide to flirting. It’s a paper that summarizes all the latest research on flirting, courting and dating. It’s by Kate Fox, look it up.
It banishes two common female rationalizations and excuses… That of supposedly men not liking female approaches, and that of women failing with it.
It quotes the studies are conclusive that almost all men are extremely enthusiastic about women making the move.
It also finds that women have a 99% success rate in asking guys out!!! (provided there was even a hint of non-dislike from the guy).
Seriously, women have a 99% success rate and you’re writing these elaborate articles with rationalizations for keeping 11th century privileges? Give me a break. Nobody is buying it.
Given those figures I’d have to say that any woman who doesn’t take the initiative 100% of the time is just being a sexist pig, demanding men jump through hoops of fire to avoid a tiny tiny imposition on her.
Having said that I find the 99% success rate impossible to believe.
But still it’s clearly a job that women are going to be able to do far more easily than men. We men get stuck lifting heavy things because women say oh well you’re so strong so you better get it. How come when the shoe is on the other foot the women are nowhere to be seen?
And of course feminists jump through their own mental hoops writing articles to excuse the obvious female privilege here and pretend it doesn’t exist.
Notice it said if there were signs of interest from the guy. So the 99% rate only applies if the woman assess if the man is interested or not at first. In terms of approaching and asking out completely random men, I think the rate was still pretty high, something like 80% – it was in that famous study where had students ask other students to go to bed with them.
In that same study they had women approaching random men and asking them out and the percentage was astronomical. The study that says 99% is in terms of women asking a guy out after assessing his interest first – in which case they have a 99% success rate.
(1) Making the first move is hard, unpleasant, soul destroying work.
(2) women have all the power
therefore,
(3) they make men do it
Now imagine you didn’t have the power to force the other person to do that work. Imagine you were the one forced to do it. Not very nice prospect eh? So why can’t women and feminist recognise this obvious privilge women have?
Bottom line is if you felt it was worse to be on the receiving end you could opt to initiate. You don’t because you know lucky you have it. If a special situation arises where you think initiating will be advantageous to you then you have the option to do so. Men don’t.
They may send deliberately ambiguous signals to avoid the pain of rejection. That doesn’t help and it is NOT doing the hard work that men are forced to do.
Rubbish. Women get rejected if they initiate because everyone does. That’s why cold calling sucks so much. You are going to get rejected a lot. Women would actually get rejected less I bet, but still they’ll get rejected a lot.
Better for YOU? of course.
I’ve nearly always initiated. (cue the “but you are a beta” comments)
I have no issue with asking a person out. I think its ridiculous that we’ve got that particular gender division going at all. You want something? Ask.
Well then you’re just awesome!
I try to be (and I’m a feminist too, shhhhh don’t tell anyone)
If you really believe in equality and are willing to take the same dangers you’d expect a man take-I can respect that very much. What I can’t respect is this new chivalry where women get all the benefits and men still have all the risks that Hugo S, AM and this author seem to perpetuate…..
Great post! Not sure that I understand the history or the sociology, but I have NEVER seen the “reward” of having to approach women first. I hear women say that they MUST know that I am interested before
they do anything. That does not seem fair.
I know a number of 1 is statistically meaningless, but I’m really glad when I’m asked out.
It’s just flattering.
Of course my reaction depends, but in the worst case I’d appreciate her attempt and treat her in the best possible way; I would feel her pain and try to soothe it.
Even if I don’t like her at first, I would be available to know her better, if she’s inclined so (you can’t really know someone just on the spot). Everyone deserves a chance.
Regarding the roles, I’m all for equality: so why on Earth someone should go and someone else should wait? It doesn’t make any sense.
Jeez, it’s the Third Millennium already, please drop those Middle Age remnants!
I agree with @DavidByron this is kind of a female privilege (like in a war, men go first to be butchered
); and everyone not acknowledging that, is quite hypocritical – especially if it’s a feminist (the kind of “feminist” who wants equality when it’s good, and old ways when there’s a benefit).
PS: Clarisse, when a lady has brains like yours, unshaven legs are highly irrelevant.
“Don’t get me wrong—I like it when guys ask me out; I really don’t ever want to be in a position where I’m taking all the sexual initiative—but I often find that I start the conversation, offer my number or ask for his, suggest dinner, suggest that we go home together, etc. And I often find that guys don’t react well.”
Maybe you are just aiming out of your league or maybe you are really a “Nice Girl TM” or all the other boggoted things Feminists LOVE to scream at men with poor social skills….
hehe, bigoted, not boggoted….
Why hasn’t she mentioned something like-”Well in nature, male birds initiate”
Well, then that might suggest biological differences between men and women and then you’d get that whole eve psych scene that some like AM love to dismiss as misogynistic because it doesn’t fit their dogma which is not scientifically tested…….
This is pretty flimsy….
why don’t you just come out and admit that you don’t like the sting of rejection instead of putting statements by Hugo S there. He doesn’t speak for all men-we ARE NOT one monolithic group, in fact I find him incredibly misandrist.
Clarisse: A small correction for your article.
Hugo is not a senior professor
http://www.pasadena.edu/directory/employee-results.cfm?Name=777543590241347E226758000C5A4224043770164D5708780700402D7647400F
Right from the faculty website. He is an instructor , there is a big difference.
I can only assume you quoted him as “A senior professor” to EXPAND the importance of this quote but please give us more credit than that.
I think many guys have a fantasy of being hit on or asked out by attractive women. Unfortunately , those are the women with the least need to take initiative because they are already swamped by attention. They can simply wait and then pick and coose.
Women who get less attention from men — older women, less attractive women, overweight women, etc. — might be the ones who theoretically need to ask men out more often (because they aren’t being asked out) but those aren’t the women that men are thinking about when they complain that women don’t initiate. I have a feeling that if women hit on men as much as men hit on women, men would quickly start to feel pestered and even offended. Because no one likes to be pursued by people who you aren’t attracted to.
“Women who get less attention from men — older women, less attractive women, overweight women, etc. — might be the ones who theoretically need to ask men out more often (because they aren’t being asked out) but those aren’t the women that men are thinking about when they complain that women don’t initiate.”
This, right here, is a big reason why so many women don’t make the first move, I think. You don’t want to be seen as desperate…if a woman is making the first move, then she’s probably worried the guy will think she’s less able to find someone…precisely because she’s making the first move.
@HeatherN: “if a woman is making the first move, then she’s probably worried…”
It depends on the culture of the place, on the context.
- If the culture is relaxed, everybody feels free to make the first move… because it doesn’t mean anything special (everybody can and does it).
- If the culture is rigid, with rigid roles (men do it, women don’t), then a woman making the first move is “out of the ordinary”, so she can be afraid of appearing desperate (“WHY she’s doing what other women don’t???”).
So, it’s not about what you do, but on the cultural meaning of what you do.
And, thinking in black&white terms (like you did here) doesn’t help to transform the culture.
@Sarah: “those aren’t the women that men are thinking about when they complain that women don’t initiate”
Sarah, you’re thinking in black&white terms here: while it’s easier for the mind, it doesn’t help in grasping actual reality.
). It’s a continuum.
We men don’t see women just in two categories: beautiful OR ugly (ok, some morons do, but I don’t mind the bollocks
Thus, while I agree a goddess-like woman doesn’t need to take initiative, an average woman could make the first move with a man she likes: this would be a much more common situation than your black OR white statement.
).
Now, what the man’s reaction would be? Of course, it depends on the specific man and the woman (because we aren’t talking about nuts and bolts, that either click or not
But, we can assume he might like her, and be please by her initiative.
Just think about the “cougars”: older women hitting on younger men…. and yet, many of those men are happy about it.
So, you see, reducing reality in simpler black&white terms is actually a distortion of reality, and it’s more confusing than helping.
Reality is complex, and you can understand it only by embracing its complexity.
@Sarah: “I have a feeling that if women hit on men as much as men hit on women, men would quickly start to feel pestered and even offended. Because no one likes to be pursued by people who you aren’t attracted to.”
Again, you make the same mistake here.
).
If women would actually hit on men often, that would be women of many shapes and sizes, thus many men would be happy about it.
Maybe the handsomest would be hit upon too much, and they would feel pestered (just like gorgeous women do!
But the average man would appreciate it, because the average man doesn’t get much attention, usually.
And since the average (men and women) are the most common, it seem to me that, in your B&W thinking, you’re forgetting most of the populace. 8)
*pick and choose! ha ha “coose” — that sounds obscene. Freudian slip?
I often find that women don’t react well to being approached, especially if they don’t find the guy attractive. How much of an overlap is there between girls who are desperate enough to approach men? And how much of the negative reaction is due to women being more likely to ask out the very kind of guys whom they would like to be asked out by – the dominant males who react badly to anyone who might try to take charge of anything from under their nose? And what if it’s just a numbers game that’s not being played correctly – many men get rejected by 50 or more women before finding one… yet women might be giving up after 3 or 4 attempts because the rejection was too much to bear. Lastly, what about just the fact that women just might not know how to approach, period? The vast majority of approaches in the history of mankind seem to have offended one woman or another, at least judging by the constant flood of complaints. Why should anyone think that women would be any better at it?
Truly intriguing are women who always complain about not meeting the right guys , but who steadfastly refuse to ever approach a guy because ‘he should be the one to find her.’
I respect their fortitude but it is going to have them old and alone.
I actually have know several women like this for about 10-15 years and they still have the same complaints and issues.
@Mack10.: “I respect their fortitude”
I would call it “cowardice” instead.
Hiding behind traditional gender roles, it’s an easy way out to avoid the risk of rejection.
Those chicks are chicken.
“whether you are driving a car, a truck, or a boat, you have to be sitting on the side with the pedals and the wheel” ~ my dad
You are absolutely right that it is necessary to be active in one’s pursuit of relationship happiness. The importance of proactive involvement in one’s lifetime of success and achievements can not be emphasized enough.
Wow, what a way to generalize. Wow, so not true. Wow, you are unbelievable in your statements!
Seems like you want women to do everything by your little “woman” book. Now if you are wanting women to change their gender practices to accomodate you, you have got to be willing to change some of your male gender rules .
( refusing to approach a guy will leave a woman old and alone)—>> harsh, evil, mean
Which women do you speak of? For certainly, not any of my people, because, all of my wonderful, smart, good looking, female relatives and friends did not make the first move, and all are in satisfying, happy relationships!!
Imagine a fictional situation where we’ve got two guys, Mike and Dave, who are looking for a job, with equally good resumes, interview skills, and work experience. In other words, if they each applied to the same number of jobs, they’d be equally likely to get hired. The only difference is that they’re subject to different rules. Mike is allowed to submit his resume as much as he likes wherever he likes. Dave, on the other hand, is required to sit around and hope than an employer approaches him. Although Dave has a degree in electrical engineering, he keeps getting approached by that greasy-haired manager from the local McDonalds, and nobody else. If he approaches a place where he wants to work, the potential employers reject him as being either too ‘pushy’ or too ‘desperate’ or too ‘easy’ and therefore not valuable. Who do you think is more likely to get a job they want; Mike or Dave?
A woman’s situation in dating is like Dave’s situation in that analogy. Traditional society expects us to wait to be chosen, instead of choosing who we want. Don’t call it a privileged position. Believe me, it’s not! It’s a frustrating lack of freedom. Seriously, would you want to be in Dave’s situation? So guys, if you want a culture where women will feel comfortable making the first move, encourage every woman you know! Reassure them that there’s nothing slutty or desperate about a woman making the first approach, because every TV show we’ve ever seen and a lot of the dating advice people have given has told us the reverse.
@Jen, while I agree that traditional roles suck big time (and I’m all against them), your analogy doesn’t hold water at all.
The man-woman relationship exists on a peer basis (or it should be); an employer-employee relationship is top-bottom (or even master-servant if you will). Comparing them is like comparing a hammer and a feather.
And, of course Mike has more chances, but what’s holding Dave from approaching employers? Rejection from moronic ones?
My point is this: if you see a interesting and smart guy (and you think you’re potentially interesting to him), he will be delighted to get your attention. Hey, anybody likes being flattered!
The instances of rejection would only be:
1) He’s traditional and think that women approaching men are either desperate, scary or slutty.
—> But this means he’s NOT smart, so are you still interested in him? Isn’t this a “natural selection”?
2) He doesn’t find you interesting and/or attractive.
—> Bummer. But your NOT approaching him wouldn’t have changed this fact; and your approaching him lets you know this, so you won’t waste your time waiting.
@Jen: “So guys, if you want a culture where women will feel comfortable making the first move, encourage every woman you know!”
Sure I do!
But, on your (female) part, you need to have gut, take initiative and risk rejection.
If women really want equality, there no space for these roles (hunter and prey) anymore.
Risking judgment is not really different from risking rejection: men suffer from rejection and judgment all the time, when they approach women. Yet they still do (because sometimes the woman is worth it
).
Thus, “playing the game” and approaching men, for women, is just practicing the equality so many of you talk about.
Welcome to this scary and uncomfortable arena; it was about time. 8)
99 out of a 100 men I know to encourage women to make moves. Any conversation on this subject will have the men talking about how much they would love or like for women to make moves, and the women defending the status quo.
Even in feminist spaces with hardcore (let’s abolish all gender roles) mantras, the majority of the women defend the status quo. So this ridiculous notion that women are lazy because men don’t’ encourage them is fallacious to the core.
We have an entire society of men BEGGING for women to start doing stuff…
Encourage every woman I know to feel more comfortable in approacheing men? One problem.
Because of the “rules” of our game and the rejections, i do not know ANY. Nice try though!
the author is a total slut. hot chicks will never awkwardly initiate conversation with a nerd, get over it. they dont have to. and for the record, “the first move” is eye contact, and they usually do make it. Anyways, women could totally have any guy they want. it’s sadly hilarious they dont try more often, but c’est la vie. the whole gender “scripts” explains a lot of mens hostility towards women. they make beasts of us.