Why Don’t Women Like Nice Guys?

A self-proclaimed “nice guy” wonders why women seem to get bored of drama-free love and start looking for trouble.

Originally appeared at She Said He Said

Dear Sexes: Why do women not know how to handle a nice guy, or a guy who always shows a lot of love, and doesn’t disrespect them?  In the beginning, they like all that, but then they start disrespecting you and they take advantage of such niceness. Nice guys ended up feeling frustrated because they don’t receive the same love that they give. Is it really true that what women like is drama, and bad guys who disrespect them, don’t call, and don’t show much love, or who they are?

She Said: Whoa, slow your roll there, partner. First, not all women dismiss nice guys. Here’s the crazy thing: I think “nice guys” are often attracted to drama-junkies.

We all go through times in our lives when we live for the drama. And there’s something so appealing about the fighting-fucking-fighting-mellow for three minutes-fighting-fucking cycle. But for too many of us (men and women alike) we fall into a trap of craving intensity as a replacement for true intimacy.

That cycle is really damaging, and it’s really tricky. The fighting and making up feels so intimate, but it’s not true intimacy if it’s so unstable and you’re always unsure of whether there’s going to be a big blow-up or not.

If you keep ending up with woman after woman who seems to crave drama, then it’s time to look at yourself. Sit down and make a list of  the top 5 features that have attracted you to the top 5 women in your life. This is your 5 of 5. Feel free to repeat the same words over again in describing them. What you’re looking for are trends.

To look for the warning signs, figure out how each initially-attractive trait eventually turns bad. For instance, I think sometimes “nice guys” (and “caretaker women”) really love helping a woman and sort of crave that sense of being needed. Therefore, they tend to (subconsciously) drift toward women who need more help – as in, women who have a lot of drama (real or created).

And why do we love being with people who need more help? Then we feel indispensable. We feel important. We feel secure. But is it real security? No.

Take a look over that list of 25 traits and see what you can avoid in the future, as well as what you can heal in yourself.

He Said: Okay, are we talking about ALL nice guys, or one particular nice guy? Never mind, that doesn’t matter. Here’s the deal: women do like nice guys, but they also like a little mystery and excitement.  So it’s better to be an adventurous nice guy, rather than a boring one. And regardless of how good a communicator you are, don’t share all your life stories in the very beginning. Be a good listener (though don’t be anyone’s therapist), and leave something to the imagination, when it comes her getting to know you.  As a guy, it’s more important to have the ability and desire to communicate, rather than actually communicating everything all the time.

Occasionally women get confused with the whole bad boy thing.  Some of them think that mystery, excitement, passion, and adventure can only come from a jerk.  In reality, sometimes a jerk is just a jerk, and a boring jerk at that! But don’t worry about those neanderthals.  You, just be your evolved, sharing, giving, communicative self.  Eventually you’ll find an amazing woman, with enough intelligence and healthy self-esteem to realize she wants a rewarding relationship – with a good guy. Just remember my pointers and you’ll do fine!

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About She Said He Said

Eli and Josie, friends since college, realized how lucky they were to have one another—an honest friend of the opposite sex who tells it like it is. They wanted to share that with the world and so www.shesaidhesaid.me was born.

Comments

  1. Groucho Marx said there’s one way to find out if a man is honest – ask him. If he says yes, you know he’s a crook.

    Kinda think the same thing applies to so called nice guys. Especially capitalized Nice Guys (TM) I’ve read a fair few of their blogs and groups, and have to say I struggle to see much evidence for the claim.

    No offence to the authors here, it’s an interesting discussion and they’ve jumped aboard other people’s terminology, but the idea that there is a straight binary between nice guys and bad boys is a joke, the idea that wild, dangerous guys get laid all the time is a fantasy, the idea that guys who treat women with respect and kindness are destined for the shelf is a lie, and the claim that women are a unitary species who all have the same desires, attractions, preferences and behaviours is a heap of sexist shite.

    In short, the whole debate is predicated on fiction upon fiction upon fiction upon fiction You might as well debate whether Santa Claus would beat the Tooth Fairy in a fight.

    One thing that probably is true, however, is that very few women are attracted to whiny, self-pitying milksops with a streak of entitlement as wide as the highway and a dollop of misogyny coursing through their veins. I suspect that’s at the root of this phenomenon.

    • Well put.

    • Kirsten (in MT) says:

      Well said.

    • Ally F,

      Two of my friends have fallen into the “nice guy” rut, and I can assure you it has absolutely nothing to do with being ” whiny, self-pitying milksops with a streak of entitlement.”

      Indeed, as friends of theirs, I find your insinuation quite insulting, and I’d ask you to try and be more empathetic towards others, especially as your “experience” comes from “blogs and groups” rather than actual first-hand contact.

      The “Nice Guy” usually comes about because our society has provided men and women with the tools to erect boundaries dealing with physical intimacy, but provides no similar tools for dealing with emotional intimacy.

      We can see this because we not only accept, we expect, that our sexual partners will have labeled certain behaviors “will not try, ever, totally uninterested.”

      However, our society does not allow men to define similar boundaries towards those that they are emotionally intimate with. Women are expected to be emotional, and to discharge their “emotional baggage” onto their intimate partners. Men, meanwhile, are expected to accept said baggage, all the while remaining “strong and silent” despite having a desperate need to discharge their own emotional build up.

      Where Nice Guys fall down has nothing to do with discharging their own emotions, and everything to do with being unable to set emotional boundaries simply because society has not shown them how. The average Nice Guy has actually been drowned in emotional baggage by at least one woman he had an end goal of being intimate with, only to have her break it off. Because she expects her emotional partners to behave this way, she doesn’t see him as doing anything “special” for her, and she just moves on.

      Meanwhile, he’s been crushed by her emotions and is left totally confused. Couldn’t she see what he was doing for her? Couldn’t she see that he took on more and more of her emotional discharge without ever wavering or complaining? How could she leave him after dumping so much on him for so long?

      After such an experience, being a total jerk looks great by comparison. Get all the sex, which you want, and none of the emotional intimacy, which you cannot handle because you cannot set boundaries.

      What Nice Guys need to do is learn how to set boundaries and be honest about them. They need to say “I cannot take this anymore, you need to stop sharing for a little while.” This has nothing to do with their own emotions, and certainly nothing to do with “entitlement.”

      • Women share emotionally all the time with friends, doing so with a man only means that she feels he’s friendly and supportive, just like her other friends. It’s good for guys to keep that in mind. When she says “I see you as a friend,” the guy feels betrayed, but she’s just being honest.

        • Sarah,

          I definitely respect that, and that’s why I advocate for men to set up emotional boundaries. If they are only interested in a romantic relationship, they need to be up front about it. It is their failure to do so that results in feelings of betrayal. They do not set the boundary of “only be emotionally intimate with me if you are romantically interested,” and they need to.

          However, I would also say that the whole “it’s good for guys to keep that in mind” is a non-starter with me. Just as men need to be aware of the unstated boundaries that women set up for themselves (i.e. don’t try and hit on me at the gym), women need to be aware of the unstated boundaries that men may be operating under, especially when one seems to be as commonly known as this one.

          • I see your point but are you saying then that a woman shouldn’t ever become emotionally intimate with a man unless she wants a sexual relationship with him? Because it seems a little presumptuous for a woman to assume that every guy who wants to be her friend just wants to get in her pants… (as well as a stereotype of men only wanting sex)

            • I would make two points.

              First, looking at your original post, the issue is NOT the woman saying “I see you as a friend. The issue is the 4 weeks of emotional intimacy that took place before that statement was made. It is difficult to believe that women have not made up their minds about who is a potential friend and who is a potential romantic partner prior to becoming emotionally intimate. Ideally, the woman would make her decision clear prior to unloading her emotions, and then let than man decide.

              Second, just to be clear, you are absolutely correct that it seems presumptuous that every guy who wants to be a woman’s friend actually just wants to be her sexual partner. But it is also presumptuous to assume that every man who you walk past on the street is a potential attacker, and women frequently have no problem expressing this fear. I see little difference between the two.

            • No guy wants to be just your friend,….sorry.

            • Joanna Schroeder says:

              Wrong.

            • wellokaythen says:

              Yeah, he could be not attracted to you, not attracted to women at all, or wanting you be just your friend in order to get closer to one of your other friends. Men are capable of all sorts of things…. ; – )

          • John Anderson says:

            I remember hearing something along those lines when I was younger. Men make the mistake that if they are sexually attracted to a woman, they should be upfront with their desire to have a sexual relationship. Too many guys feel that they need to be a woman’s friend before they can sleep with her so they take on the persona of the “nice guy”. Sometimes they get stuck in the friend zone because she never wanted to sleep with them and it had nothing to do with a lack of emotional attachment.

            There are genuine nice guys and fake “nice guys” who are actually players. It’s usually the fake “nice guys” who feel cheated. They weren’t necessarily cheated or played. They got what they deserved. The genuine nice guys might want a sexual relationship with a woman, but they usually were open to a platonic friendship and normally don’t feel betrayed if sexually rejected. They may feel hurt and that’s a natural, genuine, human emotion.

            My philosophy is that people should be honest. If you want a sexual relationship, you should be upfront. If you don’t want to have one, you should be upfront if it comes up. If you’re not going to get what you want out of a relationship, don’t get in it or get out. So why am I having such difficulty dealing with that 27 or 28 year old, who thinks I have a nice body? I care for her. I just don’t desire her sexually. I know rejecting her outright would hurt her and so I avoid it. Funny thing is she complained about never having been with a guy. I care enough for her to give her that experience, but don’t want her to confuse it with a romantic involvement. I don’t want to hurt her worse. So I don’t. We don’t want to hurt a friend feelings. Maybe that’s why women avoid it and you just think she was stringing you along.

            • “We don’t want to hurt a friend feelings. Maybe that’s why women avoid it and you just think she was stringing you along.”

              John, if this was always the case, I would agree with you 100%. Unfortunately, it is not always the case.

              In my experience, the men who feel the sense of betrayal believe that they are being used as a substitute for the emotional intimacy that the man (or men) actually sleeping with the woman is failing to provide. This results in a view that they are doing all the work (there’s a reason therapists get paid) without getting any of the benefit (the woman is sleeping with other people).

              I can also say with 100% certainty that this definitely happens. I’ve seen it happen to my male friends. I’ve seen my female friends try to do it to other men. I’ve had an ex try and use me this way. It’s little different from a man who seeks sexual intimacy outside his relationship because “she’s not satisfying him,” except that we call that man a cheater, while we don’t have a term for what women are doing regularly.

            • “It’s little different from a man who seeks sexual intimacy outside his relationship because “she’s not satisfying him,” except that we call that man a cheater, while we don’t have a term for what women are doing regularly.”

              I’d say this is due to a few different things: first, we create this very unhealthy expectation that a romantic partner is supposed to be a person’s sole (or at least greatest) source of emotional intimacy. We also have a culture that emphasizes that women are supposed to be more emotional than men. So when a woman ends up with a man who is not as emotionally available (in part because society tells him not to be) she seeks it elsewhere. Mind, you could pretty much substitute sexual for emotional and men for women in what I just said and it’d still be accurate. We’ve placed certain emotions onto specific genders and then also emphasized the monogamous aspect to relationships. It’s like – okay women, you won’t like sex, now men go find a single one who can satisfy all your needs. And men, you can’t be emotional, now women go find one who can satisfy all your needs. It’s a recipe for disaster, really.

              As to why sexual infidelity gets emphasized more than emotional infidelity…in part because it’s easier to prove. Snap a photo, catch someone in the act…it’s pretty easy to say – hey they were cheating sexually. Emotionally, it’s a bit more difficult…because that line between friend and something more can be a bit blurry. But also, I think it gets emphasized more because of our society’s problematic ways of discussing sex. It’s a hold-over from our history that we still view sex as somehow a dirty thing…only now we talk about just how dirty everyone is.

            • Mike L says:

              HeatherN,

              You definitely make some good points here.

              I just want to add that I appreciate it when people can understand that this does indeed happen, and it can be very hurtful.

              It’s frustrating to me because I have watched some of my male friends end up in very dark places as a result of problems stemming from emotional infidelity.

              Yet this very notion is denied by certain people (I know Hugo Schwyzer and at least one commenter here are among them) who claim that Nice Guys have gripes out of a sense of entitlement, rather than being individuals who have experienced very real pain. At it’s best, they’re denying a painful experience ever happened, and at worst it’s full-fledged victim blaming. I would really like it to stop.

            • John Anderson says:

              @ Mike L

              ” In my experience, the men who feel the sense of betrayal believe that they are being used as a substitute for the emotional intimacy that the man (or men) actually sleeping with the woman is failing to provide. This results in a view that they are doing all the work (there’s a reason therapists get paid) without getting any of the benefit (the woman is sleeping with other people).”

              That probably happens, but how many of those guys were simply looking for sex. There is nothing that says that they can’t use a female friend as a sounding board to work out some of their emotional problems. I talk to my female friends and acquaintances all the time. I find out some good stuff and every once in a while (much too rare for my preference) you’ll find a woman (who’s not a lesbian) who you can be candid about with your sexual experiences. Lesbians are awesome for that by the way.

        • Sarah: “It’s good for guys to keep that in mind. When she says “I see you as a friend,” the guy feels betrayed, but she’s just being honest.”

          That’s fine. But by that same token when a guy says “Hey, I was just looking for sex” he’s being just as honest.

          • True, which is why it’s important for both parties to be clear with the other about their expectations up front. If a guy is only in it for sex, he shouldn’t pretend to be interested In a relationship, and visa versa (not that I’m implying that women always want relationships and men only want sex, obviously that’s not the case).

            • Yeah, exactly, Sarah. If a guy only wants sex but wastes months or years of your time pretending to be your friend or wanting a relationship, that’s quite a betrayal on its own.

            • And about being honest with emotional intimacy. I was recently in a situation with a friend where I said OUTRIGHT to him, ‘you’re in the friend zone.’ Where he talked about other women he was dating/sleeping with (and he really was, he wasn’t posturing) and I did the same. And, after months, there was STILL a strong sense of him feeling betrayed by my lack of sexual interest –and I never did this in an insulting way; I always made sure he knew he was an attractive guy and congratulated him on his dating successes. I just don’t know anymore. I like my male friends and the perspective and fun they bring, but I can’t just sleep with every man who gives me attention. I did some of that in college and was branded a bit of of a slut and it often made friendships awkward. A few moments of hot pleasure just isn’t worth the risk anymore. I can stick to porn, vibrators, my hand, and fantasies.

            • John Anderson says:

              @ Aya
              “And, after months, there was STILL a strong sense of him feeling betrayed by my lack of sexual interest”

              Are you sure he wasn’t just hurt? He’s either stubborn, masochistic, or genuinely your friend, but wants more. I remember confusing sex with love when I was very inexperienced. Is it possible to confuse affection with a sexual urge? People look more attractive to me now when I connect with them emotionally.

              “I like my male friends and the perspective and fun they bring, but I can’t just sleep with every man who gives me attention. I did some of that in college and was branded a bit of of a slut and it often made friendships awkward”

              Are you sure that’s not the reason you don’t sleep with him because you think it will ruin your friendship?

            • assman says:

              “If a guy is only in it for sex, he shouldn’t pretend to be interested In a relationship, and visa versa”

              This statement is problematic. The dichotomy here is “sex only” or relationship. Which seems to mean that either you want to have sex with the girl only or you just want a relationship with no sex. But what about a full blown sexual relationship i.e. sex + companionship. If they guy is upfront about sex does this mean he is put into the “sex only” category when the truth is that he just does not want to be put into the friend zone. This puts guys in some sort of dilemma. And of course how does anybody know what they want from a person until they talk to them and spend some time with them. I am supposed to be upfront about my intentions before I even know you?

              Heck I might not even know whether I want a relationship until after I have had sex. How can you know exactly what you want when you don’t even know what your getting.

            • I don’t think Sarah meant to imply that a relationship without sex or sex only are the only two options. I think what she’s trying to say is that someone should make their intentions known up-front. No one should pretend to be interested in something that they’re not. I get that sometimes a relationship forms out of a sexual encounter, but the important thing is to never pretend that a sexual encounter means more than it does. And, conversely, if someone has firmly placed a friend in the ‘friendship’ box and isn’t interested in a sexual/romantic relationship, they shouldn’t lead the other person on. Again, I get that sometimes ‘just friends’ can turn into a romantic relationship…but, again, the point is not to misrepresent your intentions.

            • Obviously it’s not all one or the other. Great relationships need great sex. What I meant was, if a guy is only interested in having sex, he shouldn’t pretend that he’s interested in a Relationship. He should be upfront about the fact that he only wants no-strings-attached sex. Or that he wants sex that may or may not lead to a relationship. Similarly, if a woman wants a relationship, she should not pretend she’s fine with having no-strings-attached sex if she’s not. The genders could be reversed in these scenarios, of course. Or we could be talking about same sex couples. Having ulterior motives is always a recipe for hurt feelings and resentment.

    • You struggle to see the evidence because the only time you see them is when they’re venting their frustration. No one looks too good when they’re venting frustration and anger no matter how justified. Wild, dangerous guys DO get laid all the time. I don’t think there’s any sort of binary, and I don’t think anyone believes that there is.

      There is plenty of truth to the notion that guys who are too respectful and too polite to women are destined for the shelf. Someone who is legitimately nice is going to avoid doing anything that could make a woman uncomfortable or upset. You’ll agree that that is nice and good, correct? Unfortunately, men are required to take all the risks when it comes to dating and meeting women. One of the risks that you face is making a woman uncomfortable and or upset, offended, whatever. Putting yourself out there and trying to be playful requires these risks. Men who don’t care about how the woman feels don’t care about these risks because they don’t bother them in the slightest. It allows them to hesitate not at all when making a sexually charged remark that may or may not be appropriate, or initiating touch, or approaching in an aggressive manner, or any host of other things. A nice and polite guy will be very concerned about this and so he will not take the risk of offending, or he will be nervous about potentially offending, and it just won’t work out.

      I don’t think that it is that most women don’t like nice guys — as long as they’re not too nice anyway — it is that they aren’t the ones shoving themselves at women so they aren’t paid any attention.

      In a sense, in order to interact with women and potentially get a date, you need to be able to completely disregard how you may make her feel. If you don’t, you won’t take the risks required to make something happen. It’s not entirely fair, but it is the way it is. I can sympathize with all the guys who don’t or can’t do that, because I’m not there yet either.

      • QuantumInc says:

        Collin – “Unfortunately, men are required to take all the risks when it comes to dating and meeting women. One of the risks that you face is making a woman uncomfortable and or upset, offended, whatever. ”
        A good point, but if you’ll excuse the terminology, I want to blame rape culture for this fact. There isn’t really any way for a man to assert himself sexually without scaring a woman (usually). Honest open conversations about sex are so rare, and the stereotype of sexually aggressive men so common, you can’t attempt the former without everyone assuming the latter. The Good Men project has brought this up before.

        Naturally nice men include “Avoid asserting yourself sexually” as part of their long list of nice things to do. Naturally when you never assert yourself sexually the person you’re talking to never thinks of you as a sexual being, let alone a potential sexual partner. These nice men lacking confidence are reluctant to intentionally flirt or even ask for a date.

        I said “rape culture” because sex without consent is rape, and you can’t explicitly ask for explicit consent without explicitly mentioning sex. I guess there is still implicit consent, but that obviously makes it harder. Also, there is the stereotype that all sex is somehow harmful to women, when in reality that’s only true of rape. Nice guys often believe this, and thus avoid sex when talking to women.

        In addition I will note that patriarchal norms have established certain dangerous qualities as attractive in men. I’ve read several feminist analyses of the Twilight trilogy, each pointing out multiple places where the romantic heroes stalk, mistreat, control and abuse the protagonist Bella, and yet a significant percentage of women of all ages across the industrialized world feel those romantic heroes are the hottest guys in fiction today.

        • This argument is further evidence of why gender studies is mostly bunk.

          If this had to fit into a gender studies framework, it’s clearly female privilege. The women benefit from not having to take any risks, and the cost of risk taking is shifted entirely to men. This benefit remains largely invisible to women, who constantly insist that “Women sometimes ask men out!” or “I’m not like that at all!” This is not dissimilar from the familiar “But it also happens to white people!” common in race privilege discussions.

          Yet when someone who clearly invests themselves into Gender Studies frameworks comes along, they don’t want to go with the obvious answer, female privilege, because that would violate the unwritten rule that there are certain designated victim groups and they can never be held responsible for their own actions.

          So instead, rape culture and patriarchy are invoked in order to try and explain away an obvious instance of privilege.

          Let’s all just stop accepting these ideas as legitimate arguments and begin to call them out for the inconsistent tropes that they actually are.

        • I’m not sure how this subject connects to the concept of “rape culture.” But I agree that stereotypical Nice Guys often seem to be conflicted about sexuality and they have erroneous beliefs about women. They have bought into the idea that women want Relationships and that women are never motivated by the baser instincts that drive men, like desire for fun, excitement, challenge and plain old lust. My boyfriend is a man who had a lot of difficulty attracting women in his younger years despite being 6’2″, good looking, responsible, steady, employed in a good career, and smart. He has confessed to me that he harbored the erroneous idea for many years that wonen don’t like sex. He thought that his sexuality would be distasteful and gross to women so he always tried to downplay it. We still have some issues in our relationship, honestly, because he is afraid to tell me what he wants or to express sexual thoughts. I’ve had to really work to convince him that I actually enjoy hot, lustful sex! Luckily he’s a quick study….

          • assman says:

            “He has confessed to me that he harbored the erroneous idea for many years that wonen don’t like sex. He thought that his sexuality would be distasteful and gross to women so he always tried to downplay it.”

            A relatively common idea in most cultures is the idea that a man who has sex is “using” a woman and he has to provide something to compensate in return. This may be financially supporting her, taking care of her, doing stuff for her, protecting her etc. This concept of using a woman sexually is pretty common. Many Asians have this view which is why Asian men buy women expensive presents for girlfriends. In old western society the idea was that you were using a women if you had sex and didn’t ultimately marry .

            • In fact, in the old days, a woman could sue for monetary damages if she had premarital sex with a man based on a promise of marriage. It was called the tort of “seduction.”. The woman had to prove that she was “chaste” before she met the defendant (I.e. that she had been a virgin). This was still a valid ground for a lawsuit in most U.S. states until the 1940’s or 1950’s, I believe,

      • wellokaythen says:

        This is key here:
        “Someone who is legitimately nice is going to avoid doing anything that could make a woman uncomfortable or upset.”

        Excellent point about many men being overly cautious. Based on autobiographical experience, I think many “nice guys” are deeply afraid of doing or saying anything that might come across as offensive, and they can imagine how just about anything can sound bad to women they’re attracted to. As a result, they shut down and act fairly passive. That’s often why they seem like good listeners – they’ll let you do all the talking because they’re afraid to say much, and they like the fact that you’re talking to them. It’s almost like a relationship, except for the fact that you’re acting like you don’t exist.

  2. Transhuman says:

    It is of no real meaning to men why women choose the men they do. When men can set aside their obsession with what women want, think or feel then we can attend to the serious matter of improving quality of life for men. Women are not the be-all and end-all of being men, they are merely 51% of the population. Women offer no answers for men, we have to find those ourselves.

  3. I know this is a complicated topic but one question I’ve asked my “nice guy” friends to think about, when this topic comes up, is: why do people lIke roller coasters? Why do people like action movies? Why do people eat jalapeño peppers and watch extreme sports? Do you want to see movies with a lot of drama and action, or movies where everyone sits around saying nice things and nothing interesting happens?

    Women like excitement, just like men do. Some women are adrenaline junkies. They like the rush of being in a relationship that’s unpredictable and full of energy. If you feel you are always being rejected for being “too nice,” what that may mean (harsh as this sounds) is that you are boring. I would argue that you DON’T have to become an asshole to attract women. But if ALL you ever do is sit around saying loving and respectful things to her, you may need to spice it up. Not by being a jerk, but by being more assertive and more interesting. Don’t let your life revolve around her every second. The alternative is to look for women who are allergic to adrenaline and who want a comfortable, low drama relationship. There are women like that out there, but they may be less visible.

    • Terence Manuel says:

      @Sarah….Good points. When women hit 40+ that is when they want “low drama” relationships.

      Usually, they are hard to find as the men have moved on and/or become a “jerk” to get laid. Hence, the constant and incessantly complaining from women over 50 about the lack of “nice” guys and the trials of online dating…

      You do indeed reap what you sow!

      • That’s true. I always have to laugh when women over thirty complain that men on online dating sites always list “20-25” as their range. “Why can’t men date women their own age??”

        Meanwhile, women in the 20-25 range are only interested in men ~30. No women I’ve seen who complain about this ever seems to make the connection.

        • And you won’t see them make the connection anytime soon as long as its okay for those 20-25 women to keep on listing men that are older but men that are older listing women that are 20-25 are considered “perverts”, “leachers”, and of course “creeps”.

          Guys their own age weren’t good enough for them when they were 20 but now that they are 50 those same guys are supposed to be falling all over them now? (Oddly guys don’t get that courtesy extended to them.)

        • I meant to say that “some” men and “some” women in my above post when talking about age gaps. My bad.

        • “I always have to laugh when women over thirty complain that men on online dating sites always list “20-25″ as their range. “Why can’t men date women their own age?….Meanwhile, women in the 20-25 range are only interested in men ~30. No women I’ve seen who complain about this ever seems to make the connection.”

          Ummm…women 20-25 wanting to date men under 30 IS their own age. How is that hypocritical or doesn’t make sense? At 15, I wanted to date 15 year old guys. At 18, 18-22 guys probably. At 25, men under 30. At 40+ I highly doubt I’d be going for a college kid. That sounds terribly inconvenient. It’s still all your own age…I still don’t see the hypocrisy here..

          • because ~ doesn’t mean “under” it means “roughly” It’s a squiggle line, not a minus.

            But if that wasn’t the issue you’re having with understanding my point, allow me to explain further.

            When (some) women are *around* 20-25 they aren’t interested in dating men who are also 20-25 but only in guys who are about thirty. I’ve personally heard a 22 y/o say she won’t date a man under thirty.

            Now, personally? I’ve got no problem with this, date whoever the heck you want. I don’t care. (especially since I’m closer to thirty than 25 anyway lol.)

            The issue comes when (a lot of) these women get to be around thirty themselves. Suddenly they find iut’s the men who are their cohorts with the age preferences. Men who they rejected ten years ago. Men who are acting exactly like the men they themselves dated ten years ago. And suddenly they don’t like it.

            • “because ~ doesn’t mean “under” it means “roughly” It’s a squiggle line, not a minus”

              8ball: Sorry, I read that completely wrong–I was tired this morning…:/

              But I don’t know about the rest of it. I don’t have too much personal experience with it. I’ve tended to like people my age and have only dated/slept with/crushed on people within two years up or down (I’m just past my mid-20s now), since those were the people I’ve been around/worked with/met at parties. I’m not saying I always had the best of dating preferences, but I didn’t know the man being 30 thing was even a ‘thing.’ There are people who I have/might have rejected when I was 21 that I would adore now, and guys at 21 I liked that I would find repulsive now (and I assume that’s how many guys feel about me). Maybe a guy gained confidence, or became more humble, became more noticeable, or something changed about the way he looks at women (or me in particular). Maybe I came out of my shell and realized that we have lots in common. Maybe certain things that I don’t enjoy about his personality became more pronounced. But that was because the men (and I) have changed, not because I had a set preference for any specific age or anything like that. Preferences can be very fluid, too.

      • John Anderson says:

        @ Terrence Manuel

        “When women hit 40+ that is when they want “low drama” relationships.”

        Sometimes life circumstance and experience changes a person too. A female friend, who is extremely gorgeous for having had three kids, was in an abusive relationship. Her first child was with this guy. She met a nice guy. Married him and had two more kids. She would never go back to bad boys. I think having the kid changed her perspective on what was important.
        A female friend asked me why guys wouldn’t date women who had children. I told her that it wasn’t that we wouldn’t date them or sleep with them. We just don’t see them as marriage material so the relationship will eventually hit a block. Why get into a serious relationship where you’ll always come second, but if you guys don’t care, it might be worth looking into.

        • Well said, John Anderson. There are a whole number of life experiences that can shift your view on men, as well as maturity and learning about yourself and the world. I don’t see how it’s odd to want one thing at 20 and another at 40. What I thought I wanted at 16 is not what I think want at 26. Also, not every guy is simply nice or an asshole. Some guys are nice in certain situations and assholes in others. Other guys change from one to the other in the course of a lifetime.

    • John Anderson says:

      I agree. Women like to be around guys that are fun not necessarily high energy or full of drama or even necessarily exciting. It’s true with guys also. Not just romantic partners, but friends also. You’re idea of fun will change with age. I remember moving a lady friend out of her apartment. She wasn’t packed and expected us to help her. We were packing the stuff in her dresser and ran across her sex toys. We were freaked and had to get even so we hung one of her bras from the car mirror. She freaked out when she saw it. Ah, the stupidity of youth. We had known her for about 10 years at the time. Amazingly, we were still friends.

  4. Why do women not know how to handle a nice guy, or a guy who always shows a lot of love, and doesn’t disrespect them? In the beginning, they like all that, but then they start disrespecting you and they take advantage of such niceness. Nice guys ended up feeling frustrated because they don’t receive the same love that they give. Is it really true that what women like is drama, and bad guys who disrespect them, don’t call, and don’t show much love, or who they are?
    I get the feeling this guy, at some point, may have been a genuine nice guy. But along the way something happened and he turned into what we see here. That something could have been a woman that did take advantage of his niceness, a woman that did go from being nice to disrespecting him, or something else. In fact it could be that he himself has had no relationship and is just a victim of the misfortune of never meeting someone (while at the same time seeing the things he describes happen to other guys).

    In short I don’t think a deep seated disregard/hatred for women is the sole explanation for the Nice Guy phenomenon.

  5. Whenever the term “nice guy” comes to my notice, it usually denotes a shy, not so confident person who is always eager to please others and seeks validation from them. These kind of guys are disrespected and taken advantage of not only by women but also other assertive men. If you want others to respect you then you have to offer carrots but also carry big stick and be willing to use it at opportune moment. The solutions to the predicament of these nice guys as following
    1) Grow some spine and stop seeking validation from others.
    2) Start rationing your niceness towards women.
    3) Set limits as to how much you can favor them and what you want in return.
    4) Learn to say “no.”
    5) Tit for tat. If somebody disrespects you, then pay in the same coin.
    6) Last and finally, girls are like buses which comes after every fifteen minutes, have patience. Do not run after going bus or girl, but if it is waiting you can board it.

    • Copyleft says:

      That’s an excellent overview of the Nice Guy situation, Rapses. Too many of us were conditioned as boys to treat girls with a mixture of reverence and fear (as distinct from the uber-confident “jocks” who, we were assured, would wind up losing in the long run), and never grew beyond that stage.

      The only way we knew how to interact with girls we were attracted to was to be extra-considerate, thoughtful, compassionate and generous… i.e., “nice.” And then hope she later decided she loved us for all the qualities she had repeatedly claimed to desire most. When reality hit, we noticed that it didn’t work that way; we got exiled to the Friend Zone and if we broached the subject of romance (or god forbid, sex) it was regarded as a betrayal.

      Nice Guys need to move past that, in the way you describe. Don’t wait to be noticed; don’t be a doormat; and most importantly, don’t take abuse in the hopes of earning a “favorite crying towel” status. The Girl of Your Dreams is actually the Girl of the Month; wait a couple weeks and you’ll spot a new one.

      • As a woman who has unfortunately friend zoned men, I can agree with this. Usually the guys that I friend zoned were guys that weren’t really interested in ME, they were interesting in having a Relationship. It didn’t really matter if it was me or the woman he liked before me, or the next one to come along. They just wanted any female companionship. One of my guy friends is a good example of this – he is interested in any woman who shows him kindness or thinks he’s funny. Unfortunately, these women are never interested in him (but that’s mostly because he has some gross habits that are really unattractive and drive women away… but that’s a whole ‘nother story).

        But another thing I notice about the Friend Zone is that it has somewhat of a euphemism for a label. It seems almost much more complicated or whatever than what it really is, at least for me. All men that I Friend Zoned were men that I didn’t want to have sex with. That’s what it really boils down to. I went for a workout with my boyfriend and his best friend once, and while his best friend and I were on the treadmills, we got onto the topic of the friend zone. He stated that with guys there’s just Women That They’re Attracted To and Women That They Aren’t. I said that women are the same way, and that the Friend Zone is mostly for men that a woman just isn’t attracted to. He seemed confused by that.

        • “Usually the guys that I friend zoned were guys that weren’t really interested in ME, they were interesting in having a Relationship. It didn’t really matter if it was me or the woman he liked before me, or the next one to come along. They just wanted any female companionship.”

          Steph: THIS. It’s not that the guy is nice or a loser, at ALL. A lot of guys think that it’s some sort of elitism, wanting assholes, etc. I’ve discussed this on different threads, but a lot of it comes down to feeling interchangeable. I’ve also known guys who fall for every woman who gives them any attention. A woman wants her man to make her feel special, even in casual encounters. She needs to trust him. The guys who’ve given off that vibe have tended to be the guys who cheat, brag, humiliate, and seek revenge.

          • Terence Manuel says:

            @Aya….”A woman wants her man to make her feel special, even in casual encounters.”

            This is completely dishonest and you know it!!! You’re would have me believe a hookup or booty call is making a woman feel special? In these casual encounters, it is about sex, period.

        • John Anderson says:

          @ Steph

          “One of my guy friends is a good example of this – he is interested in any woman who shows him kindness or thinks he’s funny. Unfortunately, these women are never interested in him”

          Your friend misinterprets women’s actions. I’ve done this many times myself. I was friends with a woman. Mutual guy friends told me that she liked me and she asked me to lunch. As I was enjoying this wonderful lunch, she mentions her fiancé. I wasn’t trying to get into a sexual relationship with her not that she wasn’t pretty, but I was going with someone else at the time. The big thing was this was the point I realized that I will never comprehend when a woman is actually interested and not just being friendly. I’ve known lots of guys like this.

          • Copyleft says:

            At least part of that is because women are conditioned to NOT show interest; they’re told they should always be approached, never to approach anyone themselves.

    • From my own observations I have come to the conclusion that there is nothing friendly about the so-called “friend zone” for men in relationship to women. Most of the women are quite aware that the guy concerned is really interested in her and tend to manipulate his feelings for her for her own benefit. I have noticed women seeking the help of these “friend zoned” men whenever they are in need to do some stuff for them, but rarely do these women reciprocate the help. For example, if the guy is sick, she would not come to cook for her or help him out, but when he recovers and meets her she would just say some nice words and act friendly. It is sheer emotional manipulation perfected by ladies.

      • Those are usually women who treat their female friends the same way. I’ve known women who will want to be your BFF then they just completely wear you out with the drama and emotional demands; while they are single, they want to get together and cry on your shoulder every night, but as soon as they get a boyfriend, they drop you like a rock. But then as soon as starts acting like a jerk, they want to cry on your shoulder again. However , they never reciprocate when you need something. This is basically what’s known as a histrionic personality style, if you want to look that up (not necessarily a full blown disorder, but a style of relating). They tend to make friends easily because they create a sense if connection and intimacy very quickly, but in the end, it’s all about them. Maybe these types of women are the ones who foster overly close relationships with “nice guys”?

    • Jonathan G says:

      Excellent list, Rapses. It reminds me of the book “No More Mr. Nice Guy” by Robert Glover, which had some great insights for me, and really helped a friend to whom I passed it along. Basically, it boils down to this: Express your (reasonable) relationship needs in an honest, straight-forward way, and insist that she try to meet them.

  6. I am 31 years old and have always wanted to marry a nice guy.

    The problem? I have never – repeat, NEVER, not even in high school – been able to find a nice guy who hadn’t already been snatched up by a manipulative harpie who didn’t deserve him.

    If there are ANY genuine nice guys left, please send them my way.

    • @ Anne …. my son is available. But then you would have to put up with me 😉

    • John Anderson says:

      There are some out there. Don’t lose heart. I’ve been told I’m a nice guy. There are already two women at work in their late-20s I’m trying to hook up. I’ve gotten a lot of compliments on the friends I keep. It has to do with my policy of not hanging out with assholes. Unfortunately, most of my male friends are mid-40s and the single ones like me will probably never marry. Some of the younger ones are too irresponsible. If I find three 30 something or so nice guys I’ll let you know. One young lady said that if she found a boyfriend she’d bring him around to see if I approved.

  7. Madeleine says:

    Oh, I think it has nothing to do with nice guys. Some people (it goes both ways) like drama, period. It’s addiction, it’s a way to distract themselves from themselves. It’s an attitude that is reflected in all aspects of their lives, not only relationships, they are easy to spot in the end.

    If you are a nice guy, that’s not the kind of woman you want anyway.

  8. It has do with midface proportions. Nice guy = guy with long midface.

  9. Wirbelwind says:

    My advice ? When you have a friend who just dates a series of jerks that treat her like shit the entire time and yet she does not change her preference, does not listen to your advice etc… then simply stop caring. If you can’t, then distance yourself from her.
    You can’t help people who don’t want to help themselves.

  10. Anthony Zarat says:

    Both answers are WRONG.

    Correct answer:

    Q: Why do people like to steal? A: Property is a social concept, not a biological concept. Newborn children, as well as most animals, have no understanding of property, hence no understanding of the word “steal.” What separates humans from animals is the ability to re-invent ourselves through culture.

    Female attraction to “bad boys” falls into the same category. Biologically, the optimal reproductive strategy for females is to balance two competing objectives: to secure the resources of a “nice guy” and the reproductive seed of a “bad boy”. However, don’t let this upset you. Most women have learned to let go of this biological drive, in favor of a more socially acceptable reproductive strategy.

    The last time you walked past something you wanted, did it even occur to you to simply take it? Culture is a stronger force than biological programming.

  11. gabby watts says:

    Because guys don’t like nice women.

    • Wirbelwind says:

      People who prefer femme fatale to nice women are simply suicidal or don’t want to have a loving, long term marriage (and I don’t mean 5 year marriages but more like 30+ ones).

    • John Anderson says:

      You’d be surprised. I had a bad boy friend who became a gang member for protection when another gang went after him, but was never “hard core”. He was a boxer and a known tough guy. He handled gang business to the point where they let him walk in and walk out (people are usually jumped in and out). He was very good with the ladies and could talk a woman in the sack in minutes. The woman he married did not meet conventional beauty standards by a long shot, but was the sweetest gal you’d ever want to meet. What attracted him to her initially was that she was the only woman to ask him out. She paid for the date. As he got to know her, he fell in love with her kindness. She helped his family when his mom got sick.

      Now he graduated from college. Has a 60K a year job. He has a lovely daughter. He’s no longer in the gang, but loads up on life insurance because he knows that his past will probably catch up to him. Funny thing is he doesn’t worry about it. He only worries that his family is taken care of.

  12. I think the key thing that alot of people miss on this subject is that women don’t want “nice guys” or “bad boys”. They want Good Men.

    Unfortunetly or fortunetly, depending on how you view this topic, being “nice” isn’t enough for a man or woman. It’s the same reason you see the quiet, nice girls getting passed up for their more obvious-hotter charming girls. Same thing happens to men and women. I for one am glad that being “nice” isn’t enough. I don’t want to be with someone that just thinks I’m “nice” enough to be with. And I don’t want to be with someone that is simply “nice” too. Relatoinships are more gloriously complicated then that.

    • “I think the key thing that alot of people miss on this subject is that women don’t want “nice guys” or “bad boys”. They want Good Men.”

      *Slow clap*

      That was a flawless plug :)

      • So women aren’t allowed to want good men?

        Jimmy, I’ve been saying that same line way before I knew “Good Man Project” existed. You think the people that made “Good Man Project” are the only people in the world that want “good men”?.

        I have no problem or issue with men in return wanting “good women”. People like good people. You don’t like that? Too bad. Most people consider “goodness” a positive traite. Most people want “goodness” in their lives. But you are more then free to search for whatever you want in your life, goodness or not. But the fact remains, that women will always respect men that they believe fit into qualities that are admirable and “good”.

    • “I think the key thing that alot of people miss on this subject is that women don’t want “nice guys” or “bad boys”. They want Good Men.”

      Just the new spin on the old real man narrative, innit?

      • What would you have us want Eoghan? Bad men? Good men as defined by the 50’s? 60’s? 20’s? By which culture? I have no idea.

        • Eoghan says:

          Hi Julie

          I don’t think it should be a case of women constructing men really, it should be more a case of men being themselves and women not dictating the terms of what a man should be regardless if its the well to do women that constructed the “gentleman” back then, or the women that created these “nice guys” during the 80s and 90s we are discussing here.

          • Eoghan says:

            See Julie

            What has remained a constant as being attractive right though all the fads, gentleman, niceguy which didn’t really take off at all, has been a man who is his own construction.

            And this nice guy thing isn’t new at all. Take gone with the wind, or the theme of manys a romance novel, supplicating nice guys trying to woo women by following the rules of what women say they want and men to be, but its always the TDK stranger that doesn’t care much for society’s rules that makes the women swoon.

            What do you think?

            • Eoghan says:

              edit

              TDH

            • If we ARE talking about Gone With the Wind, Scarlett DID spend most of it swooning over a nice guy (Ashley)–he was just unavailable and in love with someone else. It took her a very long time to warm up to the bad boy, Rhett. It seemed that she enjoyed the chase, rather than ‘bad boys’ themselves.

          • Eoghan, by “good men”, I don’t mean men that buy women flowers and pay for dates and fulfill romance novel dreams. At the most basic form, I simply mean men that try. Try to do what’s right, try to grow, try to be in partnership with women, not against them.

            I also don’t think women even want the job of constructing men. I think women want to see men be good leaders and take up the roles where they lead and guide their own lives. But I also think women want to see men that play honorably, faithfully and with grace and honor. And I can’t see the bad in that.

            And the reality is that I think men and women have the ability to make each other better. Through the fact that sometimes we think of things differently and do have different needs. And meeting the needs of someone else that isn’t just like you, does help you to grow. How do I know this? The relatoinships I’ve had with certain men have taught me to be a more kind and thoughtful person. When I was younger, I was a much more selfish person that was always looking to see what someone could do for me. But as I got older and had significant relationships with men, they taught me a lot about giving and how meeting their needs was just as important as them meeting my needs. sometimes more so. These experiences have made me a better person and a better partner. Not just romantically, but how I dealt with all the men in my life. From family to friends.

            • Eoghan says:

              Hi Erin, I’m glad you responded,

              “I think women want to see men be good leaders and take up the roles where they lead and guide their own lives. But I also think women want to see men that play honorably, faithfully and with grace and honor. And I can’t see the bad in that.”

              Ok, well this is nothing new, is it? Its trad. masculinity and the gentleman’s code in a nutshell. What these nice guys were told that women don’t want by dating advice and feminist messages over the last few decades.

            • At some point, the singular focused blaming for all things Feminism is going to have to level out and we are going to have to face other realities about why things may be the way they are. Good and bad. I realize that Feminism hasn’t been perfect and it’s had it’s set backs, but there is going to have to be a time when people ask themselves how they have contributed to certain messages and dig deeper into social constructs then just relaying overly heavily on the surface fragment picture Feminism presents to explain what is actually a very intricate and complicated web of a story. Until we dig deeper then mearly blaming everything on Feminism, we are going to continue to have the same discussion.

              I don’t think it’s anything new that women want honorable, faithful, kind men filled with grace and honor. But what has changed is how these words are met in non-traditional ways. Not all women are looking for the same thing. “Honor” can mean one thing to one woman and another thing to another woman. Masculinity will be defined differently depending on the woman you are talking to. We might use similar shot-gun words but our meanings behind those words will and do vary. It’s like when women say, “I like a guy with a sense of humor.” Some women like slap-stick comedy, think Steve Martin. Some women like satire and self-deprecating humor. Think Jon Stewart. Some women like goofy sweet clods. Think Will Farrell. Some like bad-ass sarcasm. Think Samual. L. Jackson. What you are missing Eoghan is women are allowed to have certain traits in men they like or don’t like. And that not all traits will mean the same exact thing to all women.

            • Eoghan says:

              “What you are missing Eoghan is women are allowed to have certain traits in men they like or don’t like. And that not all traits will mean the same exact thing to all women.”

              No Im not missing that, I am talking about a dichotomy though.

              Good man / bad man.
              Gentleman / ungentleman.
              Realman/ not a realman.

              Through the ages, these labels mainly come to down to how a man relates to women, in some way.

            • Terence Manuel says:

              @Erin…

              “At the most basic form, I simply mean men that try. Try to do what’s right, try to grow, try to be in partnership with women, not against them.”

              This is not good enough for most women. As cultural anthropologist Margaret Mead said, “What a woman says, what a woman does, and what a women says she does are three different things.”

              Women have a responsibility too. How about starting with some basic honesty.

          • John Anderson says:

            @ Eoghan

            “I don’t think it should be a case of women constructing men really, it should be more a case of men being themselves and women not dictating the terms of what a man should be”

            Everyone should be true to themselves, but why should a woman not look for a man that she wants? Men shouldn’t change to match women’s ideals, but women shouldn’t be bullied into changing their ideals too. When they find out that their ideals are not reasonably attainable, they’ll either adjust them or resign themselves to the single life. Just like body image issues, we should discourage men and boys from seeking to attain an unrealistic ideal. It will only end up hurting you in the end. If a woman doesn’t appreciate you for who you are, take a cue for the anti-rape campaigns. No means no and find someone else. There are plenty of women except in India.

            • Well said John! i agree with you.

            • Eoghan says:

              I think that you might have misinterpreted me John.

              I was making a comment on the historic construction and labeling of men and constructing masculinity and the men that were taken in by it – gentleman, realman, niceguy, feminist male … now its good men.

    • Women like good men as well as bad boys but never spineless man. Nowadays what passes as a nice guy is a person with “doormat” personality.

      • Honestly I would cheat emotionally and sexually on a man who was “spineless.” For me the stereotypical nice guy puts me as the center of his entire universe and rotates his entire world around me. That’s a lot of pressure and I don’t particularly like it. It makes me feel like I’m shouldering the entire relationship. It’s suddenly not a partnership. It becomes someone who gives up his friends for the sake of the relationship (which is a huge pet peeve of mine). Someone who no longer has any hobbies outside of the relationship any my hobbies. It’s someone who is there all the time and doesn’t go out on his own etc. I would bet a lot of women want a man who isn’t getting arrested all the time and doesn’t beat on her but also doesn’t revolve his entire world around her.

        But personally since the stereotypical nice guy I’ve run into (or at least these are the men that vocalize no women want nice guys anymore) are really more of a doormat I avoid them completely knowing that I can’t handle the pressure of that kind of relationship because I need space to breathe. And I would cheat. I would find the first intellectually stimulating man who doesn’t have a conversation that involves me and my life and cheat.

        • Honestly I would cheat emotionally and sexually on a man who was [nice] … I would find the first intellectually stimulating man who doesn’t have a conversation that involves me and my life and cheat.

          As opposed to just break up with him like a morally responsible adult?

          And people wonder how Nice Guys(TM) are created…

          • I would cheat if that is the sort of person I dated. At least I know myself well enough to admit it. So I don’t get involved with people like that in the first place and it negates the entire problem of cheating. But I know if I did get involved with someone like that I would cheat.

            • John Anderson says:

              @ Kat

              “I would cheat if that is the sort of person I dated.”

              I suspect that you never did this or you’d know that the problem with that is revenge sex just leaves you with an empty feeling. It wasn’t sex that you wanted. You just did that to hurt someone else. It’ll just make you feel cheap in the end.

            • Kat,

              I would cheat if that is the sort of person I dated. At least I know myself well enough to admit it. So I don’t get involved with people like that in the first place and it negates the entire problem of cheating. But I know if I did get involved with someone like that I would cheat.

              Being honest that you’d cheat on someone doesn’t negate the aforementioned CHEATING. Sorry but whether you’re honest or a liar, if you cheat you’re a cheater. I think it’s shameful that you really believe being honest about being horrible somehow makes you not horrible. Actually, I seriously hope you never do this to any poor, unsuspecting nice guy. People don’t deserve to be treated that way.

            • Kat says:
              “I would cheat if that is the sort of person I dated. At least I know myself well enough to admit it. So I don’t get involved with people like that in the first place and it negates the entire problem of cheating. But I know if I did get involved with someone like that I would cheat.”

              Actually, the argument I have seen on citizen renegade (which your views seem to fall in line with) is that women are hypergamous and always looking for the next “better” mate prospect (i.e. the guy even more assertive, charming, charismatic, confident, and teasing) than the guy they are currently with.

              If you were dating a guy who met all your criteria, and then you found a single guy who met banged even more of your buttons what would be to stop you from coming to the conclusion that (by comparison) your current bf was in face a “nice guy” and cheat on him because the new guy was banging all of your buttons like a mallet on a gong?

              And some women have the gall to wonder about Hymowitz talking about the next generation of “child men” who do not want to marry or engage in LTR’s, instead selecting to serial date and not start families.

  13. soullite says:

    Women tend to associate kindness with weakness. The rest is just the BS they tell themselves to make that ‘okay’; so that they can rest a little easier at night.

    Just look at this thread: Some women in it want to change the subject completely – generally to whether male friendship is ‘real’ or not. Others just dismiss this out of hand without any real discussion at all; making up petty justifications that equate men to roller-coasters or other objects that exist solely for their entertainment.

    For a group of people that pride themselves on being against sexism, I get the distinct feeling that they’ve never spent much time examining their own views toward men, most notably what place the think men should have in their lives. A whole lot of them sound like you really do want to be objects that get acted upon; like they expect men to come along and make their boring little lives into some grand adventure.

    It seems that a lot of people claiming to be women are really just little girls clinging to adolescent fantasies.

    • I made the roller coaster comment, but I wasn’t saying that women see men as roller coasters, I was saying that EVERYBODY wants fun and excitement in their lives. So do men!! Why do men often prefer hot girls who are manipulative psychos over boring, stable, nice, but not-so-hot girls? Because it’s more exciting. It’s more fun. Wouldn’t you rather see life as an adventure, and look for someone to share the adventure with you?

      Actually I was trying to make a positive comment, in that a Nice Guy does not have to stop being a nice, good, considerate person to attract women, he just may have to work on bringing more fun to his relationships with women. It’s not a character flaw. A lot of Nice Guys, in my experience, are anxious, feel conflicted about expressing their sexuality, and put women on pedestals. I’ve met plenty of guys who are nice, but are also real ladies’ men, because while still being nice they are also comfortable with presenting themselves as fully sexual beings. They don’t waste time becoming friends with women, they seek out women they want to date and make their interest clear from the get go. If the women isn’t interested, they keep looking. You only have so much time in the day and while you are hanging out with the woman who is just your friend, you aren’t out meeting women who might want to date you.

      I realize that being the initiator in relationships is really tough. I’ve asked men out a few times in my life and been rejected, and it sucks. Unfortunately, things are not likely to change. Attractive women don’t have to ask men out because so many men are pursuing them all the time. Less attractive women may feel frustrated with the lack of attention but perceive that they have little to gain by asking men out because they know that if a man isn’t physically attracted to them, there’s no point. By waiting for the man to initiate, they do not waste time pursuing men who will never be interested in them. I think women as a rule take longer to make up their minds about a guy, so he can ask a lot of women out and hope to win sme of them over. Whereas if a man isn’t attracted, sheI probably can’t change that. This system can be crappy for both men and women but I’m not sure there is anything that can be done about it. You have to learn to work within the system I guess.

      • “Why do men often prefer hot girls who are manipulative psychos over boring, stable, nice, but not-so-hot girls?”

        Because they’re hot. I’ll take a stable, nice, hot girl please. Hold the boring.

      • I went to a bar last weekend where the ratio of women to men was borderline insane. There were about 15 women to every one guy in there. I was surprised that they weren’t approaching guys like crazy with the odds stacked so heavily against them.

        • Actually women may feel even more inhibited in that kind of environment because there are so many other women around watching how they behave with the few available guys.

        • Copyleft says:

          You shouldn’t have been surprised. Women approaching men is still a huge taboo in a very large sector of American society. Few women even think to challenge it; even fewer have the courage required to actually walk up to a man that interests them and start talking.

          “I’m worried I’ll seem desperate” is the usual comment–which should tell you something about how they view the men who approach them.

          Ahh, it’s a messed-up society we live in…..

          • “Which should tell you something about how they view the men who approach them.”

            I was with you until you added this bit. I think because our society has placed gender onto approaching someone romantically, it means that a woman could worry she will appear desperate without viewing the same behaviour in a man as desperate. It’s a bit like this – if men are the ones who are expected to make the first move, how desperate does a woman have to be to subvert that norm and make the first move herself? If she’s making the first move, it must be because no other guys want to make the first move with her….and of course the only reason a guy wouldn’t make the first move is if he’s not interested. Normally men make the first move. It’s only women who’ve been summarily rejected that make the first move, because no one will approach her.

            Or at least, that’s the perception…that’s how a lot of women I know feel. I think it’s complete bollocks, personally. I’m just trying to explain how a woman might think she’d be desperate in approaching but doesn’t view men who approach her as desperate.

            • John D says:

              Not to mention if she makes the first move (and goes above and beyond the comfort zone of other women, she may be viewed as a threat by other women for having something in her dating arsenal they don’t) then women (or men) may be calling her a slut.

              And if she gets turned down, she is now a loser slut.

            • That’s a good point, John D. I was trying to put myself into that situation and be honest about how I would act. I would definitely be afraid of what all of the other women were thinking even moreso than the man I might approach. I would definitely walk away feeling like everyone was looking at me as a loser slut. I have made first moves privately and in the physical sense of things, but there’s something about a bar situation full of other girls that would keep me to myself.

            • John D says:

              Honestly, I originally came onto these boards to argue. However, I have grown up a little too and have a lot more empathy for women and their straight jacket than I did before.

              The biggest hang-up I have is that women don’t see that men are just as bound to their role.
              Whereas women are shamed and castigated for taking action, men are shamed and castigated for NOT taking action (walking away from a fight, not adhering strictly to the male role to self-sacrifice for others).

              What seems like a lot more freedom of men’s choices (to women) are not in actuality the case. It’s just flipped. Since men’s actions (whether to initiate, with women, propose, buck for promotions, etc..) are heralded and inaction shamed (look at how little care and sympathy male combat vets w/ptsd get, or homeless or depressed men get) women think that men are free to do whatever the hell they want, which isn’t the case.

              When a man lacks the thick skin to initiate and makes an awkward advance (or doesn’t make and advance) he is shamed for being “creepy” or a “perv”.

              I wish everybody could start seeing things are NOT greener on the other side of the fence–only different.

          • Yea I know. I wasn’t *really* surprised because I know that many women would never even consider approaching a guy. For the record I got hit on by one girl but I turned her down because I didn’t like the way she approached me.

            I just think it was kind of ridiculous that most of those girls were probably looking to meet guys and saw that there were only a few of us very eligible bachelors 😉 but they still refused to make the first move.

            Like what’s my motivation to chase after these chicks when there are so freakin many of them?

            • “For the record I got hit on by one girl but I turned her down because I didn’t like the way she approached me.” This is interesting. This is why a lot of women turn down men. Until every one is approaching their fair share (I for one have approached about 75% of the time) things will stay this jacked up.

            • To clarify, this girl came over and gave me a glowstick and then told me to go give it back to another girl. Then the second girl started telling me that the first girl really wanted to talk to me.

              Me: “She looks busy talkin to that guy.”
              Girl #2: “Do you really *want* her to be talking to him??”
              Me: “I don’t really care.”

              Girl #2 freaked out and ran over to get her friend

              Seriously, don’t play games. If she had just walked up and said hi I probably would have been interested.

            • Couldn’t agree more.

            • Sounds like a female attempt at PUA. :)

            • I’m glad you and Julie agree.

              Difference being however if two guys were doing this it would be PUA or Game and be derided but in this case its just “playing games” and is considered nowhere near as taboo.

            • John Anderson says:

              A woman once sent her cousin (who was a guy) to let me know that she was interested in me. After I told him that I would be interested, she came over and introduced herself. I think that women don’t feel comfortable making the initial contact and so they cover it as something else. Women aren’t as used to handling rejection so they send an advanced scout.

            • Collin says:

              I wish I had that sort of luxury!

            • “For the record I got hit on by one girl but I turned her down because I didn’t like the way she approached me. ”

              And now she’s probably one of the many women who think that, because she got turned down once, guys don’t like it when women approach them.

              Funny isn;t it?

            • Man we internalize waaaaaaay too much. And also need lessons all of us on how to flirt, apparently.

            • I really hope not. She was a cute girl, she just didn’t show enough interest. In this modern day “rape-culture” with girls “creep-shaming” left and right to try to improve their social value, I rarely hit on girls. And especially with the huge amount of single women my age and the scarce number of eligible men, the onus is really on them.

              I just don’t think they see it that way 😉

      • John D says:

        Sarah writes:
        “I made the roller coaster comment, but I wasn’t saying that women see men as roller coasters, I was saying that EVERYBODY wants fun and excitement in their lives. So do men!! Why do men often prefer hot girls who are manipulative psychos over boring, stable, nice, but not-so-hot girls?”

        I agree with Jimmy. Men prefer hot girls because it fires the pleasure centers of our brains to look at, converse with, caress, kiss, have sex with and orgasm with beautiful women more than simply cute, fair, average, or below average women.

        I remember reading an article about a test that was supposed to be about memory in which brain scans were don while subjects looked at different pictures.

        They found that men looking at pictures of beautiful women had brain scans similar to heroine addicts getting a fix.

        In other words the attractive factor is her beauty, not the woman’s bitchiness or manipulation.

        The reverse seems to be true of a significant portion of women–the attractive factor is the actually jerkiness, not any physical attribute.

        Of course not every woman preferse jerks. However, I would surmise that even those women fantasize about jerks.

        I just watched a Dr. Oz show about the phenomonal explosion of a 3rd rate internet only book on amazon that has caught a firestorm of interested women. 50 shades of grey.

        This book is about a manipulative cruel guy who sexually dominates a woman, assaults her self esteem, separates her from her friends and family and yet women are devouring this book.

        Even more saner women who refuse to date jerks, still fantasize about them.
        From what I have seen of men. Men do NOT prefer relationship rollercoasters. They *tolerate* that behavior to varying degrees based on redeeming characteristics from the partner (usually but not always beauty), but they don’t seem to fantasize about being toyed with or manipulated or tricked the way women do (and even the a great many of the saner women seem to do this–romance novels are still the highest selling genre of books).

        • I read 50 Shade of Gray, well, about 2/3 if it (its really poorly written) and the guy is actually very kind and nurturing toward the female character, despite the fact that he’s a “dom” sexually.

          • And just to be clear, I think it ‘s a stupid book. But I don’t think it’s evidence that “women like jerks” because the guy in the book is not a jerk. Why this book has caught on with so many women is an interesting question (I couldn’t get past the atrocious writing) but I don’t think you can boil it down to jerks vs. non-jerks. But go read it though and draw your own conclusions!

            • John D says:

              I haven’t read the book, but in the doctor Oz episode there was a feminist detractor who stated the male character exhibited all the classical relationship techniques of a serial abuser (i.e. cutting her off from friends & family, under-cutting her self esteem etc..).

              I am going by that detractor’s enterpretation of the book.
              I’m not necessarily going to argue what percentage of women like jerks. And I don’t have any clear scientific evidence, however there does seem to be a strong subset of women who are as addicted to jerks (regardless of the jerks physical traits–in other words they don’t tolerate the jerkiness because he’s a hot guy, they are attracted to the jerky qualities themselves) as most men are to beauty.

              I mean, come on. There is evidence everywhere.

            • Well as I said in a previous comment, some people are addicted to adrenaline. Guys with “jerky” qualities can be thrilling to be around, unfortunately, because of their mystery, excitement, and the sense of challenge. There are also women who have emotional problems and seek out self destructive relationships. There are women who grew up with dads who were jerks so they are repeating a childhood pattern. There are women who love drama in relationships.

              Also, as I’ve said in several comments, what many “nice guys” think women want actually comes across all wrong. I mean, imagine if you had a co-worker who was always telling you how wonderful you are, no matter what you did (even if you knew you had done a crappy job on something); who wanted to hang out with you all the time; who constantly did you favors without asking for anything in return; who never gave an opinion or took any initiative about anything … I mean, what would you think of that person as a fellow employee? Kind of weird and annoying?

              Re 50 Shades of Gray: well I think you have to read it before drawing a conclusion. The male character was not what I expected. I wouldn’t call him a jerk. He is super exciting and mysterious, and also rich, and he’s completely in lust with the female character and they have a lot of hot sex. I think that’s the appeal. Of course, I didn’t finish the book so maybe he gets jerker near the end.

            • I’m not necessarily asking for a defense of the rules of attraction for (a good chunk) of women, but an admission that it is the case.

              Men as a gender take a lot of knocks for their addiction to beauty. I’m not going to defend it or judge it–it just is.

              Same for women. Let’s just admit that the rules for attraction of women are behavior rather than looks and this can be just as self-destructive to women, as addiction to looks is for men.

              My point is that you’re right we shouldn’t put women on a pedestal. One of the ways to do that is to admit that women have just as hard a time keeping it in their pants (or outright worshipping a man–whether he is deserving or not) when the *right* criteria to meet her attraction rules happens by.

              For a very great deal of women this is for men to be jerky. I don’t have the link handy, but I remember an article detailing a study showing that women respond positively in questionairres about the dark triad traits in men.

              The dark triad is:
              Machiavellianism, narcissism, and psychopathy. The simple fact is that (a great deal of) women desire men who break rules, think themselves superior and manipulate to get what they want.

              I’m not trying to beat up on women (necessarily). I’m just saying let’s be honest about the rules of attraction for a great deal of women and how that holds them back from true happiness as much as meekness holds a great deal of men back from true happiness.

              In my estimation, women achieve much higher rates of happiness when they are able to over-ride their baser instincts and steer clear of men who they are very attracted to, but are not LTR material.

              Similarly, men need to over-ride their fear and realize the girls they like are mere humans (and in many cases likely to be more fraught with issues and hangups than they are), or that if they get turned down the whole venue of people are not going to be pointing and laughing like some high school movie.

              Unfortunately, I think the culture and advertising in America is probably the least conducive to mature mate selection.

              The destruction of marriage thanks to the divorce industry has turned America into a cesspool of obedience to base instincts for both sexes.

              It kind of sucks for everybody. And there doesn’t seem to be much empathy for the other side.

              It seems incredibly hurtful for some women (and I’m not saying you do this, but I have seen this) to say (in defense of their own actions) well if these “nice guys” are really so nice they wouldn’t be so judgemental and hung up on sex, so they are getting what they deserve.

              In other words women who date jerks are rationalizing their behavior by saying the nice guys are assholes in sheeps clothing, INSTEAD OF admitting that like men dating very beautiful but b1tchy women, they are a slave to their baser desires.

            • Soooooo close to being problematic, and then you had to go and use a bunch of qualifiers, John (a lot of women, many women, some men, etc). Thanks for making it so I can’t rant and rave about generalizations about women. 😉 lol.

              Alright so for the serious bit: I think a lot of people (gay, straight, male, female, whatever) like mates who are a bit rebellious. So I think one of the ways that manifests is in some women picking ass-hatty men…because being ass-hatty is going against social norms. There’s also the fact that a lot of people think that they can change their mates…or that their mates won’t be as ass-hatty to them because they’re in love. And, again, that goes for both genders. And that’s not even getting into the psychological problems that come along with a truly abusive relationship. Anyway, I think that the studies that show that women like jerks are just scratching the surface (assuming those studies are valid at all).

              As for men and women overriding their baser desires…well I don’t think that’s quite a good idea either. I think it’s good to recognize our baser desires, and understand them…and then figure out whether they’re self-destructive or not. And if they are self-destructive then work on not engaging in those behaviours. But to just flat out try to ignore and override them isn’t much of a solution.

              And finally, as for the idea that women who date jerks are just rationalizing with the – nice guys are really ass-hats underneath – well…I know plenty of people (women and men) who are un-trusting enough to really believe that. So I wouldn’t say that it’s all rationalization. Sometimes people actually do have that bad an opinion of human nature.

            • Actually John I’m very positive about nice guys. I’m a pretty geeky girl, I live in Silicon Valley, and I know dozens of nice guys who never seem to get girlfriends. Most of them are frustrated, sad and confused about it. I don’t agree with the idea that they are all selfish jerks in sheep’s clothing. I think sometimes on the Interwebs there is a tendency for women bloggers and commenters to get angry at the constant complaints from male bloggers and commenters that “women only like jerks, you b@tiches, wah” and they turn it around and accuse nice guys of not being that nice. None of this gets us anywhere. I think it’s a vast over-simplification about what drives attraction. I’m not even sure it’s that easy to divide all guys into “nice guys” and “jerks”. Richard Dawkins calls this the error of the dichotomous mind. It’s a human tendency to want to divide things into absolute categories, but it’s a mistake to think that those categories have an inherent reality. Most people are far more complex.

              The point I’ve been trying to make in all my comments is that nice guys don’t have to be jerks to attract women. They DO need to take ownership of whatever personal qualities and behavior they have that are getting in the way of their success with women, for example, falling for the first women who shows the slightest interest and then suffocating her with attention (I have encountered this reaction quite a few times from geekynmale friends, and I call it “puppy dog syndrome”). Another problem is that many stereotypical “nice guys” seem conflicted about their sexuality and have difficulty presenting themselves to women as sexual beings. This leads the “nice guys” to waste a lot of time in non-sexual relationships with women who never consider them to be potential sexual partners.

              I would also tell women who are unhappy with their love life that they need to take ownership of whatever emotional baggage is causing them to select men who treat them poorly. Maybe it’s psychological issues from an abusive childhood, maybe it’s a desire for excitement and risk to distract from personal problems or issues, maybe they need to unlearn assumptions about what a “real man” is supposed to be like, maybe they have low self esteem.

              I think it’s also interesting that you say women should override their baser instincts that drive their attraction, but men do not have to override baser instincts that drive THEIR attraction, men only should override their fear. So it is okay if men follow their baser instincts (I.e., for physical attraction) but not okay if women follow their baser instincts (I.e. for men who are confident, powerful etc.) That seems a little hypocritical. Why not just say that all individuals would be better off understanding what drives them so they can make appropriate choices, if the choices they are making are always leading them to unhappiness. It’s a personal choice.

            • “Another problem is that many stereotypical “nice guys” seem conflicted about their sexuality and have difficulty presenting themselves to women as sexual beings.”

              I hear this a lot, but no one ever says what it is. How, exactly, are you open and presenting yourself as a sexual person without being called a creep or being considered too forward, or too aggressive, or presumptuous, or any other number of things. This is one of the problems with feminism. Feminism persecutes men and basically tells us that we are not, under any circumstances, allowed to present as a sexual individual unless a woman has already explicitly made that acceptable. With that said, I don’t even know what that entails.

              Additionally, your puppy dog syndrome makes sense when you have someone who has been so completely starved for affection. What do you think you would do if you didn’t have a drink of water for 3 days? You would drink water until you got sick. Now, what do you think you would do if you had been completely starved of affection for a decade?

        • Also, my point about roller coasters is that NOBODY likes to be in a relationship that is BORING. Excitement can be positive or negative but many people prefer negative excitement over no excitement at all, though positive excitement is better, it is often hard to find.

    • John D says:

      Soulite writes:
      “A whole lot of them sound like you really do want to be objects that get acted upon; like they expect men to come along and make their boring little lives into some grand adventure.”

      It’s interesting that you mention that. In Steve Byrne’s Byrne Identity concert he talks about all the disney princess movies that basically teach girls they don’t have to look for love “love will come find your ass”.

      The whole concert is pretty funny.

  14. Wirbelwind says:

    Problem is how people define “exciting” and “fun”. For some it’s fun to read a good book, go on a ride or sightseeing; for others it’s heavy drinking, “partying” and doing things that only professional stunt man should do.
    Better date people with similar tastes, background and temperament or you risk a lot of pain.
    Of all kinds.

  15. Yea, I mean I’ve treated women with respect and decency my entire life and I’ve had wonderful success with them. But I’m no pushover. If a woman crosses the line, we’re done. That said I think disrespect and teasing are totally different things. You need playful banter and to be honest it doesn’t hurt to have a little mystery to you.

    I think more often than not the term “nice guy” gets confused with “spineless.” You can still be a kind person and treat women with decency without sacrificing your self-respect and values. If you asked my exes they’d probably tell you that I’m a really nice guy, but they respect me just like I respect them.

  16. wellokaythen says:

    Excellent response right off the bat: why are self-defined “nice guys” attracted to women who are not attracted to them? The question may be more about what’s going on in his head than what’s going on inside women’s heads.

    I suspect this may be one of those things that’s pretty gender neutral – all sorts of people chase after other people who are not good to them or no good for them. I’m guessing the letter writer knows plenty of women interested in nice guys, but he is just not attracted to those women, for whatever reason.

    The fact that the LW says “all” and “always” and “never” suggests that this is an emotional appeal, not really an attempt to understand objectively why people behave the way that they do. The subtext seems to be: “what’s wrong with me?”

    Or, if you’re looking for an obvious flip answer to the question: emotional drama makes the sex hotter. That’s why.

    • Wirbelwind says:

      Well, I agree with you, even though it’s kinda sad.
      I always thought emotional drama is like a burning forest’s beauty: it’s kinda nice to watch the flames in TV when you are far, far away; less so when you know it’s near; and it’s, to put it mildly, no fun when the fire is on your doorstep.

  17. Just for the record, Nice Girls are hot but nice doesn’t mean shy, it means kind.

    Extrapolate something from that.

    • Shy can also come off as bitchy and cold, to put that one out there. I’m shy and it takes me a while to warm up to people. People tend to think I’m trying to “act all that” or above it all. I just get nervous and awkward in many social situations unless it’s a very familiar situation, a specific one, or there’s been drinking.

  18. “Nice” is not exceptional. “Nice” is barely a descriptor – it’s a bucket term that basically says, “satisfactory but unremarkable.”

    “Nice” is just something I expect from a potential mate – and I think many women would agree. It’s a quality we value, but it’s not one we go looking for…because what is there to look for? Starting out with “nice” as our top qualifier doesn’t exactly narrow the field much. Instead, we look for, and are attracted to, guys who are interesting, and hope they are also nice.

    Don’t think of yourself as competing with the jerks; they’ve got their own market cut out for them. You’re competing with all the other nondescript nice guys. If “nice” is the best thing you have to say about yourself, if you think it’s your most attractive quality, and if it’s how you advertise yourself… sorry, you’re just not going to stand out from the crowd. Continue being nice, but find something else to hang your hat on, or be forever a wallflower.

    • Yes, it is so important to have passions in life that don’t involve “hanging around you and hoping I get noticed.” If you are a little shy and geeky, well, work on having cool hobbies. I’ve known many “nice guys” who still get chicks. Their passions (thinking about several guys I know in particular) have included things like repairing old electric guitars and selling them to collectors, organizing charity bike rides, ballroom dancing, improv comedy, and teaching classes on New Age “healing touch” (now there’s a way to get close to people!) It doesn’t really matter what catches your fancy, just do it with passion. Focus on developing yourself and the things you love to do. Don’t do it to impress people, din’t be arrogant about it, do it because you enjoy it, whatever it is. That will naturally make you someone who others (including women!) want to get to know.

      • Good point, Sarah.

        To embellish a bit on my first post…

        In the marketing world we talk about having a Differentiator. When you’re trying to sell the same product that all your competitors are trying sell – paper towels, say – you can’t just go out there saying “My paper towels tear off and clean up messes!” Because that’s just what’s expected of them, and that’s something consumers assume any of the other paper towel brands can do too. Instead, you create a paper towel so soft you can blow your nose on it (Viva) or so absorbent you’ll never waste extras cleaning up a mess (Bounty) or one that doesn’t tear even when it’s wet (Brawny), and THAT’S what you sell yourself on. Without that branding, you’re just another roll of paper towels.

        So I come back to my original point, Nice Guys: Find something to say about yourself other than that you’re nice. Think long and hard about the kind of “buyer” you want to attract, and make yourself appealing to her. Build a brand for yourself.

        • That still leaves the problem of having to push your product on someone and avoiding being too pushy a salesman so as to not make the potential consumer uncomfortable. Unfortunately, as men we can’t just put our product on the shelf and expect it to sell…

          • I’m workin on revolutionizing the market. I just post up and look bad. It’s going much slower than anticipated.

          • You shouldn’t be thinking of it as selling a product, though. The branding analogy just means that you don’t just want to rely on a common quality (“niceness”) as your distinguishing feature. But the point is develop yourself for YOU, first and foremost. Learn who YOU are and focus on doing the things YOU love.

            It is important to be ethical, compassionate, and kind. I don’t think it’s as important to always be nice. Being “nice” is all about pleasing other people. It’s about burying your own needs to serve others. Instead of worrying about being nice, think about how to forge your own path during the limited time we have on this planet. If you are comfortable in your own skin, if you know who you are and are comfortable with your own values and passions, you will attract others like planets circle the sun.

            • Well, everyone here knows I’m not comfortable in my own skin, lol. My opinion of myself is anything but glowing. Unfortunately, much of that hinges on my serial failure with women. Much of the value men have as men in society is how they have done with women. You are branded the biggest sort of loser by every group if you’re a man who has been unable to establish a relationship with a woman.

              It is very difficult to have confidence and comfort in your own skin when the whole world has rejected the notion that you have any value as a human being.

            • I don’t know what to tell you Collin except you have to break out of that mind set. You have to fight against it every moment you are alive. I’ve read many of your posts I know that you’ve been through a hell of a lot. I had a crappy childhood too, though probably not as bad as yours. Still, it was bad. There was a lot of verbal and emotional abuse. It is a tough legacy to overcome. I tell myself every day that I’m lucky to be alive because I could have easily taken another path: severe mental illness, hopeless substance abuse, suicide — all common in my family. Your family was sick too, it sounds like. You have to look at where you are, given where you started. You are probably like one in a million. By all rights you should be curled up an fetal position on a street corner. But you aren’t. You’ve already achieved the hardest task you will ever have, and that’s surviving. Now you have to start living. I know it’s hard.

            • Collin says:

              You’re far more optimistic than I. It is certainly true that given everything, I should probably be dead or a homeless drug addict. With that said, it is hard to look at “not as big a failure as I could be” and see success. I have used the phrase surviving is the hardest part, but that doesn’t change much of anything. It’s really almost impossible going it all alone in life, and that is the fate I have received, unfortunately. Despite all efforts, it seems that I am destined to spend my entire life alone. On the bright side, once I finally accept that I will be alone forever, I can forget about my longing for human interaction and just focus on making money.

            • I don’t think you are destined to be alone. It sounds like you are someone with many challenges but you are working on yourself and continuing to grow. Eventually you will look back on this part of your life from a better place. I know you don’t believe that now so you can tell me I’m wrong. :-)

            • Collin says:

              Oh, I believe you. It is just that yesterday would not have been fast enough!

            • Noooo, Collin…you’re not destined to be alone. No such thing (unless you really want it). Good luck to you. The bitches who turn you down don’t know what they’re missing out on. 😛

            • Collin says:

              I’ll take your word for it!

            • Mike L says:

              “Much of the value men have as men in society is how they have done with women.”

              I’ve seen this claimed repeatedly, and I just don’t understand where it comes from. Maybe this was the case in high school (MAYBE), but as an adult? No way.

              Maybe I just hang out with the wrong crowd, but last I checked a man’s status had way more to do with his education and job than with his love life.

            • It’s the case with the younger generations. A man’s worth as a 20 something is defined by how many women he’s bedded and how much he’s done with said women.

            • Mike L says:

              Steph,

              I’m 28, and I really don’t think this is the case.

              Like I said, it very well might have been in high school, but at some point everything changed. By junior year of college, what kind of a job you were going to have after graduation matter a ton (e.g. Did you get that consulting/finance job, or are you stuck doing sales somewhere?) or alternatively where you got into grad school really mattered.

              I can remember hearing whispers about acceptance letters being spoken with great deference. By contrast, I can’t even remember someone’s “number” being mentioned after freshman year.

              I’m just not sure this isn’t a stereotype about men that’s masquerading as “male culture.”

          • John Anderson says:

            @ Collin and Jimmy

            Let me give you guys some of my 35 or so years of experience not that I’m a player, but I’ve been around. It’s easier to approach women and women are more receptive when you’re having fun. Also if you’re having a good time, you’re not really that concerned if you get rejected anyway. Kind of like using liquid courage (alcohol), but you keep your faculties. If you don’t feel comfortable go out with a group of friends. Maybe to a sports bar. You can talk to women about the game or go to an art show if you like art. Don’t necessarily go for the super gorgeous girl. You would be surprised what having a girlfriend or even having sex would do for a guy’s confidence and many women find confidence sexy. Some women are even more attracted to a man, who has a girlfriend. It’s like a competition thing with some. You never know that average looking woman could be the most wonderful person you ever met.

            There was a woman I thought was pretty. In part because she never swore and the meanest thing I heard her say was that something someone did was stupid, just the action, not the person. It’s a very endearing quality. I never knew she didn’t wear makeup. I just assumed that she was pretty so she did. Kate was a friend’s sister’s friend. One day my friend’s sister threw an Avon party and since she was having food, we decided to crash. People who know me know I can’t resist free food. Since Kate didn’t wear makeup, she was the model. She was drop dead gorgeous. I was frozen for about 5 minutes, just speechless. What you see doesn’t always accurately reflect what’s there.

        • I’d called “peacocking” in the game community. Wear a purple shirt or a watch the size of a baseball or a freakin robin hood hat.

          • I wear purple all the time because it is my favorite color. All that does is make people think I’m gay. =(

            • Well that’s a stereotype. Purple is awesome–one of my two favorite colors. :)

            • John Anderson says:

              @ Collin

              Oh crap, I guess Goodwill is going to get a lot of purple clothes. :)

            • Collin says:

              Nah. They’re far too nice and expensive to be giving to good will. I have an excellent wardrobe. Unfortunately, being very well dressed plus looking not-so-masculine generally means that everyone in the world instantly assumes I am gay.

      • AnonymousDog says:

        This whole ‘have a passion about something and you will attract women’ thing drives me nuts. Some passions will bring you into contact with like-minded people, and some won’t, no matter how passionate you are about them.

  19. Sometimes I think some Nice Guys could use a nice, tall, tasty glass of “Dude, she ain’t all that!”.

  20. If you know who you are and what you have going for yourself, that friendship crap goes out the window.
    My concern is why would a man want to try and attract a women from a submissive emotional position in the 1st place. As sexist as it sounds I still think women reserve the right to be the “chick” in the relationship. Emotions are stupid.

  21. Well said, my friend.

  22. “So it’s better to be an adventurous nice guy, rather than a boring one.”

    WHAM! That’s how it should be said! Best way I’ve heard it summed up in one sentence.

    The “she said” also made a great point about feeling needed. It’s important to realize how dangerous it is to go after guys who are “in need of repair”. While guys don’t have as much of this danger, we still need to keep our eyes out, too.

  23. wellokaythen says:

    Frustration and anger often lead to simplistic thinking. One example of simplistic thinking is the false dichotomy. One example of a false dichotomy is when someone reduces all men down to two supposedly opposite categories: nice guys or selfish jerks. In fact there are men who are both and men who are neither.

    The world does not really follow high school stereotypes. Men do not actually divide into “arrogant jocks” and “nice guy nerds,” however much we want life to be that simple. If you’re trying to go back to re-do high school or you’re drawing lessons about women from adolescent experience, then you have to let go of that stuff. If you’re still in high school, bear in mind that it’s a very peculiar social context, not necessarily a good lesson about the real world.

    I know it sounds like some deep, meaningful wisdom to reduce all men down to only two categories, but really it’s not. Sure, you can look at men through that lens and find all sorts of prejudiced anecdotal evidence to support that theory, but you’d have to ignore a lot of other things. For one thing, being jealous of another man who’s with “your woman” is hardly conducive to an objective analysis of his character. Of course he’s not going to be as good a person as you are, because he doesn’t love her the way that I do. No one could love her as much as you do, right?

    • Well said on the ‘false dichotomy,’ between nice guy and selfish jerk, wellokaythen. It really makes men seem one-dimensional. It’s rarely as simple as that.

      One thing I find interesting is the men who consider themselves ‘nice guys’ and start to put on airs of being ‘assholes,’ based on the behavior they assume is ‘assholish’ in order to get women. So are they still ‘nice guys?’ Are they then ‘assholes’ because of their behavior…or does the intended deception make them actual ‘assholes’ in the end? Was that the endgame then?

      • John Anderson says:

        @ Aya

        There are guys who put on a “nice guy” persona to get women because they think it’s what women want. I don’t doubt guys would do it with the “bad boy” persona too. I don’t know that deception itself is sufficient to make someone an asshole. In the case of a 44 year old, true. A 20 year old might simply be foolish and not malicious. In the end, you’ll never be happy being someone else and relationships are work. If you’re not willing to put in the time or effort, it won’t work out “nice guy”, “bad boy”, or something in between. Relationships are compromise too.

  24. Eoghan says:

    There is a problem with the terms I think, if these nice guy weren’t trying to get women to own up to liking “jerks” and “assholes” they would make more progress with what it is they are trying to say.

    I think that they could say that women can often prefer a male with some natural dominance and directness about him to a male that uses more covert female type relationship getting techniques such as being nice and helpful in order to initiate a relationship, and they would be more accurate and more women would agree with them.

  25. I think it’s more about how we define nice guys and the double standards we place on the genders…why is being nice enough for guys but not when it comes to chicks?

    “When was the last time a dude got hard for nice?” http://www.somethingshedated.com/2012/03/do-nice-guys-finish-last.html

    • Hold up isn’t there an issue now that a lot of women have with men who will take the slightest kind gesture and read something into it that is not there? I know I’ve heard plenty of women complain about guys that took a smile, a gimme gift on a holiday, or a simple “hello” as some weird confirmation that she must be ready to bone.

      Hell it seems like being nice is all it takes for a guy to get interested in a woman.

      • “When was the last time a dude got hard for nice? Girls have to be fit, healthy and adventurous…but ya know…all the while maintaining a kind of fresh faced makeup-less beauty that allows for no faults of DNA. Boys want witty conversation, and upbeat personalities, smart opinions but polite decorum. They want the Princess without the baggage, the President without the power-trip and the Pornstar without the career…they want the pussy without the problems.”

        Great quote, especially the first line. And yet, I’m often hearing on here that women are the ones with the overly high standards….

        • Great quote, especially the first line. And yet, I’m often hearing on here that women are the ones with the overly high standards….
          Simple. Both are true and both actually happen. This is one of those cases where evidence of one happening doesn’t indicate that the other is not happening. Just the same way as boys and girls are raised when it comes to intergender hitting.

          A lot of boys were raised on the strict value of “never hit a girl for any reason, but its okay for girls to hit you”. A lot of girls were raised on the strict value of “its okay for a boy to hit you, but you should never hit him back”. Depending on culture, location, and one’s parents both of these phenomenon happen and the fact that one happens does not prove that the other does not.

        • John Anderson says:

          @ Aya

          ” Great quote, especially the first line. And yet, I’m often hearing on here that women are the ones with the overly high standards….”

          I’ve heard many people even women (many who warn their boyfriends and husbands about straying) state that it’s easier for women to get laid than men. If that’s true, women may have higher standards.

          That might be just the ideal. Like when young girls dream of marriage with the tall, handsome, powerful and successful man, who will rescue them from danger and shower them with material wealth like the big home.

      • John Anderson says:

        @ Danny

        “Hell it seems like being nice is all it takes for a guy to get interested in a woman.”

        I don’t doubt that this happens, but we don’t see it so much because women are taught to be passive in relationships. If women were more aggressive, many women might misinterpret my natural friendliness for flirtation and act upon it. That would indeed bring visibility to the possibility. Being very uncomfortable around sexually aggressive women, you just gave me nightmares and that ain’t easy, since it’s the morning and I’m awake.

        • I don’t doubt that this happens, but we don’t see it so much because women are taught to be passive in relationships.
          I’m talking about before relationships. I’m talking about randomly crossing paths on the street, working in the next cubicle over, next to each other in line at the market.

          I’m told that women are taught that they must be nice and cheery at all times and that that nice and cheerniss is often mistaken asn an invitation of interest.

          I was just questioning what was said about above about how being nice isn’t enough for a woman to get a man’s attention. From what I understand (from women themselves) being nice is actually too much.

          Mind you I’m not saying that its right or anything. Just that it happens.

    • Jonathan G says:

      “I think it’s more about how we define nice guys and the double standards we place on the genders…why is being nice enough for guys but not when it comes to chicks?”

      Confirmation bias.

      Did you know that surveys of human sexuality in American culture find that approximately 25% of men have 75% of the sex? And the median number of life-time sex partners for a man is seven? (That means that half of men have seven or fewer sex partners in their entire lives.) The image of the serial womanizer banging everything that moves applies to only a small cohort of men. They can get away with this because they are either so naturally hot that women flock to them, or they put a lot of effort into their “game.” I heard explicit confirmation of this in a public radio program about hook-up culture on college campuses in which they interviewed a group of young women in a bar about how hard it is to find a boyfriend on a campus with a 55% female to 45% male gender ratio, and one of them sniffed, “…and only, like, 20% of guys are even worth talking to in the first place!”

      I see plenty of evidence out there in online forums for the myth that each woman is a unique and special snowflake, totally unlike any other. While I agree that each woman is unique and special in some way, that notion really does not apply to women’s preferences in men. In general, all women pursue the same fundamental traits in men. And one of those traits, interestingly, is social influence and desirability. Think about that– one of the powerfully attractive things about a man is that he is attractive to other women!

      The upshot? On the level of whole populations, all the women want to get one of the men toward the upper end of the (self-reinforcing) attractiveness pyramid. The men toward the top have many, many choices of potential partners, and therefore, they can afford to get picky. As you put it, they CAN get the pussy without the problems. (Or have enough potential partners lined up that they think they can.)

      As an individual woman, (generalized over all the men you encounter in a lifetime) you’ll pick the men toward the the upper end of the attractiveness pyramid, too. Since those men can afford to get picky and hold out for the perfect woman, you will find that, “All men have incredibly high standards.” But it’s not all men, it’s just confirmation bias.

      (Incidentally, there you have it, the flip side of the “nice guy” who only goes after the “9’s and 10’s” and wonders why he can’t get a girlfriend.)

      • But most men are attracted to the same fundamental traits in women as well. In my experience, 80% of the men pursue 20% of the women and the same is true of women (80% pursuing 20%). I’ve read articles that say that a majority of college women aren’t a part of hookup culture. If you are not at the top of the pyramid, you will have trouble dating.

        • Collin says:

          I have to object to what you’ve said. I imagine that even an average looking woman will have far less trouble dating than even a pretty good looking man. For example, even a mediocre-looking woman on a dating website is going to get TONS of messages. Like I’ve said before, I have a complete profile and I have gotten 7 VISITS in 9 months. I have received 0 messages.

          • You are right, that is clearly the case on dating sites. Women (particularly young wonen) get swamped with responses. Whether that translates into greater success at finding partners, I don’t know. Women reject a lot of available men, that’s very true. Men are also rejecting a lot of available women. It just seems to me sometimes like there is this large cohort of lonely people who are all chasing a dream.

            • Collin says:

              Of course it is going to translate into greater success! It’s like in sales. More leads == more opportunities == more sales. Are men rejecting a lot of available women? It is almost impossible for me to find examples of men turning down women.

            • It happens more than you think. I’ve asked guys out a few times in my life, and I’ve been turned down. And I don’t think I’m hideous, but I’m fairly average.

            • Collin says:

              Well, I’m supposedly pretty attractive… or so I’ve been told by numerous older women, and I’ve always been rejected. It’s true I get a lot of women looking at me on the street, but I don’t think that really indicates that they find me attractive.

            • Miss Information says:

              Yeah, and I’m a 98 lb. librarian/ballerina, who can cook like a demon, tuck her ankles behind her ears, check her own oil, and stop traffic in Paris. I also haven’t been on a date in years. There are no hard and fast rules governing these things.

            • John Anderson says:

              @ Miss Information

              You might want to try asking someone out. A lot of guys will see how wonderful you are and just assume that you must be dating someone. Other guys will be intimidated by your confidence. Even more guys will think you’re out of their league so why bother getting rejected.

            • Miss Information says:

              @ John
              That’s sweet, but of all the reasons for my non-existent love life, I don’t think that overwhelming fabulousness is really one of them. I do get asked. My dates forget to show. Guys also forget my name, my phone number, their intentions to e-mail (I’m a very forgettable person).

              My point isn’t woe is me, why can’t I get a date. I know why perfectly well: jerks like me, I don’t like jerks; I like sweethearts, sweethearts aren’t interested in me (n.b. sweethearts not “nice guys” because there’s a difference). Attraction, love, and sex aren’t mathematical formulas. You can’t plug in the values and get a predictable result. It’s not so simple as “women don’t like nice guys”, or “confirmation bias”, or the 20/80 rule. Human beings are predictable in the aggregate, but not in the individual. We all have are own weird and individual sets of predilections and preferences, fears and scars. If you are having trouble getting a date, it’s about you, not about women in general or men in general, but all the things, good and bad, that you are carrying around in your personal baggage. Take ownership of that. It may not improve your love life. It certainly hasn’t done anything for mine, but it may stop all this unholy whinging about how unfair it all is. Life is not fair, anyone who tells you otherwise is selling something (pace Inigo Montoya).

            • PursuitAce says:

              Hey, that’s one of my favorite lines….although I just remember Westley (Cary Elwes) saying that.

        • Jonathan G says:

          Absolutely, Sarah, I totally agree. It’s worked out okay for me, though, since I recently met a woman who works in Silicon Valley and hasn’t found a boyfriend for whatever reason. I think she’s just dandy, though. All those guys just don’t know what they’re missing. :-)

          • John Anderson says:

            @ Jonathan G

            For a while I dated a security specialist who worked in the financial services sector. Since I’m in IT, you’d think we’d be a natural. It might have been a tech’s natural proclivity to seek out the security flaws in a system and a security specialist’s job being to stop that. I’m not saying that you’re not a wonderful catch (why am I feeling like Stiffler), but some of her difficulties may have resulted from her profession. A lot of IT guys are competitive.

  26. assman says:

    “why is being nice enough for guys but not when it comes to chicks?”

    Who said that. Niceness is one of the biggest things we are looking for. I prefer girls who smile, who are nice, who are sweet and who like to laugh. Why exactly do you think Don married Megan? What never ceases us to surprise men is that many women don’t seem to want this. Why exactly do you think Megan married Don?

  27. As a term, the word “nice” is itself quite broad. What makes a guy nice? Many of the qualities about being nice are things that unversally women tend to prefer. Things like being respectful, generally pleasant and warm. The bad boys can certainly display these characteristics. Where you get to the differences is when you enter into personality traits and a man’s responses to certain things. A bad boy might be more of a turn on sexually because his personality involves more confidence, but that confidence might also cause him to think he’s above extending common courtesy to a woman or returning a phone call now and then. A nice guy will maybe come across as less confident or passive so his personality may seem to indicate he is not going to be a good lover or is not as appealing sexually. But that passive nature may make him a better listener, so he is likely to be more in tune with hearing a woman, understanding her and remembering that because he values the importance of her individuality. He might just turn out to be a better lover because he can listen and take mental notes, whereas the bad boy might think whatever he does sexually is going to be great no matter the woman, no matter the situation, and he could suck.

  28. Elgnis says:

    “You, just be your evolved, sharing, giving, communicative self. Eventually you’ll find an amazing woman…”

    How long is “eventually”? I’m 38 and haven’t found any yet, or if I did, they didn’t give me the opportunity to find out they were amazing.

  29. Carl Menger says:

    A couple of problems for nice guys; #1 He thinks he should “Get to know” the girl before making his move, by then nice guy, you’re in the “friend zone”. Also by they time you feel you “know her” well enough to ask her out, one thing you don’t appear is confident. Confidence is the most attractive trait women see in men, and it took you 6 weeks to work up the courage to ask her out. #2 If you’re a “Bad Boy” and she does bad, dirty, nasty things with you, it’s your fault, you’re bad. If you’re a nice guy, she has to own those dirty desires and can’t blame them on you.

    So do you have to be bad? No but you do have to have enough mystery about you that she can spin it in her fantasy life that you are, even if you’re not.

    • Speaking of ‘friend zone,’ as someone who’s put people there (and been put there), I have a few other things to add. Oftentimes, at least for me, there’s been and awkwardness involved. When I get too close to a friend, he starts to almost feel like a brother, and even if the guy is very attractive and confident, there’s a certain point where it starts to feel weird. Also, when a guy puts you on a pedestal, if you’re an insecure girl (like I have been), you feel like you’ll never be able to measure up to the fantasy the ‘nice guy’ has of you. That you’ll somehow disappoint him. You have so much more to lose in this type of situation.

  30. Christopher says:

    Wife in the kitchen, whore in the bedroom. Is that what men want? If we want a relationship, generally no.

    Nice guy to live with, bad boy to f*ck. Is that what women want?

    As always, there’s more to these things than what’s on the surface.

    For example, confidence is attractive to anyone you meet – ‘bad people’ (if there is such a thing) can often be ‘bad’ because they’re thinking of themselves and not considering others. People who don’t care much about what others think aren’t going to struggle in the same way with confidence issues as the ‘nice guy’ who’s jabbering and nervous trying to make a good impression.

  31. Because you have to be a challenge to women, in other words you can’t talk to them everyday or every other day, you have to let them miss you a lot, they always have to be second place to work, career, sports, etc… women aren’t very logical, they want a love story. That story includes you always being out with friends and other women, you never ever txting them. In other words its not about her, its about you, your just being nice enough to let her tag along sometimes…. also on dates, keep it light, keep it funny. No serious talk at all, and do not ever conversate on the phone. The phone is only used to set up appointmens. And never see them more than twice in one week, and every other week, only contact her once that week… do this, I promise you’ll never have a girl problem again….

    • I disagree Jay. I don’t need a challenge. I am busy enough. I don’t want a love story or a fairy tale. That’s terribly unrealistic. I throughly expect anyone who likes me to call me. If all you do is text and then it’s only on occasion, then obviously you don’t like me enough and I haven’t the time for someone who isn’t going to put me first when it’s important. That’s a great way to keep a lot of girlfriends, sexual partners and friends, but not good for a serious long term relationship.

  32. It’s not that women like the bad boys or seek them out. We end up with them sometimes.

    But ask yourself, are you a nice guy? I can’t tell you how many self proclaimed nice guys I have dated(and ask any friend, I have never dated a man for his looks…brains are my thing). In fact, if you are calling yourself a nice guy and wonder why you aren’t banging a supermodel, you might want to return your nice guy card.

    Lets assume for right now you are a nice guy. Do you really want to be dating half the women today? With feminism trying to turn the female populous into men, you really probably don’t. Women are trying to prove their empowerment by sleeping with lots of men so STDs are on the rise.

    If we date bad boys it’s for several reasons.

    1)Confidence: Jerks, Douchbags, and A**holes have a great deal of confidence. We (women) know they won’t be pining at home wondering where we are and if we have run off with the hot guy next door. That goes a long way. That guy who is standing up straight garnering attention ala a true alpha is really sexy.

    2)No Whining: We hate men who whine. That’s almost as great a turn off as pulling your little friend out of your pants in a museum(yes it has happened to me). “Aww, poor me. Why can’t I get a hot girlfriend?” Women want someone to have a baby with, not a man who covers both roles.

    3)Predictability: We know what we are getting into with bad boys.

    • @Lilly..

      I do not regard myself as Mr. Nice. However, I am no bad boy either. I think most men are somewhere in between. Bad boys are probably 20% of men. But, maybe the 80/20 rules applies? They (bad boys) certainly get a disproportionate amount of the action. I think we can all agree on that.

      You said, “We (women) know they won’t be pining at home wondering where we are and if we have run off with the hot guy next door. ”

      Of course!!!! You really don’t care either way. Most bad boys are shtupping you and several other women as well. Most women know this. The guy has lots of options. Since most women are only interested in these kinds of men for short-term sexual relationships or someone to fill a void, him not pining over you is a red herring. Come on Lilly, let’s be honest here.

      As for women having lots of partners, it is their own biz. I have zero interest in such women. I am a very low partner man (less than 7) and I am only interested in similar.

      The bad boys might have the confidence, the c**ks, the swagger blah blah blah. But, we have the $$$$. In America, money talks and bullshit talks!!! Men have gotten wise and simply are no longer interested in long term relationships. There just isn’t much there for us.

      We are never going to enjoy the sex that most women served up to their bad boy lover. So, why enter into marriage or LTRs if she is going to treat you in a manner inferior to her bad boy lover. Thanks but “No Thanks!”

      • Mike Drew says:

        Well said Bro. Women today just don’t know how to treat a men and then complains that they don’t have a good guy. Excuse my french but F*** them. I was treated like crap while growing up because I wasn’t cool enough. Now I drive nice rides and have nice cars. I pick who I want. Ladies if you don’t like what I am saying that is your problem start treating men the way they deserve and maybe one day men will treat you like a women that you should be. Stop trying to be competitive with the men. There is no competition. Men are men and women are women. Know your place. This goes to that 90 percent of women, the other don’t need to worry about it. I apoligize to the real women, this is not toward you only towrd the ones that will respond because they are hurt by the words that I speak.

    • lunacatd says:

      First I appreciate the article, Eli and Josie. The issue though not simple, is well covered here. Maybe part of the problem is that we continue to reduce people to the simplest terms (nice guy, bad boy, drama queen etc) When we life is far more complex.

      “With feminism trying to turn the female populous into men, you really probably don’t. Women are trying to prove their empowerment by sleeping with lots of men so STDs are on the rise.” – Lilly

      Wow, I must have missed that in my weekly Feminist agenda meetings. And I really try hard to pay attention. Will have to go back and check my notes. But seriously, there’s so much wrong with that sentence I had to at least make light of it.

      Lilly, I really wish you took a better look at your sources of information on the topic of Feminism, to say nothing about whether STDs are on the rise or not (which still would have nothing to do with a movement that seeks at it’s most basic point equality for all). A good place to start is http://www.feminism101.com/

      Wishing you all the best

    • @ Lilly:

      “feminism trying to turn the female populous into men”. Um, really? I thought feminism was about equality, justice and empowerment. I see that I’m not the only man reading this article that is calling you out on this rather ridiculous assertion. Check your history. Talk to your mother (or grandmother) and find out what feminism actually is.

    • McCall Jones says:

      Great Stuff, Lilly!

  33. Im gonna say this…WOMEN DON’T REALLY LIKE BAD BOYS. Disagree? Let’s make a comparison. If there is a nice guy who is good at sports, and knows how to dance, takes care of his health, and a bad guy who has the same traits, who do you think wins? The nice guy of course. Oh, but they’re boring and they’re not a challenge. Well ladies, when you date a bad boy, you already know you will get your feelings hurt. Yawnnnnnnn. This means that bad guys are just as boring, if not more! Which one is more than likely to have a good job, the nice guy! I will say this, there are “nice guys” who act nice only to you just to get in your pants, or try to, idk. THOSE AREN’T NICE GUYS
    Look, I am a nice guy who happens to be good at sports,and I treat EVERYBODY with respect, even the ones I don’t care for. That’s the way God wants us all to be. Yeah I was bad up until about 8th grade, when my parents decided that I needed a change. I have girls always talking to me. Too bad I have to tell them I’ve been with the same beautiful woman for 3 YEARS! I think that most girls are talking about “nice guys” who are fat, lazy, or smell bad, because obviously their personalities are good. Nice guys, get out of the house, start taking care of your health, pick up sports, because I seriously doubt that a girl can say no to a nice guy who is athletic! NEVER change to a bad guy! Peace out..

  34. when did they ever?, but many of these type of women are such losers anyway.

  35. Instead of just going for any woman – including the drama queens, and let’s be honest, the hottest hotties you think you can get – why don’t YOU try going for The Nice Girl?

    Because I can assure you, for every Nice Guy who has been overlooked for a Bad Boy, there are just as many Nice Girls that are sick to death of being passed over for their ‘hotter’/more exciting/more dramatic girlfriends …

    • OirishM says:

      The difference being, there is no Nice Girl Syndrome meme.

      It is only men getting unsympathetically slammed for a problem that exists across the board.

  36. Larry Jones says:

    I have a theory as to why women are not into nice guys. (Actually, one could write several pages worth on this, but here is the short of it.) I think the logic goes something like this:
    If you come across as too nice, then she senses that you’re trying too hard to win her approval. And if you’re trying to hard to win her approval, it’s because you’re desperate. And if you are desperate, then it’s because you don’t have much “success”, for lack of a better term, at attracting attractive women. And if you don’t have much success with attractive women, then it’s because you’re either a weirdo, a creep, a stalker or a needy, clingy suffocating loser. And if you are any of those, then she doesn’t want to date you; she only wants to run.

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