A self-proclaimed “nice guy” wonders why women seem to get bored of drama-free love and start looking for trouble.
Originally appeared at She Said He Said
Dear Sexes: Why do women not know how to handle a nice guy, or a guy who always shows a lot of love, and doesn’t disrespect them? In the beginning, they like all that, but then they start disrespecting you and they take advantage of such niceness. Nice guys ended up feeling frustrated because they don’t receive the same love that they give. Is it really true that what women like is drama, and bad guys who disrespect them, don’t call, and don’t show much love, or who they are?
She Said: Whoa, slow your roll there, partner. First, not all women dismiss nice guys. Here’s the crazy thing: I think “nice guys” are often attracted to drama-junkies.
We all go through times in our lives when we live for the drama. And there’s something so appealing about the fighting-fucking-fighting-mellow for three minutes-fighting-fucking cycle. But for too many of us (men and women alike) we fall into a trap of craving intensity as a replacement for true intimacy.
That cycle is really damaging, and it’s really tricky. The fighting and making up feels so intimate, but it’s not true intimacy if it’s so unstable and you’re always unsure of whether there’s going to be a big blow-up or not.
If you keep ending up with woman after woman who seems to crave drama, then it’s time to look at yourself. Sit down and make a list of the top 5 features that have attracted you to the top 5 women in your life. This is your 5 of 5. Feel free to repeat the same words over again in describing them. What you’re looking for are trends.
To look for the warning signs, figure out how each initially-attractive trait eventually turns bad. For instance, I think sometimes “nice guys” (and “caretaker women”) really love helping a woman and sort of crave that sense of being needed. Therefore, they tend to (subconsciously) drift toward women who need more help – as in, women who have a lot of drama (real or created).
And why do we love being with people who need more help? Then we feel indispensable. We feel important. We feel secure. But is it real security? No.
Take a look over that list of 25 traits and see what you can avoid in the future, as well as what you can heal in yourself.
He Said: Okay, are we talking about ALL nice guys, or one particular nice guy? Never mind, that doesn’t matter. Here’s the deal: women do like nice guys, but they also like a little mystery and excitement. So it’s better to be an adventurous nice guy, rather than a boring one. And regardless of how good a communicator you are, don’t share all your life stories in the very beginning. Be a good listener (though don’t be anyone’s therapist), and leave something to the imagination, when it comes her getting to know you. As a guy, it’s more important to have the ability and desire to communicate, rather than actually communicating everything all the time.
Occasionally women get confused with the whole bad boy thing. Some of them think that mystery, excitement, passion, and adventure can only come from a jerk. In reality, sometimes a jerk is just a jerk, and a boring jerk at that! But don’t worry about those neanderthals. You, just be your evolved, sharing, giving, communicative self. Eventually you’ll find an amazing woman, with enough intelligence and healthy self-esteem to realize she wants a rewarding relationship – with a good guy. Just remember my pointers and you’ll do fine!
There is nothing wrong with being a good men. The fact that you are a good man should be enough for women to date you. Let me review with you all these nonsense that the world says about good men. Many women claim that the reasons why they do not want to date good men is because they are boring, they lack confidence, and they seem needy to get into relationship and later have sex. The reason why these men are nice them is because they are looking for sex in exchange of being nice. Bad boys, by contrast, seem… Read more »
I have a theory as to why women are not into nice guys. (Actually, one could write several pages worth on this, but here is the short of it.) I think the logic goes something like this: If you come across as too nice, then she senses that you’re trying too hard to win her approval. And if you’re trying to hard to win her approval, it’s because you’re desperate. And if you are desperate, then it’s because you don’t have much “success”, for lack of a better term, at attracting attractive women. And if you don’t have much success… Read more »
Instead of just going for any woman – including the drama queens, and let’s be honest, the hottest hotties you think you can get – why don’t YOU try going for The Nice Girl?
Because I can assure you, for every Nice Guy who has been overlooked for a Bad Boy, there are just as many Nice Girls that are sick to death of being passed over for their ‘hotter’/more exciting/more dramatic girlfriends …
The difference being, there is no Nice Girl Syndrome meme.
It is only men getting unsympathetically slammed for a problem that exists across the board.
when did they ever?, but many of these type of women are such losers anyway.
Im gonna say this…WOMEN DON’T REALLY LIKE BAD BOYS. Disagree? Let’s make a comparison. If there is a nice guy who is good at sports, and knows how to dance, takes care of his health, and a bad guy who has the same traits, who do you think wins? The nice guy of course. Oh, but they’re boring and they’re not a challenge. Well ladies, when you date a bad boy, you already know you will get your feelings hurt. Yawnnnnnnn. This means that bad guys are just as boring, if not more! Which one is more than likely to… Read more »
It’s not that women like the bad boys or seek them out. We end up with them sometimes. But ask yourself, are you a nice guy? I can’t tell you how many self proclaimed nice guys I have dated(and ask any friend, I have never dated a man for his looks…brains are my thing). In fact, if you are calling yourself a nice guy and wonder why you aren’t banging a supermodel, you might want to return your nice guy card. Lets assume for right now you are a nice guy. Do you really want to be dating half the… Read more »
@Lilly.. I do not regard myself as Mr. Nice. However, I am no bad boy either. I think most men are somewhere in between. Bad boys are probably 20% of men. But, maybe the 80/20 rules applies? They (bad boys) certainly get a disproportionate amount of the action. I think we can all agree on that. You said, “We (women) know they won’t be pining at home wondering where we are and if we have run off with the hot guy next door. ” Of course!!!! You really don’t care either way. Most bad boys are shtupping you and several… Read more »
Well said Bro. Women today just don’t know how to treat a men and then complains that they don’t have a good guy. Excuse my french but F*** them. I was treated like crap while growing up because I wasn’t cool enough. Now I drive nice rides and have nice cars. I pick who I want. Ladies if you don’t like what I am saying that is your problem start treating men the way they deserve and maybe one day men will treat you like a women that you should be. Stop trying to be competitive with the men. There… Read more »
First I appreciate the article, Eli and Josie. The issue though not simple, is well covered here. Maybe part of the problem is that we continue to reduce people to the simplest terms (nice guy, bad boy, drama queen etc) When we life is far more complex. “With feminism trying to turn the female populous into men, you really probably don’t. Women are trying to prove their empowerment by sleeping with lots of men so STDs are on the rise.” – Lilly Wow, I must have missed that in my weekly Feminist agenda meetings. And I really try hard to… Read more »
@ Lilly:
“feminism trying to turn the female populous into men”. Um, really? I thought feminism was about equality, justice and empowerment. I see that I’m not the only man reading this article that is calling you out on this rather ridiculous assertion. Check your history. Talk to your mother (or grandmother) and find out what feminism actually is.
Great Stuff, Lilly!
Because you have to be a challenge to women, in other words you can’t talk to them everyday or every other day, you have to let them miss you a lot, they always have to be second place to work, career, sports, etc… women aren’t very logical, they want a love story. That story includes you always being out with friends and other women, you never ever txting them. In other words its not about her, its about you, your just being nice enough to let her tag along sometimes…. also on dates, keep it light, keep it funny. No… Read more »
I disagree Jay. I don’t need a challenge. I am busy enough. I don’t want a love story or a fairy tale. That’s terribly unrealistic. I throughly expect anyone who likes me to call me. If all you do is text and then it’s only on occasion, then obviously you don’t like me enough and I haven’t the time for someone who isn’t going to put me first when it’s important. That’s a great way to keep a lot of girlfriends, sexual partners and friends, but not good for a serious long term relationship.
Wife in the kitchen, whore in the bedroom. Is that what men want? If we want a relationship, generally no. Nice guy to live with, bad boy to f*ck. Is that what women want? As always, there’s more to these things than what’s on the surface. For example, confidence is attractive to anyone you meet – ‘bad people’ (if there is such a thing) can often be ‘bad’ because they’re thinking of themselves and not considering others. People who don’t care much about what others think aren’t going to struggle in the same way with confidence issues as the ‘nice… Read more »
A couple of problems for nice guys; #1 He thinks he should “Get to know” the girl before making his move, by then nice guy, you’re in the “friend zone”. Also by they time you feel you “know her” well enough to ask her out, one thing you don’t appear is confident. Confidence is the most attractive trait women see in men, and it took you 6 weeks to work up the courage to ask her out. #2 If you’re a “Bad Boy” and she does bad, dirty, nasty things with you, it’s your fault, you’re bad. If you’re a… Read more »
Speaking of ‘friend zone,’ as someone who’s put people there (and been put there), I have a few other things to add. Oftentimes, at least for me, there’s been and awkwardness involved. When I get too close to a friend, he starts to almost feel like a brother, and even if the guy is very attractive and confident, there’s a certain point where it starts to feel weird. Also, when a guy puts you on a pedestal, if you’re an insecure girl (like I have been), you feel like you’ll never be able to measure up to the fantasy the… Read more »
“You, just be your evolved, sharing, giving, communicative self. Eventually you’ll find an amazing woman…”
How long is “eventually”? I’m 38 and haven’t found any yet, or if I did, they didn’t give me the opportunity to find out they were amazing.
As a term, the word “nice” is itself quite broad. What makes a guy nice? Many of the qualities about being nice are things that unversally women tend to prefer. Things like being respectful, generally pleasant and warm. The bad boys can certainly display these characteristics. Where you get to the differences is when you enter into personality traits and a man’s responses to certain things. A bad boy might be more of a turn on sexually because his personality involves more confidence, but that confidence might also cause him to think he’s above extending common courtesy to a woman… Read more »
“why is being nice enough for guys but not when it comes to chicks?”
Who said that. Niceness is one of the biggest things we are looking for. I prefer girls who smile, who are nice, who are sweet and who like to laugh. Why exactly do you think Don married Megan? What never ceases us to surprise men is that many women don’t seem to want this. Why exactly do you think Megan married Don?
I agree kindness is very attractive.
I think it’s more about how we define nice guys and the double standards we place on the genders…why is being nice enough for guys but not when it comes to chicks?
“When was the last time a dude got hard for nice?” http://www.somethingshedated.com/2012/03/do-nice-guys-finish-last.html
Hold up isn’t there an issue now that a lot of women have with men who will take the slightest kind gesture and read something into it that is not there? I know I’ve heard plenty of women complain about guys that took a smile, a gimme gift on a holiday, or a simple “hello” as some weird confirmation that she must be ready to bone.
Hell it seems like being nice is all it takes for a guy to get interested in a woman.
“When was the last time a dude got hard for nice? Girls have to be fit, healthy and adventurous…but ya know…all the while maintaining a kind of fresh faced makeup-less beauty that allows for no faults of DNA. Boys want witty conversation, and upbeat personalities, smart opinions but polite decorum. They want the Princess without the baggage, the President without the power-trip and the Pornstar without the career…they want the pussy without the problems.”
Great quote, especially the first line. And yet, I’m often hearing on here that women are the ones with the overly high standards….
Great quote, especially the first line. And yet, I’m often hearing on here that women are the ones with the overly high standards…. Simple. Both are true and both actually happen. This is one of those cases where evidence of one happening doesn’t indicate that the other is not happening. Just the same way as boys and girls are raised when it comes to intergender hitting. A lot of boys were raised on the strict value of “never hit a girl for any reason, but its okay for girls to hit you”. A lot of girls were raised on the… Read more »
@ Aya
” Great quote, especially the first line. And yet, I’m often hearing on here that women are the ones with the overly high standards….”
I’ve heard many people even women (many who warn their boyfriends and husbands about straying) state that it’s easier for women to get laid than men. If that’s true, women may have higher standards.
That might be just the ideal. Like when young girls dream of marriage with the tall, handsome, powerful and successful man, who will rescue them from danger and shower them with material wealth like the big home.
@ Danny
“Hell it seems like being nice is all it takes for a guy to get interested in a woman.”
I don’t doubt that this happens, but we don’t see it so much because women are taught to be passive in relationships. If women were more aggressive, many women might misinterpret my natural friendliness for flirtation and act upon it. That would indeed bring visibility to the possibility. Being very uncomfortable around sexually aggressive women, you just gave me nightmares and that ain’t easy, since it’s the morning and I’m awake.
I don’t doubt that this happens, but we don’t see it so much because women are taught to be passive in relationships. I’m talking about before relationships. I’m talking about randomly crossing paths on the street, working in the next cubicle over, next to each other in line at the market. I’m told that women are taught that they must be nice and cheery at all times and that that nice and cheerniss is often mistaken asn an invitation of interest. I was just questioning what was said about above about how being nice isn’t enough for a woman to… Read more »
“I think it’s more about how we define nice guys and the double standards we place on the genders…why is being nice enough for guys but not when it comes to chicks?” Confirmation bias. Did you know that surveys of human sexuality in American culture find that approximately 25% of men have 75% of the sex? And the median number of life-time sex partners for a man is seven? (That means that half of men have seven or fewer sex partners in their entire lives.) The image of the serial womanizer banging everything that moves applies to only a small… Read more »
But most men are attracted to the same fundamental traits in women as well. In my experience, 80% of the men pursue 20% of the women and the same is true of women (80% pursuing 20%). I’ve read articles that say that a majority of college women aren’t a part of hookup culture. If you are not at the top of the pyramid, you will have trouble dating.
I have to object to what you’ve said. I imagine that even an average looking woman will have far less trouble dating than even a pretty good looking man. For example, even a mediocre-looking woman on a dating website is going to get TONS of messages. Like I’ve said before, I have a complete profile and I have gotten 7 VISITS in 9 months. I have received 0 messages.
You are right, that is clearly the case on dating sites. Women (particularly young wonen) get swamped with responses. Whether that translates into greater success at finding partners, I don’t know. Women reject a lot of available men, that’s very true. Men are also rejecting a lot of available women. It just seems to me sometimes like there is this large cohort of lonely people who are all chasing a dream.
Of course it is going to translate into greater success! It’s like in sales. More leads == more opportunities == more sales. Are men rejecting a lot of available women? It is almost impossible for me to find examples of men turning down women.
It happens more than you think. I’ve asked guys out a few times in my life, and I’ve been turned down. And I don’t think I’m hideous, but I’m fairly average.
Well, I’m supposedly pretty attractive… or so I’ve been told by numerous older women, and I’ve always been rejected. It’s true I get a lot of women looking at me on the street, but I don’t think that really indicates that they find me attractive.
Yeah, and I’m a 98 lb. librarian/ballerina, who can cook like a demon, tuck her ankles behind her ears, check her own oil, and stop traffic in Paris. I also haven’t been on a date in years. There are no hard and fast rules governing these things.
@ Miss Information
You might want to try asking someone out. A lot of guys will see how wonderful you are and just assume that you must be dating someone. Other guys will be intimidated by your confidence. Even more guys will think you’re out of their league so why bother getting rejected.
@ John That’s sweet, but of all the reasons for my non-existent love life, I don’t think that overwhelming fabulousness is really one of them. I do get asked. My dates forget to show. Guys also forget my name, my phone number, their intentions to e-mail (I’m a very forgettable person). My point isn’t woe is me, why can’t I get a date. I know why perfectly well: jerks like me, I don’t like jerks; I like sweethearts, sweethearts aren’t interested in me (n.b. sweethearts not “nice guys” because there’s a difference). Attraction, love, and sex aren’t mathematical formulas. You… Read more »
Hey, that’s one of my favorite lines….although I just remember Westley (Cary Elwes) saying that.
Absolutely, Sarah, I totally agree. It’s worked out okay for me, though, since I recently met a woman who works in Silicon Valley and hasn’t found a boyfriend for whatever reason. I think she’s just dandy, though. All those guys just don’t know what they’re missing. 🙂
@ Jonathan G
For a while I dated a security specialist who worked in the financial services sector. Since I’m in IT, you’d think we’d be a natural. It might have been a tech’s natural proclivity to seek out the security flaws in a system and a security specialist’s job being to stop that. I’m not saying that you’re not a wonderful catch (why am I feeling like Stiffler), but some of her difficulties may have resulted from her profession. A lot of IT guys are competitive.
There is a problem with the terms I think, if these nice guy weren’t trying to get women to own up to liking “jerks” and “assholes” they would make more progress with what it is they are trying to say.
I think that they could say that women can often prefer a male with some natural dominance and directness about him to a male that uses more covert female type relationship getting techniques such as being nice and helpful in order to initiate a relationship, and they would be more accurate and more women would agree with them.
Frustration and anger often lead to simplistic thinking. One example of simplistic thinking is the false dichotomy. One example of a false dichotomy is when someone reduces all men down to two supposedly opposite categories: nice guys or selfish jerks. In fact there are men who are both and men who are neither. The world does not really follow high school stereotypes. Men do not actually divide into “arrogant jocks” and “nice guy nerds,” however much we want life to be that simple. If you’re trying to go back to re-do high school or you’re drawing lessons about women from… Read more »
Well said on the ‘false dichotomy,’ between nice guy and selfish jerk, wellokaythen. It really makes men seem one-dimensional. It’s rarely as simple as that.
One thing I find interesting is the men who consider themselves ‘nice guys’ and start to put on airs of being ‘assholes,’ based on the behavior they assume is ‘assholish’ in order to get women. So are they still ‘nice guys?’ Are they then ‘assholes’ because of their behavior…or does the intended deception make them actual ‘assholes’ in the end? Was that the endgame then?
@ Aya There are guys who put on a “nice guy” persona to get women because they think it’s what women want. I don’t doubt guys would do it with the “bad boy” persona too. I don’t know that deception itself is sufficient to make someone an asshole. In the case of a 44 year old, true. A 20 year old might simply be foolish and not malicious. In the end, you’ll never be happy being someone else and relationships are work. If you’re not willing to put in the time or effort, it won’t work out “nice guy”, “bad… Read more »
“So it’s better to be an adventurous nice guy, rather than a boring one.”
WHAM! That’s how it should be said! Best way I’ve heard it summed up in one sentence.
The “she said” also made a great point about feeling needed. It’s important to realize how dangerous it is to go after guys who are “in need of repair”. While guys don’t have as much of this danger, we still need to keep our eyes out, too.
Well said, my friend.
If you know who you are and what you have going for yourself, that friendship crap goes out the window.
My concern is why would a man want to try and attract a women from a submissive emotional position in the 1st place. As sexist as it sounds I still think women reserve the right to be the “chick” in the relationship. Emotions are stupid.
Sometimes I think some Nice Guys could use a nice, tall, tasty glass of “Dude, she ain’t all that!”.
“Nice” is not exceptional. “Nice” is barely a descriptor – it’s a bucket term that basically says, “satisfactory but unremarkable.” “Nice” is just something I expect from a potential mate – and I think many women would agree. It’s a quality we value, but it’s not one we go looking for…because what is there to look for? Starting out with “nice” as our top qualifier doesn’t exactly narrow the field much. Instead, we look for, and are attracted to, guys who are interesting, and hope they are also nice. Don’t think of yourself as competing with the jerks; they’ve got… Read more »
Yes, it is so important to have passions in life that don’t involve “hanging around you and hoping I get noticed.” If you are a little shy and geeky, well, work on having cool hobbies. I’ve known many “nice guys” who still get chicks. Their passions (thinking about several guys I know in particular) have included things like repairing old electric guitars and selling them to collectors, organizing charity bike rides, ballroom dancing, improv comedy, and teaching classes on New Age “healing touch” (now there’s a way to get close to people!) It doesn’t really matter what catches your fancy,… Read more »
Good point, Sarah. To embellish a bit on my first post… In the marketing world we talk about having a Differentiator. When you’re trying to sell the same product that all your competitors are trying sell – paper towels, say – you can’t just go out there saying “My paper towels tear off and clean up messes!” Because that’s just what’s expected of them, and that’s something consumers assume any of the other paper towel brands can do too. Instead, you create a paper towel so soft you can blow your nose on it (Viva) or so absorbent you’ll never… Read more »
That still leaves the problem of having to push your product on someone and avoiding being too pushy a salesman so as to not make the potential consumer uncomfortable. Unfortunately, as men we can’t just put our product on the shelf and expect it to sell…
I’m workin on revolutionizing the market. I just post up and look bad. It’s going much slower than anticipated.
You shouldn’t be thinking of it as selling a product, though. The branding analogy just means that you don’t just want to rely on a common quality (“niceness”) as your distinguishing feature. But the point is develop yourself for YOU, first and foremost. Learn who YOU are and focus on doing the things YOU love. It is important to be ethical, compassionate, and kind. I don’t think it’s as important to always be nice. Being “nice” is all about pleasing other people. It’s about burying your own needs to serve others. Instead of worrying about being nice, think about how… Read more »
Well, everyone here knows I’m not comfortable in my own skin, lol. My opinion of myself is anything but glowing. Unfortunately, much of that hinges on my serial failure with women. Much of the value men have as men in society is how they have done with women. You are branded the biggest sort of loser by every group if you’re a man who has been unable to establish a relationship with a woman. It is very difficult to have confidence and comfort in your own skin when the whole world has rejected the notion that you have any value… Read more »
I don’t know what to tell you Collin except you have to break out of that mind set. You have to fight against it every moment you are alive. I’ve read many of your posts I know that you’ve been through a hell of a lot. I had a crappy childhood too, though probably not as bad as yours. Still, it was bad. There was a lot of verbal and emotional abuse. It is a tough legacy to overcome. I tell myself every day that I’m lucky to be alive because I could have easily taken another path: severe mental… Read more »
You’re far more optimistic than I. It is certainly true that given everything, I should probably be dead or a homeless drug addict. With that said, it is hard to look at “not as big a failure as I could be” and see success. I have used the phrase surviving is the hardest part, but that doesn’t change much of anything. It’s really almost impossible going it all alone in life, and that is the fate I have received, unfortunately. Despite all efforts, it seems that I am destined to spend my entire life alone. On the bright side, once… Read more »
I don’t think you are destined to be alone. It sounds like you are someone with many challenges but you are working on yourself and continuing to grow. Eventually you will look back on this part of your life from a better place. I know you don’t believe that now so you can tell me I’m wrong. 🙂
Oh, I believe you. It is just that yesterday would not have been fast enough!
Noooo, Collin…you’re not destined to be alone. No such thing (unless you really want it). Good luck to you. The bitches who turn you down don’t know what they’re missing out on. 😛
I’ll take your word for it!
“Much of the value men have as men in society is how they have done with women.”
I’ve seen this claimed repeatedly, and I just don’t understand where it comes from. Maybe this was the case in high school (MAYBE), but as an adult? No way.
Maybe I just hang out with the wrong crowd, but last I checked a man’s status had way more to do with his education and job than with his love life.
It’s the case with the younger generations. A man’s worth as a 20 something is defined by how many women he’s bedded and how much he’s done with said women.
Steph, I’m 28, and I really don’t think this is the case. Like I said, it very well might have been in high school, but at some point everything changed. By junior year of college, what kind of a job you were going to have after graduation matter a ton (e.g. Did you get that consulting/finance job, or are you stuck doing sales somewhere?) or alternatively where you got into grad school really mattered. I can remember hearing whispers about acceptance letters being spoken with great deference. By contrast, I can’t even remember someone’s “number” being mentioned after freshman year.… Read more »
@ Collin and Jimmy Let me give you guys some of my 35 or so years of experience not that I’m a player, but I’ve been around. It’s easier to approach women and women are more receptive when you’re having fun. Also if you’re having a good time, you’re not really that concerned if you get rejected anyway. Kind of like using liquid courage (alcohol), but you keep your faculties. If you don’t feel comfortable go out with a group of friends. Maybe to a sports bar. You can talk to women about the game or go to an art… Read more »
I’d called “peacocking” in the game community. Wear a purple shirt or a watch the size of a baseball or a freakin robin hood hat.
I wear purple all the time because it is my favorite color. All that does is make people think I’m gay. =(
Well that’s a stereotype. Purple is awesome–one of my two favorite colors. 🙂
@ Collin
Oh crap, I guess Goodwill is going to get a lot of purple clothes. 🙂
Nah. They’re far too nice and expensive to be giving to good will. I have an excellent wardrobe. Unfortunately, being very well dressed plus looking not-so-masculine generally means that everyone in the world instantly assumes I am gay.
This whole ‘have a passion about something and you will attract women’ thing drives me nuts. Some passions will bring you into contact with like-minded people, and some won’t, no matter how passionate you are about them.
Just for the record, Nice Girls are hot but nice doesn’t mean shy, it means kind.
Extrapolate something from that.
Shy can also come off as bitchy and cold, to put that one out there. I’m shy and it takes me a while to warm up to people. People tend to think I’m trying to “act all that” or above it all. I just get nervous and awkward in many social situations unless it’s a very familiar situation, a specific one, or there’s been drinking.
Excellent response right off the bat: why are self-defined “nice guys” attracted to women who are not attracted to them? The question may be more about what’s going on in his head than what’s going on inside women’s heads. I suspect this may be one of those things that’s pretty gender neutral – all sorts of people chase after other people who are not good to them or no good for them. I’m guessing the letter writer knows plenty of women interested in nice guys, but he is just not attracted to those women, for whatever reason. The fact that… Read more »
Well, I agree with you, even though it’s kinda sad.
I always thought emotional drama is like a burning forest’s beauty: it’s kinda nice to watch the flames in TV when you are far, far away; less so when you know it’s near; and it’s, to put it mildly, no fun when the fire is on your doorstep.
Yea, I mean I’ve treated women with respect and decency my entire life and I’ve had wonderful success with them. But I’m no pushover. If a woman crosses the line, we’re done. That said I think disrespect and teasing are totally different things. You need playful banter and to be honest it doesn’t hurt to have a little mystery to you. I think more often than not the term “nice guy” gets confused with “spineless.” You can still be a kind person and treat women with decency without sacrificing your self-respect and values. If you asked my exes they’d probably… Read more »
Problem is how people define “exciting” and “fun”. For some it’s fun to read a good book, go on a ride or sightseeing; for others it’s heavy drinking, “partying” and doing things that only professional stunt man should do.
Better date people with similar tastes, background and temperament or you risk a lot of pain.
Of all kinds.
Women tend to associate kindness with weakness. The rest is just the BS they tell themselves to make that ‘okay’; so that they can rest a little easier at night. Just look at this thread: Some women in it want to change the subject completely – generally to whether male friendship is ‘real’ or not. Others just dismiss this out of hand without any real discussion at all; making up petty justifications that equate men to roller-coasters or other objects that exist solely for their entertainment. For a group of people that pride themselves on being against sexism, I get… Read more »
I made the roller coaster comment, but I wasn’t saying that women see men as roller coasters, I was saying that EVERYBODY wants fun and excitement in their lives. So do men!! Why do men often prefer hot girls who are manipulative psychos over boring, stable, nice, but not-so-hot girls? Because it’s more exciting. It’s more fun. Wouldn’t you rather see life as an adventure, and look for someone to share the adventure with you? Actually I was trying to make a positive comment, in that a Nice Guy does not have to stop being a nice, good, considerate person… Read more »
“Why do men often prefer hot girls who are manipulative psychos over boring, stable, nice, but not-so-hot girls?”
Because they’re hot. I’ll take a stable, nice, hot girl please. Hold the boring.
Can you see where women are coming from!?
I went to a bar last weekend where the ratio of women to men was borderline insane. There were about 15 women to every one guy in there. I was surprised that they weren’t approaching guys like crazy with the odds stacked so heavily against them.
Actually women may feel even more inhibited in that kind of environment because there are so many other women around watching how they behave with the few available guys.
You shouldn’t have been surprised. Women approaching men is still a huge taboo in a very large sector of American society. Few women even think to challenge it; even fewer have the courage required to actually walk up to a man that interests them and start talking.
“I’m worried I’ll seem desperate” is the usual comment–which should tell you something about how they view the men who approach them.
Ahh, it’s a messed-up society we live in…..
“Which should tell you something about how they view the men who approach them.” I was with you until you added this bit. I think because our society has placed gender onto approaching someone romantically, it means that a woman could worry she will appear desperate without viewing the same behaviour in a man as desperate. It’s a bit like this – if men are the ones who are expected to make the first move, how desperate does a woman have to be to subvert that norm and make the first move herself? If she’s making the first move, it… Read more »
Not to mention if she makes the first move (and goes above and beyond the comfort zone of other women, she may be viewed as a threat by other women for having something in her dating arsenal they don’t) then women (or men) may be calling her a slut.
And if she gets turned down, she is now a loser slut.
That’s a good point, John D. I was trying to put myself into that situation and be honest about how I would act. I would definitely be afraid of what all of the other women were thinking even moreso than the man I might approach. I would definitely walk away feeling like everyone was looking at me as a loser slut. I have made first moves privately and in the physical sense of things, but there’s something about a bar situation full of other girls that would keep me to myself.
Honestly, I originally came onto these boards to argue. However, I have grown up a little too and have a lot more empathy for women and their straight jacket than I did before. The biggest hang-up I have is that women don’t see that men are just as bound to their role. Whereas women are shamed and castigated for taking action, men are shamed and castigated for NOT taking action (walking away from a fight, not adhering strictly to the male role to self-sacrifice for others). What seems like a lot more freedom of men’s choices (to women) are not… Read more »
Yea I know. I wasn’t *really* surprised because I know that many women would never even consider approaching a guy. For the record I got hit on by one girl but I turned her down because I didn’t like the way she approached me. I just think it was kind of ridiculous that most of those girls were probably looking to meet guys and saw that there were only a few of us very eligible bachelors 😉 but they still refused to make the first move. Like what’s my motivation to chase after these chicks when there are so freakin… Read more »
“For the record I got hit on by one girl but I turned her down because I didn’t like the way she approached me.” This is interesting. This is why a lot of women turn down men. Until every one is approaching their fair share (I for one have approached about 75% of the time) things will stay this jacked up.
To clarify, this girl came over and gave me a glowstick and then told me to go give it back to another girl. Then the second girl started telling me that the first girl really wanted to talk to me.
Me: “She looks busy talkin to that guy.”
Girl #2: “Do you really *want* her to be talking to him??”
Me: “I don’t really care.”
Girl #2 freaked out and ran over to get her friend
Seriously, don’t play games. If she had just walked up and said hi I probably would have been interested.
Couldn’t agree more.
Sounds like a female attempt at PUA. 🙂
I’m glad you and Julie agree.
Difference being however if two guys were doing this it would be PUA or Game and be derided but in this case its just “playing games” and is considered nowhere near as taboo.
A woman once sent her cousin (who was a guy) to let me know that she was interested in me. After I told him that I would be interested, she came over and introduced herself. I think that women don’t feel comfortable making the initial contact and so they cover it as something else. Women aren’t as used to handling rejection so they send an advanced scout.
I wish I had that sort of luxury!
“For the record I got hit on by one girl but I turned her down because I didn’t like the way she approached me. ”
And now she’s probably one of the many women who think that, because she got turned down once, guys don’t like it when women approach them.
Funny isn;t it?
Man we internalize waaaaaaay too much. And also need lessons all of us on how to flirt, apparently.
I really hope not. She was a cute girl, she just didn’t show enough interest. In this modern day “rape-culture” with girls “creep-shaming” left and right to try to improve their social value, I rarely hit on girls. And especially with the huge amount of single women my age and the scarce number of eligible men, the onus is really on them.
I just don’t think they see it that way 😉
Sarah writes: “I made the roller coaster comment, but I wasn’t saying that women see men as roller coasters, I was saying that EVERYBODY wants fun and excitement in their lives. So do men!! Why do men often prefer hot girls who are manipulative psychos over boring, stable, nice, but not-so-hot girls?” I agree with Jimmy. Men prefer hot girls because it fires the pleasure centers of our brains to look at, converse with, caress, kiss, have sex with and orgasm with beautiful women more than simply cute, fair, average, or below average women. I remember reading an article about… Read more »
I read 50 Shade of Gray, well, about 2/3 if it (its really poorly written) and the guy is actually very kind and nurturing toward the female character, despite the fact that he’s a “dom” sexually.
And just to be clear, I think it ‘s a stupid book. But I don’t think it’s evidence that “women like jerks” because the guy in the book is not a jerk. Why this book has caught on with so many women is an interesting question (I couldn’t get past the atrocious writing) but I don’t think you can boil it down to jerks vs. non-jerks. But go read it though and draw your own conclusions!
I haven’t read the book, but in the doctor Oz episode there was a feminist detractor who stated the male character exhibited all the classical relationship techniques of a serial abuser (i.e. cutting her off from friends & family, under-cutting her self esteem etc..). I am going by that detractor’s enterpretation of the book. I’m not necessarily going to argue what percentage of women like jerks. And I don’t have any clear scientific evidence, however there does seem to be a strong subset of women who are as addicted to jerks (regardless of the jerks physical traits–in other words they… Read more »
Well as I said in a previous comment, some people are addicted to adrenaline. Guys with “jerky” qualities can be thrilling to be around, unfortunately, because of their mystery, excitement, and the sense of challenge. There are also women who have emotional problems and seek out self destructive relationships. There are women who grew up with dads who were jerks so they are repeating a childhood pattern. There are women who love drama in relationships. Also, as I’ve said in several comments, what many “nice guys” think women want actually comes across all wrong. I mean, imagine if you had… Read more »
I’m not necessarily asking for a defense of the rules of attraction for (a good chunk) of women, but an admission that it is the case. Men as a gender take a lot of knocks for their addiction to beauty. I’m not going to defend it or judge it–it just is. Same for women. Let’s just admit that the rules for attraction of women are behavior rather than looks and this can be just as self-destructive to women, as addiction to looks is for men. My point is that you’re right we shouldn’t put women on a pedestal. One of… Read more »
Soooooo close to being problematic, and then you had to go and use a bunch of qualifiers, John (a lot of women, many women, some men, etc). Thanks for making it so I can’t rant and rave about generalizations about women. 😉 lol. Alright so for the serious bit: I think a lot of people (gay, straight, male, female, whatever) like mates who are a bit rebellious. So I think one of the ways that manifests is in some women picking ass-hatty men…because being ass-hatty is going against social norms. There’s also the fact that a lot of people think… Read more »
Actually John I’m very positive about nice guys. I’m a pretty geeky girl, I live in Silicon Valley, and I know dozens of nice guys who never seem to get girlfriends. Most of them are frustrated, sad and confused about it. I don’t agree with the idea that they are all selfish jerks in sheep’s clothing. I think sometimes on the Interwebs there is a tendency for women bloggers and commenters to get angry at the constant complaints from male bloggers and commenters that “women only like jerks, you b@tiches, wah” and they turn it around and accuse nice guys… Read more »
“Another problem is that many stereotypical “nice guys” seem conflicted about their sexuality and have difficulty presenting themselves to women as sexual beings.” I hear this a lot, but no one ever says what it is. How, exactly, are you open and presenting yourself as a sexual person without being called a creep or being considered too forward, or too aggressive, or presumptuous, or any other number of things. This is one of the problems with feminism. Feminism persecutes men and basically tells us that we are not, under any circumstances, allowed to present as a sexual individual unless a… Read more »
Also, my point about roller coasters is that NOBODY likes to be in a relationship that is BORING. Excitement can be positive or negative but many people prefer negative excitement over no excitement at all, though positive excitement is better, it is often hard to find.
Sarah,
You may look at new relationships in this fashion. But long term relationships (if they involve respect) are eventually going to get boring as there is nothing left to discover about the other person.
This video kind of covers it in a hilarious fashion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6X0Qqxx3f0
Soulite writes:
“A whole lot of them sound like you really do want to be objects that get acted upon; like they expect men to come along and make their boring little lives into some grand adventure.”
It’s interesting that you mention that. In Steve Byrne’s Byrne Identity concert he talks about all the disney princess movies that basically teach girls they don’t have to look for love “love will come find your ass”.
The whole concert is pretty funny.