I enjoyed reading this post titled “You Can Get Laid Without Being A Jerk” over at Jezebel, and it’s also been published at the Good Men Project.
It’s a nice piece and makes a rather solid point: that it is not necessary to be aggressive, dishonest, manipulative, or generally unpleasant in order to have sex with anyone. This should, to my mind, be advice on par with “You don’t have to write your homework in gopher blood, you can use a pen” but apparently a lot of people still need to hear it.
Why do you suppose that is? Why do so many people take for granted that the only way to make any kind of personal sexual connection is to be, essentially, a lousy person? What about that notion makes it so persistent?
“I get the sense that wearing something that has been laundered recently counts for them, which looks kinda gender-stereotypey to me.”
It counts for me too.
I don’t need to put huge effort in my outfit because I’m going grocery shopping. I’m likely to be in a jeans and a t-shirt, bra-less, with my hair half-brushed with my hands (but it works wonders with my length), make-up less, in sneakers.
That’s not a big effort, because I made similar efforts pre-transition (read: none) for daily stuff.
Both men and women would be cold in those clothes. Unless you mean to slut-shame, which I have no tolerance for, I don’t see anything unfair about that at all. Where do you get slut shaming from that? Did you not read the words that came after? What I meant was that the women near universally seem to make an attempt to look attractive for the guys, going so far as to wear outfits that are ill-advised for the weather to look good, while the guys don’t seem to make a similar effort (or any effort at all). I get… Read more »
Thread Hop: @Ramesses 3:15: I should’ve made this explicit, but I assumed all the traits were supposed to be negative things. So your friend who laughs loudly may well be nice, because loud isn’t generally a bad thing at all unless it’s mean. Horniness is also not bad unless you’re creepy about it, and being creepy about it is also not nice. Also: It gets cold up here, and the clothes they wear don’t look like they provide much protection from the elements. Meanwhile, the guys wear tees, jeans, and a ball cap… Both men and women would be cold… Read more »
Also, I consider “friendzone” to be a sexist concept, made to basically blame a woman for not being attracted to you. Even if that’s not how it’s meant to be, that’s how it’s used, given the whole “nice guy(tm)” thing.
I’d probably be considered a Nice Guy(tm) by most because while I reject nice guy-ism, I don’t concede the point to the other side either. In other words, yeah, nice guys are entitled little shits who need to harden the fuck up, but why is it that women think that it’s so horrible for their tastes and preferences to be scrutinized and second guessed, just as a mans is? I’ve seriously seen this argument before, a female blogger acting like the worst thing a nice guy could do is disagree with her preference for bad boys. Way I see it,… Read more »
@Ozymandias42: Thanks for the link. Even though I’m bitter and jaded about it, I appreciate any concern for silly old me by anyone who doesn’t even know. Really. I do. But I think the problem here is on an even more basic level. As any therapist or counselor probably would say, the very first step is to accept that the situation poses a problem, and that you have to *want* to do something about it. Anything short of that is doomed to failure, and any person that enters any of the “programs” above with an “whatever…” attitude to sex, is… Read more »
@Ramesses, Thanks for your analysis which I think is spot on, both about my girlfriend and about the article. My guess is also that she just doesn’t think about sex and therefore it’s not a priority for her. She doesn’t dislike sex, she just starts to like it when it’s up and running. Hence the comments about wanting to do it more often, but not doing anything in the direction of making it so. Which leaves me pretty much out in the cold for wanting to be lusted over (as a sexual person) and have some initiatives or even enthusiastic… Read more »
But that hardly means men actually like unwanted approaches, stalking, or rape when it happens to them in the real world. I think we can say, almost tautologically, that no-one likes unwanted approaches. Still, on the few occasions it has happened to me, it was hardly a cause for complaint either. Whether it becomes wanted depends in great measure to the manner in which it is done, even as much as who’s doing it. Generally it’s been variations on this script: Her: I’d just thought I’d come over and say hi! Me: Hi! Her: um… Apparently at this point she… Read more »
Oops, when I said “Yet that’s now I think”, it should be “Yet that’s not how I think”.
@AB, Out of curiosity, how many of those women said they would like to be asked, but reported being turned off by a guy asking them? I don’t recall any cases like that. Then why have you proposed in the past that men should not trust what women say they want, but ask other men instead? I don’t think I’ve ever said anything so crude. I may have suggested that men’s view of what women respond to may be more useful in dating than women’s self-reports about their preferences. This doesn’t mean that we should throw everything women say about… Read more »
“Compromising This advice simply fails for the same reason as the scheduling advice. Who wants unenthusiastic sex? And the type of libido mismatch she describes is farther from what people typically have a problem with. Think more along the lines of “once a month or less” partnered with “three to four times a week or more” or “never initiates and rarely accedes” paired with “always initiates and almost always rejected.” Some gulfs are simply too large to be bridged by compromise.” You CAN agree to have sex, where you get less out of it, as a way to please your… Read more »
FlyingKal She very likely doesn’t dislike sex, which is why she hasn’t said she dislikes it. I suspect sex simply isn’t a priority for her, either in general or specifically with you. If it’s the latter, it’s quite possible she doesn’t know the difference, and won’t know the difference until she meets some guy that really turns her crank. Ozy I generally like Greta’s writing, but I found that piece to be terribly naïve. It reads to me as if it were written by someone who hasn’t lived the experience, and is coming up with a number of solutions that… Read more »
Greta Christina offers some advice for people in your situation, FlyingKal, here: http://gretachristina.typepad.com/greta_christinas_weblog/2010/07/mismatched-libidos-can-mixed-marriages-ever-work.html. I hope it’s a little help, at least…
Ramesses, “I didn’t say break up because of lack of sex.” I said that I don’t have the energy anymore to go through the motions of trying to seduce her, to which you replied “You should end your relationship then.” But fair enough, my bad. 😉 But I’d like to go back and clear out a few things about your earlier post, “I’d encourage you to try and inhabit her point of view, even if it seems foreign or perhaps wrong to you. How might she feel about having to reject you so often? How might the pressure to have… Read more »
I didn’t say break up because of lack of sex. I said you should break up when the resentment and frustration start consuming the happier parts of your relationship.
@Hugh Tipping Ristik: “@AB, There were a few women in the PlentyOfFish thread I linked to above who said that they preferred not being asked, but also reported that they had responded positively to a guy who had asked in the past. So yes, there could be some weak doubt towards whether these women really dislike being asked as much as they say. There is also some weak doubt towards the women who say that they do prefer being asked.” Out of curiosity, how many of those women said they would like to be asked, but reported being turned off… Read more »
“I’d encourage you to try and inhabit her point of view, even if it seems foreign or perhaps wrong to you. How might she feel about having to reject you so often? How might the pressure to have sex impact her desire?” Oh, I’ve tried, trust me. I think we have talked more about sex than actually done it over time. She says that on a general level, yes she wants to have sex. With me 🙂 But we just can’t seem to go from theory to practice, because when I ask it’s like she always has this gut reaction… Read more »
I, too, want enthusiastic consent. But how can I get that if I can’t even get some kind of interest or (verbal) approval that I’m “hot”, or the least bit attractive in any way? That does tie back in to the original article, does it not? The author writes, “Are those ‘yesses’ less frequent than the non-committal, hesitant ‘not-nos?’ Yeah, they are, but it’s worth it to know that the people you’re fooling around with really want to fool around with you, too.” There’s the rub, isn’t it? Enthusiastic consent may very well mean less sex for you, which is… Read more »
@Ramesses (September 30, 2011 at 1:22 pm) “I think the answer to that question is going to be highly dependent on the individual. Some might be relieved that the pressure is off, some might worry about what it means for the relationship, some might feel a little of both. It’s also difficult to disentangle libido mismatches from passivity. Is it really the case that your partner only wants sex once a quarter or is it a matter of them being disinterested if they have to play the role of initiator? You describe the sex as “dull” in your scenario –… Read more »
@Ozy, Ack! No! Misunderstanding! When I claimed that jerk-dating was equally common among all genders, I was making a claim that the incidence of people dating genuine non-performative assholes is similar between all genders within my sample set, and that other evidence (the frequency of women complaining about dating jerks and men complaining about dating that crazy bitch) suggests that this is a common trend throughout the dating pool. Ok, I didn’t realize that you were talking about your particular sample set. And yes, it does suggest things about the larger dating pool, but due to the lack of representativeness,… Read more »
What Thomas said. @AB, There were a few women in the PlentyOfFish thread I linked to above who said that they preferred not being asked, but also reported that they had responded positively to a guy who had asked in the past. So yes, there could be some weak doubt towards whether these women really dislike being asked as much as they say. There is also some weak doubt towards the women who say that they do prefer being asked. With doubt on both sides, there is no reason to think that the percentages are skewed one way rather than… Read more »
@Thomas: “Case 2) is not controversial, stated preference and experience match. I would argue Hugh’s kissing example fits case 2).” That would be highly dependant on how many of those men have actually asked, and how they were asking (often, not asking can help mask insecurity by seeming decisive, but that doesn’t mean it’s the lack of asking itself which makes a difference). Also, I have heard accounts of women who thought it would completely break the mood if a guy asked, but when it actually happened to them, they found it quite pleasant. This fits Hugh’s original argument, that… Read more »
@BH Try and tackle my list of what someone needs to do to qualify as nice for me – and it’s ALL of that, not just parts. Notice that physical looks isn’t even there, and that someone who has all that won’t necessarily get laid, or not get laid. But this is why I find niceness attractive, not “nothing else to say”. Reposting it: “It means generally non-violent unless demanded of the activity (boxing , tae kwan do, BDSM), unprejudiced for stuff you know about*, gender egalitarian (even if you want D/s relationships, this is fine), and willing to accept… Read more »
Excuse me, but aren’t you the Hugh Ristik who once claimed that women were not to be trusted in the area of self-report? And now you want to take women’s word for it women they say they don’t want men to ask them? Oversimplified there are two cases: 1) Many women report they prefer XY. Many men disagree. It doesn’t match their experience that many women prefer XY. 2) Many women report they prefer XY. Many men agree. Case 1) is controversial because the experience of the men doesn’t match the self reported preference of the women. Now we can… Read more »
BlackHumorWait, I can’t be both nice and extremely horny? Or are you saying my extreme horniness isn’t a way I can make the date go bad? And what of my friend who is sweet, kind, smart, funny, intelligent and LOUD? Usually the LOUD part is her laughing, but it also comes out when she’s really passionate about something. What of Hugo Schwyzer, who seems to have been both nice and narcissistic (by his own report) and yet appears to have been quite successful at dating? I guess what I’m really saying is I didn’t quite understand the point you were… Read more »